Gunned Down in Vegas: What Really Happened to Erik Scott?
Metro Police Captain Patrick Neville claimed a different series of events, based in part on the 911 call that police have not released:
I could clearly hear the officers giving commands to the individual to get him on the ground, hear people yelling and screaming in the background. You could hear the shots being fired. When you listen to that, it definitely sends a chill down your spine.
There are no commands or communications between Erik Scott and police captured on a nine-minute audiotape during which the shooting occurred. Officers not directly in front of the store are heard over the radio establishing a perimeter and trying to block off access to the store’s parking lot. The first indication Scott and the police have made contact is when a officer breaks in to call “shots fired” after Scott is on the ground, already dying or dead.
In another interview, Captain Neville claimed Scott did not listen to police commands:
He does not comply with that order. He reaches for the weapon, pulls the weapon out … uh, at which time the weapon was out of the waistband, the officers — three officers — discharged their weapons.
Others on the scene did not see it that way. Robert Garcia directly conflicts the reports of police:
I was close enough to see this guy’s face, and to see his hands, and to see his body go down.
Walking just ten feet in front of Erik Scott, Garcia exited the Costco to see officers with guns drawn. He heard an officer yell: “Put it down! Get down!”
Then he claims four shots were fired, and he instantly turned towards the victim:
After hearing the shots I see the guy going down. I looked at — I saw his hands. His hands had no gun in it. I looked on the ground because — just, I just did that. I looked down and I didn’t see a gun. I saw what I thought were maybe sunglasses. And a pen.
This matches up with several other eyewitness claims that officers William Mosher, Joshua Stark, and Thomas Mendiola fired nearly immediately after shouting conflicting commands at Scott, giving him little or no time to respond. Four other witnesses within 20 feet of the store’s entrance all agree that Scott never brandished a weapon or made a move that could be interpreted as brandishing a weapon.
A coroner’s inquest is to be held next week, but the outcome seems foreordained. In the past 34 years, only one Metro officer has ever been found to have acted improperly out of at least 190 inquests, and that officer wasn’t charged with a crime.
For the record, the Costco did not have signs posted prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons. Scott did not violate any laws in carrying his weapon in the store. It is quite possible that Erik Scott was gunned down without having committed so much as a misdemeanor crime, and that the officers who shot him will be merely the latest exonerated in a long line from an apparently unaccountable police force.
This story makes me so mad, even my sailor’s tongue is tied. If Costco has any sense, they will make heads roll at that store.
I don’t blame Costco. I blame the Las Vegas P.D. Has anybody been suspended or removed from the force because of this?
No, part of the responsibility definitely lies with Costco. I am so angry that I will cancel our membership if the management does not do something about the ignorant people they have hired. I live in California, and I can see this exact same thing happening here.
I spend a lot of money at my local Costco here in CA. and I too will cancel my membership if Costco fails to fire the people who irresponsibly reported inaccurate information to the police. Also seems to me that Costco personnel should be aware of the legality of a carry permit. Lastly, I never understand why a person who is already downed with one shot has to be shot several more times and by several policemen. This is a terrible story and in this case I do hope that the family sues the h..l out of the police department. Family, please get yourself the toughest and meanest criminal defense attorney alive. I look forward to hear that the police department fired these trigger happy employees, or nobody will be safe under the watch of Las Vegas’s finest.
We don’t know what Costco reported to the police, only the spin the police dispatcher put on it. Since the PD is concealing the recording…
Better than dropping Costco “if they don’t fire the employees at fault” would be to drop Costco and ANY OTHER ESTABLISHMENT which has a ‘no-guns’ policy, which is in effect a “rapist protection” zone. The upper-level owners and managers who make such policies routinely ignore them, live in patrolled subdivisions or gated communities, drive reliable, alarmed, vehicles, and yet think it is perfectly fine to expect their employees or their patrons to be forced-victims of whatever scum is out there to harm them en route to or from Costco. (In this case, the attackers happened to be the largest ARMED GANG operating above-the-law – complete with radio backup and helicopters.)
A concealed carry license does not mean one can carry in a store that post notice of no concealed carry. I live in Texas and costco has posted their stores so I don’t go in them as I don’t like not having my pistol on me.
The store employees certainly deserve action against them, the fact that he carried a gun did not mean he was a danger except in the pea brained minds of the employees. The police acted totally incompetently. They are suppose to be trained professionals, but I guess their dept did not bother with the training, just told the what heros they were and get after those evil gun owners. I wonder what would have been the reaction if he were black.
Sorry, but if Costco wants you out of their store for ANY reason, they can kick you out (except for legally protected classes, such as race, gender, etc). They could have kicked him out for wearing a hat, if they so desired. Just because he had a legal right to carry doesn’t mean Costco has to let him carry in their store. Constitutional rights can’t be infringed upon by the government, not businesses.
That being said, the police are at fault here. What kind of training are these trigger happy militant morons given when three separate officers give three separate commands?
The levels of police criminality and incompetence are astounding, and hopefully the people (and especially the judges) in this country start to understand that, with all the audio and video evidence now being seen.
I agree…it sounds like an execution of an innocent man to me. It doesn’t make any sense.
An execution followed by a cover-up.
Las Vegas Metro: Release the tapes or be forever known as murders.
It is a violation of law to carry a concealed firearm in a store posted contra.
Obviously, when confronted by officers arresting you at gunpoint, YOU DO NOT COMMIT SUICIDE BY STUPIDLY REACHING FOR YOUR GUN. Hands up, on your knees, flatten out’
The “audiotapes” may only be those in police vehicles, which may not have been capable of recording conversations unless spoken into directly. The writer hates cops and this is his 15 minutes of glory, so he may well have neglected to mention this point.
The command to “drop your weapon”, if actually uttered, was wrong.
The most confusing factor is the contradictory testimony of onsite witnesses, who saw different scenarios, dependent upon their prejudice pro or con cops.
If and when the full story is told we may have a clearer picture.
We might note that the dead guy was doing it his way; not the cops way. His living arrangement was immoral. He disassembled packaged items, he carried a firearm right past signs forbidding him from doing so, he ignored police commands- and he is dead. Like Sinatra, he did it his way.
Douche alert.
I like how you know the author is a cop-hater. And how not immediately dropping to your knees is justification for firing on a suspect.
If the man did not have his weapon in hand, will you retract your assinine commentary? Or are you just hoping for the next CCW permit holder to not immediately comply with conflicting instructions in YOUR jurisdiction so you can shoot the dirty self-defense-minded bastard?
One cannot claim “selfdefense ” in an encounter with identified police officers. If one could, then the bad guys could shoot cops left and left with impunity. Try to look at the necessary consequences of what you say before displaying your ignorance.
Hey, check your IQ. Did you READ the article. Erik Scott never drew his weapon, there were no posted prohibition signs, and he never had time to make an agressive movement. By the way, the coroner’s report said a bullet went through his armpit. How dense do you have to be to not realize that if a bullet goes through someone’s armpit and not their arm, that their hands were up? I mean really, apply a little brainpower before you go shooting off your mouth (or your keyboard, for that matter).
Actually, you can claim self-defense against known and identified police. Legally, if the police attempt to affect an arrest upon you without cause, this is considered an assault upon your person, and you can defend yourself with as much force as needed until ultimately killing the offending officer.
Of course, in reality, we all know the police would lie and make up something to justify why you were being arrested, but the fact is, a citizen CAN defense themselves against the police, when necessary.
You should be banned from ever from breathing the same air as another human being.
And who appointed you judge jury on a person’s living arrangement> dipweed.
.. Damn you have ruffled by lovely feathers and I spit on you.
This was an execution.
AND THERE WERE NO SIGNS DIPWEED
Costco has signs at their entrances, in with the rest of their signs.
The article stated that no signs banning the carrying of firearms on their property were posted.
There are no signs posted at any of the COSTCOS in my area. Nobody has so far come up with a written policy from COSTCO regarding firearms in their stores. If they do in fact have such a policy I would compare it to having a policy banning minorities who exercise their constitutional right to vote. Not all minorities are banned mind you, just those who exercise their constitutional rights. Such a policy would last about thirty seconds in an honest court.This is no different.
From watching the inquest it appears one of the main causes of this Vegas DA sanctioned execution was the COSTCO loss prevention guy. In the 911 calls he is behaving like a drama queen who is getting revenge on someone that dared question his big box store authority.At some point when he is lying to the dispatcher about the severity of the situation he falsely claims to be ex military. I believe this gave him undeserved credibility in the dispatchers eyes. Too bad all of the video disappeared….er I mean the video equipment malfunctioned after being left unsupervised for two days at the store….
Nick In Seattle, Costco doesn’t HAVE to post the signs. At any time they want, a Costco employee can tell you to leave if you are carrying a firearm. They can make YOU leave while your armed friend remains. They have that right. They are not the government, they don’t have to obey the Constitution (except for legally protected classes).
They could tell you to leave for wearing a purple shirt if they wanted!
You are scum.
Tiger killer, . Cop groupies are about the most useless thing in the universe.
I have been convinced by this latest
Sure are a bunch of knee jerk hate filled what evers out here. I have expressed no opinion as to the right or wrong, I simply stated the facts relating to Texas and I would imagine if costco in Texas porhibits Concealed carry here, then else where.
It took me two tries to even find their sign, they had a herd of signs at the front door so it is not very simple to spot it.
Actually I did express my view that the police are responsible, but poor training gets the guy killed, had he been black, would they have even bothered him?
The young man apparently made mistakes, but it looks like their are enough to go around, the stupid store clerk, the poorly trained police and so on.
Get past the knee jerk, OK?
My view, by the way.
1) There was no sign prohibiting concealed carry in Costco.
2) You are psychic so you know for certain the writer is a cop hater?
3) Multiple gunshots in the back is not enforcement of the law, it is murder.
4) My guess is that you are a Las Vegas cop. A**wipe.
The poster just before you said that Costco has NO signs prohibiting firearms. The young man had a concealed carry permit, and I don’t think you are required to ask the owner of each establishment if that permit is effective inside their store.
“Hands up!” “Get on the ground!” and “Stand still!” sounds like a comedy movie to me. I wouldn’t know what to do first either. And firing four more shots into a dying man’s body is overkill. Remember the immigrant in NYC killed in his own doorway?
“The writer hates cops”
By that logic, you obviously hate army veterans.
Moron.
“We might note that the dead guy was doing it his way; not the cops way. His living arrangement was immoral. He disassembled packaged items, he carried a firearm right past signs forbidding him from doing so, he ignored police commands- and he is dead. Like Sinatra, he did it his way.”
Wow, that’s a real stretch, even for an apologist for police brutality. The article states, several times, that there were no signs posted forbidding weapons. And who ever said his “living arrangement was immoral”? You are a scary person among scary people. Disassembling packaged items is NOT a crime, buddy. I wonder what other behavior is worthy of the death penalty to you and the LVPD.
Point is, he HAD to leave the store when they told him, permit or not. Costco told him to leave because he was armed, and he legally had to leave.
Why are you people not getting that?
Of course, if he never went for his gun, the police are responsible for his death. But you gun nuts need to learn that when a private business tells you to leave their premises if you have a weapon, even a permit from God himself doesn’t mean you can choose to stay.
For people who whine so loud about your Second Amendment rights, gun lovers don’t actually have a CLUE who is required to respect those rights.
Costco is NOT the government, they don’t have to respect ANY of your rights.
And disassembling packed items IS a crime. It is making the product unsellable.
Go into your local grocery store and start tearing open packages of food, and pulling the safety seals off of all the medicine bottles, and see what happens to you.
Or does having a gun permit allow you to do that, too, in your eyes?
Although I consider his lifestyle to be immoral, it does not in itself justify being shot the way he was.
His lifestyle was immoral is on your lists of why he got shot? What kind of thing is that to say?
And why was he immoral? He lived with his girlfriend before marriage? Dear god. Patience my friend. Forgiveness. Acceptance of different beliefs.
The world will finally become a better place when people such as yourself take a step back and stop all the blind hate.
The article said that there were no signs forbidding guns in Costco, nor is it their policy to do so. And what is a person supposed to do when the cops are yelling for him to drop the weapon? Witnesses say he did not touch the gun, but pulled up his shirt and exposed it. Being on the side of of the cops is a good thing — but being on the side of sutpidity and a possible cover up is another.
“IMMORAL”??? Perhaps in your view, but morality does not play a part in this man’s execution. Try to stay focused.
This “dead guys” name is Erik Scott and discussing whether he should of pulled the gun out or not is irrelavent..they shouted commands and he had to react. Your heartless, this man has a family and this is all you have to say?? You sound as if you were one of the officers involved. Maybe you should just keep your negativity to yourself!
Please reread the story. It says that this particular Costco store was NOT posted as a gun-free zone.
As a former LEO, I’d have to say that there’s plenty of blame to go around in this situation.
For example:
When confronted by the Costco employee about carrying in the store, perhaps the best way to deescalate the situation would have been to leave the store and shop elsewhere.
The store Security Guard should not have mislead police into believing that this gentleman was acting irrationally and possibly on drugs. This kind of misleading information is fairly common, because it is almost 100% guarantee that the cops will get there NOW.
I don’t blame the officers for relying upon the information provided them by the dispatcher. That’s all they have to go on before arriving on scene. I DO, however, blame the officers for (apparently) giving conflicting commands to the subject. And I do blame them for (reportedley) shooting a man who was presenting no immediate danger to them or others.
If the LVPD fails to release the 911 tapes, as well as the dash-cam footage from the cruisers on scene (audio from those tapes comes from microphones on the officer’s person), then they, at least APPEAR to, have something to hide.
Let’s just hope that the saying, “What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas” doesn’t become a self-fulfilling prophecy in this situation.
The family of this gentleman has my sincere sympathy. And I HOPE the LVPD has the integrity to hold their officers to the same standard they hold their citizens.
Smartest post I’ve seen here yet. Kudos, and that’s coming from a cop hater!
“For the record, the Costco did not have signs posted prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons.”
Reread the article, the Costco wasn’t signed as off limits. The man appears to have been following the law. I’m not anti-cop, but I am anti cover-up and anti idiot. If the cops did wrong, they need to be punished. Police enforce the law and investigate violations of the law, they are not above the law. When cops kill without justification, they owe a life just as certainly as if a civilian kills without justification. There is no difference. If the police did their job correctly, then they have nothing to fear by being open with the evidence. If it sounds like a cover-up, and looks like a cover-up…
BTW, I’m a special peace officer, and I encourage people to carry.
“The Costco wasn’t signed as off limits. The man appears to have been following the law.”
Posted or not, when they told him he had to leave, he had to leave. Permit or not.
White Tiger…..”His living arrangement was immoral”????? This man was gunned down in the exit door of a Costco on a Saturday afternoon, and that is your defense??? First of all….maybe you arent a resident of Las Vegas, or maybe you’ve never been to that particular Costco, but there are NO SIGNS banning legally carried firearms on the premises, or ANY firearms for that matter. When the employees were asked where the signs were, because noone else was able to find them after the incident, they had no idea. There ARE NO signs at the Summerlin Costco where this happened!!! The inquest started today. One of the first things to come out of the attorney who is working for Metro said, is that there were 4 commands shouted at Mr. Scott…one of which was “drop your weapon”.
If you want to jump in and pretend you are knowledgeable on this situation….get your facts!
You brainless wonder. How is it that you are deliberately ignoring the repeated reminders that THERE WERE NO SIGNS POSTED AT THAT COSTCO, you incredible moron? Do you work hard at being that deliberately obtuse, or does it come naturally to you? You are obviously the same caliber of person as the twitter pated “security” guard.
It doesn’t matter whether cohabiting is immoral or not; it’s not against the law, and nobody deserves to die for it in any human court, any more than you deserve to die for being a feckless and cold-hearted prick. Judgement and condemnation is God’s job, not yours. Presuming to God’s prerogatives is no less sinful than living with someone out of wedlock. Be certain to pull the log from your own eye before pulling the splinter from your brother’s. We ALL will go before the mercy seat for judgement when we die, where we will be judged for, among other things, the mercy we gave in life, not just the grace we received. You sir, are clearly lacking in either, and will be judged accordingly when your time comes.
The lack of signs does not mean that Mr. Scott could ignore Costco’s wishes that he leave.
Signs, if posted, are merely advisory. There is no requirement to post them. When told to leave, he should have left.
I carry and also a vet. The mistake made regardless of the reason why the police were called to Costco was that the guy did not comply with the police. Tactically “action beats reaction” and if you do not comply with police they are trained to protect their life. If the Vet complied and at least did not attempt to disarm he would be alive today.
If I was a giving someone verbal commands and they said they had a weapon and were not complying I would of also taken the shot to stop the deadly threat.
This is obviously a terrible tragedy for the Police and the man that was killed. Everyone that caries a weapon needs to get the correct training learn from this tragedy.
http://www.usaammo.com/Hoffner-Tactical-Pistol-I-P247.aspx
Please re-read the article, with a close eye to reading comprehension.
Erik Scott was given _repeatedly conflicting_ commands – INCLUDING THE COMMAND TO DISARM, and complied with the one he obviously thought was most imperative, i.e. disarmament. Witnesses have stated he in fact _called out_ “I am disarming. I am disarming!”
He was then shot to death by not one, not two, but _THREE_ LVPD cops. He was shot _in the back_ _after_ he was on the ground, having been shot twice in the chest.
These police officers most certainly made horrible tactical choices that unnecessarily ended a man’s life. If you _REALLY_ are a veteran, and a user and proponent of CCWs, then there is something wrong with you if you are not deeply outraged by this.
Thanks Robert for stating this. I am also a service vet and I understand the
Thank you, Robert, for this comment. I too am a service veteran and I know and understand the law even though I’ve never carried a weapon myself. (I’ve fired the M-16 A1, however) ANY West Point graduate with a CCP should well know the FACT that you need ‘no commands’ from the police when confronted by them while carrying your weapon. Put your hands up and get on your face and allow them to disarm you. PERIOD. EVERY ONE with a concealed weapons permit is taught this. If Erik had been in his ‘right mind’ than he would be alive today. I seriously doubt that the shear numbers of witnesses who saw what happened and heard the commands of ‘get down’ and saw the gun or saw him going for the gun are not all paid off or etc. I also know for a fact that all of those ignorant ‘cop hating’ and generally ‘fearful’ individuals shouting ‘foul play’ will continue to do so no matter what happens. These same people would have been crying ‘foul’ if it had happened any other way for other reasons. Heaven forbid Scott would have actually shot an innocent bystander! The cops would really be getting it then! NOW the foolish ignorant folks are planning a COSCO protest to FIRE THE EMPLOYEE who called 911! WTF?! What is the problem with this picture? People are nothing more than foolish idiots! If anyone should be sued at this point it is the Scott family for causing this ‘stress’ in the city!
Everything I read about this incident doesn’t tell the whole picture. It is still unclear why cops discharged their guns. It is still unclear what was the guy’s behavior.
However, there seems to be the common description of what had caused this calamity. Costco employee didn’t just ask the guy to leave the store premises because he had a gun. The agrument started when he started throwing bottles around, scream and behave erratically. So I wouldn’t put all blame only on Costco employees and/or cops.
As a police officer I would like to ask you not to be a police groupie. People like you are not what any police department wants defending them.
The author did not come off as a police hater, but you come off as a real nut.
I was stunned as I read this story about Eric Scott. I feel like you said, tongue tied.
My god, what kind of people do we have on our police forces? And what was with the 911 call? They should be fired for exaggeration and the police should go to jail.
Surely there is a phone camera recording of this out there. ‘Hope they don’t give it to the police..what about Costco security cameras?
I agree with another poster, these people were drunk on a thimble full of power and took an innocent, accomplished life.
4 shots in the BACK?????
Costco did have cameras – the police confiscated all the tapes and are now claiming that they are unusable.
See the family’s website listed above for meor info.
Now that the inquest jury has cleared the cops and the real character and behavior of the deceased has been testified to, all the ignorant, cop-hating, jump to wrong conclusion via false assumption people can crawl back under their rocks and wait to be rabble-roused by adam henrys like the writer of this pile of deceptive feces.
Point of fact: When one carries a handgun in a holster at his back, and sometimes at his side, the holster is often not attached to his belt, or is only clipped onto his belt and can easily be pulled free. Thus, one can remove bot holster and weapon simultaneously and you, the police officer, only two or three feet from him, will wait to see what he is going do to with it. Right? Not if you want to go home to your wife and kids at end of watch.
If you haven’t been there and done that; not even trained to go there and do that, you are too ignorant of the facts and possibilities to be qualified to make a judgment in such cases. But if you just want to spew venom at those who make it possible for you to live in peace; feel free.
When we pin on that tin target and stroll those dark alleys in the wee, small hours, we know how almost all of you hate us. But we will protect and serve you anyway, because we choose to care about you.
My instincts tell me that Tiger is a rent-a-cop and a real cop wannabee. A professional with any experience and street smarts wouldn’t have made the irresponsible assertions that Tiger made. In fact, a competent professional wouldn’t have even become involved in this discussion.
White tiger is unhinged, and that is obvious. Cops are poorly disciplined at best, with an “us or them” mentality wherein they see all of us as a potential enemy. The LVPD whitewashed this, stole evidence which would clearly show their officers are murderers, and did nothing to dissuade this from happening again. Add to that the fact that they opened fire on him with people all around them and they needlessly endangered the public they supposedly protect and serve. The witness statements and facts available do not lend any support at all to the lies the cops told. They are must criminals with a badge.
Costco had no postings and they are wrong, period. They helped to escalate the situation. This bullshit of half the LVPD along with air assets showing up to check things out further escalated the situation needlessly. At a minimum that department is out of control and needs a serious attitude adjustment via lethal force. As nothing will occur to square them away, the entire population of that city is at risk from their own police force.
This sort of crap is happening all too frequently these days. Recently a DC cop capped some guy’s dog in the middle of a crowd because he could not control the situation, so he just went with the “kill and let God sort it out” solution.
At this point if a cop aims on me, I will do everything I can to kill them if at all possible. I don’t give a shit if they have a badge or not. If they cap me right or wrong, I am still dead and they will get away with it. My .45 will now do my talking to law enforcement for me. With headshots.
This is what “gun-control” actually looks like in practice. They will kill you. He was down, probably mortally-wounded, and they finished him off.
This was cold-blooded murder. But if the government does it, it is not a crime.
The idiot employee was the result of so many years of anti-gun hysteria. He saw a gun. He got scared, because he has been taught that guns are scary, rather than simply tools. He was denied. Perhaps he panicked, or perhaps he was vengeful, but he made up the story of of a wild man with a gun. It was a false charge which led to the man’s death. Will he be charged with depraved indifference? I seriously doubt it. He’ll likely get his 15 minutes of fame, maybe even doing talk shows and get some money for it.
Blood money.
