Global Warming: Mostly Hot Air
The past few months have not been good to the still-infant discipline of climate change alarmism — that strange amalgam of pseudo-science, crystal ball gazing, and mass hysteria that was formerly known as global warming alarmism until it became apparent a few years back that the globe had in fact stopped warming, and the alarmists decided that the term “climate change” was a more effective way of describing what the rest of us call “weather.”
For around a decade now — since around the time, coincidentally, that the warming stopped — the alarmists have had things pretty much their own way, dominating the debate with ever more dramatic predictions of impending doom as man-made CO2 emissions heat up the planet, and managing for the best part to keep a lid on dissent, thanks to an unlikely, and decidedly unholy, alliance of organizations and individuals with a vested interest in upping the fear factor.
This alliance includes politicians who see climate change as a new way of persuading citizens to give them more power; corporations who play on our concern and guilt to sell us anything from eco-friendly washing powder to flex-fuel SUVs; scientists keen to get their hands on a share of the $5 billion handed out by governments and NGOs each year for climate change research; and the legions of bureaucrats employed to draw up regulations and run the globe-trotting climate conference circus.
Then there’s the lavishly funded environmental lobby; socialists who see climate change as their last, best hope of undermining free-market democracies and cutting the United States down to size; and a media which understands that “World Ends Tomorrow” stories get more viewers than “Everything Likely to Be Just Fine” stories, and whose members tend to side with the leftist, anti-American crowd.
Given such an array of talents and interests it’s a wonder any of us are still allowed to drive a car, fly in a plane, or light a barbecue. And indeed the alarmist movement has come worryingly close to achieving critical mass. Its apotheosis probably came around a couple of years ago, when Al Gore’s An Inconvenient Truth was doing the rounds, and you couldn’t open a magazine or turn on the TV without seeing photos of polar bears “stranded” on ice flows, CG renderings of famous landmarks under 30 feet of water, or interviews in which Al’s celebrity eco-buddies promised to take a long, hard look at their Learjet usage.
Not that there weren’t dissenting voices. A sizable minority of scientists has for years been disputing the basic science behind climate change alarmism (you can find a list of 400 leading “skeptics” here), arguing that the relatively small amount of warming (less than a degree Celsius) observed in the 20th century was well within the natural range of variation in the Earth’s temperature, and questioning the assumption that human activity was to blame. Climate is always changing, they pointed out, and there’s no such thing as an “ideal” temperature for the planet.
They also noted that other planets in our solar system had been experiencing similar warming, notably Mars — despite the fact that, while NASA has succeeded in sending a couple of robot probes to the red planet, they have yet to land an SUV there. Back on Earth, they presented evidence that temperature drove CO2 emissions, and not the other way round. They suggested that natural factors, such as solar activity or the oceans, might play a role in regulating the climate, and that a couple of degrees of warming would anyway have net benefits for most countries.
And even if the warming was man-made, the skeptics argued, the measures the alarmists claimed were necessary to stop the warming would have greater economic and social costs than those that would be incurred by simply adapting to changes in climate — a particularly sensible course of action in the event that the warming did turn out to be natural — while waiting for market forces to make low-carbon technologies viable. Most significantly, the skeptics pointed out that the increase in global temperatures appeared to have stopped around 1998, despite the fact that CO2 output had continued rising.
But despite persuasive evidence that the Earth’s climate was not following the alarmist script, and that proposals to “combat” the hypothetical problems were ill thought out to say the least, the skeptics have struggled to make their voices heard outside the skeptic blogs, websites, and think tanks. They’ve had their reputations rubbished, funding withheld, and been likened to Holocaust deniers. A writer for an environmentalist website famously suggested that “we should have war crimes trials for these bastards — some sort of climate Nuremberg.”
A recent survey exposed the extent of bias among news programs on the three main U.S. networks: just one-fifth of stories about climate change featured opinions that dissented from the alarmist orthodoxy. However, CNN has probably outdone them all in terms of melodramatic reporting — hardly surprising given that founder Ted Turner thinks global warming will have turned those of us who aren’t lucky enough to be dead into cannibals within 40 years. Meanwhile, in the UK the BBC has effectively seconded dozens of its journalists to the alarmist PR machine, unquestioningly reporting new findings that support the alarmist narrative, while largely ignoring research that questions the “consensus,” other than to debunk it. Reputable science journals haven’t been much kinder to the skeptics, who often find it difficult to get research published as editors take an increasingly pro-alarmist stance.
But the skeptics have refused to be silenced, and in the past year or so there have been signs the momentum is beginning to shift away from the alarmists and towards the realm of common sense. Most significantly, it’s becoming abundantly clear that the Earth is not warming in the way the alarmists have claimed it should be. In February of this year a raft of data from the leading monitoring centers showed that average global temperatures had fallen by around 0.65º C, effectively canceling out the recent 30-year warming trend and leaving the Earth’s temperature close to what the alarmists would consider “normal.” And a few weeks later the World Meteorological Association reported that global temperatures would fall again this year.
Two years of cooling do not a new ice age make, but they do raise serious doubts about the predictions made by the alarmists, and undermine the fundamental tenet of climate change theory: that global temperatures will continue to increase in line with CO2 emissions. Predictably, the alarmists have simply discounted the cooling, claiming that the long-term temperature trend is still upwards, and explaining away the fall by pointing to the cooling effects of the La Nina weather system — despite refusing to credit the warming El Nino system with contributing to 1998 being the warmest year since records began.
The alarmists also said we’d see an increase in hurricanes and other storms as the planet warmed, but this hasn’t proved to be the case, and several studies have shown no link between global temperatures and hurricane activity. Similarly, there has been no significant rise in sea levels, despite the alarmists’ predictions to the contrary. So much for the science, which, contrary to the alarmist mantra, is far from settled.
Another fact that’s become clear is that there’s next to no agreement between those national governments and NGOs that have signed up to climate change alarmism about what to do to reduce CO2 emissions. The latest talks on how to replace the failed Kyoto Protocol when it expires in 2012 broke up just last week, with negotiators agreeing on nothing except the need to have more meetings.
For all their fine words, politicians are understandably reluctant to sign up to policies that will drive jobs overseas, further inflate already high energy prices, and generally wreck their countries’ economies. Australia’s eco-friendly Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, whose election last year was hailed as a major victory by the alarmists, started backtracking on his commitments as soon as someone showed him the projected bill. Europe, however, is pressing ahead with emissions trading, or “cap and trade” schemes, despite warnings that they will result in vast windfall profits for energy companies and higher prices for consumers, while doing little to curb emissions.
In the U.S., President Bush’s latest plan for tackling climate change, while criticized by some conservatives, is a model of responsibility in comparison to polices being proposed elsewhere, combining energy efficiency regulations with greater investment in nuclear power, “clean coal,” and new energy technologies. And it’s telling that both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, who have been critical of the current administration’s lack of action on climate change, have had little to say on the subject as they campaign in coal-producing Pennsylvania, other than to talk about creating five million “clean” and “high-tech” energy jobs. It may come as news to Senators Clinton and Obama, but if America embraces renewable energy there won’t be much call for armies of laborers to toil amid the acres of wind turbines and solar panels.
There’s also no prospect of agreement on who should pay for policies designed to reduce global CO2 emissions. China — which has overtaken the U.S. as the world’s leading emitter — along with India and leading African nations, argue that they shouldn’t have to pay for measures to mitigate environmental problems caused by the developed nations. The developed nations, in turn, argue that they shouldn’t be penalized just because free-market policies enabled their economies to grow more rapidly than those of countries that persevered with various forms of socialism.
Yet another problem is the rush to biofuels, which was seen as a “magic bullet” by politicians for reducing CO2 emissions and achieving energy independence — not least in the U.S. — but is rapidly turning into a disaster worthy of an Al Gore movie all of its own. Dozens of studies have shown that the production of most biofuels causes more harm to the environment than the fuels themselves save, while the turning over of agricultural land from food production to growing crops for fuel is driving up food prices around the world.
Against the backdrop of these scientific and political developments, the public is becoming increasingly mistrustful of alarmist rhetoric. Al Gore’s massively hyped Live Earth event last summer was a flop of suitably global proportions — the only headlines it generated were for the air miles racked up by Gore’s troupe of platitude-spewing stars, the negligible viewing figures, and the mountains of rubbish left behind at the concert venues. More bad news for Gore followed when a British judge ruled that An Inconvenient Truth contained nine factual errors — the court case focused attention on Gore’s mendacity even as he was collecting his richly undeserved Nobel Peace Prize.
Gore is back peddling his patented brand of misinformation and fear-mongering with a $300 million advertising campaign — an awful lot of money, given that he’s been telling us for years that “the debate is over.” But the old magic seems to have gone, and these days he looks like nothing so much as the little boy who cried wolf. Short of appearing on stage with Elvis, and announcing that far from being dead the King has, in fact, been in self-imposed exile on a Pacific atoll studying the threat of rising sea levels, Al has played all his cards. A recent ABC News/Washington Post poll found that precisely zero per cent of Americans — yes, zero, that’s not a typo — rated global warming as the most important issue in the upcoming presidential election.
The alarmists are in no mood to give up. Earlier this month the BBC altered its report on those falling global temperatures after a green activist emailed the reporter who wrote the story, threatening to launch a campaign to discredit him. But far from this being a victory for the climate change camp, it backfired spectacularly — the story was picked up by bloggers and news media around the world, shining a light on the increasingly nasty tactics used by the lunatic fringe of the alarmist movement, and further damaging the BBC’s already battered reputation as an impartial news source.
Around the world people are beginning to see the disconnect between what politicians, environmentalists, and the media tell them, and what they see with their own eyes. Many countries have experienced record cold temperatures and snowfall over the past few months, and a person who’s just dug their car out of the snow doesn’t appreciate being told that their power bills are going up because of regulations to combat “global warming.” They’re not going to stand for job losses, higher living costs, and other hardships in the cause of shaving a hypothetical degree or two of warming a hundred years from now.
And as the disquiet grows even elements of the previously supine media may begin to change their tune. While some journalists are ideologically invested in attacking the Bush administration and promoting the role of the UN, or genuinely think they’re saving the planet, others are just chasing the next big story, and if the story becomes that politicians and corporations have been misleading and exploiting the public, they’re likely to jump off one bandwagon and on to another one heading in the opposite direction.
Maybe the current cooling will continue, maybe it won’t — unlike the alarmists, skeptics don’t claim to be able to see 100 years into the future. If the planet does continue to warm slightly, the billions that the alarmists want to spend in a futile bid to prevent it would be better spent tackling the real problems facing the world right now, as Bjorn Lomborg has so eloquently argued. (Imagine how many vaccination and water treatment programs Gore’s $300 million vanity fund would pay for in Africa.) And if the cooling continues, our descendants could find themselves heading for another ice age — and, ironically, desperately searching for ways to warm the planet.
Too many interested parties have too much invested in climate change alarmism to admit that the game is up just yet, but sooner or later their position is going to become untenable. And when it does, while acknowledging that many people embraced climate change alarmism for genuine reasons, we’ll have to decide what to do with those who knew or suspected their claims had no substance, but pressed on out of a desire to get rich or impose their ideologies on others.
Nuremberg-style trials anyone?
Mike McNally blogs at The Monkey Tennis Centre.






Great summary!
Here’s some data on the recent cooling:
January 2008 – 4 sources say “globally cooler” in the past 12 months
I dont know if I agree with you. The Global warming locomotive is at high speed. Down here in Helen Clarks New Zealand one can be almost tared and feathered for even thinking that Global warming doesnt add up!!! I know I have regular heated disagreements on this subject with my 12 year old daughter who has declared that she is ” a believer”.
3-4 years of non stop brain washing is taking its toll- its pretty hard to counter much less start pushing back.
Thank you for speaking out. We need more of this and we need it now.
I would also love to believe this. The facts of today’s politics in the US are following those of New Zealand. When all three presidential candidates talk fondly of Kyoto and “our social responsibility,” I get worried. When used by a politician, the word “our” always seems to come back to hit me and my taxes. Governments are not going to give up this new source of potential tax revenue.
I don’t understand you people. Despite what this guy says, he is not a scientist and the facts are there which support global warming. Why do conservatives not believe in science? You come off looking like apes in the dark age. Whats really troubling is your disconnect of how being eco-friendly improves our country, citizens and world. Think about (if you can). Less emmissions means less energy used which cuts down our reliance on foreign oil and drops the price of gas due to less demand. Our natural environment improves includes giving us a higher standard of living. Foreign countries (since they believe in global warming) respect the US more for taking the lead in solving the problem. We get to give our kids a better, cleaner world and its profitable. Are you all too lazy, wasteful and dense that you can’t understand that confronting climate change and environmental issues helps everyone?
It will only take time. Meanwhile, I am looking forward to a temperate summer, pleasant fall and a long winter.
Gore is screwed and I hope that he looses a lot of money. But it will be easy to tell when the Goracle stops believing: monitor the stock transactions of the companies he is involved with.
As for Cyclone Nagris, why haven’t we heard anything about the failure of the Myanmar Republic to evacuate its people from the coast?
For me, the most telling bit was here: “And if the cooling continues, our descendants could find themselves heading for another ice age — and, ironically, desperately searching for ways to warm the planet.” Either way (warm or cold), people will adjust. Humanity has survived worse disasters in the past (the volcanic winter of 1816, for instance). Why should we spend our time worrying about something that may never happen? More to the point, why do we assume the grown adults of the future won’t be able to take care of themselves?
You reference 1998 as the hottest year on record, yet as I understand it, NASA has revised their records to show that 1934 was the hottest year on record, as well as changing a lot of other “records”. See a column by Michelle Malkin for info:http://michellemalkin.com/2007/08/09/hot-news-nasa-fixes-flawed-temperature-data-1998-was-not-the-warmest-year-in-the-millenium/
Enjoyed the column. Too bad John McCain didn’t read it before shooting himself in the foot in Oregon.
Arlington, Texas
pol…. writes “Despite what this guy says, he is not a scientist and the facts are there which support global warming.”
Umm. Actually, the “facts” do not support global warming. Why do liberals so badly misunderstand and politicize science?
To politicalreacharound
You just don’t get it do you? The point of the article is that the science, politics and motivation on “climate change” are all flawed. If we listened to people like you all western democracies would end up bankrupt. Speaking as a UK citizen that has to suffer the BBC propoganda, (in the UK we have to pay an annual tax to the BBC of $280 so they can keep brainwashing us), it is great to read that the most important player, the USA, is starting to show leadership to the world in debunking this nonsense.
Great article-keep it up.
Thank God that voices of reason are finally being heard. The earth may or may not be warming or cooling–we simply do not know. What is patently clear to anyone with any common sense is that the idea of a significant anthropogenic contribution is nonsense and a hoax. Believing people like Al Gore or John McCain on this matter (or any scientific principle for that matter) is pure folly. Neither one could think their way out of a wet paper bag.
So what you are all saying is that the ice caps aren’t melting?
“So what you are all saying is that the ice caps aren’t melting?”
They melt in the summer and freeze in the winter. This has occurred for 1000s of years.
politicalreacharound:
1) “you people”?
2) “apes in the dark age”
3) “think about (if you can)”
4) “Are you all too lazy, wasteful and dense”
Cute “dood”.
Good article, “‘warms’ the cockles of my heart”.
“So what you are all saying is that the ice caps aren’t melting?”
Yes in the winter months they actually put on ice and in the summer they melt, that is called seasons, seems to affect the weather, something to do with the suns rays or so I believe.
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/DonEasterbrookInterviewTranscript.pdf
politicalreacharound:
Take a moment from your day and read this interview. It probably won’t change any minds but it is from a scientist. Enjoy.
Rod
It’s time to put the enviro-wacos in their place,out of sight.
Halleluja! And I thought I was the only one who saw through the hoax that was global warming. And so it is being revealed. Wonder when the BBC will finally get the message and stop peddling the politicised garbage that masquerades as science.
dmgold, remind your daughter that Science is all about experiments and theories and constantly testing theories to see if they are valid or not. Science is not a faith that one has to “believe in”. Failing that, you will have to just hope she grows out of it.
Ice cap growth over the past year is reported even greater than ever before. That dog don’t bark no more.
Ecology & responsible environmental actions are obvious to all. Over-reaction & socio-political actions designed to create a new socialist order where govt tells us all what to do while we pay outrageous taxes for programs whose returns will be pitiful, at best, are NOT the solution.
Had the enviro lobby approached this with sane reasoning & with sane programs & w/o the serious political actions they demand be “imposed” on all, more may have bought into it. But the whole think smelled bad from the get go & it still does.
Spending hundreds of billions to save us from a degree or even three degrees is irrational. Mankind has & can adapt to any change save a violent one and none of you are anywhere good enough to tell us it will be violent!
The gig is up & now time will reveal the ulterior motives of those who have tried to hoodwink we common “folk.”
So let me get this straight. Conservatives buy into the argument that if there is a 1% chance of WMDs in Iraq than we must go to war. Yet if there is a 99% chance global warming is happening we shouldn’t do anything until every last person is convinced. Genius, and by genius I mean you are all not very smart.
Well, well, well, the author starts out by proving he cannot calculate a trend properly (Go ahead, calculate a trend from 1998 to 2007; you’ll find, once someone has helped you to do it properly, that the trend is positive) and then he moves on into conspiracy theories.
The position of the National Academies of Science and the UK’s Royal Society is that global warming is real and man made. When wingnuts like this fool think they are smarter than the scientific community–or that the scientific community is in on some conspiracy–then that tells you how far their ideology has affected their ability to reason.
Hey, the 911 troofers do this too, so stupidity and insane conspiracies are spread all along the political spectrum.
“So let me get this straight. Conservatives buy into the argument that if there is a 1% chance of WMDs in Iraq than we must go to war. Yet if there is a 99% chance global warming is happening we shouldn’t do anything until every last person is convinced.”
apple meet orange
Here is the statement of the Joint Academies of Science of the G8 countries:
It is unequivocal that the climate is changing, and it is very likely that this is predominantly caused by the increasing human interference with the atmosphere. These changes will transform the environmental conditions on Earth
unless counter-measures are taken.
Link: http://tinyurl.com/693k9p
Now, which is it? Are rightwinegrs with little or no training more qualified to assess the evidence? Or are the national academies of science running a huge conspiracy?
politicalreacharound
Antarctic sea ice info
The unprecedented levels of southern hemisphere sea ice would tend to suggest that, no, the ice caps are not melting.
No, it means conservatives are easily fooled by fear mongering politicians yet very skeptical when it comes to hard science. It means you’re idiots, which is why the educated can be so condescending to you.
politicalreacharound, someone needs to say this to you; you have been brainwashed.
Yeah, I dont understand this. If you go to realclimate.org there is a very good article on the statistics of the prediction, and in fact that data does *not* support the conclusion that the warming has stopped. Variations in weather can make it appear so, but still not statistically prove that this is the case.
I am COMPLETELY open to changing my mind about global warming, and I am one of those people that does not particularly care whether it is happening anyway. But all these news stories claiming that the trend has stopped are incorrect.
The Global Warming-will-kill-us posters sound just like the Obama and RuPaul posters. they will not listen to anything that opposes their favorite flavor and become angry and nasty like petulant children.
While I myself am suspicious of any claims of Science, particularly around major predictions, I have to take issue with this article.
Global warming, if it exists is a new phenomena, its been observed for only a few years and the data and models seem iffy at best. However, this article, in and of itself is nothing more than someone bloviating about a topic that they are not educated in. The comments, thus, read as desperate individuals, willing to agree with anyone who wants to support their worldview. Sad on both counts.
Global Warming may, like WMD’s in Iraq, be Bullshit, purely designed to con regular people into a path that some elites want them to take… but, this article is about as useful as the bullshit articles, written by less than educated wannabe reporters that questioned WMD’s before the Iraq invasion… sure they were right, but only in the sense that they happened to guess correctly on a 50/50 wager.
There is no 99% chance that the global environment is warming. It is a simple as that. There is demonstrated swings in overall warming and cooling paterns over a short range of years, that seem to be loosely periodic. there is no relationship watsoever to the steadily increasing CO2 levels in the atmosphere, hence very little likelyhood that the temperature variation and or periodic climate shifts are human caused.
When the local temperature variations are plotted it is clear that there are climate changes unequally distributed around the globe. China, European Rusia and northern Europe is experiencing increased temperatures, Berritan and North America, particularly the industrialized north east, are experiencing dramatic cooling. Again, since industrialized North America and China are responsible for approximately equal percentages of the total CO2 output, there is no clear relationship. China, however, far outstrips North merica in Adumping raw pollutants, nitrous oxides, acids and soot into the atmosphere, so there may be some correlation there.
A few observations:
1)Whether or not global warming warrants the hysteria, local pollution is very real, energy independence is desparately needed, and green technologies can potentially serve us quite well. Let’s pump the oil using windmills until the oil is no longer necessary, and we’ll all be happy.
2)Ethanol is only useful when it’s aged in an oak barrel for at least 10 years.
3)The worst that happens is we lose Vanuatu and Bangladesh. Give ‘em California. Liberal guilt will be simultaneously assuaged and revenged.
So PRA – did you actually read any of the linked SCIENTIFIC articles? Are you aware of how science works? Let me give you a hint – it’s got nothing to do with “consensus”, although there’s anything but consensus about global warming, and even less about anthropogenic global warming. How do you explain the global cooling occuring over the last two years? You are the one coming off looking like an idiot, ignoring actual long-term evidence in favor of your emotions.
This apparently extends to WMDs. Based on the lack of your reading the scientific articles, I assume you didn’t read things like the 9-11 commission report or the ISG report. Plenty of information out there about these things as well.
You would do well with an open mind, a little investigation, and some reading, instead of self-gratification.
You think Global Warming is bad? If you love your family, if you love your children, you’ll want to see my new film.
SUPERNOVA!
http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/94145/detail/
It is unequivocal that the climate is changing,
That the one consistency about climate. It changes. Anyone thinks man can stop climate from changing is mad.
“How do you explain the global cooling occuring over the last two years?”
Stop calling people an idiot when you believe that climate can be determined over two years. The scientific definition of climate is weather over a long period of time.
You do have an open mind. For you climate could mean anything.
“That the one consistency about climate. It changes.”
Way to read half a sentence there. Great research skills.
Actually there were WMDs found in Iraq. Yes, they weren’t as numerous as some pre-war estimates, but they did exist. Saddam did use them against the Kurds.
Certainty is easy when one ignores all conflicting data.
Hey Inconvenient Truth lovers!
Did you know that computer graphics were used to provide “dramatic impact” in Al Gore’s documentary? That’s right. He used CGI straight from the poorly-attended blockbuster “The Day After Tomorrow” to show the Antarctic ice shelf collapsing. He talked about how majestic these cliffs are, but wouldn’t tell any of you “reality-based” crowd that he just cut-and-pasted off of his DVD. I guess he figured since so few people saw “The Day After Tomorrow” that nobody would notice. As is standard operating procedure in Al Gore Land, no explanation was given, no requests were even acknowledged.
What a bunch of suckers.
http://newsbusters.org/stories/al_gore_used_fictional_video_inconvenient_truth.html?q=blogs/noel-sheppard/2008/04/22/abc-s-20-20-gore-used-fictional-film-clip-inconvenient-truth
Hey Boris,
Take your own medicine. There was nothing in that previous post that said the two year cycle of cooling was total proof, it just showed that the folks who believe in constant upward trends of temperature every year are wrong. PRA didn’t want to look at that.
Take a look at the what the head of the NOAA says – “The problem here is that climate is inherently unpredictable and currently of little more than entertainment value. What is important is weather and its forecasting, hopefully a season or two in advance. Over the decades, as we untangle more of the cycles involved in climate, we may be able to predict multidecadal warming and cooling cycles (most importantly how these will affect precipitation regionally) and these will be useful policy tools but nothing in our current or foreseeable abilities makes climate worthy of special attention. Note we have an appalling record of predicting such well-studied and critical annual and multiannual cycles as ISMR (Indian Summer Monsoon Rainfall) and ENSO (El Niño southern Oscillation) and these have massive agricultural importance to the world. Stick to the weather — despite appearances we are beginning to understand some of it.”
In other words, the 100-year climate models are not accurate. If you watch the weather you know they can’t even figure the weather right a week into the future, let alone 100 years.
Oh yeah – ask those poor bastards in China who have suffered through the worst winter in a half century if they believe in anthropogenic global warming. Keep in mind that the Chinese are the world’s leading CO2 generators.
Lame response to mishu, Boris. Keep trying!
So how many people are going to die in the hysteria-caused food shortages in the third world before they realise they were wrong? Guess it will be another case of Al Gore & Co “meaning well” so sod the consequences.
Anti-capitalists have found the ecology as a way to ruin the world capitalist economy. And they are loving every minute of it.
No one believes that climate is not always changing, as it has always been thus, its just a matter of whether or not man has a significant effect on it.
Ratatosk: The link I posted in the first comment has all the proof you need from four different scientific research groups (HadCRUT, RSS, UAH, and GISS)… all are relied on by the IPCC. No warming, it’s plateaued. Don’t scientific theories need proof? If global warming advocates have predicted warming for ten years, and it hasn’t warmed… shouldn’t there be some rethinking going on?
Quarnstorm: Facts trump theory. Since there’s been no significant warming since 1998, and now there’s no warming predicted ’til 2015 because of La Nina (see the journal Nature), then surely someone will point out that the global warming models aren’t working? Or is this theory immune to facts? Meanwhile RealClimate is trying to discredit the German Marine scientists who made the prediction. That site seems controlled more by gadflies than people who behave like sober scientists.
Boris: How has that body managed to ignore that, as the head of the IPCC admitted, global warming has plaeaued? (See: Climate Facts)
Politicalreacharound: Good luck with that approach! You’re sooo much smarter than the rest of us, and your name-calling convinces us all of your positions. You’re helping the cause I’m sure.
For those of you criticizing us Global Warmism skeptics because we are contradicting “Science”:
Here’s 103 scientists who disagree with the global warmist alarmism: Open Letter to the Secretary-General of the United Nations. Ever here of the Manhattan Declaration on Climate Change from the International Science Climate Coalition?
Hey Boris and Reach-around,
Want some science? Here’s some.
http://co2science.org/data/mwp/mwpp.php
This goes into detail about the Medieval Warm Period. Bottom line is that according to data published by 534 individual scientists from 326 separate research institutions in 38 different countries there was a Medieval Warm Period. No evil SUVs, Chinese industrialists, or Republicans to be found in the Medieval Warm Period.
How about more science?
Yep, that’s right, more. Turns out there’s a paper floating around that looked at a lot of the data the IPCC didn’t want to touch. Want to see it?
http://www.sepp.org/publications/NIPCC_final.pdf
Anyone? Feel free to respond to the mad science. (Did you know these articles come from real, peer-reviewed scientists?)
Boris is a bonehead,
“it just showed that the folks who believe in constant upward trends of temperature every year are wrong.”
Great. It showed that an argument no one is making is wrong. When you’re ready to tackle the real arguments and not the ones you make up so that you can feel smart, let me know.
You are still confusing weather and climate, but you know more than the NAS. Sure, pal.
“Turns out there’s a paper floating around that looked at a lot of the data the IPCC didn’t want to touch.”
Anyone who believes the Heartland Institute over the National Academies and the Royal Society is an idiot.
Why do liberals like Politialreacharound and Boris make a religion out of their pet issues? They don’t say “Well let’s look at your data and my data, check for validity and see what we come out with.” They launch ad hominem attacks and try to silence anyone who has a different viewpoint.
That tells me their “faith” is being questioned and indeed shaken.
Wow, your opinion whine is more abusive and anti-intellectaul than most of the pro global warming ones. Yeah, anyone who believes in global warming is a crazed red, only right wing crackpots talk like. That’s right, generalize and insult, after all this is the place to do it.
Consanescerion,
global warming has not plateaued. If you cherry pick 1998 as a start year, you still get a positive trend–although ti is not very positive. But if choose any other year from the 1990s, you get a strong warming trend. So your whole idea that global warming has stopped is nonsense. Buy your logic global warming stopped many times in the 1980s and 1990s. Not very reassuring, is it?
Ooh, namecalling!
Nobody is making that argument? Your prophet of doooooom, Al Gore made that argument in his little art-house film. James Hansen made that same argument before it was found his numbers were fudged. I never claimed to know more than the NAS. However, other scientists who do know something do know more. I, unlike you, can actually read both sides and see what has more validity. I say that the report that looks at all of the data has more validity. You?
Did you actually READ the Heartland document, Boris? Are all of those scientists idiots too? Or could it be they just don’t believe the half-baked science you’re peddling? Don’t be scared. Your tiny worldview is the only thing at stake.
“They launch ad hominem attacks and try to silence anyone who has a different viewpoint.”
Dude, the author of this article and most posters have said that global warming is a hoax ans scientists are doing it just for money. They insult the scientists who work on this issue and when I come along and say that is a stupid position, you complain that I said “stupid.”
Mike McNally didn’t present any data. He went on a lengthy screed that accused scientists of being corrupt. He also showed that he doesn’t have the faintest clue how to calculate a trend. But don’t be rude to the guy who accuses scientists of being corrupt and does so with an ignorance of statistical and climatological issues that is breathtaking in its completeness! Give me a break.
I guess we’re all taking lessons from you on generalizing and insulting. Not a single word in your comment provided any additional value to this conversation. Thanks.
Even Boris has more intellectual cojones than you.
Did I do OK?
The ice cap has increased by 5%, polar bear population is at highs. The Larsen B shelf was melted by undersea volcanoes a few years back. (If it was going to fail or melt, then why not in 1998 when we reached temperature highs?)
Oh, and here’s a paper, with lots of evidence predicting climate out 30 years – it’s cooling. Lots of real science to back that to. Argue with him. This is a PDF link.
http://www.warwickhughes.com/agri/Solar_Arch_NY_Mar2_08.pdf
Hey Boris – waiting for your reply on the Medieval Warm Period.
