Gun Microstamping: Democrat Ignorance Threatens Manufacturing Jobs
Remington Arms has already moved much of their skilled operations and management to North Carolina because of the tax policies of New York state, and now it appears to be on the verge of moving the rest of its facilities, all due to microstamping legislation:
Microstamping, or ballistic imprinting, is a patented process that uses laser technology to engrave a tiny marking of the make, model, and serial number on the tip of a gun’s firing pin to allow an imprint of that information on spent cartridge cases. Supporters of the technology say it will be a “game changer,” allowing authorities to quickly identify the registered guns used in crimes. Opponents claim the process is costly, unreliable, and may ultimately impact the local economies that heavily depend on the gun industry, including Ilion, N.Y., where Remington Arms maintains a factory, and Hartford, Conn., where Colt’s manufacturing is headquartered.
“Mandatory microstamping would have an immediate impact of a loss of 50 jobs,” New York State Sen. James Seward, a Republican whose district includes Ilion, said, adding that Remington employs 1,100 workers in the town. “You’re talking about a company that has options in other states. Why should they be in a state that’s hostile to legal gun manufacturing? There could be serious negative economic impact with the passage of microstamping and other gun-control laws.”
Microstamping tooling is extremely expensive, prone to breakage, easily disabled, and ineffective on entire families of weapons. Let’s take a deeper look at what microstamping does, and how easily it is beaten.
Microstamping is a series of letters and numbers reverse printed on the firing pin of weapons. In theory, when a gun is fired, the firing pin will leave a mark on the cartridge’s primer (the rim of a rimfire cartridge), and the shell casing recovered at the scene will provide law enforcement information about which gun fired the cartridge. Cops will enter the microstamping code into a computer, which will check it against a database, and the police will know who the shooter is within minutes.
At least, that is the theory. Reality is another matter. For starters: microstamping fails to work on any firearm that already exists, something in the neighborhood of more than 300 million firearms. As firearms last indefinitely, it would be decades before they became a significant number of total firearms — even if the technology was foolproof.
And the criminals who illegally acquire guns can if they so desire take a piece of crocus cloth and remove the engraving. 5 minutes max? I think we really are getting stupid.
If they illegally acquired the gun they wouldn’t care about the microstamp because it would have never been associated with them but with the original purchaser.
They would want to remove the microstamp because if they were arrested in possession of the weapon, it could link them to a crime. Either remove the microstamp or dispose of the weapon and get another. Either approach is very easy for those who aren’t inclined to obey the law.
Yup, and in the future it would open up a whole new branch of unintended consequences as people steal guns to kill someone in HOPES that it will be tracked back to the owner.
It’ll be a huge burden on gun manufacturers and a huge boon for after market firing pin manufacturers.
Or, better yet, use the same five minutes to swap out the firing pin. This is further evidence of the anarchy caused by having bureaucrats who know absolutely nothing about firearms create legislation about firearms. Sorta like having the pinheads in Washington control healthcare. ‘Course, the same imbeciles who think that this boondoggle will stem crime are the ones who don’t want to keep criminals in prison for extended lengths because it’s inhumane. IMHO it is the mission of politicians who push this kind of law to simply price as many Americans as possible out of firearm ownership. Extremely deceitful!!!!!
The argument about “spoofing” by picking up used brass from a shooting range does not hold water. First, no one reloads rimfire cartridges because they are usually .22 caliber and not worth reloading. Second, the firing pin strikes the primer on a centerfire cartridge and the primer has to be removed and replaced with a new one in the reloading process. The firing pin does not leave a mark on the brass part of the cartridge.
In a well thought out crime, it might be feasible for a criminal to leave behind spent cartridges taken from a shooting range if s/he had recovered all of his/her own cartridges used in the crime. Most of the time the criminal is in a hurry to depart the crime scene and doesn’t have that kind of time.
Sure it does. If it’s a pre planned crime, and not a random act of violence. First, if the victim has only been shot 5 times, and the police find 3 dozen casings from a dozen different guns, it certainly raises an element of doubt as to who the actual trigger man is.
Second, a lot of different cartridges (bullets) can be fired through weapons of similar caliber. A .45 long colt revolver is used, retains all casings, and .45 ACP shells are left at the scene. Everyone’s favorite street crime caliber the 9mm can be fired (with half moon clips) through a .357 revolver once again retaining casings so others can be left behind. Or even better load the lighter 9mm bullets into .38 or .357 brass.
In a premeditated crime microstamping is just one more detail to premeditate about.
I’m afraid that you missed the point entirely. Why would a criminal reload the casings? They would want to simply scatter some used cases (complete with stamped primers or .22 rims) around after a shooting to point the authorities at an innocent person.
I didn’t see it in the article but the microstamping proposal isn’t just for the firing pin of a rim-fire, it is also etched into the breechblock, so it effects center-fire as well.
This might help, rik.
We’re not talking about reloading, but planting cartridge casings.
Use a revolver, then spread some casings from a pistol of the same calibre around the scene. Police finds the casings, arrests the gun owner, casings are evidence he did it, automatic conviction, case closed.
Sheep don’t understand guns.
Yup
Yes, but if it would save the life of (sniffle) just ONE CHILD…(sob)…
Come to Texas, Colt. We support the 2nd amendment, all the others too…What more logical place for Colt to move to than TX? Many other businesses have already…we have plenty of potential employees that are not left of Lenin too….
Ah, you beat me to it.
Come to Texas by all means. We want industry.