Precisely. I don’t have words. Of course, all of these hired thugs should be damned, and of course, none will be.
“The idiot employee … got scared…”
My experience with store security people is not that they get scared, but that they get drunk on a thimbleful of authority. From the police response, either the security guard went Barney Fife and oversold the situation, or else the Vegas PD is prone to hysteria.
Once a lawsuit is filed, the police will have to release the tape in discovery. If I held any Costco stock, I’d be unloading it before that happens.
“Once a lawsuit is filed, the police will have to release the tape in discovery.”
Be serious. The tape was erased before this article was posted.
The autopsy report being given to the public had been delayed by the ME…
Has this report been released? Or will it be like the police tape?
Not only will the police have tape, but so will Costco’s security tapes, which will reveal the actual “confrontation” that provoked this incident to begin with. The entire event should be on tape from the initial confrontation to his death in front of the store, including the 911 call. We’ll eventually see if it’s a case of Barney Fife getting his panties in a bunch and turning in an overexcited 911 call. My guess is that’s what happened, and the police arrived locked and loaded, expecting — and producing — the worst possible outcome. It sounds like a perfect storm of stupid bureaucratic misjudgments on every level, and somebody died because of it.
Let’s watch events unfold.
I agree/but look at the 4 cops killed in Florida. They knew they were going to pick up a murder suspect at his mother’s home IN MIAMI? TAMPA?JACKSONVILLE,ORLANDO PENSACOLA, PANAMA CITY OR ANYWHERE IN FLORIDA is at the least an imprudent move by the cops. Yes we have a large respect for those who PROTECT AND SERVE,but they unlike those who have a CWPermit have the authority totake a life. This is why I believe those who carry guns should be qualified mentally when the join thepolice forces. Sure anyone can make a mistake but 4 hollow points pumped in seconds.???wtf
You won’t find “depraved indifference” laws in Nevada. Or anywhere else except on TV shows and the rare state where so very many citizens are indifferent and depraved.
The corpse was the indifferent one. Indifferent to the spiritual effect on himself and his livein girlfriend. Indifferent to the store’s merchandise packaging. Indifferent to the signs forbidding guns in the store. Indifferent to the warning from the security guard. Indifferent to the commands of the police. One wonders how indifferent he may be to his permanent residence in eternity?
Man you need to get a life. Try reading the story. There were no signs , and you don’t kill people because they opened a package. You must be a LV cop to be so stupid.
TROLL.
And who made you God? Careful casting all those stones from that shiny glass house of yours. You might want to open your Bible and read the book of Job, or are you one of these people that thinks the OT is invalid?
Either way, get off your high horse and look at the facts – the situation was TOTALLY mishandled. Excessive force doesn’t even begin to cover it. But if you’re too scared to question state authority even when it goes against God’s law (in this case, an unlawful execution)- I guess we’re at an impass.
What part of liberty and freedom do you not understand? Ever read the Constitution? How about the Bible? It sure doesn’t sound like it…
Enjoy your police state, I’d rather be free.
white tiger…seriously, what do you for a living, and where do you do it? I am a Mecklenburg County Deputy Sheriff in Charlotte, NC. Our training is that one officer, and one officer only, approaches the individual to ascertain the situation. Other officers are backup and may have weapons drawn, but not pointed into a crowd of people exiting a store. Once the officer decides whether or not the individual is or is not a threat to the public then they take whatever action is necessary. Necessary action does not include shooting a man without a weapon in his actual hand who is not threatening anyone in any way. These police officers are guilty of 2nd degree murder. YOU DO NOT SHOOT UNLESS THE SITUATION WARRANTS DEADLY FORCE…AND THIS ONE DID NOT!!!
A boycott of Costco comes to mind. And a better way to do it is to go in Costco and load your shopping cart, wheel it to the front, ask to see a manager (perhaps after tallying the stuff at checkout but before paying), and explain you would have bought these items, but you are boycotting Costco because of their managerial ineptitude. No yelling. Smile. And walk away.
Robert, this story makes me furious but COSTCO did not, as a company, do anything wrong. The stupid employee did. The manager was responding to his employee’s inflated story and acted accordingly. These three cops should be tried and convicted of murder and sent to prison. I am not sure but I don’t believe that a state law allows individual stores to “Not allow” legally carried guns. And if they are, a posted sign would have to be present.
A company is nothing but the sum of its employees. Costco’s refusal to make any changes is tacit approval of what happened. Costco is gun-owner hostile, and hey, if the police murder a gun-owner on their property, they’re cool with that.
+10.
The odds are extremely high that this man is dead primarily because of Griggs vs. Duke Power. This 1971 U.S. Supreme Court decision and other affirmative action mandates literally forced police departments throughout the United States to hire incompetent “minority” candidates. Some of the dumbest people alive are now police officers. Social scientist Charles Murray has found that these mediocrities often cannot even write a legible report. They could not pass a legitimate 8th grade school literacy exam if their lives depended on it.
A secondary factor is the police unions. They intimidate police department supervisors to protect incompetent and malicious officers. It is very financial costly and time consuming to bring up charges in even the most outrageous of circumstances. The police are not normally on the side of good Americans. We must stop believing in this myth. It stopped being true by no later than the mid 1970s. Their number one goal is see how much they can cheat the taxpayers. The scandals are sometimes beyond belief. The writings of journalist Steven Greenhut associated with the Pacific Research Institute are an eye opener.
I concur. Seemingly half my fraternity brothers and former classmates are attnys in New Orleans. As far back as the 70s the defense attnys among them were telling me that they won half their cases easily simply because the Police couldn’t fill out a Police report properly so low were the standards.
New Orleans is a bad example. They paid such a low wage that the only way to have police was to allow them to work off duty at strip joints and other less savory “business”, businesses that they should more appropriately be investigating.
Anytime that police are paid poorly you can expect corruption and inferior recruits. Just look at Mexico and other 3rd world countries.
This is one case where I wish a bystander had had his cell phone taking video. That a police supervisor was not present at the front door in a controlled situation is very disturbing
True enough, Michael, but this fact was exacerbated by the dumbing down of the civil service/police & fire exams for reasons of affirmative action to the point where they were little more than ” “Which one of these is not like the other?” (showing 2 apples and an airplane )
These days if you photograph a cop on duty you go to jail. good bye 1st Amendment.
Bad drives out good. Too many officers of low intelligence can make life miserable for those who are intelligent. Same thing with integrity. So now we need to be afraid of the police. Should be the other way around. Shooting people in the back is really bad form. Despicable cowards. The fact that he was given conflicting instructions is proof alone that this is an incompetent police force, the rest is just tragedy. Unfortunately, cutting the police budget will reduce the number of officers on the beat, but won’t cut the number of administrators who feel the need to show up in incident vans with helicopters.
The fact that he was given conflicting instructions is proof alone that this is an incompetent police force, the rest is just tragedy.
Exactly!! Seriously, how can the “suspect” have any significant hope of surviving such an encounter if three different police officers (or groups of police officers) yell three mutually-contradictory sets of instructions at him at the same time? He can’t possibly obey all of those instructions simultaneously! “Drop your weapon” inevitably requires you to lower your arm(s) which is a direct violation of “Keep your hands up”. And I have no idea how you are supposed to “get down on the ground without lowering your hands either to brace you on the way down.
This was APPALLING police work. While I’d like to imagine that all police forces within a given country would approach such a situation in the exact same way – telling the suspect to keep his hands up OR to get on the ground OR to drop his weapon – that’s probably unrealistic. Different police forces may have evolved different methods that each feels is best for them. But surely a given police force should have a uniform approach to such a situation, even if it differs from the approach of a different city or state so that ALL officers on that force have exactly the same sequence that they use in stopping and disarming someone.
The Vegas police force is clearly in need of some major work in terms of standardizing its approaches to such routine actions as disarming suspects. The shooting of Erik Scott was inexcusable under the circumstances described in this article
Hey, their “training kicked in” or some BS like that… God forbid, they’d have to be repsonsible for their actions. Poilce departments have been rejecting people smart enough to earn a college degree for a decade or so now (their human resource people have convinced themselves and everyone else that smart people will only quick and take their invested training costs with them) so this is what happens. Great boon for actual criminals; there’s no limit on intelligence for them.
good drives out bad….exactly!!! it is part of Gresham’s Law which dealt with currencies….bad money drives out good currency…..i am seeing it applicable now to all areas of the social spectrum……police, senators, representatives,
etc. it is now a training or awareness of this phenomenon for good people to be especially alert to their vulnerability to loss and harm. I for one, have been aware of the thuggery and danger of las vegas for a long long time…i’m always on ‘sensitive alert’ there and i avoid going there now.
may the family get a fantastic lawyer…( i have one to recommend through personal experience in vegas) and financial awards from ALL those accountable that staggers their balance sheets so that Gresham’s Law can be modified in this case: ..take the bad money from the bad. Stick the criminal defendants in this case in jail.
1. Do you know for sure the race of the officers involved here?
2. Police incompetence is by no means a new social phenomena; graft and corruption were systemic in almost all major big city P.D.’s up until about the time of Griggs, and is still a problem today in some jurisdictions. And in the “good old days” the officers were almost uniformly Caucasian.
3. For the record, I believe this young man was wrongfully killed. But please, just the facts.
I did get up in the morning, drink a few beers, and begin shooting my mouth off. You should read the insights of Charles Murray and other scholars regarding the rapid dropping of police standards after Griggs and a number of affirmative action policies became the law of the land. Police agencies were literally forced to hire incompetent minority candidates. The lowest common denominator dictated the training of new recruits.
“I did get up in the morning, drink a few beers, and begin shooting my mouth off.”
Whoops! That should instead read: I did not get up in the morning, drink a few beers, and begin shooting my mouth off.
I should add that the lowest common denominator often dictates polices of any organization. What can a teacher in a police academy do, for instance, when they are forced to instruct a number of students in the classroom who cannot even read at an eight grade level? The instruction will inevitably drop to their level.
David: I liked it better the first way.
Personal experience says you are spot on. When a victim of a crime, you need to give them the suspect , the evidence and anything associated with true investigation to get anything done. And beware the manufactured crime (resume building 101), or being a witness…swearing an affidavit is an interesting/revealing experience (I wondered why I couldn’t write the affidavit that I was tacitly compelled to submit).
Nice to hear that someone thinks there arent police depts that are always right. Our local PD is more inclined to give out 6am traffic tickets for “not coming to a complete stop” at a stop sign than they are to stopping illegal alien gangs or Moslem student assn punks. Weve even had to form our own motorcycle “vigilante” gang to protect our own(the illegals , for some reasson, leave the bikers alone. Several in our group happen to be scraming eagles and we even have one former hells angel in the group). Says a lot about PC and local cops. Dont forget, like the teachers, they are Unionized(mistake) and worried more about protecting there own.
Law-abiding citizens are easier to shoot than dangerous criminals who’ll come out with guns blazing… they weren’t taking any chances, you know.
Where do you get any idea that the officers involved are minorities? I’ve read the entire article twice and don’t see that information anywhere. Making charges such as this with no evidence isn’t the way to make your point.
The point is that lower standards overall is a contributing factor. You get what you pay for.
Cases like this, I assume the cops (or other criminals) are “minorities” unless explicitly stated otherwise.
That’s the way the press (and police) work, unless they can put whites in a bad light by mentioning a perp is white no race is mentioned.
Thank you, Mr Thompson, well said!
screw costco. f_ck the police.
its
appropriate police should not be allowed to be video’ed in action. It is only rational…. just like my gritting, grinding, teeth.
And we suffer pensions for this crap (like oakland)?
Im speechless and beyond sad. what has become of us a vet god-damnit.
screw obama and his public sector stimulus. They only respond with indignation.
::I propose something here… I call it the Caffer Curve. it is the conjugate of the laffer curve:
that which measures governemnet function as output/efficiency vs. budget/salary/size. You do the math.
We are on the wrong side; mo money mo problems.
If there isn’t such a thing there should be, for all the money we spent to educate these brilliant thinkers. Amen.
Yeah, that’s the kind of law I’m familiar with. The Bill of Rights? What’s that?
The only way to get the police to respond is to say you think you saw a gun and then scores will show up, ready for battle.
The State despises competition.
Geez, the cops coulda lied?! Who woulda thunk it?One more cover up in a long list of many. . . . How many trolls will come here to scream about this shooting? Maybe if he would have been a gay black transgendered crossdresser. . . and a registered democrap. . . .
What part of “get on the ground” and “keep your hands up” is too hard to understand? Instead, he draws his weapon. The moral of the story here is “Don’t do stupid stuff and the police won’t shoot you.”
What part of “murder” don’t you understand?
@Tarantulas: Check your reading comprehension again. Witnesses are saying that there was no weapon drawn and it was likely that multiple conflicting orders were being given to him.
You must think you are cute. I however think you are nothing more than dog shit and a coward.
Did you actually bother to read the article? What part of
“There are no commands or communications between Erik Scott and police captured on a nine-minute audiotape during which the shooting occurred.”
did you not understand?
Another police department murdered another law-abiding American citizen, and will get away with it.
They did what they wanted and justified it however they could make fit afterward, like most people… actually expect them to function at a higher standard of responsibility and professionalism, forget that– that’s be too much work for ‘em to get thruogh their eight hours and collect their pay. They’re cops, man, “little people” should get outta their way!
READ the article. He didn’t draw his weapon.
What part of conflicting instructions don’t you understand? I guess you are a cop, so the question to you is if you go to a potential crime scene and there are the possible criminals and independent witnesses who do you tend to believe? Do you go with the independent witness or the possible criminal? If you want an opinion I have one like everyone else. One cop misinterpreted the actions of the victim and fired, the other two LEOs just reacted to the first shot, possibly thinking something happened that they did not see. I think this shooting was a mistake and then the LEOs lied to cover the mistake. If they lied and I say if then general pop in prison would be reasonable.
“Get on the ground” and “Get your hands up”? Both at the same time? Let’s see you do it.
It would make a bad impression on your face
“get on the ground” and “keep your hands up” are conflicting instructions. Duh.
Must have been linked from policeone.com or a similar site….
@Tarantulas: “The moral of the story here is ‘Don’t do stupid stuff and the police won’t shoot you.’”
Based on your comment and what it says about your reading comprehension, you should consider yourself in mortal danger.
Touché!
when did he “draw his weapon” please tell us where to find that part!!!
Strange. A man, following the laws of Nevada and the USA, is aggressively gunned down without benefit of trial. Yet the DOJ sues Arizona for trying to stop the human rights debacle that is the open southern boarder. Let’s be honest, we have been propagandized to believe that a man legally carrying a gun is some sort of nut job just waiting to explode in rage and this case proves that out. The positive realities of a self-controlled citizenry is mundane and serves no political purpose. Sad that this fellow was sacrificed on the left-wing’s alter of no guns for no body.
You’re right about society being conditioned by propaganda, mac. Do you remember that live TV coverage during Katrina of some Calif. National Guard troops entering an elderly woman’s home who had elected to stay behind to defend her property and was armed with a hand gun in her own home as she explained why she didn’t want evacuated? And their response to aggressively charge her, man-handle her to the ground, seize her weapon and forcibly remove her from her own home–even as they ignored roving bands of marauding armed thugs? Both the NOPD and various Guard units illegally seized weapons from numerous lawful owners during Katrina. The owners eventually went to court, however, and the Supreme Court ruled all had been done illegally and the seized weapons to be returned to their owners. But by then only 1/3rd of the wpns seized and turned over to Police custody could be found or accounted for. Typical.
But my point is, is that Katrina provides a classic example of just how thoroughly the police and even the avg citizen who makes up the composition of the Guard units have been indoctrinated in the belief that ONLY agents of the State should be armed–that the individual not be trusted to provide for his own defense.
And of course all of this is driven by the psychology and logic used by the drunk who looks for his lost car-keys late at night under the corner street-light instead of where he actually lost them back in a dangerous, dark back-alley “because the light is so much better there.” It is far easier and less dangerous to disarm law-abiding citizens to show one is “doing something” to protect “the public” than to confront dangerous armed thugs who are prone to ignore orders and to shoot back.
Virgil, I believe that it was the local cops who tackled and disarmed the old woman who 2 days later was robbed at gun point. I do know that other Federal Officers disarmed other law abiding citizens as well.
OK…that is insane. Gut that criminally out of control police department. And can we please, finally, end the universal police policy of screaming at everyone whenever cops pull their guns? As in this story, they scream conflicting and unintelligible orders and create more disasters than they avert.
All three of these officers should be prosecuted for murder.
But they won’t be. So many ambulance chasers, perps’ families, and “community activists” have cried wolf in the past, even CREDIBLE accusations of police misbehavior have become harder to sell. And then there are people like Tarantulas, our #8 above, who believe that murder is one of a cop’s discretionary perks.
a twenty-something security officer (and we know how much training they receive), who heard third-hand some guy had a gun and called police. but its the first employee who had the initial contact who is most responsible for how it was phrased to the manager, that set the “mood”. But did the manager seek more information, like: what is the guy doing? or just run with: customer has gun?
We know how much stories tend to grow with each telling, especially if emotion is invovled. Conisdering the extent of the police response, we know that had to have bee some dramatic 911 call. It will eventually be released. A toxicology report on wether or not he had drugs in his system will be released.
The family needs to get their own ME, as I wouldn’t trust a LV county coronor report.
Drugs or no drugs, he did nothing wrong. The LV cops should pay a dear price.
I don’t think he did anything wrong either. I seriously doubt he was usiing psychotropic drugs. My point was after a tox screen is released, it will destroy much of the excuse used for shooting him. Also why I suggested the family get their own ME to do an autopsy report.
Someone mentioned the probability of the Costco security officer doing a “barney fife” (like the term) re: overreacting when calling 911 – I agree, there is much likilhood of that. (it started with the initial employee who objected to a LEGAL ccw) so the police already have an over reactive mindset to what they are responding to, instead of being able to calmly assess the situation. And the cops DID over react – shooting him FOUR times in the BACK????? This is vegas, I expect major cover-up.
How many innocent people must die at the hands of the police? We live in a police state…
Which is why I keep my nose clean every way I can, and silently express my sympathy for such victims as this, with the caveat “You knew you were living in a police state when you woke up this morning.”
I may be a fricking coward, but my wife and kids need a chickenshite breadwinner more than they need a heroic corpse.
Murder. Plain and simple. Murder. This is why I teach my children to have a healthy contempt for anyone in a uniform.
So does your (and your child’s) contempt for those in uniform end when the uniformed member leaves their selected service? In this story do you hold more contempt for the victim, a former person in uniform, or the police currently in uniform? Nothing like teaching contempt based on what someone wears to work! Maybe try teaching your kids to hold the politicians in contempt for they are the ones that pass the inane laws that the police enforce. Or maybe I should follow your lead and teach my kids to hold those who have their names embroidered on their work clothing in contempt.
Not contempt…distrust until you know the situation. There’s a great educational video out there on why not to talk to the police when a crime (that you can be insinuated as involved) occurs…by both a trooper and a defense attorney…everything you say will be used against you regardless of guilt or innocence. It’s easy to manipulate context after the fact remember 12 angry men? Great flick.
Everything you say can and will be misquoted and used against you in the court of law.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik
That’s it (the defense atty version at least)
I’ve never been to Vegas. My feet will NEVER touch the ground there.
Guns don’t kill people. Cops kill innocent victims.
Jaibones: Never happen. The “perp” was a law abiding, white male who served as an officer in the military. Even using that short list, he had three things going against him getting justice for what happened.
As has been already said, had he been a black, criminal, well every MSM outlet would be hawking the story.
When will white America finally wake up to the fact that white progressives hate white Americans. We must avenge this someday.
I have read elsewhere that Costco and the PD are refusing to release copies of what the Costco security cameras recording during the incident. Does anyone here know more about this?
LVPD took possession of the recording AND the backup recording. They’re claiming the Costco tapes are “unusable”.
You should interpret that as “The police damaged the evidence after looking at it”.
If they don’t release the Costco video copy and/or if they are found to have tampered with it then the NVPD administration needs to be indicted and replaced top to bottom.
How can they live with themselves????
Oh, well, that’s easy. They’re swine.
And I don’t want to hear any whining about “split second, life-or-death decisions.” Anyone who hits a girl, steals from a church or kicks a man when he’s down is a swine.
Of course, these guys shot a man in the back, when he was down. Which is doubly swinish.
Yelling conflicting instructions and opening fire without a direct threat are signs of being either strung out on drugs or emotionally unhinged. But to shoot a man in the back while he’s lying face down, you have to be deeply evil.
That’s how they live with themselves.
Where’s Sharpton, the perennial “police brutality” megaphone?
Victim was the wrong skin color apparently.
A terrible thing has happened. It was caused by confusion. The confusion started from the guy who worked for Costco, and it snowballed from there. I’m not saying the cops were entirely innocent, but we have to acknowledge that there was a lot of stupid in the air.
If you’re carrying and you are stopped at gunpoint by the police, put your hands up, and DO NOT TOUCH YOUR CONCEALED WEAPON! Lay down, let THEM search you, and while they’re doing so, tell them where the weapon is.
The problem here is that Erik Scott was trying to be helpful in a very tense situation. His actions were misinterpreted.
The state of Nevada needs a protocol for dealing with people with concealed weapons permits. This needs to be understood by all cops and by all who carry. As for the cops who shot him, if their version conflicts with eye-witness reports, they have some ‘splainin to do.
Probably the most rational post in this thread. I can’t help but believe the confusion started by the employee was spurred by his/her stereotypes of gun owners that was fed him/her by the media and gungrabber types. Terrible tragedy.
Gork:
I think the State of Nevada, or at least the city of Las Vegas, already has a protocol for dealing with people with CCLs: kill ‘em.
Right on. If I had the proclivities of a liberal, I would point to this story about the dangerous atmosphere caused by the anti-gun crowd, which includes Democrats and Republicans both (though more of the former), the subtext being that we can pin a portion of the blame on that crowd. That would be their kind of tactic. And in this case it would be the truth. But I feel too bad for the Scott family to cheapen his death by trying to use it score political points.
“I’m not saying the cops were entirely innocent, but we have to acknowledge that there was a lot of stupid in the air.”
Sounds about right to me.
Cops are always nervous coming into a situation involving a firearm. Add the claim that the person wielding the firearm is on drugs, and they’re going to be even more nervous. It would be irrational not to be. So Scott would have been well-advised to keep his hands far, far away from his gun until the cops felt they had things under control. Then he could sue Costco and its employee for creating the situation in the first place with an exaggerated report. (I’m assuming for sake of argument that Scott’s supporter’s version of what happened is the truer one.)
Nevertheless (again, assuming the supporter’s version is the truer one), one hopes the inquest will find grounds for a criminal indictment of the police. Then a jury can weight the conflicting accounts and make the call on whether the cops committed an unjustified homicide. It certainly seems they might have.
