Ground Zero Mosque Reality Check
Are modern policies of appeasement encouraging Islamic extremists? Will we pay the price for Obama's cowardice? Find out as Bill Whittle gets fired up on this edition of Afterburner. (Special to PJM readers: Submit your questions to Bill here for a follow-up interview on PJTV!)
August 17, 2010 - 1:32 pm
Did you read Caroline Glick’s latest piece? http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/08/17/standing_on_a_landmine_106784.html
She writes: “In the case of the Ground Zero mosque he prefers the rights of Muslims over the values of the overwhelming majority of Americans. In the case of the Palestinians, he prefers their anti-Semitic nationalism over the civil rights of Jews.”
Do you agree, Mr. Whittle?
Why do conservatives and the GOP hate America and our Constitution so much? Today’s NYT has an eye-opening article detailing how Republicans nationwide are seeking to make the Burlington Coat Factory Mosque a top 2010 issue.
The article contained a pair of quotes from GOP candidates that I think illustrate the Republican Party’s core dysfunction on the mosque issue. First:
“Ground zero is hallowed ground to Americans,” Elliott Maynard, a Republican trying to unseat Representative Nick J. Rahall II, a Democrat, in West Virginia’s Third District, said in a typical statement. “Do you think the Muslims would allow a Jewish temple or Christian church to be built in Mecca?”
The flaw in Maynard’s reasoning is as obvious as it is astonishing: effectively, his argument is that New York City in the United States of America should be more like Mecca in Saudi Arabia. Maynard looks towards Saudi Arabia and sees a nation in which there are zero churches and synagogues and he gets jealous. He wonders why it is that America cannot become a Christian nation in the way the Saudi Arabia is an Islamic nation. He explicitly rejects one of America’s greatest achievements: the separation of church and state. He seeks to set us back to the pre-revolutionary era. He doesn’t see America as a shining beacon on a hill; he sees America as a flawed nation because it is not sufficiently similar in form to theocracies in the Middle East.
Amazingly, Maynard’s views seem to be fairly widely held on the right and as PJM posters demonstrate. They just don’t seem to value the religious freedom which makes America great. If conservatives and the GOP like government sleeping in bed with religion then they should go to Iran. There I’m told religion and government is one big happy family, and if you don’t agree they’ll stone you to death. Yes we need to be more like them . . .
The analogy with Saudi Arabia is indeed flawed.
However religious freedom is nor absolute.
Would you favor a white supremacist church in Harlem?
Would you allow a sharia court to behead a blasphemer or stone to death an adulteress?
Those that want this mosque propose sharia law become replace the law of the land.
The Constitution is not a suicide pact!
Everything you say is wrong. Those behind the mosque are the face of moderate Islam. We should be welcoming them. It is a plus to see their numbers grow and have greater visibility. But if you really want to know the history behind what is going on I would refer you to a recent post. He essentially dismantles everything all you teabaggers are saying. But historical facts only mean as much as they can support what the false fires of your overheated mind already want to believe.
http://gotmedieval.blogspot.com/2010/08/professor-newts-distorted-history.html
” Everything you say is wrong. ”
Rather than offer a lucid defense you throw stones. I am not at all surprised.
“Everything you say is wrong. Those behind the mosque are the face of moderate Islam.”
Actually, those behind the mosque support imposition of sharia law.
And while the alleged reason for a mosque there is religious dialogue, the imam says he doesn’t like religious dialogue. He’s also said that the US bears responsibility for 9/11.
“Moderate Islam”? Hardly.
Would strongly suggest you read the post at SULTAN KNISH, ”Who Is Really Politicizing Ground Zero.” The author, Daniel Greenfield, asks some interesting questions, such as just who exactly is this mosque being built to serve, seeing as there are very few Muslim residents of the area? The very idea of building a mosque at this site is politicizing Ground Zero.
http:sultanknish.blogspot.com/
http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/
Everything you say is wrong if you begin with the premise that those who want to build this mosque represent “moderate Islam,” if indeed there is such a thing. This is a Victory Mosque because parts of Mohammed Atta’s plane fell on that building, if for no other reason. The head of Hamas said this well and what he said here is representative of Muslim thinking.
Further, contrast the hurried approval of this mosque with the run around the liberals in City government are giving to the Greek Orthodox diocese about the rebuilding of St. Nicholas Church which was destroyed on 9/11 when the Towers fell on it. And, while you’re at it ask why the City, State and Port Authority governments haven’t rebuilt the World Trade Center nine years after 9/11, showing how ineffective governments run by liberals are.
A reference to an article by “Got Medieval” critical of “Newt.” Well, that does it. All these years reading articles by Robert Spencer in Jihad Watch, Pamela Geller in Atlas Shrugs, Bat Ye’or, Daniel Pipes, David Horowitz, Wafa Sultan, Brigitte Gabriel, Geert Wilders, Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Mark Steyn, Hugh Fitzgerald, etc. and I had the audacity to think I knew a little about the Islamic threat but one article by “Got Medieval” and it all goes up in smoke. Please accept my humble apologies; I am indeed humbled…….Allahu Akbar.
