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	<title>Comments on: Goldstone Agonistes</title>
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		<title>By: John  "birther" Samford</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/goldstone-agonistes/#comment-432596</link>
		<dc:creator>John  "birther" Samford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:08:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;My understanding is that Goldstone looked into whether Israel followed the rules of war. I think he had some success in showing Israel did not follow those rules in many cases.&quot;

There are no &quot;rules of war&quot;.  It&#039;s a common mis-perception.
The closest thing is the Geneva Conventions.  Once there was a thing called the Hague Conventions.

http://www.answers.com/topic/hague-conferences

{snipped}
Series of international agreements signed at The Hague (1899, 1907). The first conference was requested by Russia to discuss rules to limit warfare and attempt arms limitations. Twenty-six countries attended and approved several proposed conventions, including prohibition of the use of asphyxiating gases (not renewed in 1907) and creation of a Permanent Court of Arbitration. The 1907 meeting, called by Theodore Roosevelt, was attended by 44 countries and also had arms limitation as a goal, which again went unmet. &quot;

Most of the governments that were there no longer exist.  Which is an interesting fact of international peace treaties.

GENEVA CONVENTIONS;

http://www.answers.com/topic/geneva-conventions

{snipped}
&quot;One of a series of agreements first formulated at an international convention held in Geneva, Switzerland, in 1864, establishing rules for the treatment of prisoners of war, the sick, and the wounded.&quot;

The GC ( Geneva Conventions) covers various aspects of war.  To call them the rules of war is misleading at best, duplicity at worst.
The real problem is there are so many of the GC&#039;s.  A &quot;war crime&quot; depends on which version you are talking about.  In the latest version (1977 IIRC) anything human or reasonably close is considered a &quot;protected person&quot;.  In the 1948 version, which is the one Israel and the USA ratified, guerrillas, insurgents, &quot;freedom fighters&quot;, etc. are NOT covered by the GC, as they were not covered by ANY &#039;laws of warfare&#039; until the GC V (1977).  That is why the USA, Isreal and several other nations wouldn&#039;t get onboard with it.  Before GC V, you could do anything you wanted with captured terrorists.  Hang &#039;em, shoot &#039;em, broil &#039;em, stir fry &#039;em, what ever.  SOP for guerrillas was either hanging or shooting depending on the available bullet to rope ratio.
What Goldthing was trying to do is charge Israel under laws that didn&#039;t apply to Israel.  So if Israel had participated, it would have indirectly acknowledged it was bound by a treaty it didn&#039;t sign.  Ancient legal principal.  If you agree to a trial, you agree to the law.  It was a legal trap, one that failed.
Remember, under a modern legal system involving a jury, the law is on trial in EVER case.  Laws can be and are struck down.  International Law doesn&#039;t use juries which makes the whole concept of international law suspect.
The difference between law and thugs with guns is a jury.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;My understanding is that Goldstone looked into whether Israel followed the rules of war. I think he had some success in showing Israel did not follow those rules in many cases.&#8221;</p>
<p>There are no &#8220;rules of war&#8221;.  It&#8217;s a common mis-perception.<br />
The closest thing is the Geneva Conventions.  Once there was a thing called the Hague Conventions.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.answers.com/topic/hague-conferences" rel="nofollow">http://www.answers.com/topic/hague-conferences</a></p>
<p>{snipped}<br />
Series of international agreements signed at The Hague (1899, 1907). The first conference was requested by Russia to discuss rules to limit warfare and attempt arms limitations. Twenty-six countries attended and approved several proposed conventions, including prohibition of the use of asphyxiating gases (not renewed in 1907) and creation of a Permanent Court of Arbitration. The 1907 meeting, called by Theodore Roosevelt, was attended by 44 countries and also had arms limitation as a goal, which again went unmet. &#8221;</p>
<p>Most of the governments that were there no longer exist.  Which is an interesting fact of international peace treaties.</p>
<p>GENEVA CONVENTIONS;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.answers.com/topic/geneva-conventions" rel="nofollow">http://www.answers.com/topic/geneva-conventions</a></p>
<p>{snipped}<br />
&#8220;One of a series of agreements first formulated at an international convention held in Geneva, Switzerland, in 1864, establishing rules for the treatment of prisoners of war, the sick, and the wounded.&#8221;</p>
<p>The GC ( Geneva Conventions) covers various aspects of war.  To call them the rules of war is misleading at best, duplicity at worst.<br />
The real problem is there are so many of the GC&#8217;s.  A &#8220;war crime&#8221; depends on which version you are talking about.  In the latest version (1977 IIRC) anything human or reasonably close is considered a &#8220;protected person&#8221;.  In the 1948 version, which is the one Israel and the USA ratified, guerrillas, insurgents, &#8220;freedom fighters&#8221;, etc. are NOT covered by the GC, as they were not covered by ANY &#8216;laws of warfare&#8217; until the GC V (1977).  That is why the USA, Isreal and several other nations wouldn&#8217;t get onboard with it.  Before GC V, you could do anything you wanted with captured terrorists.  Hang &#8216;em, shoot &#8216;em, broil &#8216;em, stir fry &#8216;em, what ever.  SOP for guerrillas was either hanging or shooting depending on the available bullet to rope ratio.<br />
What Goldthing was trying to do is charge Israel under laws that didn&#8217;t apply to Israel.  So if Israel had participated, it would have indirectly acknowledged it was bound by a treaty it didn&#8217;t sign.  Ancient legal principal.  If you agree to a trial, you agree to the law.  It was a legal trap, one that failed.<br />
Remember, under a modern legal system involving a jury, the law is on trial in EVER case.  Laws can be and are struck down.  International Law doesn&#8217;t use juries which makes the whole concept of international law suspect.<br />
The difference between law and thugs with guns is a jury.</p>
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		<title>By: Trainwreck</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/goldstone-agonistes/#comment-431831</link>
		<dc:creator>Trainwreck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:03:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=70192#comment-431831</guid>
		<description>In the new world order:
To defend yourself against terrorist attacks is a crime against humanity.
To criticize radical Islamists is hate speech, and punishable by law in most of Europe.
To investigate Muslims acting suspiciously (eg, flying imams case) is profiling and bigotry.

