Hamas’ Lies about Gaza Fatalities Unmasked
It’s now official: the casualty counts you heard for the Palestinians during the recent war in Gaza were wild fabrications put out by the Hamas terrorist organization and its allies, and eagerly accepted and circulated by Western media.
The Jerusalem Post reported this week that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) has at last opened its detailed dossier on the Palestinian fatalities during the war. It shows a picture radically different from the one that keeps sparking so much righteous outrage against Israel.
According to the widely cited figures of the Gaza-based Palestinian Center for Human Rights — which NGO Monitor describes as “pressing [an] anti-Israel agenda in media and international organizations” with its “reports condemning Israel policy often lack[ing] credibility” — some 895 Gaza civilians were killed in the war, or about two-thirds of the total Palestinian death count. But according to the IDF’s Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration (CLA), the truth is the reverse: about two-thirds of the dead were fighters from Hamas and other groups.
Out of the 1,338 Palestinian fatalities, the CLA has now identified over 1,200. The Post notes that “its 200-page report lists their names, their official Palestinian Authority identity numbers, the circumstances in which they were killed and, where appropriate, the terrorist group with which they were affiliated.”
Of these, the CLA has conclusively established that 580 were members of Hamas and other terror organizations. Another 300 were noncombatants — women, children younger than 15, men over 65. Another 320 names are yet to be classified; all were men and the IDF estimates that about two-thirds were terrorists.
Col. Moshe Levi, head of the CLA, says Hamas’ “false reporting” was behind the distortions and gives an example: on January 6, about halfway through Operation Cast Lead, Hamas claimed IDF shells had hit a UN school in Jabalya and killed over 40 including many civilians. The claim was widely disseminated and further stoked already mounting diplomatic pressure on Israel, with the UN Security Council calling two nights later for an immediate ceasefire by a 14-0 vote on which the United States — despite Israeli expectations of a veto — abstained.
It turns out, though, that the actual number of Palestinians killed at the school was 12 — nine of them Hamas gunmen, three civilians. The UN itself has since admitted that the IDF was returning fire and that none of its shells hit the school itself.
In light of all this, the IDF is now “considering setting up a ‘response team’ for future conflicts whose job would be to collect information, analyze it and issue reports as rapidly as possible that refuted Hamas fabrications.”
Why would ANYONE believe ANTHING that Islamiac terrorists say? Oh,yeah…forgot about CNN…
Israel, once again, failed to “win.” Sure, the destruction levied upon Gaza was severe; sure, many Hamas fighters died or were wounded; sure, Israel lost few of its people or soldiers. However, Hamas lives. The dragon has survived. And it has survived to fight another day. And fight another day, it will.
A primary failure is within the “international community” to realize that there will be no peace until unrelenting war has been waged and one side has unconditionally surrendered. Another fault lies with the military and politics of Israel. Both failed, again, to see through the fog of war that the only victory is a complete one. Limited wars always reap limited results.
An analogy: When you get strep throat, the doctor doesn’t just prescribe enough antibiotics to reduce the pain or just enough to slow the infection. The doctor prescribes enough medicine to kill off all of the bacteria. Dr. HonestJon prescribes an all-out war until the infection of Hamas has been eliminated from everything excepting the history books. Any other prescription is equivalent to slow suicide.
regards
This is an extremely important article. It points to the Media collaboration in lies with ‘Hamas’ and other Israel- haters. I guarantee that despite this article, despite the documentation provided by the Israeli military, almost all ‘objective media’ including the major press- services will continue to cite the Palestinian figures as the authentic ones. They will prefer the first lie they heard to the carefully checked truth.
All Muslims should be forcefully removed from Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Zorastrian, and earth worshipping lands. Do unto Muslims as they do unto others.
Wartime propoganda has always been used but which sides bullshit you believe in says a lot about who you think the bad guys are. The fact that the western MSM in general chose to promote the obvious nonsense being spouted by Hamas tells you everything you need to know about them.
That is pretty disturbing for anyone who is interested in such minor issues as freedom and respect for human rights – two issues that even the most rabid anti-Jew cannot pretend are strong suits of Hamas in particular and Islam in general.
You cannot discount two major motivators of the MSM and those are antisemitism and the notion of racist supremacy. That the MSM is antisemitic is clear, see how it lionized Carter and his antisemtic spouting. The racist supremacy of the MSM manifests in lowering ethical demands of the Arabs compared with Europeans or European affilliated entitis such as Israel. They are not held up to the same ethical standards due to being considered culturally inferior. Hold that up to their faces
Certain of the particulars of the shelling near the school conflict with a preliminary report from the army described by Ha’aretz in a January 11, 2009 article. Perhaps the report has been updated. It would be useful to be able to access any updated report directly, for reasons that follow below.
