Fiscal Cliff: The ‘Let It Burn’ Lobby May Be on to Something
It is very possible that even if the GOP leadership can come to a deal with Obama and the Democrats on avoiding the fiscal cliff, the LIB lobby will put so much pressure on House Republicans that the deal would be voted down. This would include any increase in the debt ceiling as well, although that vote may come early next year.
The problem for Boehner is that despite the insane nature of such a position — actually supporting the idea of allowing 10% across-the-board cuts and a $95 billion tax increase — the pyromaniacs may be right.
Daniel Henninger in the Wall Street Journal:
The only issue on the cliff negotiation table held true by every serious person is that the entitlement crisis is going to crush the country. But nothing is dearer to this president than higher taxes on people defined by him as the wealthiest. If the president’s DNA prevents him from a compromise that also includes a sequester-strength commitment to disarming the entitlement bombs, much less discretionary spending, take the sequester. Better the fiscal cliff than pitching the American people over the bottomless entitlement cliff.
Bottom line: Obama doesn’t want a “deal.” He wants victory. He wants the GOP’s head on a pike that he can parade around the capital while bragging to those liberal pundits whose approval he so desperately seeks that he has crushed the enemy, seen them driven before him, and heard the lamentations of their women.
With that in mind, the LIB lobby’s desire seems almost rational. Why negotiate with someone hell-bent on winning at all costs? Henninger points out:
The main reason there isn’t, and may never be, a solution on the fiscal cliff is that Barack Obama doesn’t know how to do a political compromise. Where in his career did Barack Obama ever learn the art of the political deal? Nowhere.
If a real deal with real spending cuts and real entitlement reform is unreachable for whatever reason, even the establishment would have to consider joining the pyromaniacs.
The more pragmatic establishment blanches at the thought of cliff diving, believing that the party would pay for this position in the 2014 midterm elections. There is some validity to that argument given recent polls. But the LIBs counter with the adage that it’s better to retain your soul and go down to defeat fighting for what you believe than cave on such a fundamental principle.
Would that political parties could afford such childlike purity. But despite its irrationality — a political party shouldn’t set out to deliberately create conditions for a crushing defeat — there is an overriding principle to consider as well: self-preservation. What would a full-monty cave-in on taxes do to the Republican Party, especially if it comes with no guaranteed cuts in entitlements? If Speaker Boehner believes he can herd his caucus to vote for precisely the issue for which he and other leaders have spent the last year saying they would never consider, he will have a revolt on his hands the likes of which have not been seen since the Goldwater rebellion of 1964. He may get the revolt anyway, given his milquetoast performance so far in these negotiations.
President Obama is going on vacation on December 17 and won’t return until January 6. Boehner should treat negotiations over the fiscal cliff with equal seriousness and adjourn on the 17th sine die until the new Congress is sworn in. Since the president has indicated that he will not respond to the GOP offer with one of his own, there appears little reason for the Republican leadership to stay in town and negotiate with someone incapable of reaching a deal.
While the art of compromise appears lost on the Let It Burn crowd, it is also apparently not in the president’s lexicon either. This leaves the firemen to enter the scene and bring down the curtain, playing “Light my Fire” by The Doors.
The time to hesitate is through
No time to wallow in the mire
Try now we can only lose
And our love become a funeral pyre
One lump or two?
Go for it.
Absolutely, go for it! Obama is playing a game, called “The Blackmailer’s Paradox”. In essence, he’s bluffing, and playing on the Republican desire to get something out of this sorry deal. The only way to defeat the strategy is to walk away — Obama gets his tax increase, but the President will always get blamed for the catastrophe that will follow.
And he must be held to the Constitution on the debt ceiling.
Re:
” Obama gets his tax increase, but the President will always get blamed for the catastrophe that will follow.”
Are you certain about that? That would be bucking Obama’s very successful claque called the Mainstream Media. The Media are the very pillars of Obama-ism.
Seems to me that we’re really immersed in a “damned if we do and damned if we don’t” script very skillfully manipulated here by this Obama chameleon.
His street-wise Chicago background is proving useful to his scheme of things?…or reverse the order…either way, America, we’ve got a Problem.
The Republicans should descend to the level of Obama and use some brass knuckles on testicles.
Like Larry the Cable Guy says – git er done!
I’m all for it. What the hell – lets see if this is ‘THE CLIFF’. FWIW I think it’ll be more of a annoying pot-hole on the road to the ‘real’ fiscal cliff. The real fiscal cliff is when we wake up some day to find there is nobody willing to buy our treasury bonds – ergo – no more borrowing. THAT is the real cliff my friends. The only reason anyone at all is loaning money to the USA is for lack of a better place to put it. When (not if) conditions become more suitable for investing money elsewhere we will become screwed – blued – and tattooed.
This ‘house of cards’ is feeling shaky – and damned if there ain’t a wind pickin up. The Mayans may have been right all along – they just didn’t know it would be money that hit us.
This is how big the problem REALLY is.
The house should just schedule a vote on the Democrats tax plan -
Oh wait, no bill has been presented for extending the middle class tax rates by the Democrats. If they actually get one, just vote present.
We cannot have our prints on this disaster.
Let the Clinton Tax Rates roll.
Boehner should just walk away. Caving is not negotiating. Standing on principle is nor a negative.
“not a negative”. Ever think about putting in an edit feature?
Of course RINO Boehner, a weepy eyed alcoholic, doesn’t have a principled bone in his body, therefore, he will not let it burn.
The only question is – will the RINO’s accede to what the Dems want, only to delay the implosion to a near term economic disaster, or just let it rip right now? In other words, why in heavens name would anyone, with common sense or principles, put off for tomorrow what is sure to happen anyway? And who cares if they are blamed for the fiscal cliff, they will be lamed either way! It is not as if those actively seeking to burn the economic house down will ever admit their complicity either!
The fact of the matter is that the Dems want nothing more than an economic implosion – http://adinakutnicki.com/2012/08/07/barack-hussein-obamas-deconstruction-plans-green-wise-via-the-economy-disarming-the-citizens-via-gun-control-connecting-the-dots-addendum-to-the-second-term-plans-of-an-obama-presidency-c/…so let it happen on their watch.
And after the rubble it will up to principled heavy lifters to pick up the pieces. And by the bye, this blogger’s entire economic fortunes are totally tied into the cliff she is commenting on!
But the cure will be much worse than the disease, if the RINOS save the Dems for political expediency!
Should the GOP walkaway? By all means.
The MSM and the Dems are salivating to get some Republican fingerprints on this, because everyone knows that the economy is going to keep sputtering no matter what this administration does. Like the movies, the Republicans might as well be pulling the bloody knife out of the murder victim they found on the floor just as the cops walk in. They’re all ready for the frame up.
Few people think beyond their eyelashes!
Walking awy is not only a juvenile reaction but in this case hands the dems and this administration a win by default. The administration gets its tax hike on the rich AND the middle class plus a very top heavy slash to defense and some social programs.
So now what? Pretty simple! First the president introduces a bill for a middle class tax reduction — to be known as the Obama Tax Plan For the Middle Class. Next the president introduces a bill to restore social program cuts until reforms can be discussed further down the road. Next, the president will petition congress for and increase to the debt ceiling. Then of course theres the thing of military pay and benefits. In the meantime what will be the cost to the taxpayers for this little circus performance?
Of these Immediate things to happen the moment after being sworn in, which of them is in the best interest of the GOP to vote against?
The fiscal cliff is not a win by default. It was previously agreed upon and passed as a backstop against a runaway deficit.
There’s another option, but it has to be done at the level of the states: an orderly bid for secession.
Anybody checked lately to see whether there’s anything left in the four boxes of liberty – soap, ballot, jury, and ammo?
Just askin’…
Wait until August, then we’ll find out. Why August? Because that’s when the government starts persecuting the Catholic Church (unless something intervenes between now and then).
