Food Stamps for the Well-Off: A National Trend?
On March 13, Ohio blogger Matt Hurley, who has been running Weapons of Mass Discussion for over five years, received an email from “someone in the business” — specifically, the social services “business” in Warren County, Ohio, just northeast of Cincinnati (typos in original have been corrected):
Subject: Food Stamp Case
One of the workers here just approved an ongoing food stamp case where the family has over $80,000 in the bank, owns a 2001 Toyota and 2006 Mercedes Benz, and a $311,000 home that is paid for. Monthly benefits of over $500 in FS, received over $300 in expedited.
3 household members — husband, wife, and child. Wife recently lost job, husband receives SS benefits.
There’s something badly wrong with this program that allows a family that kind of resources to still get food stamps.
This is where things have gotten to. I would think the world would want to know about this.
The emailer was only partially correct. Southwestern Ohio was interested, as Warren County and neighboring Butler County pushed back, promising to resist approving similar future aid applications. A Warren County-based state legislator has drafted a bill to tighten eligibility rules.
But most of the rest of the state has shown little interest, and in the rest of the nation there has barely been a ripple. I believe that needs to change.
The fact is that many states quietly and significantly liberalized their food stamp eligibility rules last fall. An October 19 USA Today article was one of the very few that even noticed it. But in doing so, the newspaper’s Wendy Koch played down their importance:
Some states are going further to expand eligibility. Last month, California enacted a bill that will allow low-income people to keep some savings and still qualify for food aid. At least four other states — Maryland, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Vermont — similarly eased the asset test this year.
“People won’t have to sink to ground zero to get help,” says Paul Fraunholtz, a deputy director in Ohio’s Department of Job and Family Services.
Who knew that $80,000 was “some savings”? Or that it’s barely above what Ohio’s Fraunholtz refers to as “ground zero”?
I have since learned that Ohio’s change does not appear to be as comprehensive as it first seemed; the lifting of asset limits such as not having more than $2,000 in the bank, etc., appears to apply only to certain situations (but note that USA Today’s Koch incorrectly gave readers the impression that recipients aren’t allowed to have any savings). Nevertheless, the fact is that the food stamp program’s eligibility rules and benefit structure were just fine before September 30 and there was no crying need for change. (This issue is separate from whether applicants tell the truth when they apply. That has been an ongoing problem for decades and there’s no space to address it here.)
For almost two years, advocates of program expansion have been peddling the fiction that food stamp benefits are inadequate to meet participants’ needs, claiming that the average benefit of $21-$23 per person per week is not enough to meet a person’s food and nutritional needs. They have conducted “food stamp challenges” around the country, coaxing activists, journalists, governors, congressmen, and other politicians into trying to buy and live on the aforementioned dollar amounts of food for a week. Routinely failing (of course), they have then reached the “obvious” conclusion that the government has to increase benefits to keep people from starving.
There’s only one problem: actual program benefits for those who have very low incomes and no other resources are much higher. What follows, directly from the USDA’s site, are the maximum monthly allotments (i.e., benefits) for varying household sizes, effective October 1, 2008, accompanied on the right by the weekly costs per person of various ages of what the USDA calls its “thrifty meal plan,” also as of last October (the USDA estimates costs at four levels at its “cost of food at home” page: thrifty, low-cost, moderate, and liberal):
In other words, the benefit levels above give participants the ability to have what the USDA calls a “nutritious diet” if they choose to be “thrifty.” Last time I checked, it was not unreasonable to expect beneficiaries of taxpayer largess to actually be thrifty — or if they’re not, to pay the extra price themselves.
Even getting by on the bogusly claimed $21-$23 can be done. Colorado couple Ari and Jennifer Armstrong proved in August 2007 that they could buy and live on $180 worth of food in a month — the advocates’ monthly equivalent of the “impossible” $21-$23 a week — and had over $20 left over when they were done. Of course, the Denver media, many of whom attempted and of course “failed” at their own “food stamp challenge,” pretended the Armstrongs didn’t exist.
Here’s what those who want to expand benefits don’t want us to know: The average actual benefit is lower because, as the USDA states, “food stamp households are expected to spend about 30 percent of their resources on food” (from income, as the USDA defines it, and assets). In other words, if you earn enough money to be able to pay for part of your food costs, after appropriately considering other expenses and individual/family circumstances, you should do so. Imagine that.
Further, if you have enough money in the bank to pay for your own food, you should do that before running to the government for assistance. Yet running to the government is clearly what happened in the Warren County case that got the whole controversy rolling. There are now reports of similar examples coming in from other Ohio counties. In theory (but again, in relatively limited situations), there appears to be no reason why an applicant with $1 million in liquid assets couldn’t apply for benefits and get them.
This is outrageous. Since when did it become taxpayers’ duty to feed people who have more than enough money to feed themselves — even quite well?
I would suggest that taxpayers in the other states mentioned by USA Today, and perhaps others, should look into what has happened where they live, get past the nice descriptions, and find out what the social services folks have decided to do with what is, after all, your money.







Whats funny is the fact that US soldiers who had large families use to get food stamp… yet they cracked down hard on them even though many were far below the line of getting it and many far better payed families still got food stamps. Now that they’ve slacked them again I still bet no one in the army even well below the line for it can get them.
As one who just recently moved up to spending approximately $2.50/day, give or (mostly) take for food, $176 a month AT THIS MOMENT in our economy would finally consistently put fruits and vegetables back on the plate..
The rest is most interesting.. Off to stir the (stew?) pot..
Cyber hugs from Talking Rock..
I can’t believe you took the word of an unsourced anonymous e-mail…
This is from the actual guidelines from Ohio’s food stamp program:
A person may qualify for benefits if the household’s gross monthly income is within 130% of the federal poverty guidelines after all allowable expenses are deducted. Expenses can include rent/mortgage, gas, electric, water, sewer, phone, child support, medical expenses, child care, etc. Eligibility also depends on the number of people in the household, and whether they purchase, prepare and eat together. In some situations, the person’s resources such as cash, savings, stocks, and etc. are also considered when determining whether someone is eligible.
If authentic, there is much to object to in the e-mail you cite. If it is, indeed, authentic.
Based on Ohio’s stated eligibility requirements, that doesn’t seem likely. Do you have any other straw men you’d like to tear down?
No, some are eligible and some do receive food stamps. They didn’t really crack down on the soldiers, but they did look at pay rates to ensure that no military family fell below the threshold that would trigger food stamps. A lot of military families (including mine) fall into WIC eligibility, though.
If you’re eligible for food stamps and in the military, your command won’t penalize you for applying for and receiving them.