According to the Ha’aretz article, the report said that rocket fire had been identified coming from a building next to the school and IDF personnel responded with mortar fire. The standard deviation for targeting of such mortars is said by B’Tselem to be “a few dozen meters”. If the preliminary report is correct, then it raises at least three issues.
Firstly, the earlier claim by the Israeli government that the shelling was in response to fire from the school would be a reckless error or a fabrication.
Secondly, the repeated use of such an imprecise and destructive weapon in such a densely populated urban area would naturally and forseeably result in civilian casualties. One is presumed to have intended the natural consequences of one’s acts. It is worth noting that we quite rightly presume that Hamas intends to kill civilians when it fires rockets into Israel, even thought those rockest have much much less liklihood of hurting anyone. To arm IDF personnel with mortars in such an area is to expect them to employ the mortars and amounts to a deliberate decision to kill an indeterminate number of civilians in preference to putting IDF personnel at risk. The tactical wisdom of doing this is obvious. The moral wisdom may not be so obvious to some people.
Thirdly, if the preliminary report is accurate, it calls into question the credibility Mr. Hornik.
Mr. Hornik:
Nice article but the title is incorrect. Should read: “Hamas’ Lies about Gaza Fatalities Unmasked AGAIN, Western Media Duped by the lies AGAIN.”
We know why Hamas does this. Why the western press aids and abets them is the real question.
8. SAF: We know why Hamas does this. Why the western press aids and abets them is the real question.
Simple, it aligns with the MSM’s goals.
Another example of a lie travelling arounfd the world twice before the truth gets out of the door.
Somewhere in the back of my mind I seem to recall that lies and deception are perfectly acceptable in Islam when dealing with the infidels. Therefore, why anyone should expect something different is completely beyond me.
And remember, this is the same MSM who gave us “The One”.
Wait… why should we believe the IDF? Just as Hamas would be motivated to inflate numbers, the IDF would be motivated to minimize them, right? Why should we trust either organization?
David C,
You have completely missed the point. The very fact that Hamas used a heavily populated area, as you say, by civilians to fire on Israeli defence forces shows their reckless disregard for their own civilian lives. Israel cannot be held accountable for the consequences of their actions since it was Hamas who chose to fire right next to an UNRWA school and in a heavily populated area.
Mailman
12. V wrote:
Wait… why should we believe the IDF? Just as Hamas would be motivated to inflate numbers, the IDF would be motivated to minimize them, right? Why should we trust either organization?
Peter writes: What part of “The difference between Israel and Hamas, in other words, is there to see and always has been: on the one hand a Western democracy upholding the highest standards of human rights, its army making unprecedented efforts to minimize civilian casualties; on the other a terrorist organization with a genocidal charter that systematically targets Israeli civilians and systematically exploits Palestinian civilians as human shields” is not getting through your skull?
“A democratic state should not be assumed to have the same or — more often — less credibility than a terrorist organization.”
You sound more like a terrorist supporter than a cautious skepic.
Mailman @#13
Don’t bother trying to point out the flaws in David C’s arguements. He’s another terror supporter troll who like to provoke on this site.
To maintain stability in a society that lets men have four wives, you have to kill three fourths of the men. Israel did them a favor. Hamas isn’t keeping up with “demand”, even though they try.
Geography is a recognized way of communicating history. So, I toss this up for anyone: to what extent does tribalism
owes its existence to geography.
For, this gets to the heart of the double standard employed by the “Sons of Allah” (to use Orianna Fallaci’s phrase).
Mailman,
I join in your criticism of Hamas. In fact, I believe that the whole of Hamas’ violent response (not just the kidnapping, suicide bombing, summary execution of opponents and using civilians for cover) is misguided and immoral for a host of reasons. Hamas has choices.
However, there are many people who think that the wrongful actions of Hamas will not automatically justify anything and everything that Israel might do in response. For example, in the case of the apparent rocket fire from near the school, there are many people who would have considered it wrong for Israel to have responded by frying the entire area in phosphorous, flattening the area and the surrounding 8 square blocks with carpet bombing, or using the nuclear option to obliterate Gaza City and render it uninhabitable for generations. Had Israel done any of these things, surely no one would believe that the scale of the resulting death and destruction would have been Hamas’ fault alone. Israel also has choices and it can be held accountable for those choices.
Some IDF seem to understand this. In connection with the shelling near the school, Army officers reportedly told Ha’aretz that, in retrospect, “the choice of the means of response was faulty” and that the army should have used a precise weapon. B’Tselem went further and called for the army to refrain from even issuing such imprecise weapons for use in such areas.
