Gaza: A Matter of Proportion
One explanation is that presidents don’t work alone. They rely on the usual “inner circle” of close friends or cronies, on advisors with agendas of their own, and finally on the government machine. As far as Sarkozy is concerned, most of his friends or assistants stem from either the Gaullist Right or the pro-Third World Left, and both groups take it for granted that Israel is not to be supported. The best president in the world will waver under such pressure. Remember Ronald Reagan, who underwent pro-Saudi political reeducation in the summer of 1982. Fortunately enough, there was also a pro-Israel wing in the administration and it was restored to full influence and power the next year. Alas, Sarkozy’s case is different. Regarding Israel, he is — or at least he used to be — almost the only one of his kind.
A second explanation, closely related to the previous one, is that the French president must take into account a growing Islamic community or is advised by his inner circle to take it into account. As a presidential candidate, Sarkozy ran in 2007 on a staunchly anti-immigration platform, which stressed the need for “national identity.” The moment he was elected, he turned to the very opposite: a policy of multiculuralism and multiethnicity that entails affirmative action programs (once seen as anathema by French Republican standards) as well as the grand opening to Arab and African countries known as the Union for the Mediterranean. Support for the Palestinians, including Hamas-run Gaza, hastily dressed up as a humanitarian issue, is just a further step in that direction.
A third explanation is that Sarkozy, like almost everybody in the French political establishment, is getting mired in delusions of “grandeur,” and claims a “global role” for France in every crisis or conflict in the world, even if he actually lacks the requisite means. The Elysée (France’s presidential palace) and the Quai d’Orsay (France’s foreign department) are convinced that America will exert strong pressure on Israel after January 20. They think they should preempt the move, but claim they are prepared, at the same time, to “guarantee” Israel’s national security. Is really France going to make war on a nuclear Iran that would threaten Tel Aviv? Raising that ultimate question is perhaps the best way to restore some sense of … proportion.
The author translated exclusively for Pajamas Media this original post from his website.
Is it just possible Sarkozy might have a point? That Israel’s brutal attacks on Gaza are a disaster for everyone? Or will PJM stick to its bizarre ‘Israel is always right’ party line?
Brutal attacks? Any other state whose citizns had 3,000 missiles fired against would have transformed the zone in sea of napalm. And you would find it perfectly normal (cf all the scuses people like you gave to Russia about Georgia despite that, even if take Russian allegations at face value the Georgins fired ten times less ordnance)
Brutal attacks is what Blacks suffer in Sudan but because they don’t try to exterminate the Jews, they don’t interest our progressives.
@1
Proportionality would require that Israel exclusively target innocent civilians? Is that what you want?
Is it possible that you don’t understand that there will be no peace in Israel or Palestine until Hamas is destroyed? Or is it that you don’t want peace for Israel?
Israel, don’t let yourselves be pushed around by the logic of these ‘useful idiots’ Sarkozy, Obama, educate them. Make it clear that you will no longer seek their permission to defend yourselves from the global Jihad waged against you for being a “Jewish” state.
As far as the Gaza War is concerened, All we did was try to clean up the mess we made in 2005 when we left Hamas in charge of Gaza.
And yet some people have the ignorance to do this!
How can we let this pass?
DoubleTapper
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DoubleTapper, blogging on Guns Politics Defense from Israel
The Palestinians could take care of this themselves if the majority of them were truly upset about Hamas’ actions. The majority of the civilian casualties are caused because Hamas is able to operate in areas where any attack by Israel would inflict civilian casualties. It’s not like the Palestinians have any cultural aversion to forming armed militias, ergo one could easily conclude that their refusal to use force to expel Hamas from their civilian areas is a legitimate, societal guilty-by-association.
Shef Rogers 1., you are the one with the “party line.” (projection?)
Let’s start with these stipulations: 1. Israel left Gaza voluntarily three years ago. 2. Hamas and Co. have been raining missiles on Southern Israel more or less since then.
Given those stipulations, almost any other country would have have annihilated Gaza by now. (Can you imagine what Putin’s Russia would have done had Georgia been sending missiles into Russia?) The Gazans are hugely lucky the Israelis are so humane. Shef Rogers, you are party line nitwit and a liar besides. No one could possibly believe what you are saying. It is propaganda told by true believers to themselves.