Come to Mississippi or any southern state that will appreciate you company.
As an ex-Nutmegger who’s driven by both the original Colt factory in Hartford just off I-91 with the beautiful onion dome to the drab West Hartford plant, and had grown up with a Hartford boy’s pride in Samuel Colt, I hereby invite that wonderful company down to Georgia. Texas is OK if you must, but Georgia could use you, too. And besides, the winters are better than Texas.
There are a few onion domes here in Texas. As for winter here, it goes from cold, icy and windy in the panhandle plains to warm and sunny in the south.
(Saint King David IV of Georgia faced the jihad of Sultan Mohammed ibn Mohammed with a small army and won completely. It’s the other Georgia.)
Keep in mind that the EPA is fining petroleum companies for not putting additives in their gasoline to reduce “greenhouse gases”. The reason the companies aren’t using these “special” additives is that they don’t exist- rather, they are theoretical compounds that the EPA’s “experts” insist can be synthesized. The fact that so far, no one who has tried (including the EPA itself) has succeeded in doing so is irrelevant, to them. They are in a position to make demands for what they perceive as perfection, and everyone else had better damn well fall in line, or else.
This is probably the same mentality at work in NY and CN. The “experts” in government have what they regard as a Great Idea, and the power to force everyone else to do things their way. And of course, “everyone else” foots the bill.
And, as a bonus, if it doesn’t work, they can use its non-use as an excuse to completely prohibit the activity it applies to. Which, with the manufacture and sale of guns, as with the manufacture and sale of gasoline, they are opposed to on principle.
It is entirely possible that this measure, as with EPA’s viz. gasoline, may be simply a deceitful ploy to put the manufacturers out of business, thereby removing their Evil Product(s) from reality.
No, rational legislators do not behave this way. But “progressives” are dogmatic ideologues. By definition, they’re about as “rational” as religious fanatics.
If Remington and Colt, or the oil companies for that matter, are feeling a bit like Chinese Gordon must have felt when surrounded by the Mahdi’s forces at Khartoum right now, I can’t say I really blame them. Don’t forget that the Mahdi offered surrender terms, Gordon & Co. accepted them, and then the Mahdi said “just kidding!”, and massacred Gordon and his men anyway, because he had never intended that they should survive, period.
Where’s that relief column, anyway?
clear ether
eon
“Where’s that relief column, anyway?”
Only two days away. heh
Thanks for another great post eon. What you post is always well thought out and articulated.
Oh, and never forget — it’s a TAX — only a tax!
Wow, considering that the only possible products of burning a hydrocarbon are water vapor, carbon monoxide, and carbon dioxide, all three of which are greenhouse gases, I can’t see what they can add to gas to reduce the greenhouse gas emission without making it useless as a fuel.
If the government is using similar fridge logic on guns, we’re in deep trouble.
“The expensive, useless technology may drive gun plants out of New York and Connecticut”
That is fine with a liberal, they dont understand manufacturing, dont care to and they fear guns on an errational level. That mix only means one thing. Doom.
ParaOrdinance relocated to North Carolina, so there is already a budding skilled workforce here experienced in firearms manufacturing – and they even make AR-15 and M1911 model weapons. I think there are some other manufacturers in this state as well.
Since Remington makes a sporterized AR15 as well as an M1911, and Colt was the original manufacturer of the AR15 and M1911 (and still makes them), an excellent argument could be made that this would be a prime destination to consider moving to.
Then you have the fact that North Carolina is a very hunter/shooter friendly state that would love to add another industry to the employment stats.
Then you have Charlotte, which has a very highly developed banking industry that would probably make financial transactions very efficient.
North Carolina is a ‘Right to Work’ state, so unions are not a major factor unless Remington and/or Colt decide to drag those problems with them when they relocate.
It’s easy to travel to pretty much anywhere, nationally or internationally, from North Carolina so shipping shouldn’t be an issue.
There are a lot of ex-military types living here who are quite familiar with both main weapons Remington and Colt manufacture who would make excellent and strongly motivated employees who are very patriotic.
Hmm…what else?
Excellent climate, lots of available industrial and office facilities, geography ranges from mountains to coastal areas, lots of entertainment options for relocated executives, great housing options….
Why haven’t they moved here already?
“Why haven’t they moved here already?”
Hurricanes?
Yeah, I’ve got nothing. I’ve been to NC several times, and it is on the short list of places I wouldn’t mind living. I particularly liked Asheville.
Actually ArmaLite is the original manufacturer and in fact the inventors of the AR15 as well a many other modern days weapons.
“With both the AR-10 and AR-15 designs sold to Colt, ArmaLite was left without a viable major infantry arm to market to potential manufacturers and end users. ArmaLite next developed a series of new rifle designs in 7.62 mm and 5.56 mm. The 7.62 mm NATO rifle was designated the AR-16. The AR-16 and the other newly-designed ArmaLites utilized a more traditional gas piston design along with stamped and welded steel construction in place of aluminum forgings. The 7.62 mm AR-16 (not to be confused with the M16) was produced only in prototype quantities. Another ArmaLite project was the AR-17, a two-shot autoloading shotgun based on the short-recoil principle and featuring a weight of only 5.5 pounds thanks to its aluminum and plastic construction; only about 1,200 were ever produced.” Source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArmaLite
Like literacy tests and poll taxes, micro-stamping is just one more back-handed attempt to limit Second Amendment rights.
Most Confused Post Of The Day – WIN!