Interestingly, the example of the nuclear option given above goes to the main theme of Mr. Hornik’s article, simply by assuming that Israel has a nuclear option. For decades, Israel has officially denied accusations of having nuclear weapons. Does anyone believe these official denials? The question, of course, is rhetorical. The lesson is that one should not uncritically accept statements from parties in conflict.
Regrettably, at the time I write this my questions respecting the factual accuracy of some information in the article have not yet been addressed, and the resulting issues remain undisturbed.
David C
Same old bullsh*t again. Hamas fires mortars and rockets, that’s OK. IDF does it and its a no no. Listen I had mortar training in the army. Your first shot is somewhere not even close to the target. Once you’ve zeroed on the first coordinate you can plant the next round on top of a playing card. I’ve done it. Its all as good as your forward observer is.
A good mortar man is very deadly.
Keep quoting B’Tselem, everyone knows how honest those left wingers are. By the way B’Tselem has a number of interpretations, one is the house of the cross.
I love how you side step issues, Israel proves 12 died at the UN school. You would insist that the round or rounds hit the school and 45 children died.
Two thirds of the dead were Hamas or their allies. You would insist they were all civilians because none of them was wearing a uniform.
Why do you leave out one minor fact? Hamas was the first to use white phosphorus. I know you’ll say they had the right and those damn Jews didn’t.
Do me a favor and piss off.
Israel considers anyone who happens to be against their own “policy of terror” to be “terrorist” groups. I’ve been there and seen it. Israel has broken so many U.N. resolutions throughout all these years that I cannot even recall the count; conversely, Palestine has not broken even one. Israel has killed many Americans (such as the crew onboard the U.S. Liberty and, in 2003, Rachel Corrie); I do not recall many Americans ever killed by Palestinians. Israel also rountinely kills journalists, ambulance drivers, U.N. workers, and more recently, Red Cross workers. War crimes. Israel, a nation that continute to break international law time after time (laws made to protect the Jewish people, and all of us, after the Holocaust) has no reason to speak of itself so self-righteously. Israelis were the first terrorists to exist in the region long before any Palestinian even thought of it (“The Stern Gang” or the “Irgun” Israeli terrorist group of the early 1930s). Anyone who fails to see the contradictions in this argument cannot have the necessary logic to even argue with and are merely blind believers of the press. Zionism does an injustice to the Jewish faith, and 25% of people in the peace groups (against the Israeli occupation of Palestinian) are themselves, Jewish humanitarians. Zionism does not give Jewish people a good name and most traditional Jews will agree. Zionism and Judaism are NOT the same thing, it is Zionism that uses more terror-tactics than Palestinians could even dream of. Palestinan children still languish in Israeli jails, women give birth (and some die) at checkpoints, humanitarian aid was blocked from Gaza, all these are war crimes; any nation that occupies another nation is not supposed to treat the people it is responsible for like that. One must only expect an angry response in kind if there is no debate. Now go ahead and call me an anti-semite, or “self-hating Jew” for speaking real facts, because that old card doesn’t really work anymore.
18. David C. wrote:
However, there are many people who think that the wrongful actions of Hamas will not automatically justify anything and everything that Israel might do in response.
Peter challenges: Please explain to everyone here EXACTLY what Israel did that requires justification? Israel was ATTACKED, an UNPROVOKED attack, by a RECOGNIZED TERRORIST ORGANIZATION that routinely HIDES BEHIND CIVILIAN, a RECOGNIZED WAR CRIME. They simply DEFENDED their citizens and their country.
What needs to be justified?
Are you claiming if the US was attacked by terrorists, we would need justification to defend ourselves??? If you personally were attacked by some kook in the street, do you need justification to knock that idiot on his @$$ to stop the attack? Or are you the kind that says, “He must have some reason for attacking me. I must have done something wrong to him.” And then let him continue to beat the #@$% out of you?
Please explain.
Paula, your “facts” are not facts. For instance, Irgun (from which Stern Gang later split off) was begun in response to Arab terror attacks against Jews, including the murderous orchestrated riots of 1921 and 1929. PLO, PFLP and other Palestinian groups have killed any number of Americans, including US officials, students at Hebrew University, and students visiting Israel. Israel does not occupy Aza, and routinely sends aid. Hamas hijacks international shipments of food and medical supplies, sells it on the black market, or diverts it to its own troops and officials. Rachel Corrie caused her own death by trying to play cat and mouse with a bulldozer driver who could not see her because his bulldozer cab needed to be armored against attack and she stood at an angle from which she could not be seen. I could go on, but your post suggests that you are not open to listening.
Sorry Paula. You can rail on all you want about ‘Zionist war crimes’ but the fact is that the Israelis have the right to defend themselves.
