History or Travesty, Health Care Reform Becoming a Reality
The Congressional Budget Office has got the Democrats excited over their “scoring” of the manager’s amendment because they report it actually lowers the deficit some:
The CBO said that the final legislation, unveiled Saturday by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, would cost $871 billion over the next 10 years and reduce the deficit by $132 billion over the same period. That’s more than the first Senate bill had cost.
Roughly 31 million people would receive new coverage under the legislation.
AdvertisementThe final Senate bill will cost more than the 2,074-page bill first unveiled by Reid last month. The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) said that bill would cost $848 billion over 10 years.
That’s not too bad, is it? It wouldn’t be except the Democrats are using smoke and mirrors to make the bill appear better than it is. Writes the Heritage Foundation’s James Capretta at the NRO’s Critical Condition blog:
For starters, as CBO notes, the bill presumes that Medicare fees for physician services will get cut by more than 20 percent in 2011, and then stay at the reduced level indefinitely. There is strong bipartisan opposition to such cuts. Fixing that problem alone will cost more than $200 billion over a decade, pushing the Reid plan from the black and into a deep red.
Then there are the numerous budget gimmicks and implausible spending reductions. The plan’s taxes and spending cuts kick in right away, while the entitlement expansion doesn’t start in earnest until 2014, and even then the real spending doesn’t begin until 2015. According to CBO, from 2010 to 2014, the bill would cut the federal budget deficit by $124 billion. From that point on, it’s essentially deficit neutral — but that’s only because of unrealistic assumptions about tax and Medicare savings provisions. By 2019, the entitlement expansions to cover more people with insurance will cost nearly $200 billion per year, and grow every year thereafter at a rate of 8 percent. CBO says that, on paper, the tax increases and Medicare cuts will more than keep up, but, in reality, they won’t. The so-called tax on high cost insurance plans applies to policies with premiums exceeding certain thresholds (for instance, $23,000 for family coverage). But those thresholds would be indexed at rates that are less than health-care inflation — forever. And so, over time, more and more plans, and their enrollees, would bump up against it until virtually the entire U.S. population is enrolled in insurance that is considered “high cost.”
Nice trick if you can pull it off, and the Democrats are prepared to do it.
The reaction of many liberal Democrats is a lot of grumbling over the strictures on abortion and a lack of a “robust” public option. But they are making no bones about the idea that once health care reform is a reality, they are going to start tinkering with it almost immediately in order to get it “just right.”
It seems a fait accompli that the House-Senate conference to hash out the remaining issues will be difficult but doable now that Majority Leader Reid and Speaker Pelosi have shown that they are willing to use as much taxpayer money as it will take to bribe, cajole, and sweeten the pot for individual members. The momentum for passage appears irreversible and it seems likely that sometime before the president’s State of the Union message, he will have his “Pyrrhic victory.”
[N]ever before has so unpopular a piece of major legislation been jammed through on a party-line vote. This week, Rasmussen showed 57% of voters nationwide saying that it would be better to pass no health care reform bill this year instead of passing the plan currently being considered by Congress, with only 34% favoring passing that bill. 54% of Americans now believe they will be worse off if reform passes, while just 25% believe they’ll be better off. Making the 2010 elections a referendum on health care should work–if Republicans don’t let up in the debate over the next year.
Those numbers won’t change anytime soon. But since most of the big changes are years away, it is likely that the health care issue will fade into the background and some other “historic” piece of legislation will come to the fore.
History or travesty, it won’t matter. It’s all about change. As for the companion to change in the Obama mantra, we might take heed of the sign over hell in Dante’s Divine Comedy when thinking of the doors to the Capitol:
“All hope abandon ye who enter here.”
Mr. Moran,
Can you help me out regarding a few questions I have about this health-care “reform”?
(1) Can we afford it?
(2) If “No” on (1), is it going to bankrupt the country?
(3) If the deficit keeps on going up and if we are approaching or sink into bankruptcy, won’t the welfare state be unsustainable even at its present level? I mean, if we don’t have the money to fund it, then isn’t that it?
Am I missing something? To any on the left reading this post, I’m not being a wiseass. All this spending is scaring the crap out of me. Should I not be scared? How does borrowing and printing all this money make any sense?
Thanks.
The betrayal is complete. Ben Nelson of Nebraska. Joseph Lieberman of Connecticut. Names that won’t go down in history because they’ll soon be taking such a beating at the ballot box. The Democratic Party just sealed a dirty deal to gave one sixth of the economy to Harry Reid and his assassins. Their objective: Socialize Medicine. Bankrupt morals. Ditto the country. Spread dependency. Assassinate the ideals on which this nation was founded.
Behind closed doors they did their dirty work; agreeing on StealthCare. With transparency, they knew the people could scare some moderate Democrats away. But with doors locked and nothing more concrete than a blank sheet of paper, these miscreants have pledged to Stalinize, unionize, Leninize America with an unconstitutional piece of universally toxic garbage that won’t hit the rotting stage till its gestation period is over, around 2013. Until then, all this monstrosity of a bill will do is tax the living daylights out of the American people.
Would never tax the middle class Obama promised. And Hitler promised his genius would last for 1,000 years. And in seven bloody years, the health of the mother land turned terminal.
For Judus, the price for treason was thirty pieces of silver. Sen. Blanche Lincoln. Senator Mary Landrieu. Ben Nelson. What price, capitulation? In their hearts, I believe they know right from wrong. But something else in their inner selves proved stronger. Characters with no character? Integral figures in the passage of StealthCare without enough integrity to do what was right? Seems to me that’s about the size of it.
Let’s face it, though, the fence sitting Democrats were always there for the taking. The only question was the size of the price. And now that’s been set; selling their votes for socialized medicine; causing at the least a wounded country. At worst, a country on life support.
Vote numbers 58,59 and today, 60. Sealed and delivered in a brown paper bag like pieces of smut; intended to please the parasitic pathology of the brown eyed handsome man.
These Democrats who are savaging America, trying to rip its very fabric to shreds, often I wonder if they know what they’re doing. Is it as simple as a case of group think gone very wrong? Simple avarice? Picked on in high school?; no date to the senior prom? Always the last picked when sides were chosen?
Harry Reid.
Can you see him fitting that category? Easier to imagine than a piece of apple pie.
Nancy Pelosi? Does she have a poison well inside of her the size of Peoria? What made Joe Lieberman drink from it?
Permit me to take you back to 1836?
When 189 Americans, for something invisible yet definable, gave up their lives in a small mission. Names like Bowie, Crockett, Houston were at the Alamo. But I suspect no Lieberman. Safe snug in his bed.
To me, these 189 Americans were the polar opposite of those Americans who succombed to Harry Reid’s bribes. Nelson. Lieberman, Landrieu and the other sorry examples for our children to follow. Deserve nothing short of the Congressional medal of moral turpitude.
The news of the treachery is so new that the Drudge Report has yet to blare it in a banner headline.
Regardless, the battle is joined. The fight for the soul of America is on. Maybe in the end it will be a case of who wants it most. Independence or dependence. America as we knew it or Americans who never before knew the Capitol building could be ground zero for domestic terrorism.
No longer can I give them the benefit of the doubt. For I feel in my gut they’re out to harm our children’s children. We cannot rely on people out of balance with freedom and liberty to guide this nation’s direction anymore. Maybe when Barack Obama put one too many avowed communists, one too many tax cheats, one too many domestic terrorists inside his inner sanctum; maybe that’s when my inner self drew my line in the sand. What drove me to type out this soul-baring note to friends and enemies I know not? Maybe it’s about the amount of destruction, unconstitutional destruction they’re causing.
Like the locusts of 1932 wouldn’t stop no matter how much damage they did to the land, the Reids, Pelosi’s and Obama’s of the world, in alliance with the frail inner will of the last few capitulating Democrats, seem to have a PacMan like determination to lay waste to the land of the free, to the land of the duped.
ObamaCare somewhere along the way turned into StealthCare. Nobody as yet has seen the final Bill. The three trillion dollar boondoggle. In truth, it’s yet to be written. Yet, just hours ago it was tacitly passed by foes of freedom and foe enablers. Who are now in joyous celebration. Who as a group are this minute basking in the glow of evil triumph. Who have succeeded by hooks, crooks, carrots, bribes and lies to endanger our nation’s financial health like a new violent virus. The death of a health care system based on private medical coverage may only be a matter of time. Slaughtered like the unborn by those who couldn’t care less about our nation’s well being and couldn’t care more about their fat cat status.
We know their names. And what else they’re committed to; killing our most vulnerable. Spending our tax dollars and stuffing them into each other’s bank accounts. It’s all a pitiable part of Harry Reid’s last gasp for complete socialistic control. A very profitable gasp at that. They hate the profit system, but love profiting from its demise.
Just like Bill Ayers literally did on the cover of Chicago magazine a few years back, these Democrats are figuratively stomping on our flag and the American Dream. In the process, desecrating the constitution; placing chains of enslavement on our system of free enterprise.
The StealthCare battle, it hurts me to say, they’ve won.
But the war is still up for grabs because it’s the American people they’ve so totally lost. When it’s the American
people described in an inauguration years ago who’ll fight any fight, bear any burden. Those types.
For the other types, Reid, Lieberman, Pelosi, Nelson, Obama, I have a message.
You haven’t just awoken a sleeping giant with your sneak attack on America. You’ve taken your political careers and sent them sailing into the trash heap of history, where only the silence of failure will be there to comfort your remains for eternity.