“The problem here is that Erik Scott was trying to be helpful in a very tense situation. His actions were misinterpreted.”
How do you know either of those things? We’ve got conflicting reports, with the official police report not matching that of eyewitnesses.
What’s needed here is an independent investigation. The Las Vegas authorities (including the coroner) should recuse themselves. It’s time to bring in the Justice Department.
“The Las Vegas authorities (including the coroner) should recuse themselves. It’s time to bring in the Justice Department.”
Right, the same Justice Department which has shown such great respect for the voter registration laws of the United States and has cleaned up elections and stopped the over 100% turnouts in elections. That Justice Department will really do a proper job in this case and be an outstanding example to the population of Nevada on how to conduct an investigation.
Besides the problems (sarcastically) highlighted in the previous paragraph the feds have no jurisdiction here. They could not legally conduct the investigation (not that that would necessarily stop them trying). I am not even sure that state authorities could conduct the investigation in lieu of Clark County Sheriff’s Department.
Oh, right, the JUSTICE department. Hey, the guy was white. No way they gonna do anything.
Do you mean Eric Holder’s justice department? I guarantee that they are not interested in this case because the victim is the wrong color.
Folks, this guy Gork has the CostCo tapes.
It’s the only explanation for this nonsense.
Maybe, and without a full hearing of the evidence, we can only conjecture. However, the thing that sticks in my mind is the 1st officer (with a fatal shooting already on his record) firing the first round, then the others blaze away. Sounds very suspect to me. If that’s true, all should be fired and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, compounded by the fact that they’re supposed to be held to a higher standard as armed officers of the law. Frankly, this has been coming on for the past few decades. Whenever I watch a show like “Cops” and see 4-5 officers dropping with their full weight on to a suspect on the ground within 1 – 2 seconds of telling the suspect to get down, I’m deeply angered. In most cases, I think people are stupid not to obey the lawful orders of a peace officer, but I also think we’ve implicitly approved unnecessary brutality that’s represented in “reality TV” like this, and testosterone charged young men (and women) are fired up to show their “studliness” as well. Sad.
The problem is it happens in minor offenses all the time…don’t be a witness to it, you’ll regret it.
Dog pack reaction is common in all “birds of a feather” groups whether in uniform or not. Allowing such specimens to a have badge, gun, or uniform requires eternal vigilance equal to that necessary concerning elected posts in legislative, judicial, and executive government at all levels.
Wow. Do you hear what you just said about how to comply with police when they are aiming guns at you? Un-be-leivable!
First, no matter what this guy did in response to conflicting commands, he might have been shot… because they were all too ready to shoot him!
The implicit understanding in your opinion is that you know this to be so. If the cops see you as a perp and have drawn their guns, you are in truly mortal danger, because THEIR trigger fingers are VERY itchy.
Then, it doesn’t matter if you are a law-abiding citizen, and have a CCP. If you are perceived to have a gun, you are a threat to those cops. A Citizen with a gun is perceived as an enemy, not an ally, by the cops.
Do you know why this guy is really dead? Because he was truly a decent individual, who did not see the police as a real threat to himself. He was confused. He honestly tried to comply and did not perceive his danger, because he trusted society and police.
All these things are implicit in what you said. And you are correct in what you said. And that is what is truly scary!
Have you ever seen confusion in real life? People are in an extremely tense situation, everyone’s lives are on the line, there is lots of shouting, and someone makes a move toward a weapon.
It’s that simple.
Another point: When outgunned, it does no good to shoot. I don’t care if you’re a demonstration marksman. Whether these were actual cops, or perhaps even casual thugs, their weapons are trained on you. A better time to resist will come later.
I own guns. What I’m suggesting is simple common sense when sitting in an armchair. I’ll freely concede that with possibly contradictory orders being shouted, people screaming and diving for cover, and at least three cops with weapons drawn pointing at you, this is not the time to show everyone what a good shot you are.
To address the other posts: I did not see the tapes. But I have seen this sort of confusion and felt this sort of bewilderment. It usually takes a series of bad choices by several people to make something this bad happen. It doesn’t take a physics professor to understand this when reading these conflicting reports.
This post is as stupid as the cops. “Put your hands up and lay down on the ground”. Physically impossible. Stand up with your hands in the air and try to lay down on the floor, without smashing your face in. CAN’T be done.
Pretty pathetic, a law abiding citizen carries a gun for protection because the cops are unable to protect him, and the cops kill him.
The cops blew it and murdered a man. They know it, we know it. No excuse. Send the cops that fired to jail, 25 to life.
COSCO screwed up on their training of the clerks, supervisors, and security guards. The supervisor that didn’t bother to do her/his job is the main culprit in this whole mess. Supervisor should be smart enough, and trained, to know that without posted signs there is no store policy on firearms. The whole mess should have stopped right there. 1 halfway intellegent and trained supervisor could have prevented this whole thing. The store is ultimatly to blame for not training people properly.
a very sad situation.
I do feel that some police and those in authority positions tend to escalate situations that when approached differently would adequately solve any pertinent concerns.
just the facts ma’m.
if the original store employee had not gone out of his way to produce an event out of a non-event then nothing would have happened …this was the USA and many people have CCW permits.
if the facts were given to the police by Costco guard then the police might have approached differently. not that that is an excuse for the police they should deal with people as though they are innocent until they have facts to show otherwise. These guys do not seem like they had adequate training to don police uniforms.
Prayers go out to Mr. Scott’s family.
Instead of boycotting CoSTCO we should all support the efforts of the Scotts in bringing the police department to justice.
You know the police union will throw a lot of money to bury this.
If the police had been justified, the store’s cameras’ recordings would have vindicated them by now.
…to have ones life snuffed out because of such ignorance is really scary. how do you defend or protect oneself from this kind of mentality.
Welcome to the world of big government– this is why our founding fathers decided upon Constitutional protections of our rights.
All customers are suspects in these mega and discount stores. They eye everybody walking in. I suppose they are profiling likely thieves or shoplifters. However, it’s creepy. It is also the sort of intimidating approach that probably does not deter any actual thieves.
It sounds to me like he was murdered. I agree with David and others that a lot of these cops are quite dumb and trigger-happy. They are scared, and lack the mental tools to deal with complex situations. Again – shot four (?) times in the back. Sounds like murder.
His family should sue Costco, the Las Vegas police department, and the individual officers involved for everything they own. This is important not only for the family and friends of this young man, but for the rest of us who carry concealed firearms for self defense.
Sounds like he was trying to comply with a contradictory set of commands, but hia actions were misinterpreted by police who were not well trained. His best move would probably have been to get on the ground and to absolutely keep hands away from the gun, but that’s hindsight. Looks like a deadly combination of fear on both sides, combined with (just possibly) officers who enjoy having authority and bearing arms just a bit too much.
Mr. Scott’s key error though, was in not leaving Costco immediately after his shirt rode up, exposing his concealed weapon to view by the Costco employee. Sure, he had a CHL, but the weapon was no longer concealed. In Texas, once the employee had asked him to leave, Mr. Scott would have a problem with Criminal Trespass (Tex Penal Code §30.05) and Trespass by Holder of CHL (Texas Penal Code § 30.06)– specially the latter section. The exposure was inadvertant, and Mr. Scott was certainly a CHL holder, but his failure to depart when requested (however stupid the request was) was, at the least, pretty rash.
The article doesn’t tell us that the employee asked him to leave, only that the employee told him he could not carry a weapon in the store, to which he replied that he had a permit. I can imagine the employee not knowing what to do at that point, which is why they went to the manager. So I’m not sure it’s really a mistake on Scott’s part that he did not leave.
The next time he was confronted about it was by cops with guns.
Ern,
Read it again…you’re correct. Still, after the employee noticed it, it was no longer concealed. The employee did say “you’re not allowed to have it.” The prudent thing would be for Mr. Scott to leave immediately.
The employee’s reporting seeing the handgun to management is predictable and normal behavior for an employee. Similarly,it’s predictable that management is going to call security or the police — and all any of these people will focus on on is the word “gun.” The CHL and Mr. Scott’s right to carry a firearm is going to be lost in the shuffle. Either way, a confrontation of some kind was predictable if (as happened) Mr. Scott stayed.
In any case, Mr. Scott has a problem once the firearm is exposed to public view. The exposure was inadvertent. But once this happened, the correct move for him was to depart.
IDIOT!!! A concealed weapon which is momentarily in view does not magically cease becoming a concealed weapon for all eternity. Do you thing absent-mindedly forgetting to zip up your fly is the same thing as indecent exposure? What the police did was criminal and the criminal cover-up is now in full swing.
Have you ever heard of open carry laws? You can carry a weapon openly in a holster almost anywhere that doesn’t exclusively serve alcohol as its main business. So what if his shirt roide up?He had a permit, the store didn’t have signs posted, and he told the guard the truth…his right swere being infringed from the very start.
I work in large retail. Employees of any large retail store do not have the authority to tell anyone, or even request, that anyone leave the store. Management reserves that right to itself. Doing so would leave the employee immediately unemployed.
Nevada appears to be an Open Carry state.
@Jefe: “His best move would probably have been to get on the ground and to absolutely keep hands away from the gun, but that’s hindsight.”
From what we can gather from eyewitness reports as described in the article, this is exactly what Mr. Scott did. He kept his hands away from the gun. But the cops shot him anyway.
Eric was leaving the store. He was at the check out loading items into the cart when the employee saw the gun and started giving him a bad time. The checker then called the security guard who tried to stop him from leaving the store. The security guard ran over to the manager who called the polic. Eric left the store and was on his way to his vehicle when he was shot.
This is how America dies, one legally armed citizen at a time. This is what we get for allowing them to give us permission to exercise our Constitution rights. If they can GIVE permission, THEY CAN ALSO TAKE IT AWAY. Or steal it.
Were Erik Scott black, Vegas would be awash with National Guard to stop the rioting. It would be all over the morning and evening news and Al Not-so-sharpton and Jesse Jackhole would be whining and squealing like the race baiting poverty pimps they are for ‘Justice’ for him.
Wake up America before one of you is next.
Seems real odd to take a gun to Costco? Family blog is second hand info and could be fiction. Why the shorted Army career? What is his history of his past behavior. Odd to be opening packaging and then not listen when ask to refrain? How many persons is a shooter allowed to kill before the police are allowed to return fire in Las Vegas?
Why do you automatically assume that the victim was at fault? Do you always assume that the police are infallible? Or is it that only black folks can be victims of unwarranted use of deadly force by the cops?
PJlaw @ #28 commented and asked,
“Seems real odd to take a gun to Costco?”
No, not really. A CCW can and will take his gun anywhere state law allows. What would be more odd is going through the hassle of running home or unloading and securing it one’s car to visit an establishment where it’s perfectly legal to carry concealed.
“Family blog is second hand info and could be fiction.”
Or not.
“Why the shorted Army career?”
Who said it was, and of what relevance would the details be? My personal experience and knowledge suggests a pharmaceutical sales rep earns 4 to 8 times the amount of a junior grade Army officer.
“What is his history of his past behavior.”
As someone whose moniker is “PJlaw” you should know that past behavior (or even criminal history) is irrelevant to a court ehen determining the guilt of a given criminal accusation.
“Odd to be opening packaging”
Not really. I do it on rare occasions, carefully, to verify the item suits my needs.
“and not listen when ask to refrain?”
True. But not odd enough to justify deadly force.
“How many persons is a shooter allowed to kill before the police are allowed to return fire in Las Vegas?”
Such a question is completely relevant to this situation, as the murdered customer neither “shot” at nor “killed” anyone, and the police didn’t “return” anything.
Thanks for playing, best of luck in your chosen career.
“Seems real odd to take a gun to Costco?”
He had a concealed carry permit, hadn’t shot anyone, hadn’t threatened anyone, and hadn’t pulled his weapon. I see nothing particularly odd with that. He likely carried pretty consistently and didn’t go through some, “Hey, honey, let’s take some guns to Costco!”
What is odd, though, is that the police haven’t released the call and I’m very surprised that there isn’t video of the incident. I believe that Costco usually has video of their stores and their lots. If there isn’t video of this event, well, that’s pretty surprising.
“How many persons is a shooter allowed to kill before the police are allowed to return fire in Las Vegas?”
This just makes you sound stupid. What does that mean in the context of this story? The man didn’t discharge his firearm and didn’t have a weapon drawn. What fire was there to “return?”
Look, I stand up for LEOs regularly and I know how tough a job it is–but if everything that I read here is correct, this was bad judgment that ended up in an innocent man’s death.
First, the Costco security system surveillance video recordings were deemed “unusable” by Metro’s “Tower” fix-it guys. The video-data hard drives were whisked out of state, ostensibly to a forensics lab. The tape of a 911 phone call made by a cocky little twenty-something Costco security guard—a wannabe-cop who unleashed the horror that killed Erik—was deemed “part of the investigation” and could not be released to the public.
Sheriff Gillespie later “discovered” that a few critical video cameras were suddenly non-functional on that critical Saturday in July. Worst of all, Metro investigators could only locate a handful of eyewitnesses, who supported the shooters’ version of this senseless tragedy: That Erik had a gun in his hand or “made a furtive movement,” which supposedly justified killing him in cold blood.
http://erikbscottmemorialblog.blogspot.com/
What shorted Army career? He was a 1994 graduate of USMA. 1994 +5 years of service required after graduation = 1999. It’s now 2010. Not every graduate serves 20 years.
If he had any kind of reserve affiliation, I say send in Army CID to investigate. Hell, send CID in anyway. He was a West Point graduate, for God’s sake, and seemingly murdered by an out of control civilian police department.
There’s nothing odd about taking a gun to Costco. Most CCW holders carry everywhere. It would be odd to disarm just because you are going to Costco. It’s like saying to someone, “isn’t it odd to be carrying an umbrella in Costco?” Why?
What do you mean “shortened Army career”? He was a 1994 grad. His term of service would have been up in 1999.
Are you saying because he didn’t service 20 years he MUST have been thrown out?
Before you start casting aspersions, would it be too much to ask for you know know what the hell you’re talking about?
My brother was a 1994 graduate of Annapolis (USNA) and got out initially after 6 years of great service. After a couple of years in the civilian world he decided he wanted to get back in and did. There’s nothing unusual about doing your 5 and getting out.
Big box store parking lots are favored areas for muggers.
Big box store parking lots are also favored areas for illegal aliens to hang out, hoping for some work. What is your point?
My point is that you are unable to read the post I was responding to:
“28. PJlaw Seems real odd to take a gun to Costco?”
Costco is a big box with a big parking lot, and such places draw muggers. What do day laborers have to do with anything?
No, what is odd is your ignorance of the 2nd Amendment and CCW laws.
You mean ignorant like all the gun advocates not understanding that Costco can tell anyone with a gun to leave their store, even if they don’t have signs posted? And that said person must leave the premises immediately?
A permit to carry a gun does not mean a person has the right to carry a gun wherever they want. Costco has the right to eject that person from their store.
Talk about ignorance of rights, carry advocates are a braindead lot, for certain.
You sound like an expert, PJ. How about posting a list of all the places that – in your lofty opinion – aren’t “odd” for concealed carry. I for one want to make sure that I only carry in PJ Approved Areas.
“Seems real odd to take a gun to Costco?”
This is how liberty dies, folks.
A lot of West Pointers do not make a career of the military. They get out after their obligation. It is not unusual. How many people do you know that went to West Point? The ones in my family that went got out after their obligation and finished their careers in the reserves. Eric had the permit because he worked for a medical equipment company and was often in undesirable parts of town after dark assisting the people with their equipment.
First, let me be clear about two things. Based upon the account presented here, which admittedly is the only one I’ve read:
(a) Costco employees and their management overreacted out of ignorance, and thus bear a portion of culpability in this man’s death.
(b) Metro police murdered this man in an act of professional negligence.
That said, I’ve taken two CCW classed in Ohio, at two different locations, five years apart. Both instructors emphasized two aspects of responsible CCW:
(1) Never, ever, ever let the shape of your concealed weapon print through clothes… much less be exposed via a raised shirt. One instructor even gave the specific, now presciently chilling example: “If you are in a grocery store and you reach for an item on the top shelf, and the hem of your shirt lifts to reveal your weapon, is it concealed? No.” Students are warned that display, whether it be intentional or unintentional, of a weapon by a legal CCW can induce panic among the non-carrying community, which can have serious consequences.
(2) Never, ever, ever touch — or even reach for — your firearm in the presence of a law enforcement officer. One instructor said not to do so even if told, and give the officer permission to remove it from you. Five years later, the second instructor advised notify the officer his order is unlawful and dangerous, and (again) encourage the officer to remove the loaded weapon himself.
Do either of these mistakes justify the murder of Mr. Scott? Absolutely not, and those culpable should be prosecuted under the fullest extent of the law.
However, those who practice CCW should read the account of Mr Scott’s murder with caution, and keep in mind never to expose or reach for your firearm in the view of the public, much less the police.
00stephen, I agree. Having held CCW permits in 2 states over the years, a large part of the classes were devoted to the guidelines you have listed. As far as I am concerned, these were much more important to the applicant’s safety than the time on the range (which is perhaps more important to the PUBLIC safety than the CCW holder’s.)
“One instructor said not to do so even if told, and give the officer permission to remove it from you. Five years later, the second instructor advised notify the officer his order is unlawful and dangerous, and (again) encourage the officer to remove the loaded weapon himself.”
In a one on one confrontation, it’ll never happen. Which, in my 12 year experience of carrying concealed, is the norm for traffic stops. It puts the cop at a tactical disadvantage. #1. He has to get within arms reach of you, and #2.One of his hands are full, the other hand is empty, but BOTH of your hands are empty. (At least in Texas. Your CHL is tied to your license plate. They know that the likely driver is a CH Licensee as soon as they call in your plates. I have never been disarmed during a traffic stop, nor even asked to remove it & leave it in the truck.)
I can understand that a lone police officer would be leery about removing a suspect’s firearm by himself for the exact reasons you’ve stated. Wouldn’t the better course of action be for the lone police officer to call for backup while insisting that the suspect keep his hands up?
I should mention that I am not and have never been a police officer. I’m basing these remarks almost entirely on TV shows which I know are not always realistic. I can well imagine that there are cases where backup is not close by, such as in rural areas, or the officer’s radio is out where he doesn’t feel safe waiting for backup or knows that he can’t get any.
But wouldn’t a call for backup – when possible! – be safer for the officer AND the suspect than asking the suspect to disarm himself or having the officer do it?
As has been my experience being the stoppee, once the plate check comes back, the cop actually becomes friendly. I’ve been stopped on the side of a infrequently traveled road & shot the bull with the single officer over the merits of 9mm vs. .40 vs .45. and let go with a warning.
If someone is stopped & the plates don’t come back as the owner having a CHL, they can keep him covered, have him lie down very slowly, then remove it.
Another rule:
When police officers have pointed guns at you, raise your hands in the air and keep them up until the officers themselves pull your hands down to put handcuffs on you.
“Never, ever, ever let the shape of your concealed weapon print through clothes”
Sorry, OOStephen, but open carry of a loaded handgun is also completely legal in Nevada.
Open Carry in Nevada is legal, as defined in the statute copied in the comments below. Unfortunately, as defined in the statute copied in the comments below, Erik was not practicing Open Carry in legal accordance with Nevada’s code.
Regardless of whether you want to characterize his carry method as haphazard concealed carry or haphazard open carry, the Ohio instructor’s point remains pressingly valid: “display, whether it be intentional or unintentional, of a weapon by a legal CCW holder can induce panic among the non-carrying community, which can have serious consequences.”
WOW, Sitting here reading this I cannot believe that this happened. It really makes me wonder, as a Veteran and legal CCW holder, am I next? Is my death coming due to solid ignorance and stupidity? I honestly do not know how every Veteran, and CCW permit holder(or basic believer in the 2amendment) in NV and even the US is not at war with these people right now. Really makes me wonder how close to Civil War we are.
I also wanted to thank Bob Owens and Pajamas Media for having the balls to publish the whole story, I read this same incident on a news station, and all it said was that a Vet who was acting crazed and waving a weapon in a busy store was shot and killed.
makes you love our whole news system doesnt it?
“These guys do not seem like they had adequate training to don police uniforms”
I’ve posted on this subject before. As a former US Marine weapons instructor, and Law enforcement firearms instructor, I’ve spent hundreds if not thousands of hours in firearms training as a shooter and teacher with cops from all over the country.
My opinion of “law enforcemnent” proficiency with firearms is not high. As alluded to by others here, it is a combination of character issues, discipline, and weak training modules.
We tend to get the wrong type of poeple, with superman attitudes, and not enought disciplined training to beat the smugness out of them. Union bums, with guns.
Recently in a town nearby, (Warminster PA) a SWAT team (as if we really need one) fired about 100 shots from several select fire MP-5′s at a teenager with a bb gun, who was walking AWAY from them. Yeah, they killed him, with I believe less than 10 hits out of the 90+ rounds of full-auto they cranked off in his “general direction”.
I say general direction, because dozens of stray rounds struck several homes in the area (crowded suburbs)as high as the second and third floor when all this wend down at ground level.
And of course there was little or nothing as far as outrage or comment on their insane conduct. Not in the papers, or TV, no follow up, no interviews or comments, mostly because this is the “White Burbs” north of Philly, and there is no political expediency in exposing incompetent white cops shooting up a white neighborhood.
Taxes are high, all the cops have full size SUV’s, lifetime pensions and money to burn on SWAT toys they cant wait to play with. DUI’s, and speed traps are revenue producers, but dont call if you need help. They wont come. Union bums, with guns.
Remember, politicians and cops are part of “the Machine”, they are on the inside, and view the world as us verses them. They are NOT our friends or saviors. Liberals will undercut them in THE CITIES when they can score points with minority voters, but the Teachers Union is the teachers UNION, and they will never call out waste, fraud, mismanagement overspending or incompetency in another UNIONIZED GOVERNMENT WORKFORCE. Ditto for the news media, hence the virtual news blackout on the Warminster (Warrington?) Pennsylvania SWAT fiasco.
If you tell them it is we the citizens, who allow THEM the police to be armed, not the other way around, you will be viewed with untold suspicion. I had this conversation with the Chief in my town (Newtown PA) when half our local 4 man police force was gunned down in a single incident due to poor training. They do NOT believe in the Second Amendment, they do NOT believe anyone should be armed but by THEIR consent, and they would NEVER give it if they could.
They expect and accept armed CRIMINALS, but an armed CITIZEN execising their rights is something they cannot fathom. We are all considered especially dangerous, because they cannot fathom that we are actually FREE.
Union Bums with Guns…pretty apt description of many, especially at the local and county levels.
SEIU with a badge… left/liberals must be proud (after all it’s their vision of utopia).
