Gay Marriage: Evolution or Revolution?
Twenty-four years ago, California started a revolution that will culminate in this year’s statewide election on same-sex marriage. In 1984, same-sex couples lacked not only the ability to marry one another, but were denied virtually any government recognition of their relationships — anywhere in the world.
In the early 1980s, there was not even a vocabulary yet for talking about same-sex couples. At the time, homosexuals in many states could still be subject to arrest for violation of the criminal sodomy laws. Naturally, they had bigger problems than trying to vindicate their rights as couples.
California’s sodomy law was taken off the books by the Legislature in 1976, which made the courthouse look a little less formidable here. For whatever reason, though, Californians took the lead in actively challenging laws that ignored the existence of same-sex couples.
One of the first cases involved Earl Donovan. He had been living with his partner for 27 years. When his partner died, Donovan filed for death benefits. He ultimately prevailed — but not because the court recognized him as a partner. The statute said that benefits could be paid to a “dependent” who was a member of the employee’s “household,” and it was clear Donovan qualified.
In contrast, Boyce Hinman tried to enroll his partner of 12 years in his dental coverage as a spouse, but was denied because Hinman and his partner were not married. The Court noted that California law prohibited the men from getting married, but concluded this was not discrimination because they were treated no differently from other unmarried couples.
It was this prevailing public attitude — that same-sex couples were like any unmarried couples — that illustrated the void same-sex couples faced. Heterosexual couples could, of course, marry their partner if they chose. But if marriage is a relationship between one man and one woman, what option did the law leave for same-sex couples?
At the time the Donovan and Hinman suits were pending, Larry Brinkin, a member of the San Francisco Human Rights Commission, was the first person to formally use the term “domestic partner,” in a lawsuit he filed against his employer, the Southern Pacific Railway. Brinkin’s partner had died, and Southern Pacific would not let Brinkin take three days of bereavement leave because the partner was not a legally recognized member of Brinkin’s family. The common definition of “family” included only those who were related by blood, marriage or adoption. Brinkin’s partner was not related to him in any of those ways.
After Brinkin lost his challenge in 1982, the San Francisco Board of Supervisors took up the challenge of somehow acknowledging the relationships of same-sex couples. They passed what would have been the first city ordinance recognizing domestic partners. But then-mayor Dianne Feinstein vetoed the measure.
The following year, the City of Berkeley ordered a study of the issue, and in July of 1984, the city council voted on — and rejected — a domestic partnership proposal, based largely on a definition devised by attorney Matt Coles. However, in August, the Berkeley School Board took up the measure and adopted it for school employees, making them the first government entity in the world to enact legal rights for domestic partners.
The City of Berkeley followed suit later that year. And in 1985, the newly formed City of West Hollywood enacted its own domestic partnership ordinance, and added a new twist — a registry where couples could formally and publicly make it known that they were domestic partners.
At the time, the combined population of Berkeley and West Hollywood was less than 183,000. Los Angeles had a population of about 3.7 million. So L.A.’s interest in the issue helped move it into a more mainstream position.
In April of 1986, the City of Los Angeles created a Task Force on Family Diversity, convened by Councilman Michael Woo. It was charged with looking at the “nature and extent of family diversity in the City of Los Angeles,” including “any evident problems” experienced by single-parent families, unmarried couples and, specifically, gay or lesbian couples. (For the record, I served on the task force, and under the guidance of Task Force consultant, Thomas F. Coleman, and co-chairs, Christopher McCauley and Nora Baladerian, authored a paper setting out the framework for an ordinance that would recognize domestic partners.)
The Task Force held hearings in 1986 and throughout 1987. Several companies at the time had begun experimenting with domestic partner benefits for employees, beginning with the Village Voice newspaper. The primary employee benefit at issue was health insurance, and there was considerable resistance from the insurance industry to extending coverage to unmarried partners.
There were two primary concerns. The first was how an insurance company could tell the difference between someone who was just a friend or roommate, and one who was a life partner. A marriage license is a clear piece of evidence that the couple are more than just acquaintances. Lacking that, businesses — as well as governments — could be defrauded by couples who were not, in fact, committed to one another.
This resistance was heightened, at the time, because the partners at issue were homosexual, and the nation — not to mention the insurance industry — was just beginning to confront the issue of AIDS.
The Task Force report, issued in four volumes, noted the lack of legal options for same-sex couples, and recommended that L.A. recognize domestic partners. Using the models already in place in Berkeley and West Hollywood, the Task Force recommended that domestic partners sign a legally binding document setting out the specifics of their relationship.
(For example that they were unmarried, but were one another’s sole domestic partner, that they shared a common household and had joint responsibility for household finances.)
This certificate of domestic partnership could be used by the City (and any interested insurance companies) to delineate the couple from mere roommates who might be seeking health insurance coverage. In 1988, the City acted on the recommendation.
Domestic partnership was a political, not a judicial effort. While same-sex marriage had been discussed as a possibility since the formation of the first two national gay rights organizations in Los Angeles in the 1950s — the Mattachine Society and the Daughters of Bilitis — the only challenges to the marriage laws had been judicial, rather than political. And they had been failures.
If courts would not enforce this kind of equality, might there be some other form of recognition government could give to same-sex couples? That was the theory behind domestic partnership. Could the political process fill in the gap if something other than marriage was the legal vehicle?
The wisdom of this decision was illustrated by what happened subsequently in Hawaii. Three years after L.A.’s ordinance was adopted, Ninia Baehr and her partner, Genora Dancel, filed a lawsuit in Hawaii to have their relationship recognized as marriage. And in 1993, the Hawaii Supreme Court rocked the nation when it issued the first legal opinion from a state high court concluding that the constitutional protection of equality includes same-sex couples. This set off the well-known nationwide fury.
Because of concerns about whether other states would be required to recognize same-sex marriages in Hawaii, Congress passed the Defense of Marriage Act, or DOMA, by a vote of 85-14 in the Senate, and 342-67 in the House. The bill was authored by Georgia Congressman Bob Barr, and signed by President Bill Clinton, still a bit shell-shocked on gay issues from the firestorm he had set off by trying to fulfill a campaign promise to integrate open lesbians and gay men into the military.
These two laws with Clinton’s signature on them — DOMA and Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell — are a testament to the hurricane force in the national political arena of anti-gay nervousness in the 1990s. After all that, Hawaii reversed the court’s decision, changed its constitution, and implemented a limited form of domestic partnership they called “reciprocal beneficiaries.”
Meanwhile, in California, the local domestic partnership laws of the 1980s continued to move through the state’s political bloodstream. The first bill in the state Legislature was introduced in 1995, but died in committee. In 1999, after four more failed attempts, the Legislature passed AB 26 by Assembly Member Carole Migden. It provided minimal legal rights for domestic partners — hospital visitation and health insurance coverage for public employees — but it also provided the public registry that West Hollywood had pioneered.
There was vehement opposition, mostly from the Christianist right. They introduced an initiative, Proposition 22, for the March, 2000 election, which would add a provision to California statute (not, as with many other states at the time, a constitutional amendment) that said in its entirety, “Only marriage between a man and a woman shall be valid or recognized in California.” The initiative passed with 61.4% of the vote in favor, and only 38.6% opposed.
It was that initiative, along with California’s existing definition of marriage as limited to opposite-sex couples, that the California Supreme Court addressed and overturned this year. And now California’s electorate has the chance to ratify or reject that decision in November. So far, it appears that a majority of California voters will reject the initiative. Polls currently show that between 55% of voters plan to vote against Prop. 8, and while this is obviously a volatile issue for some, it has ceased to be inflammatory to a large number of Californians. After eight years of exposure to open and legally protected domestic partners, any fear, misunderstanding or just incomprehension about same-sex couples has gradually been eroded in the public mind.
However, even if Prop. 8 were to pass, its proponents have already conceded that California will not return to the past. In the years following 1999, California’s domestic partnership law evolved into a nearly complete equivalent to marriage, and the initiative’s proponents have made it clear in their ballot arguments — the definitive statement of an initiative’s intent — that it will not affect domestic partner rights. This is how public policy in a democracy is supposed to work. No matter what happens with Prop. 8, California’s same-sex couples will not be consigned to a world with no legal protections. Legally recognized same-sex couples are now an established part of the California landscape.
California has come a long way in less than a quarter of a century. We’ve given the world a small revolution, demonstrating that court decisions are sometimes a necessary part of the struggle for equality, but that politics and law do not work independently of one another.
We’re at the stage now where the political work is starting to pay off.






“However, even if Prop. 8 were to pass, its proponents have already conceded that California will not return to the past. In the years following 1999, California’s domestic partnership law evolved into a nearly complete equivalent to marriage, and the initiative’s proponents have made it clear in their ballot arguments — the definitive statement of an initiative’s intent — that it will not affect domestic partner rights. This is how public policy in a democracy is supposed to work. No matter what happens with Prop. 8, California’s same-sex couples will not be consigned to a world with no legal protections. Legally recognized same-sex couples are now an established part of the California landscape.”
I guess I’m confused but in a democracy if the voters choose to ban domestic partnerships… and the government chooses to keep them… isn’t that democracy not working…
“isn’t that democracy not working…”
Why of course it’s working Democracy (as defined by Edukator Ayres), don’t you know that in a democracy it is perfectly reasonable for government-appointed judges to flush your vote down the toilet in order impose their own laws on the land; I believe it’s called ‘social justice’ ie when the government uses lawyers and judges to jack-boot an individual’s right to vote.
It appears California is under Illiberal Regressive Rule where the Mob screws the Individual over and over again until nothing remains of civility, much less, rule of law and justice and all that jazz.
In this speific case, the judges will shut the voter up forever by denouncing them as Homophobe, where after the voter is then sent to government-sponsored sensitivity-training courses to alter your mind in the direction the judges want the voter to go.
This ‘social justice’ was quite successful under Stalin who himself created another ‘great Democracy’!
Oh goody for us…we are all belonging to the Government
Evolution?
Will not the concept ‘gay parents’ put an end to Darwinian Natural Selection once and for all?
The US Constitution guarantees the freedom of contract. Now that sodomy laws and anti-gay laws are unconstitutional, if two men or two women want to enter into a contract that has all the financial obligations equivalent to the marriage contract, then
a) that contract is legal and
b) that contract is enforceable in court and before any public agency.
People, This is a matter of a private agreement between two people. Leave ‘em alone. Let them find out how much fun it is when one party starts violating the agreement and they have to split up the property.
But I don’t know how, within the confines of our free society, how the voters can vote down the ability of two people to enter into a legal contract that affects only those two people. The voters can vote down the application of the word “marriage” to that agreement, since we have to have a word referring to the preservation of the race by two people joining together to procreate and stay together to raise the children (i.e., create and maintain a human family via natural reproduction) but this is not to say that two people entering into a legal contract to co-habitate is not important too. The two things are just different, and different words should be applied to each.
So this whole fight is about verbiage. Let’s all just settle down and grow up and let people be who they want to be. Amen.
Very easy when you only look at one side/aspect of it, George C..
I consider the continuation of the human species desirable.
But I suppose that is just “verbiage” to you too.
“The voters can vote down the application of the word “marriage” to that agreement”
Sure the voter can, after which the Judges flush the voter down the toilet.
“This is a matter of a private agreement between two people”
Really why then are Government Social Engineers constantly violating privacy?
“So this whole fight is about verbiage. Let’s all just settle down and grow up and let people be who they want to be. Amen.”
How can people grow up and be who they want to be if they are forced to attend Socially-Engineered Sensitivity Training Seminars.