Israel is probably acting while it still can. Israel may feel that once Bush leaves office, it won’t get the support from the US it used to get. Obama has certainly sent mixed signals both in words and appointments as to the level of support Israel can expect from the US with an Obama administration at the helm.
As to the reason for Sarkozy’s stance, it’s probably in line with Obama’s view of the situation and Sarkozy is just making nice with the next POTUS.
Bloodshed is always to be regretted, avoided if possible. Israel has to avoid the situation where it creates a lot of damage but gets little or no peace in return.
I think that Israel has to change the fundamental ground situation in order to justify the bloodshed. This means a permanent blockade of tunnels to shut off rocket smuggling. Or possibly moving back the Gaza population so it can no longer launch rockets. Or a regime change in Gaza to something more moderate; Possibly the PA.
I think the backstory is that all the governments have agreed that now is the time for a two-state solution, and Hamas, being athwart the path to that solution, has to go.
I’m not at all sure that a two-state solution is a path to peace, but the powers that be don’t listen to me anyway.
Allow me to propose a simple scenario to those who speak of “disproportionate” Israeli responses. Suppose three men break into your house, and kill *one* of your family members. You have a pistol, and you manage to kill one of them. You’re not certain what will happen if you leave the other two alone; they may try and kill the rest of your family, them may leave and try again later. They’ve been very clear that they hate you and everything you stand for, and they’re very clear also that they’d *like* to kill everyone in your house. Do you let them go, because you’ve already responded “proportionally”? How naive can you get?
Sarkozy is FRENCH—–enough said.
Sarkozy must be living in a vacuous and morally ambiguous la-la land. There is no such false idea as “disproportionate reaction” when it comes to defeating an enemy of liberty and individual rights; islam. Evil needs to be crushed. Europe has been feminized and morally castrated. Sarkozy, you aint helpin’ Europe find its moral fortitude by allowing moral concessions to islam’s tyranny.
unfortunately there are no good guys in this beef. possibly the most guilty are the people constantly working for peace and cease fires. sometimes only war can resolve the unresolvable.
i wonder if the conflict between the north and the south would have ever ended if the UN was in existence in the 1860′s. likely barbed wire would still separate the sides with generations of blacks raised in camps like Palestinians.
peace is for chumps.
Shef, let me make it easy for you to understand. The charter for hamas states that their ultimate goal is the destruction of Israel. Need I say more!
1. Shef Rogers wrote:
Or will PJM stick to its bizarre ‘Israel is always right’ party line?
Peter asks: And what part of national defense is wrong?
I don’t have a dog in this fight since Israel has never done anything to catch my fancy, but I have to admit it would just feel good to see Hamas wiped out and all their buildings flattened, and the rest of Gaza’s whining, ungrateful population pushed out to sea in lifeboats with a week’s rations.
By rights, Gaza should be a prosperous Mediterranean city-state — another Singapore. Why isn’t it? Because the Arab leaders of Gaza are gangsters and terrorists. See more here: http://astuteblogger.blogspot.com/2009/01/why-isnt-gaza-rich-as-well-as-famous.html
Today, a Hamas terrorist was killed by the IAF. He was responsible for many suicide bombings and was in charge of setting up Hamas in civilian areas to hide behind women and children. He sent his own son to do a suicide bombing and die in 2001 as well. Also, he was behind many plans to attack American cities.
I love the IDF for taking disgusting scumbags like this away from our society.
when someone is trying to kill you (i.e. lobbing rockets at your house) the only “proportional” response is to kill them before they kill you.
It’s also ironic that Russia is allowed to kill 10-20% of the entire population of Chechnya in indiscriminate bombings and shellings, but Israel kills several hundred people and gets ripped to shreds.
Let’s wait a few years till the French get their own intifada. They’ll change the tone very quickly. Algeria in the 50s anyone?
The IDF should answer one smart bomb for every pali dumb dumb rocket.
For every rocket and suicide bomber, Israel should reclaim a square foot of land. Flatten Gaza, drive the murderous bastards out, totally. Let there be as many Arabs in the Knesset as there are Jews in the Saudi government. Banish them for being a fifth column and seize all their property; mete out to them what Jews in Arab lands have been meted. That’s the only way to make the Arabs understand that they shouldn’t mess with Israel. As for the world, perhaps Israel should empty its jails of Arabs and send them to all the countries that call for a “proportionate” response.
