Germany vs. the Jews — Again
And on the diplomatic front, too, Germany — Holocaust remembrance and education events notwithstanding — has been doing Israel harm. Late last month, the United Nations Security Council voted on a resolution that would have condemned all Israeli building in the West Bank and East Jerusalem as “illegal.” The resolution originated with the Palestinian Authority as part of an effort to eventually force Israel out of the West Bank without a peace agreement ensuring Israel’s security and rights. It was sponsored by Lebanon, a country dominated by Hezbollah — an Iranian-backed terrorist organization also sworn to Israel’s destruction.
Only a U.S. veto — reluctant, and under pressure from Congress — stopped the resolution. Israel, however, was reportedly under the impression that Germany, too, would oppose it, and dismayed when Germany voted in favor. Branding Israeli communities in the West Bank and East Jerusalem as “illegal” is not only false but intensifies the atmosphere of delegitimization surrounding them. It was within that context of delegitimization that earlier this month an Israeli family of five, including three young children, were butchered on the West Bank.
Now Jerusalem Post editor in chief David Horovitz suggests that Germany might still have a way to redeem itself. Next September the Palestinians are expected to go after Israel again in the Security Council, this time with a resolution recognizing a Palestinian state. Even if that resolution were vetoed, Horovitz says, the Palestinians could get it adopted by the General Assembly — in a way that is severely harmful to Israel’s legitimacy, security, and demography.
Under UN regulations, the only way to stop such a resolution dead in its tracks in the Security Council is if at least 7 of its 15 members vote no, abstain, or absent themselves. And
the vital countries with the capacity to sway others are Germany, France, and the UK. Might Germany be prepared to say “no” to unilateral UN establishment of Palestine? Maybe, say some, if Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu can persuade Merkel that he is truly prepared to put flesh on his skeletal talk of a two-state solution.
Another source tells Horovitz that Israel should be working harder to stymie the Palestinian effort, “and that starts with Netanyahu trying to win over Merkel.”
If so, Netanyahu’s work will be cut out for him. Considering that half of Germans view Israel as a Nazi country, that Germany is now the main European state abetting Iran’s aggression, and that Germany already let Israel down on the settlements resolution, one has to be optimistic to think Germany would salvage Israel in the scenario Horovitz depicts.
That scenario is still tentative, though well supported. But what is clear is that, facing a sea of troubles, and despite the weight of the past, Israel can hardly count on Germany as a friend. It’s been behaving more like an enemy.
Branding Israeli communities in the West Bank and East Jerusalem as “illegal” is not only false…”
I admit I am confused in regard to the legal position of Jewish settlements in the West Bank. If Israel does not regard the West Bank as its own territory how are the settlements legal and why would opposing them be lumped in with anti-Semitism? I am particularly interested in how depicting the settlements as ‘illegal’ is false.
Can someone explain to me the moral and legal position on this one? I find Israeli long range aims for the West Bank rather scarce to come by in terms of reading material and the same goals and reasoning by Israel’s supporters scarce as well.
The claim that the settlements are “illegal” was initially promoted by the ICRC – the same Red Cross that for years refused to accept Israel’s Magen Adom because they used the Star of David as their emblem. Despite the fact that the ICRC has no authority for such a judicial finding, that hasn’t stopped folks from latching onto it.
The main reason they are *not* illegal is because the land in question has no established sovereign authority over it. Once a part of the Ottoman Empire, which is no more, authority (not sovereignty) fell to the British Mandate under the authority of the League of Nations in 1922 for the purpose of creating a Jewish homeland – one extending to the Jordan River. That’s still in legal effect. But after the War of Independence in 1948-49, the territory was seized by Transjordan, and renamed the West Bank, but that annexation was not recognized by any country except Britain and Pakistan. In 1988 Jordan abandoned its claims on the territory. So sovereignty remains disputed. But as the international legal authority Schwebel has argued, Israel has *more* claim to the territory than any other party. That includes the Palestinians, not even mentioned in UNSC 242.
As to the settlements themselves, almost all are situated either on ownerless state land (originally Ottoman, ultimately falling under Israeli authority) or Jewish owned legally acquired from their Arab owners. Itamar, for example – site of the most recent atrocity – is on Jewish-owned land.
According to the Geneva Conventions, when Israel allows settlement in the “occupied” West Bank, it constitute a war crime. Israel claims that the area is not occupied but “disputed”, and therefore the Conventions do not apply. The UN considers the territory as “occupied”, making all Israeli settlements illegal.
It’s a matter of who blinks first. The Palestinians will not negotiate peace as long as there are Israeli settlements in the West Bank. The Israelis will not remove the settlements until there is a peace treaty.
The below website at Wikipedia gives a good synopsis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories
“It’s a matter of who blinks first. The Palestinians will not negotiate peace as long as there are Israeli settlements in the West Bank.”
Yawn…. Wrong.
Anyway their will never be “peace” as long as Western money and enablers incentivize Palestinian statelessness.
Alan Dershowitz http://info.jpost.com/C004/QandA/qa.dershowitz.html: My opposition to the settlements deep in the West Bank and in Gaza is not based on the law. Indeed I have argued that Jews should have the right to live anywhere in the West Bank and in Gaza, as they should anywhere in the world. I believe, however, that in the interest of peace and the two state solution, the Jews who live in these settlements should be relocated either within the Green Line or within the area that is likely to become the final borders of Israel. The world should recognize, however, that this is in the nature of a compromise and that the Jewish settlers are being asked to surrender their legal rights in the interests of peace.
He also recently wrote an Op Ed somewhere (can’t remember where…WSJ or NYTimes) where he clearly lays out the legal argument.
do chinese or eskimos or americans have the right to live ANYWHERE in the world? the answer is clearly no, and so my followup question is why should jews be accorded any greater right?
people who wants jews to colonize the west bank and gaza are insane anti-zionists in my book. they are paving the way for a one-state solution in a few decades, a states in which jews may be economically dominant, but in which they will be a hated minority group as well.
Adolf, is that you again?
