Factchecking the NYT Ground Zero Mosque Editorial
The delayed “reconciliation” here celebrated by the Times that eventually allowed the appearance of additional Confederate monuments at Gettysburg (but not until well into the next century — the first was Virginia’s monument in 1917) does have one striking similarity to the reconciliation with American Muslims that the Times sees symbolized by the Ground Zero mosque. It is not, however, a similarity that strengthens the Times’s argument.
Just as critics of the Ground Zero mosque believe its Muslim supporters remain insufficiently assimilated to America and too sympathetic to alien values, the “reconciliation” with the former Confederates represented by the acceptance of their monuments occurred on decidedly Confederate terms. As Yale’s David Brion Davis, one of the leading historians of slavery and anti-slavery, wrote (as it happens, 10 days before 9/11):
The United States is only now beginning to recover from the Confederacy’s ideological victory following the Civil War. Though the South lost the battles, for more than a century it attained its goal: that the role of slavery in America’s history be thoroughly diminished, even somehow removed as a cause of the war. The reconciliation of North and South required a national repudiation of Reconstruction as “a disastrous mistake”; a wide-ranging white acceptance of “Negro inferiority” and of white supremacy in the South; and a distorted view of slavery as an unfortunate but benign institution that was damaging for whites morally but helped civilize and Christianize “African savages.”
Despite Prof. Davis’s almost tendentious moralism, there is much evidence for his point of view in the un-Reconstructed values expressed in many of the dedications of the Southern monuments at Gettysburg. As reported in Sacred Ground, Henry Carter Stuart, governor of Virginia, remarked in dedicating his state’s monument in 1917 that the conflict between the sections had been caused only by “divergent views of [the] Constitution.” Robert E. Lee, he continued, remained a model for those “rallying to the defense of our liberty against the aggression of a foreign foe.”
Another of the Virginia dedications went further, declaring that Virginia’s motives in the war were pure because Lee and indeed the whole state opposed slavery, and moreover “that Southern whites, not blacks, bore the real burden of slavery,” and he “insisted that the governing of a ‘race incapable of self-government’ brought a greater benefit to the governed than the governors.’”
The next monument honoring Confederates was not installed at Gettysburg until 1929 (North Carolina), and Alabama’s followed in 1933. The remaining Confederate states did not begin to place monuments on the battlefield until the 1960s, and Tennessee’s, in 1982, is the last. Controversies continued to shadow these monuments. In 1965, for example, the Gettysburg park historian objected to an inscription on the Confederate Soldiers and Sailors Monument that characterized the Confederates as “defenders of their country,” and in 1971 the park superintendent objected to the Mississippi Gettysburg Memorial Commission’s use of the phrase “righteous cause” in its monument’s inscription.
Presumably the editors of the New York Times would not have been so enthusiastic about the “graciousness and reconciliation” extended to the erring Southern sisters in welcoming Confederate monuments at Gettysburg if they had bothered to familiarize themselves with the nature of that reconciliation, just as they have not extended much sympathy to those displaying Confederate flags more recently.
But if it is true that the Times would not have welcomed onto hallowed ground representatives of any group that regarded the Klan as righteous and refused to describe it as a terrorist organization, why does it call for welcoming self-described (and elite media-described) Muslim “moderates” who refuse to describe Hamas as terrorist and look forward to the day when Jews will be a minority in an Arab Israel with “graciousness and reconciliation”?
What would be a most welcome and pleasant change would be for the Times and its favorite op-ed pontificators to start treating Republicans, tea partiers, and even ordinary conservatives with the same spirit of “graciousness and reconciliation” that it extends to dead Confederates and Muslim Ground Zero mosque organizers of questionable moderation.






‘Fact check’ at the NY Times? Surely you jest. It’s ‘All the News that Fits….’, 24 /7.