I think Mike009′s mention of literacy tests and poll taxes referred to the 15th amendment, like this goofy microstamping idea refers to the 2nd amendment.
What Mike009 is probably referring to is the fact that Jim Crow laws were first used to take away guns from African Americans who had recently been slaves, and were very quick to make sure they were armed in order to both hunt for food for their families and protect themselves against angry mobs and later on the KKK. They went to May-issue permits for both concealed carry and normal firearm use, and then used the poll taxes and literacy tests to deny African Americans their voting rights. Without the means to both protect themselves while protesting their unconstitutional treatment, and having difficulty overcoming both the poverty and lack of education that Plessy v. Ferguson produced (separate but equal doctrine), many African Americans found themselves disenfranchised. Plus, the inability to bear arms also allowed armed Klansmen to stand outside polls and convince them to not vote. Because they could not vote to change the gun laws due to Jim Crow laws, African Americans were deprived of many of their constitutional rights including their 2nd Amendment rights.
Remington and Colt should have moved a long time ago!
The basic criteria for any law governing technology must be: will it work in the real world, and is it cost effective? Perhaps the anti gun people should demand that all weapons be made of diamonds. They would be legal, but hideously expensive, would not work, and hence no sane person would buy one. Our second amendment would become an empty shell, be eviscerated by a state law. This is the intent here, to screw up law abiding people, in a legal business. Politicians who propose such nonsense must explain why they are not liars.
As a engineer who has worked in materials, there are ways to identify weapon components, at a modest cost, which would link a weapon to the residuals of crime scenes. They work like the finger prints of weapons. IF, an assumption, legislators truly want to empower police detective work, they should ask the hated enemy, the gun industry, for help. But they know this. My judgment is that they only want votes and contributions, and if they drive people out of business, they do not care.
This philosophy of governance is destroying our nation.
The basic criteria for any law governing technology must be: will it work in the real world, and is it cost effective?
Those should be the mandatory criteria for any law or regulation, not just those related to technology. Unfortunately, we have bureaucrats churning out thousands of new regulations every year with little or no regard to practicality or cost effectiveness. One idea I read elsewhere is that each major executive department be limited to a total page count of regulations (specifying margins and font sizes so no trickery like microprinting would be allowed), say 200 pages. If they need to write a new regulation, if the page count is exceeded, they have to rescend an existing regulation. That would go a long way to cleaning up outdated regulations and forcing the agencies to prioritize.
Talk to your legislator or Congressman; “bureaucrats” have no authority to promulgate regulations unless specifically authorized to do so by the legislative body that enacts the law under which said regulations are promulgated.
Commonly, legislators are too ignorant or lazy to pass sufficiently detailed legislation so they punt all the details or implementation and administration of a law to the executive branch, and then they wonder how the law they passed got totally out of control. Another factor is that lobbyists often draft legislation and then get some pet legislator to carry their water. Lobbyist-drafted legislation often gives wide regulatory authority because it is much easier for a lobbyist to buy a few drinks or serve up a hooker to one bureaucrat with regulation authority than it is to buy enough drinks and hookers to get a majority of a legislative body to agree with him.
As much as I hate my local, state, and federal legislators, I can sympathize to a point. Have you ever watched them vote. It’s like a whole day of pushing buttons. You are absolutely correct that this stuff gets hammered through without them noticing, but it isn’t always because they are too lazy, its because they are overwhelmed. It is the system as a whole where everyone is trying to get the government to do their little bit of bidding. We as a culture allow this. Whenever something gores our Ox we think their oughta be a law.
A great moment in an otherwise mediocre movie was James Garner and Jack Lemmon riding in a car as former presidents on the run. After taking the husband of the family that had picked them up as hitchhikers for their ignorance of government, the husband says, “what about the voice of the American people.” Jack Lemmon says “The voice of the American people? There is no such thing. You got 240 million voices all screaming for something different.”
BINGO ! — Our modern, “non-absolute”, culture generates a “cult” of leadership from behind. The result is vague laws and assinine regulations trying to implement and enforce them, taken together generating Billions of waste.
“The basic criteria for any law governing technology must be: will it work in the real world, and is it cost effective?”
Wrong, wrong, wrong!
The basic criteria is whether the law violates anyone’s rights. Forcing a manufacturer of anything to add a feature is a violation of the manufacturer’s right to use their private property as they see fit.
The *only* just exception is if the manufacturing process violates someone else’s rights (causes or substantially threatens to cause physical harm, or prevents others from the enjoyment of their private property) and the law effectively addresses or prevents this violation.
Unfortunately there is also the much abused concept of “externalities”. The Progressives can conceive of all kinds of external affects of one’s actions, the cost of which is borne by others (think pollution or going to the ER without money or insurance). This they believe gives them the license and the duty to control and tax that activity. Personal rights and freedoms, they feel, are secondary to this principle and it doesn’t matter if the remedy is effective or not – so long as the presumed costs are paid by the perpetrator into society’s coffers (over which they have control of course). It is indeed a sticky wicket for democratic societies.
From what I have seen of MSM reporting on firearms matters, much of it is written by people who don’t know the difference between full auto and semiautomatic, an empty shell casing from an intact round, a revolver from an “automatic”, and who believe that handgun possession by law abiding citizens is the problem.
And even with that assessment you’re being generous.
Carolyn McCarthy – barrel shroud
It certainly sounds like there is no proof of human intelligence in the capital city of state of New York, just like in Kalifornia. It gladdens my heart to see Remington and Colt may be moving to a state(s) that will appreciates the investment in their economy.