It’s funny than that liberals are the ones who decry police abuse and militarization, while the right wing praises law enforcement as heroes who should never be questioned. After all, it’s the right wing who always claims, “Why are you afraid of the police snooping into your life if you aren’t doing anything wrong?”
Union members or not, the right wing loves the abuse of police power, while the liberals actually have the balls and respect for the Constitution to stand against it.
The officers will act properly when their lives are in just as much danger as ours. Their home addresses should be plastered all over the internet.
I am ready for our race riot….when does it start, I have to get time off from work…..
Wow! The police kill someone and then lie about it, who’d have ever imagined that. I was just assured yesterday on another post, defending a police killing, that the police never lie. The only justice Mr. Scott’s family will receive is at the hands of those some on this list are calling ambulance chasers.
Greg Marquez
To CCW holders reading this:
1) DO NOT EXPOSE YOUR GUN.
2) DO NOT IGNORE A STORE WORKERS REQUST TO LEAVE THE ESTABLISHMENT
3) REALIZE THAT IF YOUR GUN IS EXPOSED THEY MAY CALL THE POLICE WITH ‘MAN WITH GUN’.
4) WHEN TOLD TO GET DOWN BY POLICE WITH LEVELED GUNS, GET DOWN!!! DON’T ARGUE (that may come later as the police get your ID and determine the facts.)
I am not saying what was done by the police was right, but… when you pack a gun (and I do, I have a Texas CHL) I try not to expose it and if asked to leave, I leave.
Everyone involved with this tragidy did stupid things (yes the cops saying ‘get down… drop the gun’ is confusing) and someone ended up dead. Keep that in mind.
Again, it’s not clear from this article that he was actually asked to leave, only informed that he could not carry a gun in the store, which seems at this point to be incorrect. It’s also not clear what sort of commands Scott was given, and it appears that he probably received conflicting commands. Your list of suggestions is fine, but it’s not altogether clear that they would have made a difference in this case.
If a store employee told me I couldn’t carry, I’d show my CCW. If I had any doubt whatsoever that the employee wasn’t 110% satisfied with the CCW permit, I’d leave the store immediately. I might leave anyway if a crowd was nearby. People who are scared of guns will do stupid things. I’m not going to hang around for something stupid to happen. I’m not saying that Mr. Scott is in any way responsible for what happened. I’m just saying I wouldn’t hang around if I failed to maintain concealment and attracted the slightest amount of attention.
Maybe the LVPD and the Cheshire, Connecticut PD should have some sort of officer exchange program.
This story also reminded me of the Connecticutt one, in reverse.
The question becomes, if LVPD has declared open season on us, do we just avoid Las Vegas completely or do we agressively lead a boycott of Las Vegas?
And at what point does a government become illegitimate? If the government agents will not obey the law, and if the courts will not enforce the law against them, what legitimacy is left to the government, and what obedience to the law and the officers of that law do we owe?
This case has not yet been before the courts. Let’s not write the system off until it has had a chance to work. I don’t blame you for being skeptical under the circumstances but justice _sometimes_ triumphs so let’s give it a chance.
Under your scenario one must decide whether they have more patience than George Soros has potential for buying the other officers of the court that may be involved in the charade even when the outcome of a followup civil case depends heavily on conviction in the criminal case.
Hank:
Erik Scott will have to wait for all eternity for “the system to have a chance work”.
Please explain how you think “justice” will “triumph” for him.
Al Sharpton to stage protest rally and Bruce Springsteen to write a song in 5…4… Oh, it’s a white guy? Never mind. Move along.
I got to see the Metro police in action first hand about 10 years ago. I was on a flight from PDX to Las Vegas. An intoxicated woman started hitting a stewardess with a few solid rights. Fortunately, the Portland State wrestling team was on board and quickly subdued the woman in the rear of the aircraft. When we landed the Metro police came on board and made it impossible for the passengers in the last 5 or 6 rows to de-plane. The police obviously came aboard with some preconceived notion that the air rage incident involved a male. A gentleman caught in the back of the plane attempted to inform the police that the suspect was a female and they told him to shut up. The man continued to talk and I heard an office state “now I suppose that he will tell us that his taxes pay our salary.” The man said “they probably do.” The next thing I saw was the man being handcuffed and lead out the rear of the plane. I then informed the officer closest to me that they had just arrested the wrong person. I was immediately threatened with jail if I said another word.
When I got off of the plane, I waited for the Metro police to come out. When they did, I informed them they had arrested the wrong person and that they needed to write down my contact information so that the arrested man’s attorney could contact me as a witness in any potential prosecution. The police refused. I then went to the Metro police office in the airport and requested to speak to the supervisor on duty. I informed the supervisor that I had witnessed the police arrest the wrong individual. I also informed him that my name and contact information needed to be on the polcie report(s) so that the arrested individual’s attorney could contact me as a witness. The supervisor flatly refused to take my card or write down my contact information.
Did they at least manage to arrest the intoxicated woman without shooting her to death?
Did you ever hear anything further on this incident? (I’m guessing you didn’t since you presumably didn’t know anyone’s name but maybe the media reported on this.) Was the man who was mistakenly arrested released? Did he get an apology for his mistaken arrest or even some form of compensation?
When I returned to PDX, I wrote the airlines, Metro and the City of Las Vegas with my full story and a request that my name and contact info be given to the man’s attorney. I did not hear from the man’s attorney. The airlines sent me a form letter thanking me for my patronage. A most ridiculous response. The City of Las Vegas did respond and I understand that an officer received some sort of discipline from the event. I do not have much faith that the City’s response was accurate. They refused to provide any of the officer’s names, nor did they confirm that they had conveyed the info. The discipline was not revealed either.
The offending female was also arrested.
El Jefe Maximo: “Sure, he had a CHL, but the weapon was no longer concealed.”
Nevada as an Open Carry state rated as “Gold Star” by OpenCarry.org.
Rather, Nevada “IS” an Open Carry state. Not enough coffee yet.
Here is an update from today:
Scott Family Not Allowed to View Coroner’s Evidence
Posted: Sep 16, 2010 6:38 PM CST
LAS VEGAS — According to a letter sent from the Clark County Courts to the family attorney of Erik Scott, the man shot by police outside a Summerlin Costco, the family will not be allowed to view the evidence to be used at the coroner’s inquest before the proceeding.
In the letter, Staff Attorney Joe Tommasino says county code does not “contain any language that would enable inspection of evidence before the time of the inquest.”
Read the letter sent to Attorney Ross Goodman
The Scott family filed a motion with the court to allow a representative to view the police evidence before the inquest to better prepare for questioning of witnesses.
Scott was shot and killed by police while walking out of a Summerlin Costco. Police were called by Costco employees who said he was acting erratically in the store and had a gun.
Goodman, meanwhile, said in a statement, “The failure of the presiding officer to respond to the motion granting the victim’s family access to the same evidence gathered by Metro and the District Attorney’s Office over the last several months proves that this ONE SIDED process is nothing more than a rubber stamp to clear officers of any responsibility in the arena of public opinion.
Absent judicial intervention, Metro and the District Attorney’s Office are free to present the police version unfettered by any judicial scrutiny guaranteeing another justifiable finding based on reckless conduct. Unfortunately, the Erik B. Scott inquest will serve as nothing more than BAD reality TV at taxpayer’s expense.”
As another Texas CHL holder, let me reiterate what Paul said, because he is absolutely right.
The fact a store does not have a sign prohibiting handguns does NOT mean you can carry inside the store with impunity – if you are informed by a representative of the store that you may not bring a gun inside, that is the SAME as the sign – you must remove your firearm from the premises. Period. No gray area, no argument. This was a mistake on the victims part – he should have apologized and left. He can tell them he has a CHL license, but unless he is then told he and his firearm can stay, the gun has to go.
There are a number of good conceal holsters out there. Get one. No reason to be carrying it handle out with an untucked shirt. Part of your responsibility as a CHL holder is to obey the “C” part.
That said, this seems like a wholly unnecessary incident with very poor decisions made by all involved, but especially the police, who are supposedly trained and are acting under the color of the law. A police officer must meet the same standards for firearms use as a citizen would under the same circumstances – you can’t just shoot because ‘you da police’. I hope if there is culpability involved, it is addressed aggressively and fully considering the results.
As another Texas CHL myself, we need to leave Texas out of it.
Nevada is an open carry state.So as soon as his “concealed”
handgun was exposed, he was carrying “openly”.
http://www.opencarry.org
From reply #40:
40. Spade
El Jefe Maximo: “Sure, he had a CHL, but the weapon was no longer concealed.”
Nevada as an Open Carry state rated as “Gold Star” by OpenCarry.org.
http://concealeddefense.net/gun_lawsupdates
Open Carry
In Nevada, you may carry a loaded or unloaded firearm on your person without a permit so long as the firearm is fully exposed (known as “open carry”). An example of open carry is when a handgun is carried in an “outside the pants” hip holster. Full or partial concealment (such as a purse, jacket, etc.) is considered “concealed carry” and is discussed below.
Concealed Carry (CCW) History
On July 7, 1995, Senate Bill 299 was signed into law, and soon afterward, thousands of Nevada residents took advantage of the State law that allowed them to carry a handgun concealed upon them. A steady stream of Nevadans have been obtaining carry of concealed weapon (CCW) permits ever since. In 1999, Assembly Bill 166 improved upon the existing law by making legal concealed carry possible in more public places.
Regardless if open or concealed, if he was informed that it is the proprietors policy not to allow firearms, concealed or non-concealed, he should have immediately left the store and placed his firearm in his vehicle or left entirely.
so for this he was shot 4 times in the back?
I don’t know the specifics of Nevada’s open carry law. However, in New Mexico retail establishments can, of course, prohibit the carrying of firearms. However, they are required to post a notice of such a prohibition. Without such notice, they are not permitted to ask a CCL holder to leave (for carrying a firearm).
There should be criminal and civil suits filed against LVPD up and down the command chain.
Sue the Costco employees, especially the manager and the security guard who called police. Sue the security guard company for sending out an untrained POS on the job, one who was willing to lie to ensure police come quickly to deal with a citizen who was exercising his constitutional right to bear arms. Sue the police for the unlawful murder of a peacefully armed citizen. My goodness! This story tells a tale of murder by police. MURDER! And the police will get a pass?!?!?
It is almost certainly not the case that, as Mr, Scott unfortunately believed, that a concealed wapons permit confers a generalized “right” to carry it anywhere not specifically prohibited by statute. In fact, store management were almost certainly within their rights to ask him to leave once his weapon had been exposed. Unfortunately, many people who take special interest in gun rights issues, by reading gun-friendly literature and the like, become very wound up in the idea that their right to walk around armed is essentially gold-plated and immune to challenge by other private entities. I have a guess, and it’s only a guess, that this is what led to his foolhardy refusal to leave when asked. After all, they can tell you to leave just for not wearing shoes, even though in principle it’s your right to go about barefoot.
Now, none of that vindicates the police, and I would add that it is almost certainly the case that the Costco staff involved were also under the influence of decades of misinformation, liberal anti-gun hysteria, Clintonian fear-mongering of gun owners and the right generally, etc. And the police need to actually investigate a situation before just deciding that some flunkie working security for Costco necessarily understands the meaning of the word “erratic” and will deploy it in a reliable fashion. There might very well have been criminal negligence on their part, and I am inclined to believe that they shot an innocent man because they are stupid, and that they are covering that fact up because they are corrupt.
However, if you walk around with a firearm, you had better recognize other other people’s property rights as well, and you need to remember what the weapon is there for–not as a public assertion of your will, but as a tool for use in circumstances of only the very greatest extremity. And for God’s sake, if the cops are pointing guns at you in a public space, DON’T REACH FOR YOUR WEAPON.
“And for God’s sake, if the cops are pointing guns at you in a public space, DON’T REACH FOR YOUR WEAPON.”
Even with the cops yelling DROP YOUR WEAPON!!! ?
It seems, based on what I read, that he was trying to obey an order some officers were giving him while others had a different idea. One of the officers took his obedience to another officer’s orders wrong and opened up. LVPD training is to blame here, in that there was confusion about what orders to give to a suspect.
We see nothing at all indicating that he was directed to leave by any representitive of Costco, nor that the person who said Scott could not carry in there was identifiable as an employee of Costco.
The only thing to do with conflicting orders like that is to freeze. Don’t even turn the head, don’t lean anywhere, don’t twitch. Try not to cough or sneeze.
How do you lay face down on the ground with your arms raised?
Hands up, on your knees, flatten out. Thats how. Now that the inquest showed the real facts don’t you feel silly?
It’s almost impossible to believe that there is no video of this event. Most retailers have video cameras everywhere.
The Costco video has been confiscated by the police, and they are claiming it’s “unusable”.
Basically, the evidence implicates the police, so they destroyed it.
I hold a CCW permit and carry every day. Until Nevada stopped accepting Utah licenses, I carried in Las Vegas frequently.
My thoughts on this unfortunate event are in agreement with Paul (#35).
a) Costco handled this wrong
b) the police handled this wrong
c) but mostly, Mr. Scott handled this wrong.
Of the three, I’d say Mr. Scott is mostly to blame. As much as I want to support a fellow gun owner, he did not handle the responsibility of gun carrying well. At least not based on this one report I’ve read. He should have carried his gun in a more concealable fashion. He should have left when asked. And he should have followed police instructions precisely.
Now maybe they shot him with his arms up. But… he should have just left when instructed. He had that responsibility, to himself, to his family, to the police, the public, and to fellow CCW holders.
Ranting on about how events like this are the “death of America” is just silly. I’ve got plenty to be irritated at police about, but them being jumpy about a guy with a gun is low on that list. If he had behaved responsibly, it wouldn’t have escalated.
Sir, I recommend you re-read the (!!!) article.
“Get down”
“Hands up”
“Drop the weapon”
How is he going to do all of those “precisely”???????
How is he going to “drop the weapon” if it is in a holster and he is supposed to keep his hands up?
I am getting really sick and tired of all these ‘experts’ saying Scott’s responsible because he didn’t conceal his weapon they way they need to in Texas or Florida.
This was in Nevada. It is an open carry state. He was never asked to leave. Given the fact that he wasn’t on drugs or acting erratically, it’s hard to know what went down with the initial employee beyond the fact that he embellished the situation in a panic.
End of the story: it is OK to open carry in Nevada anyway. This man was calmly complying with an order to drop his weapon. He said ‘I am disarming’ and slowly tried to comply with this command.
I’ve read a few people say the poor cops were in a panic, and that’s why they were shouting and you have to predict that. OK, sure. But Scott was blindsided with a platoon of screaming men threatening death if he didn’t “drop his gun”. So he complied and was killed anyway. Of course Scott’s reaction was amazing, considering the circumstance, and people should consider just how hard it would be to react perfectly in that situation.
I suspect Scott was dead as soon as the cops were called. They pointed a gun at him, told him to do something, and killed him when he said he was going to do it and complied.
That’s not a reliable conclusion judging by the events in #39 above. I learned the hard way that a criminal’s reaction is more predictable than a reaction by any court officer from a rookie to a DA if your identity is unknown. Psychosis is more common than you may care to admit both in uniform and out. A paranoid psychotic learns very quickly how to convince a psychiatrist that he’s not. Belligerence seems to be an attempt to elevate their self esteem but often backfires for all of the above
This is an incredible story of police STUPIDITY and lack of training. They obviously don’t even know the law. COSTCO employees are poorly trained; COSTCO management doesn’t know the law; and COSTCO Security is despicable.
The bottom line is that these police officers who killed this man have to be fired and possibly go to jail for a period of time. The Las Vegas police department has to undergo INTENSIVE TRAINING and instructed in the LAW IN NEVADA.
This never should have happened.
Simple: if the officers are not prosecuted, I’ll never go to Las Vegas. Boycott the city.
Exactly. If there are no incentives for cops to NOT shoot innocent people, the entire city is a hazard. Avoid it for safety’s sake.
Irrespective of this awful incident, Las Vegas is — and always has been– a godforsaken toilet.
The fact is, there are the usual surveillance videos from a Costco parking lot, and they have not been released. If they were seen early on, the politicians could not protect the cops from prosecution. When they are pried loose after more time passes, life will go on for the shooters and their bosses, and money will go to the victims family. So they think. The family of Scott is not playing their game.
This is why I disagree with those saying this isn’t Costco’s fault.
Indeed, this entire situation happened because Costco reacted very poorly, at multiple levels. A permitted gun owner is suspicious? Send the security guard to take a look. Don’t even have to talk to the man. Look at him on the cameras in the store.
Costco had every reason to know this man wasn’t a threat.
Beyond that, Costco is obviously cooperating with the cover up of an extremely suspicious event where one of their members was gunned down, and then executed as he lay there. They should show us the videos of the confrontation with the employee, the man walking in the store, and the execution scene. I suspect all of this was captured by camera.
As of today, I am no longer a Costco member. I can get better produce at Target now, anyway. I don’t want my family to have to worry about this kind of problem.
Kind of makes me feel lucky to be alive! My wife, my 3 kids, and I were driving home moderately late on a Friday or Saturday night many months ago in my home town. We stopped at a CVS pharmacy and I ran in to get a bottle of wine and some other stuff. I noticed that the store personnel acted a little funny but didn’t pay much attention. As I left the store I noticed a flashing police car light out in the parking lot. As I exited the store I suddenly noticed about 4 or 5 police officers with guns drawn pointed at me yelling at me to stop. One police car was parked behind my car (blocking it) where my wife and kids were located. My wife started trying to exit the passenger seat of my car (between the police with their guns drawn and me to come to my aid). I yelled for her to stay in the damn car with the kids (I didn’t want to make the already nervous police officers any more nervous since they were pointing quite a few guns at me at the moment). She complied. I was told to raise both of my hands in the air. I did. I was told to turn around. I complied. I was told to take my free left hand and raise my jacket in the back (I assume they were looking for a firearm stuffed in the small of my back). I did. I was then told to walk slowly back to the nearest police officer backwards. I did. Apparently the store had recently been robbed (before I entered) with someone wearing a coat a similar color to mine. I made sure I didn’t drop the bottle of wine. My wife and I surely needed a big glass of wine after this episode ended peacefully. My kids were pretty freaked out too. I told my wife the last thing I wanted to do was to make the already nervous police officers more nervous when she tried to exit the car to come to my rescue. What happened in Vegas sounds criminal. However, the individual could have probably avoided getting shot if he just did exactly what the police ordered him to do. Making motion that were interpreted incorrectly as non-compliance with the police officers requests did not help clear the confusion.
It appe3ars that their orders were themselves confused and contradictory, making compliance with one officer look like defiance of the other. If one officer were to tell you to get on the ground and the other told you to back up slowly, you might be dead.
I don’t intend to excuse the Vegas police actions for this story at all and I’m pissed at how scared me and my family were (especially my kids who thought their dad was about to get shot right in front of them) in my circumstance. However, my lesson learned / experienced gained is to not do anything at all (but raise my hands and appear as passive / benign / harmless / non-threatening as possible) or, if no confusion exists as to what I’m being told to do (unlike how you described the Vegas incident), do exactly what I’m told to do very slowly and carefully. As long as I’m still alive I can sort out the confusion and indignation (and perhaps rights violations) later. I feel so very sorry for this man’s family. It seems the police these days get a lot of protection or free passes (note recent stories of police harassment when being video taped by citizens).
“[T]he individual could have probably avoided getting shot if he just did exactly what the police ordered him to do.”
Read it again: the cops told him to do at least three mutually-exclusive things at the same time. There was no way he could do “exactly what the police ordered him to do.”
The fact that the cops all emptied their weapons even as he was face-down on the ground says it all. He was doomed the minute they were called.
That’s the thing- he got shot several times in the back, after the initial shot in the chest that put him down. That’s what’s criminal to me.
I can’t comment on the ccl stuff- seems like there were mistakes on several parts. I don’t know how I’d react if three cops with guns drawn were yelling confusing commands. I’d hope I’d just stand with my hands high and let them get quiet, but even then…multiple shots in the back. That just just says all sorts of bad things to me.
All of this outrage is understandable, and if the police are not held criminally liable, more outrage is called for. But that is where civil remedies enter the picture. As I said before, “sue the store, sue the police department, sue the officers!!!!”. When they are financially ruined, their shameful conduct will be examined and noted by others, making it a safer place for all of us.
Terrible tragedy.
I do not mean to say any more than what my words say:
IF YOU HAVE A CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT
YOU WEAPON SHOULD BE CONCEALED AT ALL TIMES.
I repeat that I do not imply anything about this specific case. But that is the law. Nobody should be able to SEE your gun.
Remember that.
Prayers for the family.
I went and looked up the NV concealed carry law. There is no legal requirement that a concealed weapon remain concealed. What kind of stupidity does it take to post that kind of a lie?
As of two weeks ago, there are still no posted signs at that Costco. Were it not for this incident, I would never have known about any no-gun policy in there.
Nevertheless, I concur with those who remind all CHL holders: concealed means concealed — and if you ever get made or otherwise believe that you may be the “person of interest” in a gun call, unass the area immediately.
28. PJlaw:
The officer was a 1994 West Point Grad. The “Five and Fly” option is not uncommon among academy graduates, since their active duty obligation is only five years. About half get out at that point in their career, so I would hardly qualify his term as “unusually short” – if anything, it was typical.
I thought the original story on this also indicated that the Costco security camera video was in the hands of the police and either wasn’t available or “had been damaged”.
CC
Seven shots with a 45 at close range – to a lawful citizen who didn’t touch his gun, at a scene at which no crime has occured.
This is murder, and needs to be investigated as such.
No video released? No 911 call released? Hiding autopsy data? This has moved from murder to obstruction and conspiracy.
the last 4 rounds in the mans back make this murder in my book … Costco and the police department need to pay big for this one … I have a feeling that lies were told by police officials and they should burn as well if that is the case … byw, stating something as a fact when you don’t know what the facts are is a lie in my book …
Just want to point out that when this was happening to minorities, and when it was transients and low-lifes being victimized, no one on the right complained.
I’m a conservative. I hate to write it. But, John is right.
I’m a conservative, Mr. Ostensible Conservative. And John is dead wrong.
John is wrong. Plenty of people on the Right complained, and continue to complain, about police abuse of power – regardless of the victim’s race. The difference here is that the MEDIA isn’t complaining.
John makes a bigoted and incorrect assumption.
Bull crap. When in the last 30 years has the same situation like this happened to a minority? Name just one. Here are your grounds for comparison: 1 legally authorized to carry citizen; 2. complying with PO directions; 3. not charged with any crime; 4. not displaying threatening, criminal or disuptive behavior; 5. with his back to the PO; 6. no crime had been committed; 7. was not resisting arrest.
If anything it’s because of what minorities DO and how they react in uncivil and criminal ways when confronted by police that this happened.
