GOP vs. Obama: The Gloves Come Off
Senator Kit Bond of Missouri, Vice Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, held a press conference call with a small group of bloggers. If he is representative of the GOP caucus, it appears that the Republicans are in fighting form — ready to take on the president on his approach (or lack thereof) to the war on terror and on key portions of his domestic agenda.
The topic of the day was the release of the interrogation memos and the president’s vacillating position on a so-called truth commission to investigate potential illegal conduct by Bush administration officials in the war on terror.
Bond declared that after last week the administration is “in disarray” and accused the Obama team of making decisions “on the basis of politics and not national security.” But he emphasized that a series of discrete actions by the president (e.g., announcing the closure of Guantanamo, releasing the CIA memos, deciding to release photos of detainee abuse in Iraq and Afghanistan) should not be looked at in isolation. Rather, he said, Americans should be asking how these are making us safer. He asked, “What is this administration’s strategy?”
In response to questions on the impact of the memos release on the CIA, he said, “The president sent the message to CIA: it’s time to CYA.” And he queried whether the president “has their back or will stab them in the back.” He asserted that detainees now know that they can be expected to endure no harsher questioning than a new Army or SEAL recruit.
I asked what he could tell us about congressional oversight and awareness of the interrogation program. He was emphatic that the “Gang of Four,” which included Nancy Pelosi, “was briefed by the CIA.” He contends that they “understood what the CIA was doing and gave bipartisan support and funding.” He noted that the activities were fully funded in 2006, although Congress did make a request for more information. He pointed out that if Pelosi found the program objectionable, “there was plenty she could have done,” including cutting CIA funding, demanding a closed session of Congress, writing a letter, or meeting with other members. “She didn’t do anything,” he explained.
Later I inquired about the plan to potentially release Guantanamo prisoners into the U.S. He was quick to reply that “Missourians would not stand for terrorists released [into the U.S.],” nor would people from other states. He again asked what the Obama administration’s plan to “make us safer” could be if the president was contemplating the release of dangerous detainees. He reiterated that at least 18 and perhaps as many as 43 “Guantanamo graduates” had returned to the battlefield.
Pressed again to explain the administration’s approach, he said, “Looking backwards is the wrong direction.” And as for Congress’ motivations he declared, “A lot of people are still suffering from Bush derangement syndrome.”
Do you know how not to give “enemies” a propoganda victory? You don’t do anything to give them one to begin with. It would seem much easier not to have tortured prisoners to begin with than torturing them (in violation of dozens and dozens of US laws) and trying to cover it up.
The fact that we hypocritically violated our own laws on torture wasn’t exactly a deep secret when these memos were released. Numerous people went on record in the last five years with the exact stories that these memos confirmed.
It is hysterical that pundits like Ms. Rubin have yet to address several on-the-record statements from former interrogators that the White House directed them to use waterboarding to get KSM and others to “confess” a link between Al Queda and Iraq in the months leading up to the invasion. Not one of you have addressed the mountain of evidence that the previous Administration had been formulating the extreme changes to interregation policy BEFORE KSM and others were even captured, which indicates that the “ticking time bomb” scenario was a lie.
Finally, if you truly feel that methods that were defined by United States law as “torture” (please read the UN Convention on torture that Reagan himself ratified) are perfectly acceptable, then why do you feel Bush’s administration punished the Abu Ghirab guards to the level they did? Were those guards “bad apples” or were they told to do what they did?
As much as I would like to believe that the congress critters of the Republican Party variety have suddenly developed a backbone, we shall see. Voting record defines all.
Erasmus: what “torture?”
“methods that were defined by United States law as “torture” ” is a nonsense statement, and based on a most absurdly broad reading of the UNCT.
“What is this administration’s strategy?”
Quick answer: To render the United States of America defenseless from within and without in order to implement the ultimate goal of the entire restructuring of America’s economic, political, social and cultural life into one of socialism/fascism.
The above answer fits all questions about Obama’s motivation, goals, schemes, agendas and strategies. It fits all of the questions about why he has lied and about-faced, why he has hired tax-evaders, why he rubbed elbows with Ayers, why he stayed in Rev. White’s church for 20 years, why he moved to Chicago, why he keeps apologizing for the United States, why he bowed before the Saudi king, why he chummed up with Chavez, why he is lifting the sanctions on Cuba, why he is ignoring Russia’s moves against Georgia, why he is doing nothing about North Korea, why he is doing nothing about the Taliban in Pakistan, why he was silent when those guys hung the effigy of Sarah Palin, why he knows Rashid Khalili, why he knows Tony Rezko, why he knows George Soros, why he does nothing about Iran, why he gave the British PM movies and the queen an ipod, why he ran for president when he should have been working as a senator, why he voted “present” rather than show his true leftism.
3. Bill, so all those officials who went on the record that the interrogation methods that were being ordered were “torture” were all wrong?
If what we were doing wasn’t “torture”, then why exactly were the Abu Ghirab guards punished again?
Pardon me for my skepticism, but when the main talking point from the Rubber Hose Right last week was that waterboarding someone 183 times in a month in 2003(which would be every four hours for thirty consecutive days)somehow enabled Homeland Security to thwart an LA attack that had been called off the previous year by Al Queda, it’s hard to take the pronouncements that these interrogation methods were perfectly legal at face value.
I’ll ask again, but when the former interregators went on the record stating that they were ordered to get KSM to “confess” to an Al Queda/Iraq alliance, were they lying in their statements, or was the White House trying to manufacture evidence for their already decided upon invasion.
But by all means, screaming about Jeremiah Wright is so much more important than actually asking for the real reasons for attacking a country that had nothing to do with 9/11.
Yet more proof that our government is not “for the people” any longer. When it defines conservatives as terrorists and real terrorist acts as man-made tragedies, we are all going to hell in a handbasket. Truly it’s time to clean house. Carter II must go. The entire Congress must go. I could go on and on about Carter II’s hatred of America as shown by his policies, but until the GOP or any 3rd party takes him and his administration to task, they are all complicate.
I really would like to see proof that what was done to protect this nation was torture. And just because a politician jumps on the bandwagon of some leftist organization/group’s definition of what torture is, doesn’t constitute proof. And yes, that would include McCain, just because he said it was torture doesn’t make it so. Politicians would label eating brussel sprouts as torture if it got them more votes. No law specifically spells out what torture is, hence the need for lawyers to write opinions on what does and does not constitute torture.
Do you know how not to give “enemies” a propoganda (sic) victory? .
For starters you don’t describe as torture a procedure which: is used on only on the top three terrorists; is used only under the supervision of a doctor; and which causes no bodily harm.
What is Sen.McConnell thinking ?Obama has done nothing to unite the country.He is actually making a conscious effort to alienate anyone who disagrees with him in the slightest degree.
You can bet there will “Show Trials” in some form to punish the Bush Administration for keeping the country free from “Man made disasters” for seven years.He also wants to try to embarrass Republicans close to the 2010 elections.