My thoughts:
Older guns will possibly be grandfathered in, creating a market for pre-stamp guns, just like the assault weapons ban did for ‘dangerous black rifles’.
A firing pin could easily be fabricated, probably easier for a pistol considering they are smaller than rifle pins, or smuggled in. Just because the US starts microstamping pins, doesn’t mean every other country on the planet does.
I have been saying for years, that if guns ever became fully outlawed drug smugglers will simply diversify their product line. Firing pins would be harder to detect, easier to disguise too. No obvious odor, mixed in with other legit scrap metal, small tools, car parts ect.
3D printing?
Multiple firing pins? I have my criminal pin, and my legit pin. Proof that a weapon used in a crime wasn’t used in a crime.
National pin registry???
With all due respect sir, yes the grandfathering in of older firearms would create a two or more tiered market for common replacement parts.
I still wonder how they would retrofit my flintlock rifle which is a beautiful and quite lethal weapon. With a cotton patched round ball there are no ballistic rifling marks, no discarded brass, and the hand cast projectiles, cast from lead of any number of sources and in varying metallic composition, no CSI magician could state with certainty what gun had fired it. Let alone who aimed it and squeezed the trigger.
The venerable Army .45, Colt 1911 has had a penchant for deforming and breaking firing pins and only an idiot would depend on one without a spare or more in his range kit.
This is the same kind of B S that ID Tags in gunpowder and alloy composition in projectiles, and fired round and cartridge data banks, have imposed in the past on lawful gun owners, without restricting unlawful posessors.
Oh, don’t forget your pin number!!
The super-majority Democratic legislature along with the numbnut Democratic governor rule Connecticut. Because of their tax & otherwise policies many companies are leaving CT. Some are even going to nearby Taxachusetts. You know things are very bad in CT when MA is perceived as business friendly.
You miss the point of this, it has nothing to do with whether it works or not. It all has to do with cost. It will cost more for you the consumer, so you will not be buying more of those pesky guns. Think of all those lives that will be saved with less guns out there! If it drives the gun manufacture out of business, well that was sort a the point. No gun manufacture! No guns! People we are on a mission to save the world, in spite of you…..silly person!
Jeannine
As a resident (sigh…) of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts (where for the average guy, wealth is not common) all I can say is…
Heh!
Sorry Matty, but you guys in MA have a reputation of being overtaxed & over regulated. Romney must have improved the situation when he was governor. Can’t imagine your current governor do anything with the taxes but raise them. BTW, a big chunk of Pfizer from Groton is moving over by you.
The manufacturers should move to Texas, by golly. They would be closer to their customers, and you can’t get much more gun friendly. I’ll personally welcome them.
With any rifled barrel there is an indelible ‘stamp’ placed on the bullet that is as identifiable and unique as any fingerprint. There is no need for this kind of traceability. Not so for shotguns – and rifles that can use a sabot round. This is just one more attempt by the do-gooder nanny state idiots to try to run the gun makers out of business.
Well, no, there’s not. That’s a common misconception.
Yes, ballistic evidence is available, but it’s far from foolproof. There is a lot of interpretation required, thus a lot of room to have a battle of expert witnesses to introduce “reasonable doubt”.
So, it’s arguable that microstamping is an attempt to solve a real problem. Not that I think for a moment that this is the real motivation, but they DO have plausible cover for this effort, in the form of a real-world problem they are claiming to solve.
An occasional theme in murder mysteries is to recover a fired bullet with clear rifling marks from a range, then assassinate someone by firing that bullet from a smoothbore musket or horse pistol. I’m not sure how well that would actually work, but it’s fun to think about.
Well, I suspect it’s only fun to think about if you don’t know how well it would work.
If you know how well it would work, you have yet another reason to scorn lazy authors who don’t research their topics.
Generally speaking, it won’t. First of all because most blackpowder single-shot weapons were of much larger caliber than modern smokelees-powder types.
The largest legal caliber for a modern, non-military, rifled pistol in the United States is 0.5 inches, aka “fifty caliber”. Most “.50″ pistols, like the .500 Smith & Wesson, are actually closer to .49 or even .48; this is why Ruger calls their version of the .500 S&W pistol and cartridge the “.480 Ruger”.
A typical blackpowder heavy pistol, like a cavalryman’s saddle-holster piece, was usually around .60 to .70 caliber. In fact, most such weapons were the same caliber as the issuing army’s musket, using the same lock assembly, a shorter barrel, and the same (round ball) bullet with half the powder charge used in the musket. So, for starters, the bullet is too small.
You could use a “sabot”; that’s a surrounding sleeve, usually plastic these days, that is the correct bore diameter, that fills the space (windage) between the too-small slug and the bore surface. It keeps the pressure of the burning powder behind the bullet to launch it correctly; once in the open air, it falls apart, leaving the bullet to fly on by itself.
Remington (interestingly enough) used to make what were called “Accelerator” cartridges, that (to cite one example) had the 55-grain bullet of the .223 round in a .30 caliber plastic sabot, loaded in a .308 Winchester case. The idea being that somebody could use their deer rifle in the off season for varmint hunting. It never caught on because accuracy wasn’t as good as the “regular” rounds, and accuracy is what’s needed for varmint shooting. (Groundhogs and ground squirrels are a lot smaller than deer.)
