European Welfare State Model under Strain as Labor Tensions Rise
Europe has been hit by a wave of industrial and social unrest in recent days and weeks, as workers across the continent push back against efforts to cut government spending and drive down wages. The uncoordinated strikes and protests, which have taken place in at least a dozen European countries and have threatened to paralyze much of the continent, may be a harbinger of more unrest to come.
With much of Europe in or just barely out of recession and many millions of Europeans out of work and collecting welfare checks, governments large and small are scrambling to fix gaping budget holes in an effort to stave off financial disaster. In Spain, for example, the government spent twice as much as it took in during 2009, with unemployment benefits constituting the largest single component of government expenditures.
Many other European countries are in a similar bind. Indeed, with millions of long-term unemployed Europeans on track to becoming permanent wards of the state, the European social model is under strain as never before.
In some European countries, there has been tough talk about the need to roll back the much-vaunted welfare state. In Germany, for example, pro-business Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle recently called for a complete overhaul of the German social welfare system and warned that German workers were fast becoming “the nation’s suckers.” Westerwelle also said that increasing benefits to the long-term unemployed would create the kind of decadence that paved the way for the fall of the Roman Empire. “Whoever promises the people effortless prosperity encourages late Roman decadence,” Westerwelle declared. “Everyone who is young and healthy and has no relatives to look after must accept reasonable work, whether that is in the form of community work, a career or training,” he said.
Not surprisingly, Westerwelle’s comments have stirred considerable controversy. After all, the European social welfare state, which is supposed to guarantee a generous system of social benefits, relative wage and income equality, and a prominent role for organized labor, forms the basis of Europe’s post-World War II social order.
Increasingly, however, European governments (even some on the political left) are warning about the need to downsize the welfare state in order to save it. More and more frequently, there is talk of austerity and the need for belt-tightening measures, such as public pay freezes and raising the retirement age, designed to reduce the size of government. But angry European workers are having none of it.
It’s a similar story in the private sector, where companies are under pressure to restructure and/or downsize to remain viable. But European workers are growing increasingly restive, and many are taking to the streets.
Although many of the strikes and protests have been relatively short-lived, they represent growing popular resistance to attempts by European governments and corporations to cut back on spending. It remains to be seen whether European governments, which derive much of their political legitimacy from doling out social welfare benefits, will buckle under popular pressure and abandon reform.
However, if European governments stand firm and push through the painful austerity measures that many countries need to return to economic health, more labor strife will almost certainly follow. According to one analyst, the recent wave of protests could be “just the start of the greatest demonstration of public unrest seen on the continent since the revolutionary fervour of 1968.”
In any case, even if European publics are in denial about the future viability of the European social welfare state, a growing number of European governments seem to be acknowledging, albeit reluctantly, that their social and economic model is unsustainable. Strange, then, that many Americans view the European model as something to emulate rather than avoid.
What follows is a brief summary of some of the strikes and protest movements to hit Europe in recent days:
In Greece, where the government is striving to avert national bankruptcy, much of the country has gone on strike against government austerity measures. Public- and private-sector unions have called strikes to protest a range of measures aimed at reducing Greece’s budget deficit.
In Spain, where a 20 percent jobless rate and rising debt have prompted worries about a Greek-style budget crisis, workers in cities across the country have started protesting against the government’s proposal to raise the retirement age by two years to 67.
In France, an air traffic controllers strike grounded hundreds of flights in Paris, one of the busiest air travel hubs in Europe. French unions are protesting the planned consolidation of air traffic control networks in Europe. The planned merger could see French air traffic controllers, who are currently among the best paid in Europe, lose their generous perks, which include 30 weeks of vacation per year. (French air traffic controllers are required to work only 100 days a year.)
Also in France, a massive strike has hobbled operations at Total SA, Europe’s largest oil refiner. Employees are protesting a potential plan to close an oil refining plant in northern France; the plant at Flanders has been idle for more than six months due to a drop in demand for refined oil products. This being France, the government has intervened in the dispute by taking sides with the workers. The Industry Ministry has warned Total that it is “out of the question to close the Flanders refinery. Nor of course, to close any other one in France.”