“Ooh, namecalling!”
Look, moron, you call yourself “Boris is a bonehead,” so I assume you can take it. If I hurt your feelings, I’ll let up.
Nobody is making the argument that temperature will increase each and every year. If someone has made the argument, you should be able to prove it. Go ahead, find Gore or Hansen saying that. Or save your time and admit you are making stuff up.
Yes, I’ve read the Heartland stuff. I like how they think that measuring CO2 concentrations in the middle of cities gives a valuable reading of the background atmosphere concentration.
I’ll respond to your post when you provide proof that Gore or Hansen said that temps will rise every year. Go ahead. Prove it. Don’t pass up the opportunity to make me look stupid.
Will you slink away, change the subject or admit that you were lying? This should interesting…
I love it when posters can’t help but prove an opponent’s point.
As I said, look at “all” the data, check for validity and make an honest conclusion. Just not a lot of that going on. Yes that is on both sides of the issue. For me I have looked at both sides the global warming thesis and I find that it is just not compelling.
When data is this weak yet the proponents are so venemous in there attacks I can only think it is time to “follow the money”. I find there is a lot of money to follow.
Even conservatives and the Bush administration are finally admitting.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D90LJ4BO2&show_article=1
Michael,
Ah, I see. You are a conspiracy theorist too. Gotcha.
Actually there were WMDs found in Iraq. Yes, they weren’t as numerous as some pre-war estimates, but they did exist. Saddam did use them against the Kurds.
Certainty is easy when one ignores all conflicting data.
Precisely my point.
There is not nearly enough data to reliably determine anything about Global Warming in a certain manner. I am of the opinion that Al Gore’s ‘slam dunk’ and George Tenant’s ‘slam dunk’ are of the same game. However, so is abject naysaying by less than informed random people. Experts were wrong on WMD’s… yet lots of idiots and assholes weighed in on THE FACTS, which oddly supported their particularly view of reality. The same thing is happening now, here and at DailyKOS, in these comments and at Green Peace.
Some evidence points to Global Warming, just as some evidence pointed to WMD’s. Some evidence contradicts current popular claims about global warming, some evidence contradicted the popular claims about WMD’s. Feel free to pat each other on the back and think you Know The Truth… just note the company you keep in such certainty.
Or produce some evidence that any of you are any more qualified to speak about global warming, than Cindy Sheehan is to discuss Foreign Intelligence.
If I were to look for… say the latest numbers on the Iraqi death toll and I were to find a paper which was written by “The 2008 Council on Iraqi Death Count” or some other official sounding group, it would be interesting. However, if it was drastically higher than every other body count… if it stated in certitudes what other reports did not… if the names of the attendees were George Soros, Arianna Huffington, Al Gore and Al Frankin… then I would seriously question the usefulness of the data. Sure it ‘could’ be correct, but only if we didn’t go see Occam for a shave.
So, when I hear “Here’s a devastating new report on Global Warming” I do the same thing… I see who made the claims and what claims they made.
So I took a look at “The Manhattan Declaration on Climate Change” which sounds just spiffy… but then I find that they state in no uncertain terms that the whole issue is concluded and done. Case closed. I find myself wondering what great and wondrous people made such a fantastic discovery.
So, we begin to search:
David Archibald: Known vocal opponent to Global Warming. He produced a paper a couple years back which was, according to a number of experts… crap. For example, his worldwide statistics were based, not on data collections from around the world, but from 5 rural stations in the Southeast US. Maybe this is valid… but then maybe Dennis Kuchinich is a reasonable choice for President too…
J. Scott Armstrong: Took a minute to find this specialist… since he’s a professor of marketing and has no scieney/meteorological training that I can find. again, he could be right… but so could Al Gore, as they both appear equally qualified.
Now, I’m not gonna fill up this page with names and descriptions… but suffice to say that more than a few of the people listed as signatories to this official sounding document, either work for think tanks that are specifically conservative in nature or have a history of saying “NO Climate Problems” even when the data appeared to support it… or the people are Marketing people, policy people etc.
Now, some of the people appear to actually be experts and they may have real and useful arguments… just as someone in 2002 may have had a real and useful argument regarding the exaggerated threat of WMD’s. However, the company they keep makes me far more concerned about them getting fleas, rather than putting stock in their claims.
I’ll respond to your post when you provide proof that Gore or Hansen said that temps will rise every year.
IOW, BIAB, he has no response…much like the rest of the MMGW alarmists.
Want to know the easiest way to tell that MMGW is a fraud? Simple…it’s the fact that the alarmists are absolutely terrified of publically debating the issue with skeptics. It’s funny…they use intimidation, they use ridicule, they use name-calling; but do you notice how they refuse to use the oldest, most reliable method for arguing the merits of a proposition to the public: a good, old-fashioned DEBATE OF THE ISSUE?
If MMGW is real, and it’s the incredible threat to mankind that supporters claim it is, then why are they so afraid of standing in front the public – with an equal number of skeptics being present on the same stage – and defending their claims?
The answer is obvious. They’re deathly afraid of results like this.
An excerpt:
In this debate, the proposition was: “Global Warming Is Not a Crisis.” In a vote before the debate, about 30 percent of the audience agreed with the motion, while 57 percent were against and 13 percent undecided. The debate seemed to affect a number of people: Afterward, about 46 PERCENT AGREED with the motion, roughly 42 percent were opposed and about 12 percent were undecided.
Thus, in the span of 1 hour, the percentage who believed that MMGW is being over-hyped jumped 16% points, from nearly one-third to nearly one-half of attendees.
FACT: Global temperatures have been falling since 1998, declining in 2007 to a 1983 level.
Hmmm…isn’t that weird? I thought that “warming” meant that the temperatures were going up. Oh, well!
FACT: The 1930s had four of the 10 warmest years of the past century, with the hottest year of all being not 1998, as was previously claimed, but 1934.
Wow! Man-made climate change sure is powerful stuff! It can travel back in time now!
FACT: 95% of the “greenhouse effect” is caused by water vapor. Less than 4% is caused by carbon dioxide. And here’s the real kicker: of that 4%, human activity is responsible for only 3% of the total carbon dioxide concentration in atmosphere…mother nature provides the rest.
GRAND TOTAL: HUMAN ACTIVITY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ONLY 0.28% OF THE GREENHOUSE GASES IN THE ATMOSPHERE!!!
Run for the hills! The end is nigh! Save us Goracle!!!
Don’t believe the hype, people.
Good point, Ratatosk. This same criteria must be applied to the pro-warming folks as well. When will any of you be honest enough to do that?
Look, Boris – there’s nothing you can do to hurt me. I laugh at you. You make you look stupid.
Next, the IPCC (co-Nobel laureate with the Goracle if I’m not mistaken) told everyone with certainty that the global temp would go up over 0.3 deg. C in the next decade.
And you know the IPCC was selective in their data choices. Didn’t include little things like El Nino or the Gulf Stream. Tell me you didn’t know that.
Ratatosk – please pass on your own credentials for us to see.
I guess in your world, Leonardo DeCaprio is an intellectual heavyweight.
Remember the Middle Ages do you? The Church selling pardons? As in buy this piece of paper and you WILL go to Heaven. Well, we are here again. This time the hysteria is Climate Change replacing Fear of God and Eternal Damnation. People need a Faith. No Faith? Something will turn up to fill the gap and along with it every commercial preacher and snake oil salesman looking to make a quid or grab some power. So next time you buy a carbon offset voucher when you buy an airticket, remember the Pardoner’s Tale.
When liberals get in trouble in an argument they change the subject to WMDs.
Guess what? The new mantra is:
“Gore Lied! People Died!”
http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/?p=2189
BiaB,
It’s simple: you are a liar. You said Gore and Hansen said that the temperature would go up every year and yet you cannot find proof. The reason you haven’t provided proof yet is because you are lying. There is no proof.
Are you going to let a liberal like me show you up to be a liar? I’m sure the proof will be forthcoming.
This same criteria must be applied to the pro-warming folks as well. When will any of you be honest enough to do that?
Err, I do apply it to the pro-warming folks… and I find that many of them may have ulterior motives for believing what they believe as well.
LET ME BE CLEAR: I have no idea if Global Warming is True of False, or both (happening in some sense, but all of the science is currently bunk). I am NOT a physicist, not weather expert, I’ve never been to the North Pole, nor have I been to the Sahara. But, see… neither are most of the people commenting here. THAT IS THE POINT. Look at some of these posts smugly asserting that Global Warming is not true because of an idiotic website, which appears more as a shill for propaganda than honest science! The posters here appear to have done nothing more than a quick google search to find words that support their view of the issue. That’s no different than Iraq Body Count cherry picking data to support their nonsense.
I have no problem saying “I don’t know” when it comes to the issue of Global Warming… just as I said “I don’t know” when it came to Iraq and WMD’s. That, my friend, is honesty. What’s going on here is just validation for world view that may be right or wrong, without being bothered by honesty, truth or objectivity.
More like Gore lied, the working and lower middle classes spending power died…
I saw a very effective presentation by an Australian scientist who was involved in deep sea bore analysis over an extended period, this presentation sank the global warming lie without trace.
The truth is that the Global Waming crowd have hedges their bets by changing the name to climate change, it proves that it is rubbish…
First, in the scientific literature it has been consistently called global climate change since, though global average temperatures are rising, climate change effects different regions differently and climatic factors other than temperature are included (ex/ rainfall).
Second, climate ≠ weather.
The list used there was compiled by Dennis Avery at the Heartland Institute/Hudson Institute. He did not consult with most of the scientists before including their names on his list and determined for himself that he felt their research supported some part of his position. After the list was published several of the scientist have sought to have their names removed from the list to no avail. Others were entirely unaware of their inclusion. Kevin DeGrandia (desmogblog) emailed 122 of the scientists on the list and quickly received 45 responses outraged that they were included on the list. Here are a few of their responses,
Dr. David Sugden. Professor of Geography, University of Edinburgh
Dr. Gregory Cutter, Professor, Department of Ocean, Earth and Atmospheric Sciences, Old Dominion University
Dr. Robert Whittaker, Professor of Biogeography, University of Oxford
Dr. Svante Bjorck, Geo Biosphere Science Centre, Lund University
Dr. John Clague, Shrum Research Professor, Department of Earth Sciences, Simon Fraser University
The bulk of the listed scientists are either from unrelated fields, do not discount the science of global climate change(but the hyperbole of some less informed advocates), or disagree entirely with what their names have been attached to without their permission. This listing is blatently dishonest.
No, but there are ideal climates for particular organisms. Radical changes in climate have resulted in radical changes in the survival of adapted organisms.
Which represents proportionally more dissent than is present in the scientific community, particularly the climate science community. How much TV time should be alloted to disputing the link between cigarette smoking and cancer?
One year or 5 does not establish or “cancel out” a trend. There are many factors at play determining climate, CO2 is one, La Niña/El Niño is another.
Turning food crops into fuel is a boondoggle, but other biofuels show much promise. Both mixed prairie grasses and algae show much higher yields, greater efficiencies, and do not require displacing food crops.
BTW high food prices have more to do with subsidies paid to keep productive farm land fallow than misguided corn to fuel programs.
The judge also said that the film was “broadly accurate,” idnetified “four main scientific hypotheses, each of which is very well supported by research published in respected, peer-reviewed journals and accords with the latest conclusions of the IPCC,” and agreed “That climate change is mainly attributable to man-made emissions of carbon dioxide, methane and nitrous oxide (‘greenhouse gases’).”
The 9 errors were 9 overstatements. These were largely confined to stating global warming as the cause of an event when it was more likely a cause of that event (ex/ the snows of Kilamanjaro melting).
Might that have something to do with the near unanimity of opinion on the subject by the remaining candidates?
Some more results from that same question from that ABC/WaPo poll,
Social Security, taxes, gun control, Iran, and the budget deficit also got nothing. Does that mean that Americans do not care about these issues, or that they are 2nd, 3rd or 4th place issues behind the war in Iraq or some other concern?
[commenter responses]
I have and I have worked closely with climate modelers. Consensus does not determine how any particular experiment will work out. Consensus by the people studying a particular phenomenon is an indicator of what the current data suggests. There is a broad consensus withing the general scientific community and broad and deep consensus among climate scientists that the global climate is warming and that anthropogenic factors are at least partly responsible. I will reiterate a challenge I have made dozens of times:
I will produce 10 articles (published in a peer reviewed scientific journal since 2000) to your one that support the hypothesis of anthropogenically caused global climate change for any one you find that refutes it. I have yet to be sent a single one.
One article with a definitive refutation would be sufficient to change my opinion, but none has as yet been published.
that is well responded to here.
To claim that the vast majority of scientist and a greater majority of climate scientists are perpetrating a hoax is just silly as is the name calling, stick to the evidence. If the evidence were as strong and widespread as some here would like to believe it should have been published in a reputable journal by now. If you have the data to prove that global climate change is not happening or that there is not anthropogenic causation, publish and do it in a peer reviewed journal.
Conspiracy theorist. Nice label. No, I just see where people’s self interest can cloud their judgment.
By the way, I am sorry about throwing the L word around. Nothing like being hoist on my own petard. hehe
“Global warming, if it exists is a new phenomena, its been observed for only a few years and the data and models seem iffy at best.”
Actually, no, it’s not a new phenomena. There have been much warmer periods in recorded history. The Medieval Climate Optimum and the Roman Warm Period are two.
But you’re right that the data and models for anthropogenic climate change are iffy at best.
Anyone who believes “global warming” is crisis or any other kind of issue is Scum.
How did you idiots miss the pornography addiction train your minds are so clearly designed to succumb to? Go thou! Get a new hobby, and shut up.
Some diabolically clever, P.T. Barnum-esque boomer geniuses figured out how to make money off of liberal guilt, through the carbon credits scam, and a new “science” is born.
We can’t even accurately predict a single hurricane season and I’m to believe the junk stats from the global warming alarmists? The historical climate and temperature record is spotty and incomplete, especially on a global scale. Any models based on it are no more predictive than astrology. And for all we know we might be in another mini ice age if it weren’t for our burning fossil fuels.
It should rightly raise some red flags whenever people start making claims that the “discussion is over” and “all experts agree”. We humans are never quite as stupid as when we think we know it all.
There has always been changes in Temp, currently the earth is rather cool by historical standards.
I note that Temperatures on Mars are similarly rising, scientists say that the sun is outputting more energy.
Are we to blame for global warming in mars too.
It’s a Tax scam.
Ratatosk,
Doesn’t it irritate you that those shoving Global Warming down your throat as a fact are doing so to extract money from you in the form of taxation and increased utility bills? Those who you claim are equally bad because they want more proof only tax your disposition, they stay out of your purse. That must earn some good will – unless you aren’t as divided on the issue as you state.
John McCain has surrendered my vote and the votes of other conservatives on an issue that has zero priority in the electorate. This man isn’t smart enough to be president.
And can someone explain to me how cap and trade does anything but endorse the rob peter to pay paul policy? Being incapable of affecting anything except the hobbling of the individual is a glaring flaw in this solution.
The number one step in salesmanship: Establish the need. If advocates are calling for more taxes, more regulation, more government, they must establish the need for it. Enter global warming. Problems arose when global warming wasn’t global. Later it became increasingly obvious that it isn’t warming either.
Heaven help our lying eyes and those big utility bills.
Most of you are idiots when it comes to understanding new fuel sources. It takes 3x as much energy to make ethanol than fosil fuels. which means in the long run you’re causing more problems than solving them. As usualy, the Left never looks at the big picture when its trying to save us “unwashed masses” from ourselves.
I’m sorry – changing the time scale for your graphs does not refute the argument, neither does picking out grammtical errors. The hypothesis is that industrial pollution has caused the problem is it not? Why go back to the 1700′s? You could as well go back to the hypocene if you insist looking long cycle, and guess what? The effect is proved out.
Can you refute his argument about solar cycles and the apparent cooling cycle we are headed into? No I did not think so.
Global warming is religion, NOT science;
Here is a site covering both sides of the debate;
http://climatedebatedaily.com/
I have found it to be a waste of time arguing, since The GW scaremongers are religious fanatics and no amount of logic nor evidence will change their mind. When they drop dead of a stroke caused by shoveling snow off their drvieway in Miami 40 years from now, they will still believe in global warmimg.
Jeb
It also amazes me that you think you debunked something written and updated with more evidence in March 2008 back in February 2007. You MMGW proponents certainly do have quite the Karnak hats, should we all scrape at your feet and say we aren’t worthy or something?
From RealClimate:
At Jim Hansen’s now famous congressional testimony given in the hot summer of 1988, he showed GISS model projections of continued global warming assuming further increases in human produced greenhouse gases. This was one of the earliest transient climate model experiments and so rightly gets a fair bit of attention when the reliability of model projections are discussed.
In the original 1988 paper, three different scenarios were used A, B, and C. … The details varied for each scenario, but the net effect of all the changes was that Scenario A assumed exponential growth in forcings, Scenario B was roughly a linear increase in forcings, and Scenario C was similar to B, but had close to constant forcings from 2000 onwards.
…
Hansen stated that this comparison was not sufficient for a ‘precise assessment’ of the model simulations and he is of course correct. However, that does not imply that no assessment can be made, or that stated errors in the projections (themselves erroneous) of 100 to 400% can’t be challenged.
Oh, snap!
The telling point of “Inconvenient Truth” was that Gore never mentioned the one viable energy source that could serve his cause – nuclear power. He never uttered the word although he did provide an image of a nuclear explosion. Pretty obvious propaganda to me.
McCain endorsed “climate change” so that he could collect big campaign contributions from businesses that stood to gain from the cap and trade schemes. Note Carly Fiornia’s efforts on his behalf – she’ll be hitting up the Kleiner, Perkins crowd for money for McCain amongst others.
Nothing new of substance was added to his 2006 paper in his 2008 presentation. A debunking of the original suffices for the repetition.
The grammatical quibbles where merely to point out the lack of review and editing. The debunking goes far beyond what you describe. For example,
Because Archibald chose that time scale and reliable annual data is available for both sunspot activity and temperature at this location (and many others). Archibald leaves out other stations that do not match his assertion and even leaves out data from the one station he chooses to use because it does not match his assertion. When all the data is used the correlation is extraordinarily weak. In short he has no credibility.
To claim that weather prediction and climate prediction are different beasts is nonsense. The only trump card that climate scientists rely on is CO2 forced warming. This is the “bad” science that us “idiots” do not buy, because the evidence just does not exist.
Take away your CO2 “magic bullet” and climate prediction goes out the window. By the way, I was in college in 1990 just hearing about global warming. Computer models said we would be 2 degrees warmers by now. Didn’t happen. It’s like a doomsday cult. Just change the prediction and hope no one remembers the old ones.
First, Jeb, it proves nothing if some scientists complain that their data is used to contradict their opinion. Indeed, if the contradictory conclusions from this data are true, it would only show how biased these scientists are.
Second, you can call a factual error an overstatement or an understatemet, it doesnt change the fact, that an factual error is a factual error. And Gores film is full of these errors. Many arguments that he tries to make are infact based on an “overstatement”, as you call it.
Third, just because a majority of learned people believe something, does not make it true, especially if the belief is also used to pursue political motives. Or was Galileo Galilei wrong just because he was in the minority? Fact is, nobody has the scientific means to prove how the weather will be in 10 years (there isnt even a reliable weather forecast for the next month), nor can anybody prove what the consequences of a severe climate change would be.
Fourthly, civilization has taken its path, and there will be no reductions in CO2 unless our civilization stops all progress, and goes bakc to the bronze age, and reduces therby most of the population to utter poverty. And, if CO2 is so bad, why just dont eradicate every living being on the planet, then there would be no evil CO2 emittents.
I just do not believe that Nature, of which the human race is just one part, is trying to kill itself.
The author has simply compiled a list of straw-men and red-herrings and demonstrated that while he is very good at polemics he is also very poor at science (or perhaps he is just be deceiving.)
Note his choice to only reference “alarmists” rather than “scientists”. What, are you afraid of actually venturing into the scientific literature?
Note also his choice of picking on ethanol – as if the US mandate for ethanol use arose out of any concern for CO2. (Truth is simply that ethanol use grew as an agriculture policy, then later endorsed as an energy security policy.)
As an essay the author muddles the actual science, then the policy decisions that will/must be made to address both climate change and other issues. Perhaps Lomborg is correct on how to spend money to deal with issues, but that hasn’t as much to do with how much CO2 causes climate change, rather that the ROI for the funds available dictate one of the many other environmental issues gets addressed first.
It is so sad to see a display of polemics being dressed up as either a discussion of science, or even of policy.
Would the author be willing to actually engage in a discussion of science and policy, rather than simply to vent against Al Gore?
No, to claim they are the same displays a lack of understanding. Though it may be counter intuitive, it is often far easier to predict large scale phenomena than smaller scale phenomena. For example, we cannot predict where a single drop of water entering the Gulf Stream off the coast of Georgia today will be in a month or a year. We can however quite accurately predict where the average drop of water now in the Gulf Stream off the coast of Georgia will be in a month, a year, or further in the future.
No, but it does mean something if a scientists work is said to mean one thing and the scientist who produced the work indicates that it means something else entirely.
Depends on your definition of many I guess. I would call nine several. Most of those nine were attributing a change solely to climate change when climate change was but one factor (Kilamanjaro etc.). The others were matters of positing worst case scenarios. Sea levels will not likely rise 7m in the next hundred years (that is at the outside edge of predictions).
It was a flawed movie and is not the place to get your science, but I have yet to see a movie that is a good place to get your science.
No, but it is a good indicator of where the evidence currently available points.
Gallileo was not persecuted by other scientists and it was not other scientists that said he was wrong (at least not without prompting from the Church).
Once again weather is not climate. If it rains tomorrow that is a change in the weather not a change in the climate.
That is only potentially true if technology remains static.
Anthropomorphizing nature leads to muddied thinking. “Nature” does not have motives. Man has motives and more often than we like or motives for actions and the results of those actions are at odds. That said, I do not think that any climate change we are at all likely to see will eliminate humans. We will survive (though perhaps less comfortably) and the world will survive (though perhaps with far less biodiversity).
Climate and weather perdiction are exactly the same in that thay are enormously complex systems involving a multitude of variables. Changing one or more inputs completely changes the results. Also if weighting factors are off even a small amount, the accumulation of error will render the prediction useless. That’s why early climate models are so far off and new models constantly need to be made (or old ones tweaked).
The bottom line is that both the climatologist and the meteorologist suffer the same problems – too little data, too little understanding of the data, and unpredicted variables entering the equations.
Meteorologists, of course, have to explain why they were wrong a day, week, or month down the road. A somewhat humbling experience, I imagine.
Climatologists, on the other hand, are disingenuous enough that they know that they won’t have to answer to anyone for decades – long enough to publish a few papers and enjoy a nice career. Now that’s luxury when you’re in the forecasting business. What arrogance!
To say one can predict the climate when we can’t predict the weather IS outrageous. You can correct me when climatology has established a track record – say in about 100 years.
I’m sorry, but I understand this far better than you think I do. Ask an engineer what happens when his data is just a little off or he forgot to account for something in the design.
Mike McNally: “In February of this year a raft of data from the leading monitoring centers showed that average global temperatures had fallen by around 0.65º C…”
The “raft of data” does not in fact link to “leading monitoring centers”, rather to a blog which displays a graph captioned: “World Temperatures according to the Hadley Center for Climate Prediction. Note the steep drop over the last year.”
This graph is in turn sourced from yet another blog, which has no connection with the original data used to create the graph and apparently sourced from The Met Office Hadley Centre in the UK, one of the four main sources for climate data. So what does the Hadley Centre have to say about 2007?
“The provisional global figure, using data from January to November, currently places 2007 as the seventh warmest on record since 1850.”
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/pressoffice/2007/pr20071213.html
The other six years in order are: 1998, 2005, 2003, 2002, 2004, 2006. In addition, the centre says that “…the top 11 warmest years all occur in the last 13 years”.
In other words, the atmosphere has not ‘cooled’. Far from it. It has reached the highest recorded levels and shows no signs of falling back.
Beginning with the title, this article is a hack job, linked to like-minded hack jobs. It has little connection to the data as detailed on the sites of the organisations that are actually doing climate science.
This is a good article. I often compare today’s global climate change fearmongers with my experiences as a religious man in the 1970′s as some of us were drawn into the “Late Great Planet Earth” theology. The characteristics of the believers whether in a “last days theology” or in the pseudo-science hype of the global warming believers are rather similar. We both believed in some form of “special knowledge” that the unbeliever simply did not understand, bascially because we were the righteous and enlightened while they were the sinners and selfish. In both cases mounting evidence to the contrary did nothing to shake the faith of the true believer in their belief. In both views, there was at the foundation of their belief a view that we were a special group of people with a special knowledge about a special and unique time that threatened catastrophe upon the earth. Perhaps Al Gore, a lifetime Southern Baptist, was especially prone to thinking in such terms because many Southern Baptists accepted the “last days now theology”. He did not accept that line of thinking because he was more scientific than the often unscientific “last days now proponents.” But there is no reason men of science cannot chase hyped up catastrophic philosophies now tendencies, as do those of a more religious mindset. In the long run, I think this will be the lesson of the Global Warming view. When it is discredited, it will be used to remind us that there is great need to beware of fearmongering whether in science, religion, or politics. Humanity is driven by hope and fear, and we can get suckered in by extremes of either.
That’s right, the icecaps aren’t melting. The Arctic cap did melt, but even NASA was forced to admit that the one year melting was due to a change in circulation patterns, not a warmer world. That melting has since reversed.
The Antarctic last year, set a record for the amount of ice. And this year looks like it could be another record.
Greenland. Also growing.
Why don’t you stop insulting everyone who disagrees with you, and learn a little science.
I stopped reading as soon as I saw politicalreacharound get owned and then (rather embarrassingly) resort to using the Iraq War to try to claw back ground.
Very poor effort PRA. Take ALL of your criticisms of the rationally thinking, scientifically minded sceptics, direct those same criticisms precisely at yourself and go and sit in the corner. You dunce.
“By the way, I was in college in 1990 just hearing about global warming. Computer models said we would be 2 degrees warmers by now.”
This is just nonsense. No model predicted 2 degs in twenty years. But if you have a citation to prove it….
Do you see the pattern? People either believe in a conspiracy or they make some claim that isn’t true and they cannot back up. This is why no one is listening to you guys anymore. You are full of it.
BiaB,
“he showed GISS model projections of continued global warming assuming further increases in human produced greenhouse gases.”
Is this supposed to be proof that Hansen said temperature would go up “every year.” Because that is clearly not what he says.
The lies continue. What a shocker.
@Jeb:
“Once again weather is not climate.”
But this distinction is not essential to the argument.
“Climate, conditions of the atmosphere at a particular location over a long period of time.” http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9106248/climate
“Weather, state of the atmosphere at a particular place during a short period of time.” http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9076362/weather
It surely is harder to predict something over a long period of time, than over a short period. If someone cannot reliably predict something over a short period, do you think he is more able to do it over a long period? Surely not!
Jeb: “Depends on your definition of many I guess.”
In any case more than 50%.
Jeb: “Gallileo was not persecuted by other scientists”
Its not about persecution. Its about opinion and truth. Most people of his time, and many learned men among them, considered him wrong. But to take another example, just consider the aether theory or the caloric theory, which were quite in vogue among reputable scientist for some time. My point is, a majority consensus about any thing means nothing, if no one has the ability to prove it beyond reasonable doubt.
Jeb: “Anthropomorphizing nature leads to muddied thinking.”
Lets put it another way. That humanity is able to severely harm itself is against the most basic laws of living nature: The Law of Self Preservation, and the Law of Preservation of the Species. These laws were established beyond reasonable doubt a long time ago, and are true in more than 99,9% of the cases. I do not think that the feeble evidence and the even more feeble conclusions of climatologist are enough to establish a contradiction to these laws.
Ratatosk,
Doesn’t it irritate you that those shoving Global Warming down your throat as a fact are doing so to extract money from you in the form of taxation and increased utility bills? Those who you claim are equally bad because they want more proof only tax your disposition, they stay out of your purse. That must earn some good will – unless you aren’t as divided on the issue as you state.
No, lack of thinking for oneself and a complete unwillingness to say “I don’t know” pretty much pisses me off no matter which idiotic humans are doing it.
I have no love of socialist concepts, I’m of the opinion that the best government is a very small one. Yet, the more exposure I have to the complete cognitive dissonance of both parties, the more I realize that the size of the government doesn’t matter, if the people are all mad.
It has been proved by science that the Glob has warmed since the last ice age. It warmed up a lot to melt mile thick glaciers. There were no factories, no SUV’s. The warming was not man-made.
Climate change is still NOT man made.
The climate change terror is a sales method, to TAX the producers of the world, and move wealth to the already wealthy.
How can you put the polar bear on the endangerd species list when the numbers have increased in the last 40 years???? Madness.
A good scientist trys to prove his theory wrong in order to prove it right. If he is able to prove it wrong he rejects the theory. A bad scientist trys to prove his theory right and rejects any evidence that proves it wrong. Guess which type of science we buy with $4 billion in research grants?
“This is just nonsense. No model predicted 2 degs in twenty years. But if you have a citation to prove it….”
Of course I don’t have documentation. That was pre-internet even (far the most part). I remember it being thrown at me in scare presentations. I remember the number because I thought it was unbelievable even then. Instead of jumping on the alarmist bandwagon, it made me skeptical. I have been following GW closely every since and have watched the alarmists change time frames, temperatures, and ecological consequences in the last 18 years. I have seen almost everything (emotionalism, guilt, name-calling, demonization) from the climate group except really good science. It’s hard to find anything now but the latest computer predictions.