Like I said before: We are all belonging to the Government…Socials Justice has seen to this.
In other words, Individuals no longer have the right to vote
I guess I’m confused but in a democracy if the voters choose to ban [interracial marriages]… and the government chooses to keep them… isn’t that democracy not working…
It comes down to two things: words & their definitions.
‘Palimony & no fault divorce.’ Marriage has no meaning.
‘Sodomy & perversion.’ Marriage has a meaning.
‘Mob rule; Democracy; Republic; Judicial Fiat.’
Intelligent discussion is not possible when terms are ambiguous & definitions fluid.
I believe the polygamists have their definition of marriage, too. Lawyer up.
Who can define ‘Full Faith & Credit’??
I’m all for clarity of terminology and a set of governing principles. Certainly in today’s America, heaven help someone foolish enough to deny a citizen some percieved entitlement on the basis of sexual orientation, even though s.o. is not yet a federally protected category.
ON the issue of anti-sodomy laws, one might, if one wanted, make a case for them on the basis of the “promote the general welfare” clause coupled with the extensively documented destructive physical character of sodomy. Of course this character has been minimized and ignored in the recent cultural demand for tolerance. But that’s another argument entirely.
On the issue of forming contracts, I agree we need to support the right of people to make legal contracts, and homosexuals ought to be able to form whatever legal contracts they wish, and they generally do so today, as it should be. The author correctly points out the problem of fraud in associations that are not “committed.” The presence of a contract does minimally solve that problem. But the real push has nothing to do with contracts. It is about cultural parity and radical equality, which is what mainstream Americans continue to reject despite decades of mainstream media assault against their traditional values.
Why does mainstream America still reject the idea of qualitative parity between heterosexual and homosexual commitments? This is a question that needs an answer. I don’t think it is because Main Street America is stupid.
Marriage: Evolution or Revolution? Actually it would be an Illusion and a redefinition of marriage as between one man and one woman joined together in matrimony: Bride, Groom, Husband, Wife, Male, Female. Fight for your rights as we all have had to at one time or another but in the end to call a sexual relationship that is contractual between a man and a man or a woman and a woman or multiples thereof is not by definition “marriage” nor should it be. They are not the same and never will be and never should be.
Terbreugghen,
As a libertarian-minded conservative, I believe that if two people, straight or gay, wish to put each other down as beneficiaries in a legal contract, we should let them.
Ditto for the military: as an Army vet, I have fewer problems with gays in the military, frankly, than with women for whom the physical standards are lowered.
Your question “why does mainstream America still reject…parity between heterosexul and homosexual commitments?” doesn’t really cut to the heart of the issue. The question is “why does mainstream America still reject homosexual?” at all. And the answer is largely, as unpalatable and politically-incorrect as some would deem it, is that America is 84% Christian and mainstram orthdox teaching considers homosexual acts sinful, based on Romans 1:18ff, I Corinthians 6:9ff and I Timothy 1:8ff. Even steering clear of the Old Testament Mosaic Law, the New Testament condemns homosexuality. I am not bringing this up to argue about the relative merits of literal v. figurative approaches to Scripture, but just to point out that for the majority of practicing Catholics and Orthodox, not simply evangelical Protestants, homosexuality is considered sinful and not worthy of social and legal mainstreaming. One doesn’t have to agree, or even to like it, but it’s a fact.
And my apologies for the typos and ungrammatical constructions–what I get for posting after only one cup of coffee.
Polygamy is next, I tell you. Muslims and Mormons will clamor for this right.
Honestly, I’m pretty apathetic about gay marriage, but the next step is polygamy.
Tim Furnish – HERE (glug glug glug…), have some. I don’t really need my 6th cup!
mjk – you reference polygamy; following their “logic,” the same could hold for adult/child or adult/animal relationships.
same-sex couples were like any unmarried couples
They are alike – there are two people who we assume love each other. But that is about it.
Men and women are different. A diverse heterosexual couple is different from a single-sex couple, and the difference matters. The heavy responsibility associated with fertility issues that 99% of heterosexual couples deal with every day are the tip of the iceberg. We are talking apples and oranges when we compare sexually diverse couples to sexually uniform couples.
No, they are really not alike, not much at all.
Marriage is a basic civil right that should be attainable by all Americans if they choose. For those who are uncomfortable with gay marriage check out our short produced to educate & defuse the controversy. It has a way of opening closed minds & provides some sanity on the issue: http://www.OUTTAKEonline.com
Thanks for your excellent review of the legislation, Richard Link. I have never seen it done so coherently elsewhere and I am proud we have published it. I will be voting against Proposition 8 in November but I am reassured that domestic partnership legislation is in place whatever the result.
If the basic rights of partnership/contract are already available to gays in California, why would they seek to redefine marraige?
I see two reasons: to reduce the overall meaning of marraige (look at countries where gay marraige is legal like Denmark) and also to have a platform to attack faith based organizations for discrimination.
These two goals would allow a smorgasborg of judicial “legislation” that could effectively dismantle organizations (like Catholic Charities) that either did not hire openly gay and “married” persons or did not provide services of some type to them (like adoption or marriage in a church).
People constantly cite “seperation of church and state”. It was meant to keep religion safe from the influence of the STATE.
Charlotte,
Your loaded language certainly doesn’t foster amity across the ideological divide on this topic: “uncomfortable….educate….opening closed minds….provides some sanity.” So let me get this straight: anyone “uncomfortable” with gay marriage needs to be “educated” so as to “open their closed minds” and disabuse them of their “insane” opposition thereunto?
Remind me: who has closed minds on the topic?
Charlotte -
And the arguments used are all applicable to polygamy.
It’s not the slippery slope argument – there is no inevitability. But if the same rationale justifies both same-sex marriage and polygamy, there is a problem with the rationale.
The problem is that there is more to marriage than love and commitment. There is also the unity of the two distinct halves of humanity. Gay marriage is a radical change, not more of the same.
Geez, I must be losing my mind! Homosexual behavior leads to no birthing, by design and definition…which leads to extinction…which may be what some are deeply thinking or realizing.
Marriage is for the kids, a notion that glues mommy and daddy together like every oath intends.
I like Freud and his notions on bisexuality…kinda makes sense to me.
What bugs me about the gays are their lack of creativity in this desire to become “legitimate and normal” in using “marriage” as their platform for acceptance into mainstream thinking. How boring.
Maybe all this is about Lawyers setting up the game for more business. Yea, that’s it…the lawyers are behind this!
Someone is always doing someone! And lawyers try to screw anyone who will stand still long enough, right?
I am a conservative. I also happen to be a Christian. I say let them marry, but don’t define it as a marriage. Many above have said the same, it’s a legal contract. The legalization of gay partnership could benefit society (less aids etc)
I find it very hard to look at two people that love each other, spent years with one another to not be able to pass assets, make medical decisions etc. They also will get to feel the tax benefits, and some of these people may become Republicans!
It is also around 3% of the population. We are talking about a very vocal minority. Homosexuality has been with mankind forever, so we might as well deal with it.
I see people being against it on religious grounds, but there are so many ways to interpret the Bible, that I don’t see that as an argument. In a civilized society, we should be civil. In ancient times, we may have just killed or maimed them.
This brings up another point. I know patriotic gays that would like to fight the war on terror. We need to figure out a way to correctly integrate them into the military. If it means having all gay units or brigades, so be it. We lost 400 interpreters because they were gay, and we cannot afford that.
I have said it before and I will say it again, marriage is not a state institution and every state and the federal government should get out of the marriage business. If people of all sexes and orientations want to be recognized by the state they need to file a domestic partnership agreement (or whatever they want to call it besides a marriage). Churches where marriage started can define it anyway they want and perform whatever ceremonies they see fit, but the joining of two people will only be recognized through a domestic partnership from the state. Marriage liscenses will be a thing of the past and Churches can be happy again because Holy Matrimony won’t be dragged around anymore. Marriage is an issue for the church and not the government. Divorce is the same way and should be left to the church, while disolution of a domestic partnership is a state matter.
You really don’t want the state involved in Church things because if you force biblical definitions unto the state then standby for Shia law to follow because someone will get the crazy idea that their definition of religious law is better than yours. I believe in the biblical definition of marriage, but that is between me and my church and no one else. So, anyone that wants to be married find a church that will do the deed, but when it comes to the state sign for a domestic partnership or whatever.
I agree with Jeff. But, the gays in the military thing is going to be a lot harder sell because my rights as a straight male will be violated because if men and women have to have separate facilities for showers and latrines then shouldn’t there be separate facilities for straight male, gay male, straight female, gay female, and trans? You see where this is headed. So, once gays start serving openly then you have to provide for their unique needs, which isn’t always possible in a military environment. You could breakdown all social barriers and have a free for all, but then that would truly destroy good military order and discipline. I have served with many a homosexual and it was never an issue, but it is a can of worms that the military does not need to open.
Thank you Sandy, I completely agree with everything in your post.
I want a refund. For thirty years I supported my wife and three children. Sent them to college and they are now productive members of society. My wife and I were told that through marriage we had a contract that allowed us to legally have children, enjoy certain legal rights and to share property in return for providing a stable environment for our children. Now as I understand it, just living in the same house is sufficient to be married. Well, if the state wants to change the rules, then I want a refund.
Deleted again, eh! Can’t haaaaaandle the facts? What will happen when you don’t control the delete button? How will you fare when you face that first “New Idea”?
If you have a problem with my post, debate it. Do you fear losing that much?
“A man either fears his fate to much,
or desires his deserts to samll,
if he won’t put it to the test,
To win or lose it all.”
-SAS toast.
“We can never be sure that the opinion we are endeavoring to stifle is a false opinion; and if we were sure, stifling it would be an evil still.”
~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, 1859
“Books won’t stay banned. They won’t burn. Ideas won’t go to jail. In the long run of history, the censor and the inquisitor have always lost. The only weapon against bad ideas is better ideas.”
~Alfred Whitney Griswold, New York Times, 24 February 1959
“The test of democracy is freedom of criticism.”
~David Ben-Gurion
“The populist authoritarianism that is the downside of political correctness means that anyone, sometimes it seems like everyone, can proclaim their grief and have it acknowledged. The victim culture, every sufferer grasping for their own Holocaust, ensures that anyone who feels offended can call for moderation, for dilution, and in the end, as is all too often the case, for censorship. And censorship, that by-product of fear – stemming as it does not from some positive agenda, but from the desire to escape our own terrors and superstitions by imposing them on others – must surely be resisted.”
~Jonathon Green, “Did You Say ‘Offensive?’,” as posted on wordwizard.com
@Boris
I guess I’m confused but in a democracy if the voters choose to ban [interracial marriages]… and the government chooses to keep them… isn’t that democracy not working…
no, not at all; the U.S. Constitution quite intentionally — and wisely — put certain matters beyond legislative prerogative so that popular will does not and cannot always prevail, regardless of the issue and regardless of how dear is the will to pass another law. And nobody’s brand of “common sense” trumps the Constitution, btw
@George Clarke
But I don’t know how, within the confines of our free society, how the voters can vote down the ability of two people to enter into a legal contract that affects only those two people.
it’s Catch 22, George; you make the subject matter of the contract illegal; consider that in most states you cannot go into court and sue a prostitute for breach of performance
@Ed Wallis
I consider the continuation of the human species desirable.
now be honest, Ed … do you really think gay marriage will stop heterosexual fornication? Heard any friends lately say, “well, that’s it, if they pass this gay marriage thing I’m going to stop having sex!” ??
didn’t think so
The confusion is about marriage itself. There are two types: Secular; and Holy.
