Geert Wilders Respects Muslims, British Government Doesn’t
It is most unlikely that Ms. Smith had given Geert Wilders or his views much thought until two days before his planned visit. Wilders, now branded a threat to “public security,” had lunch in the House of Lords in December 2008. If he is dangerous now, he was dangerous then. So why ban him all of a sudden? Did the home secretary seriously think that any danger to public security would come from non-Muslims? From women, perhaps, whipped up into a frenzy at the sight of Geert Wilders’ hairstyle? Of course not. She believed it would come from Muslims, ten thousand of whom Lord Ahmed threatened to muster when the screening of Fitna was first advertised. This attitude assumes that the reaction of Muslims is a given, like a force of nature, about which we can do nothing and to which we must simply accommodate ourselves. The decision is the equivalent of telling women that they must not venture outdoors because to do so will lead, as night follows day, to rape.
Geert Wilders has been accused of portraying Muslims as a monolithic seething mob. But is it not Jacqui Smith and her supporters who see Muslims in this way? Geert Wilders, on the contrary, sees Muslims as individuals who may, and must, be reasoned with. Wilders’ quarrel has never been with individual Muslims, but with the ideology of Islam. Nowhere does he suggest that all Muslims are terrorists; he merely draws attention to those violent verses of the Koran that have been used to justify terrorism. Far from advocating violence, Wilders calls on Muslims to remove the violent verses from the Koran, an approach to reform advocated by the admirable group Muslims Against Sharia. He may have doubts as to whether Islam can be reformed. It is a challenge, certainly — a Koran without the violent verses would be a very short Koran. Perhaps it cannot be done and an irredeemably violent Islam must be jettisoned by Muslims in the West. But if Islam is to be reformed, it can only be by confronting those violent teachings in the Koran — and the Hadith and the Sira — not by pretending they don’t exist. In Fitna and elsewhere, Wilders warns non-Muslims of the dangers of Islam in its current, unreformed state, but he also invites Muslims to debate those dangers and to find a way forward.
By demanding that Muslims take responsibility for their religion and confront the violence within it, Wilders treats them as his fellow men. In contrast, the cringing Jacqui Smith treats them as you would a savage beast or a forest fire. I hold no brief for Islam and have little confidence that Wilders’ reasonable attitude will be reciprocated by many Muslims, but it makes his expulsion doubly unjust.
Can anything be salvaged from this sorry affair? Perhaps. The screening of Fitna went ahead in the House of Lords, albeit as Hamlet without the prince. As pointed out at the New English Review, polls in the Daily Mail and even the Guardian, editorials in our newspapers, and related readers’ comments have been overwhelmingly against the ban. I hope that the events of the past few days will serve to deepen the contempt of the British people for this government, and that Wilders will successfully sue it and win an appeal against the decision. Above all, I hope that those — a majority, surely — who had not heard of Geert Wilders, have now and will watch Fitna and learn from it. Learn we must, if this is to be Britain’s darkest hour. As things stand, I am ashamed of my country, which has proved pitifully unworthy of the faith that Geert Wilders placed in it.
This echoes a fairly recent occasion, when Sikhs rioted to close a theatre where a play, written by a sikh about a true incident. Rather than maintaining order, the police requested that performance of the play be cancelled. In Britain, any ethnic minority who threatens violence and mayhem will be appeased. The miners’ strike in the 1980s showed that where there is a political will, the police can confront public disorder. It is sad to relate but there was violence on picket lines and it was considered that the police action was “heavy-handed”. However, threats by muslims or any other group to commit violence towards the law abiding, should result in police action to protect the law abiding as they exercise their lawful rights. People, instead, are being ordered to surrender their rights, in order to appease the minority who threaten violence and disorder. What will happen when, emboldened by success, they eventually make demands which cannot be met?
Excellent. Well said, and true about most liberal social pandering to any group considered less than…read minority…
Since British Jews are unusually gutless, the corollary of this is that if you are a spineless minority, people can call for your death and nothing will happen to them.
But when it comes to Europe and Jews, the hatred against Jews is so fanatical, that even if Jews DID stand up and threaten violence, the European reaction in that case would be to double down against the Jews and round them up and send them to jail or just to shoot them.
