Frankenstein’s Monster: ObamaCare’s ‘Individual Mandate’
As the “public option” sinks slowly beneath the waves of public opposition, the “individual mandate” — a federal requirement that every American adult purchase health insurance, or pay a heavy “excise tax” (in the language of the Senate Finance Committee bill) for failing to do so — has become the linchpin of President Obama’s latest health care “plan.” Although this mandate has been heavily criticized on economic, political, and even moral grounds (in 1994 the Congressional Budget Office found it “an unprecedented form of federal action,” comparable only to the military draft, when proposed as a part of HillaryCare), the full implications of its underlying rationale have not been sufficiently appreciated — or feared.
The justification for requiring every American to buy health insurance approved and certified (and perhaps sold) by the federal government is that the uninsured — often referred to as “freeloaders” by defenders of the president’s “plan” — impose unfair costs on everyone else. As Shikha Dalmia wrote recently in Forbes, “Obama’s whole argument for the mandate is based on the idea that uninsured folks impose an unacceptable financial burden on the rest of us when they land in emergency rooms and get care they can’t pay for.”
President Obama has leaned heavily on this justification in virtually (maybe literally) all of his recent health care pontifications. In his speech to the joint session of Congress a few weeks ago, for example, he claimed that “those of us with health insurance are also paying a hidden and growing tax for those without it — about $1,000 per year that pays for somebody else’s emergency room and charitable care.”
This freeloader argument has been a constant refrain. Thus, on June 11 the president said in Green Bay, Wisconsin, that
the average family pays a thousand dollars in extra premiums to pay for people going to the emergency room who don’t have health insurance. So you’re already subsidizing other folks; it’s just you’re subsidizing the most expensive care. You’d be better off subsidizing to make sure they were getting regular checkups. We’re already paying for it. It’s just it’s hidden in your premiums.
A few days later, in remarks to the American Medical Association in Chicago, he said the same thing:
Each time an uninsured American steps foot into an emergency room with no way to reimburse the hospital for care, the cost is handed over to every American family as a bill of about $1,000 that’s reflected in higher taxes, higher premiums, and higher health care costs. It’s a hidden tax, a hidden bill that will be cut as we insure all Americans.
Indeed, Obama’s proposed health care reform may qualify as the only example in history where spending an additional trillion dollars or so is portrayed with a straight face as a tax cut.
As I’ve mentioned, this freeloader argument has been severely criticized on various grounds, including that it is factually challenged. Shikha Dalmia, quoted above, notes that “uncompensated care costs only about $40 billion annually — or about 2% of the country’s $2.2 trillion health care spending. That’s less than what department stores lose to shoplifting every year.” Similarly, a study by the Urban Institute for the Kaiser Family Foundation found the president’s claims “unconvincing.” Quoting that same study, Jacob Sullom notes that “the true annual cost per family is more like $200, with uncompensated care accounting for ‘less than 1 percent of private health insurance costs.’” There are many other factual criticisms, such as that people without health insurance impose no costs on others if they pay for their own medical care.
If the USSC upholds the Federal government in forcing Americans to buy health insurance, then once Congress changes hands, Conservatives can use that precedent to force Americans to buy handguns.
That works for me because I’m not a criminal. I suspect your average Democrat won’t be too happy about it.
Ruger will be giddy with delight, almost as much as Progressive. Remember who runs Progressive?
What was the total amonut the Usurper received in brib…..er.. Campaign Contributions from the Insurance industry?
Is the Health care picture getting clearer now?
It seems quite apparent that Obama is willing to trash the country trying to leave a historic legacy,and to gain power.Its all about Obama.He makes me ill.
Would this type of mandate open the door to the government mandating that everyone, say, stop buying beef because beef cattle produce methane? Or, shades of Atlas Shrugged, everyone buy soy beans because not buying them causes soy bean producers to not earn a “fair” wages (or some other justification)?
Where would it end? It would be lead to the end of the not-so-free market and drive the USA into becoming a command economy.
It must not be allowed to happen!
Are you still proud that you voted for Obama? [LOL]
I checked the Constitution. Nowhere in it does it give the federal government the right to force me to buy goods or services.
Once Chicago’s handgun ban is overturned by the Supreme Court, I’m going to follow my own “individual mandate”. Probably more than once.
As I’ve mentioned, this freeloader argument has been severely criticized on various grounds, including that it is factually challenged.
I found those same stats you did and realized this was another in a long line of “pseudo-crises” that the Left LOVES to create to get their agenda (whatever it happens to be at the moment) shoved through. Remember the “millions of wives get beaten during the Super Bowl” schtick to help pass all sorts of domestic violence legislation? Same MO, different topic.
I am angry about this for two reasons. I don’t think the government should be allowed to tell me to buy anything. Especially an overpriced, fully loaded plan that includes coverages that don’t apply to my situation. I currently have an HSA plan through Humana that cost about 265 a month for our family of 4 that meets our needs. Some estimates say that the government mandated plans would cost about 11k a year. That is a big unwanted expense for your typical family that is self insured.
The full implications of requiring Americans to buy health insurance have not been sufficiently appreciated — or feared.
Me, myself & I…thought it was mind boggling when Obama stated in his speech to the joint session of Congress that purchasing private health insurance would be “mandated”, a sneaky way of saying “required”.
I had a real “What country am I living in ?” moment at that point in his speech.
Another mind boggling thing this President has stated several times (and, seemingly, gone unchallenged on) is that “healthcare costs” are at the center of, really the cause of, the overall financial meltdown.
What did he mean ? That all the bad home loans to people who couldn’t pay and all the arcane bundling of financial instruments that got things so screwed up, worldwide, were all caused by “healthcare” costs ?
The lies & glib mis-representations of reality are getting out of hand.
Personally, I believe that health insurance reform, at the national level, is an unconstitutional infringement of the 10th Amendment to the US Constitution:
Amendment 10 – Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Neither do Congressmen, from what a correspondent recently told me. He reported being at a “town hall” where an attendee challenged the district Congressman for the Constitutional authorization for the health-care bill. The Congressman immediately conceded that there is none — and followed by saying, “So you want to get rid of Medicare, then?”
Never imagine that our “leaders” are unaware of what they’re doing: to us, to the Constitution, or to the Republic formed under its auspices. They know full well.
The “mandate” has been my number one objection to the Marxist “progressive’s” health care bills, even more than the public “option.”
Here again I make my declaration:
As long as their is a government mandate to buy health insurance, I WILL NEVER purchase health insurance. As long as there is a fine (tax) imposed on those who do not purchase health insurance, I will never again earn a single dollar that can be taxed to support this dictatorial regime.