Take your oppressed minorities sympathies and take a hike. And take any conservative with you who thinks like you.
blotto, get a clue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Diallo
(oops, my bad. he didn’t have a licensed gun, he had a /wallet/)
If anything, it’s reassurance that inept cops are Equal Opportunity Over-reacters.
Bulldust. The police who shot Diallo were in reasonable fear for their lives. There was no way they could have known that what he drew was not a gun, and that he was not about to shoot them. Any reasonable person would have done the same. The case bears no resemblance to this one, where the victim was in full view of the police at all times, and they had no reason to suspect that he was in any way dangerous.
Scott had a gun and Diallo didn’t. What am I missing here? This will happen all of the time if people actually use concealed carry. If a store like Costco loses a big lawsuit, then all of the major stores will declare that they don’t allow firearms. An individual store is afraid of right wing boycotts. But as these incidents add up, including concealled carrier shooting each other over trivialities, all of the stores will start to forbid gun carriers and there will be no one to boycott.
The vast majority of comments on this article are just plain wrong. The only salient points are these:
There was no reasonable suspicion. He was a CCW holder and should have been assumed to have been so.
In other words, when a man emerges from a building in the face of teams of armed public servants, and that man has no visible, evident, or even apparent means, intent, or will to cause any risk of harm whatsoever to himself, the public, or those teams of armed public servants, then why do they confront him, in their now-evident incompetence, such that his death is the outcome?
Even two cops, aware of the “situation”, were sufficient for a relatively casual visual inspection of the situation. Why didn’t this happen? The answer is because they and CostCo were jointly incapable of risk assessment in a situation they and they alone made into a 100% avoidable catastrophe.
And this in turn was caused by the jackassery that constitutes the present climate of powerful State/insignificant subject citizen. Stir in anti-gun hysteria — which we see acted out here in all it’s gory magnificence — and we have death by culture.
Nevada. Where a short hundred years ago armed civilians outnumbered armed public servants a thousand to one and where even today, they outnumber them a hundred to one.
There was NO reasonable suspicion. A man had his civil and constitutional rights terminated, along with his life, by what the State has become.
CostCo should be sued into oblivion. The LVPD should be sued and stripped of all officers involved throughout the entire chain of command.
The police don’t care about legalistic bullshit when their lives are on the line. (and I’m a lawyer and former prosecutor). Anyone who has a gun, even if he is white and right wing, is a threat to the officer returning home to his family at night. No police will be prosecuted and the officers care more about their lives than about money that their insurance carrier may have to pay.
A few more cases like this, or of concealled carriers shooting each other to death in road rage incidents, and every respectable retail and dining establishment will forbid guns on its premises, effectively ending concealed carry.
You know that Costco has video of the entire event, they have cameras all over their stores. Hopefully it will shed some light on this, if the police don’t burn it first.
To all those who say he should have left the store. I agree, and believe he would have done so if the thought of being shot on the way out had occurred to him.
Given that Mr. Scott’s death occurred not at the hands of a zealous employee but at the hands of LVPD officers, what would you have him do with several officers shouting conflicting instructions at him. In his shoes, I would have been frightened and tried to appease the cop that was the scariest, or most hysterical. Why are there so many cops who get hysterical in these situations? Are they not in fact signing on to be in combat-like situations that pose a threat to their safety? This story is crazy.
Does Texas really not require posted signs on stores not allows concealed carry?
When I got my ccw here in AR, we were told that not only must a sign be posted, but it must contain exact wording or it is not valid, which is stated directly in the law.
Texas does indeed have the “sign” provision. Licensed concealed carry is legal in all stores *unless* a) the store posts a sign stating otherwise (and the sign has to be in a specific format, it’s *huge* and very hard to miss) or b) the store/establishment derives over 50% of its revenue from alcohol sales (and even then those establishments need to post a medium-sized sign informing patrons of that fact). There’s also a small list of types of places where concealed carry is simply not allowed, such as hospitals etc.
Again, though, the particular provisions of the CHL laws of Texas (or any other state) are completely irrelevant when it comes to what is and is not allowed in *Nevada*, where this shooting took place. Every state’s laws are different when it comes to weapon carry.
Costco does, in fact, have a clause in its membership contract by which you agree not to carry a firearm, licensed or not, in their stores — which is a good part of the reason why my Costco membership is long lapsed and will not be renewed. (Sam’s Clubs allow legal, concealed carry.) Thus, if the victim was a Costco member, he was not entitled to be armed — though that hardly explains or excuses the reaction of the police officers. It’s ALWAYS a good idea to actually read a membership contract, if only to avoid just such situations as this.
I love the dead silence from all of the “Sign Whiners” regarding your point…
The full text of the Second Amendment:
“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
Shall not be infringed, period, full stop, without qualification. Shall not be infringed, not by Congress, not by some local tinpot tyrant and his uniformed thugs, and certainly not by some pansy-ass “manager” acting contrary to visible policy in a public accommodation.
This is completely incorrect. The entire Bill of Rights lists those individual rights that cannot be infringed upon by the Government. it is a document detailing the government intrusions from which we are free – it says nothing whatsoever about the ability of private property owners to determine who may or may not be allowed on that private property.
Law enforcement officers give conflicting commands all the time. They yell them at “suspects” to keep them off-balance. This I have heard from the mouth of one such officer. It’s a vile thing to do. I hope everyone involved is sued because it sure looks like nothing else is going to happen to these murderers.
The LVPD needs to step up on this. Otherwise Las Vegas itself needs to be avoided at all costs. It’s not safe for law-abiding citizens to visit or live there.
I work for the cousin of Eric; he and Eric were like brothers.
Eric was a very, very bright guy. Third generation military. Grandfather had a bronze star from WWII. His dad was a big guy in NASA. Eric was West Point graduate, with honors even. He was good guy. Funny. Well liked. Very even-tempered. He was with his fiance at the time.
Eric left the store after hearing over the loudspeaker that the store was being evacuated. He and his fiance filed out with everyone else, in the crowd. When they exited the store, the Costco employee (one of them) pointed him out to the police. They began shouting at him. He was cooperating in the seconds before the police began shooting.
But how do you respond to 1. Put your hands in the air, 2. Get on the ground, and 3. Don’t move? One of the police tasered him even before the other officers were through shouting their [single] commands. The sound of the taser made a loud noise, that MAY have caused the officers to start shooting.
(Eric’s fiance was right beside him; I know the above, because she told the family this. And this was verified by at least two of the eyewitnesses.)
Yes. There were eyewitnesses who WERE nearby AND watching.
The precinct captain’s immediate comments were both contradictory, and defensive. And simply not credible.
Btw: Eric’s family’s lawyer IS the son of the mayor of Las Vegas (or an ex-mayor, can’t recall). Eric was well-known, and well-liked in that stratum of the Las Vegas community.
Some other pertinent background. First. The eldest cop had a record of a bad shoot in 2005 (exonerated …some say white-washed). Second. The other two were rookies (one with barely a year as a cop).
Draw your own conclusions from this.
Oh. And Tarantulas? You are an idiot. And stupid.
Very sad. My heart goes out to his girl who will never be able to put this behind her outside of a miracle. How many times does she have to relive this insanity in her mind?
One of the cops has fatally shot before in 2006 it seems. At this rate he could rack up quite few scores in his career by his retirement. Am I to understand they first they tasered the victim (not in the official story, but from his girl friend who was an eye witness), then shout instructions to him. How does one co-operate under the influence of 50,000 Volts? Your muscles are not controllable and just spasm. This is quickly followed by 6 or 7 rounds of the real thing after he ‘fails to comply’.
The people of this town really need to ensure that there is no cover-up, and that any attempt to obstruct justice is exposed nationally. You may have loads of rogue officials in the way of the truth, but keep up the pressure. This was done in daylight, in public, and if you let them get away with it, you’re stuffed.
Its too bad Mr. Scott wasn’t black. If so, I would have seen this in the news.
I have to disagree with people here. If the guy was reaching for his gun, regardless of whether it was for hostile or benign purposes, was an error on his part. He should have waited for the police officers to have disarmed him. Even if he was acting calmly the police had no idea who he was, or what he was really doing, and it’s hard to know if the guy was only going to disarm himself or turn the gun on them. Seriously, even if you have a gun permit, if you have a bunch of cops pointing guns at you, don’t go for your gun period! Lay down on the ground and let them disarm you. You can clear everything up later.
These days, this kind of police oppression is not unusual. Police in this country are out of control.
- Police are selected for aggression and tenacity rather than self-control and empathy.
- Police are trained into a militaristic mindset which requires an enemy.
- Police are trained how to lie and deceive citizens to trick them. Believe it or not, it’s perfectly legal for cops to lie to you.
- Police routinely “lose” inconvenient video and audio evidence. No one goes to jail for destroying evidence.
- Police lie and cover for one another. Even the good cops keep their mouths shut about the bad ones.
In general, police act just like any other organized street gang protecting their turf. Except they act with the full backing, cover, and support of the government itself.
Conservatives should scrutinize ALL uses government power. We citizens gave police excessive, unaccountable powers. It’s time to take it back.
1. Believe it or not, it’s perfectly legal for cops to lie to you.
Whereas it’s a crime to make a false statement to a federal agent even if you’ve committed no (other) crime.
2. It always angers me that some “conservatives” make excuses for the police after incidents like this, especially excuses along the lines that the victim had it coming to him.
This would not have happened at Walmart. Costco is a hotbed of fervent lefty believer/shoppers–when I hear them talk about the store (and the stupid fees they must pay!) I get a headache.
I wish the Chair were still available and the responsible officers were headed toward it.
Like the much touted first ammendment giving you the right to free speech, as long as you don’t say to much or speak about things which cannot be spoken of, you have the right to keep and bear arms BUT the cops will kill you if you do.
Besides, Vegas is a shithole anyway.
If this is correct, I hope the police officers involved are tried and convicted for homicide and that Mr. Scott’s family becomes very rich. It won’t bring him back but maybe jail time and one hellaciously large fine will make the LVPD’s personnel think twice before the next time they decide to gun down a law-abiding citizen.
What a terrible, terrible event! My deepest condolences to his family and friends.
Gee. I wonder what’s keeping AG Holder from bringing a fed civil rights suit against the city of Lost Wages? So curious. Rico statute material for sure.
According to the Scott family blog linked in the article, police “immediately” seized the store’s surveillance data and the back-up drives.
Afaic that speaks for itself. And it’s not an isolated case.
Since state and corporate surveillance data can be used as evidence, copies should be archived, real-time, in a neutral location.
My take is that Scott was a dead man walking when the store kid went to the manager.
I had a similar incident, a few years past.
I had my shirt out of my pants(warm day) and a tape measure clipped on my belt. Walking down the sidewalk in the next town when I was confronted by a swarm of uniformed idiots yelling and pointing guns at me.
It seems a good citizen had made a gun call….cell phones…..
I survived only by the grace of G-D.
After they patted me down and found the tape….THEN I made my opinions about their intelligence, sexual preferences, personal hygene and ancestry….REAL LOUD….
Is the little thumbnail picture at the top of the article Erik Scott or Bob Owens? Never having met either person, I have no idea. (This is my way of hinting that captions on those little thumbnails would be a good idea!)
The reason I ask is that everyone is saying that Erik Scott was white and therefore expressing doubt that the DOJ will involve itself in this matter. So far I haven’t seen anything in the article itself that says Erik Scott was white. Did I miss it? Or has everyone just assumed that the picture at the top of the story is Erik Scott, who is obviously white?
The thumbnail is a picture of Eric.
These cops are Obama’s first stormtroopers. They just sent a message to all CCW holders – you will be killed.
I believe the correct charge would be “Murder under color of authority”, an even more heinous crime than straight-up murder.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Yes, American citizens have this right, but God help you if anyone catches you exercising this right.
“Even if he was acting calmly the police had no idea who he was, or what he was really doing”
Uhhmmm…He WAS acting calmly…THATS what he was doing.
Calm and non-threatening, willing to comply with any demand if they were clear and calm, Just like he was.
Arriving on scene into a situation like that requires a few things on the part of Law Enforcement. Like called “judgement” and “discipline” or “competency” maybe even “professionalism”…all of which they obviously lacked
THEY were the aggressors,THEY were out of control, undisciplined unprofessional and over-reacting.
And to a previous commentor that lamented we conservatives do not get upset when it happens to minorities, not so.
Myself and others have posted our dissagreement with the The 54 shots leveled at the unarmed African immigrant in NYC several years back (forgive the spelling, his name was Mr. Amadou Diallo?).
That was another ridiculous display of weapons handling incompetence…several officers surround the guy, empty the gun, reload, empty it again, with stray bullets everywhere…inexcuseable no matter WHAT they thought he was doing. If you cant handle a weapon without treating it like a firehose, you should not be issued one.
Ditto for the groom shot by NYPD night before his wedding….simmilar spastic fussilade of undisciplined, un-aimed fire….dozens and dozens of shots fired, again with very few hits.
Or “oops, that was my GUN I thought it was a TASER”..another brilliant Government Employee in over his head.
Interesting to note, since the adoption of semi-autos over revolvers by Police departments nationwide, all the basic measured police shooting incident stats have stayed the same….
Time of day, distance to perp? Same. Number of officers involved, number of shots fired BY THE PERP? Same. Number of strikes BY THE PERP? Same…all these are statistcally the same Revolver vs semi-auto.
The ONLY stats to change in 25 years are:
Shots fired by officers per incident are up from 4 to 9
(more than doubled)
Percentage of hits by officers down from just above 50% to below 10%
(source: FBI Uniform Crime Statictics 1979-2005)
Union bums with guns
“… once the employee had asked him to leave, Mr. Scott would have a problem with Criminal Trespass …”
Absolutely. If a property owner or representative asks someone to leave the premises and that person hangs around it’s trespassing.
If you’re a CHL you should know the law and abide by it, even if it means bowing to the overactive imagination of a hand-wringing hoplophobe. CHL’s must and usually do set an example for obeying the law to a higher degree than the general population. Our privilege to carry is on the line here.
What the police did was outrageous, but the man in question wasn’t innocent — not once he refused to leave after a duly authorized request by a representative of the property owner.
Read the article again. Nowhere does it state that he was actually asked to leave.
From what it *does* say, it appears the conversation between Scott and the employee was something more like this: “You can’t have a gun in here.” “Actually, that’s incorrect.” “Oh. [*wanders off*]”
From Scott’s perspective, he was never asked to leave, and the issue was settled, or if it wasn’t, the employee or manager were free to come back and discuss it with him again, or even ask him to leave if they actually decided to do so.
If there was a mistake at that point, it was the employee’s and/or manager’s for failing to explicitly just try asking him to go.
Semantics.
If someone representing a private property owner tells you, “You can’t have a gun in here,” you no longer have the right to have a gun in there. If you don’t remove the gun from the premises you’re trespassing. Property rights* and the explicitly expressed will of the property owner or duly-authorized representatives trump the right to carry.
If you’re a CHL I’m mortified by your defiance of the law. If you’re not, make sure before you get your license that you pay attention in class. Everything they teach you is important.
The situation was one of the CHL escalating a little and the police escalating a lot, but pay attention to who escalated things first. Had either side followed the law the incident never would have happened. What the police did was horrible, but what the CHL did was illegal and unwise.
* Landlords have constraints on their property rights which protect CHL’s, but these are not so much constraints against property rights as a separation of property rights into real estate and domicile, the latter of which are held by the tenant. Landlords aren’t allowed to pick through a tenant’s personal papers, the tenant isn’t allowed to turn the garage into a guest bedroom, etc.
Security video has not been released…this in my opinion will either support or contradict the stories. This will also detail the series of events, from the initial confrontation in the store, intervention with the employee and security guard, and finally when the victim exits the store. There will be a time-code which should match up with the 911 calls and police presence. If he was “agitated”, it will be clearly visible, especially with interactions between his girlfriend, and perhaps other store employees (especially in the check out line)…if he had to wait to check out.
As the further evidence is released, and it supports the stories of the girlfriend and those not involved, I would venture to say that Costco will do pretty much everything it can to eliminate culpability, pay off the families, and make this story go away. The police on the other-hand will have a legal war that will go on for years. The best thing that can happen to the officers is to be dismissed…my guess is they are looking at serious jail time.
The multiple rapid gun shots do make the police look overzealous at the least and criminal at worst case. However, all of this debate about whether he was appearing to reach for his gun or whether the police were criminal could have been avoided if this poor young fellow did not try to rationalize with the many men / women pointing lethal loaded weapons at him (see my own personal story above #53). If he had just kept his hands raised (high as he could – like I did in my story above) and asked the police leader calmly for directions (without lowering his hands). I believe his likelihood of survival would have been tremendously higher (or the police would have been overwhelmingly guilty without a doubt of deliberate murder). if he just figured he could straighten it out after they (under their own terms and conditions) disarmed him, handcuffed him, humilated him, beat him, etc., but at least he would still have been alive to sue the police, lead a boycott against Costco, etc.., Now all we can do is debate who was right / wrong and pray for the surviving family members of this tragedy.
Reason at last! Thank you Chris.
First, it will have to be determined (go CSI) just precisely what did or did not happen. The current details are not clear.
Second STUPID, when confronted by any number of uniformed LEOs, with weapons drawn and pointed at you, the thing to do is ABSOLUTELY FREAKING NOTHING that can be confused or misunderstood by the aforementioned uniformed cowboys using their command voices. You do this for the exact reason that has been commented on before; cops are treated special, and with ANY little bit of stretch can and do get away with murder. They shouldn’t be, but that’s reality. I have made it my personal guide to NEVER argue with a cop holding a gun. We can sort it out later either in court or when I have the tactical advantage.
Now this is no guarantee of survival. Poor old Amadou Diallo was shot to doll rags by four of NYPD’s finest and they walked. At least LVPD apparently had a high percentage of hits although total rounds expended wasn’t mentioned! NYPD only managed something less than 50%, but that was at night and they were in plain cloths.
My bet is that Lost Wages will end up paying the family some multiple of a million dollars in a wrongful death suit and that CostCo will get nailed also for their stupid instigation. If the store’s call was grossly exaggerated it could get real bad. We’ll see how they handle CCWs across the country in their stores.
So cops in this country are allowed to utilize hollow-point personal protection ammunition which ensures severe organ damage if not outright death, but our military is forbidden to use this same ammo in war. They must use standard ball projectiles and it has been proven that in many cases it takes several rounds to drop an enemy insurgent with them. For the jerk who said there is no war on the citizens being perpetrated by police in this country, you’re full of it. I thought tasers were introduced to reduce the use of deadly force? They must only use those middle class women who don’t comply with their hard nosed commands during traffic stops outside Starbucks.
Hollow points are also less likely to travel through someone and strike the person behind them. Or go though walls. That’s a good tradeoff for police in urban situations.
But I would like to see the treaty that limits our military’s choice in ammo to be cancelled.
The police need to release a recording of the 911 call from the store manager immediately to help re-establish trust with the public. Their refusal to make the 911 call public reinforces the public perception of culpability or, at minimum, incompetence.
The irony is truly horrible when one considers the 2007 triple murder trial going on in Connecticut right now.
There the police were completely inept in such a do nothing way that the hostages were raped, murdered and the house torched during the more than half an hour that the police took to set up a perimeter, while neglecting to notify the state police to get the hostage negotiators and other experts involved.
Both stories are horrible.
And yes, the Las Vegas homicide means these three men (and perhaps their superiors) should never ever be in law enforcement ever again.
And perhaps Costco should have some re-education and sensitivity training classes to educate its employees about citizens’ Second Amendment rights and the proper way to respond to customers who carry especially if they do have a no carry (concealed or open) policy.
(Another thought — Is Nevada an open carry state? Appears to be.)
Well, it’s pretty obvious that most commenters have made up their minds to convict the police officers in this case. I’m sure there are many questions about this incident but Mr. Owens is not privy to all the facts. The headline using the term “gunned down” is a bit inflammatory, no?
Conflicting orders from the police or not, the worst thing to do is to reach for your weapon. Very bad judgment with tragic results.
Must you continually remind us what a moron you are. We get it, okay.
After being shot three times, the man was face-down on the concrete and shot four times in the back. That, my anonymous friend, is the very definition of “gunned-down.”
The Costco in question apparently had four video cameras trained on the scene. The Las Vegas police apparently took the hard drives on all four immeidately and seem to have destroyed them:
http://www.usma1994.com/classnews.aspx?newsid=16
“… Costco had numerous security cameras inside the store and at least four trained on the entrance portico, where the shooting took place. Metro officers immediately seized the surveillance-camera video data (computer hard disks), including backup drives. Within hours, Metro leaked “news” that the video may be “unusable,” and that the hard drives had been sent to a forensics lab in Los Angeles. More than six weeks later, only Metro personnel have seen the video. [Sheriff Douglas Gillespie, the Metro chief, continues to say that “there’s probably no usable video” of events inside the store or of Erik’s fatal shooting. He also has refused to release the 911 audio tape, even though Metro normally releases those 911 call tapes to the media within days.”
The most likely outcome of the matter is a whitewash by the Las Vegas and Nevada authorities followed by a civil suit against the City of Las Vegas and Costco on behalf of the victim’s family. Costco will in the course of that offer a reward for any cell camera videos of the incident, plus its attorneys will help the family’s attorneys prove that the Las Vegas police intentionally destroyed the surveillance video hard drives.
The family will settle their claims before trial, with the whole case being sealed and the Cone of Silence coming down on everything. The City of Las Vegas will addtionally pay the family’s attorney fees under 42 USC 1988. Costco and the City will settle, out of court, Costco’s claim for indemnity against the City for a portion of the money paid by Costco to the victim’s family to settle their claims.
And we’ll never know how much the family was paid, how much of that was paid by Costco verus how much by the City of Las Vegas, or whether the LVPD had for sure destroyed the surveillance camera hard drives.
Sadly, this is EXACTLY what will happen.
I’d also add – unless I missed it – that the coroner’s inquest will be a 100% kangaroo proceeding, 99.9% assassination of the victim’s character, finally coming back with a “justified” verdict clearing the cops of any wrongdoing at all.
Wait and see.
I know in my heart what happened here – one popped the taser, the other 2 opened up in reaction.
I’ve even seen this happen on the range – someone fires and others react by firing as well in response to the “shock” of the first shot.
“Murder” is a pretty strong word – though morally accurate it’s legally more of a “manslaughter” situation.
In any case, all parties involved should be charged – especially those who aided the coverup and the destruction of the video.
DD
Horrible tragedy but I feel events such as this are simply part of a larger trend that has been growing for the past 20 years: For lack of a better term I call it “hair trigger fear enforcement.’ We see it everyday from public officials. It encompasses the kind of trivial, but anger-inducing episodes we read about on a sadly, too frequent basis.