By the way, Mary, are you taking bets to see how long it is till Carol shows up on this thread?
This blogger has seen the film and says it is ridiculous and vaccuous. So what are we missing? http://rsaconnectedcommunities.wordpress.com/2009/02/12/of-fascists-and-the-fascinating-mr-wilders/
Ahhh, Orwell’s Britain – a couple of decades late, but Orwell’s Britain.
Well, it was not only Milliband who refused to watch the film before critisicing it, but also, rather more shockingly, the Tory blogger Iain Dale who also is the publisher of ‘Total Politics’ and who runs one of Britan’s high profile blogs.
Iain Dale proudly made the same point, of not having watched the video — he muses that he’ll disagree with it’s contents in agreement with Chris Huhne(perhaps that is why he refused to watch it?) but he defended Mr Wilders, but of course, only in the context of free speech.
See: http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2009/02/dangers-of-banning-geert-wilders.html
By now, after he got laughed at too many times for being an ignoramous, Iain Dale has now bothered to watch the film, and then called Wilders an amateur Leni Riefenstahl, totally missing the point of the entire thing, and sadly, being proud of it.
It’s pseudo-intellectual spineless lightweights like Iain Dale that are far more of a threat to democracy and freedom than any rabid Islamist could ever be.
As publishers go, Iain Dale is a national embarrassment.
This blogger has seen the film and says it is ridiculous and vaccuous.So what are we missing?
The eminently level-headed Mr Wilders will not mind in the slightest if people call his film “ridiculous and vacuous”. He can shrug off criticism, even sweeping criticism like this. That is the difference between Geert Wilders on the one hand and many Muslims on the other.
The film is not banned, of course, and many people will now see it. I wouldn’t say it’s the best film about Islam; it’s just a starting point for a debate.
By the way, Mary, are you taking bets to see how long it is till Carol shows up on this thread?
She is very welcome, and I don’t mind at all if she says what I wrote is rubbish.
M. Cain says: “But let’s use this as an opportunity to think about what it means to be guided in our daily lives by respect for others…”.
When conditions are so extreme that British Jews finally leave, and the goal of Judenrein is accomplished, then the English rank and file are going to deserve what they are going to get from the muslims. Eric R. coins: “Since British Jews are unusually gutless…”, note the British rank and file who aren’t yet exponentially outnumbered, though similarly disarmed, they and their police even now are “avoiding” confrontation with the islamists, to the point of complicity, and to a degree which rivals even the French majority under nazi occupation. Talk about “unusually gutless”…
When I saw the British sailors give up and allow themselves to be captured by the Iranians without even trying to defend themselves, I knew Britain had officially become a Dhimmi state. This incident only adds confirmation.
There is only the United States remaining to defend civilazation against the onslaught of Islam – and for how long, now that we are in the Age of Obama?
I’ve also seen the film, which is, in fact, filled with hate speech. The hate speech comes from the pages of the Quran and from the mouths of the Muslims featured in the film. Mr. Wilders’ “crime” is to report faithfully what is said, and to make clear that he thinks they mean it.
Britain’s ban is bad enough, but the fact that the Netherlands might send him to prison for up to two years is an abomination.
Two days after Mr Wilders was disallowed entry to my country, there was a ‘festival’ in central London. The festival was organised by the Muslim Brotherhood and by Hamas, – two organisations which are officially proscribed in the UK. The festival was to celebrate their ‘victory’ in Gaza. I wrote to the Home secretary to ask how, in the face of Mr Wilders ban, such a festival could take place. Were there no police available to go and arrest them? I have received no reply.
Unfortunately, the increasingly isolated, low in the polls, labour government, is heavily reliant on the Muslim vote in many inner cities where they hold seats. This is the reason our laws can be flouted and our freedoms suspended. The Muslim vote cannot and must not be upset!
Savage beasts????? MAYBE, some are not, but their founder was, so how can we expect anything else? We, the U.S., couldn’t wait to destroy the Waco compound, but I very much doubt, the same action will happen to the hate filled mosques.
The Muslim vote cannot and must not be upse
Labour is desperately worried that they will haemorage even more Muslim votes to the Liberal Democrats. The whole Fitna wimp out probably has a lot to do with this in view of the election coming up next year (or earlier).