But even that won’t work. You see, without rifling to cause spin, you can’t really fire an elongated bullet and expect to hit anything. The slug will start tumbling less than two feet from the muzzle, and if you’re lucky and it hits at all, it will probably be going sideways. Also, your sabot’s pieces will be scattered around the area between you and the target.
Use, say, a modern .45 slug in a smoothbore .45 caliber weapon, like a dueling pistol? If the bullet touches the bore, the bore will mark the bullet. In any contest between lead or jacket alloy and barrel steel, bet on the steel to win.
Paper-wrapped bullet, like Tom Selleck’s Sharps rifle in Quigley Down Under? Again, bits of the paper will be scattered around. And a good crime-scene tech will find them.
(First Rule of Processing A Crime Scene; Don’t touch anything you don’t absolutely have to. Second Rule; Look it over and ask yourself, “OK, what’s here that I wouldn’t normally expect to be here?”)
Rest assured that if I, as a ballistics technician, find sabot pieces, bits of paper from a “wrap”, or anything similar at a crime scene, and the post mortem tells me that the fatal slug hit the victim going sideways, I’ll be examining the slug and “bits” very closely to determine what sort of antique, shotgun, or etc. the supposed “master criminal” used. And yes, I do have tests at my disposal to determine that a certain weapon fired that projectile, no matter how it was “cocooned”, and that a certain person fired that weapon.
Said person is going to have a lot of explaining to do. In court.
(No, I’m not betraying any “trade secrets” here. You can watch an episode of most “CSI”- type TV shows and get the same information. This is more along the lines of “fair warning”. Ballistics techs, like myself, are damned hard to fool; over the years, we’ve seen about every trick in the book, and a lot that aren’t. And we have more than a few of our own. So basically, the message is, Don’t Do The Crime- You Will Do The Time.)
The fact that this shows up movie or TV mysteries wouldn’t surprise me. Typical Hollywood denizens like screenwriters, actors, etc. are probably the only category of supposed adults who know less about firearms than the average politician- or reporter. (Rare writer-directors John Milius and Clint Eastwood, and actors like the late Charlton Heston, being more-or-less the exceptions who prove the rule.)
cheers
eon
I believe it could be done, but perhaps not such a hot idea. The old muzzle loaders used a greased ‘patch’ of leather or cloth that was wrapped around the bullet. Because you would not get a lot of velocity, the bulled would be have to be heavy. The old army 45 cal. would be a workable choice. To make up for bullet tumble you would have to be fairly close to the target. Too close and the odd powder burns might be tell tale.
Maybe in some TV or movie drama the cops are thorough, but unless you are shooting a big shot, I doubt they would even find a patch if it was, say, left in some grass after the shooting. Plus even if they found the patch, it would take a leap of imagination to figure out what it meant. That kind of insightful thinking is not common.
Plus with a little luck and the proper choice you could probably come up with a patch that would just burn up. Say, buy some authentic black powder and soak the patch in it with a water solvent. That would leach out the oxidizer and upon drying make the patch quite flammable. Of course too much and it would become an explosive itself.
Easier and better would be to just use a shot gun. The bullets pull apart without too much trouble and commonly the shot is already encased in a plastic sleeve. If they found the sleeve it would be a dead give away, so I suppose it would have to be retrieved. Also, again, if you just fabricated a custom sleeve it would require insight to know what it meant, and then only if it gets picked up.
If most criminals were smart and industrious, most law enforcement would be dead in the water. How many people are going to be interrogated by police today who will throw away their rights because the police make them uncomfortable and say a few manipulative things? How many will incriminate themselves and unwittingly aid the investigation against themselves?
Yep; clean the bore with a stainless steel brush, and leave solvent in it overnight. Changes rifling enough for “reasonable doubt.”
Don’t bet your life- or twenty-five to thirty- on it.
(Been there, seen that. Got the conviction anyway.)
cheers
eon
many states require a fired casing to accompany any new handgun sold, and many also require a used handgun to be submitted to local LEO to fire one casing from that gun before the new owner can receive it. Why? Some cockamamie theory that it will give LE a tool to solve gun crimes, the spend casing “reading” being filed into some database, then a crime scene casing being “read” and entered, thus determining which gun fired the crime scene casing…. the programme is expensive, and in all the states together where this system is in place, has not led to the solving of ONE CRIME. There are so many ways a criminal can thwart the microstamping game its not even funny…. black market guns are almost all stolen, or purchased private party, no traceablility back to the “registered” purchaser. So who cares if the pin has a micronumber on it? It don’t come back to me!! Go ahead and use it to off someone, they’ll be looking for someone else, meanwhile I’m long gone like a turkey through the corn….. one more case of hoplophobic dweebs trying to gerner more votes.. “lookit whut AH dun ta fix DIS problim”.
Guns coming in from out of state, used guns, stolen guns, “scrubbed” of the microstamp, or replaced pins, or why bother, the poor chump whose name is associated with that pin will take the rap.
I would also think that a decent lawyer with a good case could get the whole plan tossed as a Second Ammendment infringement….. stupid politicians. If New York puts this in place, watch to see how many other monkey see monkey doo doo states will take that one up, as well.. and likely some attempts at the federal level as well. They just don’t “get it”, do they?
If I were to use a firearm in a crime (something I never envision myself doing), one of the first things I would do is pour a little sand, pumice or emery down the barrel and chamber and fire it a few times. A string tied to the trigger would let me be safe in case it blows up while doing this. Spent shell casings won’t be matched and bullet rifling won’t be matched. That’s assuming I didn’t melt the firearm into a blob with easy to make thermite.