I realize that my choice means that I will suffer poverty, but when it comes to my personal liberty, I WILL NOT SURRENDER to tyrants.
I stand by these words:
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
Benjamin Franklin
And I live by these:
“Give me liberty or give me death.”
Patrick Henry
The battle is on, folks. Where do you stand?
So it is either 1984, complete with Elite
video-cam snoopers making sure you do the
required number of push-ups every day, or
Mad Max Escapes from New York after the
2nd Great Depression ?
Or, on the Gripping Hand, how about Network,
reloaded, with an Army of Davids telling
their Congresscritters “We’re mad as Hell,
and we’re not taking any more, and we expect
you to change the laws _now_ , or we will
replace you with someone who will.”
I think a worthwhile….although depressing read from:http://www.noquarterusa.net
Total Medicare claims denied in one year: 475,566
The entire report can be viewed here: AMA 2008 National Health Insurer Report Card
Again, I am all for reform. And it is up to the American people to decide on what type of reform is best. But what I don’t like is misinformation, and un-truthfulness.
When people bring up their concerns about a Government takeover of health care, or rationing, or the dreaded death panels, they are scoffed at. Yet, looking at the Medicare denial rates, they deny more patients then seven top commercial health insurers.
So, perhaps the next time Obama puts down private insurance companies for denying claims, or scoffs at those concerned about rationing, or being denied under a public option, someone can point out to him that Medicare is one of, if not the worst, offender?
And while they are busy denying coverage to thousands of people, Medicare is running around willy-nilly overspending by the hundreds of millions of dollars.
According to their own auditors, Medicare knowingly overpays for almost everything it buys. Examples include:
– $7,215 to rent an oxygen concentrator, when the purchase price is $600.
– $4,018 for a standard wheelchair, while the private sector pays $1,048.
– $1,825 for a hospital bed, compared to an Internet price of $1,071.
– $3,335 for a respiratory pump, versus an advertised price of $1,987.
– $82 for a diabetic supply kit, instead of a $47 price on the Web.
Last year, the Health and Human Services Department tried to replace its archaic fixed-price fee schedule for 10 commonly purchased products with a competitive bidding program in 10 cities. The department said the program could save Medicare $125 million in a single year, or $1 billion if adopted nationwide. But Congress stepped in to stop it.
But Congress stepped in to block it….
The Congressman immediately conceded that there is none — and followed by saying, “So you want to get rid of Medicare, then?”
Boy, I’m sure glad the supporters of ObamaCare have decided to eschew “scare tactics”.
The fact is, if you took the payroll taxes you pay into Medicare and invested them in an HSA account from the time you started working until the time you reached 65, you’d have plenty of money to buy an insurance policy that met your needs. Added bonus: A program like that wouldn’t bankrupt the country because it would be privately funded. For people who needed a “helping hand” due to either poor health or inability to fund the HSA due to their low levels of income during their working lifetime, a subsidy could be provided.
“Entitlements” are so 20th-century. Actually, they’re 19th-century. Thanks, Otto von Bismark!
Just remember, folks, when “progressives” defend their ideas, they’re defending ideas that ultimately came from this guy (even the SSA recognizes that fact, although I love the disclaimer at the top!):
http://www.ssa.gov/history/ottob.html
What a joke.
It is not about health care, it is about insurance cost redistribution.
The income earner has to pay for the underachiever.
The healthy have to pay for the sick.
The sober have to pay for the addicts.
The fit have to pay for the obese.
The cautious have to pay for the accident prone.
We are being mandated to share the suffering.
We are being crossed connected and linked in body, mind, and treasure to a socialist collective matrix. We are being told that this will stimulate our economy and assure the general welfare and make us more like the rest of the world.
Maybe the public needs to get its nose rubbed in this mess really bad. When the average working guy/girl sees what all this is going to do to their paycheck, if indeed they still have one, it will hopefully wake people up.
Businesses are going to shed insurance health insurance for their employees like crazy because it will be cheaper to pay the fines and the same goes for public employers as well.
As I’ve mentioned, this freeloader argument has been severely criticized on various grounds, including that it is factually challenged.
Obama leans on the freeloader argument, attempting to justify the government plan, like he leaned on the “doctor gets rich amputating your foot and yanking your tonsils” arguments.
Many of his points are at best naive, at worst, intentionally misleading
For the record, the uninsured people I know who currently use the emergency room for “healthcare” are not going to morph into good little citizens under a nationalized plan, getting what Obama claims would be “…regular checkups”.
Let’s just make sure I got this right – the democrats now think it is good public policy to force everyone to buy health insurance from the same “evil” health insurance companies that they were demonizing just a few short weeks ago to garner support for their “public option”?
As I said a while ago, the left is both morally and intellectually bankrupt.
JED,
Agreed. As someone who’s filed about 4 health insurance claims in my life as I approach the age of 40, I realize that the Left’s problem with me is that I’m not paying for others’ insurance and I’m just selfishly enjoying the good luck I’ve had with my health through the years. For that, I must be forced to pay. By their childish logic, that’s what’s “fair”.
My original thought on this is a bit of an oddity for me, since the illegal immigrant issue does not ordinarily consume me as it does some others, but it did strike me that the requirement to purchase a Brand X insurance from Uncle Sam…is a misdirection play.
For quite a while, the hand wringers, bell ringers and Marxo-socialist Hedonist and hypocri-blingers have been bleating on and on about how “we” need to take care of the poor and how we need to ensure and insure that “the poor little innocent children” of the illegal offspring variety are not left coughing and spitting up blood in the streets.
And further, that the numbers of these folks who used emergency rooms (where they can’t get turned away, presumably) as their family medicine practitioners…and that this problem was one of epic proportions.
Now, it appears…it is not these folks who are a drain on the health care system…as we move the pea under a new shell, but rather…people who CAN afford health care out of the massive quantitities of capitalistic pig money they are hoarding…but refuse to buy insurance, in a nefarious plan to saddle the “rest of us” with the burden of caring for them.
The poor and illegal are not a burden on us for their health needs any longer, the capitalist pigs who slop at the health care trough are.
Now, this new stop for the pea under this new shell may be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I just don’t know if the poor and illegal segment of the society is covered by the new mandate.
Will they be “taxed” with the new requirement? Fined for being poor or illegal under the new law?
Are they being counted in the new “view” of the “uninsured”? How?
If not…the pea has not stopped moving and there are shells under which it may hide, which are not in plain view.
A few comments. Saw an article yesterday about people on SS wanting to opt out of Medicare. The Feds told them if they did they would lose their SS too.