Your train, our train wreck, stops in 2010. And in 2012, every one of you will be kicked out government’s door. A footnote to socialism turned inside out, like those coats that can be worn both ways; and revealing your very fascist nature.
Where you may wonder will your street care to desire finally stop? Well, while you won’t find it on any schedule, we do have a name for it, one that all of you Democrats will become very familiar with.
It’s called the end of the line.
Gus Hall said it: “Socialism will come to America through the ballot box”.
They haven’t won yet, Rachel. It still has to get through conference. But regardless: We HAVE to get the House back next November. And crapweasel Republicans like Bill Young of FL and other assorted appropriators need to be shown the door. If we take the House, this crap can be defunded. “Anhilitated in detail”, if you will. Defund the butthole bureaucrats that would run this montrosity. I doubt they’ll work for free for very long.
The hippie movement and the legalization of obscenity changed the country so much that it no longer exists. It’s on a downward path where up is down, with an arrogant hard left government that is insane and regards sane people with contempt.
When the new taxes go into effect the Democrats are going to find out just what a fools erand they are on. Rick is right, there will be lots of revelations that will slither out as the bill is reviewed and the manager’s amendment is sifted through.
Conservatives are in the best position we have been in in years. In just 11 months the Democrats have handed us a cornucopia of mismanagement and issues to bludgeon them with for the next 11 months until the election. It will get worse too. There will be further economic deterioration. The Democrats have no basic understanding of how an economy works.
They will rue the day they ever touched this healthcare issue.
At 830 AM, Sunday 20 December 2009 Senator Webb still hasn’t released any statement as to whether or not he will support cloture and final passage of this bill.
Does that mean that Obama and Reid are saying to Senator Webb, “Don’t screw with us Junior!” at the same time they’ve shoved it to the entire Commonwealth of Virginia as payback for the gubernatorial election?
People better wake up and do something quick. Obama and the Democrat controlled 111th Congress are as brutal, cunning and ruthless as they come.
If they are not stopped soon you will have no power left.
We Three Kings of (the) Ordinary Are
Obama, Reid and Pelosi.
Merry Christmas
Suckers
The only thing worse than the communists are the whore’s who service them. I hope Ben Nelson enjoys being on this knees.
I am not convinced it’s over yet.
In the first place, I don’t think the conference bill will be the piece of cake some folks think it will. On the one hand, you have the committed lefties in the House who demand a public option, and on the other hand you have people like Joe Lieberman in the Senate who demand that there not be one. One of them is gonna have to cave, and I’m not sure that either one will. Then there’s the abortion debate, the House bill was nearly shut down because of it, and Nelson’s fig leaf is hardly going to satisfy them.
And let’s not forget that conference bills can be filibustered in the Senate.
The biggest problem for the Dems, tho, is that they’ve been twisting themselves into knots trying to keep this issue out of the news in 2010 lest it screw up their electoral chances even more than it already has. They seem to be hoping that if it’s not in the news next year, people will forget about it. However, as it stands right now, it’s all but certain that it will be in the news, especially if Fox News, talk radio, and blogs like this one (and my own humble effort) keep talking about it.
We may be in the 7th inning, but we can still win this one for the Gipper (forgive me mixing my metaphors) if we fight hard.
At least six senators need to be charged with soliciting a bribe, like Illinois’s Blago. They are named here and should be soon in prison:
http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber/archives/6254
it is a historical travesty.
To my knowledge, we have yet to see the bill. Even the CBO hasn’t seen the bill they are about to vote on. This is suicide for the Country and for the Democrats.
We have to rattle the walls of congress as they have never before been rattled.
They are ignoring the will of the people they represent.
They are rushing this through because they don’t want to fact their constituents before voting on it.
They are ignoring the limits of the Constitution with the health care mandates claimed to be in this bill
This is a greater threat to this nation than Al Qieda has ever been.
The Democratic Party is going to be politically obliterated in the 2010 mid-term elections; the obliteration will continue in 2012, 2014, 2016 until ObamaCare is DEAD. Ben Nelson is a two-bit whore sellout & he will be forced to retire in 2012. The Democrats are giving away the keys to kingdom with their naked Communism power grabs. But what happens when you lose the power & Republicans regain control? The Democrats will freak out even more. Get the popcorn ready. It’s not over by a long shot.
Rick Moran, you need to go hide under Sarah Palin’s dress to find your courage instead of this constant pessimism; however, this is what John McCain moderation gets you: screwed by the pooch. Bring plenty of lube or it’s going to hurt.
I think what is happening in government is that we have elected too many people who don’t know right from wrong. I saw this happening in the sixties with the young people and how they raised the following generations. They are not immoral, they just don’t know any better.
It seems that Senators Landrieu and Nelson have learned what every long-time member of the Liars Club knows: it pays to go last.
The obscenity that will likely be visited upon America (under the guise of health-care “reform”) will nevertheless be very, very good to them — and their back-home constituents.
See: First-Liar Blues http://bereapundit.com/2009/12/20/first-liar-blues/
The Democrats don’t just need to be defeated in 2010 1n 2012, they need to be crushed and driven from the field forever. I will not become a wage slave to the federal government or to the Democrats parasitic constituents. This means war. Obama, the Democrats, and those that voted for these Marxists need to be punished.
And BTW how the heck can this stand up to the Supreme Court? It’s unconstitutional.
Did anyone really believe that either Lieberman or Nelson would vote against this monstrosity? A couple of Mr Nice Guys truly concerned about healthcare in America. I think not.
“including a weird 10% tax to be paid by customers of indoor tanning salons. Why stick it to tanning customers?”
Now we know why John Boehner is so opposed to healthcare reform.
Ladies and gentlemen may I suggest an appropriate and tactile way of expressing our feeling to those in charge of the health care debacle. Someone with organizing ability needs to set up a fund to purchase Chicken manure to be delivered to the steps of the Crapital on the day lawmakers come back from recess. If everyone who opposes single payer and abortion on demand paid for by All, paid 20 dollars I think we could get a fair about of chicken crap. (there are several in the Va. area, so delivery shouldn’t be an issue)
Oh and it really stinks, reeks, smells worse than skunk flavored Limburger Cheese. If that doesn’t get their attention than all that’s left is to recall, recall, recall, which may be a better idea in the long run.
Unwanted, un-American and unaffordable… but it makes Democrats feel good, so screw our nation and well-being for that.
13. justasimplepatriot:
“Even the CBO hasn’t seen the bill they are about to vote on.”
Odd . . . are you sure? You should check. And remember, the CBO is “the non-partisan gold standard” for such analysis, according to Sean Hannity. Really, you should check. They got a website you know.
I’m with Mr Shaw. I’m sick of the counsels of despair: It’s over, get used to it, abandon all hope. The Democrats are fools if they think this cannot be undone, likewise those on the right who are throwing in the towel. It can be undone and it will be undone. The foolish Donks have awakened the sleeping giant and this will not be over until the streets run red with their electoral blood.
Its the Economy,
Stupid Leftists:
When times are good,
you can shear the sheepish
voters down to the skin;
When times turn hard, and
you don’t stop at the skin,
you end up with no flock,
and little tiny hoofprints
all over your aching body
Why focus on the things you perceive to be problems? Shun the negative. Be optimistic. It’s a beautiful sunny day. There’s an invigorating snap to the air. We’re in the season of celebrating the birth of our Lord and Savior Jesus H. Christ. (The H is for Heaven!)
Life is short, my wonderful patriotic friends, and precious, oh so precious. It would be a shame to spend it fighting amongst ourselves when there is so much glory to behold right here in our very lives, on this magical blue orb of wonder we call our home. Revel in that.
Oh, it’s so good to be alive and well and living in a time of miracles. Don’t you think? So, rather than aggravate your blistered fingertips keying in wails of regret and despair, make a conscious decision to do something that contributes to the already magnificent human condition we have earned and come to love in this great nation of ours . . . go shopping.
Happy Holy Days.
I don’t normally plug my own small blog here, but it’s easier to share a link to some conclusions I’ve drawn about a really big hurdle for ObamaCare than to type it all out again or even to cut and paste. It’s sort of a follow-up to my earlier comment at #10.
Gone are those glory days, that golden age, when the principal values of life were enshrined, namely PRIVACY AND CHOICE. They were the principal values, weren’t they? At least I was told they were, at least they were until O was enshrined.
You mean it was all bull—-? That liberals didn’t mean a word of it, that it only served their short term goals? But, gee willikers, just what do these altruistic idealists really believe?
Dear Democrats:
Go to hell.
And I mean that will all sincerity.
Sorry, but there was a serious and growing problem and Obama chose to deal with it head on. Republicans were totally free to help work on it or come up a viable alternate (meaning that they actually did some genuine research beforehand), but they chose neither.
All this crybaby BS isn’t helping your cause — as a not so old saying goes….
Although the corrupt lawmakers running DC are a part of the problem with unwanted healthcare, the main problem is actually the people, IMO. More specifically, citizens have evidently not been teaching the Constitution and its history to their children for many generations. Otherwise, grade school children would probably know enough constitutional basics to have stopped Obamacare dead in its tracks long ago by pointing out the following.
Given the Constitution’s silence about public healthcare, the 10th Amendment automatically reserves government power to regulate healthcare to the individual states, not the Oval Office and Congress. In fact, the USSC has already interpreted the Constitution as indicating that Congress has no business sticking its big nose into the medical practice.
“Direct control of medical practice in the states is obviously beyond the power of Congress.” –Linder v. United States, 1925. http://supreme.justia.com/us/268/5/case.html
The USSC has also appropriately decided that Congress cannot lay taxes based on issues that are controlled solely by state power.