The USDA “moderate” weekly grocery bill for my family of 5 (2 adults, 3 kids – 8,6,2) is $250.40. I’m not anywhere close to that and we eat pretty well. I’m not sure I could push the grocery cart with that much food….LOL. No wonder we have an obesity problem in this country. The only way I could spend that much was if I was buying a bunch of pre-fab, overly-processed junk food. And if you’ve lost your job and need benefits then you’ve got the time on your hands to clip coupons and cook more from scratch. And you ought to be trying to cut costs anyway if you’re in that situation instead of expecting the government to maintain your previous standard of living.
And where on earth does the gov’t think that men eat less than women? My 6’2″ 185 lb. hubby eats more than me and the kids combined and I’m pregnant. If I ate as much as he does I’d need a gov’t funded weight-loss plan more than food stamps.
Oops, got the male and female numbers backwards on the chart… never mind the last part of the rant
Even worse, I heard of a guy who was a millionaire, and screwed up so badly at his job that his company went bankrupt- and yet, the government gave him a $6 million welfare payment!
oh wait- he was an AIG gambler, er, trader. Never mind, cancel the outrage. Lets get the pitchforks and torches and go after the family of 4 that spends more than $33.83 per person.
Sorry Herb. No one is disputing the authenticity of the e-mail, because Warren County officials, as documented in several SW Ohio media reports, have confirmed the existence of the case cited.
It is so real that food stamp advocates are whining that someone’s privacy has been violated — even though the people involved have never been named.
Straw men my a**.
I think we are missing a point here. This individual (assuming the story is even somewhat correct) was most likely one of those “high income” earners who have been required to pay for those programs in all the years that they were productive. Now Mr. Obama says these people should pay even more so that his constituency group can reap the benefits of the productive classes efforts – share the wealth. Now whether this individual decided to “go Galt” or had the misfortune to lose their job they are now taking full advantage of those government programs that they were required to pay for during their “high income” years.
Socialism only seems to work when the vast majority of citizens continue to try to be productive and improve their economic condition despite the onerous taxes and regulations imposed on them by the government. Socialism fails when those productive citizens chose to join the takers simply because they are tired of playing the fool.
Direct experience with those who benefit from SSDI has shown me that this problem is much, much worse than the food stamp problem. And it’s getting worse now that lawyers are promoting the abuse for their own gain.
Oh, and by ‘those who benefit’, I don’t mean the folks actually receiving the checks. Those receiving the checks are the growing population of individuals who are “too depressed” to work, “too obese” to work, “disabled”… from past drug abuse, declared perpetually “suicidal” and “unfit” to work by clinics who derive income from their “treatment”. The list goes depressingly on.
The ones who actually benefit are:
- attorneys who ‘help’ these people qualify for benefits. Whoever thought a whole new breed of attorneys could make ambulance chasers like Jonny Edwards appear ethical?
- medical and psych facilities – some of which prescribe medication and dispense it from their own internal pharmacies (no conflict of interest there, no). These clinics are paid by the State for years and years of ‘therapy’ given to SSDI beneficiaries. The clinic, of course, is the entity responsible for determining when that person is ready to stop receiving SSDI (no conflict of interest there, no).
- landlords who rent out one-room apartments to unemployed SSDI beneficiaries at exorbitant government expense.
- livery services who cart SSDI beneficiaries back and forth to therapy and other various locations – at $75-100 per trip – while physically handicapped clinicians with mobility issues have to pay out-of-pocket for transportation when needed.
The list goes on and on and it got so depressing as to make it impossible to work in that clinical milieu any longer.
The entitlement mindset, run rampant throughout America, is eating us from the inside. And it’s actively promoted by Congress. Just the other day I received a taxpayer-funded flier from Congressman Chris Murphy, congratulating himself on the “Recovery” Act he helped ram through Congress without analysis or debate. It was entitled “What’s in it for Connecticut?” Can’t get much more blatant than that.
Ancillary to all this are the new statutes that effectively reverse the welfare reform implemented during the Clinton administration. By the time anyone gets around to thoroughly analyzing that part of the legislation, we’ll all be on welfare.
My lawnmower repair man is 70 years old and showed me (some) of his investment portfolio.
180,000 dollars invested but has very little in regular savings account.
As he showed me his new grand daughters picture I saw his food stamp card in his wallet.
I guess a couple hundred thousands is not much anymore-
devaluation and all.
My next door neighbor has 3 kids, receives free housing (voucher), heat assistance, free child care, food stamps, free bus card and a free cell phone w/70 minutes of free phone time each month. She claimed she ran her own “small business” and was able to receive over $4000 back on her income taxes. Taxes she has never paid. Every month she sells $300 of her food stamps.
There is a part of me that wants to buy those food stamps. $.50 on the $1.00 with no sales tax. In TN, that would be a savings of almost 60% on my food bill each month. I, however, use coupons and my husband and I never eat steak, shrimp, lobster, etc. I cook at least 6 meals each week, we take our lunch to work, I buy things in bulk when I can and I buy the weeks meals based on “what’s on sale?”.
I sat down and worked out what my household pays in taxes each year and found that we actually pay to fully subsidize my neighbors household and then some. You can imagine how proud I am that my tax dollars pay to subsidize a crack addict while I eat peanut butter, macaroni, beans, etc. You can also imagine my rage when she got a raise in her food stamps allocation.
BULL,ALL BULL:(
BEWARE All this government hand out stuff is all part of the plan for the invasion of your planet. First we soften you up, make you dependent, doubt your own abilities, argue fearfully amongst yourselves, then we attack. You foolish Earthlings are falling right into our trap and you don’t even know it !!!
Sorry, Tom, yes, it is a straw man. You have failed to demonstrate that this case even happened. Forget about the privacy concerns. We don’t need to know this woman’s name, but some more details wouldn’t hurt. Did she lie on her application? Was it approved in error? You don’t even know all the circumstances…and you’re trying to use this as some kind of test case? For what exactly?
(Just so you know, I did some Googling. I see your “media reports,” but no other information. I’m sorry, but media reports and anonymous e-mails are NOT credible sources. They may be right…but they’re not sources.)
And that’s not even touching the possibility that this case, if true, may be an aberration. Has that not occurred to you?
Let’s stipulate that this Mercedes lady did qualify for Food Stamps, despite appearing to be quite well off. Do you have a second case? Do you have a third? What percentage of Food Stamp recipients have 80K in the bank?
Taking an extreme, rare, isolated example and pretending that it’s somehow representative of the whole…well, yeah, that’s a straw man.
Herb,
You ask if it is authentic, and then say “Based on Ohio’s stated eligibility requirements, that doesn’t seem likely.” I think you have a typo there. I assume you meant to say “that does seem likely.” The guidelines you provided show that how easy it would be for this to happen.
First, the income eligibility is determined after deducting expenses, including a mortgage payment. Even somebody with a decent income could qualify for food stamps if they have a large enough mortgage.