So, walking away is now juvenile? Is that what you called it when the Democrats ran in Wisconsin and when they walked out in Michigan? Or, was it standing on principle then?
I’m sorry but if you’re haggling and the other guy won’t lower his asking price or meet you half way are you going to just throw your money at him in order to appear “grown up”? No. You would pocket your money and walk away, either he will smarten up and actually start bargaining properly, or he gets nothing.
Giving the Democrats what they want is useless and what has gotten us here in the first place. Let it burn and do every single thing possible to make sure everyone knows the Democrats own this. Make sure that when you look up who voted for a bill there isn’t a single R beside anyone’s name. If so much as a single Repub votes for their garbage then no matter how bad it fails then it’s our fault. But if we abstain 100% then we might be able to actually win an argument for once.
Obama and the Democrats dont really care about taxes on the rich, nor do they really care about winning the current fiscal battle. What Obama and the Democrats really want is the power to be able to radically transform the US into a socialist country. To do that, they need to take back the House in 2 years. To do that, they need an issue that the liberal MSM can use to upset enough low info voters to win. That issue will be : Republicans are just a bunch of obstructionists who care more about the rich than they care about you.
Republicans should give Obama his tax on the rich so that he cant use it against them in 2years. They wont get anything else from this President, nor should they even bother trying. As long as Reoublicansdont block this specific issue, the Democrats will have a tough time making the obstructionist label fit. And then Obama and the Democrats will have to take ownership of the dismal economy in 4 years.
Democrats NEVER have trouble making the obstructionist label stick. They’re still blaming Bush, and the public is still buying it. The public still doesn’t realize the Dem-controlled Senate has not passed a budget since The 0 became president. The Dems have convinced The People that it’s the Republicans who are “do nothing.”
The Republicans need to start talking about all of the sacred cows that will die if there are no changes in SS, Medicare, etc. Then walk away from the president that doesn’t care to compromise or negotiate. At least that way there WILL be spending cuts.
Next, send to the Senate a bill that will reenact ALL the “Bush tax cuts.” Let the Senate refuse to help the middle class.
To do that, they need to take back the House in 2 years. To do that, they need an issue that the liberal MSM can use to upset enough low info voters to win.
No need. Tea partiers and neanderthals like Akin will be more than enough. A constant low level buzz associating fringe idiocy and the GOP. If the media is dishonest then all they have to do is portray some if you who post here as pretty typical republicans.
Here’s the problem – The media really has nothing but contempt for rural America and her voters. They are by and large the ones who have tuned out the media, and they are the ones who continue to vote red. It seems we are at an impasse because the urban vote can only be Gerrymandered so far.
Let it burn, better Nero should continue to fiddle than give in to his dictatorial ambitions.
Boehner needs to walk away. Put Obama’s plan on the floor, all the GOP vote “present” and let the dems own it.
If they get one GOP vote, the media will call it
bi-partisan”, like they did with Obama care. Just have everyone vote present or change parties.
If no Repubs vote yes, then it will only get a plurality of yes votes.
Can a budget bill pass the House without a true majority?
We haven’t had a budget in three years. Who’d notice?
This has been my position all along. Introduce the bill in the House, all Republicans vote “present” and walk away for the holidays and let the Dems own it all. If you don’t object or don’t agree, how can you be described as obstructionist?
I sent several emails to Boehner’s office and all I received was his usual clap-trap standarized reply that had nothing new to add other than the usual crap.
Obama does indeed want to parade around the country and the world with the literal head of Republicans on a spear, riding the chariot down the Roman column lined to the approving roar of the crowd. Only Obama will not have the slave standing beside him, whispering in his ear that fame and glory is fleeting. He truly believes he is invincible and cannot be touched. Let him believe and let him see.
Vote “present” and go home for the holidays. Let the Democrats own the entire package or Pandora’s Box if you will.
There’s really no way for conservatives to “win” right now, so the only reasonable thing to do is stand for principle and take defeat on our own terms.
I quote Winston Churchill:
“The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays is coming to its close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences.”
The problem is that as soon as all the taxes go up the democrats will propose a bill to immediately lower the tax rates for 98% of the country. This will put the Republicans in the untenable situation of having to submit or say no, for the wealthiest 2% we will make everyone suffer- this would be fatal in 2014. That’s Obama’s game.
That’s really no different from what’s happening right now.
Once again, all Republicans should vote “present”. Let the Democrats own it all.
When one side refuses to negotiate in good faith, compromise is impossible. The GOP leadership should have figured this out a long time ago.
In 2011, coming off their big victory in the 2010 midterm elections, the GOP had the opportunity to get the defeated Dems to agree to a real deal. In fact, the Dems offered hundreds of billions of dollars in spending cuts in exchange for tax increases.
It was the GOP base who refused to deal with the Dems, saying that no Dem promises of spending cuts could be believed. Back then, the story from the GOP base was exactly the same: No deals with Dems that raise any taxes, walk away.
Because twice before we agreed to such a deal, and twice we were burned when the spending cuts never materialized. No more negotiation in bad faith.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me over and over and over again…
You’ve completely rewritten history to match Obama’s delusions.
Try reading the other replies to my post.
They confirmed my point, as does the archive of RedState.com from 2011: “No deals with Dems that raise any taxes because the Dems can’t be trusted to keep their word on spending cuts.”
The GOP base remains wedded to “starving the beast,” which has never worked. (No tax cuts have ever forced major spending cuts, not ever.)
It’s because we have long memories. We would have made the deal with immediate spending cuts. But, we know the art of the Democrat compromise. It’s always – We get what we want right away; we promise you what you want in about 10 years. We all vote on it, and it’s bipartisan! Hooray! BUT … what was promised in 10 years is never made good by successive Congresses.
Find me some instance that contradicts that basic truth.
WHAT GOP leadership?
WHEN Boehner caves, and he will, it will be seen as a total repudiation of conservatism and as an admission that low taxes and small government were to blame for the fiscal crisis. It is a de facto repudiation of the very things the Republican brand is supposed to stand for. It will be taught in every classroom for the next 100 years (if we last that long) that Reagan was wrong and FDR and Obama were geniuses who saved the country.
I am sick to my stomach now.
Ya think Boohooner will cry for the media again?
I sure hope not. Let’s just say that emotional incontinence is just as much a sign of babyishness as is the fecal variety.
You are forgetting that the other side are committed to an economic theory with a built-in expiration date. Thatcher famously called it running out of other people’s money. So it has always been, and so it will be with this bunch too.
Mr. Moran
I think you misunderstand. “Let It Burn” is not the same thing as “Burn It Down”.
Let It Burn means honor the election and let the voters have the full effect of reelecting the worst President in history and let them have it good and hard without trying to save them from the consequences of their actions. The bad stuff is going to happen anyway so stop trying to delay the inevitable.
Go over the cliff. When everyone gets a smaller paycheck on January 1, blame the Obama tax increases. Make him own it. Our taxes go up while Dear Liar parties in Hawaii.
Yes!
Obama is getting an increase on his Presidential EBT card, while his peons pay for his parties.
yes !
I don’t know how many of my fellow citizens voted for their senators and representative to spend money like drunken sailors on a coke binge but I didn’t. When Obama said that at some point you’d made enough money I took him at his word and plunged off my own fiscal cliff. I cut my reportable income back to the point that I joined the 47% and I don’t plan on paying income taxes again until Santa Claus balances his checkbook.
The Community-Organizer-in-Chief believes he can crush the Republican Party and keep it in the minority for the next century. He also thinks the easiest way to do this is to do exactly what he is doing with the complete acquiescence of what passes for the MSM in this country. Don’t forget that part of 0′s “bargain” is control of the debt ceiling by the Executive Branch.
No. Let the fires begin.
Absolutely correct! Republicans will loose either way so let’s let the divider in chief stick to his guns and further destroy the economy. By the way, has “he” said what programs he will cut yet? Of course not…… “we have to pass it so we can see what is(n’t) in it.”