Obamacare as written won’t kick in until AFTER the next presidential election. The dem’s don’t want voters to know the costs until after they reelect the messiah. Instead of catastrophic coverage we all need, the plan covers everything but the kitchen sink, and has costs to match. One of the ways they want to pay for it, is to tax medical device makers 12 billion a year. Tell me how that saves a dime.
If your insurance carrier denies coverage, you can see your congressman or take them to court. What do you do when the government denies your claim. As noted by another poster, Medicare denies claims at a much higher rate than any insurance company.
I guess this also means the government can force Americans to buy life insurance. Or, force Americans to put money away for their own retirement. Or, damn it, they can force us to put 10% of our income away in savings every month. Yeah, I can see how, if mandatory health insurance is allowed, there’s no end to what the government can make us do.
I can’t wait to see if conservatives take over in one or the next two elections. Then we’ll see how Democrats feel about all the power they’ve given the government.
One thing I didn’t understand is why young people aren’t more up in arms about this. Since they’re the ones who will mainly be stuck paying for health insurance that they might not ever use until 20 or 30 years later.
The US of A. Where the only things that will be sure in life are death, taxes…and Obamacare.
The poor and illegal are not a burden on us for their health needs any longer, the capitalist pigs who slop at the health care trough are.
A new villain gets concocted up every day, as the sundry spin lines are tried out.
While the only consistently true thing is that this government is hellbent on inserting itself more fully & deeply into your life & further circumscribing your freedom of choice.
While so many in the democrat Congress (e.g., the plethora of Jan Sharkowsky and Nancy Pelosi types) can’t imagine it would be worth doing without “the public option”, single payer.
Total Medicare claims denied in one year: 475,566
Yeah, but they’re the government, so they deny your claims with “compassion”, not like those greedy insurance companies when they deny claims.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl9oFHRJ6kE
Uh oh. Red meat for the Little Green Footballs krew. BURN THEM BEFORE THEY CORRUPT TEH CHILDRENZ!!!
Come on, Prez, we can’t be freeloaders -and- cheap enough to bolster the system at the same time.
All of those young Obama voters who thought they would get something for nothing when Obama is President are in for a big surprise.
How is forcing us to buy health insurance different than being forced to buy auto insurance?
Government orders us to buy insurance.
Government good.
We bad ignorant racist.
We buy insurance without discussing.
We obedient kiddos, we good.
Maybe government will order good obedient kiddos to buy other things good for good obedient kiddos.
Thank you for the opportunity to
commentobey.PS “islam” means “submission”, we good obedient kiddos we learning islam.
How is forcing us to buy health insurance different than being forced to buy auto insurance?
For the most part, auto insurance is to make sure that if you wreck someone else’s car, they can be reimbursed. Also, that’s a mandate that’s enforced at the state, not federal, level. Also, having a license and being able to register a car is a privilege, not a right.
It’s actually quite simple to do.
Last I heard everyone had to contribute to Medicare whether they chose to or not.
And one of you geniuses please explain to me why we should continue to let the illegals get health care without paying a dime for it.
Hell yes, mandate buying insurance and pay for it with a payroll deduction, just like Medicare.
“Examining payment rates for 2006 and 2007, Milliman estimated that if Medicare and Medicaid paid the same rates as private insurers, they would have spent $88.8 billion more.”
http://www.ahip.org/content/default.aspx?docid=25216
How’s this fit into the Wingnutosphere talking points. Medicare and Medicaid are far more efficient than private insurance. Imagine that.
Number 29, the distinction being as follows. You have a choice as to whether or not you use the public highways, you can walk, or take public transit. You can opt out just by choosing not to drive.
33
Bwwaaahhhhhaaaahhhhaaa. You dumb*ass. That report says that Medicare and Medicaid CAUSED private insurers to have to pay more in benefits to cover the chintzy reimbursements that Medicare and Medicaid pay. For crying out loud, Milliman is not a firm prone to moronic analysis like the kind the Left uses.
Look at Chart 5, you imbecile. It shows that hospitals LOSE money on Medicare/Medicaid and only make it back due to private (Commercial) insurance reimbursements. How friggin’ long do you think hospitals are going to remain in business losing money on EVERY patient instead of just on Medicare/Medicaid patients? 5 seconds? 10? A whole minute?
Mercy, you are stupid.
Laying a new “tax” on young adults who are already struggling to make ends meet seems the height of absurdity. When all these young adults who voted for Obama realized what they have been saddled with, they will never vote democrat again.
Obama keeps lying about health reform as does AARP. Medicare will be cut and ObamaCare will be paid for on the backs of young hard working adults who were using HSAs and “self insurance” and seniors who will lose Medicare Advantage subsidies and suffer from billions of dollars of cuts in Medicare. Already doctors don’t want to take Medicare patients in many areas. This “boycotting” of Medicare patients will increase as payments to doctors decrease.
Frankenstein, the Emperor without clothes, and Pinochio are epitomized in our already very stale leader. And we have how many more years to go? Change? I’m ready now.
Medical (and to a lesser extent Dental) providers routinely bill more for insured procedures, just to cover the office costs. Example, I recently had some dental work done, pretty big job, root canal and a crown, and I paid cash, about $1800. I asked my dentist how much she would have billed the same job if I had insurance and she said $2500.
Pay cash and save.
Hell yes, mandate buying insurance and pay for it with a payroll deduction, just like Medicare.
Yes, those illegals will just pay for it with a payroll deduction. What, they’re paid cash and don’t participate in the payroll deduction program? Uh, we’ll just send some IRS agents to their houses then. What? We don’t know where they live? Hmm. Let’s just pass the bill. It’ll all work out because Obama says so and he’s NEVER wrong.
When will young people wake up and smell that something is not right. They are the ones who put Obama into power and now will be his biggest fall guys. The mandate is just another way to redistribute wealth. Now illegals will get health care for free and wage earners will pay for the privilege of supporting those who are not paying taxes. Aren’t we the lucky ones?
It’s a shame Obama’s kids aren’t old enough to be out of school and struggling to make ends meet in the real world. Oh, but I forgot. They get affirmative action so they won’t need to worry about health mandates. Maybe they can become community organizers, work for ACORN, and become presidents too.
#20 Vinividici:
I try to think of this “fairness” as universal and patriotic compassion at the end of a bayonet point, blessed by the IRS.
Put a smooth talking saleman on it, twist a few congressional arms, thug a few corporations, scare the people and zounds, America is much healthier. Welcome to the pool.
I admit that the public option may have to compromised greatly to get the bill passed by a sensible majority. However, if those creepy loony lefties refuse to back anything other than the public option they are making a big mistake. I am still hopeful that some kind of “deal” can be reached whereby the loony right and left can be separated and we get sensible reform. If we do, it will really be a great day for country. Will it happen?…get your ouiji board out.