Second, the consideration of savings and other resources is clearly not automatic. Possibly you didn’t notice, but it says “In some situations, the person’s resources such as cash, savings, stocks, and etc. are also considered when determining whether someone is eligible”. The key phrase there is “in some circumstances”. That language shows that is it possible to issue food stamps without considering a person’s savings or other assets.
As I said, I assume that you had typo in your post. If not, I would be force to conclude that you simply did not want to believe such a story could be true.
Herb, if you have some evidence that the source of this “media report” is lying, do present it.
If you think this case is an exception, you don’t get out much. Find your nearest big city and go hang out in any urban grocery store. Offer to bag people’s groceries for free (tell them you’re doing your part for Obama’s plan to re-shape America or something). Watch the people who pay with food stamps. Watch what items they purchase. Note the make of their designer jeans, the gobs of gold jewelry they wear and the expensive watches and Coach bags they carry. Take their groceries out to their car for them. Be amazed. Some folks won’t fit this model. Most will. Cases like this have become the rule, not the exception. I see it every single week when I go shopping. So do others around me, who are equally disgusted.
Having said all that, this issue will be the least of our problems now that Obama and the socialists in Congress have completely undone welfare reform.
14. Bill Perron wrote:
BEWARE…
Peter writes: I hate to say it, but that’s the most logical sounding reason for everything that has been going on that I have heard in months!
If one takes the time to actually prepare meals as opposed to taking some prefab item from the freezer, and nuking it in the microwave, it’s easy to live on less than $176/mo. for food.
Just for grins, pay attention the next time you’re in the grocery store checkout line. Whoever it is who whips out food stamps for payment will have a cart full of frozen pizza rolls, soda pop, etc., and I’ll guarantee there will not be a bag of flour, whole chicken, or other basic food stuff.
Why is that? Well, when you’re too stupid and lazy to get a job and support youself, you can hardly be expected to go to the trouble to cook for yourself.
“If not, I would be force to conclude that you simply did not want to believe such a story could be true.”
Oh, I can believe the story… What I don’t believe, however, is one case (whose circumstances haven’t been fully documented) is part of a “national trend.”
Nor do I think it’s intelligent to write an article that makes it seem like it. (Dishonest and factually wrong, definitely…)
Why? Because if you do, then you have people like goy saying ridiculous things like, “Note the make of their designer jeans, the gobs of gold jewelry they wear and the expensive watches and Coach bags they carry.”
Goy, you cannot buy designer jeans with food stamps. You can’t buy cheap jeans with food stamps. But that doesn’t stop goy from saying this: “Cases like this have become the rule, not the exception.”
Um, that’s NOT accurate.
“Cases like this” should be exposed and investigated, rather than hyped as some kind of representative scenario. Welfare fraud is NOT cool.
But not all welfare is fraud. Just ask Joe the Plumber.
Herb, what about the following ……
….. don’t you understand?
You’re embarrassing yourself by claiming in front of who knows how many readers that this person doesn’t exist. For your own sake, please stop.
As to this being an “aberration” and the need for a second and third case, please see #11 (a near copy) and #12 (a whole separate realm of abuse). And they aren’t even in OH, supporting the concern that this food stamp abuse is a national problem.
If the situation had been approved in error, a state legislator wouldn’t have proposed a bill to change the rules, as one has.
It was NOT an anonymous e-mail, because Mr. Hurley knows who the e-mailer is. The tip was provided confidentially, but not anonymously.
Finally, as to your question, “What percentage of Food Stamp recipients have 80K in the bank?” — Let’s broaden it. If even 3% of Food Stamps aren’t entitled to them in any given month or were made eligible by foolish rule changes similar to Ohio’s, that’s about 1,000,000 people ripping off an average of maybe $1,200 a year per person, or $1.2 billion. That 3% is probably very low.
Then there’s trafficking. Then there’s the payment error rate, which though not directly quantifiable in dollars, tends to be in the direction of paying out too much.
Like Zell Miller, I could go on and on and on ….
If you think things are bad with our government now just stick around awhile.
Herb:
“you cannot buy designer jeans with food stamps.”
Maybe you didn’t take any economics classes in college or high school, but here is a principle that you would have learned: MONEY IS FUNGIBLE.
Don’t be scared by that big word. All it means is that one pile of money is interchangeable with another pile of money. In other words, if I don’t have to use my money for food, then I can take some of my “food” money and spend it on clothing.
I just moved to Warren County. WooHoo! Free stuff!
- … you cannot buy designer jeans with food stamps
That’s kind of the point, Herb.
You’re starting to reveal your inability to reason here. If someone flaunts designer jeans, lots of gold jewelry, Coach bags and all the rest, they’re advertising the fact that they’re not in a position to need food stamps. That individuals like this are numerous enough to encounter every single time one shops for groceries indicates that this is a trend, not some isolated case.
Anyway, when you try the experiment I suggested, get back to us. If you’re not convinced, I can get you a temp. job cleaning bathrooms or working as a security guard at our local psych clinic. You’ll see and hear about all the things I mentioned above, plus a bonus: inner city gang members being bussed up here from their home turf to attend “group therapy” on drug abuse recidivism – bussing and therapy all at taxpayers’ expense, of course. Be sure to stay out of the way as they conduct drug deals in the lobby while clinic administrators turn a blind eye (hey, they’re being paid by the State).
Abuse of entitlements is not the “exception”, it is pandemic. Wake up.
House & car is paid for that good. Husband is getting SS ok utilties is paid. I agree they should not have too lose everthing to get help but 80.000 is more then 6 months of expenses & if it is not they they need to take some of those savings & pay expenses down. Disabilty vets who is getting compensation (not a pension) & SS is not eligible for help with the doughnt hole in Medicare when they still are paying off their house & single car. I know I paid bills & bought food put a child throgh school just on SS. It tough but before we were elegible for food stamps I could have very little in savings things really changed
1. People who are receiving food benefits who would seem to be inappropriately affluent are often foster care givers or guardians who have benefits for the children on the card, or receive the care giving stipend on the same EBT card.
2. Having said that, it is true that assets are not considered in re the SNAP (food stamp) application, only income. This is a consequence of the 2008 Farm Bill.
3. Most all state have changed from paper food stamps to EBT debit cards. I would want to check into any claim that food stamps are being sold to see if that state still even uses the paper form.
Well, at least many of these people have at one time or other been contributors into our system. How about the Gitmo detainees that are going to be let free into the US? I read today that they will receive welfare. I’m sure that will include food stamps, housing allowances, free medical care and anything else they want.
What you are completelly missing is that for most people in this situation, they have savings in the bank, and a mortgage payment to make, but are unemployed thanks to the politicians who ruined our economy so they could win an election. Yet, these are the very types of people who are PAYING THEIR MORTGAGES, trying to hang on to their houses, but they get no help from all the “let’s help the homeowner” plans coming out of Washington, because they don’t want to default on their mortgage and ruin their credit before someone helps them.