Secular marriage was invented by the French some 400-500 years ago. Frenchmen discovered that all they owned was protected by law. If they caught a strange man in their house trying to steal, then they could kill him and still be right with the law. Did they catch that same strange man in their bed with their wife, well, sorry; no rights. So they invented secular marriage to give a man legal rights vis-a-vis his wife (because cuckolding was a real problem among the French).
It serves the same purpose today: legal rights. We can’t kill the cuckold anymore (except in MA, I’ve heard), but there is a host of other legal protections: Community property; Medical decisions; Burial decisions; inheritance; Step-parenting; Immunity from testifying; Taxes; Insurance coverage; etc….
So, shall we deny gays legal rights? If they get arrested, do they not get an attorney? Perhaps they’re only entitled to a Public Defender (civil unions)? Do they not get to vote, or just vote in only some elections (civil unions)? Of course not!
People, the government has an obligation to all its citizens, not just 95% of them. I don’t like gays: they creep me out. However, I won’t disenfranchise them. I’d rather enforce our Constitution than indulge myself to ease my discomfort. They have the right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. They also have protection from discrimination based on race, creed, color, etc….
That said, my Church had better not start marrying them! That’s the difference between secular marriage and Holy Matrimony.
Lincoln: “How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn’t make it a leg.”
This concept applies to some of the modern debasements of the language, as well.
I’ve got a blog post which I’ll shamelessly promote on the subject. Feel free to click on over.
TO: Marc Malone
RE: Okay…
…do they have the ‘right’ to adopt children?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The 'devil', as usual, is in the details.]
Stick around for the final flushing of the toilet,it’s just a matter of time.
Is gay marriage about the freedom of contract or the freedom to legally extort marriage benefits from employers and taxpayers?
Essentially, the only reason the gay lobby is pushing this is due to their own insecurity, their desire to be absolutely accepted and loved and cherised by everyone in the entire world under any circumnstances…
“WE”RE HERE, WE’RE QUEER, GET USED TO IT!!!!”
Yeah, ok– that’s fine.
“BUT WE”RE ALSO EXACTLY LIKE EVERYONE ELSE!!!”
Um… ok. Sure– that’s fine too.
“BUT DON”T FORGET THAT WE”RE QUEER… AND *PROUD* OF IT!!!!”
Um… ok, that’s fine. Now can you stop blocking traffic? Like go away or something?
“HATER!!! YOU’RE A HATER!! SAY YOU LOVE ME! SAY IT NOW!!”
Enough already.
Gays can live together and grant power of attorney and all the rest of any substantive needs they perceive in marriage, so why the obsession? Because the substance is not enough– the symbolic acceptance of being “just like everybody else” gives them complete rights to a centuries old tradition that properly belongs to everyone who is *not* gay. I say “tradition”, but clearly it’s a bit more than that– this is basic biology for pete’s sake.
Like it or not, a traditional family is best, all other things being equal, for a child’s development. And that’s something even a child can see. Sorry if that hurts anyones feelings, but that’s how the universe is set up. Take your complaints to God or whatever you believe in.
Meanwhile, a traditional family is the cornerstone of all civilized society, so forgive us “normal” people if we make some attempt to protect that, even if mere symbolism and “verbage” is all we can save.
No, Chuckles, I don’t think they should be allowed to adopt children, as that directly affects another human being. Still, if the kid has no home, well, better a home with gays than none at all. Kids need love. There’s probably some middle-ground to find there.
Phineas, I don’t think getting benefits for your gay spouse is “extorting” benefits. They work, and so are entitled to the same benefits of a heterosexual in their position. If you can get benefits for your spouse, why shouldn’t they in the same situation?
This has been one of the strangest issues in the last 20 or so years. The gay community has seemed almost determined to lose this debate at every turn, and downright bitterly resentful when they do. When Prop 22 was on the ballot, there was *no* TV advertising, none at all, opposing the legislation, and proponents did have ads. The State’s Democrats are very happy to have the gay community lose this sort of vote: they can blame the Republicans for the defeat, and at the same time, by losing, they don’t upset their ties to the heavily-Catholic Latino community by actually getting the legislation passed. The gay community seems wedded to the idea that rather than get a referendum passed, they must lose that (after all, the majority of the population are mouth-breathing louts, right?) and then turn immediately to the courts, who will of course side with the gays and rule in their favor. Given that prop 8 fails, it’ll be good to see the gay community actually win something like this, and perhaps have to deal with the fact that the country isn’t quite as homophobic as they’d like (or fear) to think.
“I guess I’m confused but in a democracy if the voters choose to ban domestic partnerships… and the government chooses to keep them… isn’t that democracy not working…”
It’s not working and I hope the judges get hit by a moving object and come to their senses or just stay senseless.
“Phineas, I don’t think getting benefits for your gay spouse is “extorting” benefits. They work, and so are entitled to the same benefits of a heterosexual in their position. If you can get benefits for your spouse, why shouldn’t they in the same situation?”
Single people are hard working too and are being discriminated on the tax issue. Marriage is about having a family and being committed to one person. Basically, when two opposites live together the product is more often than not children. Since, it is essential to the states future prosperity this individuals were given tax incentives. Well, now you are going to say that gays can adopt. Sure, but they are hardly family oriented. Next, why should straight couples that don’t have kids should have these cookies? Because it’s hard to predict if they are or not. It’s easy to predict gays will not contribute.
But, now marriage is about love and filling up pockets and a few political hacks.
@Knights13
Single people are hard working too and are being discriminated on the tax issue. Marriage is about having a family and being committed to one person. Basically, when two opposites live together the product is more often than not children. Since, it is essential to the states future prosperity this individuals were given tax incentives. Well, now you are going to say that gays can adopt. Sure, but they are hardly family oriented. Next, why should straight couples that don’t have kids should have these cookies? Because it’s hard to predict if they are or not. It’s easy to predict gays will not contribute.
wassat there fella? say again …. maybe next time it’ll make some sense … and how do you know single people are “hard working?” … do you have to work hard to get a tax deduction?
Knight13 – I guess you missed my previous post. Holy Matrimony is about building a family unit. Secular marriage is about legal rights. Any talk about providing benefits to induce such behaviour is simply fabricated justification. In fact, when I got married, my taxes went up! Marriage penalty, it’s called.
Regarding the democracy complaint: Um, we don’t live in a democracy. We live in a Republic. We don’t vote directly. We elect representatives to do most of that. Democracy just makes a mess. The more democratic our Republic becomes, the more of a mess it becomes. That’s why certain populist junk gets overturned. It’s our safeguard against mob rule.
I think that it’s a good thing when two people bond and declare that they are an item(and stay that way!). It also saves to public purse money because they can look after each other.
Few enough people marry today as is, and we have this grand collection of ‘Elanor Rigbys’ everywhere — so independent that they cannot connect with anyone.
Gay couples adopting kids? If those kids languish in kids’ homes anyway, there is nothing much to lose,any kind of parent is better than none, remember those kids have already been rejected by everyone else, no-one wants them anyway, so why prevent their last chance of a family?
If gay marriage treated like something positive, much good will come out of it, of course there are bad sides too, but then, heterosexual marriages also have problems — life has risks, always.
I see no reason to frown on love, let’s worry about hate in this world instead.
TO: Marc Malone
RE: Funny….
….I made a similar statement here earlier. But it didn’t seem to make it past the ‘moderator.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
RightwingHippieChick -
Would you support a polygamist’s desire to marry a second wife, if they love each other? Your arguments would all apply to that situation.
Certainly a child would likely be better with two men than in an orphanage, but what of the children deliberately brought about with no father or mother? Is not a diverse family structure generally best for children?
The male and female elements have always been central to marriage. Even in the days when marriage (for the nobility) was primarily a financial/diplomatic pact, it was always in the context of offspring (once Elizabeth I entered menopause all deals were off). Men and women are different, fertility is just the most potent example of the difference between a diverse couple and a uniform couple. I really don’t know how you can use the word marriage to describe two people of the same sex – it is not and has never been the same.
The unity of the sexes has been a bedrock of society. It dovetails with fertility and childrearing – mothers and fathers are different, having one of each is obviously not only optimal, but in a biological sense natural and inherent. Also, motherhood and fatherhood don’t end at conception, they begin at conception.
Allowing same-sex marriage, and polygamous marriage (the arguments for the one apply perfectly to the other), dilute the already waning power of marriage and make it (together with motherhood and fatherhood) meaningless, especially for its most important function – raising the next generation. Protecting the binary nature of marriage is absolutely in the government’s interest.
TO: Marc Malone
RE: Kids Need a LOT
There might not be.
Yes. Children need adults to raise them. But not necessarily adults who want them for the wrong reasons, i.e., accoutrements. Then again, from a Christian perspective—which is why I think my earlier comment was not allowed—there’s that business about….
I’m not advocating such punishments. That’s His job description. I’m just passing on a warning.
Children learn a LOT from what they see the adults who raise them do. That includes both good as well as bad behaviors.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Good and bad depend upon your worldview. -- CBPelto]
None of my comments have been blocked. Perhaps a more respectful and reasoned tone would help.
TO: Amphipolis
RE: [OT] Blockage
My first two were blocked yesterday. And neither of them were anything more nor anything less than what I’ve posted since my item @ Sep 24, 2008 – 5:46 pm.
What’s been ‘disrespectful’ about these latest? Or what do you consider ‘disrespectful’ in these?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. The topic was the same, should homosexuals be allowed to adopt children? The citations from that Wag was the same. The pointing out of the initial blockage was the same.
The only significant difference in one was that in the first one I pointed out a legal precedence for not allowing homosexuals to adopt children. Something of a personal nature in which an action on the part of my sister, denied me a top secret security clearance; she married an Iranian.
Chuck(le);
Homosexuality is a topic on which most debate is censored. Since there can be no debate when censorship exists and no solution or compromise without debate, logic says that the homosexuals don’t want a compromise.
They are on a do or die political mission. A Political Kamikaze run, if you will. Not sure why, but then again, I’m not homosexual.
I suppose that homosexuals want to replace debate with propaganda, which if they had their own children, they would know doesn’t work. Yet they keep trying. Isn’t that the definition of something?
Don’t ask, don’t tell is an almost perfect solution, but one the homosexuals don’t like. I think that is because homosexuals don’t breed, they recruit. So the DADT prevents them from recruiting (expanding their number, and therefore political power). So the marriage thingie is really about political power, not rights 4 queers, which is what the claim is. Just like using the word “queer” is a right guaranteed by the first amendment. When homosexuals try to ban the use of a certain word or words, they are taking away the rights they claim to be protecting and attempting to control the conversation at the same time.
It is what in military terms is called the indirect approach. Attack one place in hopes that your opponent uncovers you real objective in the process of defending where you are attacking.
“En las mentiras, verdad…. En la verdad, mentiras….
(In lies, truth…. In truth, lies….)”
-Fernando D’Ortega y Muñoz,
1932-1982
P.P.S. One other POSSIBLE significant difference….
I think David is still asleep and the regular ‘watch’ is watching the comments at this time. Just a theory…..but it is an interesting correlation.
[I believe in coincidence. I just don't trust it. -- Garrack, Cardacian Tailor/Tinker/Soldier/Spy from ST:DS9]
I think that some in the homosexual community agree with the comments that their relationship is the same as a heterosexual relationships therefore their union should be defined as “marriage. In fact they might do a better job with their marriage and even raising children. The following is a quote from the trailer as seen on OUTTAKEonline.com.