You know the stories: Police are called to arrest first-grader for bringing plastic toy pocketknife to class. Routine domestic disturbance calls will trigger a response from not just two but an entire platoon of cops. A TSA security drone will routinely administer full body searches to octogenarians in walkers waiting to board a flight to Boise. Cities and schools remove any playground equipment in parks and schoolyards for fear SOMEONE might hurt. Companies insist on administering drug tests to applicants for even the lowliest of occupations that don’t even involve public safety or handling money.
Via social/political conditioning and destructive legal/tort trends we have utterly bled common sense and proportional judgment out of the “system.” It’s really sad.
I’ve had 35 years daily experience with law enforcement officers and 99% of them develop an ‘us against them’ mentality in the field. “Us” is themselves and brother officers. “Them” is EVERYONE ELSE! These 99% will do nearly ANYTHING to protect that “US” but lying is a given. They hear nothing but lies from even so-called ‘honest citizens’ so [not as a defense but only an explanation] they justify their frequent lies. After all, they ‘know’ that they’re the ‘good guys’ so why not?
To all those saying “he should have known better than to reach for the weapon”, he was (1) told to and (2) was surprised by a gaggle of yelling police officers aiming guns. Having a bunch of people ready to shoot you has a tendency to making you not think too much about how dangerous complying with their orders is – the dangers of *not* complying are a lot more salient.
The mysteriously “unusable” security tapes pretty much bring me down on the side of those blaming the police. That just screams whitewash, even if they didn’t shoot him multiple times while he was on the ground.
This is truly tragic beyond words. There is no way to express the unbelievable horror that this family and, more particularly, the girlfriend of this man have experienced and will live with forever. Mistakes, very serious mistakes, were made by Costco employees and Costco management. If the facts as presented are acurate, the employee “spinup” set the tone for the eventual death of an innocent man. The LV police department, on the other hand, is virtually without excuse. Regardless of their education level or ethnicity, their professionalism was completely absent at this point and an innocent man died horribly.
Without excoriating all policemen and police departments, virtually everyone would agree that the “thin blue line” has some particularly thin points as it works to serve and protect. In this case, that line turned from blue to red.
Steve-the saddest thing is this is what happens when leftist thought gets into power. The cops never appeared to have given this man a chance. Costco over-reacted, treating a customer like he was a thug. And the worse part is, the more the power of any govt grows, this is a consequence of it.
Life under a Democratic administration…
Politically correct crap has invaded the policies and procedures of police departments across the country. One of the byproducts of that is that police administrations within the departments always have 1-4 city officials (elected or otherwise) that they are trying to please, in order to not lose funds or get in trouble in the headlines of the day. So while there is obvious incompetence in the procedures used by these police officers, it would be really interesting to know who’s breathing down the necks of the supervisors of these police officers. Something influenced the incompetence on this scene: was it the dilemma of “who should we please today?” or just sheer LEO incompetence?
The pride of LEOs generally being what it is, I smell city politics behind this ugly episode. I hope the family already has been able to assure themselves that all the event records and weapons involved are under trustworthy lock and key.
Our son was a big city LEO for over 12 years. After about 8 years of serving honorably on that force, he told us (with suppressed fury) that if he was ever killed in an on duty action, “No matter WHAT it looks like, no matter how straight-forward it seems, you have got to immediately have someone lock down the scene, the weapons and all the records.” He clearly had gotten the message (as had all of the “smart officers” in their bureau) that the reputations and lives of police officers WERE considered expendable by the leftist politicians who ran the purse strings at the city and county level, and the LEOs knew that if push came to shove, the police department administrative folks would crack under the political pressure from the city.
Costco just got me to buy another year at Sam’s Club. And I’ll be damned if I ever visit Vegas before those murderous thugs are off the police force and behind bars.
This reminds me of an incident where my son was brought home by the local sheriff’s department. My son made a mistake and went to the bathroom in a local eatery. He didn’t realize that he was followed by a thug who was bent on robbing him. While in the bathroom, the thug demanded his wallet and began beating my son. My kid tried to comply but the man kept hitting him which was his mistake. Bloodied and angered by the continued attack, he fought back and left the thug on his back in what my son described as a pool of piss. My son ran out of the restaurant and down the street only to be stopped by the local sheriff’s deputy. Before he knew it, my son was face down in the gutter, hands cuffed behind his back, and a loaded gun pointing at his head. Six police cars had responded and nobody was listening to him. Finally one of the deputies, a woman, said, “He’s a Jew!” At that revelation, they let him up, listened to his story, uncuffed him, and finally drove him home.
That makes me think. How close was my son to being blown away? The mugger was never dealt with.
I guess we won’t see this one on Law and Order.
Ammunition that can over-penetrate the initial target and strike others nearby is generally a GOOD thing in a military environment. There, the scenario expected is generally lots of bad guys “outside the wire” tring to shoot their way in.
Thats why we FMJ use “ball ammo”. Its good for penetrating alot of things bad guys tend to hide behind, like car doors, walls, light sandbag baracades etc etc..
Also, through and through entry/exit wounds generally cause much more blood loss, and are more likely to be FATAL.
In a Civilain/law enforcement situation, the generally expected scenario is ONE of the bag guys in a sea of innocents. Over-penetration is most definitely a BAD thing in that situation for obvious reasons.
Also, by dumping most or all of a projectile’s kinetic energy INSIDE the target, you effectively increase the shock/stopping power of SMALL CALIBER PISTOLS making them useful in lethal encounters (all pistols are small caliber to military warfighting doctrine). The shock is greater, but the wound is generally more treatable than a through and through entry/exit
Ball ammo in a pistol is a most often very, very bad choice for the defensive shooter
Having lost one of my friends in a very similar manner: (http://bendbugle.com/oregon/federal-court-revives-bend-police-excessive-force-suit/ and http://www.oregonlive.com/special/gantenbein/index.ssf?/news/oregonian/nw_51adam28.frame ) I can tell you that the cops will likely get off the hook. Even if the video and eye witnesses present themselves. We grant the Police the ability to make snap-second decisions, and the judges usually side with the Police department. Adam’s case was bifurcated courtesy of the Judge, and the prosecution had to first prove that the Officer in questions was out of line in his decision making before any character information was admissible. It was close, but based on the limited evidence, the psycho cop walked. Unfortunately, Adam’s father was a 13 year Portland Police Officer and Judge, and the murdering officer Al Campbell had an abuse of force record as long as your arm. When the case was over and the jurors found out the character information, multiple jurors admitted their disgust in defending the officer. I feel for the Scott family… What a horrible situation. Although the family will never have their son back, I hope their efforts will result in those Cops never being in the position to do what they did again.
It is called “The Thin Blue Line” for a reason. Unfortunately the reason is being lost on more and more members of law enforcement. As Sgt. Phil Esterhaus said on Hill Street Blues, “Let’s be careful out there!” That goes for how the officers conduct themselves. Once the law abiding no longer respect their law enforcement the line will evaporate. You are seeing the beginning of anarchy and brought about by who?
This is unspeakable. The union thugs with guns should be prosecuted for murder. They probably won’t.
I support local police. However, the bad apples who think they can exercise the power of life and death over innocent citizens with impunity should remember that there are far more guns in civilian hands than in police departments in this country.
Two lessons – stay out of Vegas and stay out of Costco. Shooting aside, if simply carrying a gun escalated to police with guns drawn, numerous people messed up. Why would Costco call 911? Why would the cops send a task force when they did? Why would they draw weapons when as yet no crime or threat was apparent? When things escalate to that kind of intense situation, a certain percentage of the time, odds are high a deadly mistake will be made by someone. Costco appears to be a bunch of screaming ninnies and the Vegas cops look like they have no concept of being PROTECTORS of the public. Rather it appears they think they have the power to gun down innocent veterans, just in case.
Anytime someone flaunts a gun in public it is an emergency and the police will treat it as such; despite legalistic fictions like concealed carry for “citizens”, as opposed to “criminals”.
If the police ignore it and the “citizen” (now reclassified as a “criminal”) goes on a shooting rampage, the police will be severly criticized.
Once the police arrive, they care about their own safety first. If you choose to “exercise” your constitutional rights, expect to be shot if you twitch while “disarming”.
Previous commenters have noted that the media would be all over this if the victim had been black or Hispanic.
One might think that people across the political spectrum would unite against such murderous overreach by the government. Neither the media nor political “leaders” on the Left and Right are speaking out and leading.
Who benefits?
When an issue like this does not bridge the partisan divide, the government retains its illegitimate power. When an issue like this does not bridge the partisan divide, the Ruling Class described by Angelo Codevilla retains its illegitimate power.
Whoa guys,
First the hollowpoint scare. Yes the police use hollowpoint ammo. I USE IT!
This type of ammo not only stops an attack better than FMJ but is far more likely to say inside the attacker and not injure anyone else (as been pointed out above.)
Second, we are not sure if the LEO’s gave conflicting orders. If one cop said, “get on the ground” and the suspect showed the cops his gun, then the other cop says, “drop the gun” (after all to say that means the gun as to be in their hands, right?) well it’s not a conflicting order.
I’ve been packing guns for many years now. Stopped by cops a few times for speeding. I’ve NEVER HAD A COP ASK FOR MY GUN! Never searched, never held at gun point, never even had a problem with cops.
But the man here, instead of complying with the cops instructions, tried to ARGUE with them. And get this, if you tell a cop who is pointing a gun at you that you are ex-military, all you have said is you are skilled and trained for war.
And most importantly here, once a gun is in your hands, it takes only maybe ¼ to ½ second to level it and fire. That does not give cops (or anyone) time to react. So a gun in your hand takes the whole situation to a higher level (and then you tell the cop you are ex-military, so what do you think the cops are thinking???)
So in my view, Mr. Scott made grievous errors in judgment and the majority of fault lies with him.
Paul,
Great job at pointing your finger without comprehending the story. There are witnesses who claim the gun was never in his hand but you claim he is pointing it police. Your finger pointing only points that to the notion that you are most likely LEO and are spinning because someone calls out the corruption that has happened here.
That was one of the dumbest responses I have read on the internet to date. Tell us when you are done arguing your point based upon your own mental thoughts of what happened. (even though witnesses conflict your findings) Congrats.
When LEO takes all the tapes, coroners findings and wont release them, they are murdering people and covering up the evidence.
If I had a relation to this young man, I would be out right now using the internet white pages to do the same to them to these cops. Why should they not die in front of their loved ones in the same manner? Just because someone wears a badge does not mean they are above retribution.
Paulie,
Whoa, yourself. The story says the commands were issued simultaneously. When he tried to lower his arm to turn over the gun, his arm was no lower than his shoulder when he was shot. Also, what about the 4 shots in the back when he was down and bleeding?
You’re a piece of dog poop.
“But the man here, instead of complying with the cops instructions, tried to ARGUE with them.”
No, he was obeying them when they murdered him. He was doing what some of them said. The onus of giving clear and appropriate instructions is on the police, all of it. They failed to do that, and in the most generous interpretation committed homicide by criminal negligence.
This innocent man was DELIBERATELY murdered by the police. There are a lot of very good, outstanding police, but unfortunately there are some who present a huge danger to the law-abiding public, and in Las Vegas, it appears killer cops are allowed to walk free.
If you live in Las Vegas, it may cost you your life if you need to call the police. And if more people know about this ruthless killing, Las Vegas will have a lot less visitors.
Dear Erik Scott, rest in peace. Your killers may never face justice in this lifetime, but they will face G-D’s justice which is far more terrifying.
Don’t you all get it? The police can shoot whoever they want, whenever they want, and get away with it.
Get used to it. The Police State is here.
Part of the responsibility–gotta say it–also lies with the ‘Open-Carry’ movement. Of course, the police were in the wrong, but Erik Scott was bucking the law of averages.
So those “uppity darkies” should’ve have expected what the Klan gave them, is that it? It’s the same thing, except the police don’t usually have the shame to hide their face.
So, Paul…it appears that your opinion is that errors in judgement should be punished by summary execution. Just a guess, but you sound like a statist. Hopefully, when they come for you, your demise will be quick and painless.
OK, so my wife and I were planning a trip to Vegas this October, but screw them I have no intentions of walking into that war zone! I was already held up at gun point in the Virgin Islands, no reason to have the cops finish the job in Nevada.
I think a nice quite trip to Yellowstone sounds better.
Yellowstone’s great, but how about Arizona? We all need to be buycotting AZ to help them fight off the federal government.
“What we know for certain is that Scott was in the camping section of the store taking bottles out of their packaging, attempting to determine how many of the bottles would fit in a cooler he was thinking of purchasing. At some point he bent over and his shirt rode up, exposing the pistol he had concealed at the small of his back. A Costco employee saw the holstered sidearm and told Scott he was not allowed to have the weapon in the store. Scott replied that he had a permit and the right to carry his weapon. He then went back to shopping.”
This guy made some pretty obvious errors the day. If I’m taking product out of packaging, carelessly show the world I’m armed, and refuse to leave when told a gun was not appropriate in the store, then I’m not thinking too clearly.
Given his poor judgment inside the store, I’m not to confident of his judgment a few minutes later outside of it.
If the police contradictorily told me to get down and keep my hands up, I’d drop to my knees and fall forward, breaking my fall with my elbows. I wouldn’t like it, but it’s a heck of a lot better than getting shot to death.
Well Mike, I guess I don’t get it, you’ll have to explain it – how is the “open carry” movement responsible. The victim wasn’t open carrying, btw.
“…this was the USA and many people have CCW permits.”
After a lifetine of MSM indoctrination, a 20-something security guard probably won’t know that there is such a thing as CCW or what is required to have it. Of course, his or her employer should make sure that they DO know that, but is that knowledge a requirement to be a security guard?
Makes you wonder – if security guards were packing (and trained / background-checked / licenced to do so) would this have happened. Easy answer – no. Of course, they would have to be paid more than minimum wage then, wouldn’t they?
As a long time Las Vegas Resident (over 12 years) I’ve come to fear any and all police persons in the Las Vegas Area. There have been numerous encounters publicized in the news about “mishaps” involving persons going about their daily lives and ending up dead. Phrases like “lunged at the officers” and “furtive movements” are commonplace in the police statements, and always ending in the death of a person. The other point neglected in all of these stories is that the inquests – conducted after the shootings, are done by POLICE OFFICERS. All the “members” of the inquest board are Las Vegas Police officers, and as long as I can remember, no police involved in any shooting have been found to have fired their weapons in error. Isn’t having the police conducting inquests on the police like using convicts as guards?
Here is the trouble with this. Costo is at fault. The police are at fault and the guy with the gun is at fault.
What was the police commands over and over, “Get on the ground.” Not “Go ahead and get your pistol out.”
We went through a similar situation in my police career and the guy got shot. In that case, the wife, who was cheating on him and throwing him out at the time of the argument, called 911 and claimed he was trying to kill her. He wasn’t. We didn’t know all the facts on the ground until after the fact. Had we known, we had reacted differently.
The guy should have hit the ground immediately. Here’s a hint, when confronted with a bunch of amped up policemen, follow their orders to the letter, especially if they are pointing guns at you. Being right doesn’t trump being dead
He was given 3 different commands at the same time. Put your hands above your head. Turn over your gun. Get on the ground. Which ever “officer” he obeyed would have put him at variance with the other two. He would have been shot reguardless.
Take a remedial reading course before making another stupid comment.
Rance, that is why I said in my first response that, when cops have pointed their weapons at you, put your hands up and keep them up until the cops themselves pull your hands down to handcuff you.
Don’t obey any orders they give you when their weapons are pointed at you. Just stand there frozen with your hands up. Don’t move, don’t say anything, don’t make faces at them, just keep both hands up way over your head. Wait it out. Let them calm down.
Don’t give them any excuse to shoot you, and make it obvious that you are no threat.
1. I fully agree with your recommendation of how one should respond.
2. That said, isn’t it strange that a civilian should be the one who needs to keep his head in an extremely stressful and unusual situation, as opposed to the law enforcement officers who are trained for such situations and who have actually initiated it?
Someone will have to explain to me why we should put up with police who scream contradictory orders with guns drawn.
Next they’ll ventilate people with their hands in the air, claiming the “perps” are holding their attention so the cops can be better targeted by snipers. After all, the most important thing in the world is that they go home, and everyone else be hanged.
Follow their orders to the letter? Which order? Can you read?
Nice to know that people with your lack of comprehension are/were in law enforcement.
Excuse me….the guy dropped to the ground at the first shot, there was absolutely no need nor reason to shoot him further and in the back too. Shame on you.
This sickening story reminds me of some of the stories a cop friend of mine tells me. There was one long time officer on the force who had responded to a domestic dispute call and arrested a woman’s boyfriend for battery. The next morning the woman found this officer in his underwear in her kitchen making breakfast. Naturally she filed a complaint. The officer claimed he was only responding to her “flirting” with him when he arrested her boyfriend. Ya see, she lead him on. He got a wrist slap and went back to work. I Believe my friend because we both took a jujitsu class together and this man was an occasional instructor, the absolute definition of sexual harassment. We both stopped going to that particular class. Sad to say, police officers and police unions do take care of their own at the public’s expense.
So. Looks to me like everything will immediately improve if all the cops are fired. Because obviously, they are incompetent, vicious, immoral, murderous thugs with weapons. So if we can just get rid of them, things will be much better.
Not a bad start, but too extreme. We need to get rid of at least half the laws and half the police though.
looks like a cascade of bad choices all around.
the cops are definitely culpable and shouldnt be carrying a badge any more from what im reading.
I had a paniky attendant in a loundrymat call the cops on me when I was carrying about 15 years ago.
I saw them come in, and I knew instinctively who they were coming for, I kept my hands on the washing machine and complied with the officers coherant and NONCONFLICTING commands.
they, not me, removed my glock from my holster, and my wallet.
then we had a pleasant conversation where I answered every question they had.
they then had a talk with the laundrymat attendant and told her she was safer with me in thier than without me, that I was lawful thier was no cause for concern and to relax.
they gave me back my gun and asked me NOT to re-load the weapon untill they had left.
I dont beleive would I have complied with an order to take it out myself, I would rather keep my hands up.
but that whole situation sounds like there was little to no way for him to come out of that alive.
and the same racists and leftists who moan everytime a minority thug gets shot, like with that recent guatamalen illegal who charged the cops with a knife. but this guy is white, and from the looks of it a patriot, so they don’t care.
Lets talk about flashing concealed firearms …a lot of posters here are blaming Scott for being “made” but I gotta tell you, in 30+ years as a firearms instructor, the most prevalent “flashers” of concealed firearms are COPS.
I see them everywhere, especially in places like the People Republik of Jersey where there IS no CCW law. I’ve ridden motorcycles with off duty cops whose sidearm’s were exposed by their t-shirts billowing in the wind. Sucks but true, the badge on their belt next to it is enough to keep the troopers at bay.
I see them in the BANK, at the restaurants, at playgrounds and the mall…usually FAT, in black T-shirts, with the “gun wiggle” squirming and constant adjustments going on, because with an “inside the pants” holster and a full size duty weapon, the blubber has to be displaced somewhere. Painfully obvious to the skilled observer.
No, these are not CCW holders, they are cops, their BADGES print worse than their guns. CCW holders are more discreet than that.
Funny thing, I’ve NEVER seen ANYONE get upset over it. I’ve seen unformed cops walk up to perfect strangers and whisper “you cop?” when they see a weapon….a whisper in the ear, a light touch on their elbow or bicep, so as not to stress the situation. Usually it’s just a quick nod of acknowledgement between them, “juss checkin’ “ and its over.
And that’s when its serious….usually its just a discreet “hey buddy?” while pointing to your own waistband, the universal “fix your shit”, about as serious as telling a guy his fly is down.
Its never been an issue because “good guys” usually recognize each other. Like Soldiers or Marines on liberty in civilian clothes, we know who’s who. Cleancut, 20-40, straight looking, square, non-hipsters. I cant tell you how many DOZENS of times I’ve seen one armed man subtly acknowledge another armed man, with no stress or chaos. And again, the WORST offenders, the most easily “made” guys, in my experience have always been COPS.
And most “civilians” assume any clean cut blue eyed blonde headed white guy with a bulge that LOOKS like a gun, is probably a cop. I’ve noticed firearms, I’ve noticed OTHER PEOPLE NOTICE firearms, and I’ve never NEVER EVER seen anyone get their panties in a bunch over it, unless its completely out and in their hand.
I always preach that carrying a firearm also means carrying enormous RESPONSIBILITIES with it. None of my students take it lightly.
I used to train my civilian concealed carry students to “dress like a detective” as often as possible when armed. Sport coat, slacks, decent shoes, no funky hairdos, shiny Guido suits, no jewelry, no stupid hipster-ism rag-tag nonesense.
If you look like shit-head, you just might get treated one, so if your gonna be armed, dress like your grandfather going to church. That way, when the responding officer arrives at the scene of your self defense shooting, he’s more inclined to keep his hand on his HOLSTERED sidearm while he shouts “Sir, don’t move, tell me whats going on!” rather than simply opening fire on your sloppy criminal-looking ass as his first move
So what the f*&k happened with Scott? From his picture he certainly LOOKS like the type of guy I’ve SEEN DOZENS OF TIMES get a common courtesy from UNIFORMED OFFICERS IN THE EXACT SAME SCENARIO before. Ex military, clean cut, straight non hipster white bread kind of guy. A threat factor of negative ten, WTF?.
Good god, he must have been startled, shocked, just completely overwhelmed, thinking “WTF! We’re on the same TEAM!” with his hands in the air, trying desperately to comply with an inexcusably out of control situation he had ABSOLUTLY ZERO LEGITIMATE REASON to find himself in.
We’re on the same team…
But we’re not, not any more…
I don’t know when it happened, but things are very different than 10 or even 5 years ago.
I’ve always bitched about the “Union Bums with guns”, for 30 years now. But I always assumed it was the minority that made things so bad, I never believed they were a super majority of officers, but I’m not so sure any more.
If a guy like Scott can get blasted like that, for NOTHING, followed by such an obviously coordinated cover-up, we’re ALL in very deep shit now.
Semper Fi
P.S. to the L.E.O. apologists that will claim they’ve never seen what I describe,we had a name for you at Quantico
“Captain Oblivious”….the guy who gets his partner shot, or dies himself with a doughnut in his mouth
I don’t believe that there is such a thing as a former Army Officer. Officers are commissioned by act of congress, and serve for life, unless decommissioned by act of congress. They may be deactivated or reactivated and restored to their rank. Eric Scott is a murdered commissioned officer of the United States. Perhaps the Attorney General should look into it?
I love the way right wing guys make legal arguments.
A lot of hysterical, anti-cop statements here. If you are interested in more facts, read the Las Vegas Journal Review story.