You claim to be a humanitarian. If you REALLY care about the Palestinians, then you would be doing everything you can to convince the Pals to just give up their delusions about driving the Jews into the sea. Once they acknowledge that they will never win, then they can make their accommodation with Israel and get on with their lives. But there is the rub isn’t it. The Pals don’t really want to live peacefully. They dream of killing the Jews and seizing back the land. They instill hatred into their children and raise them to glorify suicide bombing. It is the Palestinian Death Cult that is the enemy. And you and your friends, by supporting this evil are only perpetuating the misery.
By the way, all this could end in 6 months. How? Simple. Abolish UNRWA. 60 years of sustaining Palestinian misery is enough.
#11 Butter’s Dad said “Somewhere in the back of my mind I seem to recall that lies and deception are perfectly acceptable in Islam when dealing with the infidels”
that’s from the koran, my friend. started with mohammed.
Paula Marie
You claim to be a Jew, when were you in a synagogue last? When was the last Passover Seder you attended?
Let me help you with your history. First document attack on a Jewish population center Safat 1890. It was a massacre of religious Jews.
There was always Arab raiding of Jewish settlements and farms. Jews had to live behind barbed wire and armed against such unprovoked attacks.
The first Arab terrorist attack was blowing up a truck of explosives in the Jewish quarter of Jerusalem in 1946. Please look it up.
By the way 90% of all UN resolutions are against Israel. It seems to be the only reason they exist. There isn’t that Israel does that doesn’t follow with a UN resolution. None of the Arab provocations seem to be worthy of a resolution.
Believe me Israel doesn’t target “journalists, ambulance drivers, U.N. workers, and more recently, Red Cross workers.” However the Hamas and Hezbollah does hide behind them. Another point is that all these groups you mentioned have been complicit in aiding Hamas/Hezbollah.
There wouldn’t be any check points if there wasn’t any terrorist bombings or suicide bombers. Those poor boys having to man those check points are scared to death. You don’t hear about the attacks on them or the bombers they stop. That’s never reported.
This is what we are up against. Check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LaAvZp7EP4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTGbP55HGi8&feature=PlayList&p=4AE6C59CAA0FC10C&playnext=1&index=1
Please write back. I would love to discuss this with you further.
Just more proof that the so-called “journalists” of the BBC, CNN, etc. are no more journalists than was Goebbels.
They are the propaganda wing of Hamas. They are terrorists, and Israel should treat them accordingly.
The IDF can name and profile over 90% of enemy killed, including civilians, in the most recent Gaza battle?
If that is true, or even close, and I were were anybody connected to Hamas, I wouldnt sleep so well tonight.
The accuracy of the report need not be 100%. This is not a PR piece – it is a precision operation. Hamas knows, and terms are under active negotiation – by various means.
There is no more peaceful negotiation with Hamas. Nobody wants to deal with them anymore. Were I to post this from Gaza I would have (at best) 9mm rounds though both knees tonight.
Smoke ‘em while you ‘gottem,
Spindok
David C:
If you bother to read the relevant sections of the Geneva Convention you would discover that it is the responsibility of the force operating in a civilian area to protect or at least not deliberately endanger the civilian population. Any lawful combatant that fails to do this is guility of war crimes. The force attacked out of civilian areas is under no legal obligation to limit its use of weaponry. Along with proportionality this another common mistake made by Israel’s many critics. Israel went far beyond its legal obligations to warn civilians to avoid areas used by Hamas for military operations. If civilians decide to stay in the free fire zone created by Hamas’s activities then too bad. If they are forced by Hamas fighters to be human shields then Hamas is both legally and morally responsible for their deaths.
Paula Marie–lies,(islam)exageration (islam)
distortions (islam). Islamic terrorism is the
new global threat and America, like Israel, is
the primary target. Paula Marie strikes me as a
chooser of dhimmitude over the truth. How can
any rational person not understand that Israel
is the victim of islamofacist and why no outrage
about Hamas’s genocide of Palestinians who have been tortured and killed by Hamas before and after Israels entry into Gaza? F—terrorist’s.
Islamocrazies are entering the USA. Their goal is to fulfil their promise–conquer America.
Sound incredible? Our government is allowing
islame to get a strong foothold inside the USA.
3,000 mosques, islamics now outnumber USA Jews.
Islamics are in our schools, banking, government,
universaties! Black prisoners are converting to islam in our prison industrial complex and our government is turning a blind eye. Why are we allowing the threat to ripen in the USA?
So why didn’t Israel let journalists into Gaza to show how well targeted their weapons are for just hitting evil doers.
The siege has led to anaemic,stunted growth and illness to children.Carciogens have been used so if they have suvived they will die eventually of cancer.