Mark, the Jews are not colonizers, the land belongs to them. There was never any such sovereign country as palestine, therefore the idea that Jews are “colonists” and “occupiers” of some other nation is absurd, a myth. Indeed why should Jews be treated differently than anyone else. Yet the Jewish nation, unlike any other, is being denied the right to their own land. I can think of a number of other people that have far greater claims to statehood than the so-called “palestinians”. The Kurds come to mind.
were colonial Americans not “colonizers” then, since the American Indians never bothered to set up states?
just about everyone has ancestors in a tribe of “colonizers.” Nothing necessarily wrong with that, my problem is with people who feel that some god or another gave them title to a particular piece of land.
i agree with you that the kurds deserve a state. don’t forget the yezidis too. any group that wants a state and has the might to secure it inalienably deserves a state. if securing such a state involves oppressing or removing members of other groups, then those other groups have an inalienable right to resist.
When the League of Nations folded and the UN started, a main connection was that all League resolutions would be continued under the UN, until the UN repealed them. The League of Nations’ Palestine Mandate was continued and never repealed. It called for Jews to settle in all of Palestine. In 1948 (Trans)Jordan invaded and conquered the eastern area of the Palestine Mandate, the area called Judea and Samaria including the eastern portion of Jerusalem, kiled or evicted every Jew, incorperated the area, and renamed it the “West Bank”. In 1949, Israel and Jordan reached a truce agreement that stipulated that these borders (the “Green Line”) were only temporary. In 1967, during the Egyptian war with Israel, Jordan started shelling the Israel side of the Green Line. Israel retaliated, and recovered Judea and Samaria including the eastern portion of Jerusalem. Under the continuing League resolution, Jews were now free to re-settle in these areas. The UN Security Council resolution 242 called for peace agreements leading to defensible final borders. Israel and Egypt made a peace agreement, under which Israel ceded the Sinai region (to be demilitarized)to Egypt. In the meanwhile, Jordan ceded its residual rights in Judea and Samaria to the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO). Israel and Jordan reached a Peace agreement that, while it slightly realigned other borders, did not affect Judea and Samaria. The PLO charter calls for the destruction of Israel. The PLO has refused many peace offers from Israel. It signed the Oslo accords which called for it to rescind from its charter the clauses which stated that its purpose was for it to destroy Israel. But, it has never in fact cancelled those clauses.
Unfortunately, even here on Pajamas Media, no one has given you a clear explanation. So I will.
UN Resolution 242, the principle resolution concerning the disposition of the West Bank, defines these territories as “disputed.” The framers of the resolution, Eugene Rostow, Arthur Goldberg, Lord Caradon, Baron George Brown.. all clearly stated that Jews had the same right to live in these territories as they do to live in Tel Aviv. For the past 44 years there has been a great effort by the Arabs and their sympathizers to distort or bury Resolution 242. But it is still on the books. Israel made an enormous strategic error by defacto accepting the claim that the West Bank is rightfully Arab territory and not something who status should be negotiated. The territory has never been under the legitimate rule of an Arab government. Jordan’s occupation from 1948-1967 was not even recognized by other Arab states.
Steve,
Here’s a link to two
Articles by Eugene W. Rostow
Historical Approach to the Issue of Legality of Jewish Settlement Activity in The New Republic of April 23, 1990 and
Are the settlements legal? Resolved in The New Republic, October 21, 1991.
Watch this video of Dr Jacques P Gauthier on the legality of Jewish claims and the facts, hidden by media reporting and political shenanigans, that he brings to light.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55GR84ITI6w
he mentions all the legal rights the international community granted and which have not been abrogated.
As to settlements UN Resolution 242 needs to be read to realise that they are not illegal, something those two lawyer types in the “Whitehouse Administration” don’t seem to understand.
But then of course they cannot seem to understand the Constitution and dispense with it when it pleases..
Thank you everyone. I always wondered why Israel didn’t just claim it all but then they’d have to make all the Arabs citizens. By slowly building only close to the line in the West, they are only taking what they can control and make strategic sense out of.
Hard to blame them considering the intransigence of the Palestinian Arabs all these years. I guess it comes down to private land as opposed to sovereign land, just as happened during the Mandate.
The muslims who are always going on about waiting centuries to accomplish their aims probably should’ve been a little quieter about it since this now working against them.
Without a state in the West Bank that would be friendly instead of making kids shows about evil Jews and blowing people up, there is no guarantee that the vulnerable middle of Israel wouldn’t have a threat to cut it in half again as in 1967. Robert E. Lee after the fall of Richmond should’ve been the guide for the Palestinian Arabs to follow rather than an idiot like Arafat who is probably the single greatest enemy the Palestinian Arabs have ever had.
I agree that this should be looked at from a larger point of view than just legal niceties from the League of Nations, United Nations or Mandatory Palestine, none of which had any real legal jurisdiction in the first place. To the winner go the spoils and to a loser who won’t say ‘uncle’ goes nothing. It’d be different if the Palestinian Arabs had gone with the rule of international law in the first place but they shouldn’t be able to go that way now only because the military option has failed them.
The sudden interest on the part of the Palestinian Arabs in international law is phony. They should’ve learned to live in peace in the first place instead of feeling that land belongs to religion. In the end, land belongs to those who can take it and hold it once 2 sides go to war.
The fact that Islam believes the middle east belongs to them as some kind of a holy enclave or wafq that applies to any land they ever seize is why everyone else who is not a muslim has done poorly in those areas.
Muslims do not play well with others and have trouble living in places with multiple views on worship and equal rights. Considering the vast arrogance of Islam and the way some in America agitate and connive, I have to admit that I cringe every time I hear about mosques in Memphis. Muslim leadership seems to think the whole world belongs to them and when it comes to America it’s not much of an exaggeration to suggest that Islam comes down squarely on the divine right of kings rather than the colonial American decision regarding this.
A religion that feels it can only fully express itself when only it controls all the toys is not a very mature one. Islam is still struggling with pre-Enlightenment issues and has yet to make any connection between its own failure on the world stage and its adherence to the idea of religion in government, even with the issue clearly stated and on the table in the West for a long, long time.