(Meanwhile, France Telecom, the main telecommunications company in France, has replaced its CEO following a wave of suicides at the company. Nearly 40 France Telecom employees have committed suicide since January 2008. Labor unions blame the suicides on stress caused by the former CEO’s attempts to restructure and modernize France Telecom to meet intensifying competition from abroad.)
In Germany, some 4,000 pilots began what was meant to be a four-day strike at Lufthansa, Germany’s flagship carrier. The pilots are worried the company might try to cut staff costs by shifting jobs to its foreign subsidiaries, where wage costs are lower. Unions representing 16,000 Lufthansa cabin crew are threatening to join the pilots if the company fails to reach an agreement with them as well. Lufthansa pilots agreed to suspend their strike for two weeks after a court ruled against a claim by the union that the airline was obliged to apply German labor law to all of its employees, even those working outside Germany.
In Britain, the union representing 12,000 stewards and stewardesses for British Airways has threatened to strike. The dispute revolves around a decision by British Airways to reduce the number of staff on long-haul flights and to introduce a two-year pay freeze. The changes are forcing the cabin service directors (the most senior crew) to no longer just oversee the staff, but to start serving meals and drinks as well. In a statement, the union says British Airways cabin crew feel a “deep sense of grievance” about their treatment by their employer.
Also in Britain, more than 250,000 public sector workers are set to strike over what their union says are “macho” government cuts to redundancy payments. The government says the changes, which place caps on pay-offs to those laid off or taking voluntary redundancy, will save £500 million in taxpayer money. The union says the cuts are illegal and are threatening a series of rolling strikes throughout March and April, just weeks before the expected date of the general election, if the government refuses to back down.
In Italy, workers at the troubled car giant Fiat went on strike to protest the planned shutdown at the end of 2011 of an assembly plant in Sicily. (Even the Pope weighed in on the matter.) On February 22, Fiat abruptly halted production at all of its Italian plants for two weeks because of a fall in new car orders. The measure places 30,000 workers on unemployment benefits.
In Finland, dockworkers staged a strike following the breakdown of contract negotiations. The dockworkers union has threatened to call an open-ended strike, which would choke off most of the country’s exports.
In Belgium, workers at the Carrefour supermarket chain are bracing for a nationwide strike over plans to cut 1,672 jobs in Belgium and close 21 stores in the country by the end of June. Carrefour says its operations in Belgium are “structurally loss-making.”
In Poland, nurses are threatening a nationwide strike unless the Health Ministry can reach a deal on raises. Currently, nurses are on strike at four hospitals in southern Poland. Some have even begun a hunger strike while others have gathered outside the Health Ministry, playing revolutionary ballads from Poland’s communist era.
In Portugal, unions representing Portugal’s public-sector workers are preparing a national strike to challenge a wage freeze that the government says is necessary to cut a burgeoning budget deficit.
In Ireland, public sector workers have been staging a go-slow since February 1 in protest against pay cuts in last December’s austerity budget.
In the Czech Republic, transport workers are threatening to halt trains and buses to support their demand for a lower tax on benefits.






The EU better cobble together an army pretty quick.
Let’s see….some of us only have a job if we create value, revenues, profits, things like that. Apparently others get a job because they whine and stomp their feet? What doesn’t smell right here?
Woah, c’est la merda in Europe !
“Total that it is “out of the question to close the Flanders refinery. Nor of course, to close any other one in France.”
Total is a multi-billionnaire enterprise, and want to delocate in countries with cheaper labor force.
I support my government which defensed french labor force
My oh my! The whole world has its troubles, doesn’t it! If the Europeans were to kick out its Muslim scut workers and stoop laborers, so that Europeans would have to work, and would have work, there would be a low unemployment level, higher tax receipts flowing in and an easing of the crises faced by these successors to Nazi Germany. Paying young women allowances to have babies, as well as child allowances already in place, and encouraging young NON-MUSLIM women to have babies, might over time rescue the Europeans from their too well deserved demise.