Lack of electricity has led to reduced school hours,even in school the incidence of deafness is increased without access to hearing aids because of the noise.The children can’t concerntrate are anxious and jumpy with blank hopeless stares.
The mental health of the children of Gaza is apparantly dreadful. Clinging to their mothers and just screaming.
Israel broke the truce.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=410_1230933573
These are some of the injuries the children are suffering.
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israel-must-disclose-weapons-used-gaza-20090126
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/4279102/Bullets-in-the-brain-shrapnel-in-the-spine-the-terrible-
The belief that critising Israel means you support Hammas is so immature.
The indifference to the suffering by Gazans is incomprehensible.
Hammas is wrong to fire rockets into Israel,they are supposed to be the bad guys.
There is no reasons to justify the collective punishment of a densely populated civilian area, where civilians are unable to leave.
Who have been bombarded by land sea and air.
There is no right number or right way to kill children,whoever is doing it.
injuries-suffered-by-children-of-Gaza.html
The ‘well Hammas has made is do it’,only works in America,were any critism of the state of Israel’s actions is met with cries of anti-semitism.
Someone called the entrenched media (I refuse to call them “mainstream”, if they are the main stream, I don’t wish to drink from it…it’s toxic and polluted with lies) “dupes”.
One is a “dupe” if one is fooled by another’s intentional lies and distortions. One is not a “dupe” of one collaborates, conspires and and then communicates those lies.
The entrenched media no longer presents facts, they have an agenda. That agenda seeks to tear down the fabric of Israel and the United States. It has a leftist revolutionary base and it appeals to those who have left of center instincts, many of whom ARE “dupes”.
As seen by one commenter above…some of these useful idiots would rather be seen as “brave comrades” by attacking their own…with the regurgitated propaganda put out by the conspirators slander. It makes them feel part of the “clique” to attack and slander their own. Israel suffers these turncoat fools, so does America.
Both nations have an instinct for the underdog…and the slanderers make use of this instinct to paint them as aggressors and oppressors.
Both nations have an instinct for peace…and the slanderers turn defensive action into aggression.
Both nations have an instinct for fair play and freedom of assembly, speech and dissent. The slanderers use the “book of rules” by which each abides…to beat them mercilessly, while they abide by none.
The entrenched media are conspirators in this slander and attack on the fabric of each country. The BBC is notorious in its treatment of Israel and like every other entrenched media outlet is scandalous in their treatment of the U.S. At home, our media in America is a nest of liars, more intent on presenting a leftist “message” than on producing facts or real news. Everything is filtered through a prism of unfairness, favoring leftist ideology and gang raping our information stream.
Absent a universal demand from good people in both countries, we will lose the ability to garner actual facts or truth. Replacing it will be “what you need to believe”…a filtered “message” of distorted facts and evaporation of “things you don’t need to know”.
Once, a household with vibrant debate over actual facts was stimulating and led to the strengthening of the ability of each member to express a point of view. That is being strangled today. Once, coming to the best conclusion…arriving at the most defensible position, was based upon hearing another viewpoint, or several others…and testing one’s own against all the logic. Today, you believe what the “message” tells you to believe…or you are outcast and ostracized…peer pressured into being “liberal” or “progressive”.
There is nothing…absolutely nothing…liberal or progressive about being a mindless lemming. A little baby bird, hand fed your opinions via a feeding machine which sorts out the “facts” and gives them back to you in little sound bites.
You are patted on your little head and told you are “good” (everyone else is “bad, stupid, not nuanced, evil, greedy, homophobic, racist, warmongering)and you are a “member” in the club of “intelligent” people.
In reality, you will have lost your ability to discern facts from propaganda. To decide for yourself. You will have become a “dupe”. A “dupe” who constantly attacks their own. The useful idiot on steroids. The worst part…you feel no shame for your part in the treason. You would rather be acceptable to your “peers” than honorable to your country. You advance the slander, rather than protest it. What a disgrace.
Mags:
See above for the law of war.
HAMAS is an organization dedicated to the extermnination of Israel and its people. Orwell once during WWII said that Pacifism was objectively pro-Fascist. Today anybody who criticizes Israeli actions in Gaza without acknowledging HAMAS’s stated goals is objectively anti-Semitic.
jerryofva
You said: The force attacked out of civilian areas is under no legal obligation to limit its use of weaponry.
Some people may say that that this position is incorrect and that certain choices of weaponry or methods of use would offend the principle of distinction by having an indiscriminate effect and also one excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated. Many more people would say that regardless of whether certain means or methods of attack fall within or without the parameters of certain legal prohibitions, such means or methods would be morally indefensible.