I only wish the Republicans would really take the gloves off.When the Messiah uses Reconciliation in the Senate to cripple private enterprise in this country it will be too late.
This stunt the US Government pulled today is indicative of how detached Washington is from the daily fears of the American public: they flew a 747 at low altitude around NYC and had two F16 fighters chase it as a “photography event.” Look around the net, eg. NY Post with videos by scared out of their mind residents–my hands are shaking cried on photog–as these planes flew around lower Manhattan in a circle over the harbor, just as the second WTC plane did. What were they thinking? Obviously not what we are.
Hey why not set off some cherry bombs at the Atocha train station, or maybe a smoke bomb at a Bali disco?! Great photo events!
The present administration is just not getting it, if Bush had done this there would have been new calls for impeachment of an out of touch President.
The Obama administration just provided graphic proof of incompetence to their biggest fans. New York City.
ThinkingPerson, I suppose you have an easy explanation as to why the DHS report on Right-Wing extremism was actually ordered and primarily compiled by the BUSH administration? The funny thing is that when Obama’s DHS published the report about Left-Wing extremist groups, you didn’t see an equivalent freakout on the left.
May I ask you to cite in the DHS report just where the actual word “conservative” appeared? The eagerness of some on the right to self-identify with REAL right-wing extremist groups like the Klan, Ayran Nation, etc is somewhat baffling to watch. It’s hard to take your “the entire Congress must go” rhetoric seriously, because when push comes to shove, you’ll vote Republican like an ignorant little sheep each and every time.
Kevin, the problem with secretly rewriting or in some cases ignoring existing US laws about torture is the question of just where do you draw the line? If simulating drowning is acceptable, what exactly would prevent us from, say, chopping off limbs. Why not authorize the US to execute family members of suspected terrorists in order to gain a confession. If we begin to use the “ends justify the means” as a crutch, just how would you prevent such tactics from being used on US citizens? Are we a nation of laws and ideals, or are we a police state willing to sacrifice liberty for security?
#7, actually, under the UN Convention, eating brussel sprouts probably is torture. But that definition is totally circular, since it says that torture is unlawful but anything that is lawful is not torture.
#5, I surely would like to know who these “on the record” officials are. Since they are “on the record,” you should have no problem telling me their names and where I can find the video.
Erasmus, I would like to know who these “on the record officials” are supposed to be. If they are “on the record” then I’m sure you can tell me their names and give me a link to the video.
10. Right Brain, who would get impeached over a photograph? One would have to find an actual violation of the law, apart from people being so paranoid and filled with fear that they freak out at every little old thing.
8. Since when has torture been redefined as methods that cause visible bodily harm? Of course, there are reams of evidence that those who were tortured in Gitmo indeed suffered physical harm. Unless you think that the Red Cross and all the former interregators who have given statements are all lying.
By the way, any doctor who participates in an interregation that requires their services to prevent the suspect from actually dying should have their license pulled.
You want names?
Ali Soufan, Ian Fishback, Alberto Mora, Antonio Taguba, of course you’ll probably determine that they are all lying.
Oh, and for a refresher course on just why torture is illegal under US law:
Title 18, Part I, Chapter 113C, § 2340. Title 18 of the United States Code, Part I, Chapter 113C, § 2340A
Not to mention that the US is a signatory to five separate treaties prohibiting torture.
Erasmus, we don’t see you complaining about KSM standing there as handcuffed, immobilized innocents had their heads sawed off with steak knives. It just doesn’t bother you; or else you would take the side of your country and support our people trying to bring these filth to justice.
What does bother you however, is that KSM was captured and waterboarded, releasing information that prevented an Al-Qaida attack on LA. Virtually all countries use waterboarding, and this country has since World War 1.
That you mention Abu-Grahb, where the perpetrators were convicted and sentenced, shows that you wish to justify your terrorist sympathy by pointing out an incident where justice was already served long ago.
The reason Abu Grahb was on the front page of the NY Times for 43 consecutive days – and Daniel Pearl not at all – was that it was a solitary and minor incident that could be exagerrated to exploit the hatred that newspaper’s readers harbor to the US.
That you say we “attacked a country that has nothing to do with 9/11″ is another classic lib argument that the two were supposed to be linked. They were not. We went into Afghanistan to get the Taliban.
You statement shows that you don’t know the goal was to get Saddam, not “attacking” Iraq. You are completely oblivious to the reasons the UN authorized the US to remove him after decades of murder and millions in mass graves still dug up to this day.
But fortunately your liberal compassion absolves you from having to look at the facts too closely.
The leftist establishment don’t really think we are in a war to the death against Islamic nihilism. Push them to the wall and ask them this question: how should we have treated the Nazis during WWII? Aren’t today’s Muslim extremists as dangerous as Hitler’s thugs? No, they are convinced that the war on terror is a scam job—and possibly even a racist attack on dark skinned minorities.
Erasmus
I’d love to torture you. Tie you down and make you listen to punk rock and heavy metal music. I’d have your sanity in a few hours.
I love how you go after these guys, like a true Obama robot. I don’t care about the legality of if, was it effective and did it prevent another 9/11. Word is it did in deed. If you were on the 70th floor of the World Trade Center and the fire was below you with people jumping out of the windows, you would have know what real torture is. Quit your pontificating, it is as hollow as you are. Go back to your cage and surround yourself with other liberals. Sing your song of legality, love, harmony, and collectivization. This group doesn’t buy a word you say.
excuse my typos
Observation from afar:
It took almost 70 years after WWII. to start the revisionist re-writing of History in full force – which includes the denial of the Holocaust, self-condemnations of our nation for defeating the brutal enemy with the assault on Hiroshima and Dresden, among other places.
It took 20 years since the collapse of the Bolshevik empire and their death camps named Gulags, the show trials and the Berlin wall:
The rehabilitation of Communist genocide is now in full swing, yesterday’s bloody murderers are the new heroes like Ayers, Fidel etc.
It took mere 8 years since the horrible death of our citizens in N.Y.C. and those who facilitated the carnage like Gorelick and her ilk feverishly working on the recreation of the same conditions that made terrorism possible…they are now in the driver seat making huge money. — Your leaders.
From afar I cannot hide my contempt and utmost disgust towards people who are arguing on the final number of corpses burned at Auschwitz, who are haggling over whether or not the SS deserved THAT! heavy blow, and how guilty were those who protected us from the terrorists.
They are parsing words that have no meaning, accusing others – yet they are the worst scumbags of the human species.
There are no words which could accurately describe the absolute moral decay and depravity of many of these human worms whom are represented by the Radical Left.
This country deserves the most severe punishment for treason and betrayal of their own family, friends and citizens and nation.
Terry Gain: “Do you know how not to give “enemies” a propoganda (sic) victory? .
For starters you don’t describe as torture a procedure which: is used on only on the top three terrorists; is used only under the supervision of a doctor; and which causes no bodily harm.”
Waterboarding can cause bodily harm; it can cause serious lasting damage to the lungs. But that’s not even the point. The point is that waterboarding is illegal and the Bush administration broke the law.