“Congress is not empowered to tax for those purposes which are within the exclusive province of the States.” –Chief Justice Marshall, GIBBONS V. OGDEN, 1824. http://supreme.justia.com/us/22/1/case.html
So not only is Obamacare constitutionally unauthorized, but Congress never had the power to lay taxes to fund such a program.
What’s going on is that the corrupt, Constitution-ignoring Congress is using Obamacare to rob the Constitution-ignorant people!
Note that when Congress wants to regulate something, but doesn’t have the constitutional authority to do so, Article V requires Congress to propose an appropriate amendment to the states. And if the states chose to ratify the proposed amendment then Congress would have the authority it needs to tax and regulate a particular issue. But also note that the states can choose not to ratify a proposed amendment in which case it the issue remains a state power issue.
So what people do not understand is that the HoR and Senate actually need much more than merely the majority votes of each house in order to establish constitutionally authorized federal healthcare.
The bottom line is that voters have a big mess to clean up in DC in 2010.
Michelle Malkin’s blog (http://michellemalkin.com/) has the Democrat’s timetable for today’s debate on the Senate version of the Health Care Reform bill–timed, of course, so that the majority of citizens–who are going to be preoccupied with digging out of a blizzard, or Christmas shopping, will be less likely to watch or even know about this highly unusual Sunday session, that will come to a conclusion with a vote scheduled, literally, “in the dead of night” i.e. 1 A.M tomorrow (Monday) morning.
The 1 A.M. vote is apparently the “cloture” vote i.e. whether to allow the bill to be debated, if their is no cloture, the final vote to pass the Senate bill is set for Thursday.
We will need to organize various forms of civil disobedience and develop our own version of the Plivan-Coward strategy. If this bill ever actually makes it through, it will require an extraordinarily complex set of rules and an enormous bureaucracy. A lot of people will have to do a lot of things in coordination; and a lot of people will have to keep on eye on people undermining, gaming and evading the system. We will have to overload the system with evasions, resistance, lawsuits and demands.
This new development makes me a very happy right-winger…
Read more on my blog:
http://hyphenatedamericans.blogspot.com/2009/12/never-let-good-crisis-go-to-waste.html
The old adage that everyone has a price has been proven true again. Nelson is yet another liberal who sold principle, and his constituents up the river. His vote was bought off for a mere few hundred million bucks…. of taxpayer money.
The rabid necessity to ram this thing through BEFORE the prigs in the senate were dismissed to go home, is a remarkable sign of COWARDISM! Too afraid to face their constituents, lest they lose that ONE needed vote, these yellow-bellied snobs cobbled together a bill NO ONE but Reid’s cronies have even read.
Nelson will be forever known as the one who sold us out. And he, like the other cronies in DC who ignored the will of the people, WILL be looking for new jobs. So it’s time to roll up our sleeves, and dig in to overturn this heinous testament to liberal egoism.
A sincere Merry Christmas to all, and may those in government who sold us out, (and exempted themselves from their own “reform”) experience the cold reality of what it means to sell out those who once trusted you to represent them in DC.
Democrats just signed their political death warrants. This issue will not fade into the background because the tax increases in the bill will start immediately. If this monstrosity passes we will have a huge stick to beat Democrats over the head with. Barack Obama promised over..and over…and over..again in the 2008 campaign that there would be no tax increases for 95 percent of American workers. If this bill passes it will expose Obama beyond all doubt for the pathological liar that he is.
I have absolutely NO INTENTION OF PAYING FOR SOMETHING I DO NOT WANT. DO YOU HEAR ME CONGRESS? If the rest of my fellow citizens join me in civil disobedience their health care will be flushed down the crap hole where it belongs. RESIST! And challenge this unconsitutional fascistic nightmare. PUT ME IN JAIL. I can do no less because I know of the sacrifices made for this country by those far greater than I. May God have Mercy on America.
I don’t even have a complete text of the bill that I can comment on.
If there is anything “historic” in what is happening, it is the fact that I am treated like the subject of a monarch by a congress controlled by totalitarians.
Hundreds of thousands of American Warriors have given their lives to defend Freedom and now this conspiracy of internationalist subversives that has occupied schools, universities, and media chokes the debate, gags the American People, promotes a communist agenda and promises to destroy America’s might.
They can think they are winning, but so did stalin and hitler, mussolini and pol pot, and many other beasts.
The future belongs to Freedom.
This is a message for the Trolls who shill for the socieatal rejects that form the various constituencies that make up the Democrat party,
You don’t yet realize it, but you have just cooked your own goose. We will spare no effort in organizing your political destruction. The productive people of this country have far greater resources than you can muster against us. We are not people who belong to the SEIU and work for the government or some psuedo educational establishment, we are the successful and innovative people who have made this country the power that it is and we will no longer abide by your misguided attempts to engineer its descent into mediocrity. Your short lived rule will end after the election of 2010. President Obama is going to find out just how difficult it is to Europeanize the US after we have wiped out your majority in the House and severly attrited it in the Senate.
The majority of people in this country are in the process of waking up after being fooled by the legacy media last year into voting for our sorry excuse for a President. When you pass your Obamacare legislation celebrate long and loud. It will be one of your last opportunities. We have far deeper resources and talent than you can bring onto the playing field. Most importantly, we are highly motivated. This is going to make 1994 look like picnic.
25. Wow you’re stupid. You actually think Christ is our Lord’s surname (as opposed to a TITLE). The H., you reference stands for Ha- meaning “the.” And since when do you believe life is precious? Certainly not while endorsing a bill that pays for abortions while rationing care to the elderly and the disabled.
#22 NAT
I double checked on what the CBO said, NAT. So did Bill Kristol. Here are the key words from the CBO highlighted by Kristol. I put them in caps so even a dope could read them, dopey:
“It is unclear whether such a reduction [in cost increases]in the growth rate could be achieved, and if so, whether it would be accomplished through greater efficiencies in the delivery of health care or would REDUCE ACCESS TO CARE OR DIMINISH THE QUALITY OF CARE.”
Are you really sure you know what you are talking about, NAT?
Myth Buster at 40,
You put your finger on it, it’s their ignorance that will be their undoing. That and the disgust of the overwhelming majority of Americans with the half cooked “ideas” these societal misfits are attempting to foist on the rest of us.
Meanwhile, the Democrats demonstrate a complete disconect with the problems of everyday working Americans as they advocate for and implement policy after policy that harms industrious citizens and damages the economy.
And to top it off they have managed to enrage their most loyal constituencey, senior citizens.
None of their recent policy implementations demonstrate wisdom. Instead they reveal a complete disconect with the reality the rest of us live with.
Complete ignorance, thy name is Democrat.
#1 Dogman
Sheesh. Of course we can afford it. Presto, ChangeO, HopeO all we need to do is disarm the U.S. Armed forces and it is done. No one talks of this, but it is almost guaranteed that O’s hated military, the scourge of the world, will soon be in his sights. Ain’t it grand folks or as O has said:
“Human Nature may not be perfect, but this does not prevent us from perfecting the Human Condition.”
Oh Really.
after we kick the traitors out of office, and we MUST. then we should try them all for treason. for they have knowingly and flagrantly violated the US Constitution.
Democrats. game on.
@BC #29 “Republicans were totally free to help work on it or come up a viable alternate”
Hey BC, they did:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-gops-market-friendly-health-care-reform/
Kdell at 44,
Treason trials would be a complete waste of time. I much prefer that we legislate funding away from their various political constituencies. Defunding ACORN, Legal Aid, Planned Parenthood, etc. would be a start. Governmental union growth also needs to have a stake driven through it. The SEIU constituency produces nothing useful for our society and is nothing more than a woodtick parasite.
When the power shift occurs conservatives need to carefully examine government funding for education in this country. We are broke and must find a way of cutting the cost of government. We offered the best university education in the world prior to the advent of the Dept of Education. Defunding that feckless organization would go along way towards putting education back into the hands of more local constituents. These are the people who made our best educational institutions great in the first place.
This would be a far more effective use of resources than trying a bunch of misguided societal rejects for treason.
#43,
Yes, of course I’ve thought of that — but even then, I don’t see how the numbers add up. There’s no way they can defund the military to the point where it’s destroyed — not in two years, and definitely not after 2010.
Thus, I am left still with my question:
Given the high, ever-increasing cost of the welfare state, if the latter keeps causing the deficit to go up and the country to approach or actually fall into bankruptcy, how will the US be able to continue to fund the welfare state *at all*?
In a nutshell, this is my question:
Isn’t limitless expansion of the welfare state in effect the biggest long-term danger to the very existence of the welfare state?
For example, if the country nears or enters bankruptcy, how will the government be ABLE to continue funding the Depts of Education and HUD, let alone a health-care plan like the one currently being pushed by Congress?
I’m seriously posing this question, because I can’t see how it’s going to work. Really — if anyone has answer to how it will work, please tell me.
As it is, it seems to me that the biggest threat to the welfare state is *the welfare state*. In other words, if something cannot go on indefinitely, simply put, *it won’t*.
Right?
To Samizdat: Please — all the most well-informed and ethical people I know voted for Obama. Only the sort of demonstrable idiot who thinks global warming is a conspiracy or that Hussein had something to do with 9/11 voted for McClain/Palin. No exceptions. All this paranoid, nutcase chatter I see in scary quantity on these right wing websites only marginalizes you guys further. Maybe that not so old saying should be updated to: “If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem — or else just a nutcase on the sidelines talking to himself and throwing rocks.”