No. The British government FEARS muslims,just as it feared the nazis in he thirties;it’s called:appeasement.
“There is only the United States remaining to defend civilazation against the onslaught of Islam – and for how long, now that we are in the Age of Obama?”
Don’t count on us, Brits. Obama will soon be importing shiploads of “oppressed” Muslims to join the millions of blacks and illegal Hispanic aliens that comprise America’s “victim” socio-economic class. Victimhood has become a worthy profession in the States, as it takes an ever-increasing effort to sort through the myriad welfare programs to find those that guarantee the greatest return. Makes one perspire just to think of it.
Cn anyone name one country where the Muslims are not a problem ? …………..Didn’t think so, ’nuff said.
Don’t forgeert Wilders!
Stop talking, start acting
Isn’t your freedom worth a stamp???
If Geert Wilders falls, then Freedom of speech is dead in Europe. We are launching an extensive International Action SITA including two possible texts ; one comparing Wilders and Winston Churchill and another Wilders and Charlie Chaplin:
http://sitamnesty.wordpress.com/2009/01/23/i-support-democrat-geert-winston-wilders-against-islamic-fascism-and-its-dhimmis
http://sitamnesty.wordpress.com/2009/01/23/i-support-democrat-geert-charlie-wilders-against-islamic-fascism
To support Geert Wilders and our dearly acquired freedoms please participate to the 2 suggested actions and transmit this message to your friends owners of a website in order they publish it.
An other way to support Geert Wilders is to give some money. To donate: http://www.geertwilders.nl
The problem is professional politicians. This is their career choice. Once they lose an election, they’re pretty much out of the game. Then what will they do for a living? Oh, they can become lobbyists, but that’s a big step down from the halls of power. So, they pander to the agitators. Nevermind their duty to their country. They are in it for themselves.
Anyone who thinks that this is really a matter of religion is brain dead. This is a matter of politics and money. All we need to do is give these “savages” an opportunity to partake in Westernism and Capitalism and they’ll be hooked. The violence stems from psychotic religious leaders who have taken advantage of a populace that has nowhere else to turn to provide basic necessities to their families. Give them the opportunity to make a wage to provide for their families and have a general sense of pride of ownership and they’ll turn on their fanatical religious leaders in no time. It’s called creating a middle class. Once you establish the middle class, it’s the children of this class that will be able to get a serious education and become the professionals who will be completely assimilated by the host culture, whether it be Britain or elsewhere. That’s when the violence and archaic traditions cease.
Marc Malone: They can always get jobs clearing minefields ,but only if they do it blindfolded!
Whatever you do, don’t upset the religion of peace.
Sarc/off
ROPMA!
Quite.
And are Ms Shame of … I mean Shami Chakrabarti and her ‘Liberty’ friends up in arms over this innocent man’s treatment? You bet your bottom euro they’re not!
It is most un-PC to suggest so, so I will. Is Geert Wilders too blond? Are his eyes too blue?
I am entirely SICK of the behaviour of my government over this matter and more so over the compliant and docile press on the issue of Free Speech.
The same press that squeals that we have lost all our human/civil rights over the last 11 or so years. The same press that tries to snatch back defeat out of the jaws of victory when we are making inroads into this country’s REAL problem – creeping Islamicist fundamentalism.
The same press which in some numbers spend their time vainly trying to get another blue-eyed boy to the Netherlands – Tony Blair to The Hague.
I am utterly, utterly embarrassed about MY once great country. And deeply ashamed. I now have people writing to me at my blog from such places as Indonesia incredulous over Wilders’ “deportation”.
THEY are quoting the Magna Carta to ME!
The same Magna Carta that Chakrabarti likes to mention in her traducing of the present government and in particular of the previous PM.
These people including imported lawyers, 1st/2nd/3rd generation immigrants who tell us that WE are letting down OUR country can go to hell! In other words back to their own countries, from whence they came in search of a better life (which we willingly handed them on a plate for the last 30 years or more). And they can take their hell-makers with them.
And this is from someone who used to be a “liberal”. Nowadays not one of the three main political parties speaks for me.