“How is forcing us to buy health insurance different than being forced to buy auto insurance?”
You are not required, by any law, to own a care. So:
IF you buy a car, THEN you must buy car insurance.
Key word: IF
Now, a mandated health insurance would go:
IF you decide to be alive, THEN you must pay the government a monthly stipend.
Basically,just because we exist, we would have to give the government money. To a libertarian like me, that is pretty much anti-freedom.
It is estimated that the underpayment by Medicare/Medicaid to doctors and hospitals raise the cost of health care 10% to those with private insurance or who self-insure, because the costs are simply transferred to those who pay. That’s why an aspirin will be billed to you or your insurance company at $10 by a hospital.
It has also been estimated that Medicare/Medicaid are subject to about 80 BILLION in fraud and waste EVERY YEAR, which is the major reason they can boast that their administrative costs are so low relative to private insurers. They spend NOTHING on ensuring that they don’t get defrauded, while a big chunk of the admin costs of private insurers is devoted to precisely that – preventing fraud and waste. After all, a for-profit company can’t afford to just throw away or print money like the feds can.
If Obama says that they already know how to save tens of billions of dollars every year by eliminating waste, fraud and abuse in Medicare/Medicare under his plan, why in the hell don’t they rush through that part of the plan RIGHT NOW, instead of continuing to p*ss away all that money in the meantime. The reason is simple – they haven’t a clue and Joe Wilson was absolutely correct – Obama is a liar.
The important question is: how does mandating insurance fix anything?
It makes many of the existing problems worse:
- It continues to allow people to mistake insurance for subsidy, the biggest problem with health insurance
- It will generate government-protected monopolies for corporations like Kaiser and Blue Cross / Blue Shield. Monopolies in health care, along with government regulation, are the reason for high costs. We need competition, not monopoly.
And, of course, it’s just the ‘public option’ in a poor disguise, which is just insulting.
Why are Democrats so fearful of opening up the health care industry for competition? If they ever took an economics class or ran a business they’d know that market forces are the best way to ensure high quality, low cost, and availability.
venividivici:
33
Bwwaaahhhhhaaaahhhhaaa. You dumb*ass. That report says that Medicare and Medicaid CAUSED private insurers to have to pay more in benefits to cover the chintzy reimbursements that Medicare and Medicaid pay.
It is you who is the dumb*ass. Just because the insurance industry makes a nonsensical claim doesn’t make it true.
Wasl Mart is a good place to buy cheap razors. At CVS razors are more. According to your logic razors are more expensive at CVS because Wal Mart sells them cheap.
Think buddy, think. What Medicare and Medicaisd reimbursment rates are has no effect, none whatsoever, on what private insurance pays.
And anyone who’s been in business understands that as plain as can be.
You are easily duped, my friend.
venividivici:
Hell yes, mandate buying insurance and pay for it with a payroll deduction, just like Medicare.
Yes, those illegals will just pay for it with a payroll deduction. What, they’re paid cash and don’t participate in the payroll deduction program?
_____________________________________________________________
Yes, they will and they do pay for it(Medicare) with a payroll deduction. And everyone that does will make it one less gaming the system for free.
Why do you support a system that illegals don’t pay a dime into and yet get treated at our expense? That is exactly what we have today.
geokstr:
It is estimated that the underpayment by Medicare/Medicaid to doctors and hospitals raise the cost of health care 10% to those with private insurance or who self-insure, because the costs are simply transferred to those who pay.
_____________________________________________________________
You obviously have no knowledge of business. None whatsoever.
Here’s a clue. When it comes time to bill someone the amount you bill is the most you possibly can. Period.
That is business 101. What Medicare and Medicaid pay has no bearing whatsoever on what the rest of us pay. None at all.
46:
“According to your logic razors are more expensive at CVS because Wal Mart sells them cheap.”
What? huh? According to my logic, when one retailer sells things cheaper than another, one is cheaper, and the other is more expensive. How does this work in your world skippy?
And, what people who are still in business understand, is that a business must recover it’s costs, or it goes out of business. Do you get that part?
“What Medicare and Medicaisd reimbursment rates are has no effect, none whatsoever, on what private insurance pays.”
Orly? http://www.themha.org/pubs/Maine_s%20Medicare%20Payment%20Shortfall.pdf
What’s the title of that there white paper skippy?
You should back off this one, you were caught lying.
What Medicare and Medicaisd reimbursment rates are has no effect, none whatsoever, on what private insurance pays.
Look, I know you’ve got your one-man business over there, but if you don’t think that multi-person/multi-customer/multi-payor business try to optimize prices over different categories, you’re wrong. It’s called “price discrimination”. That was the whole point of the paper YOU cited approvingly, when you thought it said one thing (wrong though that thought was).
Medicare/Medicaid low reimbursements FORCE providers to charge more to non-Medicare/Medicaid patients. It’s a fact.
Yes, they will and they do pay for it(Medicare) with a payroll deduction. And everyone that does will make it one less gaming the system for free.
Why do you support a system that illegals don’t pay a dime into and yet get treated at our expense? That is exactly what we have today.
I don’t “support a system that illegals don’t pay a dime into”. I support a system that treats illegals and sends a bill to their home country at the same time as deporting them.
I doubt many “illegals”, if they are getting paid by check and making payroll deductions (which is highly doubtful, given that almost 20% of the economy is black market, and most of that is illegals doing illegal things, like not paying their payroll taxes) are going to worry about something as minor as shifting their pay from “above the table” to “under the table”. How you going to enforce the law?
Even though jharp is, of course, an idiot of epic proportions, his link to the Milliman paper did get me to a website that had the PwC report I’ve wanted to read for a while, so, jharp, supreme idiot of this message board, at least you did one intelligent thing today.
Here it is for those interested in understand what drives health care costs:
http://www.ahip.org/content/default.aspx?docid=25123
Graham,
Again. Business 101. What Medicare pays for a certain good or service has no bearing on what a private insurer pays.
None at all. The private insurer gets a bill for the maximum amount the care provider feels it can collect. Period.
Conservatives will believe anything put out by the insurance industry as long as it fits their worldview. In spite of no evidence, none, to support their claim.
You are easily duped. And obviously have no experience in business.
venividivici:
“Medicare/Medicaid low reimbursements FORCE providers to charge more to non-Medicare/Medicaid patients. It’s a fact.”
Nonsense. Check out a care giver who doesn’t accept Medicare and Medicaid. Then explain to me what possible reason there would be to charge any less that the max you feel you can collect.
Again, you know nothing about business. Nada.
venividivici:
“I don’t “support a system that illegals don’t pay a dime into”. I support a system that treats illegals and sends a bill to their home country at the same time as deporting them.”