Please take a number. Your health care provider will be with you shortly. That is ifr the the high school dropout retard employed by the Feds approves your visit. So sorry. Doubt me?? Call the toll free Social Security number and get acquainted with the system. Or the IRS (a Affirmative Action haven for the intellectually challenged). Take two aspirin and complete your will.
I’m not so sure about getting rid of this. We now have close to 50%, maybe even more, who are getting their free stuff from Obama’s “stash”. They will vote in favor of health care “reform” and the reps and senators who support it.
As I see it, our only hope is that the people receiving free stuff from Obama’s “stash” don’t vote in large numbers.
I’m hoping and believe that the content of this “Health Care Reform” legislation, and the “process”–the secrecy and lack of an actual text voters and representatives can see, examine and thoroughly debate, the lies, the backroom deals with Health Insurance Companies, the Pharmaceutical Industry, SEIU and other Unions, GE, the AMA and AARP, the bribes to purchase votes, and the parliamentary maneuvers to hold a cloture vote at 1 A. M. tomorrow morning, and a final vote on Christmas Eve–all in a cynical attempt to insure that the fewest possible number of citizens are aware of what is happening, and of how citizens are—despite their loud and overwhelming objections to any version of this unnecessary and expensive Health Care Reform–being stabbed in the back, mugged, and then, raped to boot–will “radicalize” a whole lot of formerly complaisant and clueless voters.
Congress would do well to remember that our system of government relies on voluntary compliance by the vast majority of our citizens.
What will many citizens do when they realize that they have been deliberately lied to and screwed, have been pole axed and plundered, and have to pay higher levels of taxes for four years before they will receive even one iota of care from the new “Reformed Health System,” when they realize that tens of millions of illegal aliens will receive health care that actual taxpayers and citizens will have to subsidize or pay for, realize that each one of their states will have its Medicare costs increased to pay for Nebraska Senator Nelson’s bribe of perpetual exemption from Medicare costs for Nebraska, realize that if opposed to abortion they will still have to pay for abortions, will be forced to buy health insurance or face fines and jail, be subjected to
large premium hikes, increased waiting times and massive government interference in their lives and health care decisions; all purchased at the cost of a good portion of their freedom and decision making power, of higher taxes, of massive new bureaucracy and regimentation, of more gigantic, job killing and economy wrecking deficits and debt, and of decreased health care quality, amounts and availability for both them, and their aging family members on Medicare?
My guess is the response will be a massive purge of Democratic members of Congress and Republican fellow travelers, and lawsuits of every conceivable type. But, more importantly, resistance, evasion, non-compliance and “monkey wrenching,” at first on a limited scale, then “massive resistance” and “monkey wrenching” of all sorts—we are an ingenious people.
So Ben Nelson took the 30 pieces of silver… I hope he enjoys his historical achievement much like another that also accepted such a sum. He will be judged accordingly, not just by the Nebraskans he was supposed to represent, but the citizens of this country that his vote will negatively impact.
I must say that all this nastiness and, oh, bitterness and dark thinking just hit same the wrong way. here just a few days before the holiest of days (now I know that some people think Easter is even holier that Christmas or maybe even the day he was crucified – oh, I can barely even write that word – and I suppose that’s a matter of opinion but, well, my opinion is that Christmas, the birthday of our Lord and Savior, is well, the holiest of them all!) . . . oh, gracious me look at what I’ve done, getting all distracted by the Holy Ghost. Anyhoozy, we’re so close to Christmas, and I’m feeling especially cheerful this year. It feels like, oh I don’t know, like our glorious Lamb of God is taking care of a few extra souls this year, looking after the sick and the poor and those among us who have the least . . . could that be it? I don’t know why I feel so good but I just do! And so I ask all of you, please in the name of Jesus H. Christ (the H is for Hallelujah!) set aside your regret and your anger. It has no place in the house of the Lord.
Have the Merry Chrsitmasest of Ever
#48,
Re “or else just a nutcase on the sidelines talking to himself”, we’re not talking to ourselves, this is a forum: we’re talking amongst *ourselves*, and in fact the latter includes you.
Also, by suggesting that anyone who disagrees with you is an ill-informed, “demonstrable idiot”, aren’t you one of the people out there “throwing rocks”?
I don’t know if anthropogenic global warming is a *widespread* conspiracy or not. Given everything we know post-Climategate, it’s pretty clear that certain very influential pro-AGW proponents conspired to hide data conflicting with their theory, and to marginalize scientists and public figures who argued against same — isn’t it? As for the wider picture, I don’t know if the NY Times and WaPo actively conspired with these individuals, but we know the statistical breakdown of the staff of these papers, thus I think you could fairly call it a kind of passive conspiracy: i.e., a bunch of politically like-minded people in positions of power regarding the dissemination of news, most wanting to believe in AGW, and, further, perhaps so convinced of the danger of AGW, certain that they were doing the right thing for humanity by pushing the AGW line.
Isn’t that fair?
As for the idea of Saddam Hussein’s having been involved in 9/11, the truth is I don’t know what the story is. I have read about it, but I’m not sure. What I can tell you is I don’t trust the mainstream media to ever look into the subject, and I think the 9/11 Report was a politicized farce. If the media did look into it, though, and it was found out that S.H. was involved, would it really surprise you? I don’t see how it possibly could, given all we know about him.
Do I sound like I’m throwing rocks, or nuts? If I ask the question, “Can the United States actually go bankrupt from all of this borrowing, printing, and spending of money?” is *that* throwing rocks?
What questions exactly must one refrain from asking so as not to be deemed a nutty thrower of rocks?
What should I be doing so as to be part of the solution as you say? Isn’t dissent the highest form of patriotism anymore? If not, when did it stop being so, and on whose say-so was it stopped?
To the misguided Trollkins,
Keep focusing on the election of 2008 for emotional support, please! It is about as relevant to todays political climate as your Marxist bromides are to solving the unemployment problem created by Obama and his clueless sychophants in the Democrat dominated Congress. You poor, deluded, creatures don’t have a clue about the sh&*t storm that is about to envelop you.
Keep believing that 2008 was a mandate to turn America into Great Britain; please, please, keep that flame burning at all costs.
And know this, the productive in this country are about to terminate your temporary control over the levers of government. We are far better financed, far better educated, and way, way more motivated than you. Most of the time we tend to our business of creating wealth and competing with other entrepreneurs. Not now. For the next months we will be focused on ending your control over government. You have shown that you simply aren’t responsible enough to operate it without harming the citizens of this country.
Enjoy it while you can, you will be out of power shortly.
48. And the news anchors all said, “I don’t know how Nixon/Reagan one; no one I know voted for him.” You don’t hear dissent because you live in an echo chamber.
I must admit that I was not happy with the senate bill either. It failed on nationalizing our health care system and even on the public option. It is also a bonanza for the health insurance industry….which, as we noticed, sent their stocks rising to 50 year highs. However, I think its the best you get for quick passage due to the Republicans refusing to support health care reform. It also ensures quick passage, which at least, will give some relief and allow congress to say, finally after 57 years…they did something….and this time…something to help people. And they dont get to do that often these days… do they?
The “chicken crap” idea sounds good.
But, I think better results could be had using a mixture of red hot hog crap and warm super glue.
46. Samizdat: Don’t forget the NEA. They’re nothing but a left wing propaganda machine and it’s high time we cut them off!
Now & Then,
You are a child. If you ever lay awake at night pondering the reason for your lack of a quality relationship; your lack of professional direction; your intense bitterness towards those you don’t understand-simply look in the mirror. The answer will be standing before you. Now GFY.
Poor Citizen,
Why don’t you move to Europe and enjoy the socialist paradise you dream of. Heck, if I couldn’t make it in a competitive, merit-based market system, I would want everything nationalized, too. Have you noticed that productive Americans who stand on their own feet are against reform while moochers and bums like you are for it? And make no mistake, you ARE a bum – worst of all, you are probably a typical deluded bum that puts the blame on your miserable excuse of a life on everything but where it belongs – your laziness and lack of effort. GFY.
JR Dogman at 54,
Very well said. It won’t matter to the trolls though, actual facts presented logically are simply to be demagogued against. It’s the same shtick Gore uses when facts are thrown at him about AGW. Most of us here appreciate your logic and presentation. Nice job.
#47 dogman
The simple answer, with no sarcasm, belongs to Margaret Thatcher who said, “Socialism is wonderful until it runs out of other people’s money”.
President O and his minions do not care about the outcome other than their own power gain. They do not even know what they want with this power, they just want it to see what might come of it.
These are the people that we fought the first revolution over and I suspect one will come again, the very one ‘They’(O and his academic, political, hollywood crowd) say they want.
I am ready to stand up at 60 and am certainly no wingnut, but rather a tradtional middle class fellow who worked his a$$ off to get where he is. I just joined the NRA and am agast at where we are headed.
It is an astounding time we live in. Human Nature is still Human Nature and President O will not change that only embolden who we are.
Good fortune to you and stand up to what is coming. “They” DO NOT care about you and I only ‘Their’ GIANT egos and self purpose.
Amazing.
I am against nationalized health, which I have experienced over years spent in another developed country. Medical technology lags here, waits exist, not all procedures are covered, and the system has been running debts for years. The debts are getting worse as the population shrinks and ages.
To poster #1, it is a good question at what point too much debt creates collapse. Iceland collapsed with debts equal to around 900% of its GDP. I believe Italy’s debts are similar to Japan’s, around 170% of GDP. Germany is over 100% as are some other European nations, many with shrinking populations. When 0bama leaves, projections (ha) are the US will be at around 90%.