So, if they have to take food stamps to help them not lose everything, while Congress helps all the irresponsible fools who never should hav gotten mortgages in the first place, then I say more power to them, and get the food stamps if it helps you stay in your home, because the people who didn’t deserve this mess, and who were responsible are being completely ignored by the hacks in DC.
According to the federal food stamp site,IRA’s/401k’s, primary residence, and (in some states) cars don’t count against the asset test for recipients. Social Security counts but as unearned rather than earned income.
So, it looks like this family has managed its finances efficiently by maximizing or minimizing assets in a manner that creates the most positive fiscal effect for them in their relationship with the government.
You might want to find their names so that you could give them a call before you do your tax return. What’s the difference between managing your assets to qualify for food stamps and managing them to qualify for a tax deduction or credit. Social stigma? As one commenter said “money is fungible.”
Anyone who has a problem with this family should call their congressman and try to get the law changed instead of ranting against them for acting in their own best interests.
It’s interesting… Just over the ridge from me, in Hayward, California, people on food stamps have cars and cell phones.
In Livermore, CA, a cow town, people on food stamps not only don’t have cars or cell phones, but usually are homeless… What’s funny is they manage not to stink…
To 4. kywrite
I don’t know where you get your info but I’ve been on 3 posts where its written into the post rules “strongly discouraging soldiers from applying for food stamps”. To translate… we can’t stop you but we will make your life a living hell if the media finds out about it.
Herby, one would do well to take a look at the real world when thinking government follows the rules and there is no waste. Our welfare system is a drastic failure.
How do I get on on the SSDI gig?
In NYS, Eliot Spitzer (shortly before his disgraceful resignation), changed the maximum allowable savings of $15,000 to UNLIMITED. I went with my mother to apply for food stamps. Her monthly income is $1050 a month, which they said was too much of an income. They gave her $14 a month in food stamps. Her friend, who has savings of $600,000, but a monthly income of approximately $900 received $150 a month in food stamps.
The worker at the food stamp office said that it’s not unusual for her to process an application for people with savings in excess of $150,000. She thinks it’s outrageous, but it’s now the law in NYS.
How greedy can people be? If they have that kind of money, use it for food, instead of having the taxpayers pay for your food.
“21. Tom Blumer:
You’re embarrassing yourself by claiming…”
No, Tom, you’re embarrassing yourself by being dishonest and much too credulous about, how did you put it, “confidential” e-mails. (Your distinction between confidential and anonymous is laughable.)
Stipulating that this woman “exists,” your “confidential” source STILL is not telling the whole story. Like I said before, did she lie on her eligibility application? Did someone NOT do their due dilligence? Did the State have NO CHOICE but to give this woman food stamps?
This is IMPORTANT information, especially if you’re going to use this as a representative. Why? Let me spell it out for you: So we can know if this is an outlier case or the norm…
Now obviously you, and a lot of other commenters, have already decided it’s the norm…without the need for further evidence. Your ideology confirms it! Who needs actual evidence?
As to this…”If even 3% of Food Stamps aren’t entitled to them in any given month or were made eligible by foolish rule changes similar to Ohio’s, that’s about 1,000,000 people ripping off an average of maybe $1,200 a year per person, or $1.2 billion. That 3% is probably very low.”
Please….Stipulating that 3% (or 10%!) of food stamps recipients are frauds, that still leaves over 90% as legitimate! And yet, it’s a national trend that rich people are on food stamps…..
And I’m the one embarrassing myself?
To 23. Paul from Hamburg:
Yes, money is fungible. But food stamps are NOT money. Find me a store that takes food stamps for jeans and I’ll find you a thousand stores that won’t.
“To 33. Will:
Herby, one would do well to take a look at the real world when thinking government follows the rules and there is no waste.”
Who said there is no waste? Not me. Of course there will be waste. There’s waste in everything that the government does, not just entitlements, but the courts, the military, everything. It exists, and it should be reduced.
I’m just calling bullsh$% on Tom Blumer’s “national trend of waste” argument. It hinges on “confidential” e-mails, incomplete information, and willful ignorance of percentages. If he were trying to make his case to a non-partisan audience, they would laugh him out of the room. Good thing he’s preaching to the choir here on PJM.
Back to self entitlement issues,greed & baby boomers kids having kids = it’s all about… ME!
Now this is not true for everyone but it’s the vast majority out there. Sadly, some call themselves Republicans or Conservatives
I have been very,very poor but macaroni & cheese and whatever else was on sale helped me through. My husband & I still eat stuff like this. We are self employed. Need I say,more?!
In a nutshell, some humans have NO shame-
2. Cindy Sue Causey: $2.50/day, give or (mostly) take for food, $176 a month
WHERE DO YOU LIVE?
I’ve seen people using food stamps buying HUGE shopping cards full of junk food.
Maybe people need to learn the basics of cooking 101. There are a LOT of people who DO NOT KNOW HOW TO COOK. It’s pathetic! I cook almost everything from scratch and even though I don’t work ‘outside’ the home I do a LOT of work for our business INSIDE the home and also manage to scrub my toilets/showers/tile-grout and make healthy meals.
I’ve had a few neighbors who had husbands who toiled and labored all day to come home to dirty dishes and laundry to clean while their wives sat on their butts. I’ll NEVER understand that kind of mentality.
Rice, beans, pasta, potatoes, tomato sauce, soup base etc. are good staples and CHEAP too. The rump roast pot roast at Safeway here was $1.99 on sale here and I stocked up and sealed ‘em and froze ‘em. Being frugal doesn’t mean you have to eat poorly. Boneless, skinless chicken breasts are often on sale here for only $1.79 a pound here too and I stock up and seal it and freeze. There is no excuse for starving in this country. NONE.
We rarely ‘splurge’ any more by going out for a meal and I’m more than happy to cook a gourmet meal from scratch.
LEARN TO COOK and teach your children to cook. The gift of cooking is one of the best things you can teach your child/children.
The situation is MUCH worse –there is absolutely no deduction in the food stamp program for the fact the school age children qualify for the separate ‘free lunch’ programs — which include breakfast too. And abuse of that is rampant –my wife is a 20yr public school teacher and I get outrageous scoop all the time.
Additionally, yet another federal program pays for the school cafeterias (only in certain neighborhoods) to open in the *summertime* and feed all comers in the ‘community’ — not just school age kids either.
Its disgusting — no effort is made whatsoever to detect overlapping benefits.