If Obama follows his usual pattern in getting what he wants, he will simply declare himself the right to set the debt limit – that is set the limit on his own – and wait to see what happens. Children do this all the time with teachers and parents. What he has learned so far is that no one will seriously challenge his actions – carp about it, yes, but do nothing.
De facto capitulation.
F**k Em. And let the chips fall where they may.
This is like an episode of Fawlty Towers with actors from the off broadway unemployment rolls.
The Republicans need to walk away. They should not concede their policies for the benefit of Obama. (Oh, and speaking of RINOs or conservatives in name only, Harper has now agreed to the Chinese take-over of the oil sands company, Nexen. Good grief. Chalk another one up to the Commies.)
Let it come. We all knew it would be like this after the election. Just like last year’s debt ceiling deal. GOP would be good to just walk away. With 4 more years of this administration, GOP will be begged by the people to come back in power. If we last that long.
If we last that long
Sometimes when a house catches fire and the firemen put out the fire before the house is totally destroyed it is cheaper to bulldoze the remains and build something new rather than repair the damage.
Until the Bubble People come up against the hard wall of reality and realize Santa Claus isn’t a real person, nothing will change. I don’t expect the Democrats (or anyone else in DC) to tell their voters that we’re out of other peoples money and there will be no more free stuff but nevertheless that’s where we are today.
We went over the fiscal cliff a long time ago. We over spent our allowance 16 trillion dollars. Can that be paid back when nobody in DC has the balls to say we’re out of other peoples money and there’s no more free stuff. I don’t think so.
Let’s bulldoze the remains of this fire and start over. It won’t be pleasant but neither is the alternative
With 4 more years of this administration, GOP will be begged by the people to come back in power. If we last that long.
Exactly four years ago I thought the American people would be begging for ANYONE but this ass-clown as president and would willingly elect just about anyone. Now I’m no longer so sure about my fellow man.
I’m beginning to feel more and more like a kid these days (I’m 65) with a book of matches in one hand and a can of kerosene in the other and arson in my heart. If Obama wants to dive off this piker of a cliff lets go. I don’t think it’ll be that big of a deal. And when the debt ceiling raises it’s ugly head early next year simply refuse to talk to him. Two can play this game. Let him negotiate with himself.
Exactly four years ago I thought the American people would be begging for ANYONE but this ass-clown as president and would willingly elect just about anyone.
I’ve said since the McCain loss that regardless of how bad Obama is, people loathe social conservatives even more. Romney’s loss was guaranteed by Akin just as McCain’s loss was guaranteed by Sarah Palin. Of course, this statement will meet “gales of stupid laughter” (Idiocracy reference) on this web site. Romney was otherwise very electable and respected. Even when the biased debate moderators tried to capitalise on Akin’s stupidity, Team Romney took it in stride and stayed on message. It wasn’t Team Romney that lost. It was the bleating masses of social conservatives and tea partiers who managed to disgust the public.
Want an example? Scroll down to message #38 and we have vague racism and class warfare on display. When thousands of idiot voices like #38 are popping up on message boards all over the internet, it’s not long before the realisation sinks in that while Romney himself might be good for the country, many in his party are not.
Essentially the GOP is going to be like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football and continually falling for the same trick; it’s not looking like the republican leadership — which knows what to do here — has the spine to jettison the social conservatives once and for all. So long as the GOP takes the social conservatives seriously, the left could run Charles Manson for president and win.
With the internet, it is getting more and more difficult for either party to hide its extremists as they often are the ones who most want and need to be heard. They can now re-enforce each other, in turn, setting off the other side and its extremists, even more, hence the heightened tribalism of our current climate. As people age, they tend to become more conservative; certainly I have, but having to join the company of right wing loons does not facilitate the process.
If the Republicans can’t win running social conservatives, the country can go to Hell. Let me spell it out for you: we have no interest whatsoever in preserving your liberty or your property if you want nothing to do with us and are perfectly content to sell out the unborn, the elderly, the sick, and other “unwanted” people. As far as I’m concern, your ilk deserve Obama and friends. Know your place. You can hate social conservatives, or you can win, but you can’t do both, and if you attempt to do so, we want you to lose everything to the communists. You deserve it!
mythbuster — The notion that the GOP requires the social conservatives to win is believed only by the social conservatives and their enablers. In truth this is upside down; the GOP cannot posssibly win *with* them. They/you are statists and are the antithesis of freedom and of the GOP. While I understand that losing the last two presidential election cycles hasn’t made that clear to you right wing statists, it is becoming clear to everyone else.
If “freedom” means sucking the brains out of defenseless babies, then you’re right, I want no part in it, and I will do everything in my power to crush it. Like it or not, however, we are 10% of the electorate, at least, and we WILL prevent you from winning elections if we don’t get what we want. Give me one good reason why we shouldn’t let the Communists win and kill you all? Because they would kill us, too? We’ll go straight to Heaven as martyrs!
Let it burn…. Democrats want higher taxes and class warfare… fine. Let them own it.
Boehner should announce he will put whatever plan the Dems write that doesn’t give the Exec carte blanche over the debt ceiling before the House, and that he advises all Republicans to vote present. Send it to the Senate, waive the 60 vote rule, vote present and let them own it.
OBTW, then when the debt ceiling gets close tell ObamaRx to take a flying leap at a rolling doughnut.
The problem is, a ten percent cut across the board isn’t a serious proposal.
iow, neither side is arguing about preventing the house from burning down.
They’re betting on just how long it’ll take to burn to the ground. A ten percent cut only slows the fire, somewhat. It doesn’t put the fire out.
otoh, the ‘let it burn’ lobby better think about the real world consquences. The results will make the L.A. riots look like a walk in the park on a sunny day. Only this time, the rioting will be all over the nation …and coming to a neighborhood near you.
When a house becomes so infested with termites, eating away at the supports, foundations, floors, etc… what do you do? We are past fumigation. Ain’t PC. Too many parasites and termites infesting, too much damage has been done. Time to burn it and scrape the landscape clean.
What gets built in its place… ahhh… now there is a question. I say go back to the founders for the blueprints. If you will… In modern terms… reboot with the original operating system (America 1.0 v 09.26.1789). It is that version that guarantees the right to keep and bear arms. Which would take care of the rioting problem coming to a neighborhood near you. Personally, if Constitution Hall was spared it would not bother me in the least to see center Philadelphia burned to the ground. Or center LA, or….
If the military follows its oath to preserve the constitution instead of backing these socialist traitor politicians we will be fine. But, that is the wildcard here.
Well, why do you think Obama just went through a purge of the generals?
But it won’t be the generals who will be making the choice between firing on Americans, doing nothing, or turning on the Administration. That will be the colonels, the captains, the lieutenants and the enlisted men. And I mean the infantry men, not desk jockeys.
It’s coming no matter what, the only question is the exact timing.
I’ve thought about the real world consequences. They’re coming. It’s only a matter of when.
Whatever the consequences, it is far more irresponsible to continue at this insane level of government expansion with borrowed money. Obama is not interested in compromise. Therefore, do we have another choice? Cave? Can you look your child or grandchild in the eyes knowing you are giving them into bondage to The State?
The underlying problem is that a third of the budget is wrapped up in geezer pensions and medical. Back in the day social security was a mathematical win: give SS to the retired at 65; life expectancy is 68. Two to three years of collecting. We can handle that. But now, people live to 80+ and the collection of benefits is 10 to 15 years. Whoooops. Big problem. People are living beyond the capacity of the initial design of the program(s).