“The threat to the institution of marriage it not coming from the gay community it’s coming from the straight community. It comes from the fact that they don’t treat it as a sacred enough institution. They don’t respect it enough. It comes from the fact that you can go to Las Vegas and get married in five minutes. It comes from the fact that Brittany Spears who decided that it would be fun to marry a friend for a few hours and it comes from the fact that a woman can meet a millionaire on a TV show and forty-five minutes at the end of the show marries him. That’s the threat to the institute of marriage. It’s straight people not gay people.” Arlene Isaacson, Gay and Lesbian Political Caucus.
So you see some in the homosexual community have concern for the welfare of the heterosexual community and the children they produce through their union. We breeders are not quite up to snuff. Anyone who has concern for children raised by homosexual couples, well we really just want to deny them the same rights and protections afforded to children raised by heterosexual couples.
But we shouldn’t question those who wish to redefine marriage because if they say that it’s no big deal then it must be “Much ado about nothing” (yawn). When I hear that, something inside tells me “It’s a BIG deal”.
TO: Ex-fetus
RE: Indeed
And typical of the ‘progressive’ approach to rational discussion. I’ve seen it oft enough.
Did David block my comments yesterday? I cannot prove it in a court of law. But I have noticed that in certain volatile discussion where a ‘progressive’ or ‘atheist’ is the author of the column, my comments that invoke material from that Old Book, are more likely to become one of the ‘disappeared’.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Liberals aren't. Progressives won't.]
Lynn:
The problems with straight marriage are obvious. Indeed, the consequences of a bad straight marriage are generally worse because of the responsibility fertility adds to the relationship. That, my friend, is life.
That said, gays get divorced too. Problems with straight marriage are not in any way a justification for gay marriage.
Chuck – sorry, I have the disadvantage of not having read your blocked posts. I should not have spoken in the dark. Then again, I was not necessarily only referring to you – I thought there were others with the same issue but I have no time now to check that.
ON the issue of whether gays have been “disenfranchised” from a “civil right” I’d say the answer is no. In fact many gays DO marry. I have a friend who was married for 20 years and has three grown children. He’s only recently come out to his wife and kids. The practice is widespread, gays marrying straights for the benefits. So to say that gays are being prevented from participating in the institution of marriage is ludicrous. On the other hand, there are many people who are being prevented from marrying specific persons. Siblings are prevented from marrying, as are multiple spouses. These conditions for marriage are just as “arbitrary” (or intentionally directed toward social health) as the provision of one man one woman.
Any declared homosexual who found a way to make kids the old fashioned way has demonstrated the fallacy of the argument that holds genetic “orientation” as a behavioral absolute.
To Mr. Furnish:
We have similar backgrounds. I come from a conservative/libertarian background with military service as well. And we agree that two people have the legal right to contract with one another in any legally permitted manner, including homosexuals. I think I’ve stated as much in my earlier message.
Your restating my question doesn’t go far enough. Your answer that the reason western culture doesn’t advantage homosexual behavior at the same level as it does heterosexual behavior is because of restrictive religion is an evasion. Why does religion do that? Religion can do anything it wants. Why would a religious group take a position on homosexuality? The answer is for the same reason it took a position on other forms of social behavior. Protection of the health of the group by promotion of standards of behavior like avoiding certain foods (Trichinosis with Pork) and certain destructive behaviors. The reality is that homosexual behaviors are undeniably destructive, and this has long been known even into ancient times. Even the enthusiastic ancient Greeks had their reservations about it.
Traditional religions consider homosexuality abhorrent because of what it does, pure and simple. the reality is this. If homosexual behaviors brought one closer to God, if they purified the soul, if they added to the culture, there would be a completely different take on the issue in all the historical literature both sacred and secular. The reality is homosexual behavior does exactly the opposite.
And the question put to our culture is not whether we should go out and stomp on people’s right to free association or other civil rights. The question is whether our culture should advantage the homosexual relation above other kinds of relating and place it on the same level as the bonded heterosexual couple. Given the reality of what homosexuality is, I don’t see how we could in good conscience do so.
But our gay-friendly cultural leaders today are probably way smarter than all those old dead religious men and women from so long ago. I mean look at all our technology!
Amphilpolis: I guess I didn’t do a good job forwarding my opinion against redefining marriage. I used the quote from Ms. Isaacson to show that she felt comfortable pointing out that hetersexual people do not treat marriage as a sacred enough institution that it is hetersexuals who threaten the institution. I found that striking expecially use of the word “sacred”.
I agree that pointing out problems with heterosexual marriage does not justify redefining it.
@terbreugghen
Why does religion do that? Religion can do anything it wants. Why would a religious group take a position on homosexuality? The answer is for the same reason it took a position on other forms of social behavior. Protection of the health of the group by promotion of standards of behavior like avoiding certain foods (Trichinosis with Pork) and certain destructive behaviors. The reality is that homosexual behaviors are undeniably destructive, and this has long been known even into ancient times. Even the enthusiastic ancient Greeks had their reservations about it.
no problem with the general notion that religion can do anything it wants in the realm of “taking positions” — but don’t confuse or conflate religious proscription with state proscription; has religion taken any position on using a cell phone while driving a vehicle? if not, why not? it kills people every day … “undeniably destructive” as you would say. If religion does take a position on it, is it your contention that, ipso facto, the state must adopt religion’s position into law?
TO: ProgMeister
RE: Religion and Morals and Law, Oh My!
I think you’re misconscrewing the concept of Law here. And from whence Law comes.
All laws are based on our collective understanding of morals and ethics. What we think is ‘unethical’ or ‘immoral’ is generally outlawed.
For example….murder. Or human sacrifice of the corporal form. Theft is another example. Lying, at least under oath. I could go on and on. And you know it…..
We, as a society, tend to agree that all of these are wrong, WRONG, WRONG! However, there are individuals, and even some groups that are just fine with these ideas; Satanists, totalitarians, hypocrites, etc., etc., etc. But there are not in the majority, at least not at present.
The point being that because some religious groups, and that includes human secularists, think something is good, we, as a society might not agree. Therefore, we proscribe such actions by passing laws against such activities. But the point remains…..the laws we pass are based on our sense of morals. And many of us derive our sense of morals from our religious worldview.
Hence, a Roman Catholic might think that abortion is a mortal sin. While a Presbyterian may not agree. While a Satanist might argue to give the unwanted kids to them……and a [Hannibal the] cannibal would likely agree.
In our legislature and courts we try to hammer out our differences into some form of Law. But, still and all, it is our sense of what is right and what is wrong that is the driving force behind such Laws.
So, bottom line to your rather simplesque question….
….no, just because SOME religion wants something done, doesn’t mean it should be done. It’s MUCH MORE COMPLICATED than your simplistic query. And I think YOU KNEW THIS.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Those who would treat politics and morality apart will never understand the one or the other. -- John, Viscount Morley of Blackburn]
TO: Amphipolis
RE: Sorry Back at Ya
My reply to you on this has become ‘disappeared’.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Another one, bites the dust!]
Pajamas Media, a premier conservative site, featuring an article in favor of homosexual “rights” and an advertisement for a Michael Moore movie under the legend, “Visit Our Advertisers.” This is all a joke, right?
If this passes, then plain decent folk should choose ANOTHER word to mean the life-long bond of husband and wife, from which children are created and best raised.
A society which has no word for what marriage has always meant, is a sick, sick society.
TO: J.E.Rendini
RE: [OT] Jokes, Anyone?
Leave it to a ‘Progressive’ to misunderstand equal opportunity.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. Be advised, not every blog is operated like Daily Kos.
P.P.S. That isn’t Michael Moore in the ad. Only the suggested form….and the movie is a ‘cannibal’ movie, i.e., a send-up of Michael Moore.
@Chuck Pelto
I think you’re misconscrewing the concept of Law here. And from whence Law comes.
lol … I’m not “misconscrewing” anything, Chuck, and have quite a firm grip on jurisprudence
All laws are based on our collective understanding of morals and ethics. What we think is ‘unethical’ or ‘immoral’ is generally outlawed.
sometimes it is outlawed; more often it is actually left to conscience and to various agents/institutions of social control: church, family, school, morals, ethics, custom, taboo, tradition, etc; the law tends to capture only the outer edge — the extremes — of human conduct; and don’t forget, the vast majority of the law has nothing to do with criminality, morality or ethics. And whenever the law ventures into the domain of morality and ethics, it quickly gets into trouble. That trouble should be particularly evident today: the nation is on the brink of economic collapse and there are people across America still fussing over the structure and formalities of gay relationships.
We, as a society, tend to agree that all of these are wrong, WRONG, WRONG! However, there are individuals, and even some groups that are just fine with these ideas; Satanists, totalitarians, hypocrites, etc., etc., etc. But there are not in the majority, at least not at present.
we do not have a legal system predicated simply on majority rule; if you think Justice Anthony Kennedy was a Satanist, totalitarian or hypocrite when he penned the majority opinion in Lawrence v. Texas, such is your privilege; personally, I think he demonstrated a clear, lucid understanding of our 14th Amendment to the Constitution. The difference between liberals and conservatives — in broad stroke — is that liberals are quite happy to let you live your own life according to your own values while conservatives are forever trying to use the coercion of law so that certain people cannot do so; ironically, you tend at the very same time to make much of “getting government off our backs”
The point being that because some religious groups, and that includes human secularists, think something is good, we, as a society might not agree. Therefore, we proscribe such actions by passing laws against such activities. But the point remains…..the laws we pass are based on our sense of morals. And many of us derive our sense of morals from our religious worldview.
yes, that was my point … and that’s not the fundamental understanding of our jurisprudence; believe it or not, it’s possible for A and B to disagree on something without a law being passed
In our legislature and courts we try to hammer out our differences into some form of Law. But, still and all, it is our sense of what is right and what is wrong that is the driving force behind such Laws.
indeed we do; but again, not all differences can or should be reconciled in law and it is foolish to make any such efforts
no, just because SOME religion wants something done, doesn’t mean it should be done. It’s MUCH MORE COMPLICATED than your simplistic query. And I think YOU KNEW THIS.
you’re being disingenuous here; my comments and rhetorical question were posited in response to someone who quite clearly believes that his own personal religious and moral standards vis-a-vis homosexuality DO form a proper and adequate foundation for legislation
under your jurisprudential logic, if there were a homosexual majority in a given jurisdiction, it would be perfectly proper and just for it to pass laws banning heterosexual marriage, requiring citizen participation in daily acts of sodomy, and so on … clearly that doesn’t work, and just as clearly your vision of what a heterosexual majority can impose doesn’t work either … not in this nation, anyway; in Iran, they have no problem with it. In the United States, we begin with the assumption of liberty and we only allow the law a limited sphere of authority to limit that liberty … as a putative conservative, one would think you would easily and readily not only grasp but embrace the concept.
TO: ProgMeister
RE: Really?
As much of a grip as you have on statistics and evidence, I suppose. As demonstrated down the hall from here a few days ago.
We’ll see about that. More to follow tomorrow….
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Prevaricator, n., A liar in the larval form.]
“wassat there fella? say again …. maybe next time it’ll make some sense … and how do you know single people are “hard working?” … do you have to work hard to get a tax deduction?”
Exactly!!! Just how you knew gay people are hard working and deserve it.
“Regarding the democracy complaint: Um, we don’t live in a democracy. We live in a Republic. We don’t vote directly. We elect representatives to do most of that. Democracy just makes a mess. The more democratic our Republic becomes, the more of a mess it becomes. That’s why certain populist junk gets overturned. It’s our safeguard against mob rule.”