Why is it that reactionary right wingers can so easily justify the impeachment of a sitting Democratic president over an affair with an intern, while simultaneously screaming bloody murder at the mere mention of investigation of a Republican administration that tortured and killed civilians, many of whom were unrelated to any terrorist act or organization?
Hypocrites.
This is about the 2010 election and will be used by the press and other facists for more Obama propaganda, such as Republicans are evil, Democrats are your saviors. Take the gloves off Republicans! If you go down, you go down fighting for your nation in a manly way. Tell those Democrats to come out from behind(and under)those skirts.
Erasmus writes:
“By the way, any doctor who participates in an interregation that requires their services to prevent the suspect from actually dying should have their license pulled.”
..how about the doctors who work at abortion clinics?
@ 16 Erasmus The Innocent
Of course, there are reams of evidence that those who were tortured in Gitmo indeed suffered physical harm.
Evidence which has not undergone the rigor of AUDI ALTEREM PARTEM is not evidence but rather accusation .
Aren’t today’s Muslim extremists as dangerous as Hitler’s thugs?
More so, for four reasons. They are motivated by religious zealotry. Their ambition is camoflauged by religion. The threat they pose is underestimated. This is the nuclear age.
Erasmus,
Waterboarding is not torture. End of discussion.
Let’s review – while Obama prepares to prosecute Bush Advisers, and Bush, the following is going on:
1) Pirates running amok on the sea.
2) Battle for Afghanistan stagnates, at best.
3) Battle for Pakistan in opening stages.
4) NoK restarts it’s Nuke Weaps Systems.
5) Iran continues to be a State Sponsor of Terrorism.
6) Iran continues to build towards Nuclear Power.
7) Narco-Terror proliferation on the S. Border with Mexico.
8) Increasing Cyber attacks from China (perhaps the most lethal)
9) Potential Swine Flue **demic?
10 Economic Performance as related to National Security.
I’m sure I missed something in my off the cuff list.
Anyway, I’m sure glad were concerned for these detainees who may have been forced to lose some sleep, or called bad names, or had some water thrown in their face, or, I think I read about the guy who had a fear of insects – so lawyers debated for hours on whether it would be legal to slip a caterpillar in the cell…..seriously….I hope Obama sees fit to take care of this massive threat to us all…….
..how about the doctors who work at abortion clinics?
Bingo. The unabashed supporters of abortion wrongs, including partial birth abortion, want to lecture conservatives on morality for taking allegedly excessive measures to protect innocent human life. Upside down stupid hypocrits.
Open Letter to the People of New York City,
What is all the fuss about this morning? So I had a photo op done while scaring the living crap out of you all! Big deal. Its not like there was any precedent for worry. 09/11 was really an inside job orchestrated by the Elder Council of Zion. Believe me, NO terrorist attack could ever happen again! We are strangling the Jewish enemy as I write this. My negotiations with our allies Assad and Achmadinijad(sp)continue. By stepping up our funding of the freedom fighters in Gaza by tenfold, the next Israeli incursion into Palestinian homelands will be their last. Sleep well tonight, my fellow comra…er, Americans.
Sincerely,
The divine and most merciful
First Emperor of the Americas
BHO
Anonymous wrote: “Why is it that reactionary right wingers can so easily justify the impeachment of a sitting Democratic president over an affair with an intern, while simultaneously screaming bloody murder at the mere mention of investigation of a Republican administration that tortured and killed civilians, many of whom were unrelated to any terrorist act or organization? Hypocrites.”
Allow me to retort: Maybe the Obama Admin should open prosecution on Clinton for bombing the milk/aspirin factory in Sudan.
You brought up Clinton……Not me. And he perjured himself in court and was dis-barred as well.
I’m being tortured right now and I want a truth commission to investigate why I am being tortured. It’s torturous watching our country disappear right before our eyes.
I find jeaneane garafolo’s face and voice to be very torturous. I think Macy Gray’s voice is also torturous.
So who the hell is going to define what is and what isn’t torture? I think it’s friggin’ torturous to have 1/3 of my paycheck taken away, forcefully, and given to ne’er-do-wells who choose not to work.
And I can tell you it was torture of a most terrifying kind to see those airplanes fly into the World Trade Center. Reading about a be-heading is torture. I won’t want the video, thank you, since that would be a form of self-inflicted torture. That’s an image I don’t need burned into my retinas, thankyouverymuch.
Water boarding? Pah – try surfing. You’ll get water in your nose, eyes, mouth, and if you’re really lucky, you might get a nice salt water enema while you’re at it.
Loud music? Try living with teen-agers. Bugs? Try living in Minnesota with the mosquitos.
They call this torture????
#24 Boncka – Touche.
@Erasmus:
Based on your position, I believe you haven’t read the memos in question or otherwise have a clue about what you’re talking about.
The definition of “Torture” from a legalese perspective is something that causes permanent and or long lasting physical or psychological harm. If you actually read the justice dept. memos they are fairly well reasoned in this regard; as 26,000 American’s have been “water boarded” and put through stress positions as part of SERE school or even basic training for special forces.
you said:
“If simulating drowning is acceptable, what exactly would prevent us from, say, chopping off limbs. Why not authorize the US to execute family members of suspected terrorists in order to gain a confession.”
What part about “simulated” haven’t you figured out yet?
Would simulated limb removal be ok? Or Simulated executions of family members? Is that torture?
Next, lets analyze your next impassioned failbucket of cliches:
If we begin to use the “ends justify the means” as a crutch, just how would you prevent such tactics from being used on US citizens? Are we a nation of laws and ideals, or are we a police state willing to sacrifice liberty for security?
The Ends (The avoidance of an attack against millions of civillians) justifies the means (Water boarding known terrorists operatives) seems to be pretty congruent based on the legal advice given. So it’s not much of a crutch, at least in reality seeing as water boarding doesn’t appear to be outright illegal (see info about SERE school). We aren’t all programmed by the “Law” and this is why we have moral faculties to determine what is right in a specific set of circumstances; even then what is immoral can certainly be legal.
I see it a lot with your type of crowd that wants it both ways: You can’t simultaneously say that putting a prisoner on reduced rations is torture and that force feeding is also torture; in both cases the only commonality of circumstance is that the prisoner *is* a prisoner and is not entitled to ‘free will’.
The only way to logically work that this out in terms of your stated position is to say that the confinement against free will is torture; which is not the case when performed under collar of authority in a system of due process; even if that process is very very messy. Like in war time for instance.
Waterboarding is not torture and saying it is over and over and louder and louder will not make it so.
Erasmus,
-Psst..just between you and me…Daily Kos postings from stoned sociology majors in hookah bars ain’t “mountains of evidence.”
-I sure hope DHS is keeping an eye on Dem. Senator Byrd, being the ex-Klan extremist that he is.
-Of the major characters in The Praise of Folly, are you
Anoia or Eegretos Hypnos?