You support a system that doesn’t exist.
And since Bush and the republicans sat on their hands and did nothing to reform our health care system and since Obama campaigned and won on reforming our health care system, guess what?
You get to watch and have no say.
venividivici:
You are truly a dope. AHIP is a lobbying group for the health insurance industry for God’s sake.
“Welcome to AHIP’s web site. America’s Health Insurance Plans (AHIP) is the national association representing nearly 1,300 member companies providing health insurance coverage to more than 200 million Americans.”
Who makes sure no one takes your lunch money? Unbelievable.
Oy. You may have wanted to go beyond 101 there skippy.
I’d offer you links, but it’s clear you don’t follow/read the target. Venividivici already defined for you the term “price discrimination ,” but it appears to be a bit complex for you.
I’ll try to give you a bit more detail, then perhaps you should do a bit of work yourself. Perhaps move on to business 201.
Price discrimination is the practice of offering different prices for the same service to different customers. Like medicare/medicaid underpays hospitals. Follow so far?
There are (at least) two reasons for doing so:
1. Maximize revenue. i.e. charge as much as they think they can collect in order to maximize profit. This appears to be the only reason you seem to think anyone would exercise this practice. However, there is:
2. Recover fully allocated costs. This is the part that veni (correctly) cites.
Two reasons may be a bit nuanced for you. Perhaps one doesn’t learn the second until the next business class. Maybe you should take that one. You may see your business (Amway?) become more successful, thus relieving the rest of us of the burden of carrying your water.
Check out a care giver who doesn’t accept Medicare and Medicaid. Then explain to me what possible reason there would be to charge any less that the max you feel you can collect.
Thanks, but I’ll go with Milliman’s analysis. They’re a brand name firm that’s been around for almost 70 years. You are an idiot.
Pricing is a complex thing, but if there were no incremental value to charging different prices to different groups, why do companies spend millions of dollars, if not billions, on market research, customer segmentation, real-time pricing systems, etc. Simply asserting that “companies price to get the maximum they can” as if that were the end of the story is in line with your generally simplistic worldview, so it doesn’t surprise me that you would say it. Read the paper that Graham linked, which provides an estimate of just how much private insurance prices could go down if Medicare weren’t so chintzy. Just because YOU are incapable of understanding such analysis doesn’t mean the rest of the world has to oblige your inabilities. Some people can do advanced calculus in their heads. I can’t. I don’t go around saying “No one can do advanced calculus in their heads”. You don’t understand how to do the analysis required for this, but that doesn’t mean others don’t. You think that the whole world is subject to the same cognitive limitations as you? Please. If that were true, we’d still be living in grass huts.
You are truly a dope. AHIP is a lobbying group for the health insurance industry for God’s sake.
Dude, you were the one who linked to the paper on their website! When you thought the paper supported your position, you thought it was the greatest piece of writing since the Bible. Now, it’s the trash product of a compromised lobbying group (nice ad hominem by the way. I knew you couldn’t go a day without at least one logical fallacy).
You’re clearly out of your depth.
You get to watch and have no say.
You know what, the Constitution says otherwise. As with the Milliman thing, I’m going to go with the Constitution over you. Deal with it.
29. Il Gecko:
How is forcing us to buy health insurance different than being forced to buy auto insurance?
Oct 7, 2009 – 10:20 am
Simple if you choose to drive a vehicle and assume the liability of death or serious injury to property and life then you must carry a minimum amount of liability coverage as defined by the state in which you live, but if you do not drive then you do not pay this.
However forcing me or you to pay for health insurance (even though I am a service connected disability Vietnam Veteran supposedly covered by the Veterans Administration) I could be forced to pay for an approved policy.
Driving a car, truck or SUV is not only a choice but a privilege extended by your state of residence under certain guidelines, however being alive is not and you have no argument. If I choose to live and accept the consequences about my health then that is in my pursuit of happiness which is guaranteed in the Constitution of The United States.
Nowhere in the constitution is it mandated a a citizen should be forced to purchase any commodity or service and if such is enacted then it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL
venividivici:
You are truly a dope. AHIP is a lobbying group for the health insurance industry for God’s sake.
Dude, you were the one who linked to the paper on their website! When you thought the paper supported your position, you thought it was the greatest piece of writing since the Bible. Now, it’s the trash product of a compromised lobbying group.
_______________________________________________________________
Yes, I did post the link and yes it does support my position. It’s when they make the leap that health care is expensive because Medicare has lower reimburse rates than private insurance that’s BS.
It’s an excellent example of insurance lobbyists misleading you dupes.
My original point stands. “Examining payment rates for 2006 and 2007, Milliman estimated that if Medicare and Medicaid paid the same rates as private insurers, they would have spent $88.8 billion more.”
Steve DeMarcus:
“Nowhere in the constitution is it mandated a a citizen should be forced to purchase any commodity or service and if such is enacted then it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL”
Nonsense. Compete and utter nonsense.
I suppose the National Parks, the interstate highway system, the air traffic controllers, Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security are “UNCONSTITUTIONAL” too.
Where do you gomers come up with this garbage? Limbaugh?
Ruh roh.
The Congressional Budget Office has released its preliminary assessment of the healthcare bill passed out of the Senate Finance Committee last week. It pays for itself over ten years, it pays for itself over 20 years, it covers 94% of the population, and it reduces Medicare spending by over $400 billion.
Obama’s numbers will go through the roof. And how sweet is that?
Congratulations Mr. President.
Well, if this law passes (and I think it will) I will feel really sorry for the young people who have to pay for this.
Oh, wait. No I won’t.
Most of them have bubblegum where their brains ought to be anyway.
And number 61, all of those things you list are but a small fraction of the ongoing cost of this new law. And by “cost” I mean over and above the dollar amounts, for instance:
How are you all going to like it when your doctors, nurses, and technicians, and maybe even the janitors, have access to all of your IRS records, any year, any time they please?
Any semblance of privacy will be completely gone.
Yes, I did post the link and yes it does support my position. It’s when they make the leap that health care is expensive because Medicare has lower reimburse rates than private insurance that’s BS.
It’s an excellent example of insurance lobbyists misleading you dupes.
My original point stands. “Examining payment rates for 2006 and 2007, Milliman estimated that if Medicare and Medicaid paid the same rates as private insurers, they would have spent $88.8 billion more.”
Your original point doesn’t stand and I’m not going to pretend it does. You need professional help.
Wow. Double ruh roh.
From Redstate.com
“I (Erick Erickson) am told quite reliably that in a meeting today on Capitol Hill, Republican Senators began to rapidly move toward concessions on health care because they are afraid they cannot hold their members. Some Republicans are now thinking of supporting a government program.”