Thanks Mark, I didn’t mean to get into specifics of Republics or democracies of the world. It’s ok to have safe guards against mob rule it’s another thing to completely disregard the majority and redefine things into law for the minority. That’s called arrogant elitism and I hope those judges get hit with something to knock them back into their senses.
Normally, I ‘ve agreed with Chuck’s postings, but I have to side with Prog on this last posting. Fairly well-reasoned. I do disagree on the sweeping generalization of the difference between conservatives and liberals. Both tend toward live-and-let-live, until you get to the extremes. At that point, they both clamp down.
Hard-righties get radical on things like gay marriage and abortion. Hard-lefties get extreme on animal rights, environment, anti-war, etc…. Lefties are the worst when it comes to dissension. Conservatives generally, by definition, represent the status quo. Liberals are the insurgents, and such cannot generally tolerate opposing voices. It’s too mortal a threat to their cause, as they lack overall support.
@Chuck Pelto
As much of a grip as you have on statistics and evidence, I suppose. As demonstrated down the hall from here a few days ago.
We’ll see about that. More to follow tomorrow.
ah … so you’re going to Palinize the discussion … ok, go bone up on whatever it is you don’t know today and won’t know a hell of a lot about tomorrow either … if you need a jurisprudence biblio, lemme know
“under your jurisprudential logic, if there were a homosexual majority in a given jurisdiction, it would be perfectly proper and just for it to pass laws banning heterosexual marriage,”
Yes, but think a lot of things would have slowed down by then. Just try to imagine that society. lol
TO: All
RE: More ProgMeister Prevarication
Notice the effort to change the subject.
In debate, this does not win anything.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The field behind rhetoric is oft mined with equivocation....and obfuscation.]
P.S. This is especially true amongst ‘progressives’.
Thanks to all the folks who have posted comments. You seem to have your end of the conversation well in hand, and don’t need much comment from me on those points.
However, I haven’t seen much about the question I think is central here. Whatever you might feel about judicial activism and the courts, would that change if the voters (as seems likely) were to uphold the court’s opinion, ratifying it by rejecting Prop. 8?
You can certainly argue that the voters might be wrong (and it looks to me like many of you would feel that way). But isn’t that what a democracy is ultimately supposed to be about — letting the voters decide? And if they decide that the constitution shouldn’t be amended to prohibit same-sex marriage, isn’t that the ultimate way that laws should be decided in a democracy? If the court was ahead of the voters, then they will have the chance to tell it so. But it seems more likely to me that what they will be telling the court is that its decision was the right one.
ProgMeister: You said that the vast majority of the law has nothing to do with criminality, morality or ethics. And whenever the law ventures into the domain of morality and ethics, it quickly gets into trouble.
To say that the law does not base itself on morals, ethics, customs, taboos, and traditions is disingenuous and you haven’t looked at the front of the Supreme Court with Moses and the ten commandments resplendent on the building. I hate to break it to you but much of our law is based on Judeo Christian principles much as some hate that fact and would like to change it.
What is the value of law without justice and mercy and how can one practice justice and mercy without morals, ethics etc.
Let’s get back to whether we should redefine marriage which is what we are talking about here. Most who oppose marriage being redefined are not interested in forcing homosexuals to practice heterosexual sex and your argument is bogus. Are you going anywhere with this argument? And your being sly bringing Iran into the stew knowing that homosexuality in Iran is punishable by death as is adultery. Although clever it’s a cheap trick and your being transparent.
So on the one hand you argue that the law is dispassionate relying on neither ethics or morals which only muddy the law and yet you are trying to win your argument by appealing to our emotions as comparing opponents arguing against redefining marriage to Iran or trying to show how shallow we are when the financial market sky is falling and silly us, here we are worrying about nothing. Redefining marriage as being other than one man and one woman is a big deal and deserves full and open debate.
Marriage is not just a contract for the benefit of adults. It is an intimate covenant for the benefit of children that result naturally from that covenant.
Mom, Dad, Kids. That’s the organic way. That’s the natural family. That’s the meaning of marriage.
What is diverse about 2 dads? Why do they exclude woman? What is diverse about 2 moms? It excludes man. Mom mom couples are dad-ophobic.
True marriage is inherently diverse because it includes man and woman. Resist undiverse marriages. Resist JUDICIAL TYRANNY! Restore PROP 22 where they can see it. YES ON PROP 8!
“Did David block my comments yesterday? I cannot prove it in a court of law.”
Wouldn’t matter anyway. I checked with an attorney and deleting a post is not grounds for a civil suit. Yes, my civil rights have been violated, but there are no damages there, because the right to post has NOT been damaged, since I can go elsewhere and post.
I was told that A lawfare campaign would quickly get into the 7 figure range, not counting the counter-suits. Not being upset enough to spend my children’s AND grandchildren’s inheritance, I came up with another plan.
It seems that Congress re-did the Internet laws a few years ago and extended some MSM rights to the Internet. One of which was a blog editor has the same right to screen posts as a print editor has to toss letters in the trash. So if the PJM chooses to emulate the MSM, that is their right. One we have both served to protect. My attorney wasn’t sure if PJM being a distributed network makes any difference. It would be like having a letter to the editor sent to a Miami paper getting posted in Dallas and Seattle as well as Soiux Falls and Berlin. The Lawfare possibilities arose from the fact that when an editor in San Francisco trashes a letter that the Editor in Nashville might have ran, that editor would be stripping the Nashville editor of their 1st amendment rights, or at least that would have been the argument.
We will have the last laugh, since blogs that imitate the MSM will have the same problems as the MSM. It’s the message, NOT the medium.
Part of the information revolution was that modern society expects to interact with their entertainment. That is why computer games generate a LOT more income then Movies. It is also why the internet is replacing “old” media. Today’s society is not satisfied with sitting on the couch being spoon fed selected bits of data from self styled ‘experts’.
The only real expert in the 21st century is Google, and you have to be careful using that.
Sorry, but I don’t see why it should be an issue if same-sex couples wish to marry. Who cares? They’re not hurting anyone. Love and let love.
@Lynn
ProgMeister: You said that the vast majority of the law has nothing to do with criminality, morality or ethics. And whenever the law ventures into the domain of morality and ethics, it quickly gets into trouble.
yes, I did
To say that the law does not base itself on morals, ethics, customs, taboos, and traditions is disingenuous and you haven’t looked at the front of the Supreme Court with Moses and the ten commandments resplendent on the building. I hate to break it to you but much of our law is based on Judeo Christian principles much as some hate that fact and would like to change it.
Any chance you’re a lawyer, Lynn? Tell me what Article 9 of the UCC has to do with Judeo Christian principles? Section 109 of the Copyright statute? Section 547 of the Bankruptcy Code? [I'll stop there but it's a LONG list] Other than in some uselessly abstract and tortured sense, they have NOTHING at all do with Judeo Christian principles. They are, like most of the law, rules of reason derived from the experience of the ages.
What is the value of law without justice and mercy and how can one practice justice and mercy without morals, ethics etc.
What is justice, Lynn? Seriously, can you provide any kind of operational (or other) definition? If, hypothetically, I use the two words “economic justice” I will have 3/4 of PajamasMedia posters breathing down my back and screaming “LIBERAL PINKO !!” But, do you think it’s “just,” say, that when a male and a female perform the same work, she gets .77 of what he gets? Never mind the numbers; just stipulate to the fact for the sake of discussion and consider the question: if it is so, is it “just?” Should we have a law making it so? Does the Judeo Christian tradition require that we’re “fair” and pay the same sum for the same work? OR … should we base our law based upon purely economic principles? (what yields the highest return) or a model of settled expectations? (that’s how it’s always been and changing it now would not be fair)
I don’t know how much serious consideration you’ve ever given to the problems of jurisprudence but here’s hoping those few questions serve as an extremely truncated introduction to the complexity of the subject matter … this is just not the place for a full exploration.
Let’s get back to whether we should redefine marriage which is what we are talking about here. Most who oppose marriage being redefined are not interested in forcing homosexuals to practice heterosexual sex and your argument is bogus.
yes, perhaps (although some clearly are very interested in that) … actually, I suspect that if the topic had never come up and been heavily politicized, we could likely have tens of thousands of married gay couples living happily in America and the vast majority of heterosexuals wouldn’t even notice; most people actually have their own lives to live and couldn’t be bothered with the ultimately not-so-pressing issue of whether some Jeff and William simply live in the same house, sleep in the same bed or have a certificate of marriage in their document file.
I will readily concede that others, once they have discovered the awful truth, might be somewhere between offended and horrified … because at some level or another it is at odds with their own sense of how things ought to be. I fully believe Mark Malone when he says that gay people “creep him out.”
Now, to the critical question: in what way — if any — should the LAW involve itself in Mark’s being creeped out? Does he have a cognizable legal right to be “not creeped out” which we should enforce under color of law by saying to Jeff and William “you may not marry.” And if we do, what if Mark says, “well, I appreciate the law’s solicitude for my feelings on this marriage thing but frankly, I’m still creeped out when I see these guys holding hands in the grocery store.” Do we need a “no hand-holding in public” ordinance? A mandate for separate hand-holding aisles? separate grocery stores? separate neighborhoods? cities?
What about Jeff and William? What rights do you suppose they might have in all of this? Does the right of association mean anything? How about that Equal Protection under the law protected by Amendment XIV? Should Jeff and William even be protected by the criminal law? Or, does the offense Mark feels, assuming he is perhaps something of a pugilist, give him justification to beat the snot out of both of them every time he feels “creeped out” by visible manifestations of their homosexuality?
Let’s go back to your concern with “justice” and “mercy” … knowing a fair number of gay people reasonably well, I can tell you that there are many, many of them who, through they have developed a certain tolerance for the “way things are” along with something of a thickened social skin, experience a wide panoply of negative emotion and experience as a direct function of their sexual orientation … simply because they are who they are and have been treated “in a certain way” they experience (in varying degrees of course) isolation, anxiety, depression, and a sense that they are somehow “worth less” than people who are not gay. Put simply, they experience along with life’s normal pains an added burden occasioned by simply being WHO they are. (if you have any doubts about any of this consult the clinical research .. or get to know some gay people).
So, now I would ask you this: if a system of laws is predicated upon Judeo Christian principles and should “produce” justice and mercy in its administration, what rights do you suppose our hypothetical gay protagonists might or should have under that law? Any at all? Or is there a homosexuality exception based, perhaps, upon the ancient equitable principle that those with unclean hands may be denied certain legal privileges because we have long deemed that to be a salutary principle and that to be gay is to have unclean hands, ipso facto?
What of the longstanding principles enshrined in the founding documents of our nation that all are created equal? and entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? These things have some meaning in your jurisprudence? I will assume they do since I think — one way or another — that you have told me that they do. How then does a just legal system reconcile that “creeped out feeling” with the legitimate interests of those who are creating the creepiness, however unintentionally? Does Mark have a superior claim to his comfort? If so, upon what jurisprudential principle? Do Jeff and William have superior claims? How should we decide? Do we in fact HAVE to decide at all?
Does there not exist the very real possibility that it is an inherent fact of public life … that people live in communities and do what they do with others in groups … that ultimately nobody gets to be comfortable at all times in all places? That the law, as a distinctly human institution, is fundamentally incapable of accommodating all interests … AND that accordingly, the cardinal rule is The Golden Rule rather than a legal rule, which implies a social imperative that none among us has right or authority to deprive another of his or her liberty?
Are you going anywhere with this argument? And your being sly bringing Iran into the stew knowing that homosexuality in Iran is punishable by death as is adultery. Although clever it’s a cheap trick and your being transparent.