Let somebody fire a few hundred of these Hamas-type missiles into the center of Paris and we’ll soon find out what Sarkozy and the French public really think is a ‘disproportionate’ response.
Everything else is just being a moral ‘poseur’ (pardon my French).
It really is remarkable, or would be if it weren’t just such an old pattern — clowns like “Shef Rogers” taking the line that it is not necessary to go through the trouble of building an argument demonstrating that his assertions are true, or that those in the article are false. It is enough merely to accuse the publication in question of being a Zionist front.
With analytical talent and writing ability like that, he could be an English professor.
“Proportionate response” is a concept adored by idiots and diplomats–but I repeat myself.
I was extremely disappointed in Sarkozy’s response. He obviously lacks moral integrity.
HOLD ON! Israel has killed thousands of innocent Palestinians with advanced weapons provided by Dick Cheney. This was in response to a few uncontrollable freedom fighters who launched a few home-made rockets into practically deserted areas. That’s not disproportionate? Yet again, we see an American puppet state do the bidding of war criminals. I actually feel sorry for the Jews. They’ve now stooped to taking direct orders from Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, George Bush, and that guy from Night Rider. What’s his name? Oh yes, David Hasselhoff. Another criminal. He has spread the disease of American consumerism throughout the world with that sickening series “Bay Watch”. No wonder Europeans hate us! How can a poor Palestinian who just watched Pamela Lee flaunt her goods not want to exact some revenge? And who’s he gonna hit? He can’t strike the USA, we’re too far away! So he strikes out at our puppet…Israel. It all make sense.
Sarkozy doesn’t lack moral integrity. His problem is that Muslims are now 10% of France’s population and growing rapidly. I believe that 25% of France’s population under 25 is Muslim. France can’t stand up for Israel, nor can many other Eurabian countries, without upsetting the Islamonazis within their own borders. Europeans no longer have the will to fight and within a few generations there will be civil war or quiet dhimmitude. That a nuclear armed France is a danger to the US somehow escapes the attention of our State Dept. If Israel ever put out the call for non-Israelis to help in its defense I’d be on a plane asap.
“”Or will PJM stick to its bizarre ‘Israel is always right’ party line?”"
Oh, come on. Israel is not always right. For example, the fact that they’re still fighting Palestinians when any other westernized nation would have wiped them out or imprisoned them down to women, children, and invalids proves that Israel is not always right.
400-TO-ONE IS PROPORTIONATE ACCORDING TO HAMAS:
WHEN HAMAS NEGOTIATED EXCHANGES WITH ISRAEL, THEY DEMAND 400 PALIS FOR EACH ISRAELI.
James, what planet did you just arrive from? I say this as it is obvious that you must be new here and have only read the New York Times so far.
“A third explanation is that Sarkozy, like almost everybody in the French political establishment, is getting mired in delusions of “grandeur,” and claims a “global role” for France in every crisis or conflict in the world, even if he actually lacks the requisite means.”
Isn’t this the obvious answer? Sarkozy meets with Livni and doesn’t contradict a word she says, then the Elysee announces plans for a round of “shuttle diplomacy” meetings over the next week. Plus, this has long been a part of the world in which France has (with some reason) believed itself to be relevant.
I admire M. Gurfinkiel for fighting the good fight, but he can hardly be surprised.
How come Hamas is not legal in Gaza? The guys won the elections. As Abbas’ term ends in a few days, Hamas speaker must succeed him.
May I add?
If two men break into your house, one kills, God forbid, your son and the other rapes your wife, and you overpower them and in the fight kill the one who murdered your son, do you then rape the other guy?
What a joke!What ceasefire are you talking about that Hamas has broken?When everybody knows that IDF were attacking Gaza every fortnight and killing innocent civillians at will!The state of Israel is real TERRORIST here.What would you have done when you are everyday a powerful millitary?Sit back and die?Dont lie to the people cause that kind of lie is past its time.
#35 Yisrael Medad ; No you kill them both! Got the picture?
“I was extremely disappointed in Sarkozy’s response. He obviously lacks moral integrity.”
You have it in one, I refer to him as Sarkozy the Socialist…, the issue is that like many in the West we are forced to chose between hard left or soft left, he was the best out of a bad bad lot.