ALL gun manufacturers in leftist states should leave out of principal. Bring your people and your company and come to Texas.
Relocating a factory is very expensive. Either you move existing machine tools or buy new ones (and they’re very expensive). Either you move as many of your existing employees as you can or you have to hire and train new ones. You face disruption of production resulting in lost sales. All in all, such a relocation can easily take years to pay for itself. Many states offer big incentives to help offset some of those relocation costs but that still may not be enough to make the move cost effective for anything other than very sound business reasons.
Yes but there are a couple of other considerations. Property taxes and sales taxes are almost certain to be lower. There is also the matter of income taxes. There aren’t any in Texas. That means that everybody moving from New York gets an 8% raise. The most important difference, though, is a state government that views your company as a valuable asset to be encouraged and assisted if possible and not just as a cow to be milked.
And were this not the case, can you imagine how quickly states like CT, NY, CA, etc would loose their manufacturing base? The point is that companies faced with such hostile local governments will stop or severely curtail hiring and investing locally and begin to move business activities elsewhere. They may not move machine tools but over time their local footprint decreases. At some point when it is time to re-tool, they will do it overseas or in Texas.
I think this is a great idea that we should implement right away. In fact, maybe the DoJ could lead by example and use microstamping on all the guns it intentionally sells to violent criminal gangs.
Yes! An excellent idea. Let us track all firearms, using the proven methodology of Fast & Furious.
This reminds me of an effort to obtain a ballistics sample of each and every firearm in Maryland. It failed, mostly due to the technical headaches associated with collecting and managing such a database. It also failed because over time the marks from each gun can change.
This is just one more effort to infringe upon the rights of people to defend themselves.
Add to the other ways to get around micro stamping, all one has to do is wipe your bullets so that there is no finger prints. Then throw down a lot of shell casing that you pick up from the range. It muddies the crime scene.
No, that wouldn’t work. There would still be fingerprints on the casings. And really, once the bullet is fired, even if it is recovered, it would be next to impossible to get any fingerprints from it.
OR you could just be thorough and clean the fingerprints off of your cartridges, which would include the bullet and casing.
But cleaning just the bullets would be a waste of time.
most criminals are pretty careless… few ever take the time and thought required to load their magazines whilst wearing cotton gloves, thus they leave their prints on every casing ejected. Active or known perps already have their prints in the cops’ databases, makes identifying the perp easy in some cases. BUT.. having the perp’s prints on three dozen pieces of fired brass, various calibers, tossed round the scene might be good for raising “reasonable doubt” arguments at trial. But again, few perps think that far ahead. They’re always certain they’ll get clean off with it.
It sounds like a ready-made market for the home CNC crowd: they already have lathes and mills for this sort of work, and a bit of pocket money on the side never hurts. Really, for under $5k you can buy a decent 14″ lathe, put on the digital readouts, feed that to a low end computer using open source CNC software and you are ready to go. A bit of training and futzing around would be a big help, of course, but the idea that we will all depend on major manufacturing systems for some items is about to go the way of the buggywhip. And done as a hobby, not a business, there is no practical way to stop it, either… with a bit of know-how you can even go the Gingery route from the bottom up. That would teach you all you need to know as you make the equipment and tools to make the final parts…
As a native New Yorker, now thankfully living in the great state of Texas, I can’t understand why Colt, Remington, and Ruger, have stayed in New York and Connecticut as long as they have.
All that effort, for a technology that can be defeated with in ten seconds using a sheet of sandpaper.
This proposal will only hurt the economy and honest, law-abiding people. The bad guys will simply remove the serial numbers from the firing pin at the same time as they do from the frame of the gun. Or if they are really industrious and “green,” they will pick up the litter of their expended cases after they pop someone or “seed” the crime scene with pick up empties from a local range. Or even easier, they will use a firearm that does not leave expended cartridges at the scene of a crime – like a revolver.
This will be no different than the majority of the 20,000 gun laws on the books – painful to only those who obey the law.
As usual, firearm laws are dreamed up and written by idiots who are completely ignorant about guns.
As usual, firearm laws are dreamed up and written by idiots who are completely ignorant about guns.
Well, yes. But it’s also the mindset of legislators, who think every problem can be solved with legislation. Legally forbid bad things! Legally require good things! Perfect society, here we come!
And gun use by criminals is a classic case of a problem that *cannot* be solved with legislation, simply because criminals don’t obey the legislation. It’s as though the politicians were concerned about drivers who routinely ignore speed limits, and respond by reducing the speed limits, over and over, hoping that the scofflaws will eventually get with the program. (They won’t. In the meantime, law-abiding drivers get increasingly inconvenienced, and decreasingly motivated to vote for the idiots who put such laws into place.)
even more basic and simple.. what criminal would ever use a firearm in a crime that is registered to himself? Many are stupid, but VERY few are that stupid. So what if its got microstamping? No record exists would tie it back to the perp. If it was used in a crime, simply off it to some other sap. Maybe HE’l get caught with it and blamed for the earlier crime he did not commit. Criminals, by definition, do NOT obey the laws.
This would be a good case for an investigative reporter to follow the money. That microstamping process is patented, so the manufacturing firms will have to pay license fees or buy specialized equipment from the patent holder. Who holds the critical patent? What bribes (campaign contributions) did that person or company pay to state legislators to get these laws passed?
I’m not sure it’s a horrible idea, it’s a great idea even if it doesn’t actually happen to work in the real world.
The expense probably isn’t all that great, if it worked, which it doesn’t.