I don’t think muslims should be allowed into America. I don’t see how they can on the one hand argue that Jews had no right to immigrate into Mandatory Palestine and then bitch and moan about every little thing once they’re in America; to me muslims are the ultimate opportunists and don’t make good Americans – if that were not true, they wouldn’t be coming here in the first place. We’ve had our revolutions, civil war and social upheavals, let Islam stay home and figure their own shit out. Number one on the list should be to stop having 6 kids to a family while they can still at least pretend to actually be feeding themselves without outside help.
James,
I think you just did a wonderful job of assimilating all the information that was typed in response to your question, perhaps reading a couple of articles, and then crafting a beautifully written, and spot-on analysis of the situation!
Bravo Sir! Well done!
And for that good work, I’ll pass on our tribe’s little secret to you for use during this Passover: splash a little, well strictly speaking lambs blood, but water soluble red paint should do fine, just above your door. Then nothing bad will happen to you (since G-d will… Pass over your house) and you’ll be around for the entire rest of the year to further write such nice posts!
– FF
P.S. I know I know: if life were only that simple…
Don’t worry, killer angels are scared of me for some reason – might be my personality.
So I give a beautiful set up line like muslims believe the middle east belongs to them and today in the Jerusalem Post they quote Ahmed Tibi as saying things like: “Our skin is the same color of the earth; This land here speaks Arabic.”
Funny how a culture that has no understanding of a property deed slavishly adheres to any U.N. resolution that favors them. Well, some of that colorful, talking dirt is under new management which happens from time to time in the real world. The problem is that you have to actually have some kind of connection to the real world to understand that – it’s called pragmatism and is entirely lacking within Islamic culture – that is why they live in a dream world, they stubbornly prefer it over reality.
The real difference here is that Jews who were invited out of a number of countries across North Africa and the middle east were taken in by their own, while the muslims who act so pissed off about the Palestinian Arabs would not take them in.
Even in Gaza they have so-called refugee camps that aren’t camps according to my understanding of the English language and the people in these ‘camps’ aren’t refugees. It’s just a stupid mindset that holds on to what is gone, gone, gone. At this point it just sounds like a con game to make money which the corrupt leaders grift off; why would any leader making dough from misery want a Palestinian State when they might be left out of the money train? Believe me I understand an attachment to a land but if the Arabs are going to have as long a memory about that land as Jewish folks did then I can see this is going to take a few thousand years to sort out. In that sense, the future is the past and that past is war.
‘Refugee camps’ in other muslim countries exist because they won’t take their ‘brothers’ in because in truth they don’t care about them; so much for the idea of a ‘caliphate’.
The whole thing about the ‘Nakba’ and the camps and the holding on to the past in such a fashion is really disturbing and sad. Mass exchanges of populations have taken place in the same time frame and every one has moved on but these hapless people. Having this type of mindset in America makes me sick – it really, really does.
The Almighty who created the world gave a small portion of it to the Jews as an everlasting covenant. Legal descriptions that seek to justify Divine decree by overlaying human considerations are, whether in favor or opposed, are subservient to this fact. Those that support Jewish rights will be be Blessed those that do not will be cursed.
http://www.mofa.go.jp/announce/announce/2011/2/0210_02.html
On the day the earthquake and tsunami hit Japan the Psalm of the day was as follows-
” A psalm by David. Render to the Lord, children of the mighty, render to the Lord honor and strength. 2. Render to the Lord the honor due to His Name; bow down to the Lord in resplendent holiness. 3. The voice of the Lord is over the waters, the God of glory thunders; the Lord is over mighty waters. 4. The voice of the Lord resounds with might; the voice of the Lord resounds with majesty. 5. The voice of the Lord breaks cedars; the Lord shatters the cedars of Lebanon. 6. He makes them leap like a calf, Lebanon and Sirion like a young wild ox. 7. The voice of the Lord strikes flames of fire. 8. The voice of the Lord makes the desert tremble; the Lord causes the desert of Kadesh to tremble. 9. The voice of the Lord causes the does to calve, and strips the forests bare; and in His Sanctuary all proclaim His glory. 10. The Lord sat [as King] at the Flood; the Lord will sit as King forever. 11. The Lord will give strength to His people; the Lord will bless His people with peace.”
The Germans have committed unspeakable crimes. They were aided and abetted by much of Europe. We are in a crucial period of time. I only hope that eyes are opened soon.
Repentance, prayer and charity are the answers.
Fear of G-d is the beginning of Wisdom.
As someone who went to Catholic school with crazy nuns dressed up like penguins, I found that fearing God was not the beginning of wisdom but of fear.
Unless you think of the wisdom part as consisting of rejecting the whole deal, growing my hair long and smoking weed until it came out of my ears.
Okay, that may have not been wisdom exactly but it was for sure better than allowing my natural instincts as a human being to be subverted in favor of the rather specific dogmatic imperatives of some alien being which by some strange coincidence was always just out of reach of my peripheral vision.
Mother Earth, now that I can deal with, but I draw the line at eternal wafq’s or everlasting covenants, especially when they claim the same ground; that would seem to be proof that someone is goofy or is there a theological way out of that bag?
Oddly, I was always more scared of H.P. Lovecraft stories about the Elder Gods and stuff as a teenager than I was of hell although hell is pretty scary if you think about it enough. I guess if they’d had Catholic books that were only about the demons and devils and stuff I might have gone to church without being forced to just for insurance if nothing else. I think that’s kinda the way it works anyway.
I never actually felt that cleaned up after saying 10 Hail Mary’s and 10 Our Father’s after confessing to a guy in a booth that I said ‘f–k’ that week or wished that my 5th grade teacher would mysteriously never show up again.
Those priests should’ve had someone like H.P. Lovecraft write the Catechism manuals – I never would’ve cursed or disobeyed my mother again if I thought some shambling thing with frog eyes out of the dark might start scratching at my door at night.