It is possible for both parties in a conflict to be at fault, generally and/or in a particular instance, and for both to bear a measure of responsibility. The incident near the school may be one of these. Facts remain important. Some time has passed since my original post. As at this writing, regrettably, my questions respecting the accuracy of certain facts in Mr. Hornik’s article have not been addressed by Mr. Hornik or by any posters, and the issues arising remain unresolved.
#31 Mags:
You seem to care about the Palestinian children. Good! No question they are suffering. The only way their suffering is going to end is if their parents realize the futility of their ‘resistance’ and make their accommodation with Israel. 60 years of hate and despair is enough. You can help by encouraging your Pal friends to give up their fantasies of conquering Israel, make a deal and get on with their lives. Nothing else will work.
David C:
Like many of Israel’s critics you seem to lack an understanding of the reason behind the law and customs of war embodied in documents like the Geneva Conventions. Accepting your interpretation of the laws and customs of war incentivizes hostage taking thus negating the purpose of the Conventions. To large extent this has already happened. HAMAS and Hezbollah exploit innocent civilians to protect their military forces from retaliation allowing them to kill and main Israeli or Lebanese civilians. The actual purpose of the Conventions is to make violators pay a double penalty first by being subject to military retaliation and then being subject to post conflict war crimes charges. Had Israel merely fulfilled their treaty obligation and then attacked and destroyed HAMAS or Hezbollah fighters wherever they were found from the very beginning far fewer innocents would be at risk today. A smaller number of collateral civilian casualties at the beginning would have saved far more innocent lives at the end.
Giving you the benefit of the doubt about your real motives your apparent compassion leads to more death and destruction then necessary.
I looked for this head line in the Times and was astounded not to find it. If you can’t trust the Times who can you trust?
Folks, David C. is a professional spin doctor. Its his job to turn and twist everything presented to him. He does a good job. Note how he leaves out any pertinent points you bring up and disregards facts. Muddle what you present and hit back with the same old garbage. Nothing new comes from him.
34. David C. wrote:
As at this writing, regrettably, my questions respecting the accuracy of certain facts in Mr. Hornik’s article have not been addressed by Mr. Hornik or by any posters, and the issues arising remain unresolved.
Peter writes: The only way anyone can get a true, unvarnished look at the facts is to be on the scene personally. If you really choose to disbelieve the reports coming from the IDF, in spite of the fact they have no reason to lie like Hamas does, as any lie would quickly be exposed and harped upon by the Dinosaur Media, then the only way you can get the information you seek is to buy a plane ticket over to the middle east and assess for yourself who is lying and who is telling the truth.
And I can assure you with reasonable confidence, that were you do actually do so, and did such with an open mind and not a pre-determined agenda, you would find out for yourself that the IDF’s reports are either completely accurate or as accurate as conditions would allow, much more so than the Hamas propaganda ever reports.
#33 jerrypva,
Have you ever looked in to why people say they don’t recognise Israel?
Firstly,what counts as Israel,it is the only country with wibberly wobberly borders.
Palestinians have said they would recognise a fully sovereign Palestinian state within the 1967 borders.
So i am anti-semitic even though i have stated that firing in Israel is wrong? Do you recognize
that Israel has been building illegal settlements on occupied land?
Again Israel broke the ceasefire,does Israel want peace.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfFMZ7Y-s_c
When the world wanted to rid the world from communism in former USSR,that didn’t mean that we all wanted to kill all Russian’s.
There is a differents between the jewish people and Zionism .
The Iranian president did not say that he wanted to wipe Israel off the map.
He said that like nazism ,zionism will pass.
Apartheid is south africa is now history.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMrqSsmIlqc
#35 ‘My pal friends’,you are making by case for me.
It isn’t just muslims around the world condemning Israel actions.They are being judged by on this not thier religion.
http://heathlander.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/about-those-hamas-targets/
There is no defeat in knowledge of others points of views.
mags
Welcome aboard!
Lets start with what Ahmadenajad:
1) He doesn’t refer to Israel as a country, it is the Zionist entity. Yes, he has promised to wipe the Zionist entity off the face of earth. Don’t pull something from somewhere when it doesn’t apply.
2) Israel didn’t let journalists into the Gaza theater because of their behavior during the second Lebonan war. Their reporting was excellent in that theater, right down to the positions the IDF was occupying. Hezbollah knew where to aim their rockets simply by watching the news. Hezbollah practiced adaptive warfare, this time the IDF did.
3) the children you describe in #31 sound just like the children living in Sderot.
4) Hamas fired rockets from populated centers. They welcomed return fire just so fools like you could howl.
5) Saying that Israel broke the truce is an open lie only your Mideast buddies would believe.
You’re obviously a Moslem which is OK. Your presentation is clumsy.
The lies are too transparent. Your hyperlinks contained doctored material. Using Dr Gilbert, a known anti-Semite, as a source is a mistake. Everybody already knows what he is.