I hope Obama pursues these prosecutions. The people will let him know what they think of it in ’10 and ’12.
I hope the GOP takes it to the Dems, I’ve really had it! As for torure, how does erasmus feel about people who were incinerated, vaporized and unable to be recovered for their families to bury and mourn? How about the people who were on those planes who knew they were going to die a horrible death? How about those who were beheaded with dull knives? HOw about our soldiers who had their genitals cut off and stuffed in their mohts before their hearts were cut out in Iraq? Those instances WERE torture. I don’t care what we have to do to protect AMerican lives. Perhaps erasmus et al. would like to decide which American city they would sacrifice to maintain moral authority.
I breath solvent fumes all day in my occupation, people cut their fingers off, hands get mangled in machinery, men fall off the roof and die; if the leftist lawyers were to discover that I was in some way an embarrassment to the Bush administration, I’d have a hundred doctors and psychiatrists huddling over me, declaring how foully I’ve been treated and how I may never recover.
I’ve read the accounts of torture, and for the life of me, I am nonplussed. Maybe if you live your life at Boalt Law School and the most strenuous thing you do is mountain bike along the bike trail to the Cafe, then I suppose Guantanamo must look pretty scary. But if I were a battle-hardened jihad fighter, accustomed to freezing nights, unbearable heat, awful food, and some of the worst conditions in the world, I’d laugh my ass off at all the pansy lawyers fretting over my well-being. They probably expected razors and electrocution followed by a summary shot to the head; what they got was barking dogs, the occasional punch to the gut, and the dunk tank.
As America grows more effete, and as the stoner generation takes power, the definition of what constitutes torture will become more and more laughable until torture will have no meaning whatsoever. Torture will mean whatever an NYU lawyer says it does; it will be a political tool of the radical left to intimidate military and intelligence officials.
#22 -That just may have been over perjury and obstruction of justice – not the affair. Get your facts straight. Otherwise you are repeating a lie and hoping it becomes a fact. Also, check what happened to Bill’s ability to be a practicing lawyer.
President Obama’s pandering to the Left fringe–his true core–will make certain the battle lines are drawn in the sand with the Republicans; however, the Republicans need to actually possess a backbone & voice their opposition. Most of the current Republicans are spineless jellyfish without water. I’m talking to you Mitch McConnell…
He still things that he is in a political campaign, he is turning this country like a banana republic, eliminate prior presidents like a good dictator he is following this process. I also contact that is suffers from NPD “Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder defined by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the diagnostic classification system used in the United States, as “a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy.”
Check this out:
DSM IV-TR criteria
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance
2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3) believes that he or she is “special” and can only be understood by, or should associate with, people (or institutions) who are also “special” or of high status.
4) requires excessive admiration
5) has a sense of entitlement
6) is inter-personally exploitative
7) lacks empathy
8) is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
And to all of this you add his his mother Marxism indoctrination of him and you can see the result.
It’s time for action, not talk. The 2010 elections are at hand. Republican leadership should be setting the agenda now, not later. I can’t think of a better time to give voice to the constitutional concept of “checks and balances.” The Congress was deemed a check on the powers given to the President. It can’t possibly function as such, in today’s political climate, when the same party has amajority in both houses and can confirm the President’s nominees to the Supreme Court (certain to be partican nominees in the present administration).
Goodness, I hope these posters who oppose torture will be ready to explain to the nice Muslims who come to cut the heads off their wives and girlfriends why they shouldn’t do it.
You little boys had better hope you lose this policy’defense argument because if you don’t, there won’t be anybody left to protect you when the whole thing goes down.
But, having said that, I suppose you’ll be marchin’ for barry and wearin’ the pretty brown shirt he gave you with pretty circles and blue things on it. You’ll be the ones comin’ after me.
Somebody has got to get the fraud out of the White House.
I agree with an earlier poster: if indeed the “gloves are coming off”, that’s fine. I’ll believe it when I see the performance to the end. Conservatives do understand now that, as Americans, we stand alone. We no longer count on Republicans.
Erasmus,
Even with the law provided, the definition of torture is not concrete. That is why lawyers were asked to research the issue. They had plenty of evidence to support the position that the methods being proposed were not torture. Again, just because you believe it to be torture, does not make it torture, therefore the entire “ends does not justify the means” argument is rendered moot. I do not see it as torture, therefore the agents engaged in the interrogations, and those who issued the reports defining the legal standing of the methods should not be prosecutable just because the new administration disagrees with it’s predecessor. That smacks nothing but of politics. And it is proving to be a bad move on the One’s part.
Hey Erasmus,
Want to see torture? You should be forced, along with your fellow Obamabot liberals, to sit and repeatedly watch the video or Daniel Pearl having his head sawn off by Sheik Mohammed and then come back and mewl to me about the horrible torture Mohammed underwent. He got some water shot up his murdering nose. I’m sure Daniel Pearl and those 3,000 Americans who died on 9-11 would take his “torture” over what they got. You are a sniveling idiot.
36. aramkr:
Watch out! You might get what you hope for: Republicans going down in flames and to jail (?!!) backbiting and in fighting RINOs and Libertarians, Democratic plants taking one for the party to take down the evil Repubs. Pelosi, Obama and crew sail into re-election landslide.
Its not how you see it, its how the Media paints it, and its not pretty for the Republicans. MANY people never heard of Tea parties and relate them to racist rednecks.
I think of the words of Jim Morrison: one more time, thats all ya got, can you get it together, can you get it all together? One more time?
If anyone else releasedthese documents, they’d be tried for treason.
Neverquit – How do you square the following with your view that waerboarding is not torture
“. On November 29, 2007, Sen. McCain, while campaigning in St. Petersburg, Florida, said, “Following World War II war crime trials were convened. The Japanese were tried and convicted and hung for war crimes committed against American POWs. Among those charges for which they were convicted was waterboarding.”
Sen. McCain was right and the National Review Online is wrong. Politifact, the St. Petersburg Times’ truth-testing project (which this week was awarded a Pulitzer Prize), scrutinized Sen. McCain’s statement and found it to be true. Here’s the money quote from Politifact:
“McCain is referencing the Tokyo Trials, officially known as the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. After World War II, an international coalition convened to prosecute Japanese soldiers charged with torture. At the top of the list of techniques was water-based interrogation, known variously then as ‘water cure,’ ‘water torture’ and ‘waterboarding,’ according to the charging documents. It simulates drowning.” Politifact went on to report, “A number of the Japanese soldiers convicted by American judges were hanged, while others received lengthy prison sentences or time in labor camps.”
The folks at Politifact interviewed R. John Pritchard, the author of The Tokyo War Crimes Trial: The Complete Transcripts of the Proceedings of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. They also interviewed Yuma Totani, history professor at the University of Nevada-Las Vegas, and consulted the Columbia Journal of Transnational Law, which published a law review article entitled, “Drop by Drop: Forgetting the History of Water Torture in U.S. Courts.”
I just picked my booger and rubbed it on you. na-na-naaaaaaaaaaaa.