Nothing cheap or sly about it at all; Iran has an entirely different set of jurisprudential predicates informing their law and the point is that we do not live in Iran … we live in America, and in America our history and tradition require a wholly different matrix of social and legal outcomes. I should think in a forum such as this, seemingly comprised of many American exceptionalists, that the point would be readily understood and easily accepted.
Redefining marriage as being other than one man and one woman is a big deal and deserves full and open debate.
and you now have a small portion of my contribution to that discussion; in closing, I would respectfully suggest to you that this is all only a “big deal” if in your world view there is room for the notion that there is a “right” way to live AND that it can be appropriate for any person or group to coercively require that others subscribe to your own orthodoxy, oblivious to the fact that others bring their own viewpoint to the social world we share.
“They are, like most of the law, rules of reason derived from the experience of the ages.”
Oh really? Man WTF you talking about?. You keep babbling none sense. Using legal terms is not helping anyone. Rules of reason ha? Or is that logic and is there a difference?
Like, a child rapist gets out of jail in 5 years and someone smoking marijuana serves 10? These are the rules of reason you are talking about? Like, a male has to serve 18 years labor but the female doesn’t?
“and you now have a small portion of my contribution to that discussion; in closing, I would respectfully suggest to you that this is all only a “big deal” if in your world view there is room for the notion that there is a “right” way to live AND that it can be appropriate for any person or group to coercively require that others subscribe to your own orthodoxy, oblivious to the fact that others bring their own viewpoint to the social world we share.”
You can’t put things into one or two sentences. You must not understand what you are talking about yourself.
Your closing statement is where you are hypocritical Progmeister. If others don’t have to subscribe to my viewpoint then why should I subscribe to theirs? Why are you defining things for me. Never mind that; REDEFINE things that I’ve defined. I don’t want you to do that. You should go get your own definition and suck on it for a while.
“AND that accordingly, the cardinal rule is The Golden Rule rather than a legal rule, which implies a social imperative that none among us has right or authority to deprive another of his or her liberty?”
Really, that’s not what the baby being aborted was screaming into the darkness with no sound refraction. Except, just maybe, there is a supreme being that could have heard it.
Some people would like to make pornographic images of girls without hurting them physically.
Did you know you are being forced to pay taxes? But again you are not being hurt physically in a direct manner.
Do you catch the drift?
“But, do you think it’s “just,” say, that when a male and a female perform the same work, she gets .77 of what he gets? ”
Same work; same amount of hours; same amount of experience; same amount; bla bla bla. Realistically; that’s not going to involve most people. Do you understand what you are writing or just writing for the sake of writing with your exceptional english language skills.
Next; you are going to tell me how all the gays get married when in fact most don’t. That’s in places that it has been legalized.
Again, Knight13, I have to go with “Prog” on this one. It was well-reasoned. It was in English, my native tongue. I had no problem. It was understandable. Okay, I’m being a bit snotty, here, but your reaction was highly emotional and a bit abusive.
Yes, the laws are based on certain concepts. It doesn’t mean in actuality that people don’t screw it up.
As far as your protestations of things like abortion, please prove to me when that person actually is a person. To me, it’s when its heart starts beating.
As to the child being photographed, there is direct evidence of harm. We protect our children. Besides, who believes that the guy is “just gonna take a few pictures”.
Paying taxes is not being hurt, unless there is gross inequity in the system. With taxes, we buy civilization.
Your simple arguments fail in the inspection. Uh, I can’t believe I’m defending a lawyer. The horror!
I do refer everyone back to my first post about it simply comes down to legal rights. Secular marriage is not Holy Matrimony. There’s nothing sacred about secular marriage. It is simply a legal process to establish legal rights. If you can wrap your head around that, then the whole debate goes away.
ProgMeister:
Your arguments about justice, etc. hinge on your faulty assumption that a same sex couple is the same as a multi-sex couple. The two are not at all the same, and therefore it is entirely appropriate and necessary to treat them differently.
This is the crux of the argument, the fact you strive to ignore.
ProgMeister, it’s pretty clear your legal code recitations are intended to intellectually intimidate rather than elucidate. But to respond in kind:
Anglo (British descendant, such as American) common law has its basis in continuity and precedent. Like most laws concerning borrowing, or valuation of borrowed assets, collateral, and derivates, Article 9 of the UCC and Section 547 of the Bankruptcy code originate in the Judeo-Christian principles relating to the competition between mercy and justice with regards to establishing borrowers and lenders rights — these rights originate in Medieval Judeo-Christian views on usury.
No, Congress was not quoting scripture during debates over these laws, but the foundation of these laws in common law, from ancient British borrowing laws that led to horrific debtor’s prisons in the name of justice for the lender, and late 19th century American bankruptcy provisions that were pushed by Mainline protestant moralists (the decendants of Abolitionists, who held that personal debt of a certain level is a form of involutary servitude or slavery). These provisions, whether you admit it or not, have their history, basis, and continual impetus for improvement in Judeo-Christian ideals. Meanwhile, since you like bringing up Iran, consider their private lending and borrowing provisions –the lack of any kind of financial market is directly based on Islamic law (usury) that grossly favors the borrower over the lender. It’s a fairly stark example of what non-Judeo-Christian based law results in.
Section 109 of the Copyright statute, on the other hand, first sale provision, has little or no moral component to it, and hence Judeo-Christian tradition would consider it a prudential matter that has little or no moral component –but then, it’s not a very controversial bit of law is it, so I’d say you threw it in as a distraction rather than an argument.
Meanwhile the entirety of your “small portion” seems to be based on a simplistic belief similar to “Battlecat’s:” if two people want to get together and call what they do marriage, that just affects them so what’s it to you and the rest of society?
It’s an argument that only holds water if the two people are on a remote desert island and have no contact with the rest of society –otherwise, society does indeed have an interest in the matter, just as it does in the matter of two consenting adults who just happen to be siblings getting married, and just as it does in the matter of sodomy, whatever the valid jurisdiction of the matter decided by the Supreme Court.
ProgMeister: I’ll leave out the first law because it might make you feel “creepy”. But the second you might find palatable: And love thy neighbor as thyself. This law in one short sweet sentence covers many laws.
Most laws are used to prevent people from harming other people when they don’t follow the one above law (yes financial harm too). You may think this principle is tortured or abstract but to me it is quite simple and a good basis for law and justice. In fact, the basis of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is that we are endowed by our CREATOR with certain unalienable rights: Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Oh you brought that up, sorry. You must hate that word Creator, such a pesky thing.
You want me to tell you what justice is? Look it up in the dictionary. I’ll stand by that meaning but you might not because it relates to morals, ethics, righteousness etc.
I would like to remind you that the pursuit of happiness is not a guarantee that you will be happy or that what makes you or what you think would make you happy is legal. In fact many people get exhausted pursuing happiness while never achieving it. I would also like to point out to you that all the emotional turmoil you attribute to being “gay” is not exclusive to the homosexual community. Implying that those who are against the redefinition of marriage as the cause of their torment is completely untrue but I’ll admit a very clever argument.
Now (yawn) back to the basic argument as to whether marriage should be redefined to include two men or two women etc. Marriage is defined as one man and one woman joining together in matrimony and it so happens that the civil authorities happened to agree that it IS a good thing and decided to give these marriages legal standing. As I said before in my very first post: Homosexual couples who wish to have certain legal rights and protections under civil law for their relationship should fight for them. To get those rights and protections by redefining marriage is NOT the answer. Marriage between one man and one woman is unique, not the same as any other and should not be redefined to include a man and a man, a woman and a woman, or any other combination.
And since when did “marriage” guarantee its’ participants that it would be the “right” way to live? It might lead to the “ideal” way for a man and woman to live and raise children if they decide to have them. I am not getting why you are implying that this is forcing a certain lifestyle or legal or religious commitment choice on men and woman.
Marc I’ll be back to abuse you too.:P
“Your simple arguments fail in the inspection. Uh, I can’t believe I’m defending a lawyer. The horror! ”
I know lawyer that are great people and make a lot of sense. This one in particular is annoying as heck and half the time writes rubish.
Marc I’ll be back to abuse you too.:P
“Your simple arguments fail in the inspection. Uh, I can’t believe I’m defending a lawyer. The horror! ”
I know lawyer that are great people and make a lot of sense. This one in particular is annoying as heck and half the time writes rubish.
Homosexuality is not so much an alternate lifestyle as it is a profit center. When gays found themselves sufficiently concentrated, a revenue generating industry arose generating sufficient revenue to perpetuate and enlarge its customer base. And that now – organized customer base fought back against the forces that concentrated them in the first place. Carved out their niche in society, so to speak.
This doesn’t help mommy and daddy that want grandchildren. This reality makes itself felt at church. Work it out, folks. Try not to wreak it for the rest of us.
TO: All
RE: Is David Back?
It’s been over an hour since I replied to ProgMeister’s commnet @ Sep 25, 2008 – 2:16 pm but it doesn’t seem to have appeared here yet.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. I wonder if THIS comment will appear…..
TO: All
RE: Soooo…
….I guess David, or whomever, didn’t care for my pointing out some blatantly obvious facts to ProgMeister. Something to do with ‘censorship’, I suppose.
What should we do about this. As nothing I said was particularly offensive, except to those who take offense at reality.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out.]
TO: All
RE: The Lawyer’s Approach
I recall the title of this thread….
…that Homosexual Marriage is either (1) Evolution or (2) Revolution.
And I’m reminded of how lawyers try to constrain the discussion to what they would like the general public to perceive. It’s like putting someone in a box, giving them a quiz and the answers are as pejorative as most political polls conducted by the WaPo (see article in another part of this blogsite).
Here, we’re given two options. When, in reality, there are more than two. I propose a third option….
…that Homosexual Marriage is (3) devolution; taking men back to a more ‘base’ level of development….all sex and no responsibility.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Welcome to the 'revolution'.]
TO: All
RE: Censorship
In the response to ProgMeister, I mentioned an acronym that I suspect is taboo in discussions of homosexuality. Look at your keyboard and shift left, one from each of the following keys…JOB. [Note: How very 'odd'. As he had 'problems' in this venue as well.]
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[What they are telling you can be important. What they are NOT telling you can be vital. -- CBPelto]
“As far as your protestations of things like abortion, please prove to me when that person actually is a person. To me, it’s when its heart starts beating.”
Than is a nice perspective and too bad the logic of the laws do not share that with you. You can’t prove to me that you are a person!! What an illogical question. So, let’s look at what the laws are up to;
The unborn has no survival capabilities and hence the mother is the owner of her body she get’s to decide the poor little buggers fate. By this logic; a 2 year old is dependent on an outside source for survival but we can’t kill 2 year old humans because it’s murder and murder is against the law.
“As to the child being photographed, there is direct evidence of harm. We protect our children. Besides, who believes that the guy is “just gonna take a few pictures”.”
There is no direct evidence of harm. The child could be put in nice kinky clothes and taken photographs of. No physical damage and creepy is not a part of laws according to your lawyer you seem to agree with. We sure do protect our children when it suits the liberal mind to do so. Otherwise, we abort children, put then in unsafe hands of someone in child care and other exposures. I don’t believe they will all have the best intentions for the kids.
“Paying taxes is not being hurt, unless there is gross inequity in the system. With taxes, we buy civilization.”