And if you read stuff about Mohammed flying around to the moon and stuff, it ain’t exactly Lord Dunsany or Clark Ashton Smith. These people need some writers. Yeah I know, they’ve captured the imagination of a large part of the world but just between you and me, using the word ‘imagination’ with some of these folks is kinda stretching it and some of the stuff they do like cutting off heads and mutilating their little girls kinda reminds me of Lovecraft’s frog people if you know what I mean. I mean, if they’re the good guys, then what do the bad people do? When they think of going to heaven or whatever do they just become regular folks? Hell, they could renounce Islam and move to Iowa and do that without blowin’ shit up and yellin’ all the time. I think the problem is that there’s nothing really scary for muslims that trumps their real life.
I think if you put some 12 yr. old muslim kid all alone up in a belfry at midnight and had him watch Robert Wise’s “The Haunting” that he might feel somewhat more secure in the belfry than in real life.
I really feel sorry for people who claim that the Christian religion is just something used to control people, those who insist humans evolved from apes(most of us do act like them), those who tell me we have over 6 billion accidents walking planet Earth,26,00 species with no apparent reason for being here. Earth just perfectly placed from the sun, magnetic pull from the gas giants, moon tilted at the perfect angle. So many ACCIDENTS that humans need for life here to be plausible. Stop thinking about religion and start asking yourself if all this happened via nothing or maybe someone had a master plan.
“Mother Earth, now that I can deal with.”
Get it?
That explains all things: cracks in the sidewalks, the plane of the ecliptic, cold sores, Earth traveling in a straight line through curved space, the luck of the Irish, Mayan temples, the morphology of volcanoes, the grating sound Parrot fish make when you’re underwater and 9 billion™ other names for god.
Why did Abraham agree to sacrifice Isaac when the Almighty commanded him to do so? Fear of G-d. Yet what could be more painful for a normal human being than murdering their own child? Especially a person of Abrahams standing who was renowned for his kindness?
I will not answer the question for you. I only suggest that the flaws inherent in one religion do not pertain to all. And that only Judaism had hundreds of thousands of people who had direct contact with The Almighty. And that since that contact the Jews have been writing the story of that encounter in a fashion so exact that if even a comma was misplaced the entire work had to be started over. And that every line of that encounter has proven itself to be true over a period or more than three thousand five hundred years.
Do you think the second, third and fourth generations after that encounter did not ask their mothers, fathers, grandmothers, grandfathers, great grandmothers and great grand fathers, about their encounter? That they. offspring of the witnesses to The Divine, would have assumed the burdens of Judaism if they did not believe?
There is no religion like Judaism. While others draw their validity from us, we have nothing of their flaws.
It is not G-ds job to love us. He makes no promises to do so. It is our job to Love G-d. And when one loves one fears the loss of the beloved.
Yeah, I know, I read all that stuff when I was a kid. God tested Abraham which comes off as an insensitive practical joke where he basically says, “Just kiddin’. Not very nice and Abraham was not nice for being willing to stick a shiv in his kid for a voice in a cloud.
His kid probably never trusted him again and I wouldn’t have been surprised if he’d started his own religion centered around the fact that parents are weird and capricious and should probably lay off the grape.
So you’re saying Jews were abducted by aliens and educated like those monolith things in “2001…”? They must’ve had a fleet of flying saucers to service hundreds of thousands.
My ma, if I’d've asked her about divine encounters she would’ve smacked me and told me to take out the garbage. Nice goin’ with the continuity and all though.
Me, I don’t even know who the hell my people were only 100 years ago in Poland. So, I decided to get with it and adopt America and go with a clean slate.
I always liked the future; that’s why I read science fiction when I was a kid instead of dreary tales about ancient feuds and divine intervention and fun religions that couldn’t have sex and put people to the rack if they couldn’t see Jesus sittin’ in a chair across the room, etc., etc.
I did like that story about that guy who came back from the dead but he didn’t terrorize anyone like The Creature from the Black Lagoon unless you count putting people to the rack cuz they couldn’t see Jesus sittin’ in a chair across the room.
Religion is a no-fun zone and the collateral damage across the centuries has been and continues to be staggering. The problem seems to be that the more ‘others’ you project the more reasons you have for killing, disenfranchising, enslaving them, etc., etc.
I can at least understand why someone stabs a guy in an alley for a gold watch and some cash but people who blow up people based on hallucinations are psychopaths rather than common murderers. No one names town squares after a guy who murders someone in an alley for a gold watch and some cash. We got lots of statues and plaques for psychopaths.
Unfortunately James May you continue to ridicule what you do not understand. What you studied was a false translation of the original. The people who educated you believed in the false translation and that is why it made no sense. And while you may not be ale to trace your lineage more than 100 years,others do not have that problem.
Your understanding of the original Bible is inferior to that of the average 10 year old Yeshivah student. You have a lot to learn but no one can educate a person who is unwilling to learn.
Mr. Yakov you have misunderstood my purposeful desire for ignorance in these matters since all I have learned is this: if knowing my lineage contributes to ancient feuds going back centuries, then color me an orphan – an American one.
We have made for ourselves a clean slate, a new way of thinking, one that replaced oom pah pah bands with rock and roll.
The more Americans look to the old world and the old ways the bigger losers we are. There’s a theological dogmatist under every rock and they all say they’re right and that I’m ignorant.
If I want to talk to God I’ll stand barefoot in the grass and look at the sky. That all the story I need and it’s a lot; I don’t need to dress it up with superheroes and thunderbolts.
U know how to research ..yes? Do some now…and get ur sources world wide…including Arab publications. Make ur own decision. But there UN resolutions dividing Palestine. The Israeli communities out side their UN mandated partition are entirely illegal.
Ridiculous. When, in the history of mankind, has the winner of a war foisted on them ever had to give up war-booty. If that is the case then why is no one willing to force the arabs to give back all the land they’ve stolen over the years? I’m sure the Persians would love to have Iran (Persia) back. And the Coptic Christians (true Egyptians) would love to kick the arabs out of Egypt!
Just send the arabs back to their home lands in Jordan. This idiotic attempt by arabs to confiscate every inch of the Middle East has GOT to stop!