The largest share of the political juice that fuels the Food Stamp program is not the recipients but agricultural interests, who don’t care a rat’s behind about how lush the benefits are for the non-needy, but are happy to see the program expanded at every opportunity to better support the sales of farm commodities. Good luck getting cutbacks through the legislature, especially in the current bankster free-for-all that scoops up 100′s of billions to feed the zombie banks. Total outlays for food stamps in recent years is between $35 and $40 billion annually, barely an “installment payment” in the recent AIG bailout.
I work with the poor and elderly. For reasons I haven’t yet investigated, a poor senior can expect between $10 and $15 dollars a month in foodstamps, while their able bodies children and grandchildren get $200 to $500 depending on dependents.
I have a disabled relative who receives $700 a month in SS benefits. This is to pay her mortgage, electric, phone, food, medicine, etc… She has no cable television. I thought she’d be a shoe in for food stamps.
Denied.
Because she (and the bank) own her rapidly deteriorating house. When she was well she got a 15 year mortgage and has paid quite a bit of it. But it has serious structural problems now because she can’t manage the upkeep.
Obviously, her state does not extend benefits to those with some assets. Seems a shame because her case seems like what this liberalizing of benefits ought to be targeting.
Re: the cooking advocate above. EXACTLY! Invariably the majority of people I see using foodstamps in the grocery store are seriously overweight and buying nukeit meals and Little Debbies. We’re paying for their diabetes and HTN treatment too.
Does the government check?Does the government worker care, sometimes!When it comes to checking anything, FDA,SEC, Immigration, etc, the government only does a passable job. You want real life examples, here is one. School administrator in charge of free and reduced breakfast/lunch program, new on the job. Mother fills out forum, only qualifies for reduced b and l. Comes in mad…..She is told that is what she qualifies for….Oh, I made a mistake, what do I need to qualify. Fills in new form, administrator’s supervisor says, go ahead and give it to her, we have no way of checking. This is 1983, do you really believe in this day and age with fake documents(see 1986 amnesty) that you will catch 10% of the cheats. Hell, after our big hurricane a few years ago, they just handed out money, NO check. If you are a minority, no one wants to check. Has anyone ever audited Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton. NO ONE CARES.
#36 Herb, thanks for confirming the following before who knows how many readers (even more, now that Instapundit has linked):
- That after all of this you don’t comprehend that based on the facts presented to the County, and the law and regs as they exist, the County HAD to grant this household food stamp benefits. Proof that they HAD to is in this article about how the County is considering pulling out of the program because they may not otherwise be able to do anything about this.
- That you don’t think the difference between “confidential” and “anonymous” is important. Ridiculous: “Confidential” means that Mr. Hurley knows who is making the claim, where that person works, and how that person is in a position to know. “Anonymous” would mean he doesn’t.
- That you think the majority or large plurality of people on food stamps needs to be well-off before anyone is allowed to consider it a POSSIBLE trend. You seem to have missed the question mark in the article’s title. I didn’t know that it was a trend when I wrote it, but had a pretty good reason to believe it was (you’ll notice that I encouraged readers to find out for themselves whether it’s the case where they live, and I hope they do; I would hope you support that). The comments here are reinforcing the belief that a trend exists. Despite your claims, I have NOT “decided that it’s the norm,” and it’s incredibly amateurish and intellectually dishonest of you to twist my column in that way. I resent it when people who are out of arguments (as you are) try to put words in my mouth that I never wrote or implied. The fact is that if more people are doing something than were previously doing something, it’s a trend. Maybe a significant one, maybe a weak one, but still a trend. Evidence since presented in comments here continues to support the contention that more people who are well-off are getting food stamps than the nearly zero who used to (see #35; thanks, Eliot Spitzer), pointing towards the idea that it is a significant trend.
- That you have no hesitation about continuing to embarrass yourself.
You can get yourself out of the corner you’ve painted yourself into any time by saying “I was wrong, I am sorry.” I, and I’m sure most others at this post, will generously forgive you.
The real issue ought to be why should any of us qualify for food (or anything) taken by force from another? Or why any of us ought to feel morally obligated to support anyone else?
44. Tom Blumer:
I doubt your explanation to Herb regarding the difference between anonymous and confidential are going to do any good. You’ll notice that Paul from Hamburg tried to explain “fungible” to him and he still hasn’t been able to wrap his mind around that complex idea.
Herb writes: “And I’m the one embarrassing myself?”
Sadly, yes. You choose not to see.
“Yes, money is fungible. But food stamps are NOT money. Find me a store that takes food stamps for jeans and I’ll find you a thousand stores that won’t.”
As was explained to you before, anything given in food stamps is something the recipient doesn’t have to buy with their own cash. Probably everyone reading has stood in line and witnessed folks buying steak with food stamps and then buying cigarettes, beer, and lottery tickets in a separate (usually larger) cash transaction.
You expect us to believe that if the gummint started giving out gas cards or “jeans cards” instead of food stamp cards, then people would drive around all day showing off their new jeans, all the while starving. The idea that the money they used to spend on jeans would then be spent on food simply does not occur to you.
Herb,
Look up “fungible.”
Herb wrote”This is from the actual guidelines from Ohio’s food stamp program:….
In some situations, the person’s resources such as cash, savings, stocks, and etc. are also considered when determining whether someone is eligible.”
He didn’t link it but I will. The only problem with Herb’s interpretation of that statement is that it’s wrong. They only check your assets if you are requesting emergency 24 hour approval…see section 5 on the page 2 of the application. That is the “some situations” referred to in the statement. I would imagine that anyone with substantial assets would not want to utilize the “emergency” clause.
If you go to the application guidelines under “What type of verification do I need?” you’ll see that…
“Most recent statements for any bank accounts(such as checking, credit union, savings)
Proof of ownership of vehicles(such as car, truck, motorcycles, boats,RVs)
Proof of current value of stocks/bonds, certificates of deposits, life insurance, trusts, annuities”
Are not checked off as “items required” when applying for Food Stamps.
Here’s the link
http://www.odjfs.state.oh.us/forms/file.asp?id=53924
As far as someone possibly “selling” their food stamps with the debit card method now in use? It is possible, someone simply gives the card to the person along with their pin number or goes with them to the store, for a fee.
Oh, and you might be interested in the “Do I have to be a Citizen?” section too.
44. Tom Blumer:
I’m glad Instapundit linked to your article. In certain circles (yours apparently) he’s the man. In others, he’s a literal joke. His web traffic doesn’t make up for his lack of credibility. (When is he “going Galt” anyway? Maybe after the state of Tenneesee stops signing his paychecks?)
- “Proof that they HAD to is in this article” Again, Tom, I remind you that media reports are not sufficient proof of anything. I can point to media reports that say just about anything: that Bristol Palin is the true mother of Trig, that UFOs exist, and that county commissioners were forced to give someone with 80K in the bank foodstamps. I’m not impressed.