Is that the fat lady I hear warming up her vocal chords? A huge, huge loss for the GOP.
Praise the Lord!
62. jharp:
You are an idiot. I’ve read your comments for some time now and you are truly without a clue. Are you aware of the original projections for the cost of Medicare? The actual costs are 800% higher than the projected costs.
94% of ‘Americans’ already have health insurance and 100% have access to health care.
ANY government plan can be made to “pay for itself” if taxes are raised enough to cover the projected cost of the plan. $800+ in spending requires $800+ in new taxes. Taxes that will be paid by all of us.
There are only about 15 million AMERICANS who are truly without insurance that are also unable to get it. Why does it cost $ 80 BILLION a year to cover them?
I already have health insurance and am quite happy with my HSA. By what authority does the federal government eliminate my option and FORCE me into a government plan under threat of fines and prison?
If you support this clearly unconstitutional power grab then you are as much a totalitarian as Obama.
If you really think we Conservatives are going to accept this defeat and go home to cry in our pillows you are gravely mistaken. This will spawn 10th Amendment challenges from the states, individual SC challenges from citizens and organizations, and may very well lead to serious talk of secession.
Conservatives will NOT be herded into socialism. And frankly I loathe and despise people like you who have the arrogance to believe that I am somehow responsible to support those outside my immediate family. Why do I and my family have to sacrifice even more than we already do through the confiscation of a significant portion of my earnings to support someone else? By what right does some total stranger lay claim to my wages?
What’s next? The abolition of private pensions, IRA’s,and 401k’s? Will our savings be confiscated and all Americans be forced into a government retirement system? Rep. Miller (D-CA) proposed this very thing just last summer (2008).
The Progressive totalitarians are never satisfied and are always in pursuit of more power and control over individual FREE citizens.
The Democrat party has become our own Politburo.
jharp – the Democrats will be wiped out next year. Passing a health care bill against the will of the majority of Americans in no way improves Obama’s or his Party’s numbers.
57. venividivici:
Thanks, but I’ll go with Milliman’s analysis. They’re a brand name firm that’s been around for almost 70 years.64.
jharp posted: My original point stands. “Examining payment rates for 2006 and 2007, Milliman estimated that if Medicare and Medicaid paid the same rates as private insurers, they would have spent $88.8 billion more.”
64. venividivici:
Your original point doesn’t stand and I’m not going to pretend it does. You need professional help.
_______________________________________________________
So what is it venividivici? You’ve painted yourself into a little corner, huh?
“Again. Business 101. What Medicare pays for a certain good or service has no bearing on what a private insurer pays.”
I don’t know what horrible college you attended, but maybe you should have stuck around through Business 102.
Medicare underpay is one of the bigger drivers of insurance overpay. This is not theory, it’s documented.
The reason you’re having difficult understanding this is because you’re either:
1. Stupid
2. Trying to apply the wrong theory (health care in America is not a free market, therefore pure free market rules do not apply)
3. A troll
I’m going with a mix of 1 & 3.
Eric:
jharp – the Democrats will be wiped out next year. Passing a health care bill against the will of the majority of Americans in no way improves Obama’s or his Party’s numbers.
_____________________________________________________________
Eric,
The democrats are 2 to 1 favorites to maintain control of the House. And the Senate looks even worse for you.
And the republicans have an approval rating of 17%!
You are only getting started on your long trek through the wilderness.
“And since Bush and the republicans sat on their hands and did nothing to reform our health care system and since Obama campaigned and won on reforming our health care system, guess what?
You get to watch and have no say.”
Had Obama been up front with the specifics of “change” he would have lost. He successfully fooled enough Americans dissatisfied with Bush that he won.
… and since we’re all in the mood to provide sources, here’s one report that shows how Medicare underpays:
http://www.ahip.org/content/default.aspx?docid=25216
Now, one can make the argument that Medicare underpaying would be a GOOD thing – if we’re all on Medicare (or a similar system) and Medicare routinely underpays, the providers have to accept what Medicare will pay, and prices go down.
But again – Econ 101, jharp – this is known as ‘price fixing’ and a ‘command economy’. Do a little research and let me know how every experiment with such a thing has worked out.
From the PwC report linked above:
Cost Shifting:We estimate that cost shifting from public providers and the uninsured to
private payers increased premiums by 0.5 percent in 2007, the same as we found in 2005. Data from the American Hospital Association shows that the ratio of Medicaid hospital payments to hospital costs fell from 96.1 percent in 2002 to 87.1 percent in 2005.2 The number of uninsured as a percent of the population increased from 16.6
percent to 18.3 percent between 2002 and 2007. This increasing amount of unreimbursed costs associated with public programs and the uninsured tends to be shifted by providers to other payers, particularly self-insured employers and private health insurance plans.
So now we have two of the most respected firms in this space (health care industry analysis), Milliman and PriceWaterhouseCoopers, saying that providers shift costs from under-paying government programs on to private insurance policy holders. But, jharp wants us to believe this doesn’t happen, based on no analysis he’s done, but based simply on his word. This from a man who says he’s an accountant, but probably couldn’t even get an interview with either Milliman or PWC. The guy is living in a fantasy world where he is the fountain of all knowledge and the rest of the world are either dupes or idiots. As I said, he needs professional help or at least to be kept from harming anyone as his delusions come crashing down.
Speaking of which, the Baucus version ain’t popular in the House. Why? The unions and their “Cadillac” plans. Haven’t the unions heard that our very own VP, Slo Joe Biden, says paying taxes is patriotic? Love that Democrat civil war.
http://tinyurl.com/y98g5fq
“More than 150 House Democrats have urged Speaker Nancy Pelosi to quash a new tax on expensive insurance plans.
In a letter sent Wednesday to Pelosi (D-Calif.), a broad coalition of Blue Dogs and progressives said the proposed fee should not be included in the chamber’s final healthcare reform bill.”
Oh, and since about $400 billion in savings to keep the CBO scoring at deficit-neutral is from “Medicare cost savings”, that’s also not going to be credible.
Even more importantly, anyone believing any estimates of how much this will cost over the long run needs to consider this:
http://tinyurl.com/ycwvpsf
“At its inception in 1966, Medicare carried an annual price tag of $3 billion. Its Congressional founders predicted that cost would rise to $12 billion a year by 1990 — a figure that accounted for inflation.
The true cost of Medicare is stunning. In 1990, rather than costing American taxpayers $12 billion, Medicare cost $107 billion — an increase of 800% over the government’s best guess at the program’s cost 23 years before.”