When 3 Police officers are pointing guns at you, you should not let your hands go anywhere near your own hand gun. Whatever your intentions are doesn’t matter. It’s a physical thing. It’s the actual distance between your hand and the gun that counts. Just an advice to prolong your life. In the real world any person pointing a gun at you WILL shoot you, if your hand increases proximity to a gun. The classic “stand off” scenario from Hollywood movies where several actors are pointing guns at each other and nobody discharges their weapon is pure fantasy. Also police officers are trained to shoot if a suspect reaches for a weapon. They use still photos with hypothetical situations to train cadets. Scott trying to disarm himself would look exactly like one of those still photos from the police academy.
This could be a scenario from a test on a police academy:
You are responding to a Call about an armed robbery. When you arrive at the scene, you find the suspect in the parking lot (still photo of the suspect with a visible sidearm). You command the suspect to remain still and raise his hands (photo of suspect with his hands raised). Then the suspect says: “I will now disarm myself” whereupon he moves his hand toward his sidearm (picture of the suspect lowering his hand towards his sidearm). How do you proceed in this situation?
The correct answer is to shoot the suspect. Why? The police officers have no way of judging the validity of what the suspect says. He can say “I will disarm myself” and then use the gun to shoot the officers. Cadets are taught to act purely on the actual physical circumstances.
Still the Police Officers should be fired. Not because they did anything illegal. But because they are bad at their job.
Agree they should do years of time–should be accounted to be felons–and I’ll go with that. When you’re bad enough at your job that you kill people with an overt act, that should happen.
Concealed Carry means concealed. If the costco employee was able to see it, then it’s not. Nuff said..
No not nuff said Dim Bulb. Read more carefully. It has been established repeatedly above that Nevada is a legal OPEN carry state.
Good reason to cut back on Police Forces.They have become Working Welfare for returning Vets.Past time to pull the Tit from their collective mouths.
The tragedy is palpable. But the judgments rushed to in these blogs, based on a 500 word article, are also perplexing.
Most of the factors that may have produced this tragedy are covered. No sense repeating those possiblities here. But if I am a well-educated soldier, and armed with a concealed weapon, and surrounded by a dozen law enforcement officers with revolvers trained on me, I don’t blink precipitously without doing so in response to their commands.
Based on this article’s very brief summary, the victim (which he clearly is) had a multitude of other actions which he could have taken, also without being told, which stood a greater chance of preventing this tragedy. He could have knelt slowly, while keeping his hands in the air, then lowered his body to the ground face down, all the while keeping his hands in front of him. The officers knew he was armed. And reasonable people do not generally presume that minimum wage Costco employees possess uniformly matured reflexes around guns.
The analyses in these blogs assume a host of details not stated in the article. Don Bear’s observation is correct. Needless to say, we live in a world where some people overreact (including some police officers, Costco employees, and bloggers) and where some victims share responsibility, however small, for their own tragedies. Reasonable people tend to operate with these generalities in mind.
“Don Bear’s observation is correct.”
Don Bear’s observation is ludicrous. All of the responsibility for giving non-contradictory and appropriate orders lies with the police.
Costco can go to hell,before I purchase anything there.Lost Wages can also join them.After reading the forgoing posts, I’ll never trust another cop.It’s a new world where you can’t trust your government or the people whom are suppose to be there for your benefit.This includes the State and Federal Justice Depts.,
Your kids teachers,the local big box stores,your parish priest or the lawyer
you’ve hired.And last but not least by any imagination ,your President.
Stick by your family and your guns, the revolution is here!
I’m saddened by a number of things in this story. First off by the death of someone, who by all accounts, was a fine human being; and fell victim to human incompetence and stupidity. A close second, is the number of people who immediately ascribe this murder – yes, murder (four shots in the back?) – to the presence of minority officers on the force and/or who feel it isn’t getting proper publicity because the victim was some white, middle class,”regular Joe”.
Couple of things. First off the account makes no mention of the ethnicity of the officers. Most cops tend to be of one color – blue. Their loyalty is always to a fellow officer first. Police Departments will cover for ANY of their officers. As for lowering standards, do you really believe that standards were that much higher when departments were full of white ethnics whose only attribute was that they were the sons/nephews/relatives/friends of other white ethnics on the force.
Secondly, I saw all sorts of complaints about the lack of appearance by the gruesome twosome (Jackson or Sharpton), not to mention the lack of rioting. Guess what, despite faults too numerous to mention, those two have a point. This type of behavior has been going on for years vis a vis blacks and police. One of your posters immediately brought to mind the notorious Diallo shooting. You might say that blacks have been ahead of the curve, since we’ve been complaining about “trigger happy policing” just about forever. I guess shooting black guys just isn’t the “fun” it used to be (too easy); so they upped the ante and moved on to white guys. I would expect more of these types of incidents. As Lord Acton said: “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely.” What could be more corrupting then the “right” to murder?
When police have pointed their handguns at you, they think you are a threat to them. Unless you really, really, want them to shoot you, you should not do anything to make them think you are more of a threat.
Get your hands up high in the air, don’t move, don’t say anything, don’t do anything but keep your hands up while staying very still. The whole time they have guns pointed at you.
If they want your hands down, let THEM pull your hands down. DO NOT VOLUNTARILY LOWER YOUR HANDS WHILE THEY ARE POINTING GUNS AT YOU.
Let me see if i have this right. A West Point graduate, Army veteran, Duke MBA, gets shot in the back by policemen who only need to have a G.E.D. to get hired…..gee, what could have gone wrong?
First,I would day that the Costco cleark deserves some punishment here, too.
So, do I believe a word of what these cops say? No.
There have just been too many instances of out of control cops running around shooting what are apparently innocent people and, then, just getting off the hook. Too many militarized police departments around the country who have gotten a ton of money from the Federal Government over the years, and have used it to create SWAT teams; and once you set ‘um up, you gotta use them. Too many “mistaken” raids on innocent people, too many houses trashed, and too many people traumatized.
In 2006 in the Washington, D.C. area, there was the case of an unarmed optometrist, Dr. Salvatore J. Culosi, a successful practitioner with no criminal record, no history of violence, and no guns in his possession, who was gunned down in front of his house one evening by a member of a Fairfax County, VA SWAT team, dispatched to his house to serve a routine warrant for the production of documents related to him taking a few sports bets at a local bar.
The SWAT team member who shot him in the heart and killed him was cleared by his supervisors and federal authorities, was suspended for just three weeks, was removed form the SWAT team but is still on the force, and is now a detective.
The Culosi’s family’s wrongful death suit is set to start trial in January, 2011, 6 years after his death.
It is starting to look like over-armed, overbearing, trigger-happy police—immune to any real investigation and punishment–are getting to be a greater threat to innocent civilians than the thugs they are supposed to protect us against.
I will state right up front I’m a 22 year L.E.O. and have been a firearms, Use of Force and tactical trainer for 10 years. I’ve only been involved in one shooting incident (he knocks on wood) so I speak from more from a trainer’s perspective in regards to how shootings evolve. Most of you will smirk at my comments and dismiss them out of hand because of my admittedly biased perspective but I would like to add some observations that are founded in 20+ years of interviewing witnesses and an ever changing paradigm in Use of Force / Firearms training.
First off – eye witness accounts are notoriously unreliable, especially in high stress incidents such as a shooting.
- well trained officers are taught when dealing with a potentially armed individual IDEALLY only one officer issues short, clear and concise commands. This is to help prevent confusion of the suspect(s) and the officers involved. Unfortunately when adrenaline kicks in, Murphy’s Law, stressor factors such as auditory exclusion and the inevitable confusion that most calls tend to generate we commonly find several officers talking at once.
- current deadly force training teaches officers to shoot until they perceive the threat has been stopped. Once a deadly threat has been recognized it is no longer shoot once, maybe twice and then assess. Officers are taught to rapidly inflict as much damage as he/she can until the suspect ceases to be a threat. There are many reasons for this seemingly overly aggressive mindset. In many cases officers are reacting to a deadly force encounter so he/she is already 2 steps behind the suspect. ( Although not so in this case) Invariably his/hers initial accuracy has historically been very poor. Something around a 33% hit ratio. A determined suspect, contrary to Hollywood’s distortions, does not die or even slow down much until the spinal column or brain pan is disrupted, or they bleed out. There are numerous cases of bad guys being hit 20+ times and still fighting / shooting. Many suspects are wearing body armor, self explanatory.
- a fairly common phenomenon in multiple officer shooting calls is called sympathetic shots fired. An officer may shout out Gun! and engage the suspect and fellow officers react in same. The overwhelming majority of police officers are very conscientious and well trained so his brother and sister officers trust their judgement and will do what it takes to protect his life. Unfortunately if the primary officer makes a poor judgement call then others may unwittingly follow their lead.
- I don’t want to besmirch Mr. Scott in anyway and I like the author and fellow posters do not have all the facts, but common sense should dictate that if a cop is pointing a gun at you you do not make any furtive moves, especially reach for a weapon. A year doesn’t go by when an undercover officer is killed because he/she was holding a gun and was misidentified by fellow LEO’s.
- and lastly I’ll add that in my state there have been approximately 70 police involved shootings in the past 10 years and the Attorney General’s office declared each one a clean shoot. There is only one reason for this ‘perfect’ record, excellent, up to date Use of Force training. There is no cover-up, or a wink and a nod from the AG investigators. I’ve sat on the other side of their interview and even though my shoot was absolutely clean I was an uncomfortable feeling. If the shoot was unjustified, they would find out and bury you. Totally professional. The lead investigator lectures at every academy class and while I was an instructor there I heard him tell each class that we (the police) do not shoot quick enough. We actually put ourselves unnecessarily in harms way long after a call has risen to the deadly force threshold because we don’t want to potentially kill another person.
I hope the facts of this case are made public so we can come to an informed position. Mr. Scott, his family and friends, the involved officers and most importantly society deserves this.
Let’s see the videos.
Do you work in Vegas?
“- I don’t want to besmirch Mr. Scott in any[sic]way”
But as long as officers smell like a rose, I’ll be glad to.
“and I like the author and fellow posters do not have all the facts,”
The facts we have implicate the cops and Costco, primarily the cops. The facts we don’t have, we don’t have them because the cops are concealing them. Well justified conclusions are being drawn the cops are guilty, because they are acting guilty.
“but common sense should dictate that if a cop is pointing a gun at you you do not make any furtive moves, especially reach for a weapon”
To be explicit, you are saying the people on the other end of the gun are responsible for knowing when to disobey the direct order of a police officer pointing a gun at them, and it at worst a firing offense–or even just a matter for retraining–for a police officer to make contradictory demands of someone they are holding at gunpoint.
“A year doesn’t go by when an undercover officer is killed because he/she was holding a gun and was misidentified by fellow LEO’s.”
And the more I hear of murders like this, the more I think that’s one fewer thug to worry about.
“…The overwhelming majority of police officers are very conscientious and well trained…”
You had me right up to this.
If you truly believe this, you’re a fool. If not, you’re a liar. There’s no third option.
The “overwhelming majority of police officers” never fire their weapon outside yearly quals. Stories abound of cops with weapons rusted solid from being worn in too many sweaty days and never being cleaned.
The TRUTH is that the overwhelming majority of conscientious CITIZENS are much better trained than cops. I shoot nearly weekly. I compete in IPSC/USPSA on a regular basis – but due to physical handicap never score even close to the top. My marksmanship is impeccable, my ability to move is slow, so I lose.
Still, I’d bet a paycheck that if you were to pick AT RANDOM from standard detectives/patrol officers (ie: not your “swat” or other “special” cops) any “whole-bodied” cop, I’d beat him in a standard “practical shooting” challenge.
And – as I’ve said – I’m not even that good.
Personal situation aside, one needs only compare the hit-ratio of “Only-Ones” shootings to standard law-abiding citizen self-defense cases.
Every study done has shown that we regular-guys usually double or triple the hits. “Only-Ones” are several times more likely to hit an innocent, or to hit some other non-target down-range.
The undeniable FACT is that most “only ones” are barely competent with their sidearms.
Of course, it’s pretty easy to hit a standing, non-resisting target from 10 feet, but I digress…
I agree with you officer. I am a former criminal prosecutor myself. How do people NOT expect incidents like this to happen if random people can carry guns in the streets.
One more time for all the folks who thought the guy did something wrong. He. Did. Not.
Oh, do not do anything. Keep hands in the air. Say nothing.
And they will kill you for failing to comply with their “lawful” orders. Because you are a Citizen with a Gun.
The point is not how you should react. The point is that a perfectly law-abiding citizen, an obviously upright American Citizen, is in mortal danger from the cops, because they don’t know the difference between the good guys and the bad guys.
This man showed none of the signs of being some low-life. He was killed by the cops because he had a gun. Nothing more, nothing less.
The Citizen had a gun. He is dead because of it. So is freedom.
Does everyone here not see the danger of people carrying guns in public. The undisputed facts are that: 1. The guy had some kind of verbal altercation with the store clerk. 2. The store called the police. 3. The police handled it with the same caution as dealing with any armed suspect. 4. During the stand off, either the police or the suspect, or both, made a bad split second decision.
From a policy perspective, how would you expect this to play out differently?
1. verbal altercation: people get into arguments. Sometimes they escalate into fist fights. When someone brandishes a gun, it escalates 1000 times.
2. The police were called. How should the store have handled it? Should a store employee have pulled a gun on the shopper. Would they have gotten into a legal debate over the store’s right to set rules on its property exceeds the shoppers gun rights; or would they have shot each other dead. There are reasons why a civilized society only lets uniformed officers brandish weapons.
3. The police were cautious in dealing with an armed suspect. Do you expect that they’ll ignore that he has a weapon because he is white and right wing? White people commit crimes too. First they’ll disarm him, then they’ll investigate.
4. Either the police or the shopper made a bad split second decision. I don’t know or care which. Bad split second decisions will be made in situations like this.
People have correctly noted that the law says that the police must have probable cause to detain a suspect and that carrying a gun alone, in a concealed or open carry jurisdiction, does not alone create probable cause. This is a trivial objection in reality. This is how it works in reality: 2 guys get into an argument. One of them is macho and brandishes his gun. The other calls the police and says “a guy threatened me with his gun.” The police rush and have no choice but to make a full armed and dangerous stop.
The commenters are obsessed about who made a bad split second decision. Our reflexes are only so fast. When people brandish their guns, there is a serious danger that they will kill police, or be killed by police or other gunmen.
How can you let macho people brandish guns in public and not expect incidents like this to happen. I’m sorry for the loss of this young man. I’m at least glad no police were harmed.
It doesn’t make me mad so much as it causes me to feel sad that we have these people who are suppose to be our protecters and that we have to fear them. They get so hyped up in a situation as this, ready to shoot rather than ask questions. So hyped up that they don’t hear the answers to their questions or commands when given. All they are focused on is getting the person no matter what it takes or whether they are guilty or not. That is so sad because we depend on these people to protect us when in fact we need someone sometimes to protect us from them.
The employee(s) should be fired and the officers should face jail time, and lot’s of it. The constitution gives you the right to carry a firearm. I definitely will not be shopping at Costco again, unless the employees involved are fired.
Big Nasty,
My day job entails, among other things, reviewing wrongful use of force lawsuits and, while in private practice, I was one of the few attorneys in my area who would bring such litigation.
It is quite credible that here the officers panicked and multiple officers issued multiple simultaneous contradictory orders to the deceased, who was shot for obeying one of those – the one to drop his weapon. Which meant he had to lower his hands.
I personally believe, based on my hundreds of hours of experience as litigation counsel in such matters, that this is what happened because of the police statements about the video tapes being useless, and their failure to release the audio tapes. The events are more than six weeks old. This is a red flag indicating that the tapes show the officers screwing up.
In my opinion, this scenario is more likely than not true.
I doubt that the City of Las Vegas will produce the audio and video tapes in a civil wrongful death action by the victim’s family because expert analysis would show those were intentionally destroyed, and so consitute a criminal violation. They’ll just refuse to produce them in defiance of a court order.
This failure to produce the tapes in civil discovery will likely lead to an order for evidentiary sanctions that the tapes show that the officers issued multiple contradictory instructions to the deceased, one of which was to drop his weapon, and then shot him while he was obeying that order.
This evidentiary sanctions order will likely result in a defense summary judgment motion being denied, at which time the action will be settled out of court as I described above:
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gunned-down-in-vegas-what-really-happened-to-erik-scott/#comment-638464
“The family will settle their claims before trial, with the whole case being sealed and the Cone of Silence coming down on everything. The City of Las Vegas will addtionally pay the family’s attorney fees under 42 USC 1988. Costco and the City will settle, out of court, Costco’s claim for indemnity against the City for a portion of the money paid by Costco to the victim’s family to settle their claims.
And we’ll never know how much the family was paid, how much of that was paid by Costco verus how much by the City of Las Vegas, or whether the LVPD had for sure destroyed the surveillance camera hard drives.”
If that is the outcome, then it prove not that the Big Nasty is right but that police, the city and the rest know how to work the system to prevent likely murderous negligence from coming to light. While you are probably right, it is a result without justice involving the passing of money and the silencing of the family; more, it guarantees that such incidents will occur again and again.
I have encountered the justice system once. I defer to the video referenced earlier in the thread in which the law professor instructs his viewing audience never to talk to cops. In my experience, nearly everything the police do, in coordination with the District Attorney’s office, is for the purpose of getting that conviction. Whether the person is guilty or not does not really matter to them.
I’m not surprised by this. In Colorado, when you’re pulled over, if it comes back (using your license plate number) that you hold a CC permit, you WILL (Standard procedure) be removed from your vehicle at gunpoint, by several officers, and disarmed after being forced to lay face down on the ground, rain or shine or snow. This childish behavior by the police is for “officer” safety, and they actually, seriously, with a straight face, claim that someone will pay all that money for a CC permit, go through all that training, just for an “opportunity” to “take out” a cop. Usually this type of paranoia would be a treatable mental condition, but when practiced by police departments, it’s called “policy.”
We don’t hire the best and the brightest to be cops, trust me… And the longer any individual is part of a government heirarchy and a civil service union, the less common sense they tend to display.
No, I’m not a “cop-hater” but I see this sort of thing on almost a DAILY basis across the country, because cities and counties “don’t have the budget” to train the idiots they turn loose with dangerous weapons, nor do they seem to care how many lawsuits and settlements – or how many people they kill – with their ridiculous procedures and policies.
The answer? True accountablity, cops need to be prosecuted, and police unions need to be banned. They need to have training, and adult supervision. Both of which are lacking in most departments these days.
To: big nasty #133,
First of all you are totaly and completely full of shit, your screen name says it all. Twenty years on the force does not mean that you have any
compitence whatsoever. Secondly if you had read the statement of whom was soon to be his wife, amoung many other credable witnesses, all standing lessthan ten feet away,
he only moved after he was tasered by one of the morons. Third
of all one Officer had been involved in a “bad “shooting, just four years ago, and the other two had been on the force less than one year, ( sounds like real conpetent Officers to me ). And finally just because you type an eight hundred responce to a five hundred word artical does not make it any more credible.
Hey nasty, just another point:
“current deadly force training teaches officers to shoot until they perceive the threat has been stopped….it is no longer shoot once, maybe twice and then assess”
That because they cant hit anything.
Keep shooting , cause your MISSING THE TARGET!
This is GREAT training!
Your first MAGAZINE missed the target, RELOAD!
Anado Diallo, 55 shots, NYC groom, 50+ shots, Warminster PA SWAT 90 + shots, nobody hit above 10%
90% of you shots are wild!
SO, officer, all these missing, richocheting, whizzing DOZENS of bullets flying everywhere scared the crap out of you, and made you keep shooting, right?
A self fulfilling prophesy of INCOMPETENCE is a acceptable answer in an investigation?
And you support this idea as “training?”
Hint, spend some time with a real firearms instructor, forget EVERYTHING the department taught you, you are a danger to yourself and others!
Hey Nasty
“there have been approximately 70 police involved shootings in the past 10 years and the Attorney General’s office declared each one a clean shoot. There is only one reason for this ‘perfect’ record, excellent, up to date Use of Force training”
All the atrocious shoots with 50, 70, 90+ shots fired and very low hit rations in NY, NJ, + PA I’ve described were cleared as “clean shoots” too
Union Bums with Guns and 90% stray bullets, DOZENS of them, are good shoots according to the Government.
The goverments Idea if a lot of things (debt, finance, jobs, liberty) dont jive with reality….thats why their all bankrupt.
And think 90% failure rate in shootings are “clean”
Govt emloyees like YOU
ARE
THE
PROBLEM
He was murdered. The criminals who murdered him deserve to die.
Retry posting – 1st did not get thru.
It seems VERY preposterous that ALL FOUR Costco security cameras failed at the same time….!!??
COME ON, NOW !!!
We are not fools….
Retry #3.
Doesn’t anyone think its TOTALLY PREPOSTEROUS that ALL FOUR Costco cameras
would fail all at the same time !!???!!
COME ON, NOW – We are not fools.
Release the footage and we will be able to the check the kind of “failure”…
I have a question; where are the feds?
My wife and I joined Costco a little over a year ago, mainly to take advantage of their eyeglass prices (previously, there was no Costco within 40 miles). I’ve visited it maybe a half dozen times since joining, but only on my last visit did I notice a no firearms sign. It was painted on a glass wall centered between the widely-spaced entrance and exit doors (so not all that visible from either traffic lane), and down low, adjacent to the pavement, where I believe it is usually blocked by sales displays on pallets, which is why I never noticed it before. Or, as I now see, perhaps it NEVER WAS THERE before, and was painted on by corporate in response to this very incident.
I immediately made a complaint using their suggestion box, saying that it was an insult to their patrons, and that I would be avoiding their store in the future. It would probably make more of a point for me to demand a refund of my membership dues, but getting that by my wife may not be easy (especially since the membership is in her name).
In Arizona, this sign is legal — there are no official posting format requirements except for bars and restaurants, and any sign that communicates a trespass will serve. However, there is no legal expectation that you are aware of the sign, so the management has to inform you and ask you to leave before further legal action is appropriate. Additionally, no sign is actually required — if the management asks you to leave even verbally for any reason without specific civil rights protections (e.g., “we don’t serve black people”), you are trespassing if you don’t leave.
For the record, this customer was legally in the wrong maintaining he had a right to be there. This turned his misdemeanor trespass into felony armed trespass. His being a jerk helped neither him nor us. That having been said, his offense was not a shooting offense, and these police officers were criminally out of line.
Two issues: 1) Was he in fact asked to leave by 2) someone identifiable as a Costco employee?
Yeah murder is that for sure…out of line.
This is a travesty. His family needs to seek very high damages against all of those involved. Costco, the employee’s involved, and the police department. This should not go unpunished. It was absolute negligence.
Somebody ‘high up’ wanted Eric Scott very dead. This a bureaucratic “HIT”. I want to know the security gaurd’s identity and all others allegedly involved in the “set up”.
Did Eric shop there regularly? Was his presence there predictable? Had the store personnel seen him before?