Oh and thanks for the great ideas about scattering fake cartridges, I think that would make some great CSI or Bones episodes, much less if I ever want to try it myself.
All these politicians with their “mathematical ability” cause a whole lot more damage than law abiding firearm owners!
Also, even if police could read the micro-stamp, how would that tell them who the gun’s owner was? It’s not as though New York state criminals get their guns from New York state gun dealers. At best, it might sometimes tell them from which New York State resident the gun was stolen (in those cases where that was the way they obtained the gun).
Another area of discontent: the non-stop attacks on “assault weapons”. It comes up year after year here in Illinois; while Springfield is the titular capitol, Chicago calls the shots by and large. Within 50 miles of where I sit are Armalite, Springfield Armory, Lewis machine Tool, Rock River Arms and others; Les Baer formerly had his base here, but left several years ago for this very reaso: he didn’t want to wake up and read the paper to find out he was running a felonious operation. he moved 12 miles to Iowa, and I wouldn’t blame the rest if they hauled out, too. At the same time the same states that are crying about guns, their budgets are in a massive hole. It stems from the same mindset, I think: everybody should get along, and the government will tell them how to do it. Didn’t work in 1776, doesn’t work now. And yes, swapping or polishing off toolmarks placed by multi-million dollar machines is simple, as is salting a crime scene with range pick-up brass— stop by any rural police range, use their brass!
Somebody said follow the money. Okay. First would be the manufacturer of the engraving equipment, that’s a given. Next would be those firearms manufacturers that go along with this scheme. They would make out in sales as I’m sure any firearm not so marked would be illegal to sell in whatever states this becomes law. Next would probably be gunsmiths. It would have to be illegal to sell unmarked firing pins and only licensed gunsmiths would be able to install them, keeping records of the numbers on the replacement pin and the firearm it is installed in. No more keeping a spare firing pin in your gearbox at the range. Carried to the extreme, no extra parts of any kind with the possible exception of a spare magazine. Going back to gunsmiths, any preban firearm they work on would probably be required to have a new marked firing pin installed if it ever saw the inside of a gun repair shop or no repair. Even a revolver but that would require a new hammer.
I can even see a special law enforcement branch assigned to shooting ranges armed with a case reader to make sure all the firearms being used complied with the law. Any unreadable stamp would incur a small fine for first offense then on up if caught with it not repaired/replaced a next time. Ahh, the joys of a truly socialistic nanny state.
And to whom do these companies make campaign contributions?
An investigative reporter might have some fun with that one…
Accept that for many firearms access to the firing pin is neccessary for proper cleaing. When cleaning the AR-15 family of rifles to do it right you have to disassemble the entire bolt carrier and remove the firing pin. The only way to enforce something like that would be to require replacing not just firing pins but whole bolts and bolt carrier groups for many firearms out there.
Not that anyone considering this legislation knows that. Or cares.
You know what would be a truly patriotic act? For some smart computer hackers to get into the Federal Firearms Registration database, AND DELETE IT. That would be right up there with Paul Revere in my book.
By definition, the only people in that database are the law-abiding. Criminals don’t register their guns.
Said database belonging to BATFE used to be in West Virginia, mainly at the behest of “King Coal” himself, Senator Robert Byrd (D-WV), who wanted it there for Federal jobs.
We used to joke that in event of a “Red Dawn” the first Soviet paratroops would land in WV to grab that database. So, WV ANG should JDAM the building five minutes before they hit the DZ.
And that putting something so critical to absolute control of the populace, by a would-be autocratic government, out in the middle of a whole state of highly-independent “hillbillies”, wasn’t exactly a bright idea. That is, if said government decided to start flexing its muscles a bit too much.
After all, everybody knew where it was.
(innocent look)
cheers
eon
How backlogged is the factory spent casing concept? It was months backlogged awhile ago… and just as likely to be helpful as microstamping… in other words, zero utility.
There are two options for protecting 2nd amendment rights:
Industry Control or Federal Government control:
Federal Government uses the BATFE, which the NSSF and NRA supported Ballistic imaging, by stating that if it worked they would support it. 2D CoBIS failed, however the BATFE has been testing 3D laser scanning technique, which will work – CoBIS Rev2.0. The BATFE has a network of 250+ ballistic imaging tools across the country and they can use that backbone network to upgrade to 3D imaging. It is being tested in MD.
Or
The indsutry can adopt microstamping and take over the process of trace evidence by creating a clearing house for codes centralized at the NSSF headquarters. They will be able to maintain the codes and issue them to industry, without government intervention. By becoming the custodian of this information they will negate the BATFE to legacy firearms, while the Industry becomes the tip of the sword when defending the rights of gun owners, by being able to develop relationships with the forensic community and local law enforcment. It is possible to isolat ehte BATFE by becoming the center of knowhow, effectively negating the BATFE.
As it stands, moving forward, either the indsutry will lead or they will be dragged around by the Federal Government.
If you want to protect 2nd amendment rights, you have to take control of the process and the data it generates. Imagine the NSSF being able to show the real data. Where was the NSSF and NRA during the 30′s when they supported the FFL system, where was the NSSF when they supported the BATFE request for electronic forms for FFL’s and why the heck are they supporting 3D ballistic imaging?
We are in for a reality check soon. It is time to take control of our destiny.
Microstamping provides that opportunity.
Truly dumb idea. If the data is required to be generated and kept, the government, the invading Russkies, and the local gendarmes (not all of whom are 2d Amend. advocates) will have acess to it. Registration by other means is still registration.