In the new world order, the only acceptable way to remember 9/11 is:
http://awolcivilization.com/?p=1001</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the new world order:<br />
To defend yourself against terrorist attacks is a crime against humanity.<br />
To criticize radical Islamists is hate speech, and punishable by law in most of Europe.<br />
To investigate Muslims acting suspiciously (eg, flying imams case) is profiling and bigotry.</p>
<p>In the new world order, the only acceptable way to remember 9/11 is:<br />
<a href="http://awolcivilization.com/?p=1001" rel="nofollow">http://awolcivilization.com/?p=1001</a></p>
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		<title>By: w chase</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/goldstone-agonistes/#comment-431819</link>
		<dc:creator>w chase</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:50:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=70192#comment-431819</guid>
		<description>I watched this interview by Bill Moyers of Gladstone this weekend. He is actually looking for  critics who want to challenge his specific findings. He agrees that historically the UN Human RIghts Commission has biased toward Israel. They had to toe the line before he would accept the task. He initially refused because the language was so biased against Israel. 

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/index-flash.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I watched this interview by Bill Moyers of Gladstone this weekend. He is actually looking for  critics who want to challenge his specific findings. He agrees that historically the UN Human RIghts Commission has biased toward Israel. They had to toe the line before he would accept the task. He initially refused because the language was so biased against Israel. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/index-flash.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/index-flash.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: w chase</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/goldstone-agonistes/#comment-431778</link>
		<dc:creator>w chase</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:17:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I don&#039;t recall Goldstone questioning the legitimacy of Israel taking military action against Hamas in Gaza. Personally, I don&#039;t think Israel could continue to sit back and do nothing while Hamas bombed it. I also expect some collateral damage in war including the death of civilians.  My understanding is that Goldstone looked into whether Israel followed the rules of war. I think he had some success in showing Israel did not follow those rules in many cases. He thinks that Israel ought to look into that and hold itself accountable. We expect this of the US in Afghanistan and Iraq whenever civlilians die after military actions. We investigate and we apologize.  Why should we expect less of Israel? It will give them more legitimacy in the world as a democracy that follows international laws in war, not prevent them from defending themselves and render tham somehow weaker.  And if you don&#039;t believe that wars should have rules, by that logic,  Hamas should be able to bomb civilian targets too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t recall Goldstone questioning the legitimacy of Israel taking military action against Hamas in Gaza. Personally, I don&#8217;t think Israel could continue to sit back and do nothing while Hamas bombed it. I also expect some collateral damage in war including the death of civilians.  My understanding is that Goldstone looked into whether Israel followed the rules of war. I think he had some success in showing Israel did not follow those rules in many cases. He thinks that Israel ought to look into that and hold itself accountable. We expect this of the US in Afghanistan and Iraq whenever civlilians die after military actions. We investigate and we apologize.  Why should we expect less of Israel? It will give them more legitimacy in the world as a democracy that follows international laws in war, not prevent them from defending themselves and render tham somehow weaker.  And if you don&#8217;t believe that wars should have rules, by that logic,  Hamas should be able to bomb civilian targets too.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack in Silver Spring</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/goldstone-agonistes/#comment-431319</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack in Silver Spring</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 22:28:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=70192#comment-431319</guid>
		<description>David -