I don’t want you to quit trying, so keep it up. I’ll be glad to engage you.
I don’t have much “faith” in a evil people (the invading Arabs who call themselves as Palestinians since 1967) that can cause their kids’ deaths only to tarnish Israel’s name.
Oscar the grump,
I am not a muslim or have pals in the middle east.My being clumsy is due to the frustration of trying to explain this.
All around the world including Israel, people have been protesting the actions carried out by the state of Israel.From all religions and nationalities.
Again ,Hamas should not fire rockets into Sderot and i mourn thier loss as well.Can you say the same?
Because Israeli children are suffering then you believe children in Gaza should also? But on a greater scale.
The ability to de-huminase a whole area of the world is troublesome.
I am in the U.K i presume you are in the U.S and we disagree over the actions of a third country.However if i don’t agree that means i am anti-semitic,a terrorist lover,sitting here in a burqua with my house facing towards mecca,with a daughter going to school with just her eyes showing.
I am pleased that you want me to try. However if everything i say or show is deemed anti-semitic or deluded does not help.
Dialogue is the way forward,there is another side to the issue.
Following 9/11 ( i spent the day crying,i still can’t listen to any of those calls by those poor people).
The American people had no idea why? Not to justify it.We all knew that Americans didn’t really know what your foreign policy had been.
We felt that Americans with your belief in liberty and justice, couldn’t condone your actions especially in the middle east.This blinkered approach to Israel.
We agree on the threat of jihadi’s,but disagree on what to do.
Here in the U.K we have had a 30yr counterinsurgency with I.R.A terrorists.
During that time,they tried to kill Thatcher
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brighton_hotel_bombing
Attacked 10 downing street.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE7DA123BF93BA35751C0A967958260
I could go on and on.At no point did we think of fire bombing Belfast from air land and sea.
Or surround Dundalk,where the terrorists were hiding behind civilians.Cut off water,electricity
with no means to get out.
Didn’t use chemical and carciogenic weapons.Or attacked Boston.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_IRA_arms_importation
We have to learn from our history, as in northern Ireland there is not a military solution to Israel/Palestinian problem.
43. mags wrote:
We have to learn from our history, as in northern Ireland there is not a military solution to Israel/Palestinian problem.
Peter writes: The history of the UK and Northern Ireland has NOTHING to do with what is happening in Israel.
Was the IRA’s only goal the complete annihalation of England? No compromise?
How do you negotiate with a people whose states goal, written in the charter, is the complete destruction of the State of Israel? No negotiations, no compromises. Either Israel dies or we continue these attacks.
What is your solution to this?
What is your solution to, when the sovereign state being attacked finally defends itself, the cowards of Hamas hide behind their own women and children, and then rejoyce when they are killed?
Please, I want to know how YOU propose to accomplish a peace thousands of diplomats and decades have not been able to accomplish?
mags
I like the fact that you answered me. You lose the meaning of what you are trying to say with too many analogies.
After being bombarded by thousands of Kassam rockets, was Israel to attack Hamas with pillows. Let me add some other facts Israel was being hit daily not just with Kassams but also with mortars. Right before Israel responded, Hamas switched from the 81mm mortar to the more destructive 120mm mortar with a much more improved range. To add to the mayhem they introduced Iranian Grad missiles and were hitting cities halfway into Israel. The Grad’s destructive power is enormous.
Now come on what would you have done? Issue pillows and tell the IDF to go after them with that?
@mags and other Jew haters
You and other – mostly Eurabian – terror apologist and pro-Palestinian shill vehemently attack Zionism which is nothing else nor more than the Jewish people natural longing for a homeland.
They fulfill the concept and criteria of a nation for they have their own language, writing, history, culture and thousands of years of unbroken ties to that land. And – not lastly – they are rejected and persecuted in every country where they lived.
The hard left and your kind of Jew haters support the independent nationhood of every tribe and ethnic group on earth except for the Jews.
During their entire existence, Arabs were wandering nomads across the Arabian desert, loyal to no nation but to the tribal chief, fighting among themselves. They considered themselves as tribe and not a nation.
Whatever Arab nation came into being was the artificial creation of the Brits and the French and Lawrence of Arabia.
So why do you support the Palestinian nation – which never existed – and contest the right to a Jewish nation which is the essence of Zionism.
Why is that?
Why every nation has the right to exercise their national aspiration but not the Jews and the Kurds? Why you primitive Arabs have more rights than others? Apart from chopping off heads what is your contribution to humanity?