Here’s another way:
http://replicatorworld.com/issue/autumn-2012/article/the-dark-side-of-3d-printing
Ignore the hysterical hoplophobia of the author and read the whole article.
“Hoplophobia”-irrationally afraid of weapons. I learned a new word. I would be more of a hoplophile, myself.
I think we should require all criminals to lick their bullets for DNA evidence and provide confession letters with a photo at the crime scene.
Our police are so busy writing up illegal parking tickets that we really need to give them a break on these pesky murder cases.
What kind of reloading uses the same primer? Spoofing is a non-issue, unless someone gives away their firing pin.
To change the subject a little, but on the same theme, note that they require polarized 110 Volt plugin plugs. That is why one of the two power pins is bigger than the other. (the fat pin is a second ground) In real life it is never going to happen that houses are wired reliably enough to take advantage of one of the pins being power and the other ground.
And have you seen what they have done with portable gas can spouts. The things are damn near unusable.
Isn’t that one of the things they inspect for when they sign off on a building permit?
Microstamping is a waste of time and money. The “bad guys” will just go back to using revolvers – no spent cartridges ejected !!!! The people who are promoting the idea of microstamping simply know nothing about firearms. Before a legislator proposes a new law, they should at least know what they are talking about. Further, in most cases, based upon my 25 year law enforcement career; firing pins most often already leave a distinctive mark on the cartridge primer. Besides, “bad guys” are not going to use a firearm which is “registered” to them; they will use a “clean” firearm – either purchased on the “black market” or stolen. The whole idea of “microstamping” is just another bad idea proposed by incompetent/mis-informed “public servants”.
what this is going to lead to is the laws about how you store your guns, when you report them as stolen,as well proving when and if you sell a gun. All this will lead to new regulations and laws. This does not cover the that will come to to prevent guns and ammo from being sold in the state if it does not comply with microstamping laws.
I live in Wild and Wonderful West “By God” Virginia. We’ve seen an influx of gun lovers from the northern states moving in because of the insanity going on in their home states regarding gun possession, permitting, concealed carry, etc. There’s a consistent theme from most I’ve talked to and that is “if you like guns, we don’t like you and don’t want you here”. Many, who’ve never been anywhere south of NJ, NY, CT, (except maybe FL!) etc are stunned when they see the beauty of the state and giddy with joy when they find out buying, registering and owning a gun here is a relatively simple and hassle-free process! I took a ex-NYC Veterinarian out to the family farm, set up some targets and spent the day zeroing his weapons. He told me, “This is the best!” and I told him, “We can always use another vet around here.”
The stupidity of this line of thought is in the putting the responsibility and cause on the object instead of the offender. Every hurdle is to make the law abiding person jump through hoops and nothing for the criminal. The aptitude is that criminals will follow instruction or care about the law. Inept thinking that criminals will stop anything because there is law as an impediment is just laughable. The left thinks that the law is a safety device and line that a criminal will not cross. The criminal’s job description is to disregard every law. The government can make 100 new laws today and the criminal will not care or stop because that is their job to disregard all laws.
A law is only effective if people obey it, ergo, the criminal that does not obey the law does not care or regard any law as an impediment to their goal of crime. So the economic waste of micro-stamping is just another cost and government tyranny over the law abiding public. Talk about stuck on stupid.
I am a Democrat and support some reasonable gun control that already exists, but I agree entirely that micro-stamping is a joke. It sounds like someone got a patent, and instead of letting the marketplace decide if the patent is valuable, is using the legislative process to make his patented process mandatory. If there was any value to micro-stamping, the industry would have already adopted it.
This proves that demorats have no brains. Not one cell worth saving.
I’ve got a box of firing pins for sale, right here.. in my closet, 10 cents each.
And another box of emery paper to polish your firing pins, barrels, and other parts.
And then there’s the 300+ MILLION guns already out there..
But the most stupid moronic idiot crap is ‘registered guns used in a crime..’ I’m still laughing from that one.. Demorats, idiots to the Nth degree.
This bill keeps being brought up but the people pushing it don’t have any desire to use it as a crime fighting tool. It’s sole purpose is to put all LEGAL gun dealers in the state out of business without affecting the New York criminals who import guns for the countries biggest black market.
The bill doesn’t require a manufacturer to do anything. It outlaws the sale of a new gun, in New York, that is not equipped to micro-stamp fired cartridge cases. No manufacturer is going to spend millions to retool their entire production line with the resulting disruptions in order to sell to a limited market like New York. If there are no new guns available to sell legally how long will a dealer be able to stay in business?
A lighter mainspring reduces the amount of pressure needed to make the trigger break. Lighter trigger = more accurate shot placement. [ firing pin journal dot com ]
I believe that “Anonymous” got it right. It’s not about the effectivenes of microstamping. It’s opportunities to pass all sorts of regulations claiming to thwart criminals getting around microstamping. The real purpose of the new regulations will be to make firearms expensive and to make their purchase a bureaucratic nightmare. For instance, a new law might require that 1911 style pistols have to be made with the firing pin non-removable. That would raise the cost of the firearm and make it more expensive to repair, requiring the whole slide to be replaced instead of just the firing pin. The fact that such a law would be easy to get around would only justify a new law requiting more changes while increasing manufacturing cost, bureaucracy and repir cost. Remember that liberalism is about incrementalism. They get a small change that people will go along with, then they start adding more small changes, resulting in BIG changes.