So, since I have not a racist bone in my body, though I believe many of the liberal Left DO, I am now disenfranchised.
I am hoping that Mr Wilders will take our present government to court over this.
The only trouble is that when they fall – what will we get? A vacuous, rudderless Tory party by default and/or a Liberal Democratic party which understands neither liberalism nor democracy.
Quite.
And are Ms Shame of … I mean Shami Chakrabarti and her ‘Liberty’ friends up in arms over this innocent man’s treatment? You bet your bottom euro they’re not!
It is most un-PC to suggest so, so I will. Is Geert Wilders too blond? Are his eyes too blue?
I am entirely SICK of the behaviour of my government over this matter and more so over the compliant and docile press on the issue of Free Speech.
The same press that squeals that we have lost all our human/civil rights over the last 11 or so years. The same press that tries to snatch back defeat out of the jaws of victory when we are making inroads into this country’s REAL problem – creeping Islamicist fundamentalism.
The same press which in some numbers spend their time vainly trying to get another blue-eyed boy to the Netherlands – Tony Blair to The Hague.
I am utterly, utterly embarrassed about MY once great country. And deeply ashamed. I now have people writing to me at my blog from such places as Indonesia incredulous over Wilders’ “deportation”.
THEY are quoting the Magna Carta to ME!
The same Magna Carta that Chakrabarti likes to mention in her traducing of the present government and in particular of the previous PM.
These people including imported lawyers, 1st/2nd/3rd generation immigrants who tell us that WE are letting down OUR country can go to hell! In other words back to their own countries, from whence they came in search of a better life (which we willingly handed them on a plate for the last 30 years or more). And they can take their hell-makers with them.
And this is from someone who used to be a “liberal”. Nowadays not one of the three main political parties speaks for me.
So, since I have not a racist bone in my body, though I believe many of the liberal Left DO, I am now disenfranchised.
I am hoping that Mr Wilders will take our present government to court over this.
The only trouble is that when they fall – what will we get? A vacuous, rudderless Tory party by default and/or a Liberal Democratic party which understands neither liberalism nor democracy.
Apologies that the last comment was pasted in twice. Editor – please feel free to edit it.
On the other hand, perhaps it needs to be repeated over and over – until some in MY country – Britain – get it!
I have several posts on this issue at my blog.
Another one is here:
http://keeptonyblairforpm.wordpress.com/2009/02/16/how-many-eu-countries-use-sharia-courts-you-dont-want-to-know/
Just a sample from the Dementia Crew above . . . British Jews are unusually gutless . . . British sailors give up and allowed themselves to be captured by the Iranians without even trying to defend themselves . . . Don’t count on us, Brits . . . They (Muslims) can always get jobs clearing minefields, but only if they do it blindfolded.
Is there anybody you people don’t hate? Far as I can tell, you hate half of the U.S. and all of the rest of the world. That’s no way to live. That’s a good way to die. Slowly, rotting from the inside out, resentful, regretful, afraid, delusional.
Can John Bull rise one more time from the ashes of the pyre laid by his own government?
To: #24: One of your Own
————————
I agree with you, One of your Own.
So many of the posts in the comments sections on PajamasMedia in general – especially when commenting on Moslems or Obama (Axios) – have come to resemble the ravings of lunatics. Reason and logic are nowhere to be seen. It’s all like “emotional” and infantile…..even has a tinge of insanity about it.
If these people are married, I often say to myself, I can’t help but feel profoundly sorry for the spouses….it must be an unremitting nightmare for them to have to deal with someone so totally out of control.
Didn’t use to be this way at the beginning. At the beginning of Blogdom, that is. A blog used to be a civilized forum for serious debate on a particular issue.
But now, it seems, every under-employed incontinent sociopath demands his right to be heard. It’s pathetic. And it’s blog-wide, not just on pajamasmedia.com.
(Watch me get trounced)
As far the issue at hand – the Wilders deportation case – let’s not forget the US is similarly guilty of this type of thing.
I’m thinking in particular of Tariq Ramadan, invited to teach at Notre Dame but barred from entering the USA to take up the post. (He’s now teaching at U of Oxford, or he was, last I heard).