There is a strange memorial in Oak Bluffs, Massachusetts on the island of Martha’s Vineyard: that of a Union Soldier, dedicated by a Confederate veteran of the Civil War. The inscription reads “Erected in honor of the Grand Army of the Republic by Charles Strahan, Co B 21 Virginia Reg.” Wikipedia notes: “It was originally painted in a color scheme which resembled that of the cottages. But in 1980 the Oak Bluffs City Council had it repainted in the confederate color in honor of Charles Strahan.” From a distance, the gray figure looks like a rebel soldier – and I’ve always thought it was a strange choice, given Oak Bluff’s history as a gathering place for vacationing blacks from the mainland.
These PC conscious neolib journalists such as those at NYTimes have become nothing more than hypocrites and liars!!! They are elitists and have no sensibilities or common sense and they are always ready to “lecture” the American citizens who are much wiser than them. Even the editors of NYT and such media papers should sometime wonder why their opinions are always against the wishes of the people or may be they have lost that capacity altogether due the mental blindness caused by MC disease!!!
“What would be a most welcome and pleasant change would be for the Times and its favorite op-ed pontificators to start treating Republicans, tea partiers, and even ordinary conservatives with the same spirit of “graciousness and reconciliation” that it extends to dead Confederates and Muslim Ground Zero mosque organizers of questionable moderation.” John Rosenberg
It is a noble thought to believe that the tone and level of acrimony
could be diminished between the waring factions in today’s USA.
Post No.3. by “Jaladhi” is somewhat representative of the problem.
Six bullets aimed at the “neoliberals” in one post.
1.) hypocrites and liars!!!
2.) elitists
3.) no sensibilities or common sense
4.) always ready to “lecture” the American citizens who are much wiser than them.
5.)their opinions are always against the wishes of the people
6.)may be they have lost that capacity altogether due the mental blindness caused by MC disease!!!
Hello Lawrence, my post simply tells the truth about present day liberals!!! All your six items from my post the truth about the MSM and likes of NYTimes!!
Just to throw some more monumental Civil War trivia into the mix – there is but a single monument to Unionists on formerly Confederate soil. It was put up shortly after the war ended, over the remains of of men killed while attempting to leave the area to join the Union Army. The monument is in Comfort, Texas, where there was strong pro-Union and abolitionist feelings in the German Hill Country. There’s a picture of it, halfway down this article: http://open.salon.com/blog/sgt_mom/2010/03/15/comfort_and_welfare_-_a_texas_road_trip_with_pictures
I have seen a lot of Union monuments on formerly Confederate soil: at Stones River (Tennessee), Chickamauga (Georgia)and Spottsylvania Courthouse (Virginia)just to name a few.
Walt in DC:
Sir, there is no such thing as Condederate soil. There is only the soil of the United States of America.
The U.S. currently holds the real estate, at the point of a gun. Don’t flatter yourself that your hold on the residents goes a scintilla further.
Heh–the preceding sentiment which only strengthens Mr. Rosenberg’s argument vis-a-vis the GZM.
Well, genius, that’s why he qualified it with “formerly”.
There is a monument to the Illinois dead at Kennesaw Mountain, Georgia.
‘Way back in the last century there was a ‘cartoon art’ poster of NYC that at the bottom (i.e. tight foreground) were a couple of important intersections; in the mid-ground, the general suburbs; at the top (basically background) the plains and mountains.
Nice to see New Yawkers still prioritize like that.
Tao,
You’re probably thinking about the famous New Yorker magazine cover by Saul Steinberg. Here’s a link to it:
http://johnnyholland.org/wp-content/uploads/new-yorker-steinberg-cover.jpg
Thank you for much more detail and sources on the controversies over Confederate memorials on Gettysburg.
I took such exception to the NYT falsehood about Gettysburg that I submitted this comment, which is still #19 in reader’s recommendations:
NYT: “The country often has had the wisdom to choose graciousness and reconciliation over triumphalism, as is plain from the many monuments to Confederate soldiers in northern states, including the battlefield at Gettysburg.”
K2K: “Americans have a history of deep commitment to remembering history, and commemorating historic sites, especially of searing tragedies and military battles.