But the fools will not do this. So they deserve the hell that awaits them.
Maybe we could wait to pass Obamacare, slowing down to see which EU member State collapses first. Unfortunately, it is just too likely to be California instead.
Europe is finished. The Lisbon Treaty did it in.
Europeans haven’t figured it out yet. That is because the smart Euros have been moving to America for the last couple of centuries. That left the not so smart behind.
Like anything with a large body and small brain, Europe will go on kicking for a while even though it’s dead. Don’t be fooled by that. Just act surprised when the scavengers show up to deal with the corpse.
Yeah, isn’t it a pain to have to actually PAY for your own entitlements (/s):
http://article.nationalreview.com/426405/when-responsibility-doesnt-pay/mark-steyn
If Europe is already broke, how will it pay the Jizya tax to its Muslim overlords?
Good article but left one one salient fact; the spectacle of international bankers making off with billions of public dollars while the average joe looses his/her job. European workers think they are in trouble now? Wait until Soros and friends ruin the Euro!
Reap the whirlwind.
Wow, who knew that the economic demise of Europe was caused by, of all things, simple math? You see, you can’t spend more money than you take in. Complicated concept, right? You can’t spend more in social-welfare benefits than you take in with taxes. That, coupled with Europe’s horrible demographics (you see, dear readers, they’re not having any kids, so there is no new generation to support the older, greedier generation), is sending Europe down a fiscal rat hole that it can’t get out of. You really think any of these governments are going to cut all of these benefits? Not a chance. They are going to do the two things they always do, gut what is left of their defense and borrow more money. “Too big to fail” also applies in Europe and there will be plenty of countries willing to fund their social-welfare states, even if it means going, hat in hand, to the Chinese or Japanese.
But wait, doesn’t the above scenario sound familiar? Spending more than you take in, paying for a bloated and inefficient government, and refusing to cut spending? Hmmm, that does sound familiar. Are we talking about Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Spain, or Italy? Why no, friends, we’re talking about the good old USA! What you see happening in Europe is what is going to be happening here in the United States in about a year or two. The only reason it’s not happening now is because the Europeans have been at this massive reckless spending longer than we have. But, hey, we have something to shoot for here in America, right? We always do things bigger and better than the rest of the world, so it’s only natural that we have a bigger and better debt than Europe, which means bigger and better protests and social unrest when our financial system finally does collapse. We’ll show those silly Europeans that we can “beat” them at their own game!
Marie Claude, if a company can’t turn a profit, it can’t stay in business. You’d be surprised how quickly those billions can dry up.
Maybe Total can’t support that refinery. If so, then they will lose money keeping it open. If they lose money, they can’t pay high wages at other refineries. If they can’t pay high wages, they would need to find people willing to work for lower wages. If the French aren’t willing to work for lower wages, then they need to find workers elsewhere. If they aren’t allowed to find workers elsewhere, they will eventually go out of business, and then NOBODY gets paid, and NOBODY gets any job benefits.
Economics is all about cause and effect.
My dear american friends, no need to be haughty. Please look at your deficit, in order to avoid a state bankruptcy and an economic meltdown you will have to do the same cutting back at spending. The advantage you have is less people used to state welfare, more conservatives and less muslims.
Europe is simply all third-rail today. IMHO, they’ll never get the voters to pay for themselves nor retract their welfare systems. Where they’ll end up is an Islamic conrolled communist state not unlike the way the Taliban ran Afghanistan before 9/11.
Andy Stern is now a member of the deficit review commission, why?I can’t figure that out,but the majority of the EU protesters are unionized government workers or private unions subsidized by the government who don’t want the gravy train to run out.
Ruvy
yeah, and in Israel you don’t have cheap foreign labor force ? precisely the same that you reproach us !
Nott are you supporting the Cies that are ruining America too ?
