Fascism Descends on America’s Shopping Malls
So the following may now happen in Arizona: policemen can ask for your papers.
This is a mind-blowing law — nowhere else in the world would the police ask for your papers.
We, people of good will, need to save the undocumented individuals who run the risk of being sent back to their cherished country of origin. We have to set up places of refuge for these people all over Arizona — for instance, in the churches.
And we have to send buses from San Francisco and migrate these unfortunate undocumented people to the Golden Gate city.
No doubt, many San Franciscans will open up their homes for these poor people. Unfortunately, I don’t live in San Francisco. Otherwise I would have asked an undocumented family to stay with us for as long as President Obama needs to overturn the fascist “papers” law.
It will make a huge difference when well-known San Franciscans like Nancy Pelosi and Mayor Gavin Newsom open their lovely homes for the persecuted undocumented individuals in Arizona. These progressive San Franciscans should lead the way. We really should see hundreds — thousands! — of buses heading to Arizona for the sole purpose of evacuating the undocumented and bringing them to San Francisco and Berkeley. There, many progressive families will warmly welcome them, show them the guest rooms, and prepare a healthy meal.
We need to make clear to Arizona that securing the border is fascist, racist, and xenophobic. Therefore, we need to create a safe highway corridor connecting Arizona to San Francisco. The undocumented will find a generous city in which no one will ever ask for their papers — unless they dare buy a box of batteries with a credit card at a neo-Nazi stronghold.
I plead with Ms. Pelosi and Mr. Newsom: show your best side and give shelter to a couple of undocumented Arizonans who are now being threatened by the Arizona Senate to be sent back to their cherished country of origin, which is worse than the Soviet gulag.
Please, Nancy and Gavin and all you progressive San Franciscans of good will, show your colors and take in an undocumented family! They come from countries we love to go to on vacation and buy second homes in — but to these undocumented, it’s truly the gulag. They cherish it when they wave flags, but they hate to live there apart from a couple of weeks when they have a holiday.
And now the Nazis have taken over Arizona: they want to uphold the law, which is truly fascist.
San Francisco, come and save the poor undocumented in Arizona! It’s like saving Jews from Hitler.
Hmm, maybe it’s not as bad as all that. As I understand it, only illegal aliens suspected of committing an illegal act will be asked for their papers. The other illegal aliens, whose only crime was to illegally enter the country, can continue to enjoy the largesse of the Arizona taxpayers. You see, Ms. Pelosi and Mr. Newsom won’t be inconvenienced at all. Makes sense to me.
Even in jest, comparing a store employee who asks for ID to complete a purchase on credit and that of a police officer asking the same is ludicrous. To belabor the obvious, a store employee can’t potentially haul you off to jail. The difference in respective power is too obvious to need stating. But apparently it does need stating.
Conservative insensitivity on this issue only serves to give legitimacy to opponents’ arguments. Of course comparing the Arizona law to Nazi Germany is also too silly to require comment. Still, Americans do not expect to have a police officer routinely ask for identification documents. We need to convince them that circumstances in Arizona, possibly elsewhere, justify this intrusion.
My god man read the damn bill. There must be LAWFULL CONTACT first, then they can ask about status. I wisk you people would stop insinuating this is a “hey hes brown, papers please”. If you want them here you go pay for them, invite them into your home, and sponsor their immigration.
Damn it Bob, your “conservative insensitivity” is showing, how dare you introduce facts into the discussion.
“Still, Americans do not expect to have a police officer routinely ask for identification documents.”
Surely you jest. Every time anyone is stopped for a traffic violation, random sobriety check, or any other reason, the first thing the police always ask for is “May I see your identification, Please.”
Um … Drivers license does not equal papers. Non citizens can get papers, I have friends studying from abroad who can get drivers license. They are going to demand you have proof of citizenship. What that means is that if a cop can terry stop you and demand proof of citzenship from you. If you do not have those papers they can then detain you. Haha you say that is not a violation of my fourth amendment right, who needs the constitution. That paper is for suckers. Now imagine this, you are white, and a latin american cop stops you. after you jay walked, and asks for your papers you of couse do not keep your birth certificate on you so you do not have them present. This officers says you might be an illegal Canadian, who knows, and he can now detain you. Why are people not more frightened of this clear intrusion on our constitution?