You are a fool of the first order.
There is no such thing as “moderate” Islam.
You have fallen for one of the largest and most vicious lies of Islam.
Just keep spreading BS Islamic propaganda, and just maybe the jihadists really will kill you last.
-Dave
You obviously did not watch the clip before weighing in. We know you are proud of your strong command of the first amendment, but nobody is saying they don’t have the right to build it there. We are just wondering why they would choose that site and would they kindly build it elsewhere. Should they not be “sensitive” to us as well? Or is it, like Bill said, a one-way street for you? Something Bill didn’t touch on that I would like to point out: It’s more than just ignorance and cowardice with you people. It’s a strange combination of both with an infuriating level of unwarranted arrogance mixed in. Deep down you are the one who looks down on Muslims (and blacks and hispanics and every other minority) – why else would you not hold them to the same standard as American Christians, Jews, Hindus, and everyone else? I’ll tell you why. It’s because you are scared of them and don’t want to meet their stare. Just keep your head down and maybe they will kill you last. One more concession here, another pathetic rationalization there, and they will leave you alone, right? The spit in your eye is just a sign of graciousness from someone who shares a mutual respect and tolerance for you, right? Absolutely pathetic. Borderline Stockholm Syndrome.
Check out the link. But don’t let history get in the way of your political posturing.
http://gotmedieval.blogspot.com/2010/08/professor-newts-distorted-history.html
Many Muslims agree with the other 70% of us that construction of the mosque is a stick in the eye. I’ll take their word for it before I take yours. It’s been 9 years with no dialogue, no marches, barely a peep from moderate Muslims denouncing the mass muder that was 9/11. So they all of a sudden want to “build bridges” and dialogue by erecting a $100 million mosque at what Obama himself admitted is hallowed ground? Again, Stockholm Syndrome. Ask your shrink about it.
Praetorian.
If any secular political movement held the ideas advoctated by MAINSTREAM Islam, would you support & defend it?
In your rather superficial & uninformed view, Islam is only a RELIGION, the underlying assumption being it is just like other religions.
But, in reality, where many of us live, Islam is NOT a religion, it is a theocratic totalitarian POLITICAL ideology.
You should be able to defend your views with FACTS so I would like you to explaion to all of us ignorant right-wingers & bigots the Islamic position on the following:
Separation of religion & state, the position of non-believers under Islam, the status of women under Islamic law, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, Islam’s position on homosexuality, & the Islamic doctrine of Jihad.
Please, I await the enlightenment of your expert knowledge.
Do you have some actual facts to back up what you say? And I’m not talking about what you saw on Glenn Beck. The link I provided is chock full of historical facts. Facts that undermine your position, no doubt. But this is the problem with the vast masses of sheople. If it didn’t happen in the last two news cycles, it didn’t happen at all. Sad, really.
Jeez, how utterly obtuse can you be. This has NOTHING to do with freedom of religion or constitutional rights. Let me repeat myself because you are as dull as a loaf of bread with matching reading comprehension – this has NOTHING to do with freedom of religion or constitutional rights.
The republican and conservative position is not and has never been that the proponents do not have the right to build the mosque wherever they can buy the land. The position is, and always has been, that they should be sensitive to the wishes of the majority of Manhattanites and not build it there.
That is what it is all about. That is what anyone with two brain cells understands.
No matter how ‘perfectly clear’ Obama is when he puts up the religious freedom and constitutional rights strawmen, and no matter how snugly you cozy up to it, it is a lie. No matter how much projection and spin the democrats put on this trying to tie those strawmen to the opponents of the siting of the mosque, it is not going to fly. Obama is lying.More and more people everyday are now expecting him to lie. He is peddling BS. And like the good little sycophant you are, you bent over, grabbed a handful, took a big bite, and are spewing the same BS.
For once, just one time, just for the satisfaction of getting some minimal return on all those college loans, try thinking for yourself, fanboy. Good lord, if you were my kid, I’d move and not give you the forwarding address.
BTW, fanboy. You have proven over and over again on this site, making one asinine comment after another on the subject, that you do not have any understanding of the constitution, nor what it takes to love the country. You have shown in those comments that you expect the government to coddle and cradle you on money taken by fiat from people who would rather stand on their own two feet and despise those how won’t – you. You haven’t a clue, one single clue, on what it means to be an adult American,
Blah, blah, blah. Go take your Medicare sponsored blood pressure medicine Mr. I stand on my own two feet.. All of you are beginning to sound like those dolls where you pull the string and they talk. Pull the string: “I can spend my own money better than the government can spend my money.” Pull the string: “I love my country. See I carry a flag.” Pull the string: “government isn’t the answer, it’s the problem.” Pull the string” “unions are bad. Insurance companies are good. Pull the string: I love the Constitution when it supports what I already want to believe.” Blah, blah, blah . . .