The killing involving the “First Shooter” was also as well. And, he was allowed to continue on the force. Because, this is a crack ‘kill team’ and not a police unit.
Eric ruffled somebodies feathers, either during his military career, or afterward, somebody high up.
The truthful investigation, would now focus on who wanted Eric dead, who will benefit from it!
There was nothing “accidental” about it, from start to finish.
And, most of the comments on this thread are unwittingly complicit in covering up the TRUE nature of the incident.
This is a direct result of the anti-gun fear culture that’s been fostered by the left. A model American citizen excercises his God given and Constititutional right to carry a firearm to protect himself and those around him. One of the countless sheeple who automatically freak out when they see a “scary” gun has a panic attack and calls the police. And then our overly aggressive and under trained police show up and shoot him. And then they cover their own backs by protraying the guy as a deranged lunatic. Time to fight back against this leftist anti-gun fear culture which is ruining our society.
The cops that did the shooting are murderers. They should be arrested, tried, if convicted, then get the death penalty.
If not convicted, then it shows once again that the system is failing.
Chances are these cops will be exonerated. This is sad, because folks are starting to get the impression that encountering LEOs is a death sentence, and will soon start shooting first, thinking it’s better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
And just what medication was he on? And how does having an MBA, working for a company, or graduating from West Point have to do with what happened? Absolutely nothing.
The most important part of this story you just glossed over. So he was under the influence of some medication. That is rather important. It certainly can change behavior. You certainly should not be carrying a gun when you are under the influence of medication.
The point is, that someone with such a background is far less likely to be involved in drug abuse – period. The “most important part of the story” was “glossed over” because it is baseless as of now. Being that they have yet to release any evidence, which is surely damning to the police force, the man must be assumed to be innocent of all claims until proven otherwise. A blood test is the ONLY legal recourse for the police to prove he was under the influence.
Does having a CCW permit give a person the right to carry a concealed weapon onto private property? (i.e. CostCo)
Hopefullt an investigation by a third party will shed light of the events.
153 Federale, Prove it. Do you have access to the blood work up?
My $.02:
1. All military branches should boycott Costco until tapes are produced – and if not produced boycott them forever…
2. Vote Gillespie out of office – and for his obstruction of justice stick his butt(literally)in the general population of a gay jail
3. Lock up those 3 murdering cops along with the Costco crew as accessories to murder
4. Change the coroners stupid inquest process to INCLUDE the families of people who are killed
5. Teach these jokers a lesson they will never forget!!!!
What a way to repay all military veterans and people who have given their lives for this country!!!!!!!!! Makes me SICK, SICK, sick!!!
In PA a CCW holder may even carry legally in a court house unless a sign is posted (who’s language is spelled out in the law) and a secure place to lock up their weapon while in the courthouse must be provided. You may also carry in a school despite the gun free zone crap.
While it may be “store policy” to not allow firearms store policy does not carry the same weight as Law. If you are legally carrying under State Law then the store has no legal standing other than to try to press trespassing charges, but as the store is open to the public I don’t see how they could even do that.
I’m think we have a couple cops here, and possibly a Costco employee, he need to do some hard time and experience the pleasures of being Bubba’s jail cell girlfriend for a while.
Someone please correct me if I am mistaken, but can’t the audio be released on a Freedom of Information request?
firstly, I will admit that just because one has a CC license doesn’t mean they have the right to carry it inside private property. Also, I tend to side with police on incidents such as this – however, NOTHING adds up: an officer with a past history of shooting incidents, several shots to the back, shots under the armpit…VERY fishy
What a tragedy for all involved.
When cops have their guns trained on you, put your hands behind your head, slowly kneel, cross your ankles…let them disarm you…at least then you have a prayer of a chance. Put yourself in their shoes, they are scared, they think they might die or their partner may die…whatever you do…don’t make a move for your waistband.
Use of lethal force resulting in police homicide should routinely trigger immediate FBI involvement particularly for collecting evidence and collecting statements. It’s the only way to be sure. . No officer along on a homicide ever seems to say, “I tried to stop him from killing that guy,” do they? Nope. They always confirm he went for his gun or was drug crazed, slobbering blood, and irrationally disobeyed them. Police departments are perceived in the very best case as not reliable on wrongful death investigations of themselves when involved in homicide of civilians. If that perception is wrong, it will take the FBI to prove it. It’s gone too far.
In my state, one does not get a concealed handgun permit but a concealed weapons permit. A sharp stick can evidently be weapon enough to terrify the police. I chose not to get a permit because of fear. I’m more afraid of ten percent of the cops than the bad guys. If stopped in my car, my hands go on the top of the steering wheel, and don’t leave it without polite notice to the officer. It’s not perfect but maybe a help. I have an anecdote about a professional friend with a permit and handgun who was arrested, but detail might somehow cause him trouble in a case that’s cost him thousand and gone on several years. As long as it stays open, it isn’t a false arrest, you understand and lots of expense encourages a plea deal. Lucky he’s not dead.
Write your Congressman or woman, and senators. We need a Federal law.
“Put yourself in their shoes, they are scared, they think they might die or their partner may die…”
This line is really getting old. Either cops are scared 24/7, in which case they probably shouldn’t have this much power over others, or it’s just an excuse to pull the trigger. Either way it only serves to cover up bad actions.
And by the way, there’s no sure way to survive an encounter with police officers. You can grovel all you want and still wind up dead.
We need a federal law that mandates immediate federal investigation of police homicides, particularly for collecting evidence, and particularly if the department ever even once says they can’t find the evidence. Too often it turns up after ten months strangely incomplete or unusable.
An independent national poll is needed to confirm that a significant number of people have lost confidence in police departments’ investigations of allegedly justifiable homicide involving their department’s own officers.
There are too many stories like this one. Involving the FBI is the only way to be sure.
Write your Representative and Senators
Something stinks! In fact, more than one thing! Why did “dumb ass” reach for his weapon? Why did the police fire more than one shot when the suspect never fired a shot of his own? I’m sorry! There’s no justification for a policeman or woman firing more than one shot if the perpetrator has never fired his weapon! PERIOD!
You be the cop, okay? The bad guy draws on you, and you shoot him. Then you stand there and wait to see if he will or will not shoot and kill you? Or do you keep shooting until there is no doubt that he is both down and out?
Wounded bad guys can kill lots of good guys!
I think my days of going to Reno Air Races and shopping at Cosco are over. This incident defies all logic. Police officers are not god with a gun and most security guards I have had dealings with are wanna be Dirty Harry’s. I hope Cosco and Vegas as well as these so called officers pay a dear price!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
The sheer number of comments that this thread has generated should be a clue that this is a very hot issue–reflective of even larger trends–and one that is on many people’s minds.
The fact of the matter is that a majority of the key institutions of our American Republic, which were created and supposed to protect us and to defend and insure our freedoms, have been taken over by the Left, have become corrupt, and have now become threats to those freedoms.
We see this corruption, this open disregard for the rule of law and its even-handed application, this unwillingness to be accountable, and these dictatorial tendencies on flagrant display in our Congress, in the Presidency of Barack Hussain Obama, in his Executive Branch, and in his un-Constitutional system of Czars–un-vetted and therefore unaccountable to Congress and citizens, reporting only to Obama (shades of the “personal oath,” the “Hitler oath,” that members of the Wehrmacht, the Nazi party, and the German government had to take to Hitler, and not to the Constitution of Germany), and busily working behind the scenes doing we know not what—because the vast majority of the MSM refuses to report on what they are doing.
We see this corruption in our Judicial Branch, with more and more judges making law rather than applying the law that is laid down in our Constitution and Bill of Rights; our fundamental, founding documents which these judges increasingly tell us are “archaic,” “outdated,” and “insufficient,” and which are rapidly being lost to their sight, as these judges go off in their own directions, fleeing from our fundamental principles.
We see this corruption in what used to be called the Press—our present day MSM—which cooperates with, acts of the agent of, and echoes the Left and our corrupt, reckless, and out of control Congress, and echoes and cooperates, too, with the other members of our new “ruling class” of bureaucrats and privileged elites of various sorts—government officials, the UN, heads of supposedly objective NGOs, members of the Academy and the Entertainment Industry, George Soros and the the uncounted myriad of his front organizations, heads of Multi-national Corporations, Union leaders—to tell us that we are ignorant, dumb, potentially violent and racist, and that we should just “shut up and sit down,” because they know—far better than we could ever possibly know–what is best for us.
And so, in the words of J.L. Talmon’s seminal 1952 book, “The Origins of Totalitarian Democracy,” the members of our new “ruling class” will “force us to be Free,” as they define “Freedom”-–whether that means what type of energy, medical care, food or consumer goods they judge best for us, and we are allowed to chose from, how much we will pay for them, and what types of toilets or lighting, cars or household appliances we are allowed to have, or whether we are allowed to have a gun for personal protection, as our Constitution guarantees. Their aim is to control, regulate, and to restrict the choices we are allowed to make in each and every arena and situation, for while we have been lulled to sleep and distracted by the MSM, they have staged a mutiny, they have seized control of the helm, and they intend to steer our ship on a new course of their choosing.
Our increasingly militarized and out of control police—like members of Congress and other members of the “ruling class” increasingly immune to scrutiny and prosecution–continue this trend, and surveying the news, many of us see the police as becoming no longer the guarantors of our “peaceful enjoyment” of our lives, and as agents of a system of even handed application of the law to bring about order, but rather as out of control and/or coercive agents of this new “ruling class” that has slowly come into being, for (at some level) they know that weapons in the hands of citizens are dangerous things for dictatorships and would be masters, and shooting and killing someone who dares to claim his right to own and carry a gun is a major discouragement to other citizens who might have similar ideas; it is all of a piece.
I believe that the above is the overarching problem that has drawn large volume of comments here.
I keep reading all of the coments and what it boils down to is that a guy went into a store and was buying a backpack or cooleror something to hold bottled water. While there he opened a package of water that he was planning on buying and was approached by an employee who got a glance of a gun that was supposed to be conealed and started this whole incident. The consumer didn’t do anything wrong because the store wasn’t posted but was executed by the police for not doing anything wrong but being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
If the police accidently erase Costco’s tapes then the family needs to demand that they be turned over to them because they can normally be partially restored using advanced recovery technology. If the tapes are completely erased then the family can probably show that the police erased the on purpose to prevent the possibility of the information on the tapes.
The main thing is that the victim didn’t do anything wrong except let his gun become visible to the Costco employee, and for that he was exicuted.
Since the cops won’t release either the video or audio tapes, we are forced to believe there is lying and a coverup, by the police.
Military personel are taught, when given conflicting orders, to obey the last order given.
I have read that the cops just kept screaming conflicting orders (like a bunch of crazed kids), because of the police cover up, we have no legitimate way of knowing what the last order, he heard, was.
Teh only logic in this whole situation was provided by the victim. He did nothing wrong or illegal.
Whatever Scott did before the shooting, if even one bullet was fired into his back while is was on the ground, that makes this a murder pure and simple.
If you or I were defending our homes and shot an intruder and he fell to the ground, where upon we poped him a few more times just for good measure, D.A.s would be lining up to send our butts to jail for murder.
The same standard applies to the cops. A Coup de grâce in today’s legal world = murder pure and simple, even if he had his gun out and was waiving it around, after he was down a single bullet more means 20-life for the idiot on the trigger.
And if he was truly completely innocent which from what I have read (granted with a typical conservative’s skepticism of government and everything someone from the government has to say) innocence appears to be the case, everyone who pulled a trigger on this guy needs to fry, or get injected or hang or whatever the Nevada state method of execution happens to be this week.
This may be a good reason for those of us who have concealed weapons permits to start wearing body armor, but that might be an over reaction.
Hailing as a sympathetic hero, a junkie who pulled a gun on a cop. Tune in tomorrow to sing “Kumbaya” for spouse beating crack heads.
The contractors of the municipal corporation having administration over this area (Los Vegas? County?) need to be “leaned up” for millions, rendering completely insolent, destitute, homeless.
If the aforementioned corporations attempt to “cover up” for their contractors (cops), they should also be leaned up, only for billions.
As for the Costco corporation, it should be sufficient that we never shop there again. Let them eat dirt.
never did like costco to begin with,all officers in this case should be suspended without pay and be forced to pat restitution to his girlfriend and his family.what and the hell gives cops the right.if this had been a normal citezen they eould have been sent to prison.give them a gun and a badge and they think they run the country.
Is it just me or have you ever noticed when you get pulled over…every cop that asks your for license and registration is either Fat, skinny and short or just down right the dumbest MOFO you have ever met
Interesting, all the “experts” on here, spouting off about how the police murdered this hero. Seems the facts are just a bit different than the fantasy mentioned by so many in previous posts.
So far, we have a previous incident where Scott pointed his firearm at a dog owner after the owners dog, who had gotten loose and may have bit Scott. One thing to defend yourself if you are attacked by a dog, but to assault the dogs owner when he shows up?
The coroner and several of Scott’s doctors all testified the very high amount of pain killers in Scotts system, prescriptions he had for them, using more than one doctor and pharmacy to get more drugs, his admission of the use of street drugs to include cocaine, ecstasy and steroids. When he died, Scott had potentially fatal levels of the painkiller morphine and the anti-anxiety drug Xanax in his system, according to a toxicology report. The morphine in his system, 1,800 nanograms per milliliter, was more than four times enough to kill most people, and the level of Xanax, 390 nanograms per milliliter, was at the top of the lethal range. Because Scott was walking around partaking in daily activities, he probably had developed a tolerance to the drugs, though they could have made him drowsy, lethargic and clumsy. Several of Scott’s Doctors terminated their relationship with him and another almost did. Scott was referred for a mental evaluation and for a detoxification program.
Multiple witnesses testified that Scott was pacing up and down an aisle, talking to himself, tossing merchandise around, trying to fit the same type of thermos into the same type of insulated bag that did not work when he previously tried, etc. When approached and told of the Costco no firearms policy, rather than understand a private property owners rights and leave the store to secure his weapon, Scott jumped up and immediately stated in an agitated voice that he was a Green Beret and he had a right to carry a weapon.
Multiple witnesses so far have testified that they say Scott reach for, grip, draw and begin to raise his concealed handgun toward one of the officers. He did this after elbowing the officers hand who had grasped Scott’s arm when he identified himself to Scott. Scott then turned toward the officer and reached for his weapon.
The Costco store had video surveillance system that records to a DVR. Days prior when trying to view video looking for an incident, the loss prevention supervisor could not get the system to play anything back from inside the store. They contacted their video system vendor, tried some things on the phone and still could not play back. A work order was generated for the system repair. Some part was bad and ordered. After the shooting, the police tried to review video and could not. They sent a forensics specialist who also tried with the same results. While I have not heard testimony, I believe they eventually took the DVR and sent it somewhere to see if they could recover anything. That part might be covered with the over 40 more witnesses they have set to testify.
Yup, cold blooded murder, except not. Military officer who could not possibly have done anything in order for a police officer to respond with deadly force, except not. No witnesses who saw Scott go for his handgun, except not.
Perhaps you anti-cop idiots could wait until you actually hear some testimony from witnesses before you convict the officers involved? Additionally, you do realize that no officer is facing criminal charges, right? The inquest is not a trial nor should it ever be. If an officer had a reasonable belief that he was protecting himself or another from threat of death or serious bodily harm, he may employ deadly force. Even if it turns out that there was no gun and the officer made a horrible mistake, it’s not a criminal act.
Sorry to bring in something close to facts, now you may all go back to your “expert” opinions, Monday morning quarterbacking and anti-cop rhetoric.
It doesn’t matter if he was a ‘disreputable’ citizen or not – the police weren’t responding to a guy who shot a dog owner or held up a pharmacy – they were responding to a guy who “has a gun”, and evidently, a license to carry it.
Even if he didn’t have a “license” to carry it, I still don’t see what rationale there is for four or five cops to surround someone and shoot them in a store parking lot. Lots of stray bullets, and lots of reasons such an action is NOT sound public policy.
Which is the more dangerous to the safety of our streets or the stability of our society? A (maybe) stoner who is acting (maybe) strange in a store, but not threatening or harming anyone, or a ‘SWAT’ response of on-edge, trigger-happy cops, ready to ‘take down’ anyone at a moment’s notice?
Two quirks when you add people and guns. First one fires triggers the others and they will all fire. I have seen this when out hunting and had a cop buddy tell me the same thing.
Also, cops responding to a gun usually seen to leave their brain at home. Their was a woman sitting in a car asleep, she had a gun sitting in her lap, instead of just leaving her alone or taking cover and waking her, they got right up on the car and woke her, she grabbed for her pistol, normal reaction when feeling threatened and having gone to sleep. They shot her full of holes. If you choose to sleep in your car, put something over your pistol and remind yourself to be cool, calm and collected when you awake. Beats getting shot to death.
“It doesn’t matter if he was a ‘disreputable’ citizen or not…”
Your right, it does not. What matters is that the family has spent a lot of money (money that could have been used to pay for the Doctor’s recommended psychiatric evaluation and drug detox program that he told his Doctors he could not afford) to tell us what a great guy, fine upstanding citizen, West Point grad this guy was who did absolutely nothing and was murdered by the police.
The witnesses tell a story of a drug dependant guy doing irrational things, lying about who he is (Green Beret), carrying two concealed weapons while under the influence of narcotics (misdemeanor), refusing to leave private property after being told to(misdemeanor) who when confronted by multiple uniformed police officers, against their yelled commands, drew his weapon so that it was aimed toward one of the police officers.
The point is he was not shot for ripping open merchandise and acting oddly as is suggested by some on here, rather for drawing a handgun toward a police officer.
“I still don’t see what rationale there is for four or five cops to surround someone and shoot them in a store parking lot. Lots of stray bullets, and lots of reasons such an action is NOT sound public policy”.
I’m sure you see it as sound public policy for the police to wait until they, or someone else is shot before they shoot an armed suspect who is drawing a firearm in their presence, toward them, while they are ordering him not to.
“…but not threatening or harming anyone…”
Really? Anyone who draws a weapon on several armed, uniformed police officers ordering you not to…I’m thinking is going to get shot.
Isn’t it odd how the pistol was found still in the holster by the crime scene guys? Laying on the ground where he dropped it when commanded by the police?
Do you often leave your pistol inside the holster when you qualify? Just unhook the entire holster and drop it on the ground at your feet with the gun inside? Has that improved your score?
Prescription and ccw two pieces of paper that can kill you, who knew ?
Listen to the 911 tapes. They are available.
Justified shooting.
Done.
I will never shop at COSTCO again. I hope Scott rests in peace. I don’t have the facts as to if they acted improperly or not but it’s a well known fact that police officers don’t want citizens to be armed.
some costcos do and some do not have signs “no firearms”.
Also the only buildings that guns are illegal in are government buildings and schools, the individual business policy states they “request” you dont carry there, it isnt illegal…just like casinos. It is not against the law just against the business owners wishes. You here about officer involved shhotins in vegas about every three months, makes you wonder how many innocent people were murdered by police tailoring the “facts” I carry ccw and Im more nervous about the day a metro officer sees my gun than the day i have to use it on an attacker…sad
Watching the court proceedings it occurred to me that Costco and the police had created an extremely dangerous situation for the customers in Costco. Once the policemen drew their weapons, pointed them at Mr. Scott, and began yelling commands they had made a mountain out of a molehill. They had created a situation with some very bad possible outcomes. Erik then had to jump through the hoops correctly or end up dead. Do we live in a free Republic? If a policeman can draw a gun on us for exercising a God-given right, bark commands, then shoot us with impunity, perhaps this is no longer the land of the free and the home of the brave. I feel bad that we have some policemen who are so scared they can no longer interact with the public in a rationale manner. Fortunately many areas do not have this problem and the law enforcement officers are solid citizens who act logically. Las Vegas appears, given it record of shooting unarmed citizens and citizens dropping guns, to have a big training problem.
After listening to both sides I think the police officers need addtional training because Its my feeling they might have over reacted but lets get the facts of 911 call that COSTCO made because it might give a insight of why the Officers responed and felt the publics life was in Danger. I am a CCW holder and I hope I never get into a battle with the cops because I carry to defend myself and others to live not die, cops need to train to understand CCW holders.
Don’t draw your weapon at a police officer and you won’t have a problem. What’s so hard to understand about that?
You are minding your own business, packing a concealed weapon as is your right by law. Your gun is in its holster, concealed. You leave the building along with everyone else and as you exit you are ambushed by multiple police officers, one of which screams at you,
“Drop your weapon!!!!!”
To comply, or not to comply?
A bad shoot and an even worse cover-up. Retch.
It’s up to this man’s family to exact revenge on these gestapo wannabees.
WHITETIGER: HIDDEN SCUMBAG
ANONYMOUS: The man did NOT draw his gun on anyone :he was kiled in cold blood by criminally hysterical uniformed thugs.Scott’s family needs to bankrupt Las Vegas, Costco and the murdering thug(Mosher) who all participated in this murder.Let’s start a national boycott of Costco,leed by the NRA. .As for you, anonymous,keep trying to pass the police exam,maybe one day,you’ll make it(they keep lowering the standards all the time) then they’ll give you a badge and let you kill someone in cold blood. I’m sure it will be the high point of your life.
“ANONYMOUS: The man did NOT draw his gun on anyone.”
Except you were not there and dozens of witnesses say he did. If you want to stick your head in the sand and defend your ignorant position, go ahead. You are the one that looks foolish.
I see you can’t debate an issue on facts which is why you resort to your sophomoric attacks on someone you have absolutely no knowledge of.
High on narcotics, behaving oddly, inappropriate response to a legitimate request to follow their policy and when confronted by uniformed police, does not follow their orders but instead draws a concealed firearm and points it at one of them. Who’s really surprised at the outcome, other then the irrational cop haters?
It’s pretty obvious Costco knew they had a problem early on and coached their employees prior to giving statements. From what I heard, they were all together in the tire area.I also believe they erased some of the tape. I have decided to stop shopping at Costco.
I work retail as a mechandiser in many different kinds of stores. Costco employee statements that they have never spoken about this again to each other is insane!! Retail stores are little rumor and gossip mills.
I’ve watched our Metro officers get away with this kind of thing for years. It makes me physically ill every time it happens.
I see why Office Mosher is trigger happy, he sure can’t defend himself any other way. Don’t we have weight standards in Vegas for our cops like other cities I’ve lived in do?
Why are all the people called to testify really old? I usually see a younger crowd there. The one on the stand now doesn’t even know how long she’s lived in Las Vegas? How can she be a reliable witness?
I hope the family finds some peace in knowing many of us don’t support Metro and think Eric was murdered in cold blood.
They’ll get away with it, they always do.
Mr. Scott is to blame for his own death.
Go back & read Alex’s post.
yeah, he shot himself..esp the 4 in the back. dumb remark
he had a permit, the police knew this, he had done nothing to anyone that would requir