It is historians who are the most opposed to the proposed gambling casino one half mile from Gettysburg Battlefield, where the land was drenched in the blood of 51,000 casualties during the three day battle July 1-3, 1863. Gettysburg is where President Abraham Lincoln gave his most memorable address on November 18, 1863, at the dedication of the Soldiers National Cemetery.
The casino is proposed 2,640 feet away from Gettysburg National Military Park, which includes the Battlefield, National Cemetery, Museum and Visitor Center, and 1,328 monuments, markers and memorials to every brigade and battalion. The battle over the proposed casino continues today.
There was much controversy over how to deal with the dead soldiers of the Confederacy. They were seen as invaders, and the Confederate dead were moved from the Gettysburg cemetery to cemeteries in North and South Carolina, Georgia, and Virginia between 1871 and 1873.
It took more than fifty years of healing before any monument to a Confederate state was allowed, when the Virginia Monument was dedicated in 1917.
The effort by NYC firefighter and 9/11 survivor Timothy Brown to landmark 45 Park Place should not be misunderstood as ‘bigotry’. Brown has devoted his time to landmarking other 9/11 damaged sites. Once I read the history of the men who built 45 Park Place in 1858, Paul Spofford and Thomas Tileston, I decided that this one tax lot truly represented the story of New York City since 1609, when it was still forest just steps from the shore of the Hudson River.
I still remember exactly how I felt, in 1992, atop the observation tower overlooking the field where Pickett’s Charge led so many Confederate soldiers knowingly to their death, and still try to understand the frame of mind that shaped such irrational devotion to duty. I can still feel the presence of their spirit, how the cool October air at sunset felt filled with the dead soldiers.
I have no such problem understanding how so many Americans feel about our history and strong commitment to remembering and commemorating historic sites, especially of searing tragedies and military battles.
Perhaps THAT understanding or lack thereof is what divides Americans, and what Mayor Bloomberg and others do not understand when they tell the rest of us to “shut up”.
It is truly unfortunate that the only building to survive a direct hit on 9/11/2001 is being offered up for destruction to build an undefined project by novice real estate developers who seem to have no respect for anything or anyone, driven solely by their ambition.”
postscript: If I could just get someone more interested in the men who built 45 Park Place, Paul Spofford and Thomas Tileston, and their contributions to the growth of New York City by pioneering steam-powered shipping! Timothy Brown’s lawsuit challenging the arbitrary and capricious vote of the Landmarks Preservation Commission NEEDS historians and preservationists to join the lawsuit in order to
preserve the last standing building in Manhattan in THEIR memory. Spofford & Tileston are role models for what it means to be patriots and entrepeneurs with integrity and honesty. I was too kind in my comment. The developers of Park51 are bereft of integrity. All of them game the system, representing the worst of America.
“Israel will, in our lifetimes, become one more Arab country, with a Jewish minority.”
If that isnt THE terrorist manifesto expressed in a single sentence, then terrorism does not exist.
Although allowed to lie by way of the murderous pedophile Mohammed, the truth of what ALL muslims believe is abundantly clear to even the most casual honest observer. By their very own WORDS and by their continuous ACTIONS, their ultimate end game and their justification of means to achieve it are without question.
We only need the courage to call “Bullshit” when it is indeed Bullshit.
Their “religion” is an evil, indefensible theology of hatred, war, and oppression.
Say it, repeat it, PROVE it with their own words, deeds, and scriptures.
“untill the rocks and trees shout out “oh, fair person, beware there is evil lurking behind me, and they mean you great harm” “
And he left off the part about jizya.
Israel will, in our lifetimes, become one more Arab country, with a Jewish minority.”
If that isnt THE terrorist manifesto expressed in a single sentence, then terrorism does not exist.“
He allowed that Jews would still live there and not be exterminated. That makes him a moderate.
My mom lives in Virginia’s very rural Northern Neck, where the locals call the Civil War “the war between the states”, “the recent unpleasantness”, or “the war of Northern aggression.”
