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	<title>Comments on: Germany&#8217;s Double Standard in War Crimes Trials</title>
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		<title>By: Transatlantic Intelligencer &#124; Double Standards: War Crimes Case Reveals Laxity of German Justice</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/germanys-double-standard-in-war-crimes-trials/#comment-581947</link>
		<dc:creator>Transatlantic Intelligencer &#124; Double Standards: War Crimes Case Reveals Laxity of German Justice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jul 2010 07:31:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=64739#comment-581947</guid>
		<description>[...] See my article on Pajamas Media here. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] See my article on Pajamas Media here. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Roman</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/germanys-double-standard-in-war-crimes-trials/#comment-382850</link>
		<dc:creator>Roman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 16:20:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Virtually all German formations on the Eastern Front were commanded to exercise punitive actions (execution of hostages) on an as-required basis. This is attested to by the order issued to this effect by Field Marshal Keitel to his Southeastern &lt;i&gt;Heeresgruppe&lt;/i&gt; (Army Group) on 1 Oct. 1941, which is in the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal documentation. The order applied to all Wehrmacht commanders, whether officers or NCOs.

As a concrete example of such actions, on Nov. 21, 1942, a Gestapo agent was shot and killed by the Ukrainian resistance in the City of Lviv in Galicia.  In reprisal the Germans applied their &quot;100-for-1&quot; principle by picking 100 foremost Ukrainian civilians throughout Galicia and executing them by firing squad on Nov. 27, 1942.  History does not record justice ever having been meted out to the responsible Germans, for this or any other innumerable similar war crimes committed against Ukrainians by the Germans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Virtually all German formations on the Eastern Front were commanded to exercise punitive actions (execution of hostages) on an as-required basis. This is attested to by the order issued to this effect by Field Marshal Keitel to his Southeastern <i>Heeresgruppe</i> (Army Group) on 1 Oct. 1941, which is in the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal documentation. The order applied to all Wehrmacht commanders, whether officers or NCOs.</p>
<p>As a concrete example of such actions, on Nov. 21, 1942, a Gestapo agent was shot and killed by the Ukrainian resistance in the City of Lviv in Galicia.  In reprisal the Germans applied their &#8220;100-for-1&#8243; principle by picking 100 foremost Ukrainian civilians throughout Galicia and executing them by firing squad on Nov. 27, 1942.  History does not record justice ever having been meted out to the responsible Germans, for this or any other innumerable similar war crimes committed against Ukrainians by the Germans.</p>
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		<title>By: DavidN</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/germanys-double-standard-in-war-crimes-trials/#comment-382339</link>
		<dc:creator>DavidN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 04:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I meant to say the Germans captured 3.5 million *Soviet* Prisoners of War, and starved or worked most of them to death. They generally treated those prisoners they captured from the Western Allies much better, other than the several hundred who were shot by the SS, immediately after capture, in 1940 and 1944-5.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I meant to say the Germans captured 3.5 million *Soviet* Prisoners of War, and starved or worked most of them to death. They generally treated those prisoners they captured from the Western Allies much better, other than the several hundred who were shot by the SS, immediately after capture, in 1940 and 1944-5.</p>
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		<title>By: DavidN</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/germanys-double-standard-in-war-crimes-trials/#comment-381922</link>
		<dc:creator>DavidN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 20:23:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=64739#comment-381922</guid>
		<description>maxschnaunzer: It&#039;s my impression that the SS *wasn&#039;t* part of the Wehrmacht. They had a different rank structure, different TO&amp;E&#039;s for units, were recruited differently, and though the training was the same in principle (the first SS Units were trained by das Heer at the beginning of the war) it changed over time. But Demjanjuk was Heer, part of the Wehrmacht. Definitely not SS as far as I&#039;ve heard, though it would in some ways make sense: the SS recruited more from foreign nationalities than the Wehrmacht did.

The interesting thing about this prosecution is how unique it is. Other than the little Nuremburgs just after the war, where the lesser mass-murderers like Hans Frank were prosecuted, there has been little activity on this front in Germany. One of the other commenters brought up Christopher Browning&#039;s book &quot;Ordinary Men&quot;. That book is based on the &quot;oral testimonies&quot; gathered by the German government regarding this unit in the mid-60s. The Germans apparently guaranteed anonymity for everyone who talked to their oral historians, to the point of recording literally hundreds of murders, sometimes of the elderly or infants, without prosecuting or otherwise punishing anyone. It&#039;s hard for us in the United States to imagine, but Germans are racist towards other nationalities in Europe to an extent that makes no sense to us.