You do anything but stand on your own two legs or think for yourself. You do nothing but spout the latest talking points from the ‘reality based’ sites every time you comment. You filter everything you read through the spin that smarter people than you know the marching moron cadre will lap up and endlessly regurgitate. They make no sense to anyone separated from the government teat and making their way on their own. That pap is done for the next few years at least, fanboy.
You and your sneaker brigade need to knock on as many doors as you can this fall and in 2 years. You need to use exactly the same arguments you use here with exactly the same logic and exactly the same take on the real world and defend the administration with exactly the same hubris. You’re going to get a a lot of people looking at you like you’re an clueless sophomoric jack@$$ and that can only help.
It’s getting ugly! Pull the string and Praetorian stops putting foot in mouth.
Great post “Just Passing Thru” Fanboy’s dead on accurate to describe Preatorian. No clue on what this country is about – just posts nonsense to try and agitate and distract the normal thinking productive Americans represented well on this board. Just like o blah blah – barry – whatever his name is – clueless man child.
Why do lefties like straw men so much?
In fact, Obama, after a couple of preliminary drafts, Obama arrived at the nearly identical position of Krauthammer and National Review: “Yes, you have a legal right to build it. Build it and be damned.”
‘Why do lefties like straw men so much?’
No emphasis on logic and no respect for truth in their educational experience. Everything is relative to what they want(or are told) to believe. This necessarily requires a operative disdain for facts and that data become malleable. Then when you get your face rubbed in real facts and honest, verifiable data – the truth – and a strawman argument that fits your preconceptions becomes the only fallback position available. Easier than facing the fact that one has been an idiot anyway.
Maya Angelou, an icon on the left, distilled the entire progressive philosophy into one sentence. She succinctly verbalized why logical fallacies are, and MUST be, the basis for that philosophy:
“There’s a world of difference between truth and facts. Facts can obscure the truth.”
What responsible person with any respect for the truth and both able and apt to apply critical thinking would not see that quote as asinine?
The Constitution does not give anyone a right to build whatever they want wherever they want. Nor does it give the federal government any authority in such issues.
There was a Greek Orthodox Church at ground zero on 9/11. It hasn’t received approval to rebuild.
Where is the indignation about that ???
Where is the indignation that a Church with an established presence at ground zero is not approved with no valid explanation, but a mosque with no prior presence is ???
Where is BHO’s intervention re the Greek Church’s rights ???
Cowboy, can you give some background on this. Sounds like something to throw some light on the argument
You have a creative and original understanding of the freedom of religion clause, which reads, for your review: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…
How then do you consider that objections to the building of a mosque.church, synagogue,or any other center for religious exercise is an assault on that clause? The building of the mosque is undoubtedly permissible. It is the venue that causes dismay. And might reasonably be considered, by persons sensitive to messages, to be INTENDED as a triumphalist throwing down the gauntlet by those designing and engineering the plans for its construction. In THAT place.
Was “Professor” Barack H. Obama your tutor on the Constitution of the USA, which he deemed “defective”. A document of LAW. He is a lawyer, went so far as swear oath to Uphold and Defend THAT document. What are we to make then of HIS understanding and principled defense of THAT LAW, in all its clauses and restrictions?
Whittle’s great! But he fails to get to the heart of the matter, which is this: Obama and Bloomberg know very well that Islamist motivations, forces, and funds are behind the building of the Ground Zero Mosque. Indeed, it’s a matter of US governmental policy. Cleansing all US government documents of terms like Islamist is part of this policy, so that even the vocabulary in my first sentence is a no-no. This alone makes the Ground Zero Mosque impregnable and inviolate.
Both the State Department and Secretary Hillary Clinton are themselves also fully aware of the Islamist intentions behind building the Ground Zero Mosque, yet they are financing its backer Rauf’s fundraising efforts in the Middle East. Construction of this mosque at Ground Zero is no different in its hostile intent than the 9/11 attack was itself. Rauf, reflecting widespread opinion in the Middle East, has accused the American government under the presidency of George Bush of having been behind it. There’s no truth in that. But he would be right to say it about the Obama administration’s backing of the Ground Zero Mosque assault now.
There is much too much resignation being expressed, speciously. in terms of Constitutional rights and freedoms, surrendering to the “inevitability” of the Ground Zero Mosque’s construction. We as Americans must remember what has rightfully been said many times (and again by Menachem above), that our Constitution is not a suicide pact. Clear and present dangers to our national security do not enjoy Constitutional protections. There is evidence that backing for this project has terrorist ties, and yet further investigation is openly opposed by Bloomberg and being stonewalled by the Obama administration. Common sense tells us that such willful obstruction at the highest levels of government is good reason enough for all construction plans to be put on hold, right now.
Where to begin with what I’m sure you believe is a brilliant piece demonstrating the intellectual elite thought process that is at this moment leading this nation toward a ruinous end.