This is in no way an attempt to justify more stupid statist spending, but things might not yet be as dire as they currently seem.
The Democrats in Congress are showing that they are not democrats at all. The opposition to the Health Care Reform Bill is well over 50% of the electorate, and yet they are conniving to pass it, with a last-minute before Xmas session of the Senate.
53. Now and Then:
I must say that all this nastiness and, oh, bitterness and dark thinking just hit same the wrong way.
Wow, people get nasty and bitter when parasites like you act as if you have some divine right to the fruits of their labor. Who could have guessed?
You f-ing POS.
IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States.
#62,
Thanks for the compliment. I always wonder about the troll phenomenon. Do you know if right-wing trolls plague left-wing sites? Because I would never do that, ever — it wouldn’t even occur to me. I’m in NY, and most of my friends are left-wing, and I know which ones I have chance of persuading, and which ones I don’t. It never occurs to me to browbeat them, or harass them for their views — (a) they’re my friends, and (b) even if they weren’t, how the hell am ever going to persuade someone of anything by making fun of their beliefs and annoying them?
So who are these lefty trolls? I’ve heard that Soros-affiliated groups pay lefty trolls to post on conservative sites, as a sort of psyops campaign. I guess they’d be college students, or recent grads without jobs — I just can’t see someone who works devoting him/herself to such a juvenile activity.
#63 & #64, Thank you also for your responses. The thing about a potential revolution coming, I don’t know what it would look like — maybe red (and, judging by the polls, perhaps even some blue) states banding together and declaring their own health care reform package, and refusing to pay for the one being rammed through congress. I’d like to see that happen — that would be an excellent first “shot” across the statist bow.
My main thing, though, is my first post, in which I questioned the workability of the thing. Thus I address the following multi-part question to any and all who wish to try to answer it:
Part A: Can we afford any of the current health-care “reform” plans being proposed by the Democrats?
To me it seems like we can’t afford it, and I proceed with this in mind to:
Part B: Realistically, how are we going to pay all of the money we have borrowed back?
Part C: If we pay it back by deflating the dollar — if that’s possible — even if that worked, wouldn’t that destroy the ability of the US to borrow more money in the future? To wit, who would ever buy our T-Bills after that? To the extent that anyone would loan us money, wouldn’t the vig be so insane as to be unacceptable?
Which leads me to:
Part D, the Real Question: Will the welfare state consume itself, leaving the country no other option but to drastically shrink the federal government?
That is to say, if we can’t borrow forever, and the government keeps spending more money than it takes in, where will the funding for the welfare state come from down the road? Once the country is out of money and can’t borrow more, isn’t that the ball game?
In a nutshell, as I see it, it may be a long, winding road to get there, but isn’t fiscal conservatism our inevitable destination, simply for the fact that all broke people must as a matter of necessity become fiscal conservatives?
Thoughts?
The names of Ben Nelson, Joe Liberman, Mary Landrieu, Blanche Lincoln and others who sold out their country will most certainly go down in history. They will be remembered in the same breath as the name of Judas, of Benedict Arnold, of Vikud Quisling and every other traitor, regardless of what country, who sold out for his or her 30 pieces of silver. At the top of this list of traitors are the names of Harry Reid and Nasty Pelosi. The fact that 60 percent of the voters are against this travesty has no meaning for these elitists. They think they’ve been put into office because they can think and reason better then the rest of the population. If there was ever a time to start thinking about imposing term limits on these elitists now is that time.
An Oldy but goodie from my past:
http://www.bloggybayou.com/2009/05/on-national-healthcare-personal-story.html
To even think healthcare will improve because of this current Bill is laughable… We have the Best healthcare in the world… We need to adopt some freemarket reforms to make it more accessable and affordable, but not this massive overkill that will make it more expensive for all…
I also think mandating coverage will never pass the Constitiutional test…
Cheers
Muckraker
venividivici:
53. Now and Then:
You f-ing POS.
***************************************************************************
And a blessed holiday season to you, venividivici.
Peace on earth and goodwill towards men.
Ken at 69,
That’s Nazi Pelosi, please get her name straight.
JR at 68,
You are very thoughtful and are raising excellent questions. The Federal government has never operated an entitlement program that has come close to being on budget when it deals with the vagaries of the human condition. SSI and Medicare will be bankrupt in a couple of years, so the Dems solution is to create another entitlement. Note that the program will still leave more than 20 million Americans without insurance.
As for the country going broke, we are well on our way and at a very accelerated rate since Obama and Nancy took over. The Chinese are increasingly unwilling to buy our debt, which shows you they are not stupid. There is a good chance we will be defaulting sometime in the next decade and the consequences will be very painful.
There will be inflation. There has to be. The treasury has been printing trillions of dollars in currency over the last 24 months or so. If any recovery takes form inflation will take off. You can take that to the bank.
The welfare state is going to collapse unless spending is severly restricted and the private sector is encouraged to create wealth. Unfortunately, the Marxists who are currently running the country have very little understanding of economic theory and don’t understand that if they applied Laffer economics to our current problems they would create a permanent stream of tax revenue from which they could siphon off what they wished to feed their utopian visions. If they ever began to understand economics and grasped this three dimensional concept, they would be able to establish a permanent political power base. Fortunately for us, they are only able to conceptualize economics as a zero sum game, a two dimensional construct. Because of this failure of imagination, they condemn themselves to never quite being able to grab the ring. When the welfare state they are constructing collapses in a few short years, they will be on the outs again. They will never quite figure out why. Hopefully, it will be the last time we have to deal with their discredited, but pseudo intellectually attractive political and economic theory. Marxism, despite it’s obvious flaws seems to die very hard. That’s because the elites we support are able to dominate discussion even though their performance track record is abysmal. The people running the country now are exactly these people. That’s why things are as they currently are.
Power has already begun to shift away from the left. That turning tide will be running hard in 11 months. You can take that to the bank too. The independents, seniors and other traditionally liberal constituencies are in flight. The Democrat leadership has nothing currently left to offer to change that dynamic. They have shot their bolt.
#53 Now and Then
You might want to be a little careful with your attitude. It doesn’t matter what anyone here thinks of you, but blasphemy has consequences that humankind cannot even fathom!
68
This is a good overview of the current situation and possible shape of things to come.
http://www.american.com/archive/2009/april-2009/the-coming-of-the-fourth-american-republic
The parasites are about to get cut off from the gravy train.
And a blessed holiday season to you, venividivici.
Peace on earth and goodwill towards men.
“Gentlemen may cry, ‘Peace, Peace’, but there is no peace”.
Blow it out your blowhole, jharp.
Remember:
The Issue is Never the Issue
The Issue is Control.
66. VDici…
Talk of the Lord seems to upset you, I’m not sure why. Perhaps he’safreebird can counsel you. I’m not sure what either of you has to object to in my post. Point out my transgression, won’t you?
Samzidat at 72:
Thank you again for the compliments. Something you wrote in post #72 stuck me as important:
“There is a good chance we will be defaulting sometime in the next decade and the consequences will be very painful.”
If our government keeps its current course, I agree with you 100%. And that raises an interesting question:
What will our debtors ask for in lieu of their money back, if and when our dollar is worthless?
Which question leads me to some related others:
1) Will we give our debtors what they ask?
2) Will we be *able* to tell them No?
3) What if we say No, and they say No to our No?
4) Have comparable situations amongst nations arisen in the past? If so, how were they resolved?
I don’t know the answers. I do know, however, that:
* We have some of the largest oil, coal, and natural gas reserves in the world, in addition to other natural resources.
* We have land possessions in addition to our states, plus two states that are not part of the U.S. mainland.
* Foreign interests already lease toll roads in the U.S. If roads, why not cities? E.g., New York, Las Vegas, Atlantic City could all be privately leased for their tax bases.
* In fact, almost anything *could* be leased, if we wanted or were forced to lease it: e.g., nuclear waste storage sites, regular waste storage sites, and farmland.
I emailed Mr. Nelson yesterday, three posts in all. But what does he care what I think? that he’s another Neville Chamberlain, consorting with despots when we thought he had our back? We’ve come to learn he’s a high-priced whore, a man who talks about principle, but only for show and votes from the good people of Nebraska. When the big-dollar pimp comes along, Ben reverts to form. Well, I say, thank you Sen. Nelson for revealing your true colors. Now we know — and we won’t forget. Yours is a name that will live in infamy BECAUSE YOU PROMISED SO MUCH; and we have to ask ourselves: Was it ever REAL?
The secular socialist Left is on the march, and I fear nothing short of armed rebellion will turn the tide.
The courts, the schools, the media-government complex, all arrayed against us patriots, and the vast “independent” and clueless middle wielding the deciding vote while they’re so brainwashed that bad is good one day and good is bad the next — that only through another 1776 will we be able to reclaim our birthright.
The marxist-leninists have had their way with us, while we’ve been living in la-la land thinking our Constitution protected us; meanwhile, the ACLU and its progressive allies in congress have stripped away — bit-by-bit — the foundation of our liberties.
And no wonder they got away with so much, brainwashing the masses — like putty in their hands: we let them have our schools; we let them have our media; we let them have our courts.
Now to get them back we’ll have to resort to arms and stick the words of the Declaration of Independence up their asses.
JR Dogman
Thank you for you posts. In answer to your original post I have a few comments:
1) Yes our country can afford healthcare reform.
2) If our healthcare system is not reformed the country will go bankrupt.
3) Our entire federal government (not just it’s entitlement programs) will not be sustainable if the country does go bankrupt.