As for “no model predicted 2 degrees”, do you even know how climate modeling is achieved? There are models which predict no warming in 50 years and models that predict 5 degrees or more in 50 years. Climatologists do statistical analysis to determine which models are closest to the an average of the models and they go with these. The different models are needed to analyze different weighting factors and adding or subtracting variables. Why? BECAUSE THEY DON’T KNOW EXACTLY HOW THE CLIMATE MECHANISMS INTERACT.
Additionally, each model is run multiple times because each run gives slightly different results. After so many iterations a most likely statistcal probability emerges. That’s for each model. By the way, that’s how the weather people make their forecasts too. So saying that weather and climate are different may be true in reality. But in the virtual world, they are forecasted the same way.
Global warming deniers- get over it you lost! Even McCain understands it after he turned up his hearing aid and heard the data. Its over done. STFU! Intelligent people don’t believe your backwards explanations of what is going on. The majority has spoke
“It surely is harder to predict something over a long period of time, than over a short period.”
Really? Okay, you predict the temperature at noon in Chicago on June 1st and I’ll predict the average temperature in Chicago for June. Think you can get closer than me?
Jeb:
You can decry the paper all you wish, but the facts are bearing the prediction out. Where are the sunspots friend? Where are they?
STFU! Intelligent people don’t believe your backwards explanations of what is going on.
That’s really rich, PRA, coming from an idiot who hasn’t bothered to post ONE FACT to support your screeching!
Actually, your posts could serve as lecture material for demonstrating logical fallacies. Just a few examples:
Foreign countries (since they believe in global warming) respect the US more for taking the lead in solving the problem.
Example of RED HERRING, APPEAL TO POPULARITY…and completely irrelevant as regards the truth or falsity of MMGW.
We get to give our kids a better, cleaner world and its profitable.
Example of RED HERRING, APPEAL TO EMOTION, APPEAL TO FEAR…and completely irrelevant as regards the truth or falsity of MMGW.
Are you all too lazy, wasteful and dense that you can’t understand that confronting climate change and environmental issues helps everyone?
Example of RED HERRING, STRAW MAN, APPEAL TO EMOTION, APPEAL TO RIDICULE…and completely irrelevant as regards the truth or falsity of MMGW.
Conservatives buy into the argument that if there is a 1% chance of WMDs in Iraq than we must go to war. Yet if there is a 99% chance global warming is happening we shouldn’t do anything until every last person is convinced. Genius, and by genius I mean you are all not very smart.
Example of RED HERRING, STRAW MAN, AD HOMINEM, APPEAL TO RIDICULE…and completely irrelevant as regards the truth or falsity of MMGW.
It means you’re idiots, which is why the educated can be so condescending to you.
Example of RED HERRING, STRAW MAN, AD HOMINEM, APPEAL TO POPULARITY, APPEAL TO EMOTION, APPEAL TO RIDICULE…and completely irrelevant as regards the truth or falsity of MMGW.
Even conservatives and the Bush administration are finally admitting.
Example of RED HERRING, APPEAL TO POPULARITY…and completely irrelevant as regards the truth or falsity of MMGW.
Even McCain understands it after he turned up his hearing aid and heard the data.
Example of RED HERRING, APPEAL TO POPULARITY, APPEAL TO RIDICULE…and completely irrelevant as regards the truth or falsity of MMGW.
Intelligent people don’t believe your backwards explanations of what is going on.
Example of RED HERRING, AD HOMINEM, APPEAL TO POPULARITY, APPEAL TO RIDICULE, APPEAL TO EMOTION…and completely irrelevant as regards the truth or falsity of MMGW.
The majority has spoke
Example of RED HERRING, APPEAL TO POPULARITY, and BAD GRAMMAR…and completely irrelevant as regards the truth or falsity of MMGW.
Taking into account your weakness at advancing relevant arguments, PRA, I’d suggest you refrain from questioning the intelligence of others.
Here’s a piece of advice – free of charge: next time your parent’s deposit money into your bank account, walk down to your Student Book Store and buy a book on Critical Thinking.
Virtually all of the scientific literature has since been made available online. If it was published it is almost certainly out there. You could at least give the names and institutions of the people you say made these claims.
As the link I provided showed the evidence when all of it is included did not and do not bear out his predictions. He was highly selective in the temperature data he chose to include and if a more complete data set is used the correlation is no longer significant. If sunspot activity were the primary mover in climate change global average temperatures would have been dropping since the mid 1980s. Read Lockwood and Fröhlich.
Don’t know…don’t care. I live in the North. A little warming would be nice.
The only green Uncle Al cares about is in his wallet. If any one has any good ideas on how to make a few quick bucks off this “science” count me in.
Jeb,
Since you’re playing the “gotcha” game,YOU find me links to actual climate model predictions made 20 years ago (unaltered,dated), showing ANY temperature predictions for 2005,2010,2015,etc. I bet they’re harder to find than you claim. Even then, I’m sure the “2 degree” models will be conveniently absent and only the ones that came close to being accurate will be available. Call me a cynic, but IMO it’s doubtful that anyone will re-publish their failed predictions on the internet.
I don’t have source material but I still have a memory. I remember that Bill Clinton bombed an aspirin factory because Saddam Hussein’s WMD production had to be stopped. Try sourcing that. You’ll find it – but not readily. You can believe me or not about the 2 degrees, it’s irrelevant. My point being that the crisis point has been pushed back for twenty years and is STILL continuing to be pushed back as the climate refuses to agree with the models.
I trust my memory far more than I trust people with an agenda. The references to WMD in this post and elsewhere in this thread proves that point. Climate model predictions are constantly changing and the climatologists lock the old models up in the cellar like a deformed baby and hope no one remembers what they said 5 years ago.
I don’t particularly care about ‘Climate Change’ when I see the immediate impact of policies so far… Third world families struggling. So far the only thing that seems to have been accomplished by saving the planet is making families pay for it by hiking the price of wheat.
Underneath the admonishments from politicians and scientists about how we need to save the planet there seems to lurk a far darker and more dangerous mood: anti Third Word sentiment. How dare China and India try to grow their economies and help their populations by burning coal. How dare poor families in Egypt actually try to feed their families with cheap imported wheat. Screw human life. Or should I say, “Screw human life that doesn’t live in the Western World.”
Of course, it’s perfectly fine to lecture other (poorer) countries about their wasteful ways because we in the West are clearly superior and didn’t spend the Industrial Revolution polluting every river in sight. And if some of ‘those’ people have to die to make it life pleasant for Westerners well… never mind.
My own prediction is that the same people who tell us we have to do our bit to save the world will be the same people complaining bitterly when actual polices impact their own lives in a very real and harsh way.
The Depression was probably the ultimate ‘green and healthy’ experience for many as they couldn’t really afford much of anything in the way of consumables (like gas for their car, or a house, or fatty calorie laden food) but I doubt anyone who lived through it would tell you how much they enjoyed it.
You made the claim so it is up to you to back it up. You could at least give the name and institution of the person who you say made the claim or does your memory not include who said it?
I will assume here you are talking about the cruise missile attack on the Al-Shifa pharmaceutical plant (correct me if I am incorrect in this assumption). This is easily and readily sourced (over 30,000 hits on Google including many news and opinion pieces and its own Wikipedia page). The rationale for the attack did not include Iraq, rather it was said to be linked to Bin Laden. If your memory of this incident and the climate lectures are of similar quality you’ll pardon me if I don’t take them at face value.
Now that’s just silly as is what follows.
This is a question for Boris. Will you please explain why there was a cooling trend from the mid 1940′-1970′s. Also am curious if there is a proven technique for knowing when to start your data from…such as 1998 or 1000 AD. Seeing as how there is some disagreement in the climate world about the validity of the “Hockey Stick’, please don’t use it as an example.
Boris, BTW, forgot to ask this question. Why was there a warming trend in the 1920-30′s?
“The rationale for the attack did not include Iraq, rather it was said to be linked to Bin Laden.”
You are correct about the Al-Shifa. Sorry I rederred to it by it’s derogatory reference(much the way SDI is referred to as “Star Wars”). Again this event has been been rewritten leaving only the convenient facts. You are correct that there was an assumed Al-qaeda link, but there was also an assumed Iraqi link as well.
As former Undersecretary of State Thomas Pickering outlined in this article. The Clinton administration was as much worried about Iraq getting chem weapons as Al-qaeda. And why not? Iraq had missile launching capabilities, that terrorist organizations lacked. Ok, since you demand it, here’s a link. http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/527uwabl.asp?pg=1
Gordon,
Thanks for not calling me a name
The explanation for the cooling seen form 1940 to 1970 is the prominence of sulphate aerosols from pollution. The Clean Air Act helped to get rid of the aerosols. Estimates of aerosols during that time are not very reliable, but the fact that the Northern hemisphere cooled (and the southern hemisphere didn’t, supports this theory (Unlike CO2, sulphate aerosols have a localized effect and are washed out of the atmosphere within a couple of weeks.
The rise in global temperatures in the early part of the century is probably due in part to CO2, but also to an increase in solar irradiation.
As for when to look at trends, 30 years is the standard for climate, but 20 is usually good. Or you could look at the entire temperature record (1850 for surface or 1979 for satellites). One hint that your trend might not be telling you the real story is if every other year around it tells a different story. Start in any other year in the 1990s and the trend is strongly positive. Cherry pick 1998 and it is STILL positive, but not by very much.
For all you global warming fools out there. I have some SPF 1000 sunscreen for you. It costs about $450 billion (the cost of the new cap/trade bill). In all seriousness this a simple model of the law of diminishing returns. Unless you can make a good case for amplification and positive feed back doubling our current levels of carbon dioxide will make only small differences in temperature. Of course there is no way that our climate has substantial positive feedback with carbon dioxide. Evidence? The earth has experienced significantly higher levels in the past (in excess of 10x higher) without creating a run away greenhouse effect which would be the result of high gain positive feedback.
For those of you who have trouble with math…..
SPF % passage % absorbed
1 100.0 0.0
2 50.0 50.0
4 25.0 75.0
8 12.5 87.5
15 6.7 93.3
30 3.3 96.7
60 1.7 98.3
100 1.0 99.0
200 0.5 99.5
500 0.2 99.8
1000 0.1 99.9
The aerosol effect cited for the cooling from from 1940 to 1970 has only been speculated. The IPCC cites it as the “most likely” cause for the 30 year cooling period. There has yet to be a quantatative explanation or description of this link. The truth is aerosol effect is one of the least understood variables in climate prediction. In some scenarios it actually can produce warming. (No references, go find them!)
The IPCC (not surprisingly) had to find an explanation that would not conflict with the over-arching theory of global warming. The aerosol effect can neither be confirmed or denied. Hence, the notion that if you can’t prove me wrong, I must be right. However in true scientific inquiry, one does not have to refute the assertion. It is the one making the claim that must produce the convincing evidence.
There has been no definitive proof that the 1940 to 1970 cooling was caused by aerosols. It may have been or may not.
As an example, if I cross a bridge and it collapses under me, you cannot say whether I was the cause without further investigation. I may have caused it or it may have been bad timing.
Dear All:
Several clarifications seem to be needed in this discussion. I offer the following.
Anthropogenic (i.e. man-made) global warming (AGW) stopped in 1998
Recovery from the Little Ice Age (LIA) halted in 1998 and global temperature has been almost stable since then. This recent global temperature stability is because warming of the northern hemisphere has been cancelled by cooling of the southern hemisphere in the global record.
AGW was supposed to be global, not hemispheric.
Nobody knows if the decade-long halt to global warming is temporary, but the following points warrant consideration.
Observation suggests there are several natural global temperature cycles that are overlaid on each other: and any global anthropogenic temperature effect must be overlaid on them.
One apparent cycle length is ~1500 years and since the time of Christ it has given us
the Roman Warm Period, then
the Dark Age Cool Period, then
the Medieval Climate Optimum, then
the Little Ice Age, and
the Present Warm Period.
Another apparent cycle length is ~60 years so globally there was
cooling to ~1910, then
warming to ~1940, then
cooling to ~1970, then
warming to 1998, followed by
no significant warming or cooling.
Is anthropogenic warming preventing the 30 years of global cooling that the 60-year cycle could be expected to provide from ~2000?
Or
Has the 1500 year cycle reached its peak so another long cooling trend is about to start?
Or
Is the apparent existence of the cycles an effect of randomness or of something else?
Or ….
Possible answers to these and similar questions deserve serious investigation.
What one can say is that the basis of AGW theory is challenged by the existing trends. AGW-promoters have repeatedly suggested that there would be a global warming trend with variable rate: none of them suggested there would be no global warming for a decade while one hemisphere cooled and atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration increased by ~5% (as has happened).
Keenselyside et al. say global warming will restart in 2015
The issue is simple. It is like this.
A horse-racing tipster predicted a horse would win the Derby, but that horse came last. Then, the tipster said he had amended his method and – using his amended method – he was confident that the same horse would win the Derby next year. Would anybody other than a fool believe him?
Now, compare that to the following.
Several teams made climate models and all those models predicted global warming with increased atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration. None – not one – of those models predicted that global warming would peak in 1998 then stop for the following decade despite atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration increasing by ~5%. But that is what has happened.
Now, one team has amended their model so it shows the cessation of global warming in 1998. Their amended model predicts that global warming will re-start in 1915. Does anybody other than a fool believe them?
Global cooling from ~1940 to ~1970 was induced by sulphate aerosols
The suggestion that sulphate cooling masked AGW warming for ~30 years after 1940 is an excuse that cannot be correct because of the warming effects of sulphate aerosols combined with soot particles.
My peer review for the most recent report (AR4) of the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) included the following comment on both drafts;
“Page 1-25 Chapter 1 Section 1.5.11 Line 30
For accuracy and completeness, after “… burning of fossil fuels” add “Additionally, it has been found that increases to sulphate aerosols combined with soot particles have a strong warming effect (0.55 Wm-2) greater than that of methane (0.48 Wm-2), and these combined particles are also linked with the burning of fossil fuels (ref. Jacobson MZ, Nature, vol. 409, 695-697 (2000)).””
But the published IPCC report was not amended in the light of my review comment.
Global climate models
It is not possible to do a physical lab. experiment that would demonstrate the temperature response of the Earth to a change in atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration. Such an experiment would require construction of a physical model of the entire Earth/ocean/atmosphere/biota system. Clearly, such a physical model is (and probably always will be) impossible.
However, general circulation models (GCMs) are computer models that are purported to be representations of the system. And “experiments” are conducted using these models to determine indications of the temperature response of the Earth to a change in atmospheric CO2 concentration. Personally, I think the claim that the GCMs are adequate representations is daft (the climate system is more complex than the human brain that nobody claims to be able to model).
The UN’s IPCC et al. assert the existence of ‘radiative forcing’ that – they say – governs all global temperature changes. This concept of ‘radiative forcing’ enables them to assert that GCMs can (and do) indicate the temperature response of the Earth to a change in atmospheric CO2 concentration.
‘Radiative forcing’ is inadequately defined but (according to IPCC) it is usually taken to be a change in the net radiative flux at the tropopause (i.e. the top of the troposphere which is the lowest layer of the atmosphere). Positive radiative forcing means rising global temperature and negative radiative forcing means falling global temperature.
If you think this explanation of GCM “experiments” is twaddle then I agree, but I am reporting what AGW-believers espouse.
One fact that I would point out is that the Sun has increased its output by ~30% in the 2.5 billion years since the Earth has had an oxygen-rich atmosphere. This is a ~30% rise in radiative forcing that has been provided by the Sun. So, if radiative forcing had a direct effect on the Earth’s surface temperature then the oceans would have boiled to steam long ago. Indeed, this fact alone should cause people to question the assertion that a postulated (e.g. by IPCC) increase of 0.4% to radiative forcing from a doubling of atmospheric CO2 concentration would have disastrous effects.
AGW-promotion is ‘religious’
I parodied this in the introduction to one of my presentations at the recent Heartland Institute climate conference in New York. Several of my contributions to the Conference in New York can be heard at http://www.heartland.org/NewYork08/audio.cfm
At the above URL an audio recording of the pertinent presentation can be heard by scrolling down to Tuesday 4 March, Session 8.45 – 10.15 am, Track 2 then clicking on Audio below my name.
Political motivations for AGW-promotion
I explain this in my responses to questions that can be heard by clicking on Audio after “Panel Q&A” at the bottom of the Session cited in the previous paragraph (above).
Evidence against the existence of AGW
Climate response to increased carbon dioxide in the air
There is no conclusive evidence that AGW is not happening. The existence of global warming (GW) is not evidence of anthropogenic – that is, man-made – global warming (AGW) because warming of the Earth does not prove that human activity warmed it. At issue is whether human activity is or is not affecting the changes to the Earth’s temperature that have always happened naturally.
But the fact that there is no conclusive evidence for AGW is not evidence that AGW is not happening. Simply, there is no conclusive evidence that AGW is happening, and there is no conclusive evidence that AGW is not happening, either.
However, it is known as a certain fact that the AGW projected by computer models of global climate (known as GCMs) is not happening. All the climate models show more warming in the upper troposphere than near the surface (especially distant from polar regions) as a result of increased radiative forcing from increased atmospheric greenhouse gas concentrations. However, measurements of temperatures in the troposphere (obtained from weather balloons) fail to show any such warming of the upper troposphere.
Nobody doubts that more CO2 in the atmosphere will increase radiative forcing, but AGW-proponents say this will cause the atmosphere to respond in a particular way. The pattern of the proposed response is a ‘fingerprint’ for AGW. Therefore, if that ‘fingerprint’ is absent – and it is absent – then any observed warming is not a result of the AGW they project.
We live in the troposphere, and the ‘fingerprint’ evidence is clear evidence that the man-made global warming projected by climate models is not happening.
Cause of increased carbon dioxide in the air
Atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration follows global temperature at all time scales
For example, Kuo et al. (Nature 393 (1990) ) showed that changes to the carbon dioxide cohere to the temperature changes and follow the temperature changes by months. Several other papers have since reported the same. . A cause cannot follow its effect but an effect may enhance its cause (i.e. positive feedback).
If human emissions of carbon dioxide were the direct cause of the recent rise in atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration then the clear evidence that carbon dioxide lags temperature at this time scale would not exist. This conclusion follows directly from the temperature-dependence of the carbon dioxide’s solubility in the oceans (cold water dissolves more carbon dioxide than warm water – as everyone who has opened a warm can of cola has discovered).
The anthropogenic emission fails to overcome the observed effect on atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration of the temperature-dependence of carbon dioxide’s solubility in the oceans. This failure of the anthropogenic emission to overcome the solubility effect is demonstrated by the fact that changes to the anthropogenic emission rate do not overwhelm the changes to the natural flux of carbon dioxide into the air: for example, the accumulation of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere continued when in two subsequent years the anthropogenic flux into the atmosphere decreased (as happened in the years 1973-1974, 1987-1988, and 1998-1999, for example).
Hence, since 1990 I have been proclaiming the following.
Anthropogenic global warming (AGW) presupposes that anthropogenic CO2 emissions are the direct cause of recent rise in atmospheric CO2 concentration. Hence,
1. the existence AGW would be denied if
2. rise in atmospheric CO2 concentration is natural and
3. the coherence of atmospheric CO2 concentration to global temperatue demonstrates that
4. rise in atmospheric CO2 concentration is natural
5. so the existence of AGW is denied by observations.
However, any imagined effect can be modelled in the absence of evidence of actual causal mechanisms. So, it is possible to model that the anthropogenic CO2 emissions are an indirect cause of recent rise in atmospheric CO2 concentration and this has been done (Rorsch A, Courtney RS & Thoenes D, ‘The Interaction of Climate Change and the Carbon Dioxide Cycle’ E&E v16no2 (2005)). I explained this in my presentation that can be heard at the URL I cite above.
Validity of the ‘Heartland List’ of scientists statements denying AGW
The list was complied by Marc Morano on behalf of the minority group of the US Senate Committee for Environmental Protection. Hence, the list is a political document.
Both the list and requests to be removed from the list need to be assessed in light of that knowledge.
The list provides quotations of individuals and says those quotations are against the AGW-alarmist consensus. As far as I am aware, all the quotations are accurate. (e.g. The quotes of my statements are accurate.)
I hope the above is helpful
Richard S Courtney
I don’t believe in global warming. The evidence just isn’t there. Politicians don’t believe in it. They personally do nothing to reduce their “carbon footprint” – Flying to conferences on climate change??? They merely use it as a tool to increase taxes. (Here in the UK in one year we will have a 240% increase in the tax we pay just to own a car, before we insure it and drive it on the road. For every $2.20 pence we pay for a litre of petrol,$1.80 of that will be paid in tax.)
As ever, there are people who ignore the facts and found science a bit tricky at school, but can see a bandwagon from 200 yards. People who take the invasion of Iraq and compare it to attitudes on global warming and then make erroneous political statements on those attitudes, without doing any research. In fact, there were 2 main allies, USA and Britain. The British government was, and is, socialist. That’s left wing, to save you looking it up.
So that ruins your argument a bit if you substitute “conservative” with “alliance of conservative and socialist” in your posts. And if your knowledge is that limited, and you do no research to back up your claims, then your posts are not worth reading. Have a nice day.
“Recovery from the Little Ice Age (LIA) halted in 1998 and global temperature has been almost stable since then.”
Oh, Richard, you claim to have a PhD, yet you cherrypick the year of the largest El Nino ever recorded. Your capacity for dishonesty is both shameless and breathtaking.
Boris:
I “claim” nothing. And the warming did stop in 1998.
The facts are as I stated.
Your lies and insults do not change the facts but they do demonstrate the paucity of your arguments.
Richard
Richard,
You are revealing your stupidity for all to see. You don’t know what an El Nino is? You don’t know what unforced variability is? You think that the CO2 from burning fossil fuels went to Venus? You think the CO2 in the atmosphere came from the ocean, even though CO2 is rising in the ocean?
You believe some dumb, dumb, things Richard. Or you are a liar.
So, America and Americans can continue to consume as they please, and it will have no effect on the planet.
God forbid though is the Indians or the Chinese dare to eat more rice or even meat (that will be shocking !), as they will cause shortages everywhere !! Its OK that they have been producing cars and parts for USA and Europe for decades, but, if they dare to produce cars for their own use, the world will be instantly heated up !
Bush and Ms Rice need to think again.
Uncontrolled human activity, bad plitical leadership and blind faith in “market economy” has run the planet down. Look at any pictures of any part of the globe since the 50s and you will see the result of human activity. It doesn’t matter who pollutes, we all suffer in the end.
Boris (or whatever your real name is):
I posted to this forum in an attempt to provide some clarity by providing facts. All the facts I stated are correct and can be easily checked by anybody.
I repeat. The facts are as I have stated here as anybody can check for themselves, and the poverty of your arguments is demonstrated by your resorting to lies and insults instead of addressing those facts.
I am disappointed that the moderators of this forum permit your personal abuse that I am now answering for the last time because I have much better things to do.
Of course I know what ENSO and unforced variability are (I wonder if you do).
The anthropogenic emission of carbon dioxide is a trivial addition to the carbon cycle and is lost in the bulk of the carbon in the cycle. If you want to try to understand this then read my publications (yes, they are peer reviewed and I provided a reference to one) or you can listen to the audio at the URL I cited here.
You clearly fail to understand the ocean data. Incidentally, ocean temperatures (as well as atmospheric temperatures) have been falling in recent years.
As for stupidity and “dumb things”, I suggest that you read your postings here. And your implying that I am a liar is a case of ‘the pot calling the kettle black’.
Richard
Additionally, I am dismayed that the moderators of this
Richard,
Stop the childish indignation. You have spread your lies and ignorance all over the internet and you are somehow shocked when someone has the stones to call you on it?
Cherrypicking a specific year is dishonest, especially if you know what unforced variability is. Since you do, one can only conclude that you are being dishonest. Couple that with the fact that you are paid by the coal industry and it’s not hard to discern your motives.
As for your “published” research, an unindexed journal that publishes garbage will only impress the rabid partisans that inhabit this site. How many libraries carry that journal? ten? That’s some outstanding research, Richard. You are truly enlightening the masses.
If you continue to lie and spread stupidity as you have, don’t be surprised when people point it out.
Say Boris,
Thanks for your reply concerning warming and cooling in the 20th century. However, Waller stated in a follow up post that there is no definitive proof that aerosols were the cause of the cooling from the 1940′s -1970′s. Is there definitive proof to answer this question. Also, your reply concerning the warming in the 1920′s-1930′s was somewhat vague. Your answer to my question concerning, where to start your data from in order to plot a graph left me confused. Who was it that decided that 30 years is a reliable data period. Why isn’t 50 years, 100 years, or 1000 years used? Looking forward to your response.
“So, America and Americans can continue to consume as they please, and it will have no effect on the planet.”
This comment really exhibits the underlying anti-Western and anti-American sentiment that is the core of global warming theology.
It matters little to GW zealots what the actual effect of CO2 is on the climate. They have a sledge hammer and they’re going to use it. It’s about taking natural variation and attributing it to man, so we can blame someone. And the someone is the US. It’s about blaming America’s greed, consumerism, and taking “more than her share of the pie”. Now, we punish them for their greed by wrecking their economy.
At best Kyoto and Cap-and-Trade programs are nothing but pure socialism. A tax on the rich.
At worst CW advocacy is Gaia worship. We have harmed mother earth and will be punished. I can’t tell you how many shows I seen and stories I’ve read with this theme. “Man is the cancer.” Earth is curing herself. What a screwed up view. Guess what? Without man, no one is there TO CARE about earth, Gaia, the pristine planet or any of that.
With so little proof of cause and effect, I’m frightened by how many people believe this druid nonsense. Maybe I can talk about God destroying San Franciso (Sodom by the Sea) for it’s wicked ways. Now when the big one hits I’ll say “See, God was offended and punished the evil doers.” You GW people have about the same evidencial case.
I feel sorry for people who have consern for the environment, but are not econuts, or watermelons. Little do they realize how much infomation has been withheld, how the data has been cherry-picked, and the outright lies made by the GW crowd and covered by the leftest media. They think they are doing good but they are just pawns.
Everyone is bitching about $4 gas. How much do they think it will be when the carbon crusaders get their way? $8? $10?
Gordon,
No, there is no definitive proof that aerosols caused the cooling. This is true. But it is the only theory that matches the observed facts so far. It appears quite likely that the aerosols cooled the planet, but remember that science does not deal in absolute proofs.
Remember, other theories–the oceans, the sun–have been falsified for that period.
Re: 1920-1930 I don’t know why it is vague. CO2 was rising as was solar irradiance and this caused a slight warming.
50 years is fine, as is 100. The key is that the period must be long enough so that internal weather fluctuations roughly cancel out. 30 years is enough time to do that. If you do an analysis over shorter time frames, you have to take into account ocean fluctuations and other weather “noise”. If we had reliable temperature readings going back 1000 years, that would fine too.
“the outright lies made by the GW crowd”
Are you talking about the NAS or the Royal Society here? If you think scientists are that corrupt, here’s some advice: never take a pill or get on a plane.
You know, since you stated earlier, that multiple cycles are overlapping and that La Niña/El Niño have strong effects on measured temperatures. To choose a strong El Niño peak as your starting date is at best disingenuous.
Nonsense. The sulfate emissions (net cooling) virtually ended, but soot (net warming) continues to be pumped into the atmosphere. That a net cooling agent stopped being added while a net warming agent continued to be added and warming ensued does not in any way run counter to the hypothesis that sulfates were responsible for the prior cooling.
Which would provide more evidence for the need to limit these emissions.
Yet soot on its own has a warming effect of 0.9 Wm-2. Remove the sulfates and what it left?
That does not follow.
Again, nonsense. To postulate that virtually the entire scientific community and more specifically climate science community is under some religious spell is hogwash.
Boris,
Is it true that NASA GISS pegged 1998 as the hottest year of the 20th century and then had to recant as it was determined that 1934 was the hottest year? Were the 1930′s one of the hottest decades in the 20th century? What were the CO2 levels in the 30′s compared to the 90′s? Can it be stated that land based temperature measurement is accurate. I ask this because NASAGISS, as I understand it, adjusts their data and temperatures are often shown to be higher than the other reporting agencies.
Dear Gordon Andelin:
You ask Boris why 30 years is chosen as a climate definition. Clearly, you are not likely to get a proper answer from that source, so in an attempt to help I offer the following.
You expand your question by asking; “Why isn’t 50 years, 100 years, or 1000 years used?” In fact, all these periods are used for climate assessments, and to understand why one needs to know what climate is.
The UN Intergovernmental on Climate Change (IPPC) defines “climate” in its Glossary: Appendix 1: as follows.
“Climate in a narrow sense is usually defined as the “average weather”, or more rigorously, as the statistical description in terms of the mean and variability of relevant quantities over a period of time ranging from months to thousands or millions of years. The classical period is 30 years, as defined by the World Meteorological Organization (WMO). These quantities are most often surface variables such as temperature, precipitation, and wind. Climate in a wider sense is the state, including a statistical description, of the climate system.”
Please note that the definition says climate may be considered over “a period of time ranging from months to thousands or millions of years”.
The “classical period” defined by the WMO is 30 years and it was chosen for historical and pragmatic reasons during the Geophysical Year of 1958, and in 1958 it was judged that 30years of climate data had been accumulated.
The establishment of a “classical period” permits a standard length of time for comparison purposes. So, for example, the global temperature data of GISS, GHCN and HadCRUT are each presented as “anomalies” (i.e. differences) from a 30-year period.
However, 30 years is an unfortunate choice for several reasons. For example, it is not a multiple of the 11 year solar cycle.
Importantly, 30 years is only the “classical period” that is used when establishing data sets (such as the GISS, GHCN and HadCRUT temperature series) that may need to be compared, and – as the IPCC definition says – other periods (both longer and shorter) may be assessed. Indeed, in its 1994 report the IPCC compares 5 year periods.