Only someone as deluded as our resident trolls could fail to see that these numbers are far, far more likely to understate the cost (and hence the increases to the deficit) than they are to either be accurate or understate the costs.
So what is it venividivici? You’ve painted yourself into a little corner, huh?
Are you retarded? Are you even reading the Milliman paper? Do you understand what it says because nothing you’ve said since you posted it indicates that you do. Seriously.
The Milliman paper is saying that the cost that is passed on to non-Medicare/Medicaid patients because of low Medicare/Medicaid reimbursements is $88.8 billion. From what I can gather, you seem to think it says that Medicare/Medicaid SAVED someone (I don’t even f8cking know who, only your convoluted thought process could determine that) $88.8 billion. Wrong. See my other post above on the PWC report that says the exact same thing, using percentage increases in private insurance premium costs instead of a dollar figure. Again, look at chart 5 of the Milliman paper and note that hospitals LOSE money on every Medicare/Medicaid patient. In order to stay in business, they must cover those losses by increasing prices on non-Medicare/Medicaid patients. I know that in your little world such a pricing strategy is impossible, but, I assure you, my pricing strategy professor was not lying to me and the rest of my class when we discussed price discrimination as a form of profit maximization. I have neither the time nor the patience to give you a free MBA via the PJM message board, but I’m not going to discuss it with you further because it would be like discussing the flat Earth theory with someone who believed in it.
Milliman staes quite clearly. It a fact that is easily verified.
“Examining payment rates for 2006 and 2007, Milliman estimated that if Medicare and Medicaid paid the same rates as private insurers, they would have spent $88.8 billion more.”
Then they state an opinion that cannot be verified and uses the word “tends”.
“This increasing amount of unreimbursed costs associated with public programs and the uninsured tends to be shifted by providers to other payers, particularly self-insured employers and private health insurance plans.”
I say that no costs are shifted to private insurance. Any sane businessman is charging the private insurers the max they can regardless of what Medicare pays. And if you aren’t making money with Medicare, please tell me, why in the hell would you accept it. Most economists agree.
“This increasing amount of unreimbursed costs associated with public programs and the uninsured tends to be shifted by providers to other payers, particularly self-insured employers and private health insurance plans.”
venividivici:
So what is it venividivici? You’ve painted yourself into a little corner, huh?
Are you retarded? Are you even reading the Milliman paper? Do you understand what it says because nothing you’ve said since you posted it indicates that you do. Seriously.
The Milliman paper is saying that the cost that is passed on to non-Medicare/Medicaid patients because of low Medicare/Medicaid reimbursements is $88.8 billion.
Flat out false.
This is what they said and I quote.
“Examining payment rates for 2006 and 2007, Milliman estimated that if Medicare and Medicaid paid the same rates as private insurers, they would have spent $88.8 billion more.”
Sheesh. There is not much doubt who the retarded one is here.
“41. Poor Citizen:
I admit that the public option may have to compromised greatly….”
So sayith a leftwing loon. Sad to have to admit that huh. :rolleyes:
Is jharp actually Rahm? He is so nasty and also has the talking points memorized.
For anyone who cares and mostly for jharp:
Healthcare Economics 101
Medical procedures are paid on the basis of $’s per Resource Value Units. Medicaid pays in the mid $20/RVU, Medicare in the mid $30, and commercial payors in the mid $40’s. Assume $25, $35 and $45 for the three payors. For every Medicaid patient you lose money, for every Medicare patient you breakeven and you make money on the commercial insurance patients.
A Medicare provider cannot legally bill different payors different charges. Therefore providers bill all payors about $75 per RVU. However, providers have contracts in which they agree they will accept whatever that payor allows. Therefore each provider can only collect what the payor pays and whatever the allowed co-pay is.
If you loose money on Medicaid patients and break even on Medicare patients you need to make sure your contracts with commercial insurance companies reimburse you enough to pay your staff, medical malpractice insurance, professional malpractice for your technical employees, healthcare insurance, rent, etc so that you can at least make a teachers salary. That is why so many doctors restrict the number of Medicare and Medicaid patients and cancel contracts with low paying payors.
Look at it this way, cost shifting occurs because providers decline to contract with commercial payors that won’t pay enough to offset the losses from Medicaid and Medicare. If Medicare reimbursements are to be cut by $650 B then commercial insurance premiums must increase. At some point private healthcare will not be economically feasible. Moreover, if the goal of excellence is diminished at some point doctors form a union (ie Canada and England) and simply refuse to work more than 8 hours a days with two 15 minute breaks and a hour lunch break. Not the recipe for high quality healthcare.
Jharp: If there is anything you don’t understand about this post I would suggest you spend the time you spend polluting this site Googling, visiting your local library and in general learning about healthcare and healthcare economics. At the end of the day you need to figure out if you really want an unmotivated, poorly trained physician with a second tier intellect and his uninterested assistant pushing a scope up your rectum to search for polyps in your colon.
Sheesh. There is not much doubt who the retarded one is here.
No, there really isn’t. Of course, I never doubted you were retarded, so it was not a matter of going from “much doubt” to “no doubt”. It’s been obvious to me from day 1 that you are retarded.
Then they state an opinion that cannot be verified and uses the word “tends”.
Have you ever written a white paper? That’s a rhetorical question, but anyway, my point is that the authors of a white paper, especially one commissioned by an outside group, typically will interview subject matter experts, both to get access to underlying data and to get assistance in the interpretation of that data. Obviously, Milliman’s authors CONFIRMED with the providers that the costs TEND to be shifted. Just as obvious is why they have to use the word “tend” as opposed to “always are”, which is because obviously private insurance companies and individual payers push back and negotiate prices that may in some cases not fully recover the losses from Medicare/Medicaid. I know Milliman’s work very well and I can tell you with 100% certainty that that passage would not have remained in the final product if it was simply the authors’ “opinion” and had not been verified with providers in a position to KNOW, not speculate, on their organizations’ pricing strategies to deal with different payors.
Again, you are a narrow-minded fool, who uses his own narrow experience in life to generalize to the broader world. Unless one’s experiences in life encompass a much broader scope than yours appear to, that is a bad idea.
Any sane businessman is charging the private insurers the max they can regardless of what Medicare pays.