Last I heard of them, they import their labels from China
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=alet_UTqF04M
Fannie Seeks $15.3 Billion in Aid After 10th Loss
Pound Could Collapse in Weeks US bankrupted, Predicts Billionaire Financier Jim Rogers
http://tinyurl.com/ydtjhty
Enjoy, my greeting from Europe with still an unemployment rate under 10,
America ? not rated since it overpassed 20
Zaza,
Very nicely written. I write from Japan, which is in serious trouble as well: massive debts, shrinking population, minimal immigration, highest corporate tax in the developed world, and a trend away from once-definitive saving.
Greece is America’s future, especially with that Chavez wannabe in the White House.
Robbing Peter to pay for Paul’s vote is immoral. Therein lies the pith of the crisis. Socialism erodes the work ethic, encourages indolence, promotes vice, and transfers political and economic power into the hands of thieves. The end of civic virtue is the death knell of any civilization. ‘Tis a bitter harvest.
Is America any better? Quite obviously, yes. Contrast the current European tantrum with American-style tea parties. The former demands continued entitlements; the other is demanding fiscal responsibility. The Europeans believe they have “rights” granted by the state. Americans believe in liberty commensurate with personal responsibility. The continentals act like trust fund babies living off the largess of previous generations. Americans are concerned to leave something for posterity.
The contrast between the two cultures could not be more vivid. The Europeans whine and pout like spoiled children. Americans are waiting for a leader who will deliver a message fit for adults: “I have nothing to offer but hard work and discipline. We must pay our debts. There will be lean times ahead, but we can overcome this crisis.” The American populace is already rising to the occasion. We need now only the right leader.
Socialists love money,especially if it’s others people’s money…Example: myself…I work as a driver for a company..I am not in business for myself..I get a weekly paycheck…I pay almost 30% in fed and state taxes,the largest being for something called Fed OASDI/EE..What is this tax???..Where does this money go to???…I don’t mind paying taxes, but what boils my blood is WHERE DOES THIS MONEY GO TO?????…No accountability for those in government…This health care bill (that IS going to be passed)does not address billions of dollars in fraud and abuse…What comes to mind is the Big Dig in Boston,Ma…A 23 to 24 BILLION DOLLAR project that started more than a decade ago and is not even finished yet…I broke down the numbers and it came to this: 3 BILLION DOLLARS a MILE, 52 MILLION DOLLARS A FOOT!!!!!….And it is only for a 7 mile stretch of roadway!!!!……Like I said…Socialists love money,especially if its other people’s money…..
And it’s different here? The unions own the Dems and the Dems own the Federal Gummint and most of the Big State Gummints. The Fed is broke, California is broke, New York is broke and do you here a word of restraint? The interlocking gummint thugs and union thugs will suicide us rather than give an inch.
Gee, it seems that European Serfalism is running out of Other People’s Money. I’m glad Iron Maggie is still alive to see her prediction come true.
Unfortunately, #13 Zaza is dead on right. We are all in the same situation, an unsustainable economic policy that leads right over the edge of the cliff. When the whole thing collapses, and it will unless we can turn it around, everyone is going to be impoverished, including the current ruling, wealthy elite. What will come after that will depend on what we learn from this exercise in stupidity.
13. Zaza:
Correct, we in America are far more self-sufficient. I have said it before and I will say it again. It is genetic. The best left Europe for America long ago. And whatever europe had left, in the way of independent/conservative genetics took another big hit in the two wars. Leaving europe in a leftist genetic evolutionary dead end.
On the economic front, the E.U. is a house of cards, and the wind is picking up. We need to let nature take it’s course. Close our military bases in Europe, bring the boys home and let Europe purge itself of what ails it, or be replaced with a stronger more self sufficient people. Preferably Eastern Europeans and or the Russ.
Continuous welfare is the bane of man’s economical existance
There is little that I admire about Europe. Unfortunately the USA seems to be emulating them. Our present administration is of little help getting off this road.
But, what happens when the money the socialists love to spend is gone??? The chroically unemployed, the overpriced projects ..21 and 22 are right.
“fly bait” is here spewing her hatred of America.