I’m not a big fan of the splashy new cultural center being proposed on Park Place. However, I would like to note that Mr. Rosenberg exaggerates mightily and appeals to emotion throughout his article.
Park Place is hardly “hollowed ground;” it is populated by a gentleman’s strip club; a Mac Donald’s restaurant; and many mom-and-pop convenience stores. It was never part of the World Trade Center Complex. It is a marginal everyday “profane” commercial strip. I worked on the 31st Floor of WTC No. 2 for three-and-one-half years. Park Place was very marginal to my work-a-day life at WTC No. 2.
The landing gear fell on 51 Park Place. So what? My residence is approximately 1.5 miles from WTC in Brooklyn. The WTC dust and debris plumb was carried by the winds over my residence and the borough of Brooklyn for many days. Does this make Brooklyn “hollowed ground,” too? We could smell the death, see the heavy particles settle on us and our property. It is terrifying and horrible just to think about it.
I think those that are making political hay over the location of the Muslim culture center on Park Place are demagogic. I think the center is too ambitious, splashy as a religious site. It has rapidly become a foreign policy concern of the United States government.
It is very much hollowed ground–haven’t you see the hole?
Oh, wait, maybe you meant ‘hallowed’ ground? Let’s run with that, okay?
Hallowed ground isn’t built to be hallowed. Somerthing happens that makes it so. Do you understand? The strip club and the McDonalds do not detract from that. The building getting hit is what happened to ‘hallow’ it.
It is clear you have never been to Park Place in NYC.
“The landing gear fell on 51 Park Place. So what? ”
Duh, thats THE reason they want THAT particular building as the Shrine to the Magnificent 18. There are several buildings available in the vacinity, but it HAS to be THAT one for the Cordoba Victory Mosque…
The one building available that was actually STRUCK, not by some random piece of debris, but by a part of the machine they had under their control on their glorious mission.
They will worship the evidence, and revere being in the presence of an actual piece of the “Broken Lance” wielded by their faithful warriors.
“I think the center is too ambitious, splashy as a religious site”
Of course it is…ambitious, over the top, splashy, with a “muslim only” worship site at the very TOP of the building where they can worship the sacred site of “proof”…the place of “evidence”, of “success” while all the stupid Dhimmi’s BELOW them are of course excluded from this “sacred” visage.
These people know what theyre doing. Its such an important victory they cannot let it go, why else would they fight so hard over the symbolism, if there is (as many a muslim appologist suggests) no symbolism?
I personally think calling Ground Zero “hallowed” was a mistake, although it has been established it seems as a primary argument (since, who is going to mess with hallowed ground?). The truth is that it is not hallowed, at least, not in the sense that the word ‘hallowed’ has any meaning. Only God can make something hallowed, and I seriously doubt that getting attacked by Muslims (be they demons out of hell or not) is indicative that God has hallowed the spot. However, despite my apparent coldness to Ground Zero’s hallowedness, I still think the GZM is simply a “victory mosque”, and must be rejected. We have a right to trust our intuitions, and this mosque center stinks.
If the backers of this mosque would only build first, in a Muslim land, a mosque/center that gives tribute to 9-11 and the condemnation of the attackers and their ideology then I would turn. That is one way that I would believe they are actually trying to build bridges, because without such a gesture there actually is nothing that publicly qualifies Muslim trust. Nothing. America was the nation that instituted Freedom of Religion.
People need to really consider that fathomable line that discerns between Freedom of Speech and Religion from lying and planting flags.
The problem with your arguement is the strip club, the McDonalds (who in American can’t spell McDonalds right?), and the Mom&Pop stores were all there BEFORE 9/11 occurred.
The Imam says he wants to build this Mosque, a house of worship that DID NOT EXIST prior to the 9/11 Attacks, is supposedly to “…build bridges between religions and cultures.” However, everything that has happened since all this came to light has shown he is more interested in burning bridges and poking his finger in the eye of the families of the 9/11 victims. Any sane man without a hidden agenda, whose real intentions were to actually build bridges, would realize what he is doing is causing quite the opposite and make concessions to ease minds and assure the public and families.