This is key to the man Sarkozy and so spot on in terms of the article above:
“As a presidential candidate, Sarkozy ran in 2007 on a staunchly anti-immigration platform, which stressed the need for “national identity.” The moment he was elected, he turned to the very opposite: a policy of multiculuralism and multiethnicity that entails affirmative action programs (once seen as anathema by French Republican standards) as well as the grand opening to Arab and African countries known as the Union for the Mediterranean.”
When it came to the election my wife who could vote was happy that at last we seemed to have someone who would break the stranglehold of the left on France, that was a short lived hope, we soon learnt that the man has no morals, when he married this Carla Bruni who is a real leftie I knew he was going to move even further left and he did.
He is doing all he can to get elected next time, he is following the footsteps of Mr Chirac, the only pledge he kept on his election platform was to ignore the No vote in the referendum, this man is not what people in the USA or France thought he is.
James, your comment is extraordinarily naive in so many ways. First, the number of rockets and mortars fired into Israel since Hamas stole power through a bloody coup are in the thousands. Prior to this Israeli response, over 150 rockets were fired into The Sovereign Nation of Israel. They landed in city streets, classrooms, schoolyards, and killed innocents and injured dozens more. Your attack on Israel’s right to defend herself is ludacris. Where do you live? What nation? City? Town? Please do tell us. Perhaps we can test your resolve in the face of near death at a moments notice. Are you a Christian? A Jew? A. Atheist? Agnostic? Buddist? Seikh? If so you too are on the Hamas hit list. Enjoy defending terrorists and spewing anti-Semetic hate. Please let us know where you can be found. I’m curious how you would react to a rocket filled with lead balls exploding in your living room. And your response would be…?
Sometimes a fool is nothing more than a fool.
woah, the reversed psychology is working quite well, LMAO
since when Israel is happy with France´s policy ? uh, I tell ya, when we were doing HER policy, um, long time ago, before 1967 war !
I still remember the Ariel Sharon years, there was an israeli AGGRESSIVE advertising in France for inciting the french Jews to emigrate into Israel, yeah, those bloody muslims make more children than the UberMenschen of Israel, therefore they need new jewish blood approvisionnent ; emphasizement was made on a “supposed” important anti-semitism of the Frenchs, but only averred true in some surburb, some former north african immigrants fell empathy with the Pals after the first intifadas. Not many of our well established Jewishs wanted to take on the emigration bet, um, no equivalent job, or no job at all were available in Israel, plus our jewish population is secular, then problem, they had to attend religious classes in Israel, so, finally quite a lot that were tempted by the travel, came back to France where they feel more at home, where they can enjoy FREEDOM of thought and speech….
Sarkozy is NO country “valet”, he told to the Chineses, just a few days before, to go f… themselves, that they have no right to dictate France policy, idem for Israel, idem for Germany, idem for UK, and by extension, Sarko the Americaner, Sarko the french JEW, discovered that he is also Sarko the FRENCH, that his fate is in the very France, so as a French, he is entitled to open his mouth, and like him ,or not, he has balls as well as 5 brains (ditto Carla)
Vive Sarko, Vive la France, f… the frustrateds !!!!
“If someone tries to kill you, you try and kill ‘em right back!”
~Mal Reynolds, Firefly episode “Our Mrs. Reynolds”
In response to #36 moa;
Hey, moa, since when is self defense a terrorist act? If you had thousands of rockets landing on your property time and again, killing your family indescriminantly, I’m really sure you would simply sit back and take it, right?
The cry about “proportionate response” always make me wonder why people seem to expect the Israelis to be as incompetent as the Palestineans in fighting. Why shouldn’t Israel respond according to their ability, to the daily bombings by Hamas? Wouldn’t a logical person wonder why Hamas was so stupid that they continued launching ineffective bombs into a country that had the ability to actually hit targets? Why would Hamas continue to locate their munitions among their own civilians – if indeed they actually cared about their people?
It’s also ironic that Russia is allowed to kill 10-20% of the entire population of Chechnya in indiscriminate bombings and shellings, but Israel kills several hundred people and gets ripped to shreds.
That’s not ironic – it’s diagnostic.
Diagnostic of the political motivation of the left, and the extent to which their agitprop has infected Western society.
STEVEOH…..I see your game. “Where you from, bro?” Right. Ever since the Bush/Cheney/Hasselhoff sponsored domestic wiretaping law went into effect everyone wants to know where I live. Why, so that Bush can listen in on my phone calls? Is that the game? NEVER! I live in a place called REALITY, where I readily know what’s right and wrong. I don’t have to tell anyone where I live! I live just outside San Francisco.