Brian, I’m afraid you are badly misinformed. Have you ever driven in Mexico? If so, you will recall that police will frequently stop you on the highway and demand your ID, for no cause whatever, except that you are driving a car. And, my friend, are you aware that the fourth amendment uses the term “unreasonable” searches?
The Arizona law is basically the same as the FEDERAL LAW. You remember the Federal law? That’s the one that the government, including the Congress and the Administration, doesn’t want enforced.
4th Amen:
“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against UNREASONABLE[my caps] searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”
I expect the same sensitivity from you when I don’t pay my federal income tax. Don’t as for my SSN when you take my money so that slackers, junkies and bums can live too. I resent you asking for my paper check to pay for these criminals so they can go to school,have health care, and if they get hurt working for the piece of shit that hires them under the table the tax payer, me, is responsible.
@ L Cramer;
What’d you do? Sneak in from the dailyK or something?
: To belabor the obvious, a store employee can’t potentially haul you off to jail.
No, a store employee won’t haul you off to jail, they’ll pass you over to security because others are still anxiously waiting in line. Security will then hold you til police arrive, handcuffed or maybe not so, and if details are proper, then police haul you off to jail (most definitely handcuffed).
And in states like AZ, if citizenship/residency papers aren’t proper, police will hand you over to some agency to be deported to country of origin.
Not really that complicated. But I do know the pass offs can be confusing at times.
>>No, a store employee won’t haul you off to jail, they’ll pass you over to security . . . .
Actually, no, that’s not how it plays out. Refuse to produce the ID and what? . . . . the clerk refuses the purchase. Now, do the same with the police. See? The point is rather clear, no?
Is the snarky tone necessary? I support the law, but believe that pretending a store clerk’s request for ID to be comparable to a police officer’s request is a weak argument on its behalf. The two acts are not the same.
At every stage in the 40 yr path to asking for IDs more and more often, Americans, usually conservatives, have at minimum grumbled, if not objected.
Actually I am with the writer on the bit of humor. He makes an excellent point. We are required to show all sorts of things in order to function and prove we are within the law. If you can’t prove car insurance at a traffic stop you are ticketed if you can’t prove ownership you are ticketed, if you can’t show a licence you are prevented from driving under threat of arrest. These are all things Citizens are required to do.
Without going any further I would just like to say it is time Mexico stopped using the USA as the solution to its unemployment problem.
If you refuse to show ID when buying with a credit card at Best Buy, they probably will turn you over to the police on the grounds that they have good reason to believe you may be using a stolen credit card. So no, they can’t haul you off to jail, but they can detain you while those who can haul you off to the jail are on their way to pick you up.
I think you miss the tone of the piece. The author clearly isn’t suggesting a clear equivalence between the two, merely using hyperbole to accentuate the deficiencies of the opposition to the recent law. The piece clearly shows how things would be if the situation were as bad as the law’s detractors claim it is (cries of fascism and nazism). In such a world the store clerks would be duly deputized agents of the reich. Fortunately in the real world the law has strict and sensible requirements that essentially restate the federal law already in place.
Lily wrote:
“Every time anyone is stopped for a traffic violation, random sobriety check, or any other reason, the first thing the police always ask for is ‘May I see your identification, Please.’”
You hit the nail on the head.
yes. when i go to the store and return something without a receipt, the authorities require me to show my drivers liscense and give them my phone number and they check my signature. one time the police in a patrol car were looking for a girl in a purple coat. i wore a purple coat. they actually asked me to come over to the car and i had to show my papers. i think it’s fair to say it is because of my white skin.
i shall riot.
It’s worse than you think. In California, the DMV actually requires documentation in order to get a driver’s license.
The DMV = Auschwitz.
You know now that I think about it when I went to Rubio’s for some tasty fish tacos today they asked me for paper too, the Nazis.$7.61 to be exact. I didn’t see the deeper implications at the time but next time somebody asks me for paper(s) they better be prepared for me to say something like “I don’t have to show you no papers. just gimme the food”.
Free food…Free food…No papers….off the pigs….free food.
BTW the tacos were indeed tasty. Lip smackin’ good.
I went to the bank to make a deposit and they asked for my papers.
A deposit I tell you.
Good Lord. If I tried to make a withdrawal I might have ended up in a re-education camp!
Rioting is too good for them.
I used to do the same when I worked for a *insert department store chain* here in Austin, Texas and when I lived in Buffalo, NY. I checked ID for unsigned credit cards. And when people wanted to apply for a credit card, I not only checked their ID, but also asked for their social security number! (Social insurance number for Canadians.)