Obamacare wouldn’t exist save for the same problem. Some dizzying outlay of medical expenses, as in 85% or more, are in keeping geezers ticking for an extra year or two. The average 30-40 year old who’s paying for it doesn’t need $1500 worth of health care a month. The average 30-40 year old is healthy and not really using the money for health care. Hell, having a baby is $3k and the baby visits are say 4 x $150 the first year or two. Do you really need to pay $1500 a month insurance for that? Of course not. The 81 year old needs that much just for some of the meds, and the 81 year old is no longer able to pay for this. That’s where the money goes.
Nobody wants to admit that SS and medicare etc were designed to allow for 2-3 years of retired comfort and nobody wants to be seen as mean to grandma.
A lot of the far right screeching about obamacare needs to calm down and address that which can realistically be addressed. All of this fiscal cliff crap is simply nonsense.
Let it burn. It’s the only option that gets any spending cuts.
Bingo.
Falling for the ole tax increases now and entitlement reform later, amnesty now and border security and immigration law enforcement later, etc…is just plain stupid. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me over and over and over again…
Ironically, the left-wing of Obama’s party–like the folks at Daily KOS–want precisely the same thing as you do, but for different reasons:
No negotiations, let’s go over the fiscal cliff.
They want that, because it will raise taxes on everybody (including the middle class), which the Left believes is necessary. And as some of them said, slashing military spending will prevent any more “military adventurism.”
I think going over the cliff means that Obama will start collecting the extra taxes which come back into force. He will also refuse to stop the spending and dare Congress to impeach him and remove him from office if they don’t like that.
As long as the major media outlets refuse to denounce Obama for violating the constitution, Congress will let him stay in office and do as he pleases. We’re at the same point as the ancient Romans were when Julius Caesar was strutting around Rome refusing to do follow the well-known rules of the Roman republic. Who was going to tell Caesar to straighten up and fly right when all the Roman soldiers obeyed him and no one else? Similarly, who is going to stop Obama as long as the media slavishly repeats whatever the white house tells them to? Does the average voter have any idea what is constitutional and what isn’t? All they need is their voice of authority (the columnists and the TV talking heads) to say that it is all just a matter of differing opinion whether or not spending actually has to be cut, and Obama has exactly what he wants — higher taxes and no drop in spending.
If in fact Obama actually wants to eviscerate the US military, he could confuse the issue further by cutting spending there and no where else.
The math is very simple. To pass legislation over a presidential veto requires a two thirds vote in both houses of Congress. The current law is that the taxes go up on everyone next year. To prevent that requires a new act of congress to rescind the end of the Bush tax cuts. That means that whatever the Congress passes has to have the president’s approval or the approval of two thirds of both houses of Congress.
This leaves the Republicans with two realistic choices. They can go along with the president and make a small increase in the tax rate for those making over $250,000 a year or they can refuse to pass the president’s proposal and let taxes go up on everyone.
The truth is that the Republicans have no other choices. The Democrats hold the winning hand in this game. In fact, if the taxes go up on everyone because the sides can’t agree to a deal, they can say with some justification that the Republicans allowed that to happen rather than impose a small tax increase on the very rich.
The irony of this is that this is about the only way the Democrats can get substantial tax increases out of Congress without suffering political fallout.
The Democrats like to spend money so they like higher taxes. Political reality imposes a certain amount of restraint. What the recalcitrant Republicans are proposing to do is to simply hand the Democrats a tax hike with no political cost. It is politics at its most irrational.
Factor in the debt ceiling before you decide that the Dems have the ‘winning hand’. There is such a thing as winning the battle but losing the war. Let the Dems ‘win’ this battle – let them drive us off this little fiscal cliff. Thats a laugh anyway. The big one is coming – it’ll happen suddenly and everyone will be saying “Well I didn’t see that coming”. But they did – they just didn’t see it clearly because we are such a short-sighted society. The sh*t will hit the fan big time when we can no longer borrow money. Big trouble starts then. The Dec. 31st cliff? A piker by comparison.
The 50+ percent who voted for obama paid no attention to Republican warnings…thinking obama is some messiah. The coountry will suffer but maybe the US needs some “tough love”
I thought messiahs were not supposed to be retarded.
LOL
Call me crazy….but as I see it there’s only one chance, and that’s first of all to grow a pair. Boehner, “Mr. President, we are afraid what may happen if a deal isn’t reached. You won the election, and for the good of the country, we are going to support whatever you think best.” No fingerprints, and we’ll see how many demo’s start getting a little more crazy than they are usually. How many of them voted for his last budget? Let THEM squirm for once.
Don’t let it burn….nuke it. It’s the only way they can’t spin it to win it, and sadly the only way the “low information” voters will start paying attention, (when they’re trying to choose between dog food or cat food for the evening meal). Painful yes, but the alternative is way too horrible to consider. Besides, we Americans will prove once again that we are made of sterner stuff….let the rebuilding begin.
Just so you don’t think me mean with the dog food comment, I’ve been eating peanut butter and jelly for lunch for over two years now, dog food is looking better and better.
Q: What is a dirty shame?
A: When a busload of politicians go over a fiscal cliff and there’s an empty seat.
…dog food is looking better and better.
Think of it as Pâté.
Honestly, where is your spine, Boehner?!
Who cares if we go over the cliff? Let’s put it in perspective, even with these cuts and tax increases, we will still be running a quite massive deficit. So if these cuts and raises are unpalatable, how in the world can anything else serious EVER be palatable to Mr. Moran and his ilk. Let’s be serious – if the sky will fall in due to this fiscal cliff that still leaves us fiscally unsound in the long term, isn’t it better for the sky to fall in now rather than later? The longer we wait to unwind, the more violent that unwinding will be.
Don’t give Obama a thing, except the tax on the wealhiest. They can afford it and if they give him that, then the economy, fiscal cliff, etc. will be his baby.
Agreed. Give Obama that and take away his mantra. We know he has no ideas other than this and he is bludgeoning the Republicans with it.
Got to know when to walk away
And when to run.
And Alex, as long as we’re doing lyrics, I’ll take Romney campaign themes for a billion:
Would you like to swing on a star
carry moonbeams home in a jar
and be better off than you are
or would you rather be a mule
A mule is an animal with long funny ears
he kicks up at anything he hears
His back is brawny but his brain is weak
he’s just plain stupid with a stubborn streak
and by the way if you hate to go to school
You may grow up to be a mule.
What, too late, what do you mean, too late?
Sign me up for the let it burn lobby. It’s gonna happen now no matter what. It’s no longer a question of “if”, but rather “when”. I say let’s get it overwith. Oh yeah, and Boehner’s an incompetent buffoon. Just thought I’d throw that out there.
I was so devastated by election results that I jumped on a bandwagon of LIB for a while.
After careful consideration of the options and potential fallout I carefully stepped on the ground back again. And then back on it..
I think everyone agrees that there is no “good” solution for republicans right now.
We need a clear republican leadership position on the issue, just like Obama’s. And we need all republicans to support it, even if goes against our personal beliefs.
I pledge to support either going over fiscal cliff (stated right now, if our demands are not met) or giving Obama everything and making him own it, like Madland suggested.
What I definitely don’t want to see is an “evolving” republican position, where Boehner will at the end succumb without getting _any_ credit for doing so.
One way or another – republicans in the house need to grow a pair, and we, imo, should support their decision, regardless of what it is, even if we personally disagree with it.
Staying solid together – that’s the test for the Republican party right now. I think we can do it. We have a country to save.
I think the ‘test’ for the GOP now is getting back conservatives. ’06, ’08, and ’12 proved that the GOP cannot win without conservatives. ’10 proved that conservatives can win without the GOP.
The GOP can keep Boner and Rince ‘n Dry and keep losing elections or they can retire and go back to a leisurely life of comparing Episiotomy scars while the GOP celebrates the return of conservatives with victory in ’14.
As I said – I’d support _any_ GOP position as long as _it is stated right now_.
So tell me who is waiting for your support?
I hope Scott Brown and the GOP, am I mistaken?
’06, ’08, and ’12 proved that the GOP cannot win without conservatives. ’10 proved that conservatives can win without the GOP.