TORTURE!
-But, wait! The booger missed my intended victim and hit an innocent bystander.
DOUBLE torture!
Well, color me purple but this just in…
The accidental torture-ee likes to eat boogers?
Meanwhile, a bunch of skanky sleaze-bags design clothing for
hangerser women and young girls develop eating disorders but that’s not torture?The ‘gang of four’ are no more. 0bama wants his own ‘gang bangers ala ACORN’. Screw the military, CIA, FBI et al.
Get ready for a shake-n-bake down.
The American left’s primary enemy has always been christians or conservatives, and the only threat they perceive from islamic terrorism is the power it gives the American right as a political weapon. I believe Michael Moore stated it a few days after 9/11, “there is no terrorist threat” which has mostly been the universal message from the far-left for some time now. Some leftist professors actually enjoyed what happened on 9/11, which I’m sure you will remember vividly. Basically, their enemy will always be exclusive to anyone that stands in the way of their secular progressive agenda.
Whereas, classic liberals on the other hand have differing opinions about the seriousness of islamic jihad. They are small in number, but vocal, and are often called names neo-cons if not worse by the hard left.
If you will also recall, there was an uproar from the left about the treatment of Saddam Hussein after his capture. I can remember Madeline Halfbright being upset, and being outspoken about doctors looking inside his mouth, among other things (I guess doctors gazing inside his mouth was a form of torture also). I only bring this up because,we have been known to jest about the left’s love affair with terrorist and tyrants, and so often their actions make the joke become more fact than fiction.
This is a tough question of ethics, and precedent. Obama is right to want to move beyond it, but his base is boxing him in. These were extraordinary circumstances and analysis in hindsight does make it nothing more than a circus.
Erasmus strikes me as a ringleader…put him in an ethical dilemma that affects him directly and I doubt his moral superiority would mean much at that point…sometimes their is no right answer…take a class in ethics and learn something.
The President who declared that his election would mean the country was coming together as one has done nothing but tear the country apart. If he seriously pursues the Bush Administration, which of course means President Bush himself, then Obambi is going to be in for a fight. I think the Republicans in Congress have finally found some backbone. I hope so anyway. I personally do not want President Bush shoved in front of some kangaroo court and tried as some kind of war criminal. It won’t be just congress that will be up in arms, it will be the silent majority of normal, decent Americans, thousands of who came out for the first Tea Party Day but there will be hundreds of thousands, if not millions more, if Obambi goes after Bush.
Nice to see the GOP starting to grow a spine, but they really need to put things the starkest terms possible. Waterboarding made it possible to prevent an attack on LA, which might have killed another 3,000 people. Ask the Obama administration to explain why they would have preferred another 3,000 dead Americans rather than have three jihadists suffer temporarily.
“How do you square the following with your view that waerboarding is not torture”
No problem whatsoever. John McCain is a politically correct whack job who enjoys currying favor with “elite” opinion. His statements on this particular issue are senseless.
Delia:
How do you square our prosecution of our enemies for waterboarding with your support for it?
Maybe we should start calling Democrats what they are, nine-teners.
The Repubs need to start fighting fire with fire, there is a true war going on in this country and the extreme left is waging it big time. Is this Obama really that left, is he stupid, is he being manipulated? Is it his own agenda to destroy the fabric of this country or am I turning into a conspiracy theorist? Any opinions or feedback out there? I’m getting really concerned. Being from Venezuela, and seeing how populists work, this Pres really scares me.
Erasumus is back to shoveling inaccurate propaganda: “It would seem much easier not to have tortured prisoners to begin with than torturing them (in violation of dozens and dozens of US laws) and trying to cover it up.”
1. The interrogation methods being called “torture” by the leftists are not torture. Making mass murderers uncomfortable while at the same time taking extreme measures to protect their physical well being is not torture – especially when hundreds or thousands of innocent lives are at stake. For the people who are charged with our protection this is called doing your duty. God bless them.
2. The reason our enemies are able to use this false torture meme as a propaganda victory is because leftists in the west are willing to act as their useful idiots in re-defining the term torture. Theses leftists care for nothing but their own ideology and power. The security of this country and the lives of the potential victims are secondary to their twisted ideology.
One last thing. I have seen all the polls, and the american people are on our side considerably on this one issue. No matter how hard the MSM has tried to spin the issue… I look at this as a show trial that could very easily bring more embarrassment to the Democrats than Republicans.
Erasmus and all you other pantywaists don’t know doo-doo about torture. Go over to Iran and let them work on you, then come back and talk about torture.
Cheers to FOX News for choosing not to broadcast Obama’s 100th day of self-indulgent excuses for ruining America.
55. The Shadow:
“How do you square our prosecution of our enemies for waterboarding with your support for it?”
~
Let’s see. Some water on the face. A bug in your pajamas… being naked without sleep.
Have you NEVER been hazed in college?
Seriously, don’t taze me, bro! ROTFL!
.
The Prophecy of Spinal Tap
Saul Alinsky’s Eleven Deadly Sins.
Sin Number Eleven*.
America is the target.
* Khalid al Mansour: “Why not just make ten louder, and make that the top number and make that a little louder?”
Saul Alinsky: “These go to eleven!”
.
I agree with steveg. This is a losing issue for the Democrats leadership in Congress. These interrogation methods are kid glove tactics for questioning terrorists and might provoke anger by the public that harsher methods weren’t use. Has anyone read the memos?
Geez,
All this much-ado about nothing simply shows that the current clutch of Willie Wonkers in Washington who seek self-gratification on a nightly basis, still haven’t figured out that if you want to be on the ball the next morning, its best to go to bed with boxing gloves on. Press Secretary Gibbs is a seedy example of a night under the covers with madam fivefingers.
Lets just hope all this disclosure does not back-track its way to the Vietnam era … Now, thats where you will find some genuine torture. But hey! Wait up! Wasn’t there 2 Democrat Presidents in office during those 10+ years? End of story.
To be honest, the true measure of just how this witch hunt and other Obama antics will damage the U.S. will be seen by the drop in worldwide sales of Nitrous oxide (no need for it now) and the numbers of Allies who drift away from the coalition and start to do things on their own terms and of their own volition. An example of this could just be that … not long after P.M. Rudd’s meeting with Obama (very little reported in the press) the Australian government approved the biggest increase in defence spending since WW II. You blokes must realize that OZ’s northern neighbour is the world’s largest Islamic nation and if Barry attended an Islamic school there, then we would be correct in surmising that OZ is on it’s ‘Pat Malone’.
The gloves come off?
Yeah, right. The Republicans hit like a girl (or David Frum, or whatever).
Let’s see the republicans left…leFT…LEFT!!! Obama a 25 lb brown paper bag full of shit on fire at his door. They quickly turned into the party of NO and obstructionism and the new president can do no right thing. Hmmm…I know the democrats are no angels, but the hypocrisy being displayed makes for explosive puking. The republicans have lost ALL credibility. I do not trust anything they can say at this time. People like Karl, Cheney and Rush are the true face of the republicans. Miss McCain has it right, they should just go away. Torture…that is just the tip of the iceberg of their abuses of power. Yes Mr President, release all the classified memos.