I just want to point out what a clever stroke it was for the anti-Israel crew to have Goldstone appointed to investigate Israel for war crimes.  For them his appointment was a win-win appointment, and that&#039;s because he&#039;s Jewish (or at leas his mother was).  The anti-Israel crew&#039;s calculus would be this way: If he exonerates Israel for war crimes, we can say: What do you expect, he&#039;s Jewish; then we can demand that someone who is neutral do a real investigation -- and that would keep the story alive yet longer.  On the other hand, if he indicts Israel for war crimes, we can say: You see how heinous Israel is, even a Jew finds her guilty of war crimes.

Goldstone, being the useful idiot he was, played out their second scenario.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David -</p>
<p>I just want to point out what a clever stroke it was for the anti-Israel crew to have Goldstone appointed to investigate Israel for war crimes.  For them his appointment was a win-win appointment, and that&#8217;s because he&#8217;s Jewish (or at leas his mother was).  The anti-Israel crew&#8217;s calculus would be this way: If he exonerates Israel for war crimes, we can say: What do you expect, he&#8217;s Jewish; then we can demand that someone who is neutral do a real investigation &#8212; and that would keep the story alive yet longer.  On the other hand, if he indicts Israel for war crimes, we can say: You see how heinous Israel is, even a Jew finds her guilty of war crimes.</p>
<p>Goldstone, being the useful idiot he was, played out their second scenario.</p>
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		<title>By: John  "birther" Samford</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/goldstone-agonistes/#comment-431304</link>
		<dc:creator>John  "birther" Samford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 22:08:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=70192#comment-431304</guid>
		<description>#19 W,Chase, actually I did at post #3.
You either skipped it, missed it, or have substandard reading skills.  Is American/English a second language?
Let me try again with simpler words.
For something (anything) to be illegal, it has to break a law.  With me so far?
Goldstien....er. Gold scum... ehrr ..Goldstones did not read the UN charter.
If he had he would have found the section that allows EVERY UN member the right of self defense.  So to argue Israel committed a crime ( broke a law), you have to argue that Israel has no right of self defense, which it plainly does as a member of the General Assembly.  Or you have to argue that shooting rockets in towns and villages isn&#039;t a nattack.  Good luck there.

I posted a link to the UN Charter and snipped the relevant section and pasted it.  Now I have brought that to you attention.  I cannot force you to read it and wouldn&#039;t if I could.  I have never found profit in educating fools.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#19 W,Chase, actually I did at post #3.<br />
You either skipped it, missed it, or have substandard reading skills.  Is American/English a second language?<br />
Let me try again with simpler words.<br />
For something (anything) to be illegal, it has to break a law.  With me so far?<br />
Goldstien&#8230;.er. Gold scum&#8230; ehrr ..Goldstones did not read the UN charter.<br />
If he had he would have found the section that allows EVERY UN member the right of self defense.  So to argue Israel committed a crime ( broke a law), you have to argue that Israel has no right of self defense, which it plainly does as a member of the General Assembly.  Or you have to argue that shooting rockets in towns and villages isn&#8217;t a nattack.  Good luck there.</p>
<p>I posted a link to the UN Charter and snipped the relevant section and pasted it.  Now I have brought that to you attention.  I cannot force you to read it and wouldn&#8217;t if I could.  I have never found profit in educating fools.</p>
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		<title>By: Ruvy</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/goldstone-agonistes/#comment-431267</link>
		<dc:creator>Ruvy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 21:14:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=70192#comment-431267</guid>
		<description>Fnord,

I love guys like you.  You make all my arguments for me, though you do not realize it at all.