It’s cute how the only people who think this are self-described “conservatives” posting here that are a GOP minority. 08 and 12 show that the GOP cannot win when these “conservatives” help or drive.
And no don’t bother trying to drag up poll data. What those who come here mean by “conservative” is fringe right wing, not close to mainstream definitions.
In a nutshell the message the Republicans have failed to grasp:
“Better the fiscal cliff than pitching the American people over the bottomless entitlement cliff.”
I think the basic mistake being made here is thinking that there is some “fix” that will save the economy. There isn’t. The system is too far beyond the design margib to save it. No matter what the pols do or not do, there will be a crash. The only difference an agreement of any sort will make is in how long that crash is delayed.
When faced with the inevitable, one either accepts or prepares. I’m prepared, how about you?
“the vice of capitalism is unequal sharing of prosperity, the virtue of socialism is equal sharing of misery”
Who on here can ‘honestly’ say they have a fix
*2011* Federal governments departments, agencies and corporations excluding defense, HHS, treasury, Intelligence and social security which are listed separately:
$802 B
$710 B – Defense
$890 B – HHS Including Medicare & Medicaid
$540 B – Treasury including interest
$780 B – Social Security
$75.4 B – NIP & MIP Intelligence
$3.8 T – TOTAL
$14.8 T – National Debt
$13 T – GDP
“The only difference an agreement of any sort will make is in how long that crash is delayed.”
That’s obviously not true. The other major difference is WHO WILL BE BLAMED FOR THE ECONOMIC CATASTROPHE that will ensue from raising taxes on everybody during a recession and slashing spending indiscriminately. We all know the answer to that. What you “Let It Burn” geniuses are really advocating is for the Democratic Party to dominate all three branches of the Federal government for the next thirty years or so. This would effectively destroy our country. Your contempt for Obama has unbalanced your reason to the point of insanity. We CANNOT just hand the governing of our nation over to the Democrats in a fit of pique.
And for what? For raising taxes on 2% of the population a whole .04%??? Are you people serious? Are you all rich people? Are you conservatives who want to save our glorious nation or are you trolls working for the democrats? I am not rich and never will be and I could care less about a miniscule increase in taxes on a group of wealthy people who actually VOTED FOR OBAMA. I mean how stupid do you have to be to actually destroy your own party and the future of our country BY FIGHTING FOR the people who voted for and financed the election of this traitor in the White House??? Seriously.
The answer to the Republicans negotiating problem is obvious. Preserve the REPUBLICAN BUSH tax cuts for 98 per cent of the country. Take credit for getting the Democrats to see the justice and wisdom of cutting taxes especially during a recession. Point out that we sincerely believe that the Presidents plan will hurt the economy in the near future and then reap the credibility when that happens. In other words live to fight another day. And who is going to complain? The two per centers who voted for this charlatan knowing he would scapegoat them?
We can and will win in the long run. A minority of our countrymen are hate filled socialists who would use every trick in the book to pay back the evil empire. The majority of Americans are sensible people who are seriously under informed about the reality of nations finances. We know why that is, we know who controls the media of this country. Fight, don’t surrender. You wouldn’t be conservatives unless you like a good long hard struggle. Otherwise you would have joined the Borg-like Left a long time ago.
At ease.
Do you honestly think that we are going to report the crash in any way other than it being entirely the fault of Republicans?
Were you asleep for the last few years?
What you “Let It Burn” geniuses are really advocating is for the Democratic Party to dominate all three branches of the Federal government for the next thirty years or so.
As long as the republican brand is associated with tea partiers in social security purchased scooter chairs and genius social “conservatives” like Akin of Misssouri this is already guaranteed.
It’s all Akins fault.
lol! Yeah, random has been outing himself as a big government type for a while now, and his Akin Derangement Syndrome is the icing on the cake. Pass the popcorn; his head should explode any time now. Koch Brothers! Sarah Palin! George Bush! Dick Cheney! Halliburton! Richard Mellon Scaife!!
jeannette — earlier I had said in a reply @ #19 — Of course, this statement will meet “gales of stupid laughter” (Idiocracy reference) on this web site. — and here you are, right on cue. It’s helpful when others make my point for me.
Burn baby, burn. Yes, there will be pain for a time. Perhaps we lose another election. But it’s the only way to play Obama’s game. And sometime, someplace, Obama gets burned too, his legacy so tarnished, he is scorned. Priceless.
Then the pain will be worth it. Let the stomachs growl and the New Year be miserable. Obama has to own it sometime. And if these Obama lackeys so illiterate in economics and finance can’t figure it out, let them be the first and the worst of feeling the fire until they do.
Screw ‘um. I’m out of sympathy. These feckless SOBs deserve everything they are going to get and I’m going to laugh at their misery. Time to relax the cremaster and gird the loins.
Yeah, that’s a winning strategy. We have the Democrats agreeing with 98% of the Bush tax cuts and you want to throw away this victory by raising taxes on everybody. You want to see shrewd long term thinking read this. A WSJ article that is the most intelligent take on this totally artificial “crisis” that I have seen.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324640104578163463238620682.html?mod=WSJ_article_comments#articleTabs%3Darticle
The morons who voted for Obama, who voted for McCaskill, who voted for Reid…they have to be taught a lesson. They will not learn anything from watching Milton Friedman beat the intellectual snot out of Frances Fox Piven. They won’t learn anything from reading about the history of all the instances where supply side economics worked. They all voted based on demagoguery. They voted based on ignorance, thinking this president is going to turn things around. They trusted a man who went back on every last campaign promise the first time around. They must be taught a lesson. They must suffer directly at the hands of Democrats, or they’ll never learn their lesson.
If Republicans cave and go along with hiking taxes on the top 2%, the economy loses but Obama scores class warfare points. The dregs of society feel the effects of raising taxes on small business, but they don’t make the connection. And even if they do, both parties agreed to the taxes, so they default to blaming the party they already were taught to hate – those evil Republicans.
If Republicans fight tooth and nail, and nothing passes, the Republicans get blamed for stonewalling and creating the gridlock that prevented a solution – a debt ceiling showdown redux.
If Republicans wash their hands of it, walk away, and vote present, the Democrats will exclusively own whatever tax deal happens. If taxes get raised on the rich, it’s their fault only. If taxes get raised on everyone, it’s their fault only. Republicans will have no blood on their hands, and the lemmings who voted for the same disaster twice get a rude awakening.
See, Obama has Boehner right where he wants him: bending over backwards to come up with a deal. But the problem is, if we keep fighting these stupid battles in the Dems’ home field mud, we’re never going to come back to win with a majority that understands how disastrous anti-capitalists are.
The plebs must learn a painful lesson about what it means to move closer to democratic socialism. Otherwise, we cannot avoid the REAL fiscal cliff, set to arrive at an unknown time in the very near future.
If the Republicans all vote “present,” then how can any bill get passed?
I thought to pass a bill out of the House you need a true majority of votes, not just a plurality.
And here’s the biggest key of all:
The Democrats secretly want to raise taxes on everyone, but they can’t declare that publicly. So they use this fiscal cliff to trap Republicans into taking the heat for raising taxes on everyone. It’s a win-win for the president. The Republucans get thrown under the PR bus, and the Democrats get their tax hikes without an ounce of blame.
THAT is why the Repunlicans need to walk away – to leave the Democrats standing in the path of the hurtling locomotive of their own creation.
And let’s be clear: we will not “let it burn” forever. No, we will only let it burn until the stupid half of the country learns a lesson. Then we can actually halt the march toward irreversible destruction. We will be doing a controlled burn, and in the meantime replacing Boehner.
We must make sure people clearly understand what the results of progressive policies are. That is a necessary condition for avoiding total collapse. I will gladly trade a little shared misery for avoiding a hyperinflationary armageddon in this just-in-time economy of ours.