To elaborate, I first need to point out what is the cause of the current problems with our healthcare system. It’s threefold; the uninsured, lack of competition, and price gouging of the tax payers. First, the uninsured are the primary reason healthcare costs have skyrocketed and will continue to do so. Without access to healthcare the uninsured get sick, go to an emergency room, and rack up $100,000 hospital bills, which they don’t pay. But you and me and everyone else with “health insurance” end up paying for those services. At least 45 MILLION people in this country are using the healthcare system in this manner and not contributing to it. Second, most insurance markets have only two or three “competitors”. Just like in any other market a lack of competition will lead to price inflation. Third, the federal government (through Medicare/Medicaid, FEHB, VA, and Tricare) consumes almost 50% of all healthcare products and service in this country. With the exception of FEHB, the government is prohibited by law from negotiating discounts from medical providers and suppliers. So the tax payers are stuck with paying about 65% more for those services.
The solutions to those problems are actually pretty simple:
1) Everyone must have health insurance.
2) All health insurance companies must be able to compete with each other.
3) The federal government must be able to negotiate for prices on medical expenditures.
The current bills in congress only accomplish the first two requirements, which is a start but only a start. With most Americans insured and with competition (through the exchanges) prices should deflate. It will take time though. With the federal government (i.e. the taxpayers) overpaying for healthcare expenditures, that may be time that we don’t have.
Remember Dems,”When pigs become hogs, they get slaughtered.” These are historic days, indeed. The last few years you have been in charge of the store, next year, the GIANT awakens, and you will be sent back to your districts, unemployed.
Mr. Independant:
You’re welcome — and I thank you for your response. But I’m not saying we can’t afford *any* health-care reform — I’m just not convinced we can afford what those in Washington are trying to sell as reform. I’m sorry, but to me it looks like a big mess, and I don’t trust the political establishment at all.
Thus, I have a number of questions for those who support what the Democrats are doing re health-care:
First, why are the bills so long? Any legal document of such Byzantine length cannot possibly be properly digested by a normal person — you could make a career out of interpreting such legislation. (In fact, you could probably make a career out of focusing on just a few of such bills, the way scholars focus on the work of a single author, like Tolstoy or Dostoevsky.)
Why can’t everyone just read the bills? Health-care isn’t national security, after all, and it’s our money they mean to spend. Is not the very paper the legislation is written on yours and mine? Are these people not our employees?
Why are the Democrats changing the various bills all the time, adding amendments and so on, without notifying the public?
In general, why is there such a cloud of secrecy surrounding the crafting of these bills? Who’s writing them? Is it too much to ask that we be told the names of the authors, and what parts of the bills they authored?
What’s up with all of the political payoffs to Senators whose states are overwhelmingly against the bills currently in congress? Are the payoffs something other than bribes? If so, what, and why do they look so much like bribes to so many of us?
That old saying about “If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc.” then “it probably is a duck” — do you think this saying is generally applicable to things in life, e.g., that if something looks like a bribe, it probably is a bribe?
Do you think it’s even *possible* for such huge bills to be efficient, and to not have massive unintended consequences?
Do you really accept the proposition that one of these bills *must* be signed into law before 2012 or the country will go bankrupt? Seriously — you don’t really believe that, do you?
Why do we have to do everything all at once, and so quickly, via one of these bills so few have even read, let alone understand? Why can’t we reform health-care a little at a time, addressing the various problems one by one, via targeted legislation that is clearly-written and concise, so taxpayers can understand what our representatives are doing in our stead?
Do you think health-care reform might go much more smoothly and be more effective if we carried out the reform process in such a step-by-step manner, and took our time to make sure we understand what it is we’re doing at all times?
Is it unreasonable to ask that, before Washington spends any more of our money, they try ALL possible solutions (or solutions-in-part) that DO NOT require more spending?
For example: Why shouldn’t we first try letting the insurance companies sell policies across state lines? Wouldn’t that up the competition a great deal, and at no cost to us? And doesn’t competition between sellers of goods and services tend to lower the cost of such goods and services to the consumer?
And how about we enact serious tort reform, via a single, clearly-written bill? Wouldn’t that lower the cost of health-care, without spending any taxpayer dollars?
Now, general questions regarding government-run health-care:
Milton Friedman famously said that you cannot have a welfare state and open borders.
Do you disagree?
I think it is plain that the United States has open borders, and that illegal immigration and our welfare state as it is are a budget-busting combination: in our jails, schools, hospitals, states are paying through the nose for people who have no legal right to be here, yet the federal government refuses to address the matter.
Do you disagree with the above presentation of the facts regarding illegal immigration and its drain on state budgets?
Thanks.
JR
Me Independent (LOL, sure, sure)
“1) Yes our country can afford healthcare reform.”
If we could afford it, we wouldn’t be borrowing trillions from the Chinese. You are wrong on your point 1.
“2) All health insurance companies must be able to compete with each other.”
Simply allow the companies to compete across state lines and the price for all would go down. That doesn’t require an as yet unwritten but already passed thousand page plus bill. You are wrong on point two if you are saying that more than a simple change to existing interstate/intrastate limitations on insurance companies is needed.
“3) The federal government must be able to negotiate for prices on medical expenditures.”
The federal government tells both drug companies and doctors what percentage of the real cost they will pay for Medicare so you’re wrong that they need any expanded ability to “negotiate” when they already dictate. You are wrong on your point three.
Well, you scored about 1/4 of a point out of a self imposed three points which means you haven’t been paying attention to anything other than the propaganda sheets and posting guidelines you get. Keep on bleating there bub. You and a great many others are suffering from a strong delusion and believing lies. Believing the truth would take too much effort on your part, I’m sure, so continue to enjoy your unwavering dedication to ignorance and lies. Just like the climate “data” and “science” the left bandies about, the underpinnings of the entire justification for this socialization of socitey called “health care reform” is based on nothing but lies and distortions carefully manipulated by the totaliarian faithful.
You and a lot of others are really going to hate the equal and opposite reaction that’s coming because it’s going to be a reaction to the whole socialist agenda all the way back to FDR, not just to the past few years.
have a nice day
Is it true that Ben Nelson is changing his last name to Dover?
Three options: America literally breaks apart, Civil War, or accept the “changes”. I say Civil War, since we do not negotiate with terrorists. I say this not with an extreme tongue in cheek, either. This is not only a matter of the economy, but the morality of the people of this nation. We cannot force our morality onto others, but this applies to all. Now, those who are truly tolerant and liberal (generous) are being infringed upon by a growing body of atheist amoral, immoral, earth worshippers (who ultimately, and catastrophically, are in darkness and being led by demons). We are obviously at an impasse in morality. Judgment is at a standstill.
Liberals are the front of civilized evil, and there is no reasoning with them. That is what it boils down to.
My fear is that when God strikes down the Liberals the non-Liberals among them will receive that wrath also. As when Lot was living in Sodom he was among people with unclean lips, and had to be literally evacuated before God exterminated the irredeemably sinful. Now, will God rain down fire and brimstone? How about a plague that not only effects the hardcore partiers, but the softcore, (note, I’m not trying to justify any sin), but to God, all sin is evil, and what we have in America is a group that is causing their sins to rise to heaven. When God decides to bring judgment on them all sinners will be punished. Are you sinless? So, we need to get rid of the Liberals.
I hope someone more computer savvy than I, starts a website dedicated to taxpayers like me, to boycott any forced purchase of Government mandated coverage.
I expect the numbers would be huge. I live most of my life ‘south of the border’, and refuse to add an Obama insurance policy to my monthly tab.
I don’t know that Bob Nelson will ” not” be “re-elected”…he just secured a lot for his state…at our expense..just like Landreau, leiberman..
I think the Dems in general will pay.
it will be difficult to reverse their mess.
Also, we need to be careful of who we do elect in their places.
There are repubs out there that are liberals in conservative clothing and will bend over at a moments notice.
84..hahaha
The way things are going, i’m gonna need to learn Chinese to work in the U.S.A.,..right now i have to talk spanish (mexican) to order at McDonalds or shop at Walmart..
Civil War…..it is being perpetuated and planned by Washington..
JR Dogman
You’re welcome as well and thanks again for your response. I agree with you that the whole process in Washington is a mess. And I don’t trust any DEM or REB. The current state of our country is a direct result of having a two party political system. FP Bush would never have been elected if not for the DEMs and President Obama would never have been elected if the REBs hadn’t elected and re-elected FP Bush. We don’t deserve what’s happening to us but we are getting what we asked for. As long as we continue to support DEMs and REBs our countries’ problems will take a long time to fix (if ever). But I digress. On to your questions:
The reason why most bills (not just the current healthcare bills) are so long is because they are going to regulate hundreds of companies, tens of thousands of medical policies, and tens of millions of customers. For some perspective ask your insurance company for it’s general policy manual for your type of policy. Mine is over 600 pages long. That’s just one company. The entire system needs to be reformed and that will require extensive regulation.
On your question about the actual process of creating these bills I think that it should be completely open to the public. All final bills should be available to the public for 10 days, all amendments should have their sponsor’s known, and all negotiations should be televised. That will never happen in a government controlled by the DEM or REB parties.
As far a certain states being against reform, I think it’s more of certain voters being against reform and not most citizens being against reform. Senior citizens (especially the baby-boomers) are the most powerful voting block in the country. Very little gets done in this country unless they ok it. Those voters fight tooth and nail to protect their Medicare benefits. And so enough of them are against reform so as to give the impression that the majority of US citizens are against reform. I don’t think that’s true. Yes a majority of voters are against reform but not a majority of citizens.