Looking at all this through MY lens, you Americans, and your idiots in Washington - be they Democratic or Republican, &quot;liberal&quot; or &quot;conservative&quot; - are the LIABILITY.  It is WE who need to ditch YOU.  Let&#039;s start with the small stuff.

Our native made rifles are better than the M16&#039;s your Defense Department would &quot;sell&quot; us.  They don&#039;t jam, they use the same ammo, and they are smaller and more compact, making them easier to carry - even in mud.

Our soldiers come from a society where things are usually lacking.  This means they have to be creative and have to act on the spot.  They need to improvise merely to survive.  That means they perform better in the field.

Say what you will about the Turks.  They are folks who committed genocide, and are unwilling to own up to that fact.  Even the lousy Germans and Austrians will own to the fact that they committed genocide (however resentfully).  These are not the kind of folks I would want to watch &lt;i&gt;my&lt;/i&gt; back, and frankly you Americans are welcome to them.  When they decide &lt;i&gt;you&lt;/i&gt; are liabilities, they&#039;ll stab &lt;i&gt;you&lt;/i&gt; in the back - just like you Americans have back-stabbed countless trusting &quot;allies&quot; (ask the Gruzini, the Georgians).

YOU are in hock to the Chicoms, the Russians, the Arabs and other lovelies.  THEY are your masters, unless you are willing to nuke them.  They call the tune and you play.  Obama is just the second of many presidents who will lead you down the humiliating path to irrelevance in the world economy.  

Let&#039;s amplify that point just a bit.  At this point, you have what is called a &quot;consumer&quot; economy.  This means that folks all over the world work for slave wages and you Americans consume what they produce - overspending like drunk pigs in a bar.  At some point the leaders of the countries whose people work for slave wages will decide that they don&#039;t need the &quot;consumer&quot; anymore - particularly when your money starts losing its value.  That&#039;s when you Americans go under the bus, and learn to consume a whole lot less - because nobody will sell to a bankrupt with bad money.

Now, Fnord, you still with me here?  In the end, the only &quot;assets&quot; you have are your nukes.  With those nukes, you can try to intimidate anybody - until they think it all through.  The killer radiation the use of those nukes creates eventually gets back to Hawaii, San Francisco, LA, Seattle; if there is enough of it, it gets to Minneapolis, Chicago, New York, Philly, Boston....  Are you getting the picture?  You use your nukes to get rid of your creditors - but you die of radiation poisoning as a result.  You are debt-free - and dead.

So much for the value of your nukes.

Do you now see why you Americans are a liability?   Do you see why we need to eventually ditch you?  The Turks probably already have figured this out.  So have the Russians, the Chinese, the Persians, even the Arabs.  Do youseriously think such pathetic BS like &quot;fellow western democracies&quot; will keep Israeli leaders from reaching the inevitable conclusions?

So, in not too long a time, you guys, who produce only movies these days, go under the bus.

It&#039;s a damned shame.  When I was a kid, America was the richest, and greatest nation on the planet.  I was proud to live in America.  Now pfffftt....  At least I don&#039;t live there anymore.