I hope this helps.
Richard
Another question for Boris: referring to temperature trends.
Would a graph that used temperature proxies and anecdotal evidence that started at the year 1000 show a rising trend for temperature?
I find no mention in this article, nor these hostile posts of the Aqua Earth Observer, the weather satellite that the United States sent up in 2002, at great expense, to study global climate change. This is the only satellite studying climate change, no other country has sent one aloft (what a surprise) and it is the best source of the information that we have.
So:
1) what does it measure?
2) what is it showing?
To Richard S. Courtney:
Thanks for the explanation of how the 30 year period came into being.
Jeb:
I am not a “coal industry lobbyist”. I get nothing from any coal industry.
Anyway, how would it change the facts I stated if I were “a coal industry lobbyist”. Is a NASA or NOAA employee a US government lobbyist?
The attempt to smear me shows how little you trust your dispute of my statements.
And my statements are correct. For example, it is not “disingenuous” to choose 1998 as the year when the last period of warming stopped. It is simply a fact that 1998 was the year when the warming stopped. You may not like the fact, but that does not alter the truth of it. Perhaps you object to my saying this because you find it to be an inconvenient truth.
And I was discussing the period since the warming stopped. I said nobody knows if the warming will resume, and I stated a series of questions that any scientist would want answered in response to the fact that global warming stopped in 1998.
Of course, if all I was doing was saying, “There is not much warming” then I could have picked 1941. Since 1941 there was ooling, then warming, then cooling with the result that present global temperature is very similar to what it was in 1941. But I was discussing the fact that global warming has stopped and I started at 1998 because that is when it stopped.
And it is not “nonsense” to state that the sulphate aerosol excuse for the cooling from 1940 to 1970 “does not stand up”. I stated why it “does not stand up”, and I cited the reference. Another study published only last month says the same. Sadly, it is ‘par for the course that AGW-advocates call the science “nonsense” because it does not fit their case.
The remainder of your posting is similar to the mouthings of Boris (perhaps you are Boris), and I will not waste more time refuting such drivel.
Richard
AWG not a religion?
Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck….
Evidently, you think that scientists don’t have political, personal, economic, and religious (or anti-religious) biases and never engage in group-think mentality. Career preservation, ego, and dogmatism never cloud research.
I suppose you believe that everything you hear on the news is objective unbiased reporting of the facts. Reporters never inject personal opinions and news organizations can’t have a philosophy or viewpoint.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but scientists are as fallable as any other humans, that’s why the scientific method relies on empirical evidence not consensus and grandstanding.
Einstein once said that 100 scientist could be proven wrong by one fact. It amazes me that some would suggest that the author has no business commenting on global warming because he is not a scientist. That is illogical and fallacious. Argumentum Ad Verecundium, an appeal to authority, is saying that an argument is wrong simply because the person making the argument is not an “authority” on the subject that is being debated. If the author’s views are to be discounted and ignored because he is not an authority in the field with a college degree than we would have to apply the same principal to Al Gore because he is not a scientist. To say the pro global warming camp’s arguments are correct because an organization or group of scientist say its so is another appeal to authority. There are thousands of scientists, including some of the most distinguished and eminent in the field of climatology, who disagree with the theory of global warming.
Jim Hansen of NASA, a leading proponent of the theory of global warming, recently changed the listing of the hottest years on record because of a Y2K error in his calculations. Now, according to NASA’s official website, the hottest year was in the 1930′s. Also, other years in the top ten changed. Moreover Michael Mann’s infamous hockey stick has been thoroughly discredited and debunked. In fact, the IPCC has airbrushed the hockey stick out of its literature. The medieval warm period, when Southern Greenland was green and populated by vikings, was warmer than the current period. So also was the Roman warm period and the Holocene maximum was much warmer than now. In fact, the three previous interglacial periods were warmer than the current warm period. If we take the warmest point of the holocene maximum and plot the warmest point in every warm period there is a negative or downward trend in temperatures. We are near the end of the Holocene and we will almost certainly go into another ice age perhaps starting now but most likely within the next 1,500 years.
We came out of the little ice age in 1850 and the world has warmed to a degree that is well within natural variability. Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant but is a critical component in the process of photosynthesis. The earth is starved for CO2 when compared to historical norms and averages. In the late Ordovician Period there was over 4,400 parts per million of CO2, more than an order of magnitude greater when compared to current CO2 levels in the atmosphere, and yet the world was in the grips of one of the coldest ice ages ever. The effects of CO2 is logarithmic. The per unit effect decrease with greater volume. If the preindustrial level of CO2 were doubled it would have an extremely minute impact on temperatures. It is simple math. Just review the matter with any physics professor.
Regarding the analogy of weapons of mass destruction and the IPCC’s degree of certainty as to mans culpability in the rise of temperatures which has occurred since the end of the little ice age, the analogy is fallacious and illogical. First, most political leader in the US and UK believed that there were WMD’s in Iraq. Saddam Hussein stated that he wanted the Iranians to believe that for deterrent purposes. Also, the UNIPCC states in its summary for policy makers a 90% probability, not a 99% probability, that man is responsible for most of the global warming. Therefore, the premise is wrong and non sequiter and a red herring. Moreover, when one reads the various assessment reports contained in the main body of the document the numbers range from in the 60% + area to 90%. Also, authors in the main report often wrote that there is no way to state with any degree of certainty that man’s actions are responsible for temperature changes. Some authors had to threaten the IPCC with litigation to get there names removed from the list. By the way, the list of approximately 1500 people cited by the IPCC as experts contains many people who are not recognized experts in the field of climatology or even degreed scientists. True, you do not have to be a degreed scientist to have a valid opinion but it is an outright lie to state that everyone on the list is an expert.
None of the predictions made by the IPCC have come to fruition. Thirty years ago they stated that if something was not done within ten years run away global warming would occur. Twenty and ten years ago they said the same thing. Weather balloons and satellite data confirm a slight temperature decrease since 1998. When the earth experienced warming during an extremely strong El Nino it was credited to global warming. Now that the Earth is cooling in part to a La Nina we are told by the AGW forces that it is a variance in weather. The theory of global warming states that the middle to upper troposphere would warm faster and to a higher degree than the lower troposphere and it has not. Global warming theory states that the oceans would continue to warm and they have slightly cooled. What is really amazing is that the IPCC acknowledges that temperature increases precede rises in the level of CO2 by hundreds of years and the IPCC also admits that it cannot explain why. It is simple cause and effect: if increased levels of CO2 are responsible for increases in temperature than a rise in CO2 levels would precede a rise in temperatures. Instead it is the other way around.
Global Warming is an animist nature worshipping religion that posits that man is evil and that animals, nature and the environment are more important than humans. This is not a straw man argument but is a statement based on the published works of the various leaders of the environmental movement. Either there is a God and we were given dominion of the earth or Darwin is right in regards to his theory of evolution and we humans have hit the darwinian super lotto and we are at the top of the food chain via natural selection. I am an open minded person who refuses to stoop to Ad Hominem attacks. It is sad that so many have done so in their postings.
Al Gore would have us believe that the debate is over. The diversity of opinions expressed in this comment section would suggest otherwise. In a recent debate hosted by New York’s IQ squared debating society, the pro anthropogenic global warming forces were trounced as was shown by a survey taken prior to and immediately after the debate. In a recent poll regarding the upcoming US presidential elections zero (0) percent of the respondents rated global warming as the most important issue. I believe when politicians try to reach into the American taxpayers wallet that will change.
I do care about the environment. Saddest of all will be when, in the post environmentalist world, there is a legitimate claim made by them and that it will be ignored as the vast majority dismisses their claims while reminiscing about the story of the Boy Who Cried Wolf.
One question I would like to share with my fellow readers: if global warming is such an infallible truth why don’t the pro anthropogenic forces engage the skeptics in a series of well publicized debates and show the world the validity of their argument? Maybe they are still reeling from their defeat in New York.
Here is a list of over 22,000 scientists who disagree with man-made global warming. They are meteorologists, climatologists, and others with the training to make an informed decision. I have signed this petition as well, as a meteorologist with over 15 years experience.
1) CO2 makes up only 1/4 of 1% of all gases in the atmosphere, and has been much higher in the planets’ past, during other interglacial periods as shown by ice cores from Antartica.
2) water vapor is a much more potent greenhouse gas, and is responsible for over 95% of any warming and heres the kicker nearly 100% of it is NATURALLY OCCURING meaning we cant do anything about it if we wanted to.
3) methane is another much more potent greenhouse gas and is released from melting permafrost and from cows (belch and flatulence)…so cutting back on Big Mac cales would do much more for anyu warming…even when it appears that the warming has ended and the planet is now cooling…we are back to levels of temperatures experienced in the 1930′s. I predict a very cold winter coming up in most areas of the world again like last year…except for western europe, mainly due to little to no sunspot activity and the current state of the ocean currents that control the climate much more than greenhouse gases do.
whoops forgot the url for the global warming petition.
http://www.climatescienceinternational.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=62&Itemid=1
Are you not the Richard S Courtney that is a Technical Editor for CoalTrans International (journal of the international coal trading industry) and was a Senior Material Scientist of the National Coal Board (also known as British Coal) and a Science and Technology spokesman of the British Association of Colliery Management (a coal industry union)? Were you not involved in the Leipziq Declaration? Apologies if you are not this Richard S Courtney who is clearly a mouthpiece for the coal industry.
I prefaced my statement by saying that it did not relate directly to the validity of your arguments. Further I withheld comment about “Energy&Environment” as a publication until you attempted to give it more weight than it merited.
You say you are familiar with El Niño / Southern Occilation and are aware that multiple factors are involved in warming or cooling climate. You then choose a known peak El Niño year (with its accompanied warming) to assign as the end of global warming. This is at best disingenuous.
An imperfect but illustrative analogy would be the energy usage of a family of four. Their energy usage has been steadily climbing over the years. Periodically they have house-guests that stay for a few weeks or months and cause spikes in their energy usage. After the most recent extended visit that caused a peak in usage the household usage plateaued for a period. It did not drop to pre-house-guest levels, but plateaued at the house-guest level without the house-guests present. What you have done is quite similar to choosing to begin tracking energy usage at this peak of house-guest usage and to then claim that since a plateau followed that the family’s energy usage had peaked and has since held steady, therefor the family is not using more energy than before. While this may be true in some technical sense it is disingenuous.
You state that it does not stand up because when sulfates are combined with soots they produce a forcing of 0.55 Wm-2 when soot by itself produces a forcing of 0.90 Wm-2. When soot in isolation produces ~60% more warming than in concert with sulfates that is not an argument against sulfate cooling. It is an argument that soot warming can overwhelm sulfate cooling.
In the end it amounts to an argument that soots should be more strongly considered when confronting global climate change. That is an argument with some merit and was the point of Jacobson’s 2000 article you referenced and his later work. Of course you probably know that. Referencing this in an attempt to dismiss AGW is disingenuous and assumes that the reader either will not or cannot (no easy access to subscriptions) read and understand the article referenced.
Scientists are people and are subject to human frailties and fallibility that is why the method and peer review are so important. On subjects relating directly to their expertise I trust scientists far more than I do politicians and lobbyists. When consensus develops around a particular hypothesis it is something to consider. When other competing hypotheses fail and one does not that is also something to consider. When one hypothesis is supported by hundreds of peer reviewed articles and the other is supported by a few agenda driven publications I tend to give the former more weight. To be accused of religious thinking for supporting the former in favor of the latter is laughable. That is not to say that there are not many people on both sides of this issue whose thinking is religious or muddied, but that the thinking of the relevant scientists is not.
also check out this site showing the extent of of sea ice and snowcover over the world. You can caompare side by side images of the past northern hemisphere ice/snow (any day back into 1979 to the current map.) I just did, and it’s shocking how much more snowcover there still is this year in northern Canada and Siberia as apposed to any may 15th since 1979.
http://igloo.atmos.uiuc.edu/cgi-bin/test/print.sh
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/
I think you have that turned around, most of us “skeptics” have no agenda (I have yet to receive a check from anyone nor is my career at stake). On the other hand I see agenda throughout the AGW camp (Gov’t grants, censure, green-tech investment, socialism, public speaking, organization influence).
I have been followimg this for almost 20 years. In this time, the following points have become clear to me:
1) The case for CO2 as the primary driving force in climate change is extraordinarily weak and overemphasized.
2) There is a huge economic “punishment” factor in all proposed climate “fixes” which will yield virtually no results, yet cripple economies.
3) The climate community overstates their knowledge of climate forcing factors and over-sells the surety of their predictions.
4) Climate models are GIGO
Bottom line:
Based on 20 years of what I seen, heard, and read from the AWG community, I’m not willing to bet the farm on the half-assed science.
1970s Leftist: The earth’s temperature is dropping and we’re all going to freeze to death!
1970s Sucker: Oh my God! Well, what should we do?
1970s Leftist: Don’t worry! More regulation, more taxation, and more government will take care of it!
1970s Sucker: OK! Let’s do it!
(fast forward 10 years)
1980s Sucker: Hey, whatever happened to that global cooling thing?
1980s Leftist: Never mind that now! Don’t you know that there’s a famine coming that’s going to kill a billion people?!?
1980s Sucker: What?!? Oh my God! Well, what should we do?
1980s Leftist: Don’t worry! More regulation, more taxation, and more government will take care of it!
1980s Sucker: OK! Let’s do it!
(fast forward 10 years)
1990s Sucker: Hey, whatever happened to that global famine thing?
1990s Leftist: Never mind that now! Don’t you know that there’s a hole in the ozone layer that’s going to give you cancer and burn your face off?!?
1990s Sucker: What?!? Oh my God! Well, what should we do?
1990s Leftist: Don’t worry! More regulation, more taxation, and more government will take care of it!
1990s Sucker: OK! Let’s do it!
(fast forward 10 years)
Present-Day Sucker: Hey, whatever happened to that ozone hole thing?
Present-Day Leftist: Never mind that now! Don’t you know that the earth is heating up and we’re all going to drown with the polar bears?!?
Present-Day Sucker: Now wait a minute…a little while ago, you said that the earth was gonna freeze. What gives?
Present-Day Leftist: How DARE you question me? I bet you don’t believe the Holocaust happened either, do you, you racist, zealot Nazi?!?!?
Present-Day Sucker: No, I just….
Present-Day Leftist: Silence! The Great and Terrible Gore has spoken!
Used to be that we’d have at least a century or two between Doomsday scenarios – now we get a new one every decade.
What a pathetic, frightened little species we are.
go to junkscience.com for a consolidation of ‘climate change’ news stories on the internet daily. Its the best place to see what is going on in the news from all sources day to day, and one of the few places you are able to find articles from REAL scientists the MSM never picks up.
Gordon,
No, 1934 was not hotter than 1998. Not even close.
I suggest reading Spencer Weart’s the Discovery of Global Warming at the American Institute of Physics site.
Jeb, Boris, Greenpeace Mouthpiece, or whatever your true name is:
I have had my snout in the AGW trough for several because that is where the easy research funds now are. AGW research is very big business and its shills include several NGOs and the Executives of the US National Academy of Sciences and the UK Royal Society. The shills operate to defend the gravy train that I and many others have boarded. And there is a lot of gravy on the train. Governments are spending more than $5 billion per year on AGW and the US government alone is spending $2 billion per year on it. This does not include the spending by industry (all industry research on AGW is pro-AGW because all industries fear another Brent Spar Incident). And it does not include spending by NGOs that are promoting fear of AGW as a method to ‘rattle their collecting boxes’ at the public.
I am one of the 2000 (or whatever figure is now asserted) ‘UN climate scientists’. I was asked to Peer Review the latest scientific report (AR4) of the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) by the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Association (NOAA) and the IPCC Chairman, Rajendra Pachauri, wrote to me to ask me to peer review the IPCC’s recent Synthesis Report.
The above should be all that anybody here needs to know about me. Your personal smears of me are a clear demonstration that you are trying to ‘shoot the messenger’ because you know the statements I have made in this forum are undeniably true.
I will not address your silly disputations of the facts of climate science. Everything I have said in this forum can be very simply checked by its readers and they can judge the veracity of my statements for themselves: all those statements are irrefutable facts that anybody can verify with great ease.
Also, I will not respond to your several personal lies about me. However, you ask me some personal questions that could mislead because they were true in the past. So, for the benefit of others, I will answer those questions.
The assertion that I am – or for several years could have been – a “coal industry lobbyist” is not merely wrong: it is plain daft. Would anybody lobby for an industry that ceased to exist more than a decade ago, or for a journal that had made them redundant? But I was part of British Coal that UK government closed down in 1995, and I did work for CoalTrans International until 2002.
So, to answer you specific personal questions that were:
“Are you not the Richard S Courtney that is a Technical Editor for CoalTrans International (journal of the international coal trading industry) and was a Senior Material Scientist of the National Coal Board (also known as British Coal) and a Science and Technology spokesman of the British Association of Colliery Management (a coal industry union)? Were you not involved in the Leipziq Declaration? Apologies if you are not this Richard S Courtney who is clearly a mouthpiece for the coal industry.”
I was the contributing Technical Editor of CoalTrans International until 2002, and I wrote all the coal science and environmental articles pertaining to coal usage. It is not surprising that I was asked to do this because I authored the chapter on coal in Kempes Engineers Year Book.
Until the National Coal Board (also known as British Coal) ceased to exist in 1995 I was its Senior Material Scientist.
I was the Science and Technology spokesman of the British Association of Colliery Management (a coal industry union) until 2000.
I ceased all those activities several years ago and I have obtained no monies or support from any of those activities since.
I helped to draft the Leipzig Declaration. It was drafted as a result of the Leipzig Climate Conference where I was invited to present a keynote paper.
I will not answer anymore personal questions from anonymous smear mongers.
Richard
Amen Richard!
The AGW people try to discredit anyone with legitimate concerns by ad hominem attacks. So what if you were paid by coal, or oil? Without global warming, climotologists would be out of work. Period. How’s that for dishonest motives? The ranks have swelled from a handful to thousands since the global warming scare began. And how about that govertment teat? Billions of $ in grants. That money would dry up in a heart beat if it was discovered to be a false alarm. The people with the most vested in global warming are climatologists, the so-called experts.
No the people who should be viewed in highest suspect are the ones doing the research. How convenient! That’s letting the fox rule the chicken coup.
Mr. Courtney, thanks for your long and thoughtful posts. They distill information I’ve used to dissuade people from buying into the millenialist-type global warming fear-mongering. It’s undeniable that humans have an effect on the weather, the question is the degree.
I have a question for advocates of global warming alarmism: Credible sources estimate humans account for .28% of greenhouse effect. (see Water Vapor Rules the Greenhouse System) What percentage of greenhouse effect do YOUR sources estimate is anthropegenic? All of it? Haven’t warm periods happened before naturally?
If humans account for .28% of greenhouse effect, how many human deaths would be acceptable to lessen that .28%? How many trillions of dollars is it worth? Ending all carbon emissions immediately would surely result in crippling the world economy and starving many. The world hunger we see from growing food for “cleaner” ethanol fuel is only the beginning of dislocations this alarmism will result in.
And remember, every dollar we spend on global warming alarmism, is a dollar we won’t spend on protecting species, countering real pollution, saving habitats, health care, poverty, etc.. To waste significant resources is to waste lives.
The global temperature has apparently declined for 30 years (creating fears of an ice age); rose for 20 years until 1998, (creating fears of global warming; and fallen or stayed in stasis for ten years, with forcasts for cooling for another decade or maybe three depending on what IPCC warmsit you listen to.
So down 50 years, up 20 years, and 20 more years of cooling predicted too. 70-30 its not warming. If the prediction is right, (doubtful) 90-20 its not warming.
Sorry Charlie. The new religion, the same old blarney dressed up in “scientific sounding” hellfire and damnation, is peddled by a Baptist Divintity School flunkout Preacherman who flunked one of the two science courses he ever took; and got a ‘D’ in the only other one.
He must know what he is talking about. Not. He must be a Prophet, er, Profit.
It is obvious the world is Doomed! Dying in a Hellish heat wave. Does that ‘Olde Tyme
Religion’ sound a lot like the ‘New Tyme Religion’? Oh ! and send money. Now that thats constant.
Boris,
Am sorry to say I didn’t read Spencer Weart’s the Discovery of Global Warming at the American Institute of Physics site. However, I did see this info from NASAGISS:
GISS U.S. Temperatures (deg C) in New Order
Year Old New
1934 1.23 1.25
1998 1.24 1.23
1921 1.12 1.15
2006 1.23 1.13
1931 1.08 1.08
1999 0.94 0.93
1953 0.91 0.90
1990 0.88 0.87
1938 0.85 0.86
1939 0.84 0.85
Here’s the old leaderboard.
Year Old New
1998 1.24 1.23
1934 1.23 1.25
2006 1.23 1.13
1921 1.12 1.15
1931 1.08 1.08
1999 0.94 0.93
1953 0.91 0.90
2001 0.90 0.76
1990 0.88 0.87
1938 0.85 0.86
It stated now that 1934 was the hottest year and that 4 years during the 1930′s were in the top 10. Your last post stated that…No, 1934 was not hotter than 1998. Not even close. Who is correct here?
Don’t even try and figure it out Gordon, Both NOAA, NCDC, and GISS have been busy revising old temperature records (always downward)and changing 20 year old satellite data (again downward) claiming that wrong algoriths were used or the heat island effect was over-valued, etc.
Your data table was created when they were caught with their hands in the cookie jar and had to actually go back to the real data and analyze it with accepted statistic methods, instead of methods that give you the results you want (think Hockey-Stick Graph).
They’re back at it again however claiming that 9 out of 10 of the hottest years have been since 1998. Funny, NOAA thinks 2007 is the 5th warmest year on record, while NCDC claims it is the 2nd. If this stuff is as cut-and-dried as they claim it is (it isn’t), they could at least agree on these points.
You’d be amazed how much something like temperature data can be manipulated anyway you want it. It depends again on fudging factors and the method of analysis. Something that most people aren’t aware of.
The more you research climate research, the more disgusting it gets.
For a slam-dunk, end-of-discussion, case-closed issue, there seems to be a lot of people still talking.
rvastar’s post made me chuckle. I too, recall that people have been predicting impending planetary doom forever. As a kid in the 70s I remember reading that sometime in the near future California was going to fall off into the ocean when the big one hit, and an ocean was going to open up in the middle of the US due to something…volcano? earthquake? Don’t recall.
I also remember all the talk of the inevitable nuclear winter that was to come. And what about all the dire population explosion predications? India should be a wasteland, and we should all be eating our young by now. While in college in the 80s, I learned that the growing debt crisis in the third world was going to destroy the world economy heralding in a major worldwide depression any day now!!!
And then came the 90s, I grew up, and the world did not come to an end.
Back then serious people viewed those prognosticators as sensationalist quacks; or simply, economists*. Today apparently they are called climate scientists.
(And don’t get me started on the “starve a child, save the planet” nutjobs who think the world would be much better off without ANY people on it. They are setting the environmentalist movement back to the stone age.)
Me- I’ll worry about something else like, I dunno… Yellowstone Park exploding. It’s gonna happen. I saw it on HBO… or was it Showtime?
*(One of my majors was in economics so I think I’m entitled to make that joke).
Waller said:
“You’d be amazed how much something like temperature data can be manipulated anyway you want it. It depends again on fudging factors and the method of analysis. Something that most people aren’t aware of.”
Not just temperature data. Any raw data. Case in point- I was an intern in a public housing agency in NYC back in the 80s. The head of the dept. got some statistical data showing a positive trend. His words to the analyst, “I need the number to be negative. See what you can do.” I remember it because it blew my mind. Yes, stats can be manipulated to show whatever you want them to.
Richard: “…it is not “disingenuous” to choose 1998 as the year when the last period of warming stopped.”
Yes it is, because if you had chosen 1997 or 1999 you could not claim that global warming had “stopped”. Fact is, on a global scale the decade from 1998 has been around 0.8 deg C warmer on average than the first decade of the 20th century. In other words, the long-term trend is upwards.
Levels of CO2 in the atmosphere have increased by at least 30 percent over the past 200 years, almost all due to human activities. CO2 has the effect of retaining heat in the atmosphere, hence the warming.
On a geological scale, this is very fast warming. A warming gas is unstable, hence the concern over the long-term effects. The safest and most effective way of mitigating the warming is to reduce emissions of CO2.
You and Boris (not me) had already begun trading the insults before I responded to you.
Pointing out your ties to the coal industry and the Leipzig Declaration are not ad hominem in any meaningful way. Beyond this I have only addressed your arguments and assertions. You have spent precious little time addressing these in preference to the discussion of your industry connections and insulting Boris, Greenpeace, and myself (I am connected to neither). As far as I am concerned more time than necessary has been spent on that and I must give you credit for playing the victim card well. Congratulations on that.
Now if you would respond the the substance of my previous post.
I see you hold onto the 1998 date despite the obvious anomaly of a strong El Niño that year. Choosing an anomalous year particularly the year of such a strong anomaly provides misleading information yet you continue to do so. An example to illustrate the value of using 1998 as the start date would be to choose start dates before and after 1998. Choose any of the three years before or after 1998 (1995-97 ot 1999-2002) as the start date and there is a clear warming trend continuing to the present.
You have also failed to address your misuse of Jacobson’s research to say something that he has demonstrated disagreement with.
The Leipzig Declaration and the minority report both misrepresented the views of scientists included without their consent or knowledge.
Eddie,
How does the decade since 1998 compare with the decade of 1931-1940? Is it not true that showing a trend of temperature on a chart is affected by the start date of the data? It has been pointed out to me that CO2 has a logarithmic effect. As more CO2 is added to the atmosphere, it’s effect diminishes. Your post raises these questions.
Dear Eddie:
Thank you for trying to debate your case (and for not joining the clack of Boris and Jeb whose further postings here I shall not answer). We learn from disagreement, but nothing is learned from being disagreeable.
I hope the following adequately addresses your points to me.
You assert that I was “disingenuous” to consider the period since 1998 when the last period of warming stopped, saying to me;
“if you had chosen 1997 or 1999 you could not claim that global warming had “stopped”.”
You ignore my explanation of why consideration of the period since 1998 is very proper. Please read it.
All AGW predictions were for continuous global warming with variable rate: none of the predictions were for a decade of near stasis with slight cooling (as has happened). I was addressing why global Warming stopped in 1998.
It would be cherry-picking to assess the periods from 1997 or 1999 because the start of the present cooling period was 1998. The Earth was still warming in 1997, it peaked in 1998 (an El Nino year) and although its temperature plummeted in 2000 (as the El Nino passed) by 2001 it had recovered to almost reach the high of 1998. The Earth has been cooling since.
And you say;
“Fact is, on a global scale the decade from 1998 has been around 0.8 deg C warmer on average than the first decade of the 20th century. In other words, the long-term trend is upwards”
I address your substantive point and will ignore your exaggerated value of “0.8 deg C warmer”.
I explained that the “long term trend” is recovery from the Little Ice Age (LIA). The Earth has been warming out of the LIA for 300 years. So, the first decade of the 19th century was colder than the first decade of the 20th century that was colder than this first decade of the 21st century. (Around 1700, Londoners used to have “Ice Fairs” on the frozen Thames each year. The last Ice Fair was held in 1814, and the Thames has not frozen solid since.) Having explained that the Earth has been warming from the cold LIA, I said, “Nobody knows if the decade-long halt to global warming is temporary, but the following points warrant consideration.” etc.
The halt to recovery from the LIA that happened in 1998 does not support claims of AGW; indeed, it provides doubt to those claims. But that recovery may resume in future. Please read my explanation of that, too.
You then make bold assertions, saying;
“Levels of CO2 in the atmosphere have increased by at least 30 percent over the past 200 years, almost all due to human activities. CO2 has the effect of retaining heat in the atmosphere, hence the warming.”
Several publications including an analysis I co-authored and a report of the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) state that available data does not – repeat, not – support a claim that the rise in atmospheric CO2 concentration is “almost all due to human activities”. I explain this as follows.
The data concerning atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations in past centuries are hotly disputed. Many direct measurements of atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration in the nineteenth century showed higher atmospheric CO2 levels than now. Stomata data indicate that similar atmospheric CO2 levels to now have repeatedly existed in recent previous centuries. But ice core data do not show such high values. This may be due to smoothing of concentration peaks in the ice during its formation or merely because – as Neftel reports – he and others who analyse the data reject all values higher than the assumed 280 ppmv pre-industrial level because “high” values are assumed to be contamination.
Since the late 1950s the Keeling series of atmospheric CO2 concentration measurements has been conducted on the side of the active Mauna Loa volcano. And other series have also been accumulated elsewhere since then. They indicate ~30% rise in atmospheric CO2 concentration since 1958.
I and co-workers used the Keeling series in our assessment of possible causes of the rise in atmospheric CO2 concentration increase. In my first posting here I cited a URL where you can hear a presentation of that work. We concluded;
“Hence, using the available data it cannot be known what if any effect altering the anthropogenic emission of CO2 will have on the future atmospheric CO2 concentration. This finding agrees with the statement in Chapter 2 from Working Group 3 in the IPCC’s Third Assessment Report (2001) that says; “no systematic analysis has published on the relationship between mitigation and baseline scenarios”.(9)”
Please note that the IPCC says “no systematic analysis has published on the relationship between mitigation and baseline scenarios”. In other words, the IPCC states that available data does not support your claim that the rise in atmospheric CO2 concentration is “almost all due to human activities”.