Macc, in a rational country, you could mock me. But in reality, I should mock you for your patronizing behavior and the fact you still don’t get it. Since this in PJMedia and you’re not an Obama dolt, I’ll be nice.
The WSJ is worthless anymore – wrong more than it is right. I used to take it – but frankly, it’s become a NYC political hack for big money with bad advice and even worse political skills. Give me something else if you wish to argue.
This country is no longer rational or reasonable. It needs to learn a hard lesson.
You still believe you can pin the bad economy on Obama. You can’t. If this last election proved anything, it’s that more than half the country are economic and financial imbeciles, bleating flocks of government dependents. The differences between candidates couldn’t have been more clear.
The Republicans will never win another Presidential election unless there is a major crisis and these amoral teat suckers don’t suffer the consequences. It’s not the 98% I’m trying to protect. It’s the 48% that don’t have their heads in their rectums. You and Kimberly are thinking about today. I’m thinking 5-10 years down the road.
I have no intention of letting the country burn forever. I’ve got kids for one. But without a lesson being taught, we will lose the next election 53-47, then 54-46, then 55-45 until the country goes under. We’re slowly being bled to death.
If this last election proved anything, it’s that more than half the country are economic and financial imbeciles, bleating flocks of government dependents. The differences between candidates couldn’t have been more clear.
The WSJ is correct, and your far right view is not representative of the mainstream of the GOP. What the last election proved, if anything, was that the people would rather deal with financial pain than the far right and “conservatives” like Akin.
A dear friend from MO put it well — she, running a business, wanted to vote GOP because that’s the sane thing for a businesswoman to do, but with scum like Akin representing the GOP, it was high time to send the STFU message. In *her* view social conservatives are far more personal, dangerous, and injurious than higher taxes. This woman has a business degree, ace. She’s not an “economic imbecile” and **certainly** nobody’s “dependent.” She’s a moderate republican.
You really need a healthy dose of reality.
Nope, she IS an imbecile, and if it’s not obvious why now, just wait, and it’ll be apparent soon enough. Even if she’s in the business of government contracting, she’s not going to be safe from the consequences of her emotional outburst.
One problem we have these days is too many business people with b-school degrees taught by marxists. They don’t understand econ. Not real econ, anyway.
You’re so in touch with reality Ellen Barkin, you believe the Republican Party would fly like eagles if we were all vile Christian bigots like you.
I thought you said I was stalking you, limp noodle? The fact you disagree with me, only reinforces I must be absolutely correct by definition.
I thought I told you that whatever side you’re on, I’m going to be on the other? I would rather keep company with an entire herd of Obamaphone owning barnyard animals than stand in your presence, Ellen.
windsor — your patronising authoritarian attitude would still be intolerable if you were representing the winning side, but coming off as the wise master whose side lost their collective ass is simply absurd. I’m bummed that the GOP lost but actually pretty happy to see the far right get stomped. That’s what happened in the election. Obama didn’t get elected so much as the voters rejected the far right.
tex taylor — referencing obamaphones and animals shows that you’re pretty far gone. Smacks of closet racism. Own it. Face it, you were warned by me prior to the election what the effect of Akin et al would be and you said I was wrong. Everything I have written about has come to pass and **nothing** you have opined on has panned out. With a record like that yeah it’s no wonder I instill enough fear in you that you lash out in childish word tantrums. Is it possible you can bring anything to a conversation or are you limited to the ellen barkin! skwwaaaak! parrot schtick you’re currently consumed with?
I’m sure glad you’re not engineering any of my projects. What bullshit. Obama won because his side cheated. Period. Got zip to do with any imaginary “far right”. Do you see white supremacists under your bed in the middle of the night? Maybe you should go see a doc about that.
windsor– What bullshit. Obama won because his side cheated. Period. Got zip to do with any imaginary “far right”.
And apollo 11 never landed on the moon, did it, nutbag? Some of you reactionary right types crack me up. It’s hard to tell whether you’re *that* seriously stupid or your meds are off. But thanks, that made my day.
Fine then, so be it. May her money perish with her, because she places no value on the human lives who are in the cross-hairs.
A “business degree” offers no indication that she isn’t an imbecile if it was conferred in the last thirty or forty years; if you sat there and paid, you got the degree in business, communication, education, any other humanities, and even in the STEM subjects if you fit the right AA block. The credential club really doesn’t mean much anymore other than you have an employee who really doesn’t have much freedom because s/he is so deeply in debt for that idiotic credential.
New drinking game! Every time he says Akin, we drink.
Your Missouri friend voted for a tax cheat because of one stupid comment by Akin? She voted to preserve Obamacare and raise taxes on herself? Yeah, she is an imbecile.
Next time you see her, tell her a fellow Missourian said to go f*** herself and never vote again. I’m dead serious. Because of morons like her, I just had a job opportunity get yanked out from under me.
Your Missouri friend voted for a tax cheat because of one stupid comment by Akin?
No, she voted for a tax cheat and swindler because like MOST PEOPLE FROM MISSOURI she views said tax cheat/swindler — as execrable as she is — as being infinitely preferable to the bible beating lunatic. It’s never been “one stupid comment” because there was nothing stupid or otherwise incorrect. It’s because the comment was NOT stupid, that it was sincere. The only thing even remotely “stupid” here was that the comment was outed so that the voters could see what this example of bible beating sincerity actually thought.
You just don’t get it, do you? People will vote for tax cheats or violent alien tentacle rape and horrifying death long before they will vote for bible beaters. And yes this includes the good people of Missouri (which is chock full of bible beaters.)
Sorry you lost your job opportunity, ace, but it wasn’t my friend’s fault. Put the blame where it belongs.
Well said TT. Macc has no stomach for the fight.
I am sorry, but you and the rest of the “let It burn” fanatics haven’t shown me enough to convince you can predict what will happen to the American, and world economy, should we deliberately drive the country over the cliff yelling “LET IT BURN”. What it comes down to is that hotheads like you, still incensed over the election results, want to punish the American people. I’m a pretty sure they will notice who drove the economy over the cliff, in fact, I am sure that that is the ONLY THING they will notice about who destroyed the American economy. Hence we will spend 40 years in the political wilderness as America is dismantled by Obamas mob.
“If this last election proved anything, it’s that more than half the country are economic and financial imbeciles, bleating flocks of government dependents. The differences between candidates couldn’t have been more clear.”
No it didn’t. Those numbers 52% vs. 48% are still fluid. They won’t be if we do a Thelma and Louise with the economy while yelling “learn you peasant imbeciles.” The country will be lost for generations.
We lost because we ran an uncharismatic investment banker who ran a really lousy campaign that never presented a specific plan for turning things around.
Obama is a game playing arrogant punk who has been propped up by his leftist enablers since birth. The Manchurian Socialist. The game he is playing now is Destroy the Republican Party for generations. And you “Let It Burn” fanatics are walking right into his trap. We Rep/Cons may well lose as we have to fight against the Democratic Partys Consciousness Control Machine i.e. the “Mass Media”. But I will be damned if it is over the issue of a minor tax increase on a class of people who vote overwhelmingly against us and send most of their money to the Demoncrats. Stupid is, as stupid votes. And to the guy above who said something about a “controlled burn” to teach the peasants a lesson… you are insanely over optimistic about the Washington crowds ability to control a world economy that is imploding. Seriously.
Clueless.
Hothead? It’s called realist, and frankly I’m not incensed. I’m through with politics, through with trying to reason with pompous asses like you. If you were smart (you’re obviously not), you’d protect your assets and hope it goes over the cliff quickly, instead of being bled dry so there’s still time to pick up the pieces while we’ve got the chance instead of finding ourselves $30 trillion in debt.
But you keep hoping and praying for a miracle, still believing the country can once again look like 1984, and I’ll be in here four years reminding you how ignorant you were when you lose by a couple of more percentage points. In the mean time, I’ll short the market and make money off dreamers like you.