Go ahead, buddy up to the &lt;i&gt;Halvásh&lt;/i&gt; (Turks), Fnord.  It is you who will be eating &lt;i&gt;Halvá&lt;/i&gt; (a Turkish food served to mourners) in the end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fnord,</p>
<p>I love guys like you.  You make all my arguments for me, though you do not realize it at all.</p>
<p>Looking at all this through MY lens, you Americans, and your idiots in Washington &#8211; be they Democratic or Republican, &#8220;liberal&#8221; or &#8220;conservative&#8221; &#8211; are the LIABILITY.  It is WE who need to ditch YOU.  Let&#8217;s start with the small stuff.</p>
<p>Our native made rifles are better than the M16&#8242;s your Defense Department would &#8220;sell&#8221; us.  They don&#8217;t jam, they use the same ammo, and they are smaller and more compact, making them easier to carry &#8211; even in mud.</p>
<p>Our soldiers come from a society where things are usually lacking.  This means they have to be creative and have to act on the spot.  They need to improvise merely to survive.  That means they perform better in the field.</p>
<p>Say what you will about the Turks.  They are folks who committed genocide, and are unwilling to own up to that fact.  Even the lousy Germans and Austrians will own to the fact that they committed genocide (however resentfully).  These are not the kind of folks I would want to watch <i>my</i> back, and frankly you Americans are welcome to them.  When they decide <i>you</i> are liabilities, they&#8217;ll stab <i>you</i> in the back &#8211; just like you Americans have back-stabbed countless trusting &#8220;allies&#8221; (ask the Gruzini, the Georgians).</p>
<p>YOU are in hock to the Chicoms, the Russians, the Arabs and other lovelies.  THEY are your masters, unless you are willing to nuke them.  They call the tune and you play.  Obama is just the second of many presidents who will lead you down the humiliating path to irrelevance in the world economy.  </p>
<p>Let&#8217;s amplify that point just a bit.  At this point, you have what is called a &#8220;consumer&#8221; economy.  This means that folks all over the world work for slave wages and you Americans consume what they produce &#8211; overspending like drunk pigs in a bar.  At some point the leaders of the countries whose people work for slave wages will decide that they don&#8217;t need the &#8220;consumer&#8221; anymore &#8211; particularly when your money starts losing its value.  That&#8217;s when you Americans go under the bus, and learn to consume a whole lot less &#8211; because nobody will sell to a bankrupt with bad money.</p>
<p>Now, Fnord, you still with me here?  In the end, the only &#8220;assets&#8221; you have are your nukes.  With those nukes, you can try to intimidate anybody &#8211; until they think it all through.  The killer radiation the use of those nukes creates eventually gets back to Hawaii, San Francisco, LA, Seattle; if there is enough of it, it gets to Minneapolis, Chicago, New York, Philly, Boston&#8230;.  Are you getting the picture?  You use your nukes to get rid of your creditors &#8211; but you die of radiation poisoning as a result.  You are debt-free &#8211; and dead.</p>
<p>So much for the value of your nukes.</p>
<p>Do you now see why you Americans are a liability?   Do you see why we need to eventually ditch you?  The Turks probably already have figured this out.  So have the Russians, the Chinese, the Persians, even the Arabs.  Do youseriously think such pathetic BS like &#8220;fellow western democracies&#8221; will keep Israeli leaders from reaching the inevitable conclusions?</p>
<p>So, in not too long a time, you guys, who produce only movies these days, go under the bus.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a damned shame.  When I was a kid, America was the richest, and greatest nation on the planet.  I was proud to live in America.  Now pfffftt&#8230;.  At least I don&#8217;t live there anymore.</p>
<p>Go ahead, buddy up to the <i>Halvásh</i> (Turks), Fnord.  It is you who will be eating <i>Halvá</i> (a Turkish food served to mourners) in the end.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/goldstone-agonistes/#comment-431265</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 21:12:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=70192#comment-431265</guid>
		<description>If an organization uses blackmailed innocents to be terror bombers, if they fire mortars and rockets from hospitals and schools, if they use children as shields when they attack then civilians will be killed.  The question is whether it will be your civilians or theirs.  It will be a cruel choice which, but will it be a difficult one?

Oh, and I don&#039;t recognize any dictatorship, any government without free elections as a valid government.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If an organization uses blackmailed innocents to be terror bombers, if they fire mortars and rockets from hospitals and schools, if they use children as shields when they attack then civilians will be killed.  The question is whether it will be your civilians or theirs.  It will be a cruel choice which, but will it be a difficult one?</p>
<p>Oh, and I don&#8217;t recognize any dictatorship, any government without free elections as a valid government.</p>
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		<title>By: biblio44</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/goldstone-agonistes/#comment-431205</link>
		<dc:creator>biblio44</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 19:59:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=70192#comment-431205</guid>
		<description>12. Ruvy: &quot;... Kadima (read cowardly traitors) and Labor (read treasonous cowards) ...&quot;

No comment needed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>12. Ruvy: &#8220;&#8230; Kadima (read cowardly traitors) and Labor (read treasonous cowards) &#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>No comment needed.</p>
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		<title>By: Elliot</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/goldstone-agonistes/#comment-431187</link>
		<dc:creator>Elliot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 19:39:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=70192#comment-431187</guid>
		<description>Is there a reason my post,#27, was credited to &quot;anonymous&quot; ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there a reason my post,#27, was credited to &#8220;anonymous&#8221; ?</p>
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