Germany has never redeemed itself, despite their Holocaust programs, and all their attendant (mostly phony)mea culpas.
On a state level its leadership pays lip service to its dastardly past, and behind the scenes execute tremendous business ties with the modern day Hitler regime.What part of anti-semitic is NOT clear under this context?
Moreover, in what TANGIBLE way are they our friends?The fact of the matter is that a majority of its citizens- following their leaders- would like to finish what their ancestors started. In no small measure this would finally relieve them of their guilt, as the eyesore of Israel would be gone, no longer serving as a reminder to their genocide.As to the rest of the Jews, once Israel is gone they will be much easier prey.
It is what it is and we DARE not paper it over.
And yet, cultural historians in the U.S. are citing Germany as a country that has “worked through” its antisemitic past, using the Germans as an example to the U.S. who still have not conducted a moral reckoning regarding slavery. These black nationalists and their very prominent academic allies want reparations. See http://clarespark.com/2011/01/25/american-slavery-vs-nazi-genocide/.
You say “Germany has never redeemed itself”.
What more do you think Germany must do?
Also, how common is this belief among your fellow Israelis?
Yeah, so let’s get this straight: recalcitrant Nazis think Israeli’s are Nazis and Israelis think Germans are still Nazis.
Mandatory Palestine is an eternal wafq and also divinely conferred but wafq’a are flawed cuz their alien being doesn’t really exist or at least is less powerful.
Playing baseball without an umpire is extremely dangerous and could get out of hand. Please work this out amongst yourselves as when I am standing on shining hills looking at shining sees the noise disturbs my concentration.
There is no redemption for cold blood murder.
sh-Okey dokey.So, it is your concerted opinion that memorials and educational programs is ‘enough’ penance for murdering ! half of my people?How magnanimous….
Pray tell, IF this generation is ‘cured’ of their anti-semitism, then how exactly are 47% still imbibing the same hatred?
Get a clue.By the bye, this time we CAN & WILL defend ourselves from outside forces, wherever they originate and whoever aids the enemy.Our stockpiles of WMD’s says-yes we can!!
Did you happen to notice at the top here -”Ads by Google” – is a link to “Filthy Jews?” What the hell is that???
That’s probably the new “net neutrality” you’ve been hearing about from Obama.
Germany has given all possibilities to mullahs in Iran to continue repression at home and terrorism abroad. Anti-Semitism is much less in Germany (at least for the time being) than in Norway, Finland, Sweden and the UK. The Left is a little shy to show its true nature of anti-Semitism in Germany because of Germany’s past; but they have no problem, in countries like Norway and Sweden, to ally and march with Hamas, Hezbollah and all other Islamonazis and wish the worst for the USA and Israel. These are not a few fringe lefties but party leaders, ministers (socialists, communists, greens), trade unionists together with foolish and idiot archbishops.
I see that Norway’s socialist party is requesting that the West bomb Israel if it attacks Hamas.
Therefore, the only way it can be palatable to bomb Libya for these morally deranged people is if Israel can be bombed too.
Cynic,
The socialist party’s leader is a woman and Arabs have a solid record of raping Norwegian women. We may hear one day that this deranged lefty Norwegian blonde has been added to the list of above-mentioned women. Norwegians surrendered to Nazis without a fight. Israel is 100 times stronger than Norway.
And the vital countries with the capacity to sway others are Germany, France, and the UK. Might Germany be prepared to say “no” to unilateral UN establishment of Palestine?
And risk terrorist attacks? Not bloody likely.
“47.7 percent of Germans saying that “Israel is conducting a war of extermination against the Palestinians.”
This is based on years and years of propaganda from European multicultural fanatics in the European media who have bought into the junk the Palestinians have been dishing out for them. Yet you never seem to hear about the Palestinian rockets slamming into Isreal and I’m sure the European media didn’t mention anything about that Jewish family that was slaughtered recently by Palestinian terrorists. Who knows, maybe Germany never really got over its anti-semitism after World War II. Remember, all of Germany is NOT made up of hip young people from Berlin or Hamburg. Many of them are very conservative people from Bavaria and, espcially, old East Germany where Jews were never really accepted, let alone liked.
The only thing we can do is stand by Israel and help protect her from the onslaught that’s about to come soon from the radical Islamists in Egypt, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas, and, especially, Iran. But I doubt Obama and anybody at the White House feels the same way.
The help we will need is standing by us when we are forced to lob tactical nukes at various target points to survive the Islamic onslaught.
Statements like this are the reason why Iran is frantically trying to build its own nuclear program.
As a neutral observer, I say let them do it.
When you Israelis know that the other side will fight back, you won’t be so eager to start a worldwide nuclear holocaust.
A nuclear-armed Iran is probably the best hope for peace in the Middle East.
That is utter nonsense and I’m not even going to bother explaining to you why. So please, just go on believing it, by all means… In fact, tell us more of your “theories” regarding the Middle East and that Jewish Country out there whatever they call it.
Yeah, ya probably want to ix-nay with the obbing-lay.
“Remember, all of Germany is NOT made up of hip young people from Berlin and Hamburg. Many of them are very conservative people from Bavaria and especially, old East Germany”. Hitler was not really a conservative. He destroyed all the old traditions in Germany(the German Länder, Trade Unions, parties, Vereine). We in Baden-Württ. have had a conservative government for 58 years. Since last Sunday we have a coalition of Greens and SPD (Social Democrats). This coalition has only one vote more than the CDU, but for Merkel and Westerwelle (the FDP only got approx. 5 per cent) it is a disaster. Baden-Württemberg has been the only Land which has been a net-payer since 1949. At present, only 3 countries (BW, Bavaria and Hesse) pay for the rest. The young people in Berlin(Hamburg is better off)can only be hip because less hip but very successful people pay for them. And former East Germany is an example that pressure does not make people free and independent in their thoughts. With pressure and blame one only gets a result nobody wants. By the way, in our small towns, we are far more successful in integrating people than Berlin is.