So, I would imagine there are dozens, if not hundreds or even thousands of former concentration camp guards who participated in the deaths of millions. We&#039;re not just talking the six million Jews, by the way: Hitler had murdered hundreds of thousands of other people, and the Germans captured 3.5 million Prisoners of War, and worked/starved almost all of them to death by the end of the war. Demjanjuk was one of those captured; the fact that he volunteered to do something, in order to get out of starving to death in a labor camp is something of a mitigating factor.

The chief difference between Demjanjuk and these other possible defendants is that Demjanjuk isn&#039;t German. Germany, as a result, can show its zeal in prosecuting Nazi-era war criminals, without actually prosecuting any of its own citizens. Since those citizens, and their relatives, have essentially bought into the &quot;I was only following orders&quot; defense for their relatives and countrymen, Demjanjuk is a wonderful surrogate. They can prosecute him *instead* of grandpa, and the international community won&#039;t know the difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>maxschnaunzer: It&#8217;s my impression that the SS *wasn&#8217;t* part of the Wehrmacht. They had a different rank structure, different TO&amp;E&#8217;s for units, were recruited differently, and though the training was the same in principle (the first SS Units were trained by das Heer at the beginning of the war) it changed over time. But Demjanjuk was Heer, part of the Wehrmacht. Definitely not SS as far as I&#8217;ve heard, though it would in some ways make sense: the SS recruited more from foreign nationalities than the Wehrmacht did.</p>
<p>The interesting thing about this prosecution is how unique it is. Other than the little Nuremburgs just after the war, where the lesser mass-murderers like Hans Frank were prosecuted, there has been little activity on this front in Germany. One of the other commenters brought up Christopher Browning&#8217;s book &#8220;Ordinary Men&#8221;. That book is based on the &#8220;oral testimonies&#8221; gathered by the German government regarding this unit in the mid-60s. The Germans apparently guaranteed anonymity for everyone who talked to their oral historians, to the point of recording literally hundreds of murders, sometimes of the elderly or infants, without prosecuting or otherwise punishing anyone. It&#8217;s hard for us in the United States to imagine, but Germans are racist towards other nationalities in Europe to an extent that makes no sense to us.</p>
<p>So, I would imagine there are dozens, if not hundreds or even thousands of former concentration camp guards who participated in the deaths of millions. We&#8217;re not just talking the six million Jews, by the way: Hitler had murdered hundreds of thousands of other people, and the Germans captured 3.5 million Prisoners of War, and worked/starved almost all of them to death by the end of the war. Demjanjuk was one of those captured; the fact that he volunteered to do something, in order to get out of starving to death in a labor camp is something of a mitigating factor.</p>
<p>The chief difference between Demjanjuk and these other possible defendants is that Demjanjuk isn&#8217;t German. Germany, as a result, can show its zeal in prosecuting Nazi-era war criminals, without actually prosecuting any of its own citizens. Since those citizens, and their relatives, have essentially bought into the &#8220;I was only following orders&#8221; defense for their relatives and countrymen, Demjanjuk is a wonderful surrogate. They can prosecute him *instead* of grandpa, and the international community won&#8217;t know the difference.</p>
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		<title>By: maxschnaunzer</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/germanys-double-standard-in-war-crimes-trials/#comment-381308</link>
		<dc:creator>maxschnaunzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 10:56:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>At least get your terminology straight. Wehrmacht included all branches of the German armed forces, including the SS. If he was army other than SS he was in the Heer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At least get your terminology straight. Wehrmacht included all branches of the German armed forces, including the SS. If he was army other than SS he was in the Heer.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Montbriand</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/germanys-double-standard-in-war-crimes-trials/#comment-381232</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Montbriand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 07:58:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=64739#comment-381232</guid>
		<description>This arguement about &quot;command&quot; and officers is sillyness.  The Germans had trained long and hard to devolve command decisions to the lowest levels, not just platoon leaders, but even squad leaders.  It&#039;s the very reason their military was so tough, they could react faster than any other militaries, due to the devolution of command and decision making.  Sometimes orders do come from higher up, for example Hitler&#039;s orders of no retreat that doomed many units on the eastern front and elsewhere, but they were not always followed and never were they grounded in reality.  Regardless, Scheungraber, as the officer on the spot, would have been the one giving orders.  It appears that Germany wanted to forget about WW2 by May 10, 1945.  Such an defeat doesn&#039;t allow one to forget, but our makeup as humans doesn&#039;t mean we don&#039;t wish we could forget.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This arguement about &#8220;command&#8221; and officers is sillyness.  The Germans had trained long and hard to devolve command decisions to the lowest levels, not just platoon leaders, but even squad leaders.  It&#8217;s the very reason their military was so tough, they could react faster than any other militaries, due to the devolution of command and decision making.  Sometimes orders do come from higher up, for example Hitler&#8217;s orders of no retreat that doomed many units on the eastern front and elsewhere, but they were not always followed and never were they grounded in reality.  Regardless, Scheungraber, as the officer on the spot, would have been the one giving orders.  It appears that Germany wanted to forget about WW2 by May 10, 1945.  Such an defeat doesn&#8217;t allow one to forget, but our makeup as humans doesn&#8217;t mean we don&#8217;t wish we could forget.</p>
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		<title>By: highhatsize</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/germanys-double-standard-in-war-crimes-trials/#comment-381098</link>
		<dc:creator>highhatsize</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 02:04:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I hoped that the article would dwell somewhat on the injustice of Demjanjuk&#039;s trial from an evidentiary point of view rather than just in comparison procedurally with Josef Scheungraber.