You first express your disbelief that anyone could consider Ground Zero hallowed ground. If you’ve suffered the loss of any you’ve professed to love, son, daughter, mother, father, sister, brother, husband, wife, you get the gist, do you not consider the site where their remains are buried hallowed ground?
Then you make the ridiculous assumption that “Maynard looks towards Saudi Arabia and sees a nation in which there are zero churches and synagogues and he gets jealous.” Jealous??? And you offer as evidence of this emotion? I would suggest to you that Maynard is far more likely feeling outrage. That is admittedly as much a guess on my part as jealousy is on yours but I would site as evidence the mood of a majority of Americans, those whose opinions you probably dismiss on equally stupid and erroneous opinions about their emotional state of mind.
You continue your vacuous assessment of Mr. Maynard’s thought processes stating that “He wonders why it is that America cannot become a Christian nation in the way the (sic) Saudi Arabia is an Islamic nation.” Again, in typical liberal, intellectual, elite fashion you think it, therefore it must be so. You really need to put some decent literature in your bathroom and chuck all those back issues of the NYT.
Contrary to your twisted, convoluted thought processes, conservatives have NO PROBLEM with the freedom of religion guaranteed in our founding documents and we have NO PROBLEM with churches, synagogues, mosques or other religious houses of worship on American soil. On the other hand Saudi Arabia has only Mosques not because Islam is such a magnificent, magnanimous, ecumenical religious order immensely superior to all other religions, as you seem to suggest, but because NO OTHER RELIGION IS ALLOWED OR TOLERATED.
Then you say this: “he sees America as a flawed nation because it is not sufficiently similar in form to theocracies in the Middle East.” and at once you give away the dominating thread in this diatribe. You reveal yourself as either a practicing and devout, Sunni Muslim or one of those on the intellectual American left referred to by them as useful idiots.”
We do not vehemently object to the construction of a mosque on American soil and respect their legal right to do so. If this were the case then why are there currently over 1200 mosques in the United States operating without any incidents of note? What we object to is the obvious defiance of Feisal Abdul Rauf and Daisy Khan in the face of the overwhelming opposition of the American people who are seriously offended by its location, not its presence; this belies their protestations that this is about creating a more tolerant, compassionate image of the Islamic faith and lends credence to the idea that this is the Islamic nations raising a flag of victory over the rubble at ground zero.
I’m sure this was a complete waste of time but I feel so much better.
Mr. Whittle! What a passion and argument! I would like to see (and hear) American leaders to speak like you. Any chance, Sir, that YOU will run for the highest office and soon??…
Mr. Whittle, I have been impressed with your work since the first day I logged on to PJM. This video presentation has set a new standard that I think few will be able to match. Your facts are indisputable, grounded in logic and historical accuracy.
The outcome of ” progressivism ” is a weaker citizenry and a weaker state. Just what the enemy wants.
Since Obamas Cairo speech, where without consultation with Congress, the CIA , the FBI , or the military, he single handedly decided to abdicate the United States position on nuclear non-proliferation, every citizen in America has been sitting on a bulls eye.
Lest some naive dunce promote the fallacy that Obama has been winning friends in the muslim world there is the following-
http://www.brookings.edu/reports/2010/0805_arab_opinion_poll_telhami.aspx
BHOs obvious weakness has done just the opposite. His stance has reduced approval for the USA and increased support for Iran throughout the muslim world.
I know you need no encouragement from me to continue your work as your love of this country and what it stands for jumps from the screen.
Keep roaring like a lion. G-d Bless You.
The Victory Mosque is just the visible tip of a very large iceberg. Beneath the surface of Western societies they are waging a campaign of infiltration, subversion, sedition and social sabotage, with the object of destroying our countries and way of life from within.
I disagree with Bill’s very republican sentiment regarding George Bush’s reaction to 9/11.
From “The Rule of Reason”:
“Former president George W. Bush, the hand-holder of Saudi kings and host to regular Ramadan dinners at the White House, set the moral tone of this ten-year war of attrition after 9/11. Islam, he insisted, is a “religion of peace.” Obama is of the same mind. Read his Cairo speech. Obama is faced with a threat that did not exist in Bush’s time, or at least it is a threat that has grown since then, which is Iran’s nuclear-weapons program, which Obama refuses to act on or to permit Israel to eliminate. Obama, like George Bush and his father, former president George H. W. Bush, believes in sacrifice to attain sacrificial ends. Sacrifice of values is the touchstone of moral purity and worth.
I raise this issue because our current Afghanistan strategy is bound to fail, regardless of whatever military gains we might make. To ensure that the Taliban and al-Quaeda don’t resurge and become another force that could threaten the West, the U.S. would need to apply a “cleansing” policy to the country, similar to the de-Nazification program in Germany and General MacArthur’s de-militarism policy in Japan (to eradicate all sources of Nihon gunkoku shugi), so forcefully described by John Lewis in his lectures and book, Nothing Less Than Victory. Essentially, the country would need to be ‘de-Islamicized.’ ”
We need to get back to our AMERICAN values Bill, not just blindly follow a political party no matter what they say or do simply because “they’re not democrats”.