Care to list your achievements?
you folks are pethetic
‘lYING’ is a Hadith in the Koran and obligatory to Muslims to lie whenever it is necessary. Therefore during the Jenin war Israeli Pilots witnessed from their sky-high vantage point some ammusing scenes such as ‘dead Arab corpses’ getting up and walking away … and at other times Arabs may quote ’500 dead’ when the actual figure might be just 50. What’s to stop them? Arabs – or ‘Palestinians’ as they prefer falling themselves! another simple lie – may continue Lying and duping the World because it is a Hadith and they know when one tells a Lie often enough it becomes ‘the Truth’.
Thomas,
I am not a muslim or an arab.An Irish catholic actually.If you belief the only people condemning Israeli ACTIONS are evildoers then you have no insight.
The inability to discuss Israel without being called anti-semitic reflects the lack of depth in the situation.
Ignorance isn’t the problem it’s the illusion of knowledge.
It’s like you having a genuine issue with an african american,and they say ,’it’s because i’m black’.
You know that race didn’t come into it ,but you get accused of racism.
Like OJ Simpson,and the ones that are still banging on about slavery.
There were people in Palestine when we formed the state of Israel.What right did Britian and the U.N have to give the land to somebody else.
The Balfour agreement stated that the rights of the indigenous population be respected.
4 million refugees were driven from their homes and land,with settlers just moving in and they had there citizenship removed.
So a man who was born in Palestine(even if you question the name), parents born there,grandparents born there,great grandparents born there have no rights to return to their land .
However a European jew has the right to full citizenship because God the great estate agent (actually did God write the bible) mentions them.
If there is a boundry dispute does anybody get the bible out to sort it out?
What do you not understand about the words ‘occupied land’. Or ‘illegal settlements.’
On to Gaza,if say a couple days after 9/11 a terrorist with weapons ran into a building in Newyork full of women and children.
Would you shut down the whole of ny,stop the water and electricity,bombared by land sea an air.
Tell civilians to go and then bomb the place they go to.Starve them,refuse humanitarian aid,bomb that as well and think it is funny.
Use chemical weapons against these newyorkers,inluding carciogens so if you don’t them they will die of cancer.
Would Americans blame the terrorists , claiming they are hiding amongst you,you should flush them out .
Would you scarifice hundreds of dead American children to do this.
All life is equal,the children of Gaza have a right to life.
The indifference to this is incomprehensible.
There is no right way to kill a child,any child,the children of israel deserves peace.
That does not justify Israel’s action’s during the seige and assault on Gaza.
I never thought i would see peace in northern ireland in my lifetime.
Tony Blair and Senator Mitchell were big players in the good friday agreement.That is why they are in the middle east.
I would be happy to discuss this if interested.
My achievements,can you see how arrogant that sounds.
Well i am in Liverpool and we gave you the Beatles.
I am assuming that it is directed to the muslim world and middle east of which i have no connection to.
These countries are steeped in history.Do you think these are primitive
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFfHjNximGg
The ability to de-humanise a whole area of the world is astounding?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Rmp-H_qY-Y
Do you think those people should be wiped off the map?
@mags
I hit the nail when I suspected you got to be Eurabian given your foaming at mouth hatred of Jews.
The hatred in the EU running so deep and permeates the social fabric that meaningless to delve into it any further.
Given your inability to compose proper English sentences and capitalization of nouns reveal your questionable level of education thus I don’t intend to explore your intellect in-dept.
You are attempting to de-legitimatize a recognized country and whitewash Islamist terror – which today killed a number of tourists in Cairo – but you are peddling your wares on the wrong forum for most posters support Israel and reject Eurabian appeasement of Islamofascism.
To 49 mags: Quoting you “There were people in Palestine when we formed the State of Israel.What right did Britain and the UN have to give the land to somebody else.” Simply because that ‘somebody else’ was there long before ‘the people’ came rushing in to Palestine from the desert 2000 years ago. If you are an Irish Catholic it is a wonder that you would ask this question because ‘Palestine’ formerly the land of Judea and renamed by the Roman Occupiers 2000 years ago during the Christ period as ‘Palestine’ was where the Lord Jesus was born in his hometown of Bethlehem, preached in Nazareth and along the shores of the Galilee where the Earliest Christians were the Romans and the Jews . One day two thousand years ago ‘somebody else’ was cruelly expelled from his homeland in ‘Palestine’ by the Romans but it seems he has finally returned home and those people who came in to Palestine from the desert and lived there for a while may have to go back home but they would rather stay. It is far better than the desert they say and want to stay. But it is not their ancestral homeland you see as it is ‘somebody else’s. Such a pity.
I do not hate the Jewish people. I hate the fascist murdering bunch of racists who now dominate the Israeli political system. Their attitude is this “We did not kill any humanbeings in the Gaza, we killed Palestinian vermin and they are not humans”. Funny that: Hitler said the same things about the Jews.