48. The Shadow:
Easily. Water-boarding was not the only method the Japanese did. The trials were not solely about water-boarding. McCain is entitled to his opinion, as were the judges back then, however, it is very dishonest on your part, and spits in the face of the documented Japanese brutality, to exploit these trials to promote your agenda against the water-boarding of present day known terrorists. The Rape of Nanking comes to mind.
Secondly, Let me know when KSM, Osama Bin Laben, and the other terroist leaderships sign the Geneva Conventions.
Weenie NRCCGOP (Nelson Rockefeller Country Club Repubs)fighting for us?
GEEEEEZ! Bush and Cheney didn’t even speak up when they had the power!
Screw ‘em.
#58 Dave…Exactly, the left were useful idiots for the Stalinist and now the jihadist.
neverquit – You seem to miss the point. We are a nation of laws. By your analogy, we should use all the forms of torture because our enemy did not sign the Geneva Convention.
Delia:
As usual, you did not answer the question. I wonder if your children were waterboarded by Japanese during world war 2, if you would have considered it OK, or torture
71. The Shadow:
I got the point entirely. You wish to equate water-boarding with other forms of torture. That is a dishonest argument to make on your part.
I made no analogy what so ever. I stated a fact that you cannot refute.
We are indeed a nation of laws, do you specialize in making statements of the obvious? Again, the Japanese committed all kinds of atrocities, you seem to want to focus on, and make those trials all about the water-boarding. That is what is called a half truth, and very dishonest on your part. I state a fact about the GC’s that you cannot refute, therefore you make up a lie about an analogy I did not make.
Gloves come off? From the GOP? Really?
These are the people that show up to a gun-fight with a pocket knife. The GOP doesn’t know how to fight. President Bush didn’t (and still doesn’t) know how to fight. Every time I see one of these GOP talking heads on TV being interviewed about the complete obvious dishonesty of the party on the left, they are so polite, “My friend across the aisle” or “They are mistaken about…”. Common! The GOP won’t take the gloves off until they’re willing to go out there and say it like it is, call the left a bunch of liars and traitors.
I’m afraid the GOP is destined for the trash bin of history, going silently into the night.
repudiates are still playing the whoremunger.. i mean war mungers they are. still trying to make sense out of nonsense. we had 8 years and more to come of those idiots. It’s bad we have a orgasnizer who will be wiping thir sh@#*t for a while. you don’t like the the administration, go move to your own redneck country!
72. The Shadow:
If the CIA captured a high level terrorist that was openly bragging about an imminent attack on a shopping mall in the near future, and your daughter worked in a shopping mall, and in a smug and arrogant manner the terrorist also told you he will never tell you when, where or who will conduct the act because he has the protections of the Bill of Rights, no matter how nicely you treat him and ask him, if you honestly tell me that you would not OK water-boarding, sleep depriving, or other non-lethal modes, to this person, then you’re just like those zebras on the plains of Africa, who will thoughtlessly put their heads back down into the grass after seeing their own murdered by the Lions.
I will not do that. I’m the kind of zebra who will run over and try to kick the lions in the face, but that’s just me.
In hindsight, maybe we should not have waterboarded that jihadist. Then the attack on LA would have gone through. Perhaps that would have woken up those smug, elitist, Hollywood morons when they see their backyard go up in flames and thousands of their fellow Californians immolated.
Unfortunately, it’s over. There is nothing left to do but sit back and wait for the next attack. Obozo is successfully dismantling the whole apparatus that protected us from terrorist attacks, and kissing the butts of our enemies the world over, while alienating our allies. We won’t even acknowledge the threat of Islamic terrorism, I mean, man-caused disasters. In the Obama newspeak, a terrorist is a white man with a Ron Paul bumper sticker who is a returning vet and upset with the direction his country is taking. He’ll be detained and interrogated faster than a stark raving mad jihadist with a suitcase nuke.
The sheep and their MSM who still swoon for Obozo, and the demonrats whose eternal hatred of Bush trumps the will to protect this country may finally wake up when a million Americans get killed in a coming terror attack. We can only hope that they see the blood on their own hands.
74.rocketeer
I’m afraid that your observations have much truth in them!….we don’t know how much yet.
The building resistence from the general public today (the tea parties only a portion of that)is not primarily identified as Republican. It’s “the people” who are getting mad. And it’s about time.
If the Republican party leadership wants to take care of business here, that would be amazing and timely and much more efficient than having to build something from the ground up to save the nation.
Do they have the conscience and personal courage to do it? Or are they concerned about having their opponents like them after it’s over?
A poll released today indicated that 62% of Americans are against the so called ‘Truth Commission’. I say bring it on.
This has only further enhanced my opinion of the extreme bias in the MSM.
77. Trainwreck: says In hindsight, maybe we should not have waterboarded that jihadist. Then the attack on LA would have gone through.
One problem: The supposed LA threat was known six months before the waterboarding began.
Conservatives? PFFT! Bring em on!
As a vet. we are told to hold out as long as you can if you are ever captured. Then you try and give the enemy any bogus infor. that you can get away with. As a vet I feel for all the vet the were capture during ww2, and was told that it was not torture. It had to be done for the security of the home land or for the emperor. Because we are America we are suppose to stand for something. But instead we decide to act like the enemy. Because of what they did to us on 911. It is not about us looking weak as a nation. As so many people try to make it seem. We did not need torture to go to Afghanistan,and we did not look weak by any mean. Now I believe it is time to show the world that America is a country of freedom. That we are our brothers keeper and we do not have to convert to tactic that were used against us during WW11 (The Tokyo war crimes Trials). Lets ask ourselves was it only torture because it was done to Americans.
Sean Hannity, we have your waterboard ready. Families of our Troops are waiting for their charity. Mister Hannity. Paging Mister Hannity. Your charity opportunity is ready. Nothing to worry about, just a little water on your face. Mister Hannity. It’s just like a dunk tank at the county fair. Honest. Paging Mister Hannity. Your dunk tank is ready. It’s just a little spritz. Little more than a squirt gun, really. Mister Hannity. Paging quintessential conservative chickenhawk. Paging All talkity. Mister Smoke Screen. Paging Uber Wimp. We have your waterboard ready.
Classic cowardice from the right.
I hear that the DemocRATS are sending their man, Sandy Berger over to the National Archives to to sort through Cheney’s CIA memo’s. He’s wearing parachute pants last worn by MC Hammer though…..odd.