“To bigotry – no sanction” George Washington 1790.
Cowardice? George W. Bush was the greatest coward ever to hold the office of the president, hiding behind his daddy when he could have served his country in Vietnam, hiding in a hole in Arizona for two days after 9/11. His VP and puppet master was another physical coward who avoided war when his own precious skin was at risk, happy to send thousands to their death in pointless wars when he is well out if the firing line. That’s my definition of cowardice. The USA used to stand for freedom of speech, of thought and of worship, not anymore apparently.
Shame, it was a great idea whilst it lasted, dead now, dead of cowardice.
Paul,
What a pathetic response. This is not a case of bigotry. This is a case of our enemy (Jihad) using our laws and values against us. Our enemy “is holding us hostage by our own virtue” (Ayn Rand). They use our laws and rights, (Laws and rights they do not extend to the people of their own countries) as part of their strategy to conquer, ittle by little. They have a history of defiling the churches and synagogues of conquered lands to show their “power and strength” and that is the goal here. Relocating the mosque does not reduce their religious freedom.
Everything we value is a tool for them in the process of conquering. If we point out that their “religion” treats women as less than human and that stoning a women to death for percieved wrongs is a violation of her human rights – we are intolerant and judgmental. If we value human life and consider churches and schools inappropriate targets in a war, well then that is where they install the missile launchers. We do not intend to kill civilians well then have the terrorists dress as civilians.
You sir, stew in your cowardice and try to claim the moral ground because someone you dispise didn’t go to war. A simple question then. Which war did you voluntarily participate in to demonstrate your love of country and strength of character?
Not to worry though, you’ll soon be given another opportunity as Jihad is not going away without a fight.
I agree with Paul. This isn’t really about bigotry (although there is a bit of that) as much as it is of cowardice. Bush is a sorry assed excuse for an ex president. If he had half an ounce of self respect he would step forward and speak to the issue he defended but he’s apparently a candy assed coward just like most conservatives and the GOP. They feel America is too weak to stand up for the ideals that made her great. It’s better to whore the Constitution for a few cheap short term political points. The Constitution has withstood a lot. It will withstand doily sniffing conservatives and coward teabaggers.
His legacy gets better with every passing day of the Palmer administration. It’s all relative, and it’s full-fledged amateur hour at the white house right now dude, as all but the most oblivious among us can see. He’s headed for sub-40% and he already had a war won for him and came into power right before what should have been a natural economic correction. His clueless economic policy appears to consist of borrowing money from China to pass out band-aids to all the families and businesses he has destroyed. He thinks Austrians speak Austrian. He doesn’t know how to pronounce the word “corpsman” but saps like you put him in charge of our military. You are embarrasing yourself by talking about Bush when Obama has been nothing short of a disaster so far for this country. I’d also love to see those grades from Columbia.
And he’ll be re-elected. Just watch. Gonna be a rough eight-years for you ‘dude.”
That’s probably up to Obama in all honesty, but he doesn’t have the acting chops to keep up the David Palmer routine for all 8 years. If he takes a giant step to the center between now and then he might have a shot if his stagnant economy has improved by then. In other words, he needs to be hoping for a change of leadership in both the house and the senate this year to combat the bleak economy he created. If his own crown jewel gets repealed, he probably has a better shot at getting elected! Or he has to hope his policies don’t do what they inevitably will before the 2012 election. The irony is just absolutely rich, dude. Come on, admit it.
You seem to find pleasure in the fact that this president is destoying prosperity in this country. Dad’s can no longer work and provide for their families – what was it 500,000 new jobless claims this week? Zippidy freakin do-dah – 4 more years of assault on the American Family.
Obama makes Bush look like Superman.
When I saw Obama bow to the dictator of Saudi Arabia and then heard Obama praise him for his ” great wisdom ” I almost threw up.
Welcome to the sharia that Rauf wants to impose on America…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxmBp23W6nc
More Bush derangement syndrome – that’s pathetic. You want him to speak out about this and rescue Sorry O Blah Blah’s idiotic comments on the issue. Bush was an American president supported this country’s best interestes. Exacty the opposite of Obama.
“Are modern policies of appeasement encouraging Islamic extremists?”
I guess you would have to start changing amendments in your constitution.
One of the major flaws of American strategy in Afghanistan is evading the fact that it is not so much the Taliban our military is fighting, but Islam itself. Even if we managed to wipe out the Taliban and al-Quaeda, Islam would remain in the culture. Islam is at its core anti-Western, anti-reason, anti-all pro-life values. For example, what guarantee did we ever have that Iraq would not revert back to some form of Islamic law or a corrupt regime? Well, look at the government there. We expended lives and treasure there — thousands of lives and billions of dollars — for what? So that charlatans, non-entities, and mediocrities can vie for power?