Your assertion that, “CO2 has the effect of retaining heat in the atmosphere, hence the warming” is so wrong that there is not room to provide a full refutation of it here. Suffice it to say there are several other explanations of recent warming. For example, clouds reflect solar heat and a mere 2% increase to cloud cover would more than compensate for the maximum possible predicted warming due to a doubling of carbon dioxide in the air. Good records of cloud cover are very short because cloud cover is measured by satellites that were not launched until the mid 1980s. But it appears that cloudiness decreased markedly between the mid 1980s and late 1990s. Over that period, the Earth’s reflectivity decreased to the extent that if the Sun were constant then the reduced cloudiness provided an extra surface warming of 5 to 10 Watts/sq metre. This is a lot of warming. It is between two and four times the entire warming estimated to have been caused by the build-up of human-caused greenhouse gases in the atmosphere since the industrial revolution. (The IPCC says that since the industrial revolution, the build-up of human-caused greenhouse gases in the atmosphere has had a warming effect of only 2.4 W/sq metre).
Your concluding assertions to me say;
“On a geological scale, this is very fast warming. A warming gas is unstable, hence the concern over the long-term effects. The safest and most effective way of mitigating the warming is to reduce emissions of CO2.”
There is no evidence that “On a geological scale, this is very fast warming”. Indeed, if the CO2 is responsible for the recent warming then it is certainly not “very fast”.
The warming of the twentieth century was during two periods of 1910 to 1940 and 1970 to 1998. The rate of warming was very similar in both periods: indeed, the warming rate was slightly higher in the earlier period. But more than 80% of the human emissions were after 1940. So, it cannot be said that any warming induced by the emissions is “very fast” because warming was less fast in the warming period after 80% of the emissions than in the previous warming period.
And CO2 is a very stable.
There is no reason to suppose that reducing the emissions of CO2 would mitigate the warming. As I quote and reference above, even the IPCC says “no systematic analysis has published on the relationship between mitigation and baseline scenarios”.
And such reduction to the emissions would not be “safe” or “safest”. It would kill millions of people (mostly children). Indeed, the Precautionary Principle says it should not be done.
Constraint of CO2 emissions would inhibit use of fossil fuels with resulting economic damage. The effects would be worse than the ‘oil crisis’ of the 1970s because the constraints would need to be more severe, they would be permanent, and energy use has increased since then. The economic disruption in the developed world would disrupt economic activity everywhere. The major effects would be in the developed world because it has the largest economies. But the worst effects would be on the world’s poorest peoples: people near to starvation are starved by disrupted economic activity. And this in a probably futile to attempt to affect the climate of the entire world.
So, the Precautionary Principle states that we should not accept the certain risks of certain economic disruption in attempt to modulate the world’s climate on the basis of assumptions that have no supporting evidence and merely because they have been described using computer games.
I hope these answers to your points are sufficient. And I again thank you for attempting dialogue and not abuse.
Richard
Gordon: “How does the decade since 1998 compare with the decade of 1931-1940?”
According to the UK’s Climate Research Unit, the decade since 1998 is between 0.4 deg C and 0.6 deg C higher than the decade 1931-1940.
“Is it not true that showing a trend of temperature on a chart is affected by the start date of the data?”
The temperature trend can be affected by the start date, which is why 1998 is such an obvious cherry pick. So run the data from, say, 1850, and you’ll get a more accurate indication of the long-term trend.
“As more CO2 is added to the atmosphere, it’s effect diminishes.”
Not so much as sceptics claim. The calculations of sensitivity ignore the lag between CO2 entering the atmosphere and the final equilibrium temperature. This lag is explained by the high heat capacity of water, enabling the oceans to act as a giant heat sink.
Starbucks, Obama, Amarican Idol, Global Warming…the “In Thing”….Sheep follow the Leader.
Eddie:
You assert:
“The calculations of sensitivity ignore the lag between CO2 entering the atmosphere and the final equilibrium temperature. This lag is explained by the high heat capacity of water, enabling the oceans to act as a giant heat sink.”
Sorry, but no. The oceans are cooling.
There are far, far too many untrue assertions concerning AGW such as yours above, and the bulk of the scientific community is starting to object to them.
Now,32 thousand scientists with scientific degrees including more than 9 thousand with doctorates have signed a petition objecting to calls for actions such as the Kyoto Protocol.
Science is not decided by votes, but the dissent of tens of thousands of scientists should help the general public to recognise that the science is not “settled” and false claims such as recent oceanic cooling should be treated with caution.
For more information on the petition see
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2008/05/17/32-000-deniers.aspx
Richard
Richard, now you are a conspiracy theorist?
“It would be cherry-picking to assess the periods from 1997 or 1999 because the start of the present cooling period was 1998.”
This is one pile of steaming stupid, Richard. Great circular reasoning. “It’s proper to pick 1998 to prove that world has cooled because 1998 is the year that the world started to cool.”
You, sir, are about as dishonest as they come.
“Your assertion that, “CO2 has the effect of retaining heat in the atmosphere, hence the warming” is so wrong that there is not room to provide a full refutation of it here.”
Utter BS. CO2 is a greenhouse gas and accounts for around 15% of the greenhouse effect. This has been known for DECADES and is undisputed in the literature. This is problem with people like you Richard, you make up your own facts. See Ramanathan and Coakley (1978) and, while you’re at it, it looks like you could read Spencer Weart’s book too.
Post a link or a citation of a peer reviewed source that says CO2 is not a GHG or admit you are a lying shill. I expect silence on this matter. I think we both know how full of it you are.
All:
I refuse to debate with the childish fool who writes under the pseudonym ‘Boris’. His boorish rants, insults and slurs warrant derision and not answers. And his cowardice in presenting these personal attacks while hiding behind a pseudonym is clear for all to see.
However, in his most recent rant he suggests that I claim carbon dioxide is not a greenhouse gas (GHG). It is not surprising that he makes such a silly suggestion, because he knows that all I have written in this forum is correct and that it is simple to check the truth of my statements. So, he hopes to deflect readers from checking these matters for themselves by suggesting I claim other than I do.
Let us be clear. Carbon dioxide is a GHG. Water vapour is the major GHG and accounts for more than half of the greenhouse effect. The other greenhouse gases are known as trace greenhouse gases. Carbon dioxide is the major trace greenhouse gas and is responsible for almost half of their radiative effect.
Does the fact that carbon dioxide is the major trace Greenhouse gas mean that increased carbon dioxide in the air will increase global temperature to a significant or a detectable degree? No, it does not, although that remote possibility does exist.
At issue is how the climate system would respond to an increase to carbon dioxide in the air. The climate system is more complex than the human brain. Whenever anybody claims to know the future state of the climate system then ask them to make an easier prediction such as what you will be thinking tomorrow or next week. If they cannot predict that, then there is no possibility that they can predict the state of the climate system in the next decade or the next century.
However, I suspect that everybody knows what I think of ‘Boris’ whomever or whatever he/she/it may be.
Richard
Wow! I’m impressed with exactly how many skeptical arguments you could cram into that single article. To bullet point…
- It’s now called “climate change”
- Equate weather with climate
- Warming stopped in 1998
- Dissent is squashed
- It’s about promoting socialism
- List of 400 skeptics
- No such thing as an “ideal” temperature
- Mars is warming
- Temperature drives CO2, not the other way around
- It’s the Sun
- Warming is beneficial
- It’s cheaper to adapt
- Temperature drop in 12 months has erased all warming
- No increase in hurricanes
- Record cold temperatures in last few months
Impressive indeed.
Pure ad hominem. Does this indicate your reluctance to debate the facts without resorting to name calling? Once you have started slinging mud you can no longer claim the high ground or play the victim.
Choose any year other than 1998 between 1995 and 2001 and a warming trend to the present is evident. Use 3 year or 5 year means from 1998 or earlier and a warming trend is evident. The only way to claim that warming stopped in 1998 is to ignore the steep rise in 1998 followed by the subsequent steep fall to pre 1998 levels then followed by an increasing trend until at least 2007. Graphs that show the trend from 1880 forward (both single year and 5-year means) are available at NASA GISS along with some explanation of the difference in current warming vs the 1998 El Nino.
This is only true if by “the bulk of” you mean a small minority.
You can also go directly to the petition website here. Click on names of as many names as you like, Google them, and see what you come up with. I did this for about 30 haphazardly selected names followed by PhDs and not one of them had a degree even tangentially related to climate science (the closest I found was a mathematician).
Boris….haven’t seen you posting on CA or TRF recently. Why don’t you go back there and illuminate things for everyone? Hhmmmn??
Cheers….theoldhogger
Jeb wrote: Graphs that show the trend from 1880 forward (both single year and 5-year means) are available at NASA GISS along with some explanation of the difference in current warming vs the 1998 El Nino.
Jeb, are you aware of a website known as surfacestations.org? They are surveying the weather stations that NASA GISS uses for it’s data. From what I read, there appears to be some problems with their methodology, such as making adjustments with an upward bias in the near term and adjusting downwards for temperature further in the past. Would you care to comment on how this type of activity may distort reality?
All:
I am very willing to debate the issues of AGW science, AGW-promotion and AGW-scepticism.
My willingness to debate the issues is demonstrated by my response to “Eddie” when he challenged my statements here.
But I am not willing to participate in a public debate of me with anonymous smear mongers whose lies and insults would be contemptible in a school playground.
Lies, defamations and insults of me are not “the issues”. So, I said I would refuse to debate with ‘Boris’ because his postings consist of defamations, infantile lies and insults. And for the same reason I will not debate with ‘Jeb’ (who may be the same person).
Now a posting under the name of Jeb (whomever or whatever he/she/it is) says to me:
“Does this indicate your reluctance to debate the facts without resorting to name calling? Once you have started slinging mud you can no longer claim the high ground or play the victim.”
I repeat that it does not indicate a reluctance by me to debate the facts (with or without name calling). I started no “mud slinging” and I have only responded to the mud thrown at me by the person or persons writing here under the pseudonyms of ‘Boris’ and ‘Jeb’. Indeed, as those who read the above postings can see, I have been “the victim” of their barrage of lies, insults and innuendoes, so I do not need to “play” at anything.
The abuse from him/her/it/them is clearly intended to obscure the issues and to avoid scrutiny of their assertions concerning AGW.
Driving the informed out of any debate of AGW-issues is a common tactic of AGW-promoters. And their use of this tactic tells all that needs to be known about their own view of the validity of their arguments.
Richard
Richard S Courtney wrote:
Now,32 thousand scientists with scientific degrees including more than 9 thousand with doctorates have signed a petition objecting to calls for actions such as the Kyoto Protocol.
Jeb wrote:
You can also go directly to the petition website here. Click on names of as many names as you like, Google them, and see what you come up with. I did this for about 30 haphazardly selected names followed by PhDs and not one of them had a degree even tangentially related to climate science (the closest I found was a mathematician).
I divided 30 by 9000 and came up with a decimal value of .0033. Is this statistically significant enough to make a judgment about this list?
“I did this for about 30 haphazardly selected names followed by PhDs and not one of them had a degree even tangentially related to climate science (the closest I found was a mathematician).”
A mathematician would be good – since he deals with PROOFS!
Most skeptics are REAL scientists (engineers, chemists, physicists, statisticians, etc.) who use established scientific methods to do research with unaltered data (fudge factors are used sparingly and with great reluctance). They use computer models as tools, not as proofs.
They expect all who call themselves scientists to do likewise. They call unknowns unknown. They don’t make up values for unknowns to get the desired answer, then claim the made up value represents the unknown value in reality. They know you can’t make absolute claims when you don’t know even one of the variables.
They refuse to give “byes” to climatologists just because it’s difficult to gather comparative data and make sense of it and because “it’s the best we can do”. A guess is still a guess. If that’s the best you can do – then fine. But don’t dress it up LIKE YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT’S GOING ON. That’s what skeptics (scientists and laymen) are saying in plain English.
I have as much respect for phrenologists as I do for climatologists. I’m sure they also spent years studying their craft and no one was better able to read lumps on heads than they were. But I’m sure that they also claimed that no one but a fellow phrenologist was qualified to critique their work.
To say that only climatologists should review climate work is indeed dangerous. We might still be looking for interstellar ether, phlogiston, and studying alchemy, if disciplines barred others from reviewing their work. BTW of the 1500 (2500?) consensus scientists from the IPCC reports, the majority were NOT climate related either. Look that up!
As you AGW people have said “too much is at stake”, and I’ll add “to let the scorcerer’s apprentice be calling the shots”.
“Why don’t you go back there and illuminate things for everyone?”
There’s too much noise at CA, noise like you see in this thread from people who can’t be bothered to read the literature, and Steve M’s lawyerly approach is tiresome.
I’ll admit I’m noisy too, but guys like Richard are so blatantly dishonest and ignorant, it’s hard not to get riled up. Hey, I get riled up at the idiot 911troofers and the anti-vax nuts and HIV denialists.
The upshot of it all is that no one in power is listening to guys like Richard anymore. Even the oil companies have given up the ghost (we’ll see if they hold to it). We can listen to guys like them–industry toadies with no scientific training and no publications–or we can listen to bodies like the NAS and the Royal Society. We listen to those groups on EVERY OTHER SCIENTIFIC ISSUE. And the next president will listen to them too, regardless of the noise and denial coming from the Richard S Courtney’s of the world.
Boris,
Do you understand how people become educated on a subject or even an expert? They spend years reading THOUSANDS of pieces of literature. I have spent almost 20 years reading up on global warming – both pro and con. My opinion has somewhat shifted a few times. Only in the last few (maybe 5) years have I become a AGW skeptic of the first order. Why? Because the evidence of AGW is not there.
I haven’t read jackshit from oil companies, but I’ve sure read a lot from the Sierra Club, Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth, and Al Gore (to name a few). Truth told, I’ve read persuasive and well-researched arguments from scientists on both sides.
One thing I noticed, that in about 2004 (an election year – coincidence?), the pro-AGW camp shifted away from predominantly presenting evidence to support their case to attack mode.
Now, the AGW crowd relies more on marginalizing their critics, defaming their critics, ad hominem attacks, brow-beating, demonizing, and playing the victim, than they do presenting scientific rebuttals to legitimate questions. This is not how a group would behave if they were dealing honestly. Yes, you ARE judged by HOW you answer skepticism.
Yes, I have read from the Royal Society, NAS, Nature, Scientific American. I am troubled and saddened that these once-fine institutions and publications have become so politicized and overcome by special interests, that they have lost what it means to scientifically objective and now have become advocacy entities. (Not just on global warming either)
To recap: You form an informed opinion after you have thoroughly researched a subject (I think 20 years is probably enough, how long have you researched it, Boris?). You weigh the pros and cons of the argument and decide whether the pros outweigh the cons. Needless to say, the pros do not outweigh the cons.
So Boris get off your “everyone is brainwashed (or bought off) by Big Oil” argument. Some of us have done a lot of thoughtful research. How about you? Were you brainwashed by Al Gore, Heidi Cullen, James Hansen or some professor in college? Who did your brainwashing?
When we post, should we all have to state our Party affliations, whether we work for the government, are we rabid Bush-haters, socialists, ever worked for Greenpeace? Everyone of these characteristics will likely bias our opinions on AGW. In a forum, such as this, someone’s connection to coal, oil, or the Sierra Club is irrelevant. All opinions are valid. You are tilting at windmills here.
Richard: “You ignore my explanation of why consideration of the period since 1998 is very proper.”
Best as I can make out, this is your explanation for the above: “It is simply a fact that 1998 was the year when the warming stopped”. The terms “warming” and “cooling” are relative terms and imply processes: warming or cooling in relation to what?
By way of analogy, we can experience a warm early spring period and a cool late spring period. In the absence of any knowledge of the seasons, all we can say is that one period is warmer or cooler than the other. However, since we have seasonal knowledge, we can say that one period is unseasonably warm or cool, and that the trend is upwards.
But when it comes to decadal periods, we have no such baseline, so must create one, typically the average of a 30-year historical period, such as 1951-1980 or 1961-1990. We can then relate periods such as 1998 to the present by reference to the baseline. Otherwise, all you can claim is that ‘1998 was warmer on average than 2008’, but that is not the same claim as ‘global warming stopped in 1998’.
“I explained that the “long term trend” is recovery from the Little Ice Age (LIA).”
This claim assumes some sort of ‘natural’ baseline around which the global temperature fluctuates. There is no evidence for this.
“…available data does not – repeat, not – support a claim that the rise in atmospheric CO2 concentration is “almost all due to human activities”.”
The generally accepted view that the recent rise in CO2 is mostly due to human activities is supported by comparing the proportion of the isotopes of carbon in the atmosphere between earlier and later periods. The proportion of human-produced carbon isotopes – ie produced by burning fossil fuels – has increased over the past 150-200 years and is still increasing.
And measurements of atmospheric CO2 over the past 50 years show a steady rise in CO2, which supports the ice core data.
As for mitigation, a United Nations Environment Programme booklet from 1991 has this to say: “Fortunately, opportunities abound for reducing net emissions. They all involve either reducing human-induced emissions or capturing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and sequestering it. They include investments in low-emissions technologies, institutional and regulatory changes that discourage emissions, and a wide range of technical practices and social changes”.
But we can agree on one thing: surveys and opinion polls say nothing either for or against the science of global warming.
Again you shift the debate away from the evidence presented to your perception of the character of those presenting it. This is becoming a tiresome pattern. I have said before and am saying again I am in do way related to Boris (check with the sys admin if you doubt this).
Again, I have yet to insult you, though you are trying my patience.
I have pointed out flaws in your argument, misleading use of citations, and misleading use of lists of scientists. These are challenges to your arguments, not personal criticisms which to this point I have not leveled against you despite your personal insults directed against me.
Please actually respond to the substance of the critiques rather than whining about perceived tone.
Certainly not, and the sample was haphazard rather than random as well. I invite you and everyone else to check as many names as you have patience for. I do find it odd that none of the names I encountered was in any related scientific field (a mathematician, a couple of engineers, some medical doctors, and several people with no web presence or presence in ISI databases. I looked at another 10 or 15 since with much the same results. An independent verification of the list and listing of signatories by field would be interesting, but is not likely forthcoming.
Sadly no. Most people on both sides of this debate have little or no knowledge of the subject and are not scientists nor do they have much contact with scientists, particularly not scientists in this specialized field. The debate on this subject and indeed on most issues that have become politically contentious involves precious rational weighing of evidence pro and con.
There seems to be an intensification of distrust and outright hostility directed against scientists and other intellectuals. Much of the same venom in the climate debate seems to be mirrored in the ID/evolution kerfuffle, largely by the same people on both sides and the same distrust and hostility directed at the scientists involved. I don’t intend to conflate the two issues (which have little overlap other than the people arguing each side in forums like this one), but the pattern is interesting to me.
Why would you say this? What evidence can you marshal in support of this bold and unfounded assertion? Do you think you have the same opinion of Science and the New England Journal of Medicine?
What are CA and TRF?
Eddie:
You say that my explanation of recovery from the Little Ice Age (LIA) was not sufficiently clear for you to understand it. This is strange because your subsequent discussion of seasons implies that you do understand what I was saying.
I explained that the climate varies in cycles (a fact known since the Bronze Age when it was pointed out by to Pharaoh by Joseph: the one with the Technicolour Dreamcoat). I explained that there are several cycles and I mentioned two of them.
I said these and other cycles must be overlaid on each other, and any AGW must be overlaid on them.
One of these cycles has a length of ~1,500 years and it has been in the warming portion of its cycle for about 300 years. Indeed, by way of illustration I pointed out;
“Around 1700, Londoners used to have “Ice Fairs” on the frozen Thames each year. The last Ice Fair was held in 1814, and the Thames has not frozen solid since.”
Clearly, this warming phase of the observed ~1,500 year cycle began long before possible GHG-induced AGW.
And I pointed out another cycle with length ~60 years. The 60 year cycle gave us cooling to 1910, cooling from 1940 to 1970, and – it seems – cooling from 1998.
All the above is empirical data: i.e. it is observed fact.
And the observed fact is that global warming stopped in 1940 but resumed in 1970. It is also an observed fact that it stopped in 1998 but we do not know if it will resume again.
We are nearing the end of the warm phase of the 1500-year-cycle, so the cooling phase of the 1500-year-cycle may have started when we reach the end of the present (cooling) phase of the 60-year-cycle. Therefore, it cannot be known if the warming from the LIA will resume (as it did in 1970) or if we are set to enter a cold phase like the LIA.
You talk of changes between decades. I fail to see why anybody would do that when considering the 1500-year-cycle. Such consideration would be a severe error. All one would compare is where one is along the phase of the cycle. Indeed, you point this out yourself when talking about the seasons (that are another climate cycle): comparing the first decade to the last decade of the twentieth century is like comparing February to May in a year.
One needs to observe the cycles and to compare like with like.
In the 1500-year-cycle, the present warm phase needs to be compared to the previous warm phase; i.e. the Medieval Warm Period when the Vikings farmed Greenland and an insect now constrained to the South of France inhabited York in the north of England.
And, in the 60-year-cycle, 1998 is like 1940 because they were years when the cycle peaked and, therefore, a cooling phase started.
I do not see how I can explain this more clearly.
In response to my correctly saying:
“…available data does not – repeat, not – support a claim that the rise in atmospheric CO2 concentration is “almost all due to human activities”.”
You reply,
“The generally accepted view that the recent rise in CO2 is mostly due to human activities is supported by comparing the proportion of the isotopes of carbon in the atmosphere between earlier and later periods. The proportion of human-produced carbon isotopes – ie produced by burning fossil fuels – has increased over the past 150-200 years and is still increasing.”
But I was talking about the “available data”. I was not discussing the “generally accepted view”.
A “generally accepted view” is not evidence that anything is correct (e.g., more people have a “view” that Santa Claus exists than there are people who accept the “view” that the rise in atmospheric CO2 concentration is “almost all due to human activities”.”). Such “views” are mere fashion, they are moderated by circumstances, and they can be very wrong (e.g., in 1930s Germany it was the “generally accepted view” that Hitler was a good guy, but it is not the “generally accepted view” in Germany today).
The isotope data are changing ratio in the direction expected from fossil fuel burning. So what? A change to the ratio must be in one direction or the other, and the ratio could be expected to alter when atmospheric CO2 concentration is changing. Importantly, the magnitude of the isotope ratio change does not fit with a claim that the isotope ratio change is caused by the human emissions of CO2.
Science is about numbers. When measurements provide numbers that do not fit a hypothesis then the hypothesis requires amendment or rejection.
You attempt to justify the “generally accepted view” by saying,
“And measurements of atmospheric CO2 over the past 50 years show a steady rise in CO2, which supports the ice core data.”
Again, so what? Nobody disputes that atmospheric CO2 has been rising in recent decades. At issue is the true cause of that rise. What some people choose to believe to be the cause does not alter the real cause (whatever that may be).
You quote a UN booklet that advocates reducing CO2 emissions.
OK, but I explained that such reductions would kill millions of people, mostly children. And I explained that it is not known what – if any – effect such reductions would have on atmospheric CO2 concentration. Indeed, I pointed out that the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) says this in Chapter 2 from Working Group 3 in the IPCC’s Third Assessment Report (2001) where it states, “no systematic analysis has published on the relationship between mitigation and baseline scenarios”.
In conclusion Eddie, I ask you to please keep up the debate because you, I and others may learn from rational argument of our different views.
Richard
As an engineer I can tell you that not even 1 in 10 of the people in my profession “believe” in global warming. The science simply isn’t there. One of the first things they teach you in thermodynamics is that you can’t solve for the temperature of an open system, especially one of the complexity of the earth. There is too much that is unknown and too many assumptions that have to be made. Anyone who tells you different is not a scientist but rather a fool or a person with an agenda.
Climatology is a “soft science” in that it has no real predictive accuracy but is rather a bunch of models in which a person makes certain assumptions to arrive at the result they wish to achieve. It is only loosely based on measured data and known interactions. In that sense it is more akin to economics or psychology than any discipline in the hard sciences. There is simply too much that is unknown for it to be otherwise.
Still, assume for a moment that the climate really is warming instead of just “changing” (as if such a thing has any meaning at all). You would still have to prove;
1: That the change is for the worse. This hasn’t even been addressed and really can’t be known with any certainty. History shows that humanity has benefitted from a warmer climate more often than not.
2: That there is something we can do about it. The answer to this question is clearly no. Show me a country that is meeting its Kyoto quotas and I will show you a country that is lying or dying.
3: That the efects of what we attempt to do to ameliorate the “problem” aren’t actually worse than the alleged “problem.” Even the tiny step we have taken towards biofuels shows that the cure is often worse than the disease. A sub-category of this is that we might actually exacerbate the problem we are attempting to solve instead of creating new ones, such is our paucity of knowledge about the subject.
4: Even if all of the above could be shown, then we would have to weigh the usage of our finite resources. For instance, it might be much more economically effective to simply design crops that are more heat resistant than to starve millions of people in the third world by creating an artificial demand for biofuels. We have already killed enough Africans by our banning of DDT. Just because the environmental movement doesn’t have a conscience doesn’t mean that the rest of us don’t.
5: There are other problems that are unquestionably real that are more deserving of our attention. For instance, having a mad mullah developing nuclear weapons who has stated on several occassions that he intends to wipe other countries off the map. States such as Saddam’s who have used WMDs and supported terrorism throughout the globe while daily violating the armistice and sanctions that were put in place to keep him in check. The willingness of our fellow citizens to use the ballot box to rob us of our hard earned resources and the willingness of our own press to take the side of our enemies… whether they be purveyors of junk science or lunatic death cult worshippers. Ecologically there are certainly greater threats such as being hit by a massive comet etc…
6: You have to trust politicians to solve the problem. Given that they currently would rather subsidize US farmers to grow food crops for fuel rather than importing ethanol from Brazil you would have to be a fool to think that they will act rationally instead of abusing the mandate they are given for their own purposes. This is the one part of this whole equation of which we CAN be certain.
For this and about a million other reasons, global warming is a non-starter except as a means of extending the control of government over the lives of free men and as a means of separating those same men from their rights and possessions. It is also useful to people such as reacharound as a means of feeling morally superior. Funny how for some people that always equates to the application of force against those who disagree with them.
“If we listened to people like you all western democracies would end up bankrupt.”
And there, folks is the answer to what this is all about. Behind the Gores and the Obamas, you will find the Soros and other multi-billionaires, and behind them… China.
Why would China want to bankrupt their best customers? They really don’t… they just want to keep us off balance so they can extend their dominance without interference, and that means electing Democrats, in case you hadn’t tumbled to that. The motivations of Soros et al are more ideological and crazier.
Ben Franklin hit the nail on the head with this statement::
Climatology is a “soft science” in that it has no real predictive accuracy but is rather a bunch of models in which a person makes certain assumptions to arrive at the result they wish to achieve. It is only loosely based on measured data and known interactions. In that sense it is more akin to economics or psychology than any discipline in the hard sciences. There is simply too much that is unknown for it to be otherwise.
The fact that there is too much ‘unknown’ is the key. It seems to me the GCM’S base their conclusions on increased sensitivity of CO2 in the atmosphere which for them translates into positive feedback which would lead to temperature increase. This is an entirely unproven assumption. To my knowledge there are no countering negative feedbacks accounted for in the GCM’s . This seems highly implausible in the earth’s weather system based on the fact that the climate has warmed and cooled many times in the past, human contribution to CO2 or not. If my understanding is incorrect, will welcome an opposing explanation.
Something else to consider. The IPCC set out to prove there is AGW and according to them, they proved it
“There seems to be an intensification of distrust and outright hostility directed against scientists and other intellectuals. Much of the same venom in the climate debate seems to be mirrored in the ID/evolution kerfuffle, largely by the same people on both sides and the same distrust and hostility directed at the scientists involved.”
Interesting. I noticed the same thing. However it’s not surprising when you think about it. There’s bound to be heated disagreement in topics that are complex, and involve issues that skirt the limits of our knowledge. Distrust and hostility would naturally arise when one side of the debate feels that it is being unfairly dismissed or silenced.
I personally think it indicates a healthy society when people can debate and question the experts on complicated and unresolved (as least to some) topics. Much better than a society where an elite class owns the truth.
I think this will be my last post, as there isn’t much more new to add.
Well, I think Ben Franklin summed up the practical points very well. Sorry, I like to speak in generalizations. I feel that this “cite me a source” business is a “gotcha”. If you do cite a source, then the next post rips the source apart. Also I don’t bookmark too much of the stuff I read, and then it takes too long to find it again. My posts are not intended to be research papers, but rather my informed opinion. What I say is substantiated throughout the internet, and can be googled if it bothers you than much to verify it. I’d rather plant the idea in your head and let you do your own research.
I’m a manufacturing engineer. I can tell you that no matter how good a new machine design looks on CAD (computer aided design). No matter how good the electrical and mechanical system looks in planning. No matter how valid the heat and refrigeration theory seems in design. No matter how many times we go over the numbers looking for calculation errors. If my company ran a new machine down the production line and shipped it out to our customers without any physical testing, I’d be fired in two weeks when the customer complaints came rolling in.
Any engineer will tell you, what you see on paper (computer) does not always reflect the real world. There are always unforeseen variables that creep into production and other factors may have higher impact than were anticipated. You should thank God that engineers have more humility about their work than climatologists next time you drive over a bridge or get in an elevator.
The comparison to econmics or psychology is a good one. I don’t think there is any millionaire out there willing to invest outrageous amounts of money based on an 50 year economic model, even if it were produced by the best economist in the world.
Right now, the AGW camp and their political cohorts are demanding that we risk $40 TRILLION on just that sort of prediction. I might as well lay the deed on my house on the Trifecta at the racetrack, because my bookie tells me he has a sure thing (he is an expert you know).
Sadly, I DON’T have a lot of respect for climatologists. I can appreciate that they are intelligent, hard-working, and sincerely think they are on to something. But ANY scientist who refuses to see the limitations of his science is just plain arrogant (or ignorant). As for phrenologists, in their day, they too were respected scientists. Like eugenicists, after the science is debunked, later scientists disown them.