Wow! Let’s all get it out of our systems here. Some of you scare me to death. Yeah, I’m a Proud Liberal Pro-Choice Democrat. I’m not sure of anything our government does regardless of what party is in power. The problem as I see it is not just what has happened in the last 20 years but what has happened over many decades of our manipulation of other countries like a game of Chess. We have used these other countries to fight with the Russians like little pawns with no regard to the deaths these wars bring to the thousands of innocent people killed in the process. Is it any wonder these countries hate us? We have made our bed and now we are forced to sleep in it. We sat here safe and protected (until 9/11) while our governments fill the opposition with weapons to fight our enimies on mideastern soil. September 11th 2001 is an example of what these people live with on a daily basis. They have watched their homes and families being blown to pieces, litteraly, perhaps that is considered torture in their eyes. How would you feel if these wars were being fought here in the US. OH, NO NOT HERE! I know it’s hard to feel simpaty for anyone other than the USA. After all we are never wrong.
After eight years of watching the Republicans run the country, and of course in my opinion not doing a real good job. I think it’s time to give the other guy a swing at it.
My President has been in office for 100 days. It’s amazing how much credit some of you are giving him in such a short time. How easily we forget that much of the problems we are experiencing today were brought on us by the Bush administration, not the Obama administration of the last 100 days. If Bush and Cheney indeed are found guilty of breaking the law they should be punished for it. I’m Proud of My President. It was Bush and Cheney that were instramental in getting him ELECTED NOT APPOINTED, I thank them for that. Maybe now a Woman can have sovereignty over her own body and destiny.
Anybody catch Shep smith? “We don’t torture, this America and we don’t f**king torture. ”
Amazing how the right-wing-conservatives, who claim to be the moral backbone of our society is the first to defend torture. Disgusting hypocrits. I don’t care if they’re chopping the heads off girl scouts, we decide how we behave. Justifying acts of torture because of what they did? So you all are willing to allow Islamic Terrorist to change your moral behavior? Sorry, but what they do is not justification of what we do.
I enjoy coming to this site to see what the wingnuts are saying and y’all don’t disappoint.
neverquit:
The only place in the world water boarding isn’t considered torture is in the minds Bybee, Bush and Cheney. And all the puppets that believe them.
The Democrats’ hyperventilation over “torture” is the worst sort of hypocrisy. They are endangering the lives of American citizens, and betraying their oaths to uphold and defend the Constitution and people of this nation, by allowing the hysteria to continue.
The Bush Administration did everything it was required to do. It sought, and received, a legal opinion that its proposed actions would be legal. It briefed senior members of both parties in Congress, who raised no objections. If Democrats truly believed waterboarding to be torture, then they had a duty to object at that time; they did not. Pelosi’s argument that she didn’t believe the techniques would be used is laughable; if her memory is that poor, then she should retire before she embarrasses herself further.
The President and Congress of today are within their rights to set a higher bar for interrogation methods than the President and Congress of 2002, but they are wrong to persecute those who acted according to the law as it was understood at the time.
I am glad that Republicans are standing up and speaking up for the adult population of this country, and those who perform difficult and dangerous work on our behalf.
“It took mere 8 years since the horrible death of our citizens in N.Y.C. and those who facilitated the carnage like Gorelick and her ilk feverishly working on the recreation of the same conditions that made terrorism possible…they are now in the driver seat making huge money.”
Sure – why blame Bush – the guy in charge – when we can blame anyone else but.. it’s not like Georgie got a memo indicating that Bin laden planned to use commuter jets as weapons…
Oh, wait a minute…
“Why is it that reactionary right wingers can so easily justify the impeachment of a sitting Democratic president over an affair with an intern, while simultaneously screaming bloody murder at the mere mention of investigation of a Republican administration that tortured and killed civilians, many of whom were unrelated to any terrorist act or organization?”
because they’re bad Americans..
“Aren’t today’s Muslim extremists as dangerous as Hitler’s thugs?
More so, for four reasons. They are motivated by religious zealotry. Their ambition is camoflauged by religion. The threat they pose is underestimated. This is the nuclear age.”
Your cowardice is showing: it takes a special type of coward to compare rag-tag goatherders with no military, airforce, navy, research abilites, weapons building abilites – or anything, to say these guys are worse than Hitler. Case in point: Hitler conquered Much of Eastern and Western Europe in a few years – “radical Islam” – for its noise concerning Israel, has only watched the jewsih state grow and has never been able to conquer anything…But go hide under the bed with the other little girls…
Ah, Jennifer Rubin and her brilliant analysis – you see when the Party of No and Torture (not No Torture – that’s the other guys) decided to offer not a single vote towards the stimulus – in fact, not a single vote towards anything – that was just pattycakes – but NOW the gloves are coming off – and with Arlen Specter trading sides – well, those Republicans – now they’re REALLY mad – why, i bet they’ll just HOLD their breath until they turn Blue…
that’s about all they got…
Warpublican, who do you think bought so much ammo the shelves are empty? I had figured the shooting wouldn’t start until late summer. I might be off a tad.
Yes, Specter made it official after all these years. Good riddance. I expect him to vote more conservative now that he is a Democrat. As far as the 60 goes, how many rifle shots away from 50 is that?
Republicans will continue to loose members and Senators like Specter as long as they fight for the rich and wealthy corporate greedy and radical religous right. I was raised catholic I was baptised, confirmed and married in a catholic church. When religion began to use tax free donations to build churches that flaunted the riches of a congregation, bigger and better than the “other” churches and also used that money to pay for politicians that supported their views and agenda to get elected. They lost me forever, what ever happened to the Love thy Brother, Do Unto Others as You would have done to You? The interference of religion on the government is why people are turning away from religion and the republican party that has embraced them in an attempt to win elections. The republican party and the hypocrite religious right will slowly die and bury themselves as long as they continue to fight womens right to abort an unplanned pregnancy or stand against GLBT – Gay, Lesbian, Bi-sexual or Transgender americans. These are issues of a personal nature and using the law and government to enforce religious hypothesis is wrong. If women want men to rule every aspect of your life move to Iran or go live with the Taliban or simply support your local church or Republican Party.
We are so spoiled, we have no idea what it’s like. Sadly, we have lost the ability to show empathy for our fellow human beings.
Religion has become a qualification for elected office, take Mitt Romney as an example, he would have won the RNC nomination if he had been a christian instead of a mormon and might even have had a chance at winning the presidency (except that Bush had already ruined the republican parties chance at re-election). Each religion believes they are the “Only” religion “The True Religion” all others become a “Cult” or “False” they foster intolerance and hate, for anyone that doesn’t believe as they do, fabricate false science and outright lie, if it will propagate their ideology this is why religion is so dangerous. Sadly far to many people believe this bag of lies. Because the church wouldn’t lie, they wouldn’t cover the truth, never.. (like the molestation of hundreds of boys by preists hiding their shame of being a gay man behind the cloth. Ironic isn’t it that the church that caused that shame and disgrace should provide the cover for a man or a woman, (my Aunt the ex-nun) that could not stomach having a sexual relationship with a women or a man that they would prefer to never have a sexual relationship, EVER. That’s Poetic Justice.) The truth and the science based on facts will prove all gods are false and were simply a means of population control using fear implimented by scolars of centuries past.