I’m living in the North-Rhine/Westphalia for 20 years now. I’m working in the IT-industry since 1996. Actually I was everywhere in Germany. I am Jewish. At work nobody knows it, because each time that I’m telling it to someone, there’s mobbing thereafter. Subsequently, then I must change the work. If you show me just only one guy with a Kippa walking on the street, I give you 100 Euros immediately on the hand. And I feel insulted by your statement deeply.
“Considering that half of Germans view Israel as a Nazi country…”.
Unsubstantiated. Crackpot. Rubbish.
Given that ‘States do not have friends or enemies-only interests’,Germany is little different from other European nations in a continent where traditionally anti-Semitism has been the watchword. Leopards don’t change their spots and these particular one are very mucky and very deep. Thank God for the United States also Canada and Australia where there is no such ‘baggage’and stand by the only bastion of Western democracy in the region.
The KRAUTS of today would do today what their NAZI parents did yesterday believe me I lived there for 8 YEARS
Insults are no arguments, my not so dear “pragmatist”.
It seems that Pajamas Media removed my reply to you. Why? What is wrong with “insults are no arguments”?(apart from the wording)? Well, the words
” my not so dear pragmatist” may be a matter of discussion, but I feel very insulted by you. Where did you live during the 8 years you have been in Germany? How can you recognize a Nazi? I just wonder.
Calm down Marianne,
As you see, it got there… sometimes, people take breaks, go to the bathroom, etc — then they get back to their job of editing comments. Take a breath or two and drink some fine French wine!
I would like to place my comment under the right thread.
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/germany-vs-the-jews-again/#comment-951356
Go and hang yourself,racist p_g.
It would seem the Third Reich is still very much alive!
@ James May
Your question needs a little history lesson. 1900s – the land in question (“West Bank” or ‘Yehuda v’ Shomron’) was controlled by the Ottoman Trukish empire. They lost the land to the British Empire, who dubbed the land in question the “Palestinian Mandate” (named that way b/c the Romans when they originally counquered the land called it Palistina)- an area of land that included current day Jordan. Britian (and France) had control of many of the arabian countries. After WW2, the Brits (and French) divy up the land to the different countries present today – lop off Jordan from the Mandate, and leave the borders of the remaining land as the Mediterannian Sea to the Jordan river as stateless.
The UN then has the original partition plan to divide the remaining land between the Jews and the arabs. Jews would get the coast, and some desert, Arabs get everything else, and Jerusalem would be international. This reflected where the populations were living at the time. The vote passed the UN, and Israel declared itself as a state (on the territory they were given in the UN plan). Surrounding Arab states attack (War of independence – 1948), Israel survives/wins. The armistice line is the green line – (the West Bank).
OK — so now what is the story with the West Bank at this point? Britan seceeded control, Israel didn’t take control. It is at this point stateless. Great – so Jordan comes in, and annexes the West Bank. The move is not recognized by the international community, but some countries recognize the annexation. So either the land is stateless according to those who don’t recognize the annexation, or Jordanian to those that do. It is at this point in time that it is dubbed the ‘West Bank’, ie West Bank of the Jordan River – of Jordanian territory.
In 1967, the 6 day war brought the West Bank under Israeli control, but Israel did not annex the territory, as annexing would make everybody living there automatic citizens, amongst other reasons as well. Additionally the 6 day war was a DEFENSIVE war since there were acts of war committed against Israel (closing the straight of hormuz for instance), and this adds to the int’l law (Israel would get to keep this new territory). Enter UN and makes some post war security council resolutions (that Israel needs to return territory captured in the war). Israel fulfills this obligation eventually by giving Sinai to Egypt. (FYI there is a whole back and forth if the entire territory captured needed to be returned based on the translation language – ‘the territories captured’ vs ‘territories captured’.
So – either the land is captured by Israel from Jordan, and is under its (Israel) control, or the land was captured by Israel was stateless and is now under Israel control. The current folks who call themselves palistian arabs now make claim to the ‘west bank’, putting this land now under dispute, which would make it disputed territories, and not illegally occupied. Those who read the resolution as stating ‘must return the territories captured’ (all territories) will use that to claim Israel is illegally occupying the west bank.
A country is allowed to build in their own terroritory, and a country also needs room for population growth. If the territory is disputed, then there is no issue to build, and a settlement is not illegal, rather completely legal.
I assume Israel’s goal is to have enough towns and communties for its growth and people. From a religous (jewish) perspective, that land was promised to the Jewish people by G-d and it is religous obligation to live throughout the land that was once the Jewish Commonwealth of Israel in the past.
One thing to note is Israel’s detractors tend to lie. IE calling Israel apartheid state, or that genocide or massacres are taking place. Fact checking is the best solution.
Hope your question is answered.
Good synopsis. Didn’t see it earlier when I wrote my own reply to Mr. May’s question. One correction though. Having looked into this in some detail, I could only find one country (Britain) that recognized Jordan’s annexation. Jordan, at the time, was a dependency of Britain, so that is not a surprise. Even the other Arab states did not recognize the Jordanian annexation.
As I stated earlier, Israel has much to blame for accepting the campaign to revise history and declare the West Bank to be Arab territory. I now think they should have insisted wherever possible on referring to it by its longstanding name of Judea and Samaria rather than the phony name, the West Bank which came into vogue only after Jordan siezed it. How few people even realize that it is the heartland of ancient Israel, whereas many of the coastal Israeli cities were actually built on ancient Philistine settlements.
“In 1967, the 6 day war brought the West Bank under Israeli control, but Israel did not annex the territory, as annexing would make everybody living there automatic citizens, amongst other reasons as well.”
No, that was the ONLY reason they didn’t annex the land.
“From a religous (jewish) perspective, that land was promised to the Jewish people by G-d and it is religous obligation to live throughout the land that was once the Jewish Commonwealth of Israel in the past.”
Why should anyone who isn’t a religious Jew care about this one whit? Why should on group’s religious claims be given an ounce of consideration in determining the title to a piece of land?
What is your alternative to a two state solution?