I like James. Trolls can be fun…!
I also like Doubletapper, if for nothing else his nom de guerre is actually the answer to the entire problem.
Double tap them.
And if you do not know what that means, then you are probably a leftie in dire need of some proper firearms training….
And if you needed any further proof that Iran (that is funding Hamas and Hezbollah)is run by stark, raving idiots, then remember this — Israel is a NUCLEAR POWER. They have several diesel-electric subs armed with nuclear weapons, and not even the United States knows where all of them are at any given time.
The whole world needs to stand back and let Israel handle this problem now, while it can still be handled with conventional weapons. And god forbid that Ohlmert and crew chicken out like they did in 2006, because if they do, a far-right wing faction will get elected in Israel.
If that happens, this current escapade will look like a picnic.
“STEVEOH…..I see your game. “Where you from, bro?” Right. Ever since the Bush/Cheney/Hasselhoff sponsored domestic wiretaping law went into effect everyone wants to know where I live. Why, so that Bush can listen in on my phone calls? Is that the game? NEVER! I live in a place called REALITY, where I readily know what’s right and wrong. I don’t have to tell anyone where I live! I live just outside San Francisco.”
Don’t let these evil NeoZionist scum pig dirtbag commenters get you down, bro. I’m well aware of the Cheney/Rumsfeld/Hasselhoff axis’ evil designs and am fighting the good fight against these dark lords of Sauron at every turn.
But don’t let Pat Sajak off the hook, either. It’s quite obvious that a man who wears suits that well-tailored is intimately connected to the nefarious worldwide jewish conspiracy’s long tentacles.
Death to the Sajak/Hasselhoff/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Bu$Hitler McChimpBurton conspiracy!
Maria Claudia, and your happy, well Sarko will not get my wifes vote next time, she has decided not to bother, we might as well have someone who opennly calls themselves a socialist…
Sarko will not get my wifes vote next time
yeah ? are you polygame ? LMAO, Sarko doesn’t need your wifes’ votes, until the next elections, there will be no more socialist party, but micro-lefty parties, um that still don’t know on wich policy they will opt, cuz actually they are making they laundry in open air, and it smells… like a future defeat
Sarko makes the policy I voted for, sometimes a bit clumsy, though he is improving, (his discourses !!!!),
in EU, you can’t be a mere conservative, there are no structures that allow it, traditionally the EU is a social democraty
Sarkozy’s response is what I have come to expect from the
French. Typically, they run when the going gets somwhat
tougher tnan yesterday’s croissant. If memory serves, they showed their true mettle during WWI, WWII, Dien Bien,
Phu any other unpleasantness they might have encountered.
As a force in the world, they are truly irrelevant.
Marie Claude, a sarc sense of humour on my missed ‘, anyway we don’t need a Socialist party in France as Sarko is stealing their clothes, and my wife did not think she was voting for a Socialist, only a Socialist can place a tax on investment to re-distribute wealth, if you are French you will know what I refer to?
And now the great leader Sarkozy is one his way to save the day diplomatically, first to Israel and then to…. Egypt…., what about Gaza or even Syria to meet the leader of Hamas, nope, so there you have it European diplomacy at its finest, all focussed on putting pressure on one side only, Israel, naked for all the world to see ineffectural window dressing, Sarkozy you are a joke, pure and simple…
Amazing, this is France, that has showed its contempt for authoritative oppression fearlessly be it the bourgeosie [let them eat cake!], the resistance or the students revolt.
And they cannot comprehend an enclosed occupied population. What happened to France?
persian kitty, at least they are not fakes (like the persian manifestations)
David H, are you concerned by this “supposed socialist tax” ? um so far it was intended to take a “backchich” on financial movements, Madoff money cheatings anyone ?
yeah, the great leader Sarko, has no fear to “wet” his shirt
he just got to try to see what he can do to initiate an “exit” to this “eternal conflict”, anyway, he is alone to try SOMETHING, where is the american administration ?
and your a whinner !!!!
J. PINKERTON SNOOPINGTON:
go back to your “western” hollywood movies, that’s where you read your history ; yeah, we all know that the good ol guis ALWAYS win, um, sorry, whin !!!