- As to the confidential/anonymous trope… I think you’re confused. Anonymous means “not named or identified.” Confidential means “secret.” So yes…”confidential” is an accurate description of this mysterious e-mail source. But so is “anonymous!!!” The source was not named or identified!!!
And while it’s “confidential” to your blog buddy, it’s “anonymous” to anyone else. Your distinction does not impress me either.
- Putting words in your mouth??? Tom. The headline to your article says: “Food Stamps for the Well-Off: A National Trend?” I’m not putting words in your mouth… The headline writers are. (Perhaps you can change this one like you did the “Democrats started the recession” post.)
And don’t patronize me with the “You seem to have missed the question mark in the article’s title” nonsense.
Tell ya what, dude. I’m going to write an article too. It’s going to be called: “Tom Blumer: Hack?”
And when you cry about me calling you names, I’ll just say…”No, look at the question mark. I’m not calling you a hack. I’m just saying there’s a possibility you’re a hack.”
And when people in the comments section start saying, “Yeah, that Tom Blumer due is a hack,” then I’ll point to them, like you did, and say, “Evidence since presented in comments here continues to support the contention that Tom Blumer is a hack.”
- Hesitation on embarrassing myself? I’m a pseudonymous comment troll. It’s almost impossible to embarrass myself too much…
And apologize? For calling you out? Short answer:
NO.
This whole debate won’t matter in a year or two. At the rate things are going, the government will be completely broke and short of using the military to seize property and give it to these freeloaders, there will be no welfare. Everyone will have to get to work or starve. If you want real change to come to Washington, DC, take away the money supply.
#27 Merlin -> You are naive. (Thats a good thing, though)
They buy the items w/ EBT, typically expensive single items. (Think fungible gallon of milk). Then they bring them back w/ no receipt later that same day, typically when there is a different front end manager or store manager on duty.
FYI. I have been in groc. business and my wife is in groc. mgmt.
The people running these scams use social engineering attacks.
1. Loss prevention interactions are law-suit bait.
2. Returns w/o receipt are incredibly hard to deny w/o also being lawsuit bait.
They will know more about your corporation and it’s business partners than any employee in the place. They know which vendors have cash in their trucks (COD accounts or pop vending machines, etc).
They will:
Send in associate to ask to speak to the manager about quality of XXXX or attitude of checker XXXXX, get managers name, description and front end managers name, description, typical response time for irate customer call and dispute resolution process.
They will likely carpool or at least arrange to arrive in ‘packs’. While people are making their case for product return at the service desk, there will be several ‘shoplifters’, some obvious, some not so much working the store. The management team will be overwhelmed (DOS attack) with team members calling to report the shoplifters. A vendor will very likely be trying to deliver, so the back door needs to be open. Manager will have to either go after the shoplifters taking $250 in roasts and steak out the door while they deal with the obvious fraudulent product return or they will (almost always) authorize the fraudulent return or delegate authority downward to do so. Police will not investigate shoplifting after the fact even with an outside eyewitness and surveillance video showing both the taking and the license plate of the car they left in. The more fraudulent the people are, the louder and more aggressive they will be at the customer service desk. They WILL KNOW the managers name and district managers name and threaten to call them at home on the weekend to discuss this “OUTRAGE of not getting cash back when they paid cash earlier in the day and don’t need the product now that their family can’t visit after all”.
Once the EBT has been converted to either ‘in-store credit’ or cash, it is now fully fungible. The in-store credit can be sold, traded or further converted to cash via the same process at a different store.
This goes on every day in every grocery store in America and is well documented via surveillance video. Pay a little extra attention from now on and see how much of this you can now personally witness.
The real outrage for these comments is that our service members are paid so poorly that if there is a family involved, they almost certainly need WIC & foodstamps.
One other thing… If this story had been vetted by local media and they produced stories in which they indicated that they were unable to verify the particulars of my story, I would have run updates to that effect too. I ran two updates to the story as it was…and I received additional emails from my source who provided two other case stories that I didn’t feel was necessary to expose because the story was already out there.
I don’t oppose a safety net that protects the American people from sudden financial disaster that would prevent them from putting food on the table. I vehemently oppose subsidizing a lifestyle that relies on the government when the means to provide for oneself is available to that individual or family.
Period. End of sentence.
Yup.John Galt is showing up at the EBT line.I don’t imagine he shops at the high end places frequented by well off liberals.We proles have been waiting on him or standing in line behind him for quite a while.
He first showd up at H&R block after not marrying his girlfriend in order to get his friggin earned income credit.
The idea that we proles were going to be nice and not try to game the system for ourselves was kinda naive.
“Herb”: another David S sockpuppet? I for one condemn this wanton abuse of ACORN funds!
thats freaking great…just great…
a few years ago my GIRLFRIEND(important later) had brain surjury, and had to be off work for a year. about 1 month before the end of her restriction, she had back surjury. knowing we couldnt make it much longer on my 12k per year, we went to family services (the place to get food stamps and assistance here in Michigan).
She was refused service unless my income information was given. if you arent aware, there is no common law marriage or civil union in michigan. wich means, all her doctor bills i paid for, all her medicine i paid for, mean absolutly zero, no tax clain, nothing. to the state i am not responsible for her, but to family services (the state) i AM responsible for her.
long story short, my 12k per yr got her $12 in support. not $12 a week, not $12 a month, $12 dollars, period.
my car, an 1989 escort. my house, a $600 a month apartment. my job, 12k per year. wonderfull.
Congrats, Herb. You’re an official idiot. You’ll now, by your own standards, have to list the complete details, tax records and family tree of any members of the “circles” that Glenn Reynolds is considered a “literal joke”. Otherwise, it simply isn’t true. Be quick about it, too. Some of us have work to do, supporting those people that don’t exist.
And just who is “Herb”? Confidentially, it kinda sounds anonymous to me…please reveal your real full name and address and phone number so I can verify your posts.
57. John Galt:
Congrats, Herb. You’re an official idiot. You’ll now, by your own standards, have to list the complete details, tax records and family tree of any members of the “circles” that Glenn Reynolds is considered a “literal joke”. Otherwise, it simply isn’t true. Be quick about it, too. Some of us have work to do, supporting those people that don’t exist.
I am literally at a loss for understanding what constitutes a “fact” for people like Herb. My job (corporate strategy and risk management) requires that I be extremely factual in my day-to-day tasks, so I’m pretty sure what is and isn’t a fact, in general. But, when interacting with people like “Herb”, all that rigor seems to go out the window and we end up in “Wonderland” a la Alice. Lewis Carroll, prophet of post-modern America.
This has been going on for sometime. When I was back in Maryland one of my assistants was at work and a delivery truck pulled up. To my suprise it was a county truck delivering milk, cheese and other food stuffs to her. I asked what was that and she said it was from dependent mothers with children. She also asked me if I wanted some of the cheese as she had a refrigerator full.