In 1967 Israel should have either:
1. Kicked all the Arabs out of Palestine – like the Soviets did to the Germans in Prussia in 1945. Apparently the Germans are okay with this solution since I don’t hear them whining about their occupied territories.
2. After thoroughly beating them in a war, forced Egypt to annex the Gaza Strip and Jordan to retain control of the West Bank minus Jerusalem and a security buffer zone.
The current arrangement is ridiculous. After the next war (when the Muslim Brotherhood takes over Syria and Egypt) look for one of these solutions to get implemented.
” What is your alternative to a two state solution? ”
Why just two? After all the muslims of palestine already have three, Jordan, the West Bak and Gaza. Three territories that any normal people could easily have turned into paradises. Of course when you ask barbarians to act like civilized human beings you are bound to be disappointed.
I’m surprised Mr. Hornik failed to mention a recent phone call between Merkel and Netanyahu in which the former bellowed that Israel “hadn’t done a single thing” to advance the peace process – this despite Bibi’s Bar Ilan speech, extended building freeze (continued de facto today in most settlements), the removal of checkpoints, and much more. Meanwhile, the Palestinians have worked aggressively to work *around* the peace process, to obtain their state on a silver platter without conceding anything to Israel. This tells me that Merkel is no longer an ally, and that the “special obligation” Germany feels toward Israel is almost dead.
Another telling incident: At a recent rally in Germany – typically pro-Palestine and anti-Israel – two individuals nearby showed their counter-sentiments by holding up Israeli flags. The police seized those Israeli flags and took the individuals in for questioning.
Raymond–I didn’t mention that because it was initially reported in Haaretz. Yes, it could be true, but it’s not the most reliable source, esp. on something that’s accusatory to Israel about “peace,” as Merkel reportedly was.
James May: ” I am particularly interested in how depicting the settlements as ‘illegal’ is false.”
Sure.
There is no law making them illegal.
Geneva Conventions prohibit forced population transfers in occupied territory. However the Palestinians have not been forced out and the ‘settlers’ were not forced in. There is no law prohibiting building or living in occupied land.
Article 49 “Art. 49. Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.
Nevertheless, the Occupying Power may undertake total or partial evacuation of a given area if the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand. Such evacuations may not involve the displacement of protected persons outside the bounds of the occupied territory except when for material reasons it is impossible to avoid such displacement. Persons thus evacuated shall be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased.”
Hostilities have clearly not ceased.
In the case of East Jerusalem it was annexed by Israel. Annexation is not illegal and it becomes your territory, if you can keep it.
One plan floated if Palestinians declare a state is for Israel to annex the major settlement blocks. Of course this will not be accepted and it would leave the Palestinians in a worse situation than if they had negotiated. Once the territory is no longer occupied Israel would have no responsibilities to the Palestinians for cooperation on trade, transportation, water and power. West bank economy would collapse. A negotiated settlement could address all of that.
The German people are cowards and always have been. Deep within their psyche is an arrogance and a disrespect for others that should be feared by all. It led to atrocities during both world wars wherever their military occupied. It takes no courage to massacre men, woman and children of all ages by whatever murderous means are available or most efficient. I don’t trust the Germans. They are very similar to the Russians in nature. They should stay out of the affairs of man.
I wish I could agree. The truth is uglier.
They aren’t cowards. The worst of the worst – the SS Totenkopf (Death’s Head) Division was formed from concentration camps guard units. We would love to think they were cowardly bullies who could not face real combat. The Division fought on both fronts during WWII – including a long winter near Moscow – and performed magnificently.
The truth is that Germans aren’t cowards, just very capable, very disciplined followers. It will be interesting to see who they follow when the Caliphate comes to Europe.
Unfortunately, what you say has much truth. Although, those who did the bulk of the murdering were not one and the same as those sent to frontline duty.
Also, I don’t totally agree with your assessment of the SS divisions. post-war, alot of people of the Germanophile persuasion make a big deal about the SS prowess. But in fact, German military successes almost entirely can be attributed to the regular army and its professional officer corps. The SS role expanded greatly in the last 2-3 years of the war. I read accounts of some of its officers, who came up through the Nazi party, not through the regular army and lacked the professional skills. Its fanaticism meant it fought fiercely, especially in defensive battles, but less effectively on the offensive, as evidenced by the failure of unimaginative operations, like in Hungary in March 1945 and in the Ardennes in Dec. 1944, both spearheaded by SS formations and fairly rapidly halted and then driven back by effective allied defenses.
I wasn’t arguing that the Totenkopf was better than regular Waffen SS units (they weren’t) – or that the Waffen SS was universally better than the Wehrmacht units.
But the Totenkopf’s performance in horrible conditions while massively outnumbered puts to rest the comfortable myth that they were cowardly bullies.
“Israel is conducting a war of extermination against the Palestinians.”
Over 60 years and there are more Palestinians than ever.
I guess they are just not as good at it as the Germans.
Thus shall it be fulfilled the words the Lord spoke to Ezekiel that Gog, the ruler of Magog, Rosh, Meshech and Tubal (together making modern Russia) shall come against Israel alongside many allies, among them Beth-Togammerah (modern Germany).
German hatred towards Jews did not suddenly appear with the Nazis and it did not suddenly disappear with their fall. But at this point it is probably no different than the general sentiment within numerous European states, like Norway, Austria (historically, the worst of all), Hungary …etc…
Past behavior predicts the future. The Germans will accomodate as much as possible to the positions of the Arab states and Iran for their own economic gain, while avoiding conflict with the United States’ position. One would think the Israelis understand this, but then again people are susceptible to delusion.
Most Germans, like most Europeans, are completely indifferent to Israel’s survival.
You nailed it – and this phenomenon is acquiring weight in the US too –
As far as South america and the rest of the world… if the removal of a “Hitler” named cofee house in India is a success, the best selling of Mein Kampf there pulverises this as cultural war item -
And this is a huge problem, since, paradoxically, Israel’s and the Jewish world’s tool of survival is actually its Western heritage and history –
In India, Japan and China there is no knowledge of Hebrew heritage and no interest for it -
And in Europe this relationship is diminishing day-by-day -
Nothing has changed since the Holocaust.