Great Britain WAS pretty magnificient in WWII once it was forced in. Of course they needed Winnie C. to lead the way. A half-American was enough to turn most Brits around.
But who do WE import, to turn America around?
I think what this argument boils down to is the intent of the developers. If we could know for sure their intentions are good, I could be swayed to support the mosque. However, I don’t believe their intentions are good for a number of reasons:
- The mosque was originally named the Cordoba House. The Caliphate of Córdoba ruled the Iberian peninsula (Al-Andalus) and North Africa from the city of Córdoba, from 929 to 1031. This period was characterized by remarkable success in trade and culture; many of the masterpieces of Islamic Iberia were constructed in this period, including the famous Great Mosque of Córdoba. The rule of the Caliphate is known as the heyday of Muslim presence in the Iberian peninsula.
- “For us, a mosque was always a place to pray…not a way to make an ostentatious architectural statement. Ground Zero shouldn’t be about promoting Islam. It’s the place where war was declared on us as Americans.” – Zuhdi Jasser, founder of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy
- Neda Bolourchi, a Muslim whose mother died in 9/11, said: “I fear it would become a symbol of victory for militant Muslims around the world.”
- Authors Raheel Raza and Tarek Fatah, board members of the Muslim Canadian Congress, said: We Muslims know the … mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation, to thumb our noses at the infidel. The proposal has been made in bad faith, … as “Fitna,” meaning “mischief-making” that is clearly forbidden in the Koran…. As Muslims we are dismayed that our co-religionists have such little consideration for their fellow citizens, and wish to rub salt in their wounds and pretend they are applying a balm to sooth the pain.
- Hossein Kamaly, Term Assistant Professor of Asian and Middle Eastern Cultures at Barnard College, Columbia University, said: “After all, it was 19 Egyptian and Saudi Arabian thugs calling themselves Muslims who perpetrated this heinous crime on September 11th. They want to send a message of friendship, but building a mosque where there wasn’t one before, is not the most nuanced way of doing that.”
- Lastly, even if their intentions are good, I believe that the mosque will be viewed as a “victory for militant Muslims around the world”. Anyone out there who doesn’t see the very real danger to troops in the field is naive at best.
These are quotes from Muslims. Ok wait, wait, lemme guess, they are “race traitors”, right? Is there a Muslim Jesse Jackson available that can point out who the acceptable Muslims are among us and who is “Muslim enough”? In all seriousness, though, we want dialogue – we have waited for 9 years to hear from all these “moderates” – where have they been? Why here, why now? This is quite obviously a stick in the eye, especially to the 9/11 victims and their families (or the “little Eichmans”, as one nutty professor called them). Cordoba House? Come on.
The only real valid comment is from Neda Bolurchi. It is true that it could become such a symbol for militants. The militants are largely illiterate and are easily led by charismatic leaders. Easily led because they are ignorant of history. But they are not that much different from those in our own country who are ignorant of history and easily led as the posts on PJM demonstrate all too well. Stupid is as stupid does. Most never made it past grade school.
Moreover, it should not go unmentioned that about half of those killed in the attack were foreigners. The figure of 3,000 Americans being killed is incorrect.
Praetorian.
Way off base. The militants are NOT illiterate nor do they come from poor backgrounds. It is quite the contrary, the majority of ”militants” (the right word is Jihadis) are well-educated, often well-educated in ”Western” schools, & they often come from afluent backgrounds. They may use & exploit the poor & ignorant as cannon fodder, but these Jihadis are generally sophisticated, use modern technology when it suits them.
They are experts at propaganda & dissimulation.
And YOU are proof of it.
…Terry – Eilat Israel…
…this user of the handle “Praetorian” is a baiter and a wanna-be flamer. Don’t waste your time on him.
So a Muslim’s viewpoints on the mosque are not valid, but your comments are? What are you, some kind of supremacist?
“The militants are largely illiterate and are easily led by charismatic leaders.”
Exactly like those who still support Obama and the disaster he’s brought to this country.
A taste of what political correctness will eventually do to us:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1160958/HE-coward-mocking-victims-friendly-Families-dead-soldiers-react-fury-Muslim-hate-preacher.html
Jason, That article speaks volumes. Thanks for posting.
Republican candidate for congress, Harvard Physicist, Mike Stopa says he would not want a Mosque in his neighborhood.
http://llphfreedom.blogspot.com/2010/08/two-comments-on-issue-of-mosques-by.html
It’s only a few hundred feet from the current proposal, and just like the building in the current proposal, the street in front of this building was filled with dust and debris from the tragic events of 9/11, so it is physically connected to the attack.
Question for the anti-mosque activists in the GOP and the conservative movement: how close is too close?
The reason I ask is that there’s already a mosque within a few blocks of Ground Zero; it’s called Manhattan Masjid and it is four short blocks away from the site of the former World Trade Center. Google it and see for yourself. The existing Manhattan Masjid and the proposed Cordoba House are literally three short blocks away from each other
Wyatt Cenac of The Daily Show visited the Manhattan Masjid earlier this month and Jon Stewart pointed out that it’s been around since before the World Trade Center was built.