Well I was aghast. Her husband made over 100,000 (this was back in the 80′s). He also had a part time job where he was a newspaper delivery service and had several employees. They lived in a $200,000 home.
Being upset because she was receiving benefits that someone else who really needed it got cut off I finally got thru to social services. I asked the clerk how come some one like that got free food and stamps. She said that they had checked and she deserved it. I asked to speak to a supervisor, was put on hold and then cut off. All attempts to call back met with a busy signal. It seems to me that social services knew full well all the assets this person had and gave her the stuff anyway.
This whole situation is infuriating, but particularly the table of “thrifty meals” costs. I am the primary provider for my family, and a full-time student at a rather demanding university. There are four of us, with frequent visits from family and friends at meal times. This, of course, necessitates a very frugal approach to life. We eat out rarely – emergencies or date night with the Oyster Wife – and for us we’re high on the hog if we spend $50 per week on groceries. Not per person, $50 total. So to see the government handing people $30 per week per person makes my eyes pop. My parents did more with far less even than I do now, it drives me crazy to see people slacking around on the tax money that my family spent generations struggling to build up. This cannot stand much longer. Oyster out.
HA!
That last one was classic Herb. If, as Herb says, anonymity is not credible, and, as Herb says, he himself is anonymous…
Absolutely classic.
I remember being mostly broke all the time, standing in line with my 3 for a dollar mac and cheese and some small portion of hamburger while the guy in front of me is buying a steak and paying for it with food stamps. This wasn’t an isolated incident, it happened all the time. Mentioning this to anyone usually got the answer “so go get on food stamps.” I figured that if I could feed myself and the family I should do so, so I never went that route. I must be a sucker.
Even with the debit card system in place today, there are plenty of ways to convert food to designer jeans and jewelry. Buying groceries for your friends and charging them half price works pretty well.
Nobody ever mentions this, but if your are a regular working Joe, you’re paying for your food 3 times. First, your taxes go to farmers to not grow food, artificially reducing the food supply to support higher prices. Once in the store, the higher priced food on the shelf is priced higher again as the store knows that X amount is available in food stamps and therefore isn’t subject to the normal rules that would apply if everyone shopped with their own money. So you pay for the farmer not to farm, you pay for the food stamp reciepients and then you have to play against them in the store at the checkout line and they have your tax money as a head start.
Herb is an idiot, but he is on SSI for his alcoholism and obesity, so he is very defensive here.
Leave poor Herb alone!
The questions we really ought to ask is, “Since when did it become taxpayers’ duty to feed someone else’s family?”
Herb is a potted plant? It’s just trying to earn it’s ACORN merit badge in sophistry. At this rate, it will take him at least 100 more years to make SAPLING.
#61 – Anon —
If, as Herb says, anonymity is not credible, and, as Herb says, he himself is anonymous…
Great point. You can’t make this stuff up.
#50 Herb –
I’m a pseudonymous comment troll. It’s almost impossible to embarrass myself too much…
You’ve “won” on that point, my friend. You can sleep well, secure in the knowledge that you are an embarrassing “pseudonymous comment troll.” :–>
@64. Rob S: - The questions we really ought to ask is, “Since when did it become taxpayers’ duty to feed someone else’s family?”
That one’s actually pretty easy.
It started in earnest when only selected portions of FDR’s so-called New Deal were found unconstitutional… and not the whole damned program. The “tell” was when he tried (and failed) to stack the Supreme Court with justices sympathetic to his aims.
But few were paying much attention back then and NO ONE remembers any of that now.
US troops don’t get food stamps any more because military personnel qualifying for food stamps is embarrassing to the military. Nowadays if a member of the military would qualify for food stamps due to a large family, they simply raise their pay to the level that would render them inelligible.
68. myth buster:
Let me correct that for you:
US troops don’t get food stamps any more because … if a member of the military would qualify for food stamps due to a large family, they simply raise their pay to the level that would render
them inelligiblefood stamps unnecessary.I’ve considered going “John Galt” and spending the next several years (or perhaps the rest of my life) flying kites at the beach.
Hiding my assets and using foodstamps and other government handouts are part of that strategy. It does no good to make eligibility depend on assets – assets are easy to hide.
Besides, I’ve paid millions in taxes. Why shouldn’t I collect some of that back now?
“66. Tom Blumer:
…
Great point. You can’t make this stuff up.”
Great point…if you’re just trying to score points. You neglect to mention that I’m not the one declaring a “national trend” based off a single atypical case. Am I not credible? Of course not.
But that’s not the issue. My byline isn’t on this article.
Did you ever find a second case to back up your “national trend” story, Tom? Did you find any more “evidence” in the comments here? (I mean…evidence for a national trend, not evidence that I’m a comment troll. I already pled guilty to that one.)
Come on, Tom. This is important. This will answer that “Tom Blumer: Hack?” question for good and all.
How f-in dare anyone out there make fun of Herb, after all he’s been through!? … He’s a human! … You’re lucky he even writes for you bastards! Leave Herb alone!
ChipD:
Quite right, how come we’re talking about abuse of food stamps when we should be dealing with the AIG bonuses? I truly thank you for bringing my attention to that last scandal, otherwise I might never have heard of it.
More to the point: I am not in particularly good financial straits, but nutrition is not a concern for me. I buy dried beans and rice in bulk, add whatever cheap veggies are available, and that consists of approximately 10 meals a week. If meat or poultry is being sold at a big discount, I might splurge. No, it’s not exactly gourmet cuisine, but it keeps me healthy and my stomach full.
Given that, there’s no way that I’ll even consider food stamps. And even if I had no choice but to apply for them, I still would have trouble looking at myself in the mirror.
However… as, in the midst of financial difficulties, more people feel that money is being unjustly extracted from them, and as they see abuse of welfare systems, they will start rethinking. If a productive, responsible, independent citizen’s standing is akin to that of a cash cow, and there is no stigma to taking advantage of the welfare systems, people will start succumbing to these perverse incentives.
And once the erstwhile productive citizens take advantage of welfare, down crashes the whole system. When that happens, the truly needy are those who will be hit hardest. Their plight will be almost as bad as that of my moral superiors, who will suffer intellectual disorientation regarding how their best intentions did not result in utopia.
#71 Herb, you have exhausted my well of civility.
The column ASKED if providing food stamps to the well-off is a national trend.
In response, commenters have provided several cases indicating that it may very well be:
- #11 — California, person with $180K
- #35 — the entire state of New York
- #53 — Matt Hurley’s contact provided him two similar examples from Warren County that he chose not to blog about. Hurley’s original post did NOT ID the county where the original case was located. Warren County officials themselves did that. Hurley was justifiably reluctant to reveal details that could be tied to a specific county.