Iron Maggie will go to popular soup too, doesn’t she get her retirement from government ?
We are headed toward a Muslim world because in their world it is not expected that there will be work for every able-bodied man (and certainly for an able-bodied woman). Poverty is simply expected even in the face of human effort to avert it. Inshallah
THe higher the tax rates go, the less money government takes in. Their response is again to raise taxes, and again they get less money than before.
The only reason Europe could have gone there to begin with is that America sustained them in military terms for the past seventy years. Soon we’ll all see that even so, even with a ‘pass’ on military spending, no nation or group of nations can redistribute wealth on such a massive scale without a firm, solid base of productive people being productive. When you discourage that, as ‘free money’ socialism does, you have nothing to tax. Government produces nothing and can only tax. When productivity is decreased, government cannot keep its promises.
GOodbye EUrope.
French air traffic controllers work 100 days per year and get thirty (!) weeks of vacation.
Where do I sign up?
You do realize that at the moment US unemployment benefits pay 99 weeks? You can get paid not to work for almost two years.
No wonder they call it “funemployment.”
Marie Claude, we used to have a billionaire company that should have closed some plants but didn’t and was losing one billion dollars per month. It’s called General Motors.
We thought it was impossible to go bankrupt. But it did.
’28. Marie Claude:
Iron Maggie will go to popular soup too, doesn’t she get her retirement from government ?’
No dear. She has a lot of money.
It is maybe a little unfortunate that a political grown-up should happen to have covered the same ground just this morning:
http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/beat_the_press_archive?month=02&year=2010&base_name=the_nyt_interupts_the_europe_b
Healthy days.
…a growing number of European governments seem to be acknowledging, albeit reluctantly, that their social and economic model is unsustainable. Strange, then, that many Americans view the European model as something to emulate rather than avoid.
Strange, indeed.
But who ever said that hard economic truth or facts should get in the way of committed, big government socialism ?
And there is always the scapegoat angle to try, loved by socialists and ideologues everywhere…as you wrote last week,
Zapatero himself blamed “the neo-conservative model based on capitalism without borders nor limits nor ethics.”
Koblog, globalism is a the baby of the Wall street gangs that you failed to control in the happy years. Too late ! Now you’l have to drink it ut to the last drop
“She has a lot of money”.
yeah she made good relations with the mecreants when she had the opportunity, but in deregulating the labor rules in UK she allowed cheap labor forces to immigrate, and thus impoverished Brit workers and the middle class. Now we see the Results: Londonistan, and it ain’t finished !
Spain is taking over the EU Presidency ?
(psssttt, wanna see a great tirade against the current guy ?)
British MEP Launches Epic Insult Tirade Against EU President
I wish the US Congress had some of this type of candoUr going for it.
KOblog, it’s Because France is the first choice for foreign tourism travels in the world, thus our very busy and stressing air traffic
now, I agree these guis benefit of their exceptionnal situation. They may-be exagerating, but I prefer the good air traffic controllers well paid, than hiring not well trained persons
As much I could agree to a certain level with Nigel Farage, as much I’m questionning his real intentions, seems that he made this theatrical coup for gaining some votes for his own sake
http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2010/02/rudeness_eu_politics
Marie Claude, you realize that bailing out the banks and wall street (heavily regulated) is around the same neighborhood of defending European workers’ rights to extravagant pay and entitlments.
Except that you bailed out the very persons that robbed your businesses, where are Sorow, Maddow…
All the countries that insisted on spending way above their income are now poor; but the fact hasn’t sunk in yet. All the nasty things that happen to previously rich people who lose their wealth will happen to these countries. It will be ugly to see because a total belief in some great bank account in the sky is the essence of many people’s psyche. When that belief is broken, they will break too.
But the US and Canada are subject to the same reality. When you think about it, how can California, Illinois, Ohio, New York, New Jersey etc avoid the same pain? Yes, these “yooripeen” goofy places have set themselves up for a system crash; but the US will be in the same predicament as “yoorup”. There are millions of unionized public sector workers in the US who believe in celestial bank accounts. These people will cause trouble as the US system falls apart. In Canada we have some dangers to watch for, but we went through the really dangerous stuff 20-30 years ago and sort of fixed things up.