I only had one person here in Texas tell me that they didn’t have a social security number and they gave me a look that all but told me they were here illegally.
Gee, now that I think about it, the company accepted applications from Canadian customers, but does not from Mexican customers. Does that mean the company employs profiling? Or just smart business practices?
Mr. DeWinter, not knowing your style or general political persuasion, it took me about ten lines to figure out this wsa satire.
I aplogize for the bad thoughts I had about your intelligence!
I would appreciate it if you don’t share your’s about mine!
The real cost of this Arizona Bill? The so-called Arisona House “Birther” Bill has been tabled in the Arizona Senate.
So, whereas Arizona can take care of Jose-the-illegal, she can’t take care of BHO-the-illegal, contrary to what we were hoping for.
I’ve lived in several different countries (legally), and this law is relatively mild compared to what you find in France or Germany. In both of these countries, government representatives have the right to ask for your papers for any reason whatsoever. Furthermore, if you are on a temporary visa, that is, you don’t have leave to remain in the country indefinitely, you are not only required by law to have your papers on you, you are also required to show valid proof of a way outside of the country, i.e. a plane ticket. I recall a situation in my home state of N.C. a few years ago when a large SUV collided with another car at an intersection. The SUV was not insured and of the 18! passengers, they were able to provide three SS#’s, all of which were fake. Somewhere in this process it was pretty easy for the cops to ascertain that all passengers were not legal residents (nor legally prepared to drive that vehicle in the US.) I am a bit surprised at the uproar. You would think this law gave law enforcement permission to go door to door looking for illegals. It is simply a means for helping the police enforce the local laws, which, as I can best recall, is in their job description.
In all of this, I can’t help but think back to a Columbian friend of mine, a medical doctor, who entered and worked in America legally. It was a long bureaucratic process to gain citizenship that required that he hire a lawyer and shell out tens of thousands. It isn’t fair to people like him who play by all the rules to allow others to flaunt them in front of his face. The ultimate kick in his rear involved the country currently providing us with most of our illegal immigrants. Columbian citizens are not allowed to enter Mexico without obtaining a visa outside of Mexican territory. His father suffered a severe stroke, and his family called him to tell him to come home immediately since he might not survive 24 hours. The quickest flights all went through Mexico City. A close family friend, in fact Columbia’s diplomat to Mexico, asked the consulate to allow him leave to pass through the country in order to say goodbye to his father. They refused. The ultimate problem is that Mexico is using the US as a stop-gap measure against unemployment, which allows them to not do anything painful, like modernizing.
I, as an American citizen, have not broken the immigration laws of any country I have lived in. I certainly don’t think I have a human right to live in Germany; the same applies for the US. Natural rights are not civil rights. There is a distinct difference!
Heck, you want a real comparison, look at Mexico’s laws.
Basically, anywhere outside the “border zone” if you don’t have your papers on you, and don’t present them upon request, you get arrested.
And they have the cojones to say Arizona’s law is Nazi-like?
Unfortunately, the situation in Mexico is quite bad regarding immigrants from south of their border. There was a case a couple of years ago where two Mexican nationals were shot dead near the border by guards because they were suspected of being illegals. They were targeted because they were darker in skin colour, and of course, they didn’t have a chance to show their papers since the police there apparently have a shoot first, determine nationality for darker indigenous populations later policy. This kind of behaviour could be compared with that of the Nazis and is entirely unacceptable. Arizona’s law, in contrast, is just responsible.
Irony, thy name is something like Speedy Gonzales.
Jacob, as then you have seen…. our naive peers should observe French Immigration in Charles de Gaulle airport or German Immigration when there are black folks or black families presenting themselves. One learns very quickly to avoid the passport lines with blacks unless you want to stand there for a awfully long time.
Now one is sure there are “reasons” for all this, but I used to chuckle as that situation ought to drive the US progressives up the wall but either they don’t go to Europe, are fortunate enough not to have witnessed this, or are willing to ignore the callous disrespect of other countries while demanding different rules here. Strange bunch, these folks who want to import their brand of liberal fascism without the awareness that what you wish for may be not exactly what you had in mind. For a reference point on that, ask an old German.