On your comment about bribes I agree with you. I know legally there really not bribes but in reality they really are. That is unfortunately one of the many negative consequences of a two party political system. If you want that to change, you have to stop supporting DEMs or REBs and start supporting INDEPENDENTS.
On your question about efficiency and unintended consequences, no I do not think it’s possible. But you have to take the good with the bad. During the Bush administration health care costs more than doubled. That will continue until the country goes bankrupt or the system is reformed. Lets worry about saving the ship first before we worry about the unhealthy menu in the galley.
On the immediacy of the problem, I think reform must be underway with ten years. The 2012 date is a political need of the DEMs but if the DEMs don’t pass healthcare reform during this congress I think it will be at least twelve years before the process ever gets started again. The REBs will probably have one last chance to “run” the county before they go the way of the Whigs. That’s at least four years and maybe eight that health care reform will not take place. That’s time that the country cannot afford to waste.
On your suggestions about reforming health care I agree with your first point but disagree with your second. Competition is essential to stopping inflation but it won’t work unless everyone is participating. All Americans must have health insurance. Six to twelve million illegals will not be contributing to the system, no citizens can be allowed to make that problem worse, otherwise your health care costs will double again over the next eight years. Tort reform will have virtually no impact on the system as a whole. Most estimates I’ve seem suggest that frivolous medical lawsuits cost the industry only about 15 billion dollars a year. But for the sake of argument, lets say that’s it actually 150 billion; that’s less then ten percent of the industry. On a smaller scale consider this; the average doctor makes about $150,000 per year and pays less than $18,000 per year for malpractice insurance. That’s only twelve percent. That less than the 17 percent most businesses pay for workmen’s comp. Tort reform in my opinion is not a solution but just a distraction. And that doesn’t even address the issue that individuals should be able to seek redress when they’ve been wronged.
On you final question, yes I disagree with Milton Friedman generally and specifically:
Generally speaking, I think Friedman’s beliefs have been disproven in general. If the only good regulation is no regulation, how did the DEMs and REBs wreck the economy? If you take just a casual look at history, countries like the Soviet Union, China, and India prove the socialism (or communism) doesn’t work. Unfortunately for this country many people still think that libertarianism will. It won’t. The last ten years prove that. Just south of us Mexico proves the failure of libertarianism as well. Mexico should be a REB paradise. The Heritage Foundation lists Mexico as the third most libertarian country in the western hemisphere; and that’s just on paper. If you consider the corruption, Mexico is arguably the most libertarian country in the world. But for 98 percent of it’s citizens, their economy is a third world dump.
Specifically, I don’t think we live in a welfare state. 80 percent of all those able (under the age of 65) work. 90 percent of those who don’t lost their jobs because of the Great Recession. The two entitlement programs that consume about 44 percent of the federal budget are Medicare and Social Security. Most seniors fanatically support those programs. They earned those benefits after all. So you see there is no cradle to grave entitlements for most Americans.
On illegal immigration, even if all illegals were deported and all illegal immigration were to stop, the changes to this country would still continue unabated because of the 1 million people that are legally allowed to immigrate here. BTW most illegals pay taxes to support our hospitals, schools, and prisons and will not receive the full benefit for those contributions. So yes I do disagree with you that illegals are a next drain of state budgets.
Finally, I agree with you that the US is an open borders country but I disagree with you that we are a welfare state. What I think is going to bust our countries’ budget is the status quo. If Social Security taxes are raised just 1.5 percent and the retirement age is increased just two years, the system becomes sustainable for another 100 years. If all Americans have health insurance, if private insurers are able to compete with each other, and if the federal government is able to receive the same discounts for medical purchases that private insurances receive, the federal deficit could be reduced by over 1 TRILLION dollars over the next twenty years. The current “health care” system is unsustainable. It’s going to be changed. The only question is if it is going to be before or after our collective house is foreclosed on.
Vaughn:
“I live most of my life ’south of the border’, and refuse to add an Obama insurance policy to my monthly tab.”
So we have another “conservative” sucking off the government teat, refusing to buy health insurance, and using the taxpayers as a safety net if any serious health issues occur.
You need to buy some health insurance. I do not want my tax dollars paying for your refusal to do so. And if you’re too poor, which is likely, there is help available. And I’d gladly support using my tax dollars to help you.
“Point out my transgression, won’t you?”
You consistently support actions by the Federal government that violate the rights of life, liberty, and property of American citizens. You do so with a perpetual sneer and a near absence of fact and logic.
reashputpin
Actually were borrowing a trillion dollars from our children to pay for the reform. And because of your party and the DEMs we can’t afford not to. So your wrong on your first counter point.
The competition effect on inflation will only work if everyone is participating. I want insurance companies to all be completing against each other but there can be no more free rides. There’s already going to be six to twelve million illegals not contributing, no one else can be allowed to add to that.
The federal government is prohibited by law (Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement, and Modernization Act ) from negotiating for medical expenditures (http://www.cms.hhs.gov/MMAUpdate/). I’m sorry but you don’t know what you’re writing about. Except for FEHB the federal government has to pass special legislation just to prevent annual increases for those payments. Since the federal government (i.e. the tax payers) purchase almost 50 percent of all health care, it should be receiving the same discounts that private companies receive. Or are you suggesting that Aetna, BlueCross, and Human should be outlawed from receiving the (on average) 65 percent discounts that they do? So your wrong on your third counter point.
Furthermore, your childish comments at the end of you last post serve no purpose. As I’ve demonstrated, you are misinformed. A better use of you time would have been to ask questions.
Finally, as my handle suggests, I’m an independent. My “lot” are those Americans who realize that this countrie’s problems are the result of your party and the DEMs. While you might enjoy a short term comeback for a few years your party is finished. 75 percent of the GOP are white, male, baby boomers. While there’s nothing wrong with those people, it’s not a demographic that a national party can be built on. So in a few years my “lot’s” only concern will be providing an alternative to the DEMs.
So long and say hi to the Whigs when you see them.
Mr. Independant:
We see things very differently. I read your response in full, and while you have some interesting points (e.g., the Heritage Foundation libertarian ranking of Mexico, which I never heard before), I think your blanket dismissal of Milton Friedman flies in the face of reality, particularly as regards illegal immigration.
Also, your indictment of our two-party system is I think off-base. Parliamentary systems are far less efficient, and to my mind give far too much power to radical elements. To paraphrase Churchill, America’s two-party system is indeed the worst political system in the world, except for all the other systems.
I do agree with you on one point, and that is the GOP could go the way of the Whigs, only with no Lincolnesque successor party to rescue the nation. With our open borders and the current tax system, we are well on our way to having imported and cultivated Venezuela-like conditions.
Of course, it would be hubris to imagine that, while nations have risen and fallen throughout history, the USA would never be subject to such normal historical patterns. I think too many in our nation lack a sense, psychologically, of self-preservation — a bedrock conviction that this is *our* house, and like our actual house, it is solely *our* right to determine who may come in and who may not, who must leave, and what exactly our culture is and stands for, and what it must stand for going forward. In short, you cannot guard jealously what you do not feel is worthy of being jealously guarded: I believe far too many of our citizens exemplify the maxim that if you don’t know what you stand for, you’ll fall for anything.
The last sentence of the paragraph above I think encapsulates why we disagree on this and other subjects — at least from my POV. As I see it, we disagree because what I see as common sense rules and lessons you see as urban myths/popular fallacies, understandable (and thus forgivable) but still false. For example, on other threads in the past, you and I have exchanged on the nature of Islam’s relationship to terrorism, and ultimately what I felt I was being asked was the equivalent of, “Who do you believe, me or your own lying eyes?”
That said, although I got that same feeling in spades reading your most recent post, as always you presented your case clearly and courteously, and I appreciate that. There is a reason why formal politesse is codified in (mostly-)functioning legislative bodies such as our House and Senate: without it debates that are already incredibly difficult become practically impossible to hold.
I wish more people would keep such in mind when posting on forums such as this one. Even if the ship is going down — perhaps *especially* when the ship is going down — common courtesy should remain the rule.
91 …
Thanks for the boiler plate democrat propaganda with a dash of ad hominem. It’s a nice try, but it’s too obvious. Your entire shallow pretense has been equally feeble. I do enjoy the laughs those like you provide so thanks for the laugh.
have a nice day
What should conservatives do now?
At this point in time we are all breathlessly watching the amazing spectacle of descent of the Anointed One from the Garden of Eden into the crap-hole of history. What should the American conservatives do to accelerate this fall and make sure that our country gets back on track?
For more, read here:
http://hyphenatedamericans.blogspot.com/2009/12/what-should-conservative-do-now.html
The Dems did not need any Repubs to vote on this health care deal.
>>HOWEVER!!!!! The Repubs are NOT the good guys here. There are several, that if needed, would have voted with the Dems. We need to weed these people out come 2010.
Deals made in back rooms, name calling, embarrassing each other, going against what the public (voters) want, midnight votes…what has happened to our country folks? or is that “comrade”..
The American public has a right to know everything about their government. Our elected officials need to learn this fact in the next election.
The question that I have is what do we do in the mean time?
Some are very vocal on this site. Will you be handing out flyers and attending meetings for the conservative candidate of your choice?
The things that are going on in Washington are out of the realm of common sense.
For Mr.Independent…
“Just south of us Mexico proves the failure of libertarianism as well. Mexico should be a REB paradise. The Heritage Foundation lists Mexico as the third most libertarian country in the western hemisphere; and that’s just on paper.”