The intensity of Jew hate is frightening. Germany/US/EU/UK/UN seek to have hundreds of thousands of Jews viciously ethnically cleansed from the Biblical Jewish homeland of Judea and Samaria-land that is absolutely vital to Israel’s defense. Without this militarily strategic high ground, Israel CANNOT defend herself.
It was also unacceptable to G-D hater Hitler and his vile Nazis that Jews lived in Europe.
Under no circumstances must one inch of Jewish Holy Land be surrendered to the bloodthirsty Islamo Nazis.
Criticism of Israel is not the same as “anti-Semitism”.
No, criticism of Israel is not the same as antisemitism Israel society is one of the most vocal self critical on earth. To a fault perhaps. Yet there is power in It.
So at the same time antisemitism is very real. Always has been. We cannot allow anti semitism to mask itself as criticism of Israel and it often does.
Israel is a very open democratic place. Go there if you want. See for yourself.
Spindok
” Criticism of Israel is not the same as “anti-Semitism”. ”
Correct. But attacking Israel is the same as anti-semitism.
Sure it is. It’s just the new “cool” thing to do to cover the Jew-hatred.
No other country on this planet is subjected to the constraints and critisism that Israel is. The pretend little sentiment that bloodthirsty animals can’t be expected to act like human beings but Israel should be held to a higher standard is bogus and just as hate-driven, although is neatly lets the arabs off the hook for any and all atrocities.
I would be interested in the profile and questions in that poll.
did they do it in a Turkish market ?
This article is so full of assumptions and opinion, combined with anti Iranian and pro Israeli BS I have to puke. The world allowed Israel to become a state…for one reason only–
“I don’t want them in my backyard”. The world created Israel from the result of their own misgivings about their treatment of Jews. Can the whole world, along with the entire historical account of human history, be wrong?
Yet, Jews and Christians alike lived peacefully and under protection of the Muslim Empire for a few hundred years until the Crusades came along and killed them all and forced the rest to leave Palestine.
Stop blaming the Muslims for hating the Jews.
…and why does Israel seem to get a Card Blanche’ for their behavior?
They are well armed, receive financial support, against an “enemy” that believes their only option is to “self destruct”, in order to counter attack in some way.
yes, Israel is a democratic state. At least 50% of the population supports abandoning the West Bank. But, that will never happen, and neither will the “right to return” as well. Why?
Because, like my own country I am convinced that those on the Right(neo conservatives) pull the real strings just about everywhere, including Israel.
If we are not allowed to criticize, or at least question Israel’s immoral and illegal acts, then we are only left with Lebanon and Iran. Do you all want that? If it weren’t for them, Israel (and the US) would run totally unchecked.
Name me all the countries you can think of that were founded on legality and morality.
Might makes right. This is the nature of reality, not law.
Wow – everything you said was…….wrong. Too many items to take on one by one. So your total rant is null and void.
” The world created Israel from the result of their own misgivings about their treatment of Jews. ”
Israel , a country you have obviously never visited has an uninterrupted Jewish presence for over 3000 years. T
” Yet, Jews and Christians alike lived peacefully and under protection of the Muslim Empire for a few hundred years until the Crusades came along and killed them all and forced the rest to leave Palestine. ”
Maimonides, who with his family had to flee Cordoba for their lives because they were Jews had this to say about life under islam-
” God has hurled us in the midst of this people, the Arabs, who have persecuted us severely, and passed baneful and discriminatory legislation against us…. Never did a nation molest, degrade,debase and hate us as much as they … ” .
” Stop blaming the Muslims for hating the Jews. ”
The muslims hate everybody.
” …and why does Israel seem to get a Card Blanche’ for their behavior? ”
Heres a guy who has never read a newspaper!
” They are well armed, receive financial support, against an “enemy” that believes their only option is to “self destruct”, in order to counter attack in some way. ”
Self destruct all you like. Just sop taking innocent civilians with you.
” yes, Israel is a democratic state. At least 50% of the population supports abandoning the West Bank. But, that will never happen, and neither will the “right to return” as well. Why? ”
Because when we dismantled settlements, moved Jews and gave you land you proceeded to attack us from it. We will nat make that same mistake again. AS a matter of fact, this time, when we take it back we are going to throw you out.
” Because, like my own country I am convinced that those on the Right(neo conservatives) pull the real strings just about everywhere, including Israel.”
Where are you from?
” If we are not allowed to criticize, or at least question Israel’s immoral and illegal acts, then we are only left with Lebanon and Iran. Do you all want that? If it weren’t for them, Israel (and the US) would run totally unchecked. ”
You don’t know a thing about morality. You are a death worshipper. I hope you get your wish.
Keep it up Germany. At this rate, those lowly Jews you hate so much will turn Berlin (a/k/a North Ankara), Frankfurt, Hamburg, Munich and Dusseldorf into glass craters.
“The bottom line is that Israel can hardly count on Germany as a friend.”
A nation with a majority Jewish population can’t count on the nation that birthed Nazism, and then slaughtered a few million Jews, as a friend?
Well, color me surprised.
With Germany’s history no one should look to them as making progress or not. If they are pro-Israel it will be seen as guilt, if they are anti-Israel its old habits resurfacing. What is important is Jewish self-determination and if Germany changes so be it, if not then its another reason why a Jewish state is so important.
As for Islamic terrorism the early elements of the Muslim Brotherhood tacitly approved Germany as the master race when they allied with Germany. Given the Jihadists targets they probably still have the same views. I’m sure young Germans might be tempted to go with the Brotherhood over Israel. They gain veneration and lose the guilt.
A great combination these Germans have, an antisemitic legacy and the overwhelming desire to profit from doing business with rich thug countries.
In case nobody noticed “the Germans” who perpetrated the Holocaust all basically all dead. Antisemitic feeling in Germany today comes from the leftist media who have poisoned much of modern German life. Hip young Germans are much more likely to be sympathetic to Abdullah the Immigrant than to old Otto next door, who is just an old Nazi.