Science is and always has been faddish and filled with dead ends. It is a myth that science has progressed as this seemless building of knowledge. Science DOES cover its ass, precisely because it doesn’t want to answer questions like, “If they were so wrong in the past, how can you be so sure now?”. We should be skeptical. We shouldn’t take science ALWAYS at face value. That’s why we use the scienctific method, predication and verification, and peer review and challenge – not consensus, politics, popularity, and cult of personality.
I wonder what we’ll think of present day climatologists in a generation or two?
Walker,
You have not talked about the science at all this thread, except to talk about aerosols, which you got mostly right.
Your other posts have been assorted conspiracy theories and outright falsehood–the 2 deg?decade climate model that you remember so well, but can’t pint us to, and that certainly doesn’t jibe with published models from the time period (see Hansen 1988–you should be quite familiar with it).
In short, I see no evidence that you have spent two decades educating yourself on climatology.
And Ben Franklin is an idiot who thinks the US banned DDT worldwide and killed a bunch of Africans. Agreeing with morons like that doesn’t win you any scientific points.
“The isotope data are changing ratio in the direction expected from fossil fuel burning. So what? A change to the ratio must be in one direction or the other, and the ratio could be expected to alter when atmospheric CO2 concentration is changing.”
The extra CO2 is coming from fossil fuels, and Jeb is not quite right in describing it as the “generally accepted view.” It is about as ironclad as anything in Earth science.
For you to be right, you need to answer:
Where is the CO2 from fossil fuels going?
And where is the exact amount we would expect from burning fossil fuels coming from?
How is this replacement happening?
Why are the isotope ratios exactly what we would expect from CO2?
Why are oxygen levels decreasing in the atmosphere?
Why does the atmospheric concentration track with the amount of FF burned?
I’m sure you could write 50,000 brilliant words of circular logic explaining your “theories.” I’ll tell you what, do what every other nutjob out there does, type them up single spaced on your Underwood and mail the whole thing to the New York Times.
Boris said:
No, 1934 was not hotter than 1998. Not even close.
I posted this info taken from NASA GISS:
GISS U.S. Temperatures (deg C) in New Order
Year Old New
1934 1.23 1.25
1998 1.24 1.23
1921 1.12 1.15
2006 1.23 1.13
1931 1.08 1.08
1999 0.94 0.93
1953 0.91 0.90
1990 0.88 0.87
1938 0.85 0.86
1939 0.84 0.85
Here’s the old leaderboard.
Year Old New
1998 1.24 1.23
1934 1.23 1.25
2006 1.23 1.13
1921 1.12 1.15
1931 1.08 1.08
1999 0.94 0.93
1953 0.91 0.90
2001 0.90 0.76
1990 0.88 0.87
1938 0.85 0.86
It stated now that 1934 was the hottest year and that 4 years during the 1930’s were in the top 10. Your last post stated that…No, 1934 was not hotter than 1998. Not even close. Who is correct here?
Boris, perhaps you missed the post, as you didn’t reply. It does, however, conflict with your prior statement. What is correct?
Eddie, you wrote:
“The generally accepted view that the recent rise in CO2 is mostly due to human activities is supported by comparing the proportion of the isotopes of carbon in the atmosphere between earlier and later periods. The proportion of human-produced carbon isotopes – ie produced by burning fossil fuels – has increased over the past 150-200 years and is still increasing.”
What kind of scientific term is “mostly”? Can tbat be expressed as a precise percentage? Can it be sourced? It is tbe very crux of tbe argument.
All:
An anonymous source (probably a group of people from WWF, Greenpeace or the like) asks me a set of questions that are clearly posted here to give the impression that I cannot answer them. The intended impression is possible because I have stated that I will not debate with he/she/it/them until he/she/it/they withdraw his/her/its/their libellous defamations of me in this forum.
This intention to cause an impression is clear because I have already answered the posed questions in this forum.
However, to prevent the intended impression, I now give brief answers to each of the questions but I will not be drawn into debate of my following answers with he/she/it/them. My following answers destroy his/her/its/ their blatant ploy.
Q.
Where is the CO2 from fossil fuels going?
A.
Into the carbon cycle.
In my first posting to this forum I cited a URL of an audio where this is fully explained (by me). To save those who wish to check this from needing to find that posting, I repeat the information here. The URL is
http://www.heartland.org/NewYork08/audio.cfm
At the above URL an audio recording of the pertinent presentation can be heard by scrolling down to Tuesday 4 March, Session 8.45 – 10.15 am, Track 2 then clicking on Audio below my name. The Audio of ‘Q&A’ at the end of that session is also pertinent.
Q.
And where is the exact amount we would expect from burning fossil fuels coming from?
A.
This question is ambiguous and I suspect it is added for rhetorical effect. However, if by “coming from” the questioner means ‘the origin of the carbon in fossil fuels’ then the answer is:
All the carbon in fossil fuels is from fossilized biota, and the biota obtained it from carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. The “exact amount” of this carbon is not known but NASA estimates it to be ~5,000 GtC. And IPCC and NASA say it is being returned to the atmosphere by the burning of fossil fuels at a rate of 6.5 GtC per year.
Again, this is fully explained in the URL that he/she/it/they has chosen to ignore.
Q.
How is this replacement happening?
A.
Again, the question is ambiguous.
If it means ‘replacement’ of atmospheric carbon dioxide that was sequestered in fossil fuels, then – as my previous answer says – the ‘replacement’ is by the burning of fossil fuels.
If it means ‘replacement’ of fossil fuels in the ground, then it is by formation of peat, coalification and petrification.
Q.
Why are the isotope ratios exactly what we would expect from CO2?
A.
They are the ratios of C14, C13 and C12 isotopes in atmospheric CO2. They can only be “what we would expect from CO2” when it is CO2 that is being analysed.
Perhaps the question is intended to imply “what we would expect from anthropogenic emissions of CO2”. If that is the intention, then the implication is wrong because the magnitude of the isotope ratio changes do not agree with their being predominantly caused by anthropogenic CO2 emissions.
Q.
Why are oxygen levels decreasing in the atmosphere?
A.
Nobody knows. (As the old hymn says; “Everything changes but God changes not”.) Ignorance is not evidence. And the balance of oxygen in the air depends on many things. For example, natural forest fires exist all the time and their magnitude changes with atmospheric oxygen concentration. Forest fires consume oxygen and the fires increase in extent and duration when there is more oxygen in the air.
Q.
Why does the atmospheric concentration track with the amount of FF burned?
A.
It does not “track”. The annual pulse of anthropogenic CO2 into the atmosphere should relate to the annual increase of CO2 in the atmosphere if one is causal of the other, but their variations greatly differ from year to year. Again, this is explained in the audio at the above URL.
However, both the emissions from fossil fuel burning and atmospheric CO2 concentration have both been increasing in recent decades. The number of bicycles in the world has also been increasing throughout those decades: does anybody think the bicycles are relevant, too?
But it is possible to model anything in the absence of knowledge of true causes. So, it is possible to model both that (a) the anthropogenic emission is responsible for the atmospheric rise and (b) that the atmospheric rise is completely natural. I with co-workers have published a set of six such models with 3 of the models assuming an anthropogenic cause and the other 3 each assuming a different purely natural cause. Please note that each of our models matches the available empirical data without use of any ‘fiddle-factor’ such as the ‘5-year smoothing’ the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) uses to get its model to agree with the empirical data. Again, this is explained in the Audio at the above URL.
Richard
Richard: “You say that my explanation of recovery from the Little Ice Age (LIA) was not sufficiently clear for you to understand it.”
I didn’t say that. I wasn’t sure which of your statements was intended to explain your 1998 claim.
“We are nearing the end of the warm phase of the 1500-year-cycle, so the cooling phase of the 1500-year-cycle may have started when we reach the end of the present (cooling) phase of the 60-year-cycle.”
So it’s cycles within cycles. That has a familiar ring. The major problem for this explanation is the weak evidence — much of it anecdotal — for the influence of cycles, at least in recent geologic times, whereas there is strong evidence for the current influence of CO2.
“A “generally accepted view” is not evidence that anything is correct…”
The generally accepted view is among climate scientists, as reflected in IPCC reports, and as I said, this view is supported by the evidence. But this raises an interesting point. Like most people who have an interest in global warming I am not a climate scientist. I know the basics, but in the absence of becoming proficient in the relevant discipline, as a layperson I must settle for taking the word of people who I believe have the best case.
Necessarily, this means that in cases outside of my expertise my most rational course of action will be to accept the generally accepted view, unless that view contains some obvious errors of logic or fact, and what I call ‘proxies’ for trust/distrust. I have found these standards help me to sort out the wheat from the chaff.
Consanescerion: What kind of scientific term is “mostly”? Can tbat be expressed as a precise percentage? Can it be sourced?”
This is a general interest blog. Most people here are not climate scientists, so the level of debate is necessarily general. As for sourcing, here is a link to a site that explains why the recent rise in CO2 can be mostly attributed to human activities.
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=160
Al Gore said it, I believe it, that settles it for me. /sarcasm off
Eddie:
Thankyou for your constructive continuation of our dialogue.
I write to try to answer your points to me and – hoping you do not mind – I also comment on a point you make to ‘Consanescerion’.
To begin, I am a climate change proclaimer and, therefore, I do not know why I am called a “climate change denier”. I proclaim that climate has always changed everywhere and it always will. The challenge to me and others who study climate is to discover how and why it changes.
On my explanation of the observable facts of climate history you say:
“So it’s cycles within cycles. That has a familiar ring. The major problem for this explanation is the weak evidence — much of it anecdotal — for the influence of cycles, at least in recent geologic times, whereas there is strong evidence for the current influence of CO2.”
However, there is no evidence (n.b. none, not any of any kind) for significant influence of recent increase of CO2 on climate. And the evidence for climate cycles (or oscillations if you prefer the term) is very, very strong.
There are many observed climate cycles. But, to date, few explanations exist for the true causes of any of them. The cycles include glacial to interglacial periods, El Nino Southern Oscillation (ENSO), Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO), North Atlantic Oscillation (NAO), etc.. Their existence is well documented and their natures are studied.
At this point I hope you will forgive my inserting two asides.
The recent controversial paper by Keenleyside et al. uses model studies to attribute the present halt to rising global temperature to be a function of these oscillations.
Your being, as you say, “outside of your expertise” when assessing climate data puts you in good company because the oft-repeated assertions in this forum that only climatologists are qualified to assess climate data is denied by Milankovich. His analysis of the collective effect of changes in the Earth’s movements upon its climate is known as the ‘Milankovitch cycles’, and is the most accepted explanation of the changes to phases of the glacial to interglacial cycle. But – like you – Milankovich was not a climatologist. Milankovich was a Serbian civil engineer who specialised in cement engineering.
To return to the subject.
The lack of understanding of the causes of the oscillations is a problem for climatological prediction. This is clearly demonstrated by ENSO.
One of many major faults of the GCMs’ predictions of future climate is that they cannot predict the El Nino and La Nino phases of ENSO in future years and decades. These phases have global climatic effects, but they are governed by upwelling of cold ocean waters and nobody knows what governs that upwelling. (When Pacific Ocean temperatures are observed to change then GCMs are used to predict if that change is initiation of a new ENSO phase, but they get those predictions right about as often as tossing a coin would.)
Most of the popular explanations for the climate cycles assume that they are governed by variations of the Sun. This seems to make some sense. Almost all of the climate system’s energy is derived from the Sun, and the system is very stable. Over the last 2.5 billion years the Sun has increased its output ~30% but within each glacial and interglacial period the Earth’s temperature has remained similar throughout that time. This stability implies that the system has some negative feedbacks that operate to maintain stable global temperature. If so, then the observed oscillations are (to use control system terminology) observation of the climate system hunting its control temperature in response to solar variation.
Furthermore, isotope studies of past climates and solar activity correlate well over geological ages. Indeed, variations in global temperature correlate to solar variations much better than to variations in atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration.
But correlation proves nothing. For example, each year children return to school after their summer holidays and shortly after their return leaves start falling off trees, but this does not prove that the end of school holidays causes autumn.
What can be said with certainty is that variations in total solar irradiance are not sufficient to explain observed changes to global temperature. However, this is where the Svensmark Hypothesis becomes important.
There is not sufficient space here to fully explain the Svensmark Hypothesis but you should be able to find it on the web with ease. In essence, the hypothesis says the flux of cosmic rays into the atmosphere affects cloud cover over the Earth, and clouds reflect solar heat so they cool the Earth’s surface (as every sunbather has noticed). As I previously said to you:
“clouds reflect solar heat and a mere 2% increase to cloud cover would more than compensate for the maximum possible predicted warming due to a doubling of carbon dioxide in the air. Good records of cloud cover are very short because cloud cover is measured by satellites that were not launched until the mid 1980s. But it appears that cloudiness decreased markedly between the mid 1980s and late 1990s. Over that period, the Earth’s reflectivity decreased to the extent that if the Sun were constant then the reduced cloudiness provided an extra surface warming of 5 to 10 Watts/sq metre. This is a lot of warming. It is between two and four times the entire warming estimated to have been caused by the build-up of human-caused greenhouse gases in the atmosphere since the industrial revolution. (The IPCC says that since the industrial revolution, the build-up of human-caused greenhouse gases in the atmosphere has had a warming effect of only 2.4 W/sq metre).”
An experiment to check the Svensmark Hypothesis is to be conducted at CERNE and its results are eagerly awaited.
Until then, I caution against any certainty concerning climate mechanisms. None of the data is really reliable (not even the surface temperature data sets). AGW-advocates proclaim their cause with religious certainty, and some supporters of solar effects seem to have similar certainty.
As for me, I only know what the available data says, and the available data poses more questions than answers. As I said in my first posting here;
“One apparent cycle length is ~1500 years and since the time of Christ it has given us
the Roman Warm Period, then
the Dark Age Cool Period, then
the Medieval Climate Optimum, then
the Little Ice Age, and
the Present Warm Period.
Another apparent cycle length is ~60 years so globally there was
cooling to ~1910, then
warming to ~1940, then
cooling to ~1970, then
warming to 1998, followed by
no significant warming or cooling.
Is anthropogenic warming preventing the 30 years of global cooling that the 60-year cycle could be expected to provide from ~2000?
Or
Has the 1500 year cycle reached its peak so another long cooling trend is about to start?
Or
Is the apparent existence of the cycles an effect of randomness or of something else?
Or ….
Possible answers to these and similar questions deserve serious investigation.”
This brings us to your statement saying:
“The generally accepted view is among climate scientists, as reflected in IPCC reports, and as I said, this view is supported by the evidence. But this raises an interesting point. Like most people who have an interest in global warming I am not a climate scientist. I know the basics, but in the absence of becoming proficient in the relevant discipline, as a layperson I must settle for taking the word of people who I believe have the best case. ”
Well, no. As a Reviewer for the IPCC my job is to read every word of every draft of the IPCC reports and to comment on them. And I can tell you the following.
The Summaries for Policymakers (SPMs) of the IPCC reports agree with the published versions of the technical reports they “summarise”, but they have significant differences from those technical reports prior to their published form.
The SPMs are written after reviewers comments on the technical reports. And the SPMs are approved by all the participating governments (the IPCC is an interGOVERNMENTal panel) but before the final draft of the technical reports. Importantly, the technical reports are amended to agree with the SPMs prior to publication.
Simply, the IPCC reports are government (i.e. political) documents that publish selected scientific information to support a case.
Please try to be skeptical when considering all these matters. Just as few climate data are trustworthy, few of the most well-funded data sources can be trusted, either. I explain above about the IPCC, so also look at the alternative interpretation of the same data used by the IPCC at
http://www.sepp.org/publications/NIPCC-Feb%2020.pdf
I contributed to that but be skeptical of it as well. Simply, compare the IPCC and the NIPCC publications and be skeptical at all times when considering information concerning climate change.
Importantly, you cite the RealClimate blog as a source of information. That blog needs especial skepticism. It was established by the ‘hockey team’ when their infamous Hockey Stick temperature graph (that even the IPCC has dropped) was discredited. They still operate their blog as a method to present a front that might make them seem credible.
Richard
Gordon,
You are confusing US temps with global temps. 1934 was much cooler than 1998 globally.
Richard pointed out:
Importantly, you cite the RealClimate blog as a source of information.
I just read an interesting link which describes who is behind the scenes at realclimate.org.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080322221036AAFFd8a
This suggests a political slant which everyone concerned with AGW should be aware of.
Once again you engage in the very actions you decry. Quit the ad hominem and answer the substantive points unless you cannot. It has been well pointed out in several ways why using 1998 as a start date constitutes cherry-picking and you have thus far failed to address this in any meaningful way. To say that is the date cooling began is not a substantive answer. You have acknowledged that after the spike in 1998 temps dropped to approximately pre-1998 levels and rose over time to the point of the 1998 spike. Why would you not consider 1998 an El Nino induced anomaly rather than a start point. No good explanation has been offered yet.
If my supposed libel of you is why you fail to answer my questions please let me know which of my statements (mine, not Boris’ or anyone else’s) statements you feel are libelous and I will retract them if they are indeed untrue.
All:
Jeb, Boris or whomever or whatever he/she/it/they may be says to me;
“answer the substantive points unless you cannot.”
As all can see for themselves (above), I have answered them, I explained why I was answering them, and I explained why I would not discuss with him/her/it/they.
Richard
You have not answered them in any substantive way. You have merely said that there are multiple climate cycles, which no one disputes. What you have not done is explained why you think picking a strong El Nino year for your start date is not cherry-picking. Pick any year from 1990-2003 and a warming trend is evident. Use 3 year or 5 year means and a warming trend is evident. Choose 1998 and you have a rapid drop in temp followed by a warming trend. To say that 1998 ends the warming trend because that’s when it ended and there are multiple cycles in effect does not answer in any substantive way the question put to you. Quit dodging and answer. Why is it less appropriate to choose 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, or 2002 as a starting year when looking at the current warming trend?
Saying there are multiple cycles equally applies to any of these years and I and others have explained why 1998 is a poor year to use. Explain why it is appropriate and the other years are not. Explain why it is not cherry-picking to choose this strong El Nino year as a starting point. Explain why choosing any other year from the 1980s to the present is cherry-picking*?
And once again please tell me which statement(s) I have made that you feel are libelous or defamatory.
Ever so politely yours,
Jeb
* you stated it was above
Hello Boris,
Looked up Spencer Weart’s the Discovery of Global Warming at the American Institute of Physics site. Perhaps I didn’t look in the correct section but could see nothing definitive about “1934 was not hotter than 1998, not even close or 1934 was much cooler than 1998 globally”. Would you please direct me to the source of this information and also define “not even close and much cooler”.
All:
I am not willing to debate with the anonymous source writing under the pseudonym of ‘Jeb’ who repeatedly pretends that he/she/it/they have not made defamatory statements against me in this forum. His/her/their/its pretence is silly.
For example, I cite the following posted here under the pseudonym of ‘Jeb’.
An example of lies about me posted by ‘Jeb’:
“As a side not that does not directly relate to the validity of Richard’s arguments, he is a coal industry lobbyist and so has a vested interest in dismissing AGW.”
But I am not a “coal industry lobbyist”, and as a Consultant on matters pertaining to environmental effects of the use of energy I have a “vested interest” (i.e. financial income) in keeping the AGW scare running. These lies are libellous in that they defame my professional integrity.
An example of direct professional defamation of me posted by ‘Jeb’:
In response to my writing:
“If you want to try to understand this then read my publications (yes, they are peer reviewed and I provided a reference to one)”
‘Jeb’ wrote:
“Energy&Environment is not carried in the ISI and is widely considered substandard and agenda driven.”
I have published in several journals (e.g. Nature, Materials, Spectroscopy, Spectrochemica Acta, etc.) but the paper I cited was published in Energy & Environment (E&E). Prior to being invited to join the Editorial Board of E&E, I published other papers in E&E and was Guest Editor of a Special Addition of E&E. The paper I cited here was published after I joined the Editorial Board of E&E and, therefore, it was subjected to exceptionally severe peer review to ensure that its acceptance for publication in the journal could not be considered to be biased.
Hence, the above quotation from ‘Jeb’ is libel because it defames my professional competence in that it suggests my work would only be published in a “substandard” journal, and it defames the professional integrity and competence of all the Editorial Board of E&E including myself.
I could cite other examples, but the above suffice. However, the coward hides behind a pseudonym to prevent defending against his defamations, and he repeatedly asserts, “I didn’t do it.”
Richard
Just a brief observation:
AGW is NOT a theory, but a hypothesis. In order to be a theory of anything requires proof. The evidence used for AGW has not yet provided that proof (albeit in the future it may).
Admittedly AGW is a reletively new hypothesis (1896 I believe) but even newer ideas have come to paper in the past 10 or 20 years that while still also only at the hypothesis stage are worth looking at. The late Dr. Rhodes-Fairbridge, a climatologist that taught some of the younger ones in New York, proposed a new solar cycle hypothesis before he passed away two years ago. Dr. Richard Mackey has picked up the torch on this new hypothesis and since his paper came out last year seems to be on track. A quick web search of just his name will allow you to download the PDF and read it for yourself.
Rodger, I suggest that if you have not read it yet that you do.
Another MAJOR factor is the climate drivers from vulcanism and the ocean. The MOA or AMO (too new for standard name?), PDO and ENSO cycles seem to be major drivers in the last 30 years. In 1991 when the IPCC first published the CO2 hypothesis they were VERY poorly known phenomena.
Apologies, advocate would be a more accurate and appropriate term or perhaps former advocate. I specified the organizations you worked for and you acknowledged the truth of those statements. Since you have acknowledged the veracity of my statements they cannot be considered libelous or defamatory.
Energy&Environment is not carried by ISI. Show that it is and I will withdraw that statement.
Sonja Boehmer-Christiansen (editor of E&E) did admit to her and the magazine’s agenda when she said, “I’m following my political agenda — a bit, anyway. But isn’t that the right of the editor?”? Show that to be a false quote and I will withdraw it.
Because of this and the articles printed in this magazine many do consider it agenda driven. Show this to be false and I will withdraw it.
Barring you showing any of my statements to be false calling me libelous or defamatory is the keyboard equivalent of so much hot air.
The best way to defend yourself against a defamation would be to point to the truth. Show any of my statements to be false and I will withdraw them. Call me a coward if you like, but it is you hides behind his indignation and refuses to answer direct questions. I can only assume that you continue to hide behind the fig leaf of indignation because you have no good answer to the questions I put to you.
Jeb
PS Undoubtedly you have noticed that the vast majority of people who comment on this and similar sites do so under a pseudonym (often a consistent one). Did you intend for your characterization of using a pseudonym in this forum as cowardly to apply to everyone here or only those who disagree with you?
Gordon,
The Weart source is a general education on AGW, since you have so many questions. It’s a good read if you are interested in science.
The 1934 vs. 1998 thing is well known. Just look up NASA’s temperature data at the GISS website. Or look up Hadley Center’s temp data.
“Importantly, the technical reports are amended to agree with the SPMs prior to publication.”
Another of Richard’s lies.
And Richard, I meant that CO2 tracks with historic fossil fuel burning. You hide behind the interannual variability of the climate system and never look at the large trends, the ones that actually matter in the study of climate.
But then again, you are a lying shill, so that’s par for the course.
“I have published in several journals (e.g. Nature”
And another lie. You wrote a letter to Nature, do you think that means they have “published” your science? What a pathetic attempt at puffing up one’s C.V. Lucky you’re not associated with an academic institution, they’d probably have your job for exaggerations of this kind.
per political reacharound: “I don’t understand you people. Despite what this guy says, he is not a scientist and the facts are there which support global warming.”
Free clue: despite what Al Gore says, he is not a scientist. Despite what YOU say, the article lays out only PART the spate of evidence and data that contradicts the computer models that AGW is based on, that the Goracle relied upon.
Second free clue: if the “debate is “over”, then why so much debate among REAL climatologists, an elite group that neither Gore or YOU are members of?
Your continual use of the terms “consensus” and “majority” show that you are completely clueless about science. Science NEVER achieves finality.
Newton and Galileo trumped Aristotle. Mach and Einstein trumped Newton. Bohr et al trumped Einstein at the “low end”.
And so it goes.
Or maybe you have other examples in science where “the debate is over”?
A breathless world awaits your wisdom!
Gordon Andelin
I followed your link to the source of RealClimate.
Thank You for the link, I have deleted their bookmark.
Boris,
It seems to me that you are shining me on. You said that “1934 was not hotter than 1998, not even close”. I posted a chart from GISS that clearly shows 1934 hotter than 1998. You then stated that “You are confusing US temps with global temps. 1934 was much cooler than 1998 globally”. Now you are saying that I should “look up NASA’s temperature data at the GISS website or Had- crut”. I already did that and posted the temps in a previous post. There is a conflict between your replies and the data posted. Just a simple answer to my question is all that I desire.
If you don’t mind me answering for Boris, this link might help. Look towards the bottom of the page and there are two graphs one showing global and the other the contiguous 48 temp data from 1880 to 2007. The graphs show both the old (flawed) and new (corrected) data as well as yearly and 5 year means. The scales on the graphs are different so keep that in mind as you view them.
A major objection to an otherwise excellent article:
“In February of this year a raft of data from the leading monitoring centers showed that average global temperatures [for 2006] had fallen by around 0.65º C, effectively canceling out the recent 30-year warming trend and leaving the Earth’s temperature close to what the alarmists would consider “normal.”
BLOODY NONSENSE!
The scientist who reported the 2006 downturn disavowed the “canceled out” carp, which was likely inserted by an innumerate “science writer”.
A 30-year warming TREND, recorded as a change in an HISTORICAL AVERAGE, is not “canceled out” by a SINGLE year’s data, certainly not by one with a deviation of this magnitude!
One year’s data may alter the trend line downwards. But unless that one number is extraordinarily small it doesn’t “wipe out” the trend. And even if it were to, statisticians would look to data in ensuing years for evidence that the new low was NOT an anomaly.
If the price of an average $300K house (is there such a thing?) in San Francisco has been rising 10% a year for ten years, does even a 50% fall THIS YEAR “cancel out” all that appreciation??
NO.
Do the math.
Then ask yourself: what if 2007′s temperature proves to be as much an upward deviation from the historical trend as 2006′s was below it:
Would that indicate that the historical 0.7 upward trend “canceled out” by the 2006 data be reinstated?
You down wiffat?
We have MUCH stronger arguments to use against the Global Warming zealots. Let’s use them, not mindlessly repeat innumerate bullshyt!!
Has anyone noticed that “politicalreacharound” stopped posting AS SOON AS other posters started making spirited technical arguments, pro and con, based on their understanding of the SCIENCE??
It’s always this way!
Gorons always argue “the controversy”, never “on the merits”. They won’t argue “on the merits” because they claim that the “debate is over”!!
What clueless dweebs.
All:
Richard Lindzen (Prof. of environmental science at MIT) has commented on the year in which recent global warming stopped. He writes:
“We are probably making a mistake in saying that there has been no warming since 1998. The standard enviro response is that 1998 was an El Nino year. While this is not an entirely meaningful response, one doesn’t have to deal with it at all, since there has been no statistically significant warming since 1995. Of course, communicating the meaning of statistical significance could be difficult.”
While Lindzen is correct that statistically global warming stopped in 1995, I still maintain that 1998 is the correct year to use when assessing the end of the most recent warming phase. The warmest year was 1998 (i.e. after 1995) and the most recent warming was a warming phase of 60-year-cycle that could be expected to end around year 2000.
Of course, for the reasons I have stated in this forum, we do not know if warming will resume in some future year or cooling will follow the halt to global warming that has existed for (at least) a decade.
But some will keep trying to pretend that global warming has not stopped whatever happens. Such denial of reality is normal for religious bigots.
Examples of this denial of reality are provided by the AGW-attack-dogs who also make cowardly untrue personal defamations while hiding behind pseudonyms in this forum.
Richard
A couple of observations:
1) Is there ANY climate/weather data that would adequately refute the AGW hypothesis? And I’m being serious here. If it’s observably warmer, it’s all due to AGW (see, we told you so). If temps fall globally (like they have over the past two years by dramatic amounts), it’s an ocean driven thing that is only stunting the AGW (it would REALLY be hot). Or if it’s cooler, it’s just changing weather. If there is a cluster of hurricanes, it’s AGW. If there are no hurricanes it’s because AGW has affected ocean currents. It really does seem that there is NO climate info that will make the AGW believers reconsider their beliefs.
2) The climate has changed dramatically in the past, with NO input from humans. Why do we then attribute all current climate change to human input? Was it as hot as it is now about 1000 years ago? How to explain that?
3) Would we be better off 1-2 degree warmer or 1-2 degrees cooler in the next 100 years? I am not sure. I would think that the earth is an easier place to live in a bit warmer than a bit cooler (longer growing seasons for one and little ice age).
4) How in the world can we think that we can predict what the climate is going to be in 100 years? Seriously. There is NO ‘model’ that is that good or that smart or that can take account of all variables. The people that talk about certainty can’t be serious. They were ‘certain’ in the 70′s that we were headed for an ice age based on data of cooling between 1940 and 1970′s. Was on all the Time/Newsweek covers. Yet undeterred, the ‘certain’ scientists continue to make predictions that are likely to be inaccurate. It seems that ALL alarmists are wrong almost all the time, but it doesn’t stop them from making the next prediction, and remarkably people still listen.
5) I am a skeptic that humans are changing the climate by their activity. But that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try to increase our energy efficiency, find new sources of energy, improve the environment and so forth. I really am for ALL of those things.
6) The critics of the skeptics often assert that the skeptics are funded by big oil or whatever, thus negating their arguments. Well, I’d have to say that if anything, the pro-AGW funding is far more influential. Big money to be had in AGW research. Oh, and has anyone wondered why Al Gore has invested heavily in biofuel companies? Of course, the Nobel Laureate wouldn’t let that affect his judgement would he….