Agreed. I find it a little curious that people will fiercely advocate copying European styled social benefits without every having lived under them. The best I can come up with is that most of the problem is based on ignorance. In Europe, the media push an image of America that is largely negative, sometimes even bordering on neo-fascist; in America, we often present positive images of Europe’s generous social benefits without mentioning the negative side effects. Germany has cradle to the grave handouts for its citizens; it also has a large class of unemployed, underemployed, and often unemployable people with no real means of surviving outside of direct handouts from the nanny state. For many Americans, Europe is sitting in a café in the shadow of the Eiffel Tower; they have no idea that a mere 15 km away on the other side of the Périférique, immigrants are stashed away in squalid buildings fit only for rats and cockroaches. I remember once on a bus in France, the ticket inspectors got on to check if we had all paid. The ignored 95% of the passengers and immediately descended on an African family; in addition to asking for tickets, they were also asked to provide valid residency visas. When they couldn’t, we were all taken to a different stop in the city where we were met by Gendarmes who took the family into custody. These types of things are rarely seen by Americans. Living in Europe made me completely alter my political orientation.
It’s is a great analogy. At the GAP or Best Buy you can just say ‘nevermind’ and walk away. I’m sure the same is true with the police in Arizona. Becuase, you know, one is voluntary exchange, and the other has the force of the state behind it.
You can as an illegal. You can go home.
And I speak as someone who was an illegal in France for probably 10 years.
In France I have to have my papers on me at all times, and can be asked for them at any time.
Citizens have 48 hours to take them to a police station.
he he he he he
I really struggle these days finding reason to go on living in this ‘through the looking glass’ world.
Perhaps San Franciscans should boycott New York City? They’ve been using
Gestapo tacticsStop and Frisk disproportionately against Blacks and Hispanics for just ages.Colonel Klink is da MAN!!!
When you make a purchase with Mastercard, the merchant is supposed to verify your signature against the signature on the back of the card. (You did sign your card, didn’t you?) To demand to see a drivers license is against the Mastercard Merchants Agreement, as well as being against the law in several states.
That is a very doubtful comment Ernie G! Yes, signatures should be verified, but with card in a wallet most of 24/7 signatures quickly become illegible.
As well, MANY signatures are just plainly not readable. (like mine)
For me, most often, it’s an ID check to see if ID name matches name on card. And if writing check, they also look for a match on address too, and often write driver’s license number on check as well.
In about past seven years, I’ve had two or three rashes of fraudulent charges against cards. The first time it happened it took me a couple days worth of phone calls to get it all resolved. I much was speedier the next couple times.
So with that, I’m always quite pleased to see an ID check on me when I’m using a credit card. And often thank them for doing that.
Patrick, you may doubt the wisdom of the policy set forth in the Merchant Agreement, but not that it exists. It is a fact. The MasterCard web site has a page for reporting Merchant Violations:
http://www.mastercard.com/us/personal/en/contactus/merchantviolations.html
There is a list of the four possible violations:
In order to make a MasterCard purchase, the merchant/retailer required a minimum or maximum amount.
The merchant/retailer is adding a charge for using your MasterCard card.
The merchant/retailer required identification.
A merchant/retailer displaying the MasterCard decal in their window refused to accept my MasterCard card.
Arizona Senate Bill 1070 May wish to read it….
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf
satire-the use of wit, irony, sarcasm and ridicule, to attack the vices of humankind(Encarta World English Dictionary) – not sure everybody is on the same page … but is was hilarious, thanks! How about opening a dorm or hostel next to the White House, so the O can visit and convert as often as he wants??
Neo-Nazi nothing. This is Neo-Nazi 2.0! The next thing you know they will start profiling people who earn money to have done so illegally, rather than through producing and consuming products and services, and tax them to compensate the victims of free commerce! Dis-miiiiised!
Yeah, real Americans are lining up for miles at 4 A.M. to pick strawberries for $3.50 and hour.
$3.50? Isn’t that below the minimum wage?
Why are lefties so eager to see minimum wage laws violated? Why are you people so heartless!
(If the illegals weren’t able to undercut citizens, then the labor they do would either be done by Americans at competitive wages, or the labor would be automated.)
If people find the wage ridiculous, they can walk away, you know.
Show me anywhere here in the states that forces you to do that kind of work.
Forced to work in a gulag in other countries, they won’t even pay you that kind of money.
I wonder if this law will keep obama out of AZ
This morning, some idiot from DC was going on about how this law authorizes the police to stop anyone on the street and demand their ID.
Why is it that liberals feel the need to lie about everything?