Ditto with Yusuf Islam (aka Cat Stevens) the now “spiritual singer”.
My point is, what happened to Wilders is not such a new thing. It’s happened before in almost every country you can think of.
(After all, Dubai has just deported a pair of Brits for fornicating on the pristine beaches of Araby….tsk tsk).
It’s interesting to note that so notable a figure as Edward Said of “Orientalism” fame, was “barred” from entering, let alone lecturing, at several if not most Arab countries. A book could be written on that “issue”, yet it’s never mentioned anywhere.
Bottom Line: all this gibberish of what happened to Wilders is mostly a “tempest in a teapot”. The real issues in this case have given way to sensationalism, just like reasoned discourse has in the blogs.
@26 Whistle_Blower ~ “The real issues in this case have given way to sensationalism, just like reasoned discourse has in the blogs.”
The “real issues” being what, exactly? Or is that preciously overwritten, ever-so-wise-and-above-it-all post about nothing all you have?
Ever hear of a guy named Wormtongue?
27 marymcl (or as they call you down at the lab, marymucel) . . . Slowly, rotting from the inside out, resentful, regretful, afraid, delusional.
Nice try but no cigar. Answer the question Wormtongue – what are the “real” issues?
@ 27 marymcl
Thanks for your comment. My point was that the Wilders’ case [notice correct usage of genitive marker (')]…. (genitive = possesive – a grammatical category) is overblown in importance. Similar things have happened before elsewhere. I’m surprised you didn’t quite catch my argument.
I can’t help it if I write well. You call it “preciously overwritten” but my English teacher calls it “brimming with clarity” and I’ll take her judgment over yours any day.
Ever hear of a gal called AmoebaBrain?
@30 Wormtongue
You don’t have an argument. Your post is a string of irrelevant generalities and the most transparent piece of fifth-column propagandizing I’ve seen in a long time. In other words, it’s inept. As for your English teacher, she needs to read a few dead white men and sharpen up her assessment criteria.
No, I’ve never heard of AmoebaBrain, but everyone knows about Wormtongue.
@31 AmoebaBrain
I strongly suggest you re-read my original post #26 because part of it describes you to a T.
Here’s the specific quote I’m thinking of:
“If these people are married, I often say to myself, I can’t help but feel profoundly sorry for the spouses….it must be an unremitting nightmare for them to have to deal with someone so totally out of control.”
I realize you never made it to your high-school prom (nobody asked), so to help you chill out, listen to this melody from your era.
It’ll bring back memories……not necessarily fond ones, but memories nonetheless. (Nothing wrong with continuing to dream).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfswpegEHHI
Adieu and good luck….you need it.
That’s hardly the most graceful concession, but I’ll accept it. (Though I’ll pass on the link thanks.)
Still no “real issues” huh? Good luck yourself Wormtongue
To: One of your Own
Oh God, she’s fallen in love with me! (I’m talking about AmoebaBrain). Happens every time….insult a female and she’s tripping all over you.
!!Vade Retro Me, Satana!!
Mary Jackson – I think your central point is excellent. We all need to recognize that those who rush to appease these violent men and “protect” them from the likes of Geert Wilders are projecting their own demons on the rest of us.
“And the lion lay down by the lamb”
@Whistle_Blower – truly you blow.
“Perhaps it cannot be done and an irredeemably violent Islam must be jettisoned by Muslims in the West.”
How about jettisoning irredeemable Muslims from the West? Or does your thought here fall in line with some universalist belief that all organized foes can be “redeemed” if we give them a chance? Violent Muslims are not the greatest threat. You should know this. But to distinguish violent from non-violent from altogether non-threatening is impossible. You should know this also. Don’t you suspect there is some considerable jostling of people between these ranks, too, as with the economic classes?
When it hits the fan you will probably still be wondering “Why can’t we all just get along?” Your views, espoused here, are dangerously simplistic and unproductive.
Two deranged individuals, Jim Sutter (supported by CAIR) and Bill Warner (claims Geert Wilders is a Nazi), are joining forces to defame Muslims Against Sharia. Before you buy into their lies and distortions, please consider the sources: http://www.phonyrev.com/ & http://insanepi.blogspot.com/.