We? Who you and whom? Paying taxes when I purchase stuff is reasonable. By purchasing; I’ve agreed to the price and willing to pay the taxes. This way if it is too high then I have the choice of not buying and saving my money. The income tax on the other hand does not ask if you want to purchase or not. You don’t have a choice hence my reply to the liberty question. Plus, those unfortunate ones that don’t work are exempt. So, it is fair for me to pay for the others? Yes, why not; can spare some money for the well being of others. On top of that; I have to pay property tax on the house that I worked hard to purchase. I’ve payed the taxes for the property. Now, I don’t have the choice of not paying taxes again because I literally have to occupy space!!! The property doesn’t belong to someone then I must be leasing it from the people and myself. So, we have come to the agreement of taxing each other to death!!! Especially those that work hard. lol Did the population get to vote on these issues? Of course our representatives know what’s best for us. They do a lot of good but at times they get vicious with the prices. There some sort of gross inequity and unfairness in the system.
TO: Knight13
RE: Yeah….
…and God decides HER ‘fate’. And, as I understand it, His decision is ‘final’.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out...]
P.S. I have no fear for the little children murdered by their mothers. I’m certain that He can take care of them.
However, I do have concerns for the fate of those who participated in such murders. I’m equally certain that He can take care of THEM as well…..
Hey, Knights. I’m actually not in complete disagreement with you. I was merely disagreeing with a couple details.
Abortion – I wasn’t saying prove to me you are a person. I said prove to me at what point a fetus becomes a person. I favor a rule that is consistent. You’re dead when we can’t your heart re-started, and you’re alive when your heart starts.
Child porn – girls who are exploited like that suffer tremndous damage for years. This has been proven. They almost always get screwed up in their sex lives. A woman’s sexuality is her power. When she’s raped, it takes that away. Any exploitation of children does the same thing. It is indefensible, even for argument’s sake.
Taxes – You vote directly on property taxes, don’t you? Income tax is by nature inequitable, so a lot of mischief goes on there. ‘Twere better did we find a way to pay for all the things we need government to do. Myself, I’m for scaling government back as much as possible. If your tax money were used very wisely, would you mind paying taxes? Not me. That’s the crux of the issue. Pretty much, we can count on government to screw it up.
Gotta go watch the debates, even if I think it’ll be a waste of time. Who knows, there might be some decent theater there.
@Knights13 wrote:
There is no direct evidence of harm. The child could be put in nice kinky clothes and taken photographs of. No physical damage and creepy is not a part of laws according to your lawyer you seem to agree with.
ProgMeister replies:
Let me make this perfectly clear, sir: you are free to criticize my positions all day long; you are not free to deliberately characterize my remarks inaccurately nor are you free to attribute comments to me which I have not made. You’ve stepped up over the line here.
You have been warned.
TO: ProgMeister
RE: Miss Attribution?
“….you are not free to deliberately characterize my remarks inaccurately nor are you free to attribute comments to me which I have not made.” — ProgMeister
Please point out where he has put words in your ‘mouth’.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. I bring that up because you have a tendency to misrepresent things….as proven on this blog-site before…..
TO: All
RE: Homosexuals and the State, Together At Last
An item of interest in this thread is that vis-a-vis the so-called ‘separation of church and state’ is once more being misconscrewed.
In reality, the State has always envied the ‘church’ and in such envy has desired to usurp the church’s place in the hearts of men.
The Founding Fathers establishment clause was NOT to prevent people from worshiping God as they saw fit. However, the miscreants who are running government these days and the atheists who support them, are trying, once again with this piece of legalese, to say that the State is God.
How so?
By redefining the relationship between men, women and God. Degrading that relationship by saying it can be between man, man and God. Or woman, woman and God. However, you will not find any such relationship in that old ‘reference’ Book; except in the negative form. That’s Old and New parts.
The atheists don’t care for that. Neither do the homosexuals. And the Statists are in cahoots with them, as it improves their authority.
Still and all, God laughs at them. And we who recognize His authority shake our heads and give warnings that, in the long run, these people are going to regret this business.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The kings of the Earth rise up;
And the rulers take counsel together;
Against the Lord...... -- Psalm 2 and Handel's Messiah]
P.S. I’m certain that a lot of people who read this don’t appreciate my perspective. However, I ask you….
….if you experienced things that theretofore you didn’t think couldn’t POSSIBLY happen…..would you change your ‘understanding’?
@tom cuddihy
It’s an argument that only holds water if the two people are on a remote desert island and have no contact with the rest of society –otherwise, society does indeed have an interest in the matter, just as it does in the matter of two consenting adults who just happen to be siblings getting married, and just as it does in the matter of sodomy, whatever the valid jurisdiction of the matter decided by the Supreme Court.
per your standard, “society” almost certainly has a continuing and perpetual “interest” in everything; I do not deny that reality but we long ago decided as a nation that the authority of the state to legislate and intrude into the lives of citizens is limited …
It’s ironic that the “liberal” here is compelled to remind the “conservatives” here that there are bounds to state power; your ongoing problem, and that of your brethren of kindred spirit, is in failing to draw the distinction between state and society. Put simply, the state does not always have the authority to do what society wishes it would. Such was the plan of our founders and it is the very plan which, inter alia, permits each of us to enjoy the freedom and liberty that we do
one more thing; you wrote:
No, Congress was not quoting scripture during debates over these laws, but the foundation of these laws in common law, from ancient British borrowing laws that led to horrific debtor’s prisons in the name of justice for the lender, and late 19th century American bankruptcy provisions that were pushed by Mainline protestant moralists (the decendants of Abolitionists, who held that personal debt of a certain level is a form of involutary servitude or slavery). These provisions, whether you admit it or not, have their history, basis, and continual impetus for improvement in Judeo-Christian ideals.
so, in other words, previously horrific laws founded upon Judeo-Christian ideals have now become less horrific laws founded upon Judeo-Christian ideals? Is this to imply that there is a certain elasticity to “Judeo-Christian ideals?” That our understanding of those ideals can and should shift over time and with changes in circumstances? While I believe that to be a salutary principle of jurisprudence, I have been repeatedly instructed by the proponents of a Christian jurisprudence that any such elasticity constitutes wholly unprincipled, totally unacceptable and entirely abhorrent moral relativism. Are you quite sure this is where you want to stand?
Let’s take my point from a different angle, and perhaps it will make sense to the religious here (of whom I am one).
Let’s get the government out of the marriage business entirely. Have them re-label all their secular marriages as civil unions. Then all marriages would have to go through churches.
Do you see now what I mean about the difference between secular marriage and Holy Matrimony?
@ProgMeister
” the state does not always have the authority to do what society wishes it would. Such was the plan of our founders and it is the very plan which, inter alia, permits each of us to enjoy the freedom and liberty that we do.”
Yes, this is a correct observation, but it misses the point. The question is not whether we are free to do as we wish, the question is whether the state has an obligation to advantage all choices equally in the name of fairness, civil rights, and equality under the law. I don’t believe anyone in their right mind would think it does. this is not about preventing anyone from living together or otherwise enjoying the direct benefits of interpersonal relationships. It IS, however, about drawing meaningful and wise limits to behaviors the state hopes to encourage and those it does not.
The religious question, I think, has been clearly sorted out above.
Your challenge about moral relativism is a false dilemma. Religious thinkers hold that truth is revealed over time according to a plan. And I guess when it becomes obvious to everyone that God’s changed His mind and now wants the world to honor homosexual behaviors as equivalent to traditional sacramental marriage, the religious will have no option but to agree. Until then, though. . . .
Moral relativism is not abhorrent, it is simply logically incoherent. But it is interesting how many progressive initiatives depend upon it for justification.
@Marc Malone
Let’s get the government out of the marriage business entirely. Have them re-label all their secular marriages as civil unions. Then all marriages would have to go through churches.
I think that’s a great idea, Marc … though I suspect it might not sit well with some non-religious conservatives; one thing for sure: it will be a boon to forms designers, printers and computer programmers who will be putting MARRIED and CIVILLY UNITED check boxes on tens of thousands of forms
@ProgMeister,
so, in other words, previously horrific laws founded upon Judeo-Christian ideals have now become less horrific laws founded upon Judeo-Christian ideals? Is this to imply that there is a certain elasticity to “Judeo-Christian ideals?”
No, it’s to imply that Judeo-Christian ideals have been the impetus behind making those laws less horrific. Less horrific, still not perfect, though. The perfection of the law, as others have already stated, has already been accomplished in the personage of Christ. Your tangent about relativism is based on your above wrong inference and conclusion, so I won’t address that.
your ongoing problem, and that of your brethren of kindred spirit, is in failing to draw the distinction between state and society. Put simply, the state does not always have the authority to do what society wishes it would. Such was the plan of our founders and it is the very plan which, inter alia, permits each of us to enjoy the freedom and liberty that we do
I would submit that that is actually your problem, not mine, since what we are arguing over is whether or not an unelected, non-legislative branch of the state of California, the judiciary, has the right to fundamentally reorder society in a manner at odds with the known sweep of human history, natural law, and the morals of the vast majority of people in America and California.
@Terbreugghen
Yes, this is a correct observation, but it misses the point. The question is not whether we are free to do as we wish, the question is whether the state has an obligation to advantage all choices equally in the name of fairness, civil rights, and equality under the law. I don’t believe anyone in their right mind would think it does. this is not about preventing anyone from living together or otherwise enjoying the direct benefits of interpersonal relationships. It IS, however, about drawing meaningful and wise limits to behaviors the state hopes to encourage and those it does not.
sorry, but it is the very essence of the point: the state is limited in its authority; that is the constitutional plan, regardless of whether it makes you, me or anyone else happy on a given issue. To ask whether the state “has an obligation to advantage all choices equally in the name of fairness, civil rights, and equality” is to turn the issue upside down; to deal with a settled matter, the issue in the Lawrence case was not whether Texas should pass a law “authorizing sodomy” but rather whether Texas could, consistently with the US Constitution, enact and enforce a law criminalizing sodomy. The answer disposing of the issue has of course mooted any question of an affirmative obligation.
Regarding same-sex marriage, no, I don’t believe the state has any present legal obligation to affirm by statute the right of gay people to marry. That said, (a) I do believe that the state could legitimately do so if it chose, and (b) I do not believe a prohibition on same-sex marriage comports with the requirements imposed by Amendment XIV of the US Constitution, at a minimum. A state having once conferred a right or privilege upon one class of persons bears a high burden should it at the same time wish to deny the same right or privilege to another class. I do not think it is a burden which can be met, but that for the time being is only my opinion, needless to say.
What is troubling about your analysis is the implicit paternalism of it, the notion that mere mortals in a legislature are at complete liberty to draw “meaningful and wise limits to behaviors the state hopes to encourage and those it does not.” I do not mean to suggest that legislatures are devoid of authority to regulate conduct, only that when they do, it is absolutely required that they do so consistently with the US Constitution (as well as the state’s own constitution). To be sure, historically, we have had our problems with that requirement; we were slow to come to grips with slavery, voting rights, racial separatism and other issues which at least some of us would have thought readily capable of appropriate adjudication. But there ‘ya go: it isn’t always so.
Your challenge about moral relativism is a false dilemma. Religious thinkers hold that truth is revealed over time according to a plan. And I guess when it becomes obvious to everyone that God’s changed His mind and now wants the world to honor homosexual behaviors as equivalent to traditional sacramental marriage, the religious will have no option but to agree. Until then, though. . . .
With all due respect to your religious beliefs, and full recognition of your right to embrace them, we do as of this writing continue to live in a state of secular laws, sir.
Moral relativism is not abhorrent, it is simply logically incoherent. But it is interesting how many progressive initiatives depend upon it for justification.
it is not incoherent; it simply reflects an understanding that the revelation of truth occurs along a continuum of dimensions which extend beyond the temporal dimension … and is independent of a divine plan, at least any that serious secular thinkers have been able to apprehend through the normal use of their sensoria.