So here’s the question for anti-mosquers:
If the currently existing mosque is too close to Ground Zero, by what method should the congregants be removed? Arrest? Angry mob? Or maybe the building should be crushed to rubble by a wrecking ball? What would make you feel good?
If it’s not too close, where is the line of demarcation? How wide should the mosque exclusion zone be? 3 blocks? 2.2 blocks? 3.8 blocks? And on what basis is that line of demarcation drawn?
I guess I have one last question for them: how many of you anti-mosque yokels even knew there already was a mosque in the same general area?
Your basic argument is that zoning laws are unconstitutional. State and municipal zoning laws have been in effect for many many years. My guess is that the constitutionality of such laws has already been decided on. So my question to you is, where in the constitution do you find the legal basis for your argument that such laws are unconstitutional?
Praetorian.
Since you know so much about mosques, obviously you are an expert on this GZM project.
So, I have a question for you.
Why is this mosque/community centre 15 stories tall? What will they use 15 stories for exactly?
Someone came up with an interesting theory, did a lot of research to support their opinion. That person is Christine Brim & she posted an article at Big Peace titled, ”Ground Zero Mosque’s Hidden Websites: Follow the Shari’ah.”
http://bigpeace.com/cbrim/2010/08/17/ground-zero-mosques-hidden-websites-follow-the-shariah/#more-16205
By the way, do YOU support Shari’a law in the US?
Are you really trying to hang yourself with your own logic? Masjid Manhattan has been around since the ’70′s. What is your point? Are you anticipating goading someone into saying that MM should be shut down? There are no subtleties here. That a mosque already exists is not the issue; the issue is the impropriety of building a new mosque on a site 1/10 of a mile from Ground Zero proper and close enough to have sustained significant collateral damage in the form of a chunk of fuselage crashing through the building. To anyone but the most dedicated hairsplitter, the site is functionally part of Ground Zero.
The commentator, who rises to any objection or reservation to his/her comments with schoolyard bully response and adolescent braying, informs us the “leaders” he follows as e.g. the “grey lady” of “all the news that’s fit to print” of Jason Blair et al exposure , and Jon Stewart of the Daily Show. He identifies him/herself as Praetorian.
That alone ought to hint to his position and methods on the subject at hand.
Praetorian also called Leibschutz in recent history.
It is the custom in recent years that any statement from the mouths of babes must be heard with all due respect. We should therefore give the necessary respect to Praetorian’s comments, with the understanding that the operative words are “the mouths of babes”.
I was aware of Manhattan Masjid. It has existed for 30+ years as a moderate mosque and has denounced the Islamaic extremests who were responsible for 9/11. The iman at the center of all this ruckus has said we as Americans are responsible and Bin-Laden was born in the USA. Born meaning idealogically born. Wrote a book entitled in arabic something like Islam’s domination from the rubble of ground zero. This iman views Hamas as a charitable organization. There’s a difference. This is a Victory Mosque for Islam – it’s what the radical element of islam which is a significant percentage of muslims have been doing for 1500 years.
Hear! Hear!
Well spoken (oops, sorry, didn’t mean to insult that well known “well-spoken” person…oh wait…yes I DID!)
Are modern policies of appeasement encouraging Islamic extremists?
I’ve pondered the same thing about Catholics and Christians. We give them far too much leeway, and what have we got to show for it? Child-Buggerers and Doctor-Killers. They should be forced to keep their churches far from hospitals and far from schools and playgrounds. Once we’ve got those types taken care of, you know, boy howdy, we’re going to get on the case of those Muslims, too. It’s just that there’s so many more Catholics and Christians, that we should get started on them first. Don’t you think? Otherwise, this time tomorrow you’ll be reading about the next abortion clinic bombing or child-buggering episode.
Many who support the mosque at Ground Zero make the false analogy that only some muslims are evil and support the attackers as only some priests are evil because they are pedophiles. Just as one does not condemn christianity for the acts of a few one should not condemn islam for the acts of a few.
The difference is that priests who are pedophiles are violating christian principals while the terrorists who attacked us were following islamic principals.
http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4523.htm
Wow–this debate is really drawing in the Leftists–I think Emmett Tyrell is right: they support the mosque because it bothers a solid majority of Americans. Let’s hope many more Democratic politicans take this courageous, principled stand–preferably before November. Why hasn’t Chuck Schumer been helping push back against the tea party hordes? Where is Kirsten Gillibrand?
The truth is, Imam Rauf is just getting the dialogue he claimed he wanted–indeed, claimed was the very purpose of bulding the Cordoba House. No one has taken away–or, as far as I know, tried to take away–the property or forbid the building. We all just want to talk: what do you think about 9/11? About slaughtering Israeli civilians? Where is all the money coming from? What was that you had to say about the Iranian regime? All very interesting questions, no? And I’d be willing to bet that if Rauf were to deign to answer a few of them, new, perhaps even more interesting questions might come up. Maybe people will be marching outside the Cordoba House everyday with the latest questions they’ve thought up on placards, or they’ll be posting such questions on billboards throughout the city. Who could object?