- #59 — says it’s been going on for some time, meaning that regs designed to enable more people with significant resources to qualify are expanding what was already a problem.
The column encouraged readers to find out if well-to-do people are receiving food stamps where they live, and if it’s in response to recently loosened eligibility rules. Based on what is in the comments, there is reason to believe the phenomenon exists, and is growing. Hmm — that sounds like a …. possible trend.
Beyond that, commenters have provided several other examples of program abuse (#12, #40, #52).
At this point, if you still refuse to acknowledge the validity of the concern I raised, and the reasonableness of ASKING if it is indeed a growing problem in light of what was learned, I can’t help you.
I’m left to conclude that you have a self-imposed learning disability you enjoy flaunting in front of the rest of the world.
The fact that the family has savings and a paid off house indicates to me that they have been fiscally responsible for a long time and it also shows that they have paid taxes and probably lots of them. I maintain that they should get food stamps precisely because they have been paying into the system. If alcoholics, drug addicts, and those too lazy to work can get them why not hard working people who have fallen on hard times??? They are the ones that have been propping the darned system up all these years.
For some reason I can’t fathom, I became a welfare worker when I first graduated from college. I can promise you that welfare fraud is rampant. People had no shame about coming to the welfare office dolled up to the nines and demanding their food stamps or AFDC checks (this was in Florida before welfare reform). They have no shame in lying on their application. There is no longer any stigma at all, for anything. The people I wanted to help, I couldn’t because they did something stupid, like start a college fund for their kids, that made them ineligible. These were the folks in crisis that needed help temporarily, like the woman who left her abusive husband, had been living on her credit cards, and just needed a little help until she got back on her feet. The ones who made their lives from welfare had an open checkbook from the state.
I’m in Palm Beach County, Florida, and after Hurricane Wilma, when many of us lost the food in our refrigerators and freezers because the power went out, the government offered to help out by giving food stamps to whoever came down and said they lost their food to spoilage. Our power wasn’t out long enough on our street for our food to spoil, but that didn’t stop the majority of my neighbors from waiting in a line for hours to get their food stamps.
I don’t want a free ride from anyone. I would be embarrassed to use food stamps, even the EBT card.
It is widely acknowledged that Canada has one of the best social safety nets in the world. But it sounds like the American one is even better (or worse, depending on your point of view).
In Canada, no one can get social assistance if they own anything of any value, with the exception of a vehicle. An applicant has to sell their home, deplete their bank accounts, cash out their RRSP (Registered Retirement Savings Plan), and sell any other investments such as stocks or bonds, to become eligible.
To prove eligibility, bank statements, tax returns, and rent/mortgage statements are required.
It is really a last resort for people who have hit the bottom. Still, it is attractive to usually young, single people, often with small children who require child care, which is expensive but is also subsidized.
I support the idea of a good safety net/welfare program for people who need it. But it should not be too beneficial as to be preferable to working for a living. I also think that people who need help temporarily should be eligible for up to one year without having to divest themselves of everything they own, with the exception of cash savings.
I’m torn. On the one hand, hell yes they should use their own money and not my taxes to support themselves. On the other, they have paid in, unlike many who take out. I want to see welfare completely redone. With severe need, and time limits, and work requirements. You want food this week? You’re picking up trash 4 hours a day on roadsides. Something like that.
- I support the idea of a good safety net/welfare program for people who need it.
Sorry. That way lies madness. Because it never stops at just a “safety net”. Nice if it would, but it never ends there. We already have multiple levels, layers and forms of “safety net” in the U.S. They all suffer from various degrees of corruption, abuse and/or ineffectiveness. Every communist, “safety net” society of the past has ended badly. On the whole – if the UK and much of Europe are any indication – socialist societies aren’t faring any better, taking the long view.
But just as an experiment, please define need. Be sure to come up with a set of objective rules according to which that need is verifiable – rules that everyone can agree with, so that there will be no controversy later over who qualifies. Next, please explain from whom the wealth will be taken in order to provide for this need, and provide the rules according to which those particular individuals should allow their wealth to be taken (example: just because ‘they have it’ is not sufficient reason). Again, your rules have to be acceptable to everyone, not just the majority. Finally, explain who will administer this process, and be sure to include the mechanism that will guarantee that body remains uncorrupted.
When you’ve done this, you will have accomplished what no marxist or socialist has been able to accomplish in over 100 years. You will have successfully applied the insane tenet underlying marxist socialism, i.e., that wealth should be taken “from each according to his abilities, [and given] to each according to his need”.
All forms of social “safety net” are built upon this insane notion, which ignores – or assumes it’s possible to “re-engineer” – basic human nature. The initial motivation, of course, is always either genuinely or disingenuously altruistic. Whichever is the case, it doesn’t matter, because human nature is a prime catalyst for the Law of Unintended Consequences. Like our planet’s climate, human nature far exceeds human intelligence’s ability to comprehend, let alone control.
The discussion of evidence in this thread is a perfect example of how this works. The ultimate failure of every socialist form of economy – many past, some in progress – shows that ostensibly “democratic” exploitation of the wealthy minority simply doesn’t work over the long term.
In extreme cases, like Khmer Rouge Communism, the entire culture breaks down irretrievably through the outright persecution of the individual liberty and property necessary for individual productivity and prosperity. In less extreme cases, cultural apathy engendered by a “progressive” taxation system – which effectively punishes prosperity as President Obama wishes to do – leads to situations like we see in Eurabia, where European culture is slowly dying out and being replaced by something else. Finally, in nascent examples of this phenomenon, like the U.S., we see rampant abuse, corruption and subsequent, class-based resentment – not to mention manipulation by a growing professional political class for its own ends.
Rand was right about at least one very fundamental thing: no society will survive in which one is forced by the State to live for another’s benefit. That’s a slippery slope that presupposes someone in the society is just enough to make the necessary decisions. It also directly violates the theory of Darwinian Evolution (quite ironically so, given the so-called progressives’ almost religious devotion to it). That is, unnaturally supporting, promoting and perpetuating an inherently unproductive segment of society – one that is demonstrably incapable of caring for itself – will ultimately lead to an entire society that is incapable of caring for itself.
Yes, Darwin’s a bitch – even (especially?) for those who love him.
Oh, I thought you were talking about the Wall Street bailouts. I should have realized, you’d never be offended by welfare for the truly rich.
#81 Shef:
Wrong.
Next time before you comment, try to have some idea of what you’re talking about.
What HERB and all others like here are missing is the minute you establish a government program to pass out money…every TOM, DICK, and SUE starts gaming the system to cheat it, defraud it, to steal from it…..no matter the good intentions….why do the politicos always talk about waste, fraud, and abuse…
the best way is to end all such programs and go back to local neighborhood based charities…the locals will know who really needs help and who doesn’t..who is deseving and who is a POS….