5)
Richard,
Your response that Lindzen said it stopped in 1995 is an appeal to authority, not an answer. Hansen and other NASA scientists disagree. You will not accept an appeal to authority as an answer so you cannot expect for your appeal to authority to be accepted as an answer.
He states that there has been no statistically significant warming since 1995.
What statistical test(s) does he use? using what data set(s)? does he calculate this by only using only 1995 forward data if not what is his start year? and is the lack of significance do to one large outlier, namely 1998? A link to his answers to these questions or your own answers will suffice.
Again with the personal invective are you incapable of responding to my queries without keyboard Tourettes? Leave aside the insults and deal with the issues.
All:
There is a strange reversal of the “appeal to authority” fallacy in this debate. And that reversal is (at least) as wrong as “appeal to authority”. It probably results from a misunderstanding of the “appeal to authority” fallacy. I explain this as follows.
The anonymous ‘Jeb’ does his usual misrepresentation when he writes of me.
“Your response that Lindzen said it stopped in 1995 is an appeal to authority, not an answer.”
No! On the contrary. I did not cite Lindzen as an “authority” but I informed of Lindzen’s claim and I disagreed with it.
I disputed Lindzen’s claim saying;
“While Lindzen is correct that statistically global warming stopped in 1995, I still maintain that 1998 is the correct year to use when assessing the end of the most recent warming phase.” etc..
Then I summarised my previous explanation of my own view as to why 1998 is the correct date.
So, I was NOT citing Lindzen as an “authority” whose opinion could not or should not be disputed. I was citing Lindzen as a knowledgeable person whose opinion was worthy of discussion, and I disputed that opinion.
Jeb/Boris repeatedly say that I am a “coal industry lobbyist” because I was the Senior Materials Scientist of British Coal (a.k.a. the National Coal Board: NCB) until 1995. To make matters worse in their eyes, I could also mention that I was a member of the Executive of the Association of European Energy Industry Executives from 1995 until 2000.
But I am an independent consultant on matters pertaining to environmental effects of energy use. My present job requires knowledge, experience and expertise of the operation of energy industries. And such knowledge, experience and expertise would not be obtainable without ‘inside’ knowledge and experience of those industries obtained over years of direct involvement. This learning enables me to be independent because I can see the problems of each energy industry and the problems caused by each energy industry.
My knowledge does not mean my understandings of environmental effects of energy use are more “right”, “better” or “worthy” than the understandings of anybody else. But it does mean that I know what I am talking about.
However, the Jeb/Boris’s of this world assert that my knowledge, experience and expertise make my statements on these matters less trustworthy than those of people who are ignorant of these matters.
So, while the Jeb/Boris’s are right to dismiss “appeal to authority”, they are wrong to dismiss opinions of the informed and thus to “appeal to the ignorant”.
Richard
Richard: “However, there is no evidence (n.b. none, not any of any kind) for significant influence of recent increase of CO2 on climate.”
The evidence is the increasing concentrations of heat-retaining CO2 correlating with increasing temperatures. What other evidence do you have in mind?
“One of many major faults of the GCMs’ predictions of future climate is that they cannot predict the El Nino and La Nino phases of ENSO in future years and decades.”
That’s because ENSO-type events are not directly relevant to global warming, since the ENSO only redistributes the existing energy within the climate system. And since the ENSO is a short-term event, there is no need to make predictions for any specific event to make general forecasts or scenarios for the future.
In the same way, although we cannot precisely predict the temperature in any specific week in spring, we can be reasonably confident that overall temperatures will increase over time.
“Please try to be skeptical when considering all these matters. Just as few climate data are trustworthy, few of the most well-funded data sources can be trusted, either.”
I believe that I have approached this subject with an open mind. But the reality remains that my understanding is at the level that I flatter myself is that of the ‘intelligent layperson’. That means that I cannot realistically appraise scientific reports and must rely on the appraisals of others.
Ultimately, it comes down to whom I am prepared to believe, although as I said earlier I can realistically make informed judgments about matters of fact and logic, using my own ‘proxies’. For example, the preface to the Heartland Institute report suggests that there is a worldwide conspiracy of activist scientists and governments to foist AGW theory on an unsuspecting public for the purposes of amassing wealth and power. Not only is this highly unlikely, it also poisons the well and inevitably colours the evidence that follows.
Another example is your claim that the IPCC has “dropped” Mann’s hockey stick. This is not the case, as evidenced by the latest report. Like the 1998 claim, the term “dropped” may not be exactly false, since the hockey stick has a less prominent place in the report than previously, but it is certainly misleading.
Similarly, the sceptic claim that ‘anthropogenic global warming stopped in 1998’ is also subtly misleading, not just due to the cherry-pick, but also because many claimants reject AGW. In that case, any claim that AGW stopped in 1998 is for these people not a scientific claim, but in fact a political one, even if ironic.
These sorts of subtle misdirections can be more destructive to reasoned debate than outright falsehoods.
Eddie:
Your recent post makes some good points some – but not all – of which I agree.
In response to my saying,
“However, there is no evidence (n.b. none, not any of any kind) for significant influence of recent increase of CO2 on climate.”
you say,
“The evidence is the increasing concentrations of heat-retaining CO2 correlating with increasing temperatures. What other evidence do you have in mind?”
But, as I explained and illustrated, correlation can never prove causation (although lack of correlation can disprove it).
Importantly, the “increasing concentrations of heat-retaining CO2” correlates poorly “with increasing temperatures” and, as I said, solar variations correlate better to the increasing temperatures. That does not prove that either or neither or both of these suggested causes is the true cause of increasing temperatures.
In science, those who suggest a hypothesis have a duty to provide some supporting evidence for their case: others only have a duty to demand that they prove it.
Evidence for the AGW hypothesis would be provided by some climate change that the AGW hypothesis alone explains. But there is no observed climate change that requires AGW to explain it.
Humans have been altering local climates since before pre-history. Except for those anthropogenic local changes, all climate changes prior to the industrial revolution were ‘natural’ (i.e. they were not anthropogenic). And, except for local (and understood) anthropogenic climate changes, all observed recent climate changes are similar to climate changes in the centuries prior to the industrial revolution. So, the null hypothesis is that except for local changes only ‘natural’ climate changes have happened recently and are happening at present.
In other words, AGW is not a scientific hypothesis because it attempts to explain nothing. AGW is a political hypothesis that attempts to justify the behaviours of people.
I agree with you when you say;
“although we cannot precisely predict the temperature in any specific week in spring, we can be reasonably confident that overall temperatures will increase over time.”
I agree because you make a probabilistic prediction based on a known climate cycle (i.e. the seasons). But the AGW hypothesis asserts that anthropogenic emissions of GHGs will distort the climate cycles. As I explain above, the assertion is without foundation. And as I explained to you previously, actions taken in response to the AGW hypothesis threaten the lives of millions of people.
In other words, the AGW hypothesis is like somebody shouting “Fire!” in a crowded room because they think a fire could exist although there is no sign of a fire.
Then you assert;
“… ENSO-type events are not directly relevant to global warming, since the ENSO only redistributes the existing energy within the climate system. And since the ENSO is a short-term event, there is no need to make predictions for any specific event to make general forecasts or scenarios for the future.”
Sorry, but that is an error. AGW is a hypothesis that humans are affecting global climate. If GCMs cannot model the climate effects that do affect global climate then there is no reason to accept the GCMs’ ‘projections’of AGW’s effects.
And ENSO events do have global effects ranging from alteration to the Indian monsoon to lowering precipitation in Australia. Indeed, I cited it as an explanation of a climate cycle that has global effects. And I said that the GCM’s failure to model these observed global climate effects must give pause to acceptance of GCM predictions of changes to climate from a not-observed climate effect such as AGW.
I am not alone in making this point. It is based on the empirical facts so several others have stated the same opinion. For example, Roger Pielke Snr has very recently made the same point at
http://climatesci.org/2008/05/19/the-spatial-pattern-and-mechanisms-of-heat-content-change-in-the-north-atlantic-by-lozier-et-al/
Pielke comments on a recent analysis of NAO
(ref. M. Susan Lozier, Susan Leadbetter, Richard G. Williams, Vassil Roussenov, Mark S. C. Reed, and Nathan J. Moore entitled “The Spatial Pattern and Mechanisms of Heat-Content Change in the North Atlantic” originally published in Science Express on 3 January 2008, Science 8 February 2008, Vol. 319., no. 5864, pp. 800 – 803, DOI: 10.1126/science.1146436).
saying,
“This paper illustrates yet another shortcoming of the global climate models that are used to predict the climate system in the coming decades. They cannot accurately simulate the important climate feature of the North Atlantic Oscillation (the NAO). As the authors, themselves write “it is premature to conclusively attribute these regional patterns of heat gain to greenhouse warming“. This shortcoming of the multi-decadal global models applies to other low frequency climate variations, such as ENSO and the North Pacific Decadal Oscillation, which are major factors in the climate that we experience.“
Simply, if the models cannot model the climate effects we experience – and they cannot – then it is not reasonable to suppose that they can predict changes to the climate effects we experience. And that is what I was trying to say.
You say;
“the preface to the Heartland Institute report suggests that there is a worldwide conspiracy of activist scientists and governments to foist AGW theory on an unsuspecting public for the purposes of amassing wealth and power. Not only is this highly unlikely, it also poisons the well and inevitably colours the evidence that follows.”
I agree. Indeed, that Institute is very right wing so I – being an old-fashioned British Socialist – tend to distrust them. However, I see no reason why I should not accept an invitation to speak at their conference, and I did. I only attended science sessions at that conference but I can assure you that the presentations I heard were fair and honest.
A disconnect needs to be made between the scientists who spoke and the organizers of the conference. I think few of the scientists are connected with the Heartland Instute; e.g. I am not.
This raises the broader point that most scientists on both ‘sides’ of the AGW debate are ‘doing their best’ in terms of their work. But we are all human so personal motives do affect our actions and our opinions. As I said, I have my snout in the pro-AGW trough because that is where almost all the research funds are. I wish there were significant funds for alternative climate research. For example, for years I have been trying to get funds to support an experiment to directly measure the radiative effect of atmospheric CO2 concentration but nobody wants it done in case the work shoots the goose laying the golden eggs of AGW research funding. Remember, research is enabled by research funds, research administrators have a duty to sustain the flow of research funds, and researchers can only do the research that is funded.
Tenekes lost his job as Director of the Dutch Meteorological Institute and at least two US State climatologists have lost their jobs because they refused to toe the pro-AGW line. Not everybody needs to be sacked for everybody to get the message.
Then there are the effects of the activists on scientists. The eco-terrorists are despicable. They lie, smear, defame and attack climate realists in every way possible. I have suffered much (two computer systems destroyed by concerted and sophisticated attacks, complaint to the Methodist Church – I am an Accredited Methodist Preacher – that my work in the world was discrediting the Church with result that I had to cease work and so lose income while this was investigated, etc.), but others have had worse. For example, Tim Ball has had death threats and I have not had those. Look at the some of the so-called debate in this forum (it is typical) and consider the proportion of scientists who would be willing to put their heads above the parapet to be shot at like that.
For every scientist who speaks against AGW there are dozens who have been scared off from speaking out.
So, check the science and not who says it. There is good and bad science on both sides of the AGW debate.
And in terms of checking the facts you are completely mistaken when you say;
“Another example is your claim that the IPCC has “dropped” Mann’s hockey stick. This is not the case, as evidenced by the latest report. Like the 1998 claim, the term “dropped” may not be exactly false, since the hockey stick has a less prominent place in the report than previously, but it is certainly misleading.”
The IPCC HAS dropped the hockey stick and it is NOT in the latest IPCC report (AR4). Indeed, AR4 says that historical temperature variation is less than reported in the previous IPCC report that contained the hockey stick. Read AR4 for yourself and see.
Another example of you having been misled is your statement saying;
“Similarly, the sceptic claim that ‘anthropogenic global warming stopped in 1998’ is also subtly misleading, not just due to the cherry-pick, but also because many claimants reject AGW. In that case, any claim that AGW stopped in 1998 is for these people not a scientific claim, but in fact a political one, even if ironic.”
It matters not if some people do or do not accept the AGW hypothesis. The truth of a matter is important not who says. And the truth is that global warming has stopped. Joe D’Aleo puts it clearly at Icecap
http://icecap.us/index.php/go/joes-blog/cold_april_for_the_united_states/
As you say, “subtle misdirections can be more destructive to reasoned debate than outright falsehoods”. I strongly agree, but I observe that it seems somebody has given you some misdirections. So, I again ask you to check facts for yourself. Please do not accept the word of me or anybody else: instead, be skeptical and check all the words you get about AGW.
Richard
Sorry for the late answer, but my internet was down for 4 days.
Anyway:
Jeb: “Yes it is. Again, it may be counterintuitive but it is far easier to predict long term averages over time than to predict transitory states at a particular place at a particular moment. The example of the drop of water in the Gulf Stream is illustrative of this.”
Boris: “Really? Okay, you predict the temperature at noon in Chicago on June 1st and I’ll predict the average temperature in Chicago for June. Think you can get closer than me?”
But who tries to predict the exact state of the atmosphere at a particular moment of time anyway? Weather prediction and climate prediction are concered about the same thing, that is the “(average) conditions of the atmosphere”. They only differ in the time interval.
As Waller just said: “But in the virtual world, they are forecasted the same way.”
If it is so much easier to make long term predictions, why are so many false or grossly inaccurate, and why are so many more short term forecast (1-3 days) right? Maybe Chaos Theory has some explanations for this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory, especially http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect). Butterfly effect: “Small variations of the initial condition of a dynamical system may produce large variations in the long term behavior of the system.” With the relatively poor data that we have today it is quite hopeless to make acurate long term predictions.
Rational Animal: That humanity is able to severely harm itself is against the most basic laws of living nature: The Law of Self Preservation, and the Law of Preservation of the Species.”
Jeb: “What people do or do not do to preserve themselves greatly depends upon the quality of information they possess. History is littered with examples of people and other organisms (many no longer with us) with poor information acting a way that ensured their destruction. To assume that we will inherently act in a way that will best preserve us is religious thinking.”
Well, first, i did not appeal to any religion but to biology.
Second, it is true that history is littered with people that destroyed themselves, BUT there many more people (maybe by a factor of 1000 or 10000) that acted in such a way that preserved their existence. And maybe there are some organisms that destroyed themselves, but again there are many many more, which acted in such a way that ensured their existence. One might put forward the objection, that by now many species are extinct, to which the answer is, that most of them were not destroyed by their own actions but by outside influences.
Natural laws are only idealizations, most of them admit some exceptions, but exceptions only prove the rule. And these biological facts are much better established and have far more probability on their side, than the best self destruction by global warming arguments combined.
Jeb…thanks for the link.
To Richard, Jeb, and all:
I am an individual concerned with the AGW debate. Correct me if I’m misinformed or misinterpreted what I have read about GCM’s and GHG.
1.GHG predicts that the troposphere should be warming as a result of increased CO2. It is not warming. This, according to UAH and RSS satellite measurements.
2. The oceans should be warming as a result of increased CO2 and they are not. This according to measurements taken by ARGO ocean going temperature sensors for the past 5 years.
3. I asked this question in an earlier post: Do the GCM’s only consider unproven positive feedback in the climate system without including any negative feedbacks.
If GHG theory is incorrect concerning these important points, why should we believe there is a crisis?
Gordon Andelin:
I provide my answers to your questions.
Q1.
GHG predicts that the troposphere should be warming as a result of increased CO2. It is not warming. This, according to UAH and RSS satellite measurements.
A1.
Correct. This is explained and referenced in the NIPCC Report that is at
http://www.sepp.org/publications/NIPCC-Feb%2020.pdf
Q2.
The oceans should be warming as a result of increased CO2 and they are not. This according to measurements taken by ARGO ocean going temperature sensors for the past 5 years.
A2.
Correct. But, as always, what this means is open to interpretation. A good summary of the pro-AGW ‘take’ on this for non-scientists is at
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88520025
Q3.
I asked this question in an earlier post: Do the GCM’s only consider unproven positive feedback in the climate system without including any negative feedbacks.
A3.
The answer depends on how you define “feedback”. Please note that climate modelers do not use the term ‘feedback’ to mean what control engineers do. For climate modelers a positive feedback is enhancement of AGW and a negative feedback is a negation of some AGW. The most significant climate model feedback is the assumed increase of water vapour in the atmosphere with higher temperature. Water vapour being by far the most powerful GHG this is assumed to provide an enhancement of the increased warming from atmospheric CO2. Indeed, without the water vapour feedback (WVF) any warming from increased CO2 could only be trivially insignificant. Although unproven, the WVF is probably correct. However, it is assumed that sulphate aerosols cool the Earth (a debatable point but I here ignore that debate) and the WVF would therefore cool the modeled Earth (negative feedback).
I hope this is what you wanted.
Richard
Richard,
Thanks for the links to NIPCC. Read most of the text. Some of the charts and graphs are challenging to the untrained mind. The thing that stands out most of all is the fact the IPCC has used unproven or disputed assumptions as a basis for their reports. In addition, not including research after March 2006 for the 2007 report seems ingenuous, particularly if the research conflicted with previous research which supported their position. Another interesting issue I read about, was the peer review process the IPCC uses is suspect, in that at times, reviewers were affiliated with a lead author whose research was used in the SPM. This seems dubious at best and dishonest at worst. Shouldn’t peer review include scientists who are unaffiliated who would provide an unbiased review.
I had read a transcript of the NPR interview and it gave me the impression that the NASA scientist thought the data from ARGO was incorrect because it conflicted with his preconceived notion that the oceans should be warming.
Initially when first exposed to AGW information, I was of the opinion that we have a problem. However, the more research and reading I do, it becomes clear to me that AGW is hoopla.
Richard,
Why did you lie about being “published” in Nature?
Richard,
You were asked why choosing 1998 as an initial year for discontinued warming was not cherry-picking while choosing any other year in a 10 year period constitutes cherry picking.
You did not answer.
Your summary follows,
That does not explain why choosing 1998 is not cherry picking. The ~60 year cycle would allow for any year near 2000, 1998 is but one of those. That 1998 is in a virtual tie for the warmest year in recent history is not in dispute and why it is in that position (record ENSO) is not in serious dispute. What is in dispute is the appropriateness of choosing a strong El Nino year as the starting year for assessing warming trends. Why would it not be equally appropriate to choose 2000 or any of the other surrounding years that provide a different result?
and the point of that was what? Do you have a link that provides the answers that I asked regarding his assertion re warming since 1995?
I have not dismissed Lindzen. I have asked for clarification on several points directly related to his support for his assertion.
I recently returned from the Netherlands where I was researching for the past several years and that is not how things are seen there. For anyone concerned Tennekes is doing fine and is far from lost to the Dutch science scene. Last I checked he was still member of the Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences (KNAW), still lectures at the University of Nijmegen, and is still skeptical of current climate models.
Who?
Once again I am not Boris, or any other commenter here.
In a previous post I withdrew the term lobbyist (improperly used once) as inaccurate and substituted advocate or former advocate which I think is accurate. This is/was always a side issue and as I initially stated does not directly relate to the value of your arguments. You keep bringing it back to this. You continue the insults and the side show. Once again any point (personal or otherwise) of mine you show to be false I will withdraw. Barring that this sideshow should end.
“Do the GCM’s only consider unproven positive feedback in the climate system without including any negative feedbacks.”
The GCMs include all known feedbacks. Not sure what you mean by “unprovem.” The WV feedback, as Richard notes, is well founded in theory and the models predicted the correct drying of the stratosphere after the Mt. Pinatubo eruption. so we have strong confidence that the models’ predictions for CO2 warming are good as well.
I have no idea what Richard is talking about with the WV feedback being negative because of aerosols. It doesn’t make sense. Perhaps he can point as to the paper he “published” in Nature that makes this assertion.
“But who tries to predict the exact state of the atmosphere at a particular moment of time anyway?”
Perhaps this will explain why it’s easier to predict longer series when randomness is involved. You predict the ratio of heads to tails after 4 coin tosses and I’ll predict the ratio after 1,000,000 tosses.
Boris said,
The GCMs include all known feedbacks. Not sure what you mean by “unprovem.” The WV feedback, as Richard notes, is well founded in theory and the models predicted the correct drying of the stratosphere after the Mt. Pinatubo eruption. so we have strong confidence that the models’ predictions for CO2 warming are good as well.
Unproven as it applies to WV feedback is incorrect. Perhaps it should have been stated that the sensitivity assumptions were unproven. Is there any empirical evidence that CO2 sensitivity in the 21st century will be 3,4,5 times greater than previously observed in the 20th century? What about other feedbacks, such as, PDO, AMO, La Nina, solar winds and solar cycles. These all exist and correlate with, though not prove causation, changes in climate can be affected by many natural factors. These are just as plausible as CO2 causing GW. Are any of these natural variation used in the GCM’S and if so, what do the models say their affect is? How well do GCM’s factor cloud cover into their predictions? Do we know whether cloud cover causes warming or warming causes cloud cover? So many unanswered questions referring to GCM’s
Oh Boris,
Will repeat a question that Richard answered but would like your reply as you are on the opposite side of the coin. GHG theory says the troposphere should be heating more so than the earth’s surface. From what I read the troposphere is not heating as advertised. This heating was described as a “fingerprint’. If the models get this vital forecast wrong, then what are we to believe about the rest of their forecasts?
Boris,
There’s a problem with your analogy about flipping a coin 4 times or 1,000,000… Each outcome has an equally likely chance of occurring, thus 50% heads/50% tails is a sure thing after a million tries.
With the computer models, failing to account for even just one variable adequately (or even at all) results will skew the results years from now far more than it will in the short term.
I understand what you’re trying to say, and there’s some truth to it when you’re talking about past events where you’re assuming the future will be the same as the past (temp averages in Chicago in June over the past 100 years, for example). But overall trying to project what is going to happen in the FUTURE when you expect the future to be an unknown different with computer models that are inadequate or incomplete is folly. Garbage in / garbage out. Educated folly, but still folly, IMHO.
All:
For the sake of amusement only, I provide the following gem from Steve Molly’s JunkScience blog. It pertains to the petition mentioned in this forum and to the selected use – by the same people – in this forum of the “appeal to ignorance” fallacy (i.e. opinions of knowledgeable people should be ignored) and the “appeal to authority” fallacy (i.e. only opinions of “climatologists” should be considered).
The Global Warming Petition (click!) was signed by 9,021 American PhD’s and 22,051 additional American scientists.
For the sake of balance, here is the list of 100 or so most prominent climatologists who believe man-made catastrophic global warming:
Celebrities
Al Gore, B.A. Government (no science degree)
Alanis Morissette, High School Diploma
Bill Maher, B.A. English (no science degree)
Bono (Paul Hewson), High School Diploma
Daryl Hanna, B.F.A. Theater (no science degree)
Ed Begley Jr., High School Diploma
Jackson Browne, High School Diploma
Jon Bon Jovi (John Bongiovi), High School Diploma
Oprah Winfrey, B.A. Speech and Drama (no science degree)
Prince Charles of Whales, B.A. (no science degree)
Sheryl Crow, B.A. Music Education (no science degree)
Sienna Miller, High School Diploma
ABC – Sam Champion, B.A. Broadcast News (no science degree, not a meteorologist)
CBS – Harry Smith, B.A. Communications and Theater (no science degree)
CBS – Katie Couric, B.A. English (no science degree)
CBS – Scott Pelley, College Dropout
NBC – Ann Curry, B.A. Journalism (no science degree)
NBC – Anne Thompson, B.A. American studies (no science degree)
NBC – Matt Lauer. B.A. Communications (no science degree)
NBC – Meredith Vieira, B.A. English (no science degree)
Al Sharpton, College Dropout
Alicia Keys, College Dropout
Alicia Silverstone, High School Dropout
Art Bell, College Dropout
Ben Affleck, College Dropout
Ben Stiller, College Dropout
Billy Jean King, College Dropout
Brad Pitt, College Dropout
Britney Spears, High School Dropout
Bruce Springsteen, College Dropout
Cameron Diaz, High School Dropout
Cindy Crawford, College Dropout
Diane Keaton, College Dropout
Drew Barrymore, High School Dropout
George Clooney, College Dropout
Gwyneth Paltrow, College Dropout
Jason Biggs, College Dropout
Jennifer Connelly, College Dropout
Jessica Simpson, High School Dropout
John Travolta, High School Dropout
Joshua Jackson, High School Dropout
Julia Louis-Dreyfus, College Dropout
Julia Roberts, College Dropout
Kanye West, College Dropout
Keanu Reeves, High School Dropout
Kevin Bacon, High School Dropout
Kiefer Sutherland, High School Dropout
Leonardo DiCaprio, High School Dropout
Lindsay Lohan, High School Dropout
Ludacris (Christopher Bridges), College Dropout
Madonna (Madonna Ciccone), College Dropout
Matt Damon, College Dropout
Matthew Modine, College Dropout
Michael Moore, College Dropout
Nicole Richie, College Dropout
Neve Campbell, High School Dropout
Olivia Newton-John, High School Dropout
Orlando Bloom, High School Dropout
Paris Hilton, High School Dropout
Pierce Brosnan. High School Dropout
Queen Latifah (Dana Elaine Owens), College Dropout
Richard Branson, High School Dropout
Robert Redford, College Dropout
Rosie O’Donnell, College Dropout
Sarah Silverman, College Dropout
Sean Penn, College Dropout
Ted Turner, College Dropout
Tommy Lee (Thomas Lee Bass), High School Dropout
Uma Thurman, High School Dropout
Willie Nelson, High School Dropout
Politicians:
John McCain, B.S. (Graduated 894th out of 899 in his class)
Newt Gingrich, Ph.D. Modern European History (no science degree) (Hypocrite)
Pat Robertson, B.A., J.D., M.A. Divinity (no science degree)
Robert F. Kennedy Jr, B.A. Government, J.D. Law (no science degree, ‘recovered’ Heroin addict)
Scientists:
Bill Nye, B.S. Mechanical Engineering (Bill Nye the Science Guy)
Gavin Schmidt, B.A. Ph.D. Applied Mathematics (RealClimate.org)
James Hansen, B.A. Physics and Mathematics, M.S. Astronomy, Ph.D. Physics (NASA, Gavin Schmidt’s Boss)
James Lovelock, Ph.D. Medicine, D.Sc. Biophysics
Lonnie Thompson, Ph.D. Geological Sciences
Michael Mann, A.B. Applied Math, Physics, M.S. Physics, Ph.D. Geology & Geophysics (RealClimate.org)
Michael Oppenheimer, S.B. Chemistry, Ph.D. Chemical Physics
Richard C. J. Somerville, Ph.D. Meteorology
Steven Schneider, Ph.D. Mechanical Engineering and Plasma Physics
Social Scientists:
Ronald Bailey, B.A. Philosophy and Economics (Science Correspondent, Reason Magazine)
Richard
Richard: “Evidence for the AGW hypothesis would be provided by some climate change that the AGW hypothesis alone explains.”
What is required is that AGW theory should ‘better’ explain current climate change than any other theory or hypothesis. That is, the evidence should be more consistent with, and not falsify, AGW theory over other hypotheses.
The fact that you can’t produce any likely evidence that would “alone” explain AGW shows that you are asking the impossible.
There’s a similarity here with aspects of the ‘debate’ over evolutionary theory. For example, creationists, and latterly the ID crowd, often demand the production of ‘transitional forms’ as ‘proof’ of evolution. The best the evolution defender can do is point to factors such as natural selection and genetics, and the fact that all forms of life are in a sense transitional. The creationist, of course, demands to see the ‘smoking gun’, while ignoring the weight of evidence that supports the theory.
“And as I explained to you previously, actions taken in response to the AGW hypothesis threaten the lives of millions of people.”
Lack of action against AGW may also threaten human life. That said, sceptics are quick to condemn warmists for ‘alarmism’, but are just as quick to indulge in their own form of alarmism.
“If GCMs cannot model the climate effects that do affect global climate then there is no reason to accept the GCMs’ ‘projections’of AGW’s effects.”
I was talking about the ability of climate models to forecast long-term warming, ie the injection of additional heat energy into the atmospheric system. The models used to forecast long-term effects are not suited to the short term. Obviously, short-term ESNO-type effects are very important for peoples’ lives, but as I understand it, there is an increasing focus on these phenomena, as per the recent Keenleyside study.
“The IPCC HAS dropped the hockey stick and it is NOT in the latest IPCC report (AR4).”
Ch 6 of the Working Group Report – The Physical Science Basis has an extensive discussion of the “hockey stick” reconstruction of recent temperatures and shows a hockey-type graph on p 467.
“Indeed, that Institute is very right wing…”
I wasn’t criticising Heartland’s political orientation, rather its tendency towards conspiracy thinking. A conspiracy requires above all secrecy, and yet sceptics are screaming to the rooftops about this alleged AGW conspiracy. Just another piece of illogic from people who also demand ‘debate’ with those they believe are inveterate liars.
“It matters not if some people do or do not accept the AGW hypothesis.”
It does matter if you want to have a “debate” about climate. Taking again the 1998 claim, the term ‘global warming’ is accepted shorthand for ‘anthropogenic global warming’ or AGW. Therefore, the claim that ‘global warming stopped in 1998’ means that: ‘until 1998, AGW was occurring, but it stopped in 1998’.
However, most sceptics would reject the claim that ‘until 1998, AGW was occurring’. In that case, sceptics who claim that ‘global warming stopped in 1998’ are in effect saying: ‘until 1998, global warming was not occurring, and it stopped in 1998’. This further piece of illogic shows that the 1998 claim has little to do with science and a lot to do with ideology.
“From what I read the troposphere is not heating as advertised. This heating was described as a “fingerprint’. If the models get this vital forecast wrong, then what are we to believe about the rest of their forecasts?”
This is a good question.