You really are a Johnny-one-note on this. Again, this is ONE consideration in a pricing strategy. You are thinking of a very simple model that essentially has one provider charging prices to two other parties, who don’t seem to know what each other are paying. But, that’s not true in the case of Medicare and private providers because private providers have a very good idea of what Medicare is paying. So, providers know that private insurers know Medicare’s payments. Then, private insurers have different levels of negotiating power. Some insurers can get better pricing than others due to the high number of enrollees they have, while others can’t negotiate anything because they are too small. Some providers have more negotiating power against private insurers because they are part of a very small number of providers of that service in specific geographical region in which the privately-insured live. All of these things, and much more, go into pricing strategies and there is most definitely cost-shifting. Sh*t, that’s the whole premise of the quotes FROM OBAMA that are cited in this article! He is saying that the costs from the uninsured are SHIFTED to the insured. If your simple pricing strategy were the basis for making pricing decisions, not only would the costs from Medicare/Medicaid NOT be shifted, NEITHER would the costs from the uninsured. YET, Obama himself is saying they are. That’s right, idiot, your friggin’ demi-god is making an argument that contradicts yours.
So, although I disagree with Obama in detail, I agree with him that there is cost-shifting going on. I guess Obama’s just as retarded as I am. You really should write him a letter telling him that “no sane businessman would do what you’re saying, Mr. President”. I’m sure he’ll change his mind once you bring that brilliant insight to his attention.
Good Lord.
Here’s what is going to happen …
Health care reform will pass, with a meaningful public option. All else is redundant blather
Here’s what is going to happen …
Health care reform will pass, with a meaningful public option. All else is redundant blather
Yeah, I don’t think you know what “redundant” means, you just wanted to use a big word. If the people who are “blathering” are saying “health care reform won’t pass” or “health care reform won’t pass with a meaningful public option”, what exactly is “redundant” in those statements? To be “redundant” something must repeat something someone else said without any additional meaning, but with different words.
Anyway, enough lessons on the meaning of words. I’ll believe what you say when I see it. If it passes, I hope it kills the Left in this country for good. In fact, I hope it kills it so dead that every Leftist who supported it ends up out of a job and homeless, dying in the streets. That would make me happy to see.
venividivici:
“In fact, I hope it kills it so dead that every Leftist who supported it ends up out of a job and homeless, dying in the streets. That would make me happy to see.”
Real classy. And let me guess. You also claim to be a Christian.
Just because you are ignorant and have been reduced to political insignificance is no reason to wish death on your fellow citizens.
Real classy. And let me guess. You also claim to be a Christian.
Look at my screen name, retard. Does that seem like the kind of screen name a Christian would use?
Just because you are ignorant and have been reduced to political insignificance is no reason to wish death on your fellow citizens.
I’ll do whatever I please and for whatever reason I please. I live on my feet, not on my knees like you Obama-worshippers.
Just because you are ignorant
You can’t cite a paper correctly nor do you understand things that you claim to understand perfectly and I’m ignorant? You are beyond parody.
You’re like a modern-day Leftist Archie Bunker.
venividivici:
I cited the article correctly. It is you who tried to twist and obfuscate and you got busted.
This is what they said and I quote.
“Examining payment rates for 2006 and 2007, Milliman estimated that if Medicare and Medicaid paid the same rates as private insurers, they would have spent $88.8 billion more.”
This is what you made up and posted and I called you on it.
74. venividivici:
The Milliman paper is saying that the cost that is passed on to non-Medicare/Medicaid patients because of low Medicare/Medicaid reimbursements is $88.8 billion.
______________________________________________________________
Now, in addition to being ignorant it is obvious that you are a liar as well. Stop digging. The hole you are in deep enough.
Now, in addition to being ignorant it is obvious that you are a liar as well. Stop digging. The hole you are in deep enough.
The only hole around here is the one in your head where your brains leaked out.
You obviously have no clue what the Milliman paper’s thesis is. Again, I’m done and the thread will just have to stand as evidence of what I said and what you said. There’s nothing I can gain from “debating” with someone so detached from reality. It’s like the Milliman paper is an math problem and your answer to it is “tuba”. There’s a story about one of the pioneers of quantum physics getting a paper from a young researcher asking for his opinion of it. The older physicist replied something along the lines of “That’s so wrong it isn’t even wrong”, meaning the younger researcher had so botched the initial premises that there was no way to recover and reach anything like a defensible conclusion. A parable of our interaction and, no, you aren’t the older physicist in this parable.
Just as I thought. You are too cowardly to admit you were wrong and that you tried to obfuscate and lie in order to sell your losing position.
You are a loser. Your position on health care reform is a loser. And the candidates who support your position have been voted out in droves.
And then to top it off you wish death on your political opponents. Classy guy, venividivici.
Your self-appraised sense of being superior to others with regard to diction, Mr vvv, is unwarranted. I used the word ‘redundant’ in exactly the way it is defined, denotatively. Your anger about being on the losing side is pushing you to the grandiosity extreme of paranoia.
I’ll admit, I didn’t read all the comments (there’s an awful lot of ‘em), so someone may have already mentioned this. OK, here goes: Let’s say you fall on hard times and find you need a little “gummint” help, say a little welfare/foodstamps — just ’til you get on your feet. A couple months or so, maybe. But NO. The gov’t makes you get rid of EVERYTHING you own before they’ll help you. That means, there goes your house (if you have one), your car, your savings — anything of ANY value MUST go. That way, instead of needing just a little help for just a little while, they drive you into permanent poverty. It’s just brilliantly evil, and I assume deliberate.
My point: What if, under this gov’t mandated insurance, you fall on hard times, and just can’t pay for it? Well, they’ll give you a subsidy, so they say (and where the heck is all this money coming from?! But that’s another issue). But will that subsidy cost you EVERYTHING? Will not being able to pay for the mandated insurance end up driving you into desperate poverty, as you have to give up your house, your car, your paltry savings account — EVERYTHING — that could eventually help you climb out of your hole?!
So, you’ll have health insurance. You won’t have anything else, but you’ll have THAT. Great. Try eating it, staying warm and dry, or paying bills with it. And how ’bout when they tell you: Hang glide? Lose your coverage (LYC). Horseback ride? LYC. Hike? LYC. Swim? LYC. Rock climb? LYC. Lift weights? LYC. Own a gun? LYC. Too active? LYC. Sedentary? LYC. Think I’m crazy? (Oh no! I’ll LMC!) Read 1984. The whole thing’s designed to doublethink us over the brink.
So Obama’s mother was a freeloader when she was unable to pay for her medical bills? ALL the non white males Obama helped beat the system when he was a social worker in Chicago were freeloaders?This is ALL a bald faced lie. I can tell you from personal experience that if you don’t have health insurance and go to the hospital the hospital bills YOU. They KEEP billing and hounding YOU. The premiums he talks about come from INSURANCE COMPANIES sucking off their customers! The premiums come from the rising costs of DRUGS and EQUIPMENT from medical companies that your insurance company tells you you don’t qualify for but keeps making you pay for.
The freeloaders are the health insurance and medical companies that have bought the damnocrats and christicans.