Republicans continue to play to the far right, Please carry on. Let Rush Limbaugh, Dick Cheney, and Bill O’Reily be your spokesmen. I’m looking forward to winning elections with the Democratic party for the next 20 years just like my sister-in-law Donna predicted when Bush was appointed in 2004. But listen, what ever you do don’t listen to Megan McCain…she’s an airhead, really she is!
typos_R_us = violent right wing radical. DHS should be notified, we found him.
Paging Mister Hannity. Based on your commitment we are holding resources available for your waterboarding. Mister Hannity. Paging Sean Hannity. Perhaps someone here, someone not hiding from themselves, is willing to take Mister Hannity’s place. Anyone? Waterboarding here. We got your waterboard ready. Anyone? Paging Mister Hannity. Nothing more than a little enhanced interrogation. No harm will come to you. No coma involved. Call it a win-win! Anyone? Any Hannity out there?
Where’d everybody go?
#84 Sassy said: “We have used these other countries to fight with the Russians like little pawns with no regard to the deaths these wars bring to the thousands of innocent people killed in the process. Is it any wonder these countries hate us? We have made our bed and now we are forced to sleep in it.”
So, perhaps we should have left them to the Soviets. Spoken like a true socialist, villianize America for fighting against the spread of Communism. Typical over-simplification (and revision) of the historical record.
#86 – whitey said : “The only place in the world water boarding isn’t considered torture is in the minds Bybee, Bush and Cheney. And all the puppets that believe them.”
It appears to me that most Obama supporters have forgotten what it takes in this world to survive. Many Americans seem to have forgotten that terrorists hated Clinton as much as Bush. That’s why WTC-1 happened, that’s why our embassies and naval ships were bombed under his watch, pure hatred. (I am not a Clinton basher) Americans have forgotten that many will kill just for the sport of it……If I have to water-board a jihadi or two, or deprive them of sleep now and again, to protect America from those who hate us for a myriad of reasons, whatever those may be, so be it….
“It is not a just thing that all that was won in poverty should be lost in prosperity”.
“If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”
Samuel Adams(1776), was known as the “Father of the American Revolution.”
I am repulsed by the lack of backbone displayed here by Obama, and posters on this board…..And those of you who are portraying the Tokyo Trials as some kind of example are dishonest at best regarding the crimes of the Japanese. Go read about the Rape of Nanking, then get back to me if you really feel the primary issue with Japanese Torture was water-boarding.
Wow! The Kos Kiddies have really got their panties in a bunch tonight.
How ’bout that air show today?
neverquit:
Lack of backbone describes you. You’re a coward and you have no principle. America is the land of the free, home of the brave. We stand for the rights of men (and women). That is who we are, or at least who we used to claim to be. We don’t torture and we condemn those that do. It goes against who we are as a people and what we represent. YOU and the other cowards, who because of their fears, think that the end justifies the means. You think it’s OK to sacrifice our principles for security. That’s a coward.
#97 Neverquit…The Tokyo trials? Typical left-wing claptrap.
These anti-torture idiots don’t know what real torture is.Send these liberals down the road.
Sassy you must have hated Christ because He said He was the only way to Heaven (John 14 v 6) Also Sassy what verese in the bible make it right wing? I’ve always wondered when the leftists refer to right wing Christians who use the bible as their guide what verses make it right wing? Jesus when alive was concerned with ones souls and never did attack the Roman government because He knew our seventy to ninety years means nothing to eternity. Sassy if you blame fallen priests or other hypocrytes for not following Christ you will be in big trouble on that great day of judgement. The Lord won’t care how you feel about hypocrytes but He will say “what did you do in your relationship with me”? I fear that as we face the last days we will see more plagues, earthquakes, wars and more hatred of between the races, just go read Mathew ch. 24. I don’t think things will be better and folks like you will for Christains to go underground because of the worldwide hatred of them. I hope you change your mind for your sake.
some ” thinking points” for the trolls ;”god grants liberty only to those who love it and are always ready to defend it”- daniel webster. “only the dead have seen the end of war”- plato. “in war there is no substitute for victory” -general douglas macarthur. ” war is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. the decayed and degraded state of mind that thinks nothing is worth fighting for is far worse” – john stuart mill. my advice to them is; ” stop blogging and read some books” ” because “the only thing new in this world is the history you don’t know”- harry truman.
102. Gary Thorington: What will god say to the Dalai Lama?
101 Will . . . These anti-torture idiots don’t know what real torture is
Perhaps we should ask Sean Hannity.
Sheesh, the Lord will probably ask the Dalai Lama on why he rejected Him in all his life and even though the Lord had sent messengers telling the Lama that He was the only way to Heaven. Sorry to say anyone on earth who rejects Christ will not make it to heaven but I know many will disagree. Remember I didn’t write the bible and those passages where Jesus says He is the only way is pretty clear.
106 Is Joseph Smith one of those messengers? If not, is Mitt Romney going to hell? How about Mark Levin? He’s a Jew, is he going to hell?
Hawkeye . . . some food for sheep . . .
“I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.”
“Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies.”
“Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites.”
“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes”
“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”
“In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own”
“Where the preamble [of the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom] declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting the words “Jesus Christ,” so that it should read, “A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.”
All Thomas Jefferson.
Current polling data trumpeted by the left is almost completely irrelevant- a lot of people still don’t have any clue what Obama’s doing to the country, with his naive diplomacy and reckless print-money spending.
But rest-assured that they’ll come out-of-the-ether quick when we get humiliated overseas, the dollar tanks, inflation hits 10%, or a desperate Rezko/Blago sing to prosecutors about their former pal Barack… who’s closet is surely chock-full o’ bones.
Time is simply on the GOP’s side: neither Obama’s big-government spending nor his Carter-esque foreign policy based on appeasement have any precedent of success… anywhere…. ever.
And the press can’t just do stories on his puppy-vetting process and how he likes to play basketball for four years… can they?
Obama hasn’t been tested overseas, nor has he yet gotten to the hard part domestically: he’s yet to raise taxes, nationalize healthcare, or provide mass amnesty for illegal immigrants. He hasn’t closed down the car companies he now runs and he has not yet forced a 30+ % jump in utility bills and myriad other products with his cap-and-trade stealth-tax schemes. And these are all on the Obama agenda.
Most likely, when all their ill-advised pork-n-welfare spending fails to produce real economic gains, the Democrats face a bloodbath in 2010-
And by 2012? People will wince at the very mention of the name “Obama”-
Reading the posts of the Soros children here gives me hope. That much stupidity and blindness can be used against them by our side. Obama’s plans can not work. They never do. Socialism fails mankind every time it is tried. Freedom and liberty created an imperfect nation, but still the best one on the planet by far. Weakness, apologizing to thugs, bowing to a Muslim King, increasing deficits, lying to us, releasing classified information, and more simply make Obama a pathetic traitor to his own country. I hope the Democrats enjoy their majority because it has removed any blame from conservatives, and their failures hang around their necks alone.
to sheesh, i do believe you missed my point, for i was speaking of a battle for liberty, not of a particular name for god.