I consider myself a liberal, and often a defender of the rights and the basic goodness of the majority of Muslims. But you and I agree on this one. If these are people who genuinely care about the people of NYC in particular and their fellow Americans in general, they would understand the sentiments of everyone involved. They would gain so much more respect if they admitted the strength of those feelings and withdrew their plans, sold the site, and built in another block. What can they gain by insisting on building there? People must stop blaming “all Muslims” for anything. (I hope to God Muslims arent’ blaming “all Christians” because of that idiot Quran burner.) But most Christians would have the sensitivity not to build a Cathedral on the grave of 3,000 Muslims. It is just common courtesy, even common sense.
By the way – I do not see the relevance of 19th century civil war issues. This was American Christians versus American Christians. These are statues, not churches. The debate has turned to one about the facts of the Civil War.
Good grief.
For all the Ground Zero vs. Gettysburg debate, one point was not mentioned — the Confederates *lost* at Gettysburg. Islamists see the destruction of the WTC towers as a *win* for their side. And…the Confederates surrendered at Appomattox. The modern jihadist movement will surrender…???
Such a comparison.
. .
The New York Times is not aware that /any/ monument to the Confederacy erected anywhere is immedeatly decried as “RACIST”?
. .
I thought the NYT led the charge to get such “monuments to racism” torn down.
comparison to Civil war may be appropraite as ISLAM is a separatist/secessionist movement any time demographics allows for it (India occupied land known as Pakistan and Balkans for example where SERBIA has ben STOLEN by civil war ofr Kosovo for example)
and that until they can make that many babies to win by voters & politics, they will continue to represent a traitorous fifth column, attempting to rig elections. wage lawfare, infilrtrate and spy on all our industry and govt technology etc, and otherwise influence and sell their agenda–
the goala and methods are not a secret- SHOUTED and repeated on EVERY Islamic media and mosque, proved factual over and over historically, being enacted in many countries around the world- while certain group wishes to tell us to ignore it- mayb if we are nice they will just quit, change their minds, they tell us ignore everythin you see and hear and believe my fantasy Muslims relly love you, they want to live as equals, most are not dangerous,..blah blah blah
yeah sure
Having babies might have taken Muslims further than any of their other tactics, what with all the other enlightened nations of the world killing their own. Also, an interesting study is to note how the agenda of the Left and Islamists seem to vector quite nice. Coincidence? or Evil mobilizing?
And now to add to the mix, Imam Rauf last night in an interview on Larry King Live stated that moving the project to another location would strengthen Islamist radicals’ ability to recruit followers and will likely increase violence against Americans.
That segment of the interview can be found here, the remarks are found from 3:50 to 5:35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd_TuTLu_Hw
What was most disturbing to me can be found at 4:30, after he said “If we move from that location…” then he pauses, and on his face you can see a subtle smile as he describes the deadly threat against Americans that action would cause. Creepy. Freeze the frame and see for yourself.
There are two reasons why Americans oppose the Ground Zero Mosque; the location as well as Rauf himself.
Here’s something else that gives some insight to the Imam’s personality. A radio interview from June 20th, 2006. They were off the air but Imam Rauf didn’t know that the conversation was being recorded and lucky for those of us who are curious as to what this man is really all about, the recording can be found here,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-hqVOLEgec
A few things about Imam Rauf’s remarks are disturbing, beyond calling 9/11 a “watershed”.
“If the entertainment media, the news media, was broadcasted in print, describe and speak about the issues in a different way it can help change perceptions profoundly, because it’s the media, which helps shape perceptions to a great degree.”
I can’t think of a better definition for propaganda.
The other thing he said that rubbed me the wrong way;
“I’m the head coach of this strategic initiative, and the President of the United States, or the President of Malaysia, or the President of England (I think you mean Prime Minister, Rauf), is like a player you want to bring in for particular plays.”
Now, is it just me, or does that sound Machiavellian?