Because the freshness label on their tired, hackneyed, old fascist axioms has run out and they don’t have any principles with which to replace them. Secularism, by definition, has no fixed or absolute principles which allows these folks to float in the breeze, letting their positions float on a sea of political fashion, as changeable as a fickle woman with a bad and angry attitude. Now while that may appear as a source of strength to folks desiring to follow their heart’s content and exhibit their arrogant self-centredness for all the world to witness, it also means that when challenged they only have flimsy sayings, vacuous rationales, and Platonic inverted logic with which to respond. That is, nothing reasoned out, nothing based on agreed values, nothing of value that lasts any longer than this weeks’ political fashion.
So, given that loss of anchoring strength, what else would they do?
As one of the earlier posters suggested, read the law. It is written in such a way as to make any LEO capable of stopping virtually anyone on the historically thin, often abused, grounds of “reasonable suspicion”. And just in case said LEO might have given a 2nd thought to the matter, he is urged on by another provision that grants him all sorts of immunity based on “good faith.” To repeat something I posted on another thread: If I decide to put on a sombrero and sing Celito Lindo in a public park next Wednesday to celebrate Cinco di Mayo, I don’t think that should open me up to some official demanding I show ID, let alone government-issued ID.
Let me suggest, in addition, that many of those who here seem happy to hand over an ever-widening role to Officialdom with regard to this anti-immigration measure, would be less happy to see anyone suggest that they have no need of 2nd Amendment protections from those same, always benign, government authorities. And let me save you the effort of shrieking again at the damn liberals: I’ve been a registered Republican and a supporter of conservatives all my adult life (35+years), got my first NRA membership when I was 12, etc. This is just a bad law, even if enacted in a worthy cause.
The law in essence does allow for the police to ask anyone. Have you ever jay walked? That would be enough for the police to stop you. Law just says legal contact. Are you familiar with a terry stop?? That means they need very little reason to stop you to ask for your papers. I think the better question is why are you not more upset about the clear intrusion onto our constitutional rights????
The law was changed today. It now says “legal stop, detention, or arrest”.
A terry stop is a legal stop.
Thank God that Arizona has the guts to stand up and be counted, especially with ever major company, nearly ever congressman, senator, federal employee, and Hussin himself against them.
ARIZONA “THANK YOU”
Did you ever try to donate blood? How’s that for an experience with proving exactly who you are and submitting to intrusive and embarrassing questions. Just so you can give your own blood to some patient or accident victim who may need it to survive. No good deed goes unpunished.
To Brian N.
“Non citizens can get papers, I have friends studying from abroad who can get drivers license.”
These friends who are studying here, are here legally. I’m sure they have documentation that attests to that fact. THAT is why and how they get driver’s licenses.
How can we take this article seriously with Colonel Klink as a pictorial reference? Maybe a picture of General Burkhalter or Major Hochshtetler perhaps. At least Obama and other politicos can be played by John Banner AKA Sgt Schultz, “They know nothink, nothink”, in their see no evil hear no evil policy on illegal aliens as illegals enter the US as often as Hogan’s crew escaping Stalag 13. It really is a comedy show but the joke is on us.
I don’t want to break the mood here, but a store has no legal right to ask you for ID for credit card that is presented to them. The credit card agreements between the store and the credit card company as well as the agreement between the card holder and the credit card company all say that the purchased must be processed when the card is presented. The card doesn’t even have to be signed. (The exception to this is people that put “ask for ID” where the signature is. That is basically a security procedure that the card holder initiates, but is not binding to the credit card company or the store.)
The point I am trying to make is that the initial post makes a good point, albeit unintentionally. The fact of the matter is that people argue out of ignorance. The idea that Best Buy can ask for ID for a legally presented credit card is the same ignorance as those who argue that the Arizona bill says that people can be stopped and papers demanded just while walking down the street.
Neither are true,
About a year ago, I inadvertently found myself outside of airport security with only a credit card (long, silly story). You find out very quickly how necessary “papers” are to legally move around our country. The security people interviewed me and very quickly called up, in great detail, quite a bit of intelligence about me and my family, including number of years at the residence, the previous residence (10 years ago), cars we drive, and location of nearest relative. The process was fine and I recognized it as necessary, but nonetheless a little creepy and definitely eye opening. This whole debate is ridiculous – respect our laws.
Nice post man… going to post this on the facebook wall if that’s cool with ya ? By: Cheap Deals Holiday