LOL… Tex YOU ARE A HOTHEAD, sorry to break it to you buddy. Read what you wrote. And since you just admitted that your economic self interest is in seeing the country’s economy destroyed as soon as possible then you DEFINITELY SHOULD KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT ABOUT OUR NATIONS POLITICS, you evil traitor. We’ll be here waiting for you in four years. Good luck with your shorting.
I wish all these “it’s too far gone, we’re all doomed, let’s all be hopeless together” headcases would all confine themselves to OWS sites or zerohedge or wherever. However you feel about the Republican party it can’t possibly help us to be seen as the party that wants to completely destroy the economy because the country rejected us to select a snotty black guy. We shouldn’t back secession either. Although if cowboys like Tex want to leave US, we would likely be better off.
I beg to differ. We should allow the economy to burn, because saving it isn’t the top priority right now. The people voted for socialist tyranny, so let them suffer the natural consequences of it. My chief concern at this point is averting the persecution of the Catholic Church.
This all seems like an intervention to prevent a credit-addicted soul from spending himself to insolvency. Boehner and Obama need a meeting with Suzi Orman, “Can I afford it?”, “Show me the money, girlfriend!”
Just what will we be ‘buying’ with new taxes on the rich- image, debt reduction, more votes, political power into perpetuity? And what of America’s future? Who cares, we won, get over it. Is handing the keys to the country over to socialists really that simple? I mean, shouldn’t you be on the ground and bloodied a bit before the thug drives away with your car?
It depends what the stakes are.
I might fight to keep from being carjacked.
But if the thief only swipes a dollar bill that I accidentally dropped on the ground, I’m not going to bother.
Raising taxes on millionaires back to the Clinton-era levels aren’t high enough stakes to fight to the bitter end on.
The House should pass a clean bill raising taxes on those earning more than $1,000,000 (not $250,000). And then they should go home and enjoy the Christmas holidays.
The GOP base needs to learn how to pick its fights, given the GOP’s weakness at this time. They can’t keep doubling down on everything.
You have fallen for the MSM meme that this is about taxing the 2%. The real issue is cutting spending, remember? But it is so much easier to rail about Todd Akin. Can we find a Todd Akin in the Dem party. Sure, but the Dems won’t fall for the ploy like the pathetic Republicans ALWAYS do.
Let it burn.
Time for another civil war.
Sounds like a plan.
Obama’s new evil empire is so overextended that I’m not sure it has the wherewithal to put up much of a fight against those States that want to opt out.
I’m way beyond fed up with a federal grabbermint that is running up unimaginably huge debts in my name, but without my consent and sometimes even without my knowledge – especially after both the 2008 and 2012 GOP primaries were rigged to nominate the worst candidate both times, and after the 2012 general election was obviously stolen.
Dose all this mean this old working white dude, is not going to get his new bama phone?
“How you can fire Speaker Boehner”. Take action and follow the link below to Red State.
http://www.redstate.com/nedryun/2012/12/07/how-you-can-fire-speaker-boehner/
Oh the weather outside is frightful, but the fire is so delightful. I’m in. Thelma, “just keep goin’”.
Good piece, Rick.
Omerica sucks. Fight The Power!
Let it go over “the cliff,” even though it’s nothing more than a mole hill, really. Even if we go over this cliff, it hardly makes a dent in our $16 trillion-plus debt, which shows that neither side is really interested in serious debt reduction. Although Obama is bent on turning us into France with all of their socialists, we will probably turn into Japan, with its lost generation in its own stagnant economy with little or no economic growth and high taxes. The only way to actually save a few bucks is by going off this cliff, which I guess is better than nothing. But Obama isn’t serious about reducing the spending on anything at all, as his current “budget” (such as it is) shows. In fact, he wants yet another “stimulus” package, even though the first one was such a crushing failure. So I say go off the stupid cliff. Let EVERYONE have some skin in the game and see how expensive it really is to maintain a socialist government. Maybe that’s the only way people will really learn this horrific lesson, if we really do turn into Greece and hit bottom after jumping off the cliff.
When we go off the cliff I’m sure we’ll find Obama there with a shovel making the cliff taller.
I see the solution as follows;
1. Give Obama his increased taxes on the Evil Two Percent. He will never stop whining like a two-year-old, but it deprives him of an excuse for bullying like a six-year-old.
2. Let the Evil Bush Tax Cuts expire. See answer to (1) above.
3. Give Obama his stimulus, his defense budget cuts, and take his promises to “look at” spending cuts in entitlements later. (The same way he “looks at” nuclear power, i.e., with the intention of never doing anything about it.)
4. Important; Do all of the above without giving him any Republican votes. Vote “present”, abstain, or whatever. But do nothing to make this look like anything but the Progressive Democrat Wet Dream Come True it really is.
The above procedure results in this;
A. The MSM trumpets Obama’s Triumph, shouts from the rooftops that it’s a New Day In America, and gives the Democrats all the credit while excoriating the Republicans for not giving it full support. (Mutterings about them being “anti-American”, etc. under the table, on the principle of a scoundrel’s last refuge.)
B. If it works, the Dems will of course get all the credit, and probably rule forever. This is in keeping with Obama’s dreams; he does not want the GOP reduced to a permanent minority, he wants it destroyed, root and branch. Because he sees it as the expression of all the evil he sees in America, and that’s quite a bit. Let him have his fantasy come true. Because
C. It is far more likely that the result will be exactly what the non-progressive experts are predicting; a train wreck of Biblical proportions. No reform. Massive entitlement increases. A gutted military. Massive borrowing. Repeated “Quantum Easings”, aka “Weimar Math” at the Treasury. More environmental policies which make the entire country look like Southern California under “Grayout” Davis and “Moonbeam” Brown. And so on, and so forth.
D. Since the MSM will have trumpeted this as a Triumph, and excoriated the GOP for not joining in- they will have nowhere to go. They will either have to admit that they, and their Messiah, and all His cronies, were flat wrong factually. Or else simply say nothing, because nothing else they could say will be even halfway believable, even to “low-information” voters. At which point
E. The GOP simply says, “ We told you so“.
The Democratic objective here is to get “buy-in” from everybody, like the two grifters in Huckleberry Finn with their “scandalous show”. The idea being that if everyone goes along, nobody will dare criticize.
By the same token, going over “the cliff” or fighting for a few concessions are both losing propositions. Obama will not give in on his fanatical beliefs, anymore than the Galtieri regime’ would give up on demanding that “all negotiations must end with the Malvinas as Argentine territory” in 1982, or Iran would give in on “all negotiations re the hostages must start with the return of the Shah for trial” in 1979. (And then he had the poor grace to die on them, thereby gumming up the works.)
Either way, Obama gets what he wants; defense cuts and increased entitlements. That’s the way it’s been set up, both ways. It’s a “heads I win, tails you lose” proposition.
As the old saying in Vegas goes, “Never play against a stacked deck”.
You cannot negotiate with someone who refuses to negotiate. Nor do you dare sign on to his delusions, because that gives him cover. Which he will use to do more of the same, and worse.
Stay out of it. Let him, and his, do as they will. And let it be clear that it is them doing it, and no one else.
There is no sense in fighting a battle you cannot win.
Or, as the computer said in Wargames;
clear ether
eon
I don’t think you can pass a bill out of the House without a majority of the Representatives voting for it.
Since the GOP controls the House, if they all vote “present,” that’s equivalent to shutting down the House and not passing any bills.
To pass a bill containing that tax increase on the wealthy, enough Republicans will have to vote for it to give the bill a majority of yes votes.
Under Article I, Section 7, and Article V, of the U.S. Constitution, the only times a majority of the sitting members of the House and Senate are required to pass any bill, spending or otherwise, are a two-thirds vote to override a Presidential veto, or amend the Constitution (with or without a Constitutional Convention). Other than those instances, the Constitution is silent on the subject of “how many members of the House or Senate constitute a quorum?”