Perhaps there wouldn’t be such a backlash against the GZ mosque if it were some other Imam promoting it. Then again, a truly moderate Imam with good common sense would probably think better of it.
What is the idea behind putting the official symbol of the Department of Corrections of the City of New York at the top of the article, “Factchecking the NYT Ground Zero Mosque Editorial” by John Rosenberg?
This is clearly an attempt to associate a City of New York Department with the opinions expressed by Mr. Rosenberg.
Is is beyond bad journalism.
Department of CORRECTIONS…
CORRECTING the NYTs.
Get it now? It’s called parody.
I have a simple message to my favorite ethnic group: the gun-totin’ NASCAR fans.
Breed Fools.
er..wrong punctuation
BREED. Fools.
Once again, someone takes a few sentences out of context to fit the point of the article. Disgraceful.
well – the battle field I visited last year (and I forget the name – confusingly it has a “North” and a “South” name) certainly had plenty of Confederate memorials……so the basic premise of the article “there’s only one and it’s at Gettysburg) is just wrong…..so what else is incorrect??
it’s kinda funny don’t you think that we got this muslim sourge at the same time as the bedbug infestation.
time to spray them both, freeze them or heat them, or get the dogs to sniff at them. just so we get of the creeps.
I happened to see an interview with Imam Rauf last night, and this tool basically threatened us “unbelievers” here in the U.S., by saying that, since he and his Muslim backers have proposed building a Mosque at/near Ground Zero, any action taken by us here in the U.S. to stop its building would now cause a violent reaction by Islamists, violence directed both at our troops abroad and us here at home.
In other words, “do what we say or you’ll get hurt.”
Thinly veiled threats like this may work today in Spain, or France or England, but I doubt that they will work here just yet.
#18 – Seth – I heard Rauf’s interview and I agree with you.
America needs to know our ‘tolerance’ is our weakness and the Islam/Muslim imams and clerics know this and will use it against us. Our Leaders need to get some backbone. Sadly, Mr. Jones, as crazy as he may seem to some, is the only one standing up for America against Islam/Muslim radicals and sharia law.
No matter what we do appease or not, they still hate us and that is a fact.
Don’t really know why Rauf wants him and his sheep to be here if they feel they are so hated by Americans? Why didn’t the Media bring this question up to Mr Rauf? He is now playing the ‘victim card’ (manupilation) – they are afraid of American ‘violence’ (manupliation) against muslims. Give me a break, we are fired up for sure, but we ‘are not’ “radical islam” political cult. Actually we are tons more civilized…
Does anyone think our ‘founding fathers’ said ‘I wonder if England will ‘get mad ? Those guys had you know whats! And So do modern day Americans when they get fired up!
The interview clearly says the manupilation/propaganda is beginning … Beware of evil in sheeps clothing… This man is not to be trusted and Americans with any kind of ‘gut’ feelings are crystal clear aware of this.
Is Rauf ‘really’ in Allegiance with America? If so why is he trying to manupilate the situtation instead of denouncing ‘the anger’ ‘the danger’ Hamas, AlQuida, holy war – vehemently?? He speaks with both sides of his mouth. Are any of his ‘sheep’ here legally anyway?
They should build the Mosque next to the White House. Then Obama would not have to walk far to worship.
On the nine year anniversary of the WTC bombings I still take it personally. I still see it as an act of war. There has been no Muslim apology for killing almost 3000 innocents . There has been a suicide bombing almost every day for the last three weeks. It is a crime to be a Christian in a Muslim country. It is a crime to bring a bible into Saudi Arabia. Muslim attack Christian churches . Muslims attack their own places of worship. The facts are out there . “An addition of Muslims to a Nation is a subtraction in civilization.”
American Christian Infidel
Michael Canzano
The suspicions aren’t far from reality.
In 2008, a British polling agency published their findings: 35% of educated British Muslim youth, and 25% of American Muslim youth (defined as people aged 18 to 35 with a university education, or in the process of acquiring a degree) admitted that murder and terrorism in the name of Islam to avenge “offenses to their religion” was perfectly acceptable.