First, the troposphere is warming as expected. It is the tropical troposphere that has not shown the warming models predict. Tropical tropospheric records are spotty at best, and it is probable, if not likely, that more data will resolve the discrepancy.
As for the tropical tropospheric warming being a “fingerprint” for CO2 warming, this is not true. The warming of the troposphere at the surface will create an even greater warming in the troposphere due to the wet (or saturated) adiabatic lapse rate. This is true of any warming at all–not just CO2. So, if the models were wrong, it means that we would need to rethink what we know about the lapse rate, especially in the tropics.
A real “fingerprint” of CO2 warming is a cooling stratosphere. This was predicted by models and theory and has been confirmed by observation.
“Is there any empirical evidence that CO2 sensitivity in the 21st century will be 3,4,5 times greater than previously observed in the 20th century?”
Empirical observations do support the models conclusions.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/climate-sensitivity.htm
Richard says “For the sake of balance, here is the list of 100 or so most prominent climatologists who believe man-made catastrophic global warming:”
I would attach the entire list of scientists who worked on the IPCC AR$ WGI, but that list is too long! So I’ll just copy and past the As:
ACHUTARAO, Krishna
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
USA
ADLER, Robert
National Aeronautics and
Space Administration
USA
ALEXANDER, Lisa
Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction
and Research, Met Office
UK, Australia, Ireland
ALEXANDERSSON, Hans
Swedish Meteorological and
Hydrological Institute
Sweden
ALLAN, Richard
Environmental Systems Science
Centre, University of Reading
UK
ALLEN, Myles
Climate Dynamics Group, Atmospheric,
Oceanic and Planetary Physics, Department
of Physics, University of Oxford
UK
ALLEY, Richard B.
Department of Geosciences,
Pennsylvania State University
USA
ALLISON, Ian
Australian Antarctic Division and
Antarctic Climate and Ecosystems
Cooperative Research Centre
Australia
AMBENJE, Peter
Kenya Meteorological Department
Kenya
AMMANN, Caspar
Climate and Global Dynamics Division,
National Center for Atmospheric Research
USA
ANDRONOVA, Natalia
University of Michigan
USA
ANNAN, James
Frontier Research Center for Global
Change, Japan Agency for Marine-
Earth Science and Technology
Japan, UK
ANTONOV, John
National Oceanic and
Atmospheric Administration
USA, Russian Federation
ARBLASTER, Julie
National Center for Atmospheric Research
and Bureau of Meteotology Research Center
USA, Australia
ARCHER, David
University of Chicago
USA
ARORA, Vivek
Canadian Centre for Climate Modelling
and Analysis, Environment Canada
Canada
ARRITT, Raymond
Iowa State University
USA
ARTALE, Vincenzo
Italian National Agency for
New Technologies, Energy and
the Environment (ENEA)
Italy
ARTAXO, Paulo
Instituto de Fisica, Universidade
de Sao Paulo
Brazil
AUER, Ingeborg
Central Institute for Meteorology
and Geodynamics
Austria
AUSTIN, John
National Oceanic and Atmospheric
Administration, Geophysical
Fluid Dynamics Laboratory
USA
http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/Report/AR4WG1_Print_Annexes.pdf
(see Annex 2)
Only_Truth,
“With the computer models, failing to account for even just one variable adequately (or even at all) results will skew the results years from now far more than it will in the short term.”
Obviously, the coin analogy is much simplified. With respect to your point, I think it a makes some sense, but the climate models are a boundary problem and not an initial state problem. So what matters is that the physical processes are modeled appropriately. To model every physical process is, as many note, impossible. However, the idea that some short term errors will propagate exponentially is not supported by looking at the models runs themselves, which are quite stable on timescales of centuries and much longer. Moreover, as I noted above, models have been accurate in terms of predicting the Mt. Pinatubo response and other things, like response to ENSO and paleo and 20th century hiundcasts.
So, I agree that your concern has merit in theory, but the evidence suggests it is not a problem.
Boris said:
A real “fingerprint” of CO2 warming is a cooling stratosphere. This was predicted by models and theory and has been confirmed by observation. However, at another blog Boris posted this:
Boris April 27th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
However, stratospheric cooling is the fingerprint of GHG warming. But ozone depletion is confounding that signal somewhat.
Another related post at the above mentioned blog:
In any case, the fingerprint of AGW is asserted by the models. That is, the models say, if you have AGW, then you will see this fingerprint.
When allegeded fingerprint is slow to show, they say. wait a few years. After a while of no show, they say,
the models while largely correct need adjustment in this area.
Crap, guys, raise your hand if you danced this kind of dance before. everybody? ya I thought so.
Modelers Anonymous.
This just says to me that other factors come into play and absolute statements about AGW are to to taken with a grain of salt, particularly when GCM’S are the source of the statements.
Boris, I went to the link you provided:
http://www.skepticalscience.com/climate-sensitivity.htm
There is a conflict of opinion on the sensitivity issue and no clear cut answer.
BTW, I asked about warming from cloud cover or cloud cover from warming. Is there a definitive answer to this issue?
I noticed an encouraging development of late. William Briggs’s blog and Lucia L of the ‘Blackboard’ blog are providing statistical balance to Tamino of RealClimate. I don’t pretend to understand all the advanced statistics they use but I can derive useful information from their written conclusions.
All these discussions and links to studies, etc seem to suggest that the science of AGW is not a settled issue and the GCM’s are not the final arbiter.
How many of those with PhDs in a related field? A PhD in psychology does not make you any more qualified to speak on the climate than Willie Nelson.
Have the names on the petition been independently verified?
Still no substantive answer on 1998 or the Jacobson cite, why is that?
Eddie:
I concede and agree your point when you say;
“What is required is that AGW theory should ‘better’ explain current climate change than any other theory or hypothesis. That is, the evidence should be more consistent with, and not falsify, AGW theory over other hypotheses.”
OK. But AGW does not – repeat, not – explain anything better than the null hypothesis that all the recently observed climate changes have the same cause as similar changes that recently preceded them.
As I said, it is the duty of those who provide a hypothesis to prove it. To date no evidence – n.b. none of any kind – has been provided to show that AGW exists. This is in stark contrast to evolutionary theories that have an immense amount of empirical supporting evidence at all levels of complexity from the molecular to the species.
In response to my saying;
“And as I explained to you previously, actions taken in response to the AGW hypothesis threaten the lives of millions of people.”
You reply
“Lack of action against AGW may also threaten human life. That said, sceptics are quick to condemn warmists for ‘alarmism’, but are just as quick to indulge in their own form of alarmism.”
No!
Action to cut carbon dioxide is certain – yes, certain – to kill millions of people, mostly children. And I explained why this is a certainty. It would be a criminal act comparable to the holocaust to deliberately kill millions because otherwise something (e.g. AGW) “may” happen. So, as I said;
“In other words, the AGW hypothesis is like somebody shouting “Fire!” in a crowded room because they think a fire could exist although there is no sign of a fire.”
The shout of “Fire!” is alarmism and asking people to keep calm is not.
You say,
“I was talking about the ability of climate models to forecast long-term warming, ie the injection of additional heat energy into the atmospheric system. The models used to forecast long-term effects are not suited to the short term.”
Really? The GCMs are not suited to predict the short term? Then what makes you think they can predict anything? No model has existed for sufficient time to have demonstrated predictive skill over decades and/or centuries.
A model cannot be trusted to ‘project’ climate effects that nobody has experienced when it cannot emulate the climate effects we all experience. Only a blind fool or a religious bigot could think otherwise.
Then you assert:
Ch 6 of the Working Group Report – The Physical Science Basis has an extensive discussion of the “hockey stick” reconstruction of recent temperatures and shows a hockey-type graph on p 467.
The IPCC has dropped pretence that the discredited ‘hockey stick’ graph of Mann, Bradley and Hughes (MBH) is other than twaddle. A “hockey-type graph” is not the MBH hockey stick. Indeed, Michael Mann was Lead Author of the IPCC chapter of IPCC 2001 that presented the hockey stick (although the ‘hockey stick’ was copied into other chapters and the SPM of that report). Choosing Mann as the Lead Author was guaranteed to ensure that he would present his own graph that revolutionized climate history by removing the Medieval Warm Period (MWP) and the Little Ice Age (LIA). He was not Lead Author of Chapter 6 of WG1 of IPCC 2007 and its “hockey-type graph” reinstates the MWP and LIA albeit with lower ranges than almost all publications indicate.
Please discuss what I say and not ‘straw men’. The Jeb character in this forum does enough of that without you doing it, too.
Then you say;
“A conspiracy requires above all secrecy, and yet sceptics are screaming to the rooftops about this alleged AGW conspiracy. Just another piece of illogic from people who also demand ‘debate’ with those they believe are inveterate liars.”
Wow! Now that is a list of invective in two short sentences.
Firstly, I have been denying the existence of such a “conspiracy” since Bottcher first proposed it in his 1996 paper. Indeed, a denial of it I posted in 1997 is at
http://www.john-daly.com/history.htm
AGW skeptics are “screaming to the rooftops” that AGW is unproven and unlikely, not that there is a “conspiracy”. Almost all the skeptics see a bandwagon, and nobody needs to conspire to get people to climb on the bandwagon when it is heading in a direction they want to go.
AGW skepticism is purely logical.
And the title “liars” is thrown about with abandon by AGW proclaimers but not by AGW skeptics (look at this forum for examples of this).
Then you quote me out of context when you cite me as saying;
“It matters not if some people do or do not accept the AGW hypothesis.”
Clearly, your selected quotation of my words implies I was suggesting that AGW is not an important issue and not an important political issue. And that implication results from you presenting those words out of their context. Indeed, you stress the misleading implication by saying;
“It does matter if you want to have a “debate” about climate.”
However, in their original context my words do not suggest any such thing. My complete paragraph says;
“It matters not if some people do or do not accept the AGW hypothesis. The truth of a matter is important not who says. And the truth is that global warming has stopped. Joe D’Aleo puts it clearly at Icecap
http://icecap.us/index.php/go/joes-blog/cold_april_for_the_united_states/”.
Again, the Jeb character provides all the quotations out of context that anybody could need, so there is no proper reason for you to do it too.
Then you obfuscate by confusing global warming (GW) and anthropogenic global warming (AGW). And you say;
“… most sceptics would reject the claim that ‘until 1998, AGW was occurring’. In that case, sceptics who claim that ‘global warming stopped in 1998’ are in effect saying: ‘until 1998, global warming was not occurring, and it stopped in 1998’. This further piece of illogic shows that the 1998 claim has little to do with science and a lot to do with ideology.”
But all my contributions to this forum have made a clear distinction between GW and AGW. Furthermore, I have made it clear in my postings here that there is no conclusive evidence that AGW is happening and there is no conclusive evidence that AGW is not happening, either. My position has been perfectly logical and consistent, and I have been opposing ideological positions. Indeed, in answer to a question posed by Gordon Andelin I included reference to a URL that I told him included “the pro-AGW ‘take’ on this for non-scientists” although I am extremely doubtful of the existence of AGW.
Importantly, AGW is an ideology. It is a hypothesis with no supporting empirical evidence of any kind that is being used as the reason and the justification for political actions.
The fact that AGW is an ideology is spelled out in Chapter 2 of Working Group 3 in the report by IPCC 2001 where it says:
“Perhaps the most powerful conclusion emerging from both the post-SRES analyses and the review of the general futures literature is that it may be possible to very significantly reduce GHG emissions through integration of climate policies with general socio-economic policies, which are not customarily as climate policies at all.”
Simply, this IPCC conclusion calls for changes to socio-economic policies that are not climate policies (at very least, this conclusion provides an excuse for such changes). And the Chapter’s Introduction states that these changes are intended to achieve “a more desirable future state” based on “societal visions of the future”. (There are many differing opinions on what would be a “a more desirable future state” (c.f. those of Mussolini and Marx) but the Chapter does not overtly state its definition of “desirable”.)
Furthermore, this conclusion derived by the method that generated it for the purpose stated in the Chapter is an abuse of science. Indeed, it is not science to make predictions of how to change the future by use of selected scenarios when – as the same IPCC chapter admits – “no systematic analysis has published on the relationship between mitigation and baseline scenarios”: this is pseudo-science of precisely the same type as astrology
It is a defence of science to demand some evidence for the ideology of AGW when those proclaiming that ideology assert it is “science”. And if attempting to defend science against its abuse and misuse makes me an ideologue, then so be it.
Richard
Is that supposed to be some sort of “gotcha” there Gordon?
GHGs cool the upper strat.
Ozone depletion cools the lower strat.
Both are cooling significantly, but the upper strat is cooling most of all.
See here:
http://www.atmosphere.mpg.de/enid/20c.html
The fact is that Christopher Monckton appears to be the source for the idea that tropical tropospheric temperatures are a “fingerprint” for GHG warming. But this is based on a misreading of the IPCC report. If you look around on climate blogs enough, you’ll find where I discuss this in more detail.
“It would be a criminal act comparable to the holocaust to deliberately kill millions because otherwise something (e.g. AGW) “may” happen.”
This might be the stupidest thing ever said on the internet. Yes, I want to deliberately kill children, Richard. I’m going to eat them too. Also, I am a witch. Booga.
Boris,
No gotcha intended, only that you made a disclaimer in your post at the Blackboard blog. I went to atmosphere site and it still leaves me unconvinced and here are a few of their statements:
Is the stratosphere cooling?
It’s, of course, harder to measure the temperature in the stratosphere than in the troposphere where we have a network of measurement stations. Stratospheric temperature measurements do exist. They have been made using weather balloons, microwave sounding units, rocketsondes, LIDAR and satellites. Most of these readings only go back two or three decades at most and there are large uncertainities associated with the data.
The lower stratosphere appears to be cooling by about 0.5°C per decade. This cooling trend is interrupted by large volcanic eruptions which lead to a temporary warming of the stratosphere and last for one to two years. Calculations from many research institutes generally estimate the cooling trend for the last two decades (1979-2000) to be greater than for the previous period (1958-1978).
The words ‘appears’ and ‘generally estimates’ tie in directly with ‘uncertainties’ in the previous paragraph.
We now know that stratospheric cooling and tropospheric warming are intimately connected and that carbon dioxide plays a part in both processes. At present, however, our understanding of stratospheric cooling is not complete and further research has to be done. We do, however, already know that observed and predicted cooling in the stratosphere makes the formation of an Arctic ozone hole more likely.
The clincher is this last paragraph, ‘At present, however, our understanding of stratospheric cooling is not complete and further research has to be done.’
Boris, when you make these statements, they sound as if there is no question and this is gospel. When the authors of this information admit there are uncertainties, use the terms appears and generally estimates, and incomplete understanding when referring to stratospheric cooling, doesn’t this suggest it isn’t quite gospel. At the bottom of their web page is the date the paper was published…Nov 2004. Is there any more current information?
Gordon,
Welcome to scientific language. Nothing is proven. There are always uncertainties when measuring the real world. Uncertainty does not mean we don’t know enough to draw conclusions and it does not mean that we cannot act on the information we do have.
I freely admit that the AGW theory could be wrong. However, the vast majority of evidence points in the direction of AGW. Evolution or the germ theory of disease could be wrong as well, but they are supported by vaster evidence.
Boris,
I appreciate your candidness about science but in the 2nd paragraph…There you go again….”However, the vast majority of evidence points in the direction of AGW”. You still make these statements as if they are gospel. I could make the opposite claim….the vast majority of evidence points away from AGW. Neither one means much.
Below is a statement from Dr Roy Spencer. Am sure you are familiar with Dr Spencer.
Dr. Roy W. Spencer—a principal research scientist for the University of Alabama in Huntsville and the U.S. Science Team Leader for the Advanced Microwave Scanning Radiometer (AMSR-E) on NASA’s Aqua satellite, recently asked these questions:
1) Why are all of the more than 20 IPCC climate models more sensitive in their total cloud feedback than published estimates of cloud feedbacks in the real climate system?
2) Regarding those observational estimates of (somewhat) positive cloud feedbacks: How do you know that the cloud changes that have been observed during temperature changes really are “feedbacks”? In other words, how do you know that the temperature changes caused the cloud changes, rather than the other way around?
3) How do you know that the average global warming trend that has, indeed, been observed since 1970 wasn’t the result of a small, natural change in cloud cover? Doesn’t it seem like (another) coincidence that the Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO) just happened to shift to a different mode in 1977, about the time that the warming started?
These questions are a big part of why I have a difficult time believing in the AGW.
Let the record reflect that when the rubber hit the road, Boris was non-responsive.
All:
Boris says;
“Yes, I want to deliberately kill children, Richard. I’m going to eat them too. Also, I am a witch. Booga.”
Ah, his admitting that explains his behaviour in this forum. It is always good to get confirmation of appearances from the horse’s mouth.
Richard
Thanks to everyone, on both sides, for the excellent comments, even the insulting ones – sticks and stones. As several of you noted, the debate clearly isn’t over. I’m not going to address individual comments, as I’d be here all day. Due to the incredible response I’m working a follow-up piece for Pajamas which I hope to have up in the next couple of days – then we can all go at it again.
Mike:
For your “follow up piece” you may want to contact David Henderson whose views of the IPCC process and the problems it causes can be seen at
http://www.staff.livjm.ac.uk/spsbpeis/Henderson-2008.htm
Incidentally, my publication in Nature was on the same subject (most Nature publications are “letters” so the comments in your forum that mine does not exist because it is a “letter” are plain daft).
And please feel free to ask me for any help in suggesting sources on both ‘sides’ of the AGW debate if that would help your “follow up”.
With congratulations on your article that induced such passionate debate
Richard
Richard: “Action to cut carbon dioxide is certain – yes, certain – to kill millions of people, mostly children… It would be a criminal act comparable to the holocaust…The shout of “Fire!” is alarmism and asking people to keep calm is not.”
So accusing people of genocide is an example of ‘calmism’. Remind me to stand clear when you really erupt.
“The GCMs are not suited to predict the short term? Then what makes you think they can predict anything?”
As I said, some models are not suited to the short term. Others are.
“A model cannot be trusted to ‘project’ climate effects that nobody has experienced when it cannot emulate the climate effects we all experience. Only a blind fool or a religious bigot could think otherwise.”
Civility, please. You are confusing weather and climate. Equally important, the distinction between the long and short term models is actually a distinction between specific events and general scenarios. Take the analogy of life insurance. The actuary who calculates your risk cannot say exactly when and where you will die, nor what you will die of. Nevertheless, the actuary has sufficient information about you and your cohort to be able to persuade his company to make a substantial monetary bet against your premature demise.
The assumption underlying claims about the impossibility of forecasting is that we know nothing about climate. In fact, climate science is based on well-established principles of physics and chemistry, and the CO2 thesis has been around for 150 years.
Even more so, the claim that we cannot project or produce future climate scenarios is also based on the assumption that the climate system is utterly chaotic. Not so. We know with a fair degree of certainty that water will always precipitate downwards, that warm air will rise, that weather systems will move from areas of high pressure to areas of low pressure, and so on. While it may be generally acceptable to say that weather is ‘chaotic’, that chaos operates within limits, and we can know those limits.
“And the title “liars” is thrown about with abandon by AGW proclaimers but not by AGW skeptics (look at this forum for examples of this).”
A quick Google search will show that AGW sceptics also freely use the ‘L’ word, eg: “Other Al Gore and global warming liars…Gore Lied, Poor People in need of Energy and Technology Died…It is ignorant idiots like you that that allow self admitted Liars like Al Gore…”Liars , Damned Liars and Al Gore…Earth Day is a holiday for liars…The Biggest Liars On Earth: The UN’s Global Warming Panel”. And so on.
“Clearly, your selected quotation of my words implies I was suggesting that AGW is not an important issue and not an important political issue.”
No it doesn’t. I well understood that you were arguing that truth does not depend on the messenger. My point was that debate requires good faith and in particular consistency. To claim that global warming is not occurring, but that anyway it stopped in 1998 is to change horses in mid-stream.
“Then you obfuscate by confusing global warming (GW) and anthropogenic global warming (AGW).”
No I don’t. This is what I said: “…the term ‘global warming’ is an accepted shorthand for ‘anthropogenic global warming’ or AGW”.
“But all my contributions to this forum have made a clear distinction between GW and AGW.”
I’m glad you agree that changing the argument half-way is a poor debating tactic. You have mostly been careful to use phrases such as ‘warming phase’ and the like to reflect your position, but most sceptics do not.
Eddie:
I took Mike’s posting to indicate that this debate in this forum had been closed, so I wrote to offer assistance with his promised forthcoming article. However, the posting in this forum of that offer and your subsequent message show that I was mistaken. So, I am replying to your message to me, but I see little point in further debate (this probably means that you will ‘get the last word’).
You object to my having said:
“Action to cut carbon dioxide is certain – yes, certain – to kill millions of people, mostly children… It would be a criminal act comparable to the holocaust…The shout of “Fire!” is alarmism and asking people to keep calm is not.”
Your objection is an error. It is not “alarmism” to state why the shout of “Fire!” is harmful: it is factual, reasoned argument for calm.
I explained why action to cut carbon dioxide is certain to kill millions of people, mostly children. If my explanation is flawed in any way then please tell me (and others) the flaw. Your rhetorical response is a logical fallacy, and your resort to it implies that you can see no flaw in my explanation.
You said the GCMs are not suited to predict the short term so I pointed out that no GCM has existed for sufficient time to demonstrate any long-term predictive skill and I asked you;
“Then what makes you think they can predict anything?”
You respond by asserting that I am “confusing weather and climate”. But , no, I AM NOT, YOU ARE.
The GCMs cannot predict ENSO, PDO, etc that are short-term climate effects (which alter and generate weather effects). I am saying that we know the GCMs can not make predictions of these short-term climate effects and we do not know if they can make long-term climate predictions because no GCM has existed for sufficient time to show any skill at long-term climate predictions. And it is not a lack of “civility” to state – as I now repeat – that;
“A model cannot be trusted to ‘project’ climate effects that nobody has experienced when it cannot emulate the climate effects we all experience. Only a blind fool or a religious bigot could think otherwise.”
My statement is simply true. (Your complaint is an example of a call for political correctness that always occurs when the ‘beliefs’ of AGW advocates are mentioned, but AGW advocates rain defamations, insults and abuse on climate realists; e.g. see this forum.)
Your use of actuaries and insurance as analogies is misplaced.
An actuary makes statistical predictions on the basis of observed histories of bulk deaths in the populations. And, insurance companies do not make a “bet” that I will die at a specific time. Actuaries calculate from past history that a proportion of people with my age, health record, affluence and life style are likely to live to a certain age with a statistical distribution of survivals around that age. Therefore, insurance companies use that actuarial information to decide whether or not accept me for insurance and set my insurance premium accordingly.
The behaviour of the actuaries is like that of climatologists who observe the climate cycles and predict the future of those cycles. For example, there is at present much debate on when solar cycle 24 will start. And that debate demonstrates how little is understood concerning climate cycles compared to what is known about human mortality rates. And my repeatedly saying that – on the basis of observed climate cycles – “we do not know if the recent halt to global warming is temporary, will resume or will be followed by global cooling” is like an insurance company saying it does not have sufficient actuarial information to set an insurance premium.
Importantly, an actuary makes assessments of the bulk and not the specific. He does not make assessment of each possible cause of death that exists for each individual then make predictions of specific deaths on that basis. No actuary behaves in that way because the complexity of such a model is very unlikely to provide a correct forecast. But that is what GCMs are constructed to do. And, attempt to make regional climate forecasts is very precisely analogous to trying to do that. But only regional climate forecasts of GCMs are useful because people live in regions and not ‘globally’. Similarly, people are interested in local weather forecasts and not ‘global’ weather forecasts.
And you assert
“The assumption underlying claims about the impossibility of forecasting is that we know nothing about climate. In fact, climate science is based on well-established principles of physics and chemistry, and the CO2 thesis has been around for 150 years.”
Firstly, there is a gross difference between saying
(1) GCM forecasts can not be trusted (as I say)
and
(2) such forecasts are “impossible” (which I do not say).
And I do not assume “that we know nothing about climate”. I have made no such assumption, and I know of nobody who does. Of course we have some knowledge of climate. At issue is the assertion of climate modelers that they understand climate so well that they can predict climate behaviour. Their assertion is unproven and staggeringly arrogant. As I have repeatedly pointed out, we know quite a bit about the human brain that is less complex than the climate system, but nobody claims to be able to predict human brain behaviour (except in such gross terms that the predictions are meaningless).
And the hypothesis (n.b. it is not a “thesis”) that CO2 governs climate has no supporting empirical evidence of any kind. Please note that I have repeatedly stated this, my statement is easy to refute (one scrap of empirical evidence would refute it), but nobody has attempted to refute it).
Then you make a gross error when you say;
”Even more so, the claim that we cannot project or produce future climate scenarios is also based on the assumption that the climate system is utterly chaotic.”
No! The “future climate scenarios” are generated in three stages; i.e.
(a) “Storylines” of future human activity changing over time are created (i.e. social/technology change scenarios).
(b) For each “storyline”, the GHG emissions anticipated in future years are estimated (i.e. emissions modelling).
(c) The changes to mean global temperature in future years resulting from the anticipated future GHG emissions are estimated (i.e. climate modelling).
The complete scenario contains all three stages; (a), (b) and (c). Hence, in each complete scenario, accumulating effects resulting from social/technology changes alter extrapolations from existing social/technology systems, existing GHG emissions, and existing climate. The scenario authors say the “scenarios deal with the future, so they cannot be compared with observations” (ref. IPCC 2001).
The scenarios can be challenged because they contain gross assumptions that many peer reviewed papers – including one of mine – have shown to be ridiculous. Anybody can make up any “storyline” he/she wants.
I answered your accusation that AGW skeptics call AGW promoters liars by my correct statement saying:
“And the title “liars” is thrown about with abandon by AGW proclaimers but not by AGW skeptics (look at this forum for examples of this).”
You respond
A quick Google search will show that AGW sceptics also freely use the ‘L’ word, eg: “Other Al Gore and global warming liars…Gore Lied, Poor People in need of Energy and Technology Died…It is ignorant idiots like you that that allow self admitted Liars like Al Gore…”Liars , Damned Liars and Al Gore…Earth Day is a holiday for liars…The Biggest Liars On Earth: The UN’s Global Warming Panel”. And so on.
I can not answer for everything on the web. But it is a fact proven in a UK Court that Al Gore in his film titled “An Inconvenient Truth” presents a series of lies. There is a profound difference between
(i) pointing out that a propagandist in a propaganda film presents statements that a Court of law has found to be lies,
and
(ii) smearing anybody as a “liar” because they do not agree with assertions of AGW.
I still dislike your having quoted me out of context, but I accept your statement that you did not intend the clear impression that you gave.
As for your distinguishing me from “most sceptics”, you are entitled to your value judgement and I am entitled to disagree with it.
But I very strongly agree with you when you say;
“… debate requires good faith and in particular consistency”.
Richard
Mike,
For your next piece you might want to learn how to calculate an OLS trend and perhaps consult some actual literature rather than op-eds and think tank funded nonsense.
Search the ISI database for starters, or at the very least Google scholar. Libraries are also helpful.
Richard: “Your objection is an error. It is not “alarmism” to state why the shout of “Fire!” is harmful…”
My objection is to the alarmism of shouting genocide.
“But , no, I AM NOT, YOU ARE.”
No need to shout. I take your point that ENSO-type events are short-term climate phenomena. But my original point holds that the main climate models are concerned with long-term warming, not the short-term effects of re-distribution, although it seems that studies are turning in the direction of these shorter term phenomena.
“(Your complaint is an example of a call for political correctness that always occurs when the ‘beliefs’ of AGW advocates are mentioned, but AGW advocates rain defamations, insults and abuse on climate realists; e.g. see this forum.)”
Sure, let’s look at this forum. A representative sample of, er , strong words: “non stop brain washing; purveyors of junk science or lunatic death cult worshippers; anthropogenic contribution is nonsense and a hoax; time to put the enviro-wacos in their place; hoax that was global warming; time will reveal the ulterior motives of those who have tried to hoodwink we common “folk.”; you have been brainwashed; angry and nasty like petulant children; the hysteria; looking like an idiot; what a bunch of suckers; scum; idiots…pornography addiction…shut up; junk stats from the global warming alarmists; GW scaremongers are religious fanatics; you dunce; GW zealots; outright lies made by the GW crowd; global Warming is an animist nature worshipping religion.”
All from the sceptic crowd. So it goes both ways. It’s not “politically correct” to point out that abuse from all sides is a fact of web life. Unless you are arguing that only sceptics should be able to tell it the way they think it is.
“No actuary behaves in that way because the complexity of such a model is very unlikely to provide a correct forecast. But that is what GCMs are constructed to do. And, attempt to make regional climate forecasts is very precisely analogous to trying to do that.”
Forecasting regional climate scenarios is analogous to forecasting regional population data, not the specific details of individuals. And researchers do forecast regional population data, but of course make no predictions about specific individuals within a region.
“But it is a fact proven in a UK Court that Al Gore in his film titled “An Inconvenient Truth” presents a series of lies.”
I’ll wrap up now, but point out that what the judge called Gores “errors” were compared against mainstream climate science and IPCC scenarios. So it looks like even the proponents of AGW can be held accountable to what is in effect the gold standard: global warming theory.
I think that you a a wee bit smart and that you should use your inteligence to write articles that people will acuallly read and stay interested in, on interessting things, And my chair is squeaky and rather annoying. Write an article on that, it’s a human interesst piece, we would enjoy that.
Oh and we like your picture of the polar bears but it is far to small But i find it sickening that you are displaying images of penguins being cooked on a stick over a fire. POOR PENGUIN
Lots of love,
Izzie and Laurenn.
xxxx
BORIS DON’T EVEN BLAME THE UK FOR GLOBAL WARMING
SICKENING.
LOVE THE PIECE MIKE.
XXXX
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