In short, if a majority of those not abstaining or voting “present” vote for a bill, it passes. Period.
As I said, make them own it.
cheers
eon
Actually, the Constitution is not silent on the subject of quorums. It takes a majority of the members of a chamber to constitute a quorum of that chamber.
If Nancy Pelosi can figure out which dems she can afford to have vote no on Obamacare then the republicans can do the same . I am sure there is some formula of deceit that they come up with . They can have enough opposing votes to give themselves cover and not risk losing a seat in the next election over the vote. Sad to say that Boehner isn’t half the man that Pelosi is
1. Sell all your U.S. stocks. 2. Buy gold. 3. Walk. 4. Maybe the Spirit of ’76 will return to America after the fire. Right now the Spirit is alive and active in Egypt screaming for Obama’s boy to go back to jail.
The real danger for the donks is that the automatic cuts are going to go into effect, and nobody who wasn’t already a hardcore donk is going to notice. The defense cuts are going to hurt certain sectors, but the effect on the middle class is probably overstated.
Then this becomes the new normal. I could think of worse new normals.
Funny how Social Security and Medicare are the only considered entitlements when TANF, AFDC, Welfare, Food Stamps, Medicaid, SSI, HUD, ObamaPhones, public housing complexes, and “free lunch program” are not considered in that class.
How much more obvious can it be that this regime is buying the low class vote with Federal Funds?
For a long time, I’ve used the Wall Street idiom “technical correction to the market.” We’re going to have one eventually, politically and budgetarily. But the longer we wait, the worse things will get, and thus the more severe the technical correction will have to be.
We might as well do this now, while we still have some relatively productive sectors of the economy to help re-start the economy, rather than wait until the economy mirrors Wiemar or Zimbabwe, in which nothing productive remains.
Let it burn — let’s get this over with.
The one and only mandatory item at this time is that The Democrats must be made to “own” whatever happens.
We already know they want to spend more.
We already know they want to borrow even more.
We already know they’re unwilling to act on entitlements.
And we already know that Obama’s #1 priority is to destroy the GOP politically for the next 20 or 30 years.
Thus, whatever the Republican caucuses on the Hill do, it must pin the outcome on the Donkey. We know it will be economically deleterious for the country, especially for employment…so the Democrats must not be allowed to escape the odium for it.
All else is merely detail.
Those who think that feeling economic pain will change hearts and minds towards the Republicans might want to rethink that position. Case in point….California. the state and its population have just doubled down on economic irresponsibility and they will keep going until nothing is left but a dry and barren wasteland. Too many people do not learn from experience.
California is a lost cause. As soon as my wife retires we are getting the he** out. My parents were born here, I was born here but California is a “foreign country” to what I grew up with. The democrats have had run of this state, by way of both legislative parties, for 30+ years. Look how great they are doing. Just makes me want to vomit.
I agree about California. At this point, I believe our only option is separation from the progressives. Makes me sad, as I have many in my side of the family, but they are going to continue doing what they do, and my kids are going to be put into debt slavery to pay for it.
As my daughter said, the Roman Empire split, why not the US?
The only way we are going to get ANY spending cuts is to take the fiscal cliff. And the pain needs to go to all income levels. Period. If you vote for this insanity, at least you should be expected to pay for it. And the stupid people in Virginia need to feel the effects of the military layoffs. We cannot continue this level of spending and the military will have to be cut anyway. I mean 70 years after WWII, Europe can defend themselves. Note to Europe chop welfare and invest in your own defense. If its not worth it to you, oh well.
Oh, and call these income tax rates the “Clinton tax rates” which they are. So all you Democrat voters, enjoy the ride to the bottom.
And those small business owners (the few that are successful) should structure their compensation to remain under the punative tax rates. Just like Kalifornia is finding out, raising rates is not equal to getting more revenue. Its the rich person’s survival instincts that take over, irrespective of what Warren Buffoon claims publically. I’d bet anything that most of the money hidden overseas is by Democrats.
A deal is a deal and in 2011 it was pretty simple: a one year extension of the Bush-Obama tax hikes for a one year raising of the debt ceiling.
A deal is a deal.
The year is over.
Taxes go up.
The debt ceiling stays in place.
And the Democrats can deliver a balanced budget.
Really if the Clinton era rates are so magical, then the Democrats ought to be able to get the balanced budgets that Clinton signed off on. And no matter what the Democrats gut, entitlements will be cut.
Yeah R’s fall on their swords on taxes. Now the D’s get to fall on their swords for spending cuts.
It was an awful deal last year, but a deal is a deal.
Just tell Obama that he got what he wanted last time around, and now he gets to live with it. No budget with a deficit, please, Mr. President. You laud Clinton enough, so now how about doing as he did?
As for taxing the rich… they are only a couple of percent of the population. This thing called a MINORITY. Don’t minorities have rights to equal treatment, too? I thought Democrats were all for minority rights… why, its almost like they are preparing to swivel against other minorities once the general population is down with this 99% business. How about 89%? Or 84%? Yes, minorities have heard this before… now will they remember that turning on a minority is not such a good thing? Do minorities really want to start anti-minority feelings in America *again*?
Let it come to a vote. Then Republicans should pull an Obama and vote present. Make the dems own it. When working Americans see their taxes skyrocket they will make the dems pay dearly.
I’m calling Boehner right now and leaving a message, to go over the cliff.
We’re tired of him trying to make “deals”. NO DEALS are possible with this president. If the opposition had any balls they would be staging a protest outside of the Capitol building with all the O Crimes listed on placards.
Problem is, they just don’t understand how to do PR. Politics is theatre, Mr. Boehner, not some kind of sit down serious gentelemanly game !
Shutting down the government went staggering well for the reps when clinton was in the whitehouse.
I totally reckon they should stonewall on this and let the whole thing crash. Then, hillary can be the next president.
If that’s what it takes.
On November 7th I figured we were headed for a long period of bad times.
Maybe when Obama’s feckless improvidence leads to several American cities being nuked it will be a wake up call. Maybe not. Maybe we’ll have to see what kind of moronic disaster Hillary Clinton can dream up.
“The more pragmatic establishment blanches at the thought of cliff diving, believing that the party would pay for this position in the 2014 midterm elections.”
I’ve got news for these pragmatists: their “pragmatism” has forever alienated a large chunk of their base and perhaps already doomed the GOP to extinction. We’re sick unto death of politicians making every decision on the basis of what’s best for the next election cycle. That’s how Obama does business, and we want no part of it.
i would certainly let the cuts be enacted.
one major consequence of the cuts is that Obama and his acolytes will see curtailed those very funds necessary for them to feed their armies of mercenaries:
unions, media, seiu
All this talk of “let the Republicans do this or that” is plain stupid. When have the Republicans since the first Clinton years majority done anything that wasn’t at the bidding of the Democrats? I say we give in to resignation and let come what may. In 10 years this nation will fall and if you haven’t prepared for that then its your own fault.
Let. It. Burn.
If you are going to be blamed for something you didn’t do. then DON’T DO IT. Make the historical facts defy the claim…
The country needs (actually is destined to) a massive kick in the balls. One that many people will NEVER RECOVER from I’m afraid to say. We are at WAR.. The producers vs parasites.
Sen. Rand Paul on Your World with Neil Cavuto on Fox News – 12/11/12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFPjo8uHXNQ&feature=plcp
As one of those damn loony far-left liberals, I’d love to go over the fiscal cliff. Why? To wipe out the Bush tax cuts, which I consider to be the worst fiscal policy mistake of the past 50 years. Yes there will be a temporary slowdown of the economy – but even that will be a hard lesson in macroeconomic truth and the whole Keynes vs. Hayek debacle. The fact that a significant amount of the contractionary (austerity) effect will come from spending cuts should put to rest any excuses conservatives might have about the true nature of the outcome.