Heritage Foundation says that Mexico in #49 on economic liberty in the world, behind Botswana:
http://www.heritage.org/Index/Ranking.aspx
Countries in Western Hemisphere, which are ahead of Mexico are:
United States
Canada
Chile
Barbados
The Bahamas
El Salvador
Uruguay
Saint Lucia
Trinidad and Tobago
Costa Rica
Mexico is #3 in North America, not the Western Hemisphere.
It has high corruption, medium property rights, medium labor freedom, medium investment freedom.
JR Dogman,
Well said. I disagree with your position but just the same well said. I think you hit the nail right on the head about our differences of opinion. I base my positions on what can be proven by empirically based science. I have no problem admitting when I’m wrong but you have to prove it to me. Also, I’m sorry I forgot to provide a link for my comment about Mexico, here it is: http://www.heritage.org/Index/country/Mexico
Anyway, I would like to discuss one point a little further; my indictment of our two party system. Every functioning democracy on the planet as a multi-party system, why can’t we? You think that such systems give too much power to the extremes; I think the opposite is true. Consider this, one of the bedrock principles of our country is the separation of power. Three branches of government, three levels of government, private ownership of business, and private ownership of labor. That principal of checks and balances is absent in our political system. If a two party system is better than a multi-party system, do you think that a one party system will be better? I don’t. Our government would work a lot smother if the congress was disbanded. I don’t want that and I don’t want this two party system to continue. In the context of the health care debate how much better would the bill be if there was a real libertarian party, competing with a socialist party, competing with a empirical party to reform our health care system? Any thoughts?
Dear Readers,
I have a correction to make. In a previous post I wrote that Mexico is listed by the Heritage Foundation as the third most libertarian country in the Western Hemisphere; that was not correct. What I should have stated is that Mexico is ranked number three in North America and Latin America. http://www.heritage.org/Index/country/Mexico
98. Mr. Independant:
Re: your correction . . . I wouldn’t worry about it. If you’re quoting The Heritage Foundation, you have a 50/50 shot at being right anyway.
Mr. Independant:
Re, “I base my positions on what can be proven by empirically based science”, no doubt we all feel this way. My reference to maxims is merely to point out that they are usually a handy shorthand for describing reality. For example, Friedman’s observation that you cannot have open borders and a welfare state seems to me an exemplary maxim: i.e., a short statment encapsulating an understood truth.
That we all feel we base our views on facts and common-sense is part of the problem of the irreconcilability of certain political views: David Corn is clearly a smart man, and so is Charles Krauthammer, yet the worlds these two men see before them are so different — it is like one sees an apple and the other an orange.
If we believe in truth, logically, what one of these men thinks he sees is correct, and what the other sees is incorrect. Perhaps it is better to say there are degrees of incorrectness and correctness. Going by that forumulation, the following can be said with certainty:
1) Mr. Independant and JR Dogman present interpretations of reality that are radically different from each other — apples and oranges, as the saying goes.
2) Of Mr. Independant and JR Dogman, one is more correct in his interpretations than the other, and vice versa.
Since each of us looks to statistics, and since there are so many “competing” stats out there — people with varying ideologies and degrees of honesty — each of us seizes upon and presents those stats that make the most sense to us per how we see the world.
Thus, e.g., I say the drain of illegal immigrants on our state budgets is substantial and can be proven; you feel otherwise, and no doubt believe you can prove this to be the case.
It seems absurd that it cannot be logically determined and so universally agreed upon whether the millions of illegal immigrants in our jails, and using our schools, hospitals, and roads are a net drain on our state budgets (and therefore the federal budget) or not; and indeed, in my view it *is* absurd.
Yet the dilemma stands. I can offer you case after case, example after example, showing what I believe to be convincing evidence of X, Y, or Z, and you will offer your counter-examples — or vice-versa. That’s why people get frustrated on these forums, and sink into rudeness so easily: “Why won’t this person acknowledge what is as plain as the nose on his/her face?” they think, yet, granting the other person is arguing in good faith, s/he really *does* see an apple (or orange, as the case may be).
For years now I have been thinking of this peculiar dilemma, and all I can conclude is that it has always existed and always will, though it is almost certainly the fount of tremendous human suffering that, I am sure, all of us would like to lessen as much as possible.
Life is absurd.
89. See now, I’m wondering why we allow that. If you need to go to the hospital, you will get treated, but you must pay for it. If you don’t have insurance, you pay cash. If you don’t have cash, you work out a payment plan. If you default on the payment plan, it gets sent to collections, your credit rating gets trashed, and the hospital can sue you to garnish your wages, confiscate property, whatever, to get paid.
Mr. Independant:
Re “Every functioning democracy on the planet as a multi-party system, why can’t we?”
Sorry, but a little friendly sarcasm here is a must. Every other functioning democracy lacks a Bill of Rights, so why shouldn’t we? Or, to paraphrase what all of our mothers used to say to us when we said “but all my friends did _____”, if every other functioning democracy decides to immolate itself, does that mean we should follow suit?
No — of course not.
In any event, I believe our two-party system tends leads to greater functionality and moderation than any parliamentary system can for a very simple reason: the bigger a group is, the more it must compromise within its big tent to keep peace amongst its members. Thus, even though the Democrats’ leaders are at present wildly to the left of most of the electorate, moderate elements within the party keep the Nancy Pelosis and Harry Reids from going completely overboard. (Yes, fellow conservatives, I know it doesn’t look that way at the moment — but consider: it could always be worse.) While the current situation in Washington seems without precedent, it’s not a done deal yet, and supposedly moderate Dems and the GOP as a whole may still stall the situation so that it can be better addressed in the future — which would be a very good idea for everyone, politians of all stripes and the people they represent.
The problem with parliamentary systems is that extreme factions are liable to rise to power in moments of crisis: say an Mexican convert to Islam, here illegally, set off a suitcase nuke in an American city — if we had a parliamentary system as they have in the European nations, very likely a violently anti-immigrant group could come to power amid the chaos and take a great many destructive, anti-democratic measures we would later regret.
Or let’s say there was a huge banking scandal, and the press whipped the public up into a frenzy and they decided it was simply the straw that broke the camel’s back, and thus, in response to the crazy emotion of the moment, a socialist party got hold of the reins. What might such an anti-business group do at such a moment if given such power? Very likely, in their zeal they would enact measures that would terribly stifle commerce and drive yet more American-based companies overseas. The banking crisis would be abused, used as an excuse to do things most ideologically-moderate Americans would never want done.
In short, Nancy Pelosi may be perfect in the minds of her district, but to most Americans she is waaaay, way left. Thankfully, however, even as Speaker, while she may be able to do a great deal of what I consider damage to the country, what she *can* do isn’t near what she would *like* to do. She is stopped not just by the GOP, but by the more centrist pols in her own party.
Democracy in any way, shape or form is always messy, no matter the system — but our two-party system is far and away the best in the world. A parliamentary system can be great fun to observe — it’s raucous and with all sorts of crazy factions — but it is not American in character and would not serve us well at all.
rasputin,
Actually, I was responding to specific points you made and refuting them using current legislation. If you feel that I was doing otherwise why didn’t you cite your alleged “propaganda” and personal attacks specifically? Is it because I never stated such things?
Hyphenated American
You pointed out that Mexico has “high corruption, medium property rights, medium labor freedom, medium investment freedom“. All mostly true but those points actually prove mine. Corruption acts a regulation eliminator. The Mexican government’s regulation of business is a joke. Businesses don’t bribe government officials to regulate them more. That doesn’t make any sense. Your points about the lack of property and labor freedom are a result of libertarian economic policies. You also stated that Mexico has medium investment freedom; why then is it the 10th or 11th largest economy in the world? And to get back on topic; if libertarianism doesn’t work in the broader economy, why would it work in the medical industry?
Now and Then,
Yes that’s true but I make it a point to quote sources accurately. If I make a mistake or am proven wrong I admit it.
myth buster,
What you describe in post #101 is what the situation is today. It isn’t working. If someone goes to an emergency room and racks up $100,000 in medical bills and they don’t have any assets or income there’s nothing to collect.
JR Dogman,
In response to post #100, I think the disagreement that were having is that you seem to be relying on what you consider common sense and I’m relying on empirical evidence. While both can be wrong my positions can be proven (or disproven) much more easily. For example, you have not disputed any of my counter arguments about health care reform, except my views on illegal immigrants; do you believe your position on this topic is based on common sense or statistics? If you’re relying on common sense try looking at the actual stats and see if your beliefs are proven. The stats you should research should be:
1) The number of illegals in your state,
2) The cost per person for hospitals, prisons, and schools,
3) How many illegals are in your state’s hospitals, prisons, and schools,
4) And if the taxes those illegals pay, do or do not pay for those services.
In response to post #102, LOL I had that coming. What I should have wrote is that every other functioning democracy in the world has a multi-party political system and those systems have consistently avoided the problems that our two-party system have not. In the context of this discussion the Bill of Rights in not relevant. I’m not advocating for a change of our system of government but for the end of the monopoly of political power by the DEMs and REBs. Let emphasize that point; I don’t want our government to be changed to a parliamentary form of government. I want to bring greater freedom to our political process. Something that does not require legislation. It’s simply a matter of me and others convincing voters to stop supporting DEMs and REBs. You think that our political system is the best in the world; why then was our country behind the rest of the world when confronting slavery, equality, fascism, and terrorism? Could it be our political system. I think so.
Getting back on topic I’ll ask you again if you think the health care reform efforts of today would be better or worse if they were taking place in a multi-party political environment?
Thank you