Prog, this is getting scary. I keep finding myself on the same side as you, a lawyer. Oh God! I’m… I’m… changing… into… oh, God… what am I becoming? Heeelllpp meeeee!
@tom cuddihy
No, it’s to imply that Judeo-Christian ideals have been the impetus behind making those laws less horrific. Less horrific, still not perfect, though.
the laws made less horrific were not founded upon Judeo-Christian ideals?
The perfection of the law, as others have already stated, has already been accomplished in the personage of Christ. Your tangent about relativism is based on your above wrong inference and conclusion, so I won’t address that.
and I won’t address laws “perfected in the personage of Christ” other than to note that what is perfect cannot be made “less horrific” by any logic known to this observer
I would submit that that is actually your problem, not mine, since what we are arguing over is whether or not an unelected, non-legislative branch of the state of California, the judiciary, has the right to fundamentally reorder society in a manner at odds with the known sweep of human history, natural law, and the morals of the vast majority of people in America and California.
not only does it have such right, it has such obligation; and election is no prerequisite to authority
and I will guarantee that judicial review both has been and will be your friend … but not in every case
“Let me make this perfectly clear, sir: you are free to criticize my positions all day long; you are not free to deliberately characterize my remarks inaccurately nor are you free to attribute comments to me which I have not made. You’ve stepped up over the line here.
You have been warned.”
There were no characterization of your remarks inaccurately. I used your remarks in a hypothetical situation.
Just one question, followed by my answer. Say gay unions are upheld after judicial imposition, equal rights and all that; we mustn’t discriminate on the basis of sex or sexual orientation.
What prevents a pedophile from saying he’s being discriminated against on the basis of age?
Um. Nothing?
TO: Knights13
RE: ProgMeister’s Comment
I agree. Your comment extrapolated on his idea, taking it to a possible conclusion.
ProgMeister didn’t like that. So he started his usual song and dance in response. With me, down the hall from here, when he couldn’t back up his claims with factual references, he tossed the f-bomb and ran away.
With you, it looks like communicating a threat.
I asked him (above) to show where you had put words in his mouth, he has, once again, failed to back up his claim with factual information.
Typical ‘progressive’ approach to rational discussion.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Advantage, facts.....]
@SamHall
Just one question, followed by my answer. Say gay unions are upheld after judicial imposition, equal rights and all that; we mustn’t discriminate on the basis of sex or sexual orientation.
What prevents a pedophile from saying he’s being discriminated against on the basis of age?
a very clear and compelling state interest in protecting the health and welfare of children prevents it
@Chuck Pelto
ProgMeister didn’t like that. So he started his usual song and dance in response. With me, down the hall from here, when he couldn’t back up his claims with factual references, he tossed the f-bomb and ran away.
Chuck, let me save you some time: you’re a demagogue and add nothing to the conversation so, other than this, I will not be responding to your comments unless and until I see some utility in doing so.
Re:Chuck Pelto,
“…and God decides HER ‘fate’. And, as I undestand it, His decision is ‘final’.
It is precisely what i believe. The great WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT terrifies me.
As for gay marriage: Most definitely is a revolution-without a doubt….enough said.
TO: All
RE: ProgMeister & Ignorance
I wonder if ProgMeister has a dictionary handy. Maybe should look at it now and then.
RE: ProgMeister & Projection
’nuff said.
RE: ProgMeister & Facts
Only pointing out a serious lack of factual information on the part of ProgMeister regarding these ‘conversations’. I think that pointing that out adds a LOT to such discussion. Something along the lines of pointing out that ProgMeister either (1) doesn’t know what he’s talking about or (2) much, much worse.
RE: ProgMeister and a Monty Python Moment
Can you say…..”Run away!? I knew you could…..
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out....]
@Progmeister:
My statement about God changing his mind was meant to speak only to those who derive their objection to gay marriage from religious texts. I think the issue can be argued without reference to God.
The current definition of marriage discriminates on the basis of sex, not sexual orientation. No protected “class” of people is being prevented from marrying. In fact the legal heterosexual marriages of gays and lesbians are proof that they have not been discriminated against on the basis of their orientation. (And the children from such unions are proof of the arbitary nature of the entire idea of sexual orientation.)
But back to sex discrimination. Apparently our culture thinks some sex discrimination is a good thing. When you succeed in eliminating all the other public accomodations that discriminate on the basis of sex like restrooms, military service barracks, sex segregated athletic events, women’s colleges that take federal funding, and public high school locker rooms, among a myriad of others, then I could be convinced we’re serious enough to revisit the issue of marriage.
As an aside I noticed that you advanced some paternalism of your own when you cited the state’s interest in protecting children from pedophiles. So I guess paternalism is OK if you like it?
Terrbreugghen, sex segregation is not sex discrimination. Rather, it is simply a practical matter. Men often treat women as prey. They cannot control their urges very well, if they are sharing a showerroom with women. At the least, they leer. Women don’t want to be always conscious of their vulnerability.
Separate sports is also a practical matter. Men are generally at least 50% heavier than women. They are also 40% muscle to a woman’s 25%. That means they are at least twice as strong as women. There are other physiological differences.
Title IX money is realistic. Men are generally more interested in sports than women, but are not so keen on watching women play, other than for sexual tittillation. So, women cannot bring in as much money for their sporting events, so the money gets shared a bit, allowing women to also have competitive activities.
I can’t decide if you really didn’t understand this, or whether this was an intentional red herring. Your lack of discrimination against sexual orientation is also just plain bogus. It’s a creed. Their creed says they prefer their own gender and wish to legally co-habitate and enjoy the benefits of legal marriage. As long as it hurts no one else, to me it’s no problem.
Maybe, it’s as I stated earlier, we should have the State get out of the marriage business entirely, and just have civil unions?
@Terbreugghen:
No protected “class” of people is being prevented from marrying. In fact the legal heterosexual marriages of gays and lesbians are proof that they have not been discriminated against on the basis of their orientation.
right … and black folk used to have their very own “personal water fountains” and “reserved seating” in the back of the bus
(And the children from such unions are proof of the arbitary nature of the entire idea of sexual orientation.)
hey, T …. don’t sweat it: your kids and grandkids aren’t going to “choose gay” if same-sex marriage is legalized (unless of course they’re already gay); it doesn’t work that way … ask Dick Cheney
TO: Terbreugghen
RE: Yeah
The truth of the matter is…
On the other hand, if the homosexuals adopt children, they’ll probably teach them to be homosexuals too. So if you and your wife are killed before any of your children reach their majority and no one in your family takes them in, they could be adopted by homosexuals…..and….well….
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. -- Proverbs]
P.S. And the obverse is true too…..
Even if Proposition 8 passes, same-sex couples in California will continue to have the right to adopt children, or to have children through in-vitro fertilization or surrogate parenthood. Initial indications are that most gay parents in this first generation of pioneers are conscientious. I worry some about the effects on kids of having four mothers or four fathers after a same-sex divorce with re-marriages of both parents. Sometimes it takes a couple of generations for the effects of these kinds of dramatic changes in social policy to become clear.
But I think that the bigger problem for society may come in the form of changing social standards for heterosexual marriage. If marriage is defined as a civil right, discussion of differences between same-sex unions and man-woman unions will often be considered to be “discriminatory” or “hate speech”. This repressive atmosphere is likely to have damaging effects on both same-sex and traditional couples.
In a New York Times article concerning the mixed experiences of married same-sex couples in Massachusetts, one gay man said that he and his husband had agreed that it was O.K. to play around because, “I think men view sex very differently than women. Men are pigs, they know that each other are pigs, so they can operate accordingly. It doesn’t mean anything.”
Traditional marriage often requires a degree of heroic self-denial, especially on the part of men whose natural inclination is to seek variety in sexual partners. Because sex between two gay men does not produce children, the possible adverse consequences of multiple sexual partners within marriage do not include production of children with more than one partner. There is no “biological” reason for married gay men to sacrifice their desire for variety just because they are married to someone they love.
A lot of young heterosexual men would find this societal standard for marriage to be enticing, even though it would be likely to hurt them down the road (not to mention their children). A societal expectation of fidelity on the part of heterosexual marriage partners also influences many unmarried heterosexual couples, especially those with children. Even the reportedly common standard among married gay men of “for the most part monogamous, but for maybe a casual three-way” would not help the children of heterosexuals in my unsophistocated low-income community if applied to their parents.
According to a 2002 study published in left-leaning Child Trends, statistically, children do best in a low-stress home where they grow up with both biological parents. Just because this is not always possible does not mean that we should not encourage this type of domestic arrangement whenever possible. We need to strengthen social support for the ideal of marital fidelity between a man and a woman – not weaken it. It is hard. Why try if no one cares?
Gay couples may be able to maintain a relatively low-stress home which is conducive to raising children even though they are not “faithful” sexually. It won’t work that way for most heterosexual couples.
Certainly we do not need to re-define marriage in order to find ways to dignify same-sex couples and to encourage the best outcomes for their children. Stretching the definition of marriage in order to accommodate same-sex couples will change expectations for heterosexuals, too. Civilization is fragile. A free society can tolerate a lot of private behaviors which it should not hold as public expectations or ideals.
Do you believe in creationism?
Do you believe God is all-powerful,omnipotent and omniscient?
If you answered yes to these questions, then logically, you must believe that God created homosexuality. If you answered no to those queries, then you believe God is flawed and not perfect. If that is the case,then you are not a christian. That would mean that Homosexuality is a choice or you don’t believe in the power of God. If it isn’t a choice and God created it, why did she create it? Why would a perfect being create something to erradicate? Out of boredom?
Do you believe God is ubiqutious? If your answer is yes, then you believe she is with everyone, including homosexuals. If God is ubiqutious, then it stands to reason that God is in all of us, including homosexuals? If you respond with a no, then you do not believe God is ubiqutious.
Why would any one who is heterosexual stand against homosexual unions? Speaking as a heterosexual male, I for one, welcome all homesexuals. Logically, this would reduce the level of competition for myself in the field of dating. Please do not respond with poorly thought out comments such as, What about the women competing with you. They would only attract other woman who are interested in homosexual relations with another woman, and ergo would not affect me. It would also reduce the risk of wasting my time trying to attract the affections of the opposite sex who are indeed homosexuals themselves; and would not be interested in my advancements.
Socialogically, all heterosexual unions as of 1970, have ended in divorce 50% of the time. That means that marriage between a man and a woman fails in half of the circumstances. Being that half of all hetero marriages end in separation(divorce.) There must be something flawed about hetero unions. What are these flaws? Is it that gays are infiltrating the marriages to cause them to stop? Is it the devil? Why do half of all marriages end in divorce?
Please tell me why homosexuals want to end the sanctity of marriage? Clearly, they want to be married, lending to the idea they want to assimilate into society. If you are against this, then what do you expect of these people? They want their domestic partner to share in their benefits, just as a hetero couple desires; how is that taking advantage of the system? The current laws prohibit homosexuals from sharing job benefits with their dependents, unless they are in a formally recognized union, but only by a few states. That is why they wanted to change the laws. Why do people oppose the peaceful and logical restructering of our legal statutes in an orderly and intelligent fashion so a small segment of society can achieve the American Dream of living together and sharing each other’s fortunes. If you are against a man sharing his medical benefits with another man, what is the justification for sharing benefits with a woman he is linked to? Isn’t that group’s finacial resources supporting someone outside of the group in either circumstance?