As powerful as Whittle’s msg is, he’s mistaken w/couple points in this video.
http://tinyurl.com/manhattan-moderates demonstrates Masjid Manhattan’s so called tolerant stand re Park51/Cordoba which displayed a banner on its website stating: Build the “House of Allah” next to the World Trade Center ! Help us raise he flag of “LA ILLAHA ILLA ALLAH” ! As for Darfur, Whittle could have delved into the murder, pillage, enslavement of Muslim non-Arabs as well as the ethnic cleansing by rape to infuse Arab DNA. Islam is an Arab supremacist creed. . .a different but equal variety of multiculturalism. Mohammed is quoted as saying that Blacks are, “pug-nosed slaves”. (Sahih Moslem vol. 9, p. 46-47).
CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS!!!
Why the Hell is no one even bothering to talk about the Greek Orthodox Church (that was in the shadow of the WTC which was obliterated by the falling towers) which is being denied the right to REBUILD ON ITS OWN PROPERTY?!!!
My fellow dudes and dudettes,
The mosque has a constitutional right to be where they want to put it. This whole location thingy is a lot of adieu for nothing. Choose life! L’Chaim! Peace out!
I would like to comment on the Muslims proposal to build a mosque in the general vicinity of the fallen towers.
I will confess I am neither Muslim or Christian.I am a Deist. This possibyl allows me to stand outside the fray and look at it more objectivly.
First of all the constitution gurantees freedom of religon. Structures of any persuasion are allowed to be built as long as they meet state and local codes.With the current feelings regarding 9/11 the construction of a mosque in the proposed area is in poor taste. However, I repeat, the muslims have the right.
Those who brought down the towers were murderers who hid behind the muslim faith to justify the horror they brought about that day. People of this group have slaughterd innocent people over the world including thier own.
Now let’s flip the coin. Many years back in the early time of our country in a place called Mystic Con. a band of Christians planned and excicuted a surprise attack on the of the Pequat Indian tribe. They slaughtered almost all men women and children. Few escaped. They wanted the land and killing hundreds of indians ment nothing. Later on in time at a place called Salem MA. Christians hung women and crushed men because of their ignorance and foolish superstitions. In South America Christians wiped civiliztaions from the face of the earth for gold. A group of people from Yale set sail for Hawaii. They dessimated the people on these islands as they forced their religon upon them.
Both of the above religons do not preach hate. It is those that use these religons to juatify the crimes they commit upon humanity. All people on both sides of this contraversy should step back and try using common sense.I realize common sense is not common these days.
More proof of the fool on the hill showing his true colors & beliefs. BozObama is letting our troops get killed in a supposed war against terror in the middle east. All the while, the moron is behind a dung hole of a mosque being built near ground zero. The idiot has to be aware that the American public is not as stupid as he would like to believe in that the same muslimaniacs we are fighting on the other side of the world want the same frigging thing the builders of the mosque want & that is…….sharia law…….. for the entire world. Muslimaniacs are the same all over, there is no such thing as a “moderate” muslimaniac, only those who say they are but just haven’t gotten the call to arms yet, then watch how moderately they kill or subjugate the infidels. Also, by the way, New York, New York, wait until the blasts for prayer start coming from the minarets at this mosque, it will resound & echo for many blocks around this outhouse mosque 5 times a day 365 days a year & will make you rue the day you allowed it to be built. For that matter, the administration in DC says they don’t believe islam is an enemy of the US, well islam considers us & all western Judaeo-Christian as well as all infidel faiths as enemies, there is no denying that. In reality, there should not be any outhouses like this one built on our soil. Look what’s happening in the European countries that have politically correctly allowed muslimaniacs to begin the take over of their culture & country & it’s being condoned by PC administrations all over the USA. Wake up America, stand up America, speak up America or it’s all ours to lose. I believe that BozObama would prefer the title of grand ayatollah of the USA rather than the title of president & that is where all this is headed. Hussein swore to “protect this country from all enemies, both foreign & domestic”, islam is nothing if not the enemy of America & all the civilized world.
Bottom line.
The Declaration of Independence, ” We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. ”
Sharia Law creates a second-class citizenry of all non-muslims. Therefore it is antithetical to all American values. Rauff is on record as seeking to promote sharia law. He has no right to build a mosque anywhere on US soil.
Are modern policies of appeasement encouraging Islamic extremists?
Not just Islamic extremists.
Check out the gaggle of New Leftist identity political groups, bro.
they forget to mention WHY, this new center is being called Cordoba, do a little historical research and you will see, the same reason the Ottoman Turks built mosques in the Balkans. the same reason they built the mosque and domed shrine in Jerusalem.
I just say bury a dozen pigs at that site, and no mosque will be built anywhere near.