Jan Demjanjuk is being tried in Germany because Israel&#039;s prohibition of double jeopardy prevents him from being tried there.  His prosecutors have forum shopped in order to levy charges against him that could not be brought in the nation whose population is composed largely of the very people that he is supposed to have killed.

This is a travesty.  It is a shame that the German constitution does not prohibit double jeopardy as does every other democratic state.  I thought they had rid their judiciary of fascist elements.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hoped that the article would dwell somewhat on the injustice of Demjanjuk&#8217;s trial from an evidentiary point of view rather than just in comparison procedurally with Josef Scheungraber.</p>
<p>Jan Demjanjuk is being tried in Germany because Israel&#8217;s prohibition of double jeopardy prevents him from being tried there.  His prosecutors have forum shopped in order to levy charges against him that could not be brought in the nation whose population is composed largely of the very people that he is supposed to have killed.</p>
<p>This is a travesty.  It is a shame that the German constitution does not prohibit double jeopardy as does every other democratic state.  I thought they had rid their judiciary of fascist elements.</p>
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		<title>By: Germany&#8217;s Double Standard on Ukrainians &#171; Cyber Cossack</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/germanys-double-standard-in-war-crimes-trials/#comment-380707</link>
		<dc:creator>Germany&#8217;s Double Standard on Ukrainians &#171; Cyber Cossack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 17:13:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=64739#comment-380707</guid>
		<description>[...] the Germans do have a history of considering Ukrainians as Untermenschen and the Demjanjuk prosecution/persecution is no [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the Germans do have a history of considering Ukrainians as Untermenschen and the Demjanjuk prosecution/persecution is no [...]</p>
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		<title>By: David Thomson</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/germanys-double-standard-in-war-crimes-trials/#comment-380563</link>
		<dc:creator>David Thomson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 14:27:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=64739#comment-380563</guid>
		<description>&quot;Although this distinction typically escapes American news media&quot;

The gross ignorance of the MSM is beyond belief.  Wehrmacht soldiers represented the &quot;ordinary men&quot; depicted in the work of Christopher Browning. They were often not ideological Nazis---and could even ignore the orders to murder Jews and other so-called inferior people.   John Demjanjuk&#039;s case is disturbing. I am not always a fan of Pat Buchanan.  His seems anti-Semitic at times.  Buchanan&#039;s defense of Demjanjuk, however, does appear reasonable.  Why indeed is there so much emphasis on prosecuting this “smallest of the small fish”?  Is it to convey the impression that the legal systems of Europe are actually doing something while allowing far worst alleged monsters to continue enjoying their freedom?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Although this distinction typically escapes American news media&#8221;</p>
<p>The gross ignorance of the MSM is beyond belief.  Wehrmacht soldiers represented the &#8220;ordinary men&#8221; depicted in the work of Christopher Browning. They were often not ideological Nazis&#8212;and could even ignore the orders to murder Jews and other so-called inferior people.   John Demjanjuk&#8217;s case is disturbing. I am not always a fan of Pat Buchanan.  His seems anti-Semitic at times.  Buchanan&#8217;s defense of Demjanjuk, however, does appear reasonable.  Why indeed is there so much emphasis on prosecuting this “smallest of the small fish”?  Is it to convey the impression that the legal systems of Europe are actually doing something while allowing far worst alleged monsters to continue enjoying their freedom?</p>
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		<title>By: versailles</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/germanys-double-standard-in-war-crimes-trials/#comment-380408</link>
		<dc:creator>versailles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 10:21:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Germany is so full of guilt for its horrendous crimes against humanity that they need a scapegoat in Demjanjuk and a token German conviction to feel good again about themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Germany is so full of guilt for its horrendous crimes against humanity that they need a scapegoat in Demjanjuk and a token German conviction to feel good again about themselves.</p>
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