Government spending in the US has to be made equal to or less than revenues and the entitlements must be defined and reduced, or properly funded.
Why not start by asking “what government institutions are mandatory?” A US president and a vice president are needed. Then the constitution requires some people to be in Congress and in the Senate. Isn’t the rest of government discretionary? For example, why have a department of international trade? Why is the govt in the mail business?
Some interesting times are coming. Time to enlarge the vegetable patch folks.
Last in line for the Titanic all-you-can-eat, please shut out the light.
Good-night, America?
8. They won’t; they’ll convert instead. So shall the once great bastion of Christiandom usher in the empire of the Antichrist.
22. A more familiar term for that tax is FICA- Social Security and Medicare.
39. Marie Claude – it’s not that they’re well-paid, it’s that with 30 weeks vacation, they are barely working. There are countless other stressful jobs in this world that provide far less in the way of vacation benefits.
You don’t have to join in the chorus justifying their slacking; you are allowed to question it, change your mind, etc.
Marie Claude,
The big difference between us in Israel and you in Europe is that the women here have baby after baby after baby. We do not need to import laborers. They come here for the opportunity, and greedy fools employ them, thinking to save money.
So, in Israel, there is a large young population (in addition to the cheap imported laborers) who will be able to support the pensions the oldsters will collect. Do you comprehend the difference, madame?
Westerncanadian is absolutely correct. The important factor is reality. It cannot be legislated into or out of existence. That is why an economic policy which includes massive government spending and a privileged overpaid bureaucratic elite is unsustainable. It will collapse of its own weight, and it will bring everyone down with it. That is what is so ironic about all this: the very people who are engaging in overreach in order to dominate every aspect of American economic life are killing the goose that laid the golden egg.
Ironic. Much of the inspiration of the European Union was to be a political/economic counter-force to the sloe remaining superpower. the United States. It’s beginning to appear that the EU is coming apart at the seems. Will its constituent countries revert to form and become openly hostile to one another again as in WWI and WWII?
Will Europe seek out USA intervention to remain intact. Whole different outcome this time around. I’m deeply sorry for Europe as it was the birth place of Western Civilization and our country incorporated so much of what was so good about Europe. Sadly, the Europeans gave up on themselves and there isn’t much of anything to be done about it now.
…the very people who are engaging in overreach in order to dominate every aspect of American economic life are killing the goose that laid the golden egg.
Can’t argue with that observation.
Unfortunately.
@Paules
Well said, could not agree more. Europes two biggest problems is the entitlement mentality and mass muslim immigration. America has neither so you have far better chances of a turnaround if there is a conservative victory in elections 2010 and 1012. Over here, i dont see that happening, we have maybe 20% conservatives.
@ Fantom
Its a cultural question, we could see that after the iron curtain fell that the east germans after 40 years of communism expect the state to take care of everything and show a remarkable lack of business initiative.
Genetic? Made me smile. I would be surprised if those from my family tree who migrated to US in the 1800s are somehow genetically different
Fred K “that with 30 weeks vacation” these are non official, it’s an arrangement between the staff.
they are complaining because they are going to loose ther “servant” statut, as their service will go under EU rules, associated with a few european countries. (uh and you’re complaining of EU !)
I’m not supporting their individual recriminations for confort, though I’m not questionning their salaries, as half of it is paid by aerian companies
The advantage America has is that there are 50 states – and no matter which fools run which simple math says that not all can be equally sc*wed at all times. People with ‘get up and go’ do just that – so the slightly-less-crappy states and cities retain a pool of sanity from which can – perhaps – emerge reform. One-euro-Europe, OTOH, is pretty much dedicated to uniform disaster. After they took down the Irish resistance, where did a sane business have left to go?
Ruvy,
you may make more children than the Europeans, (we aren’t bad too, 2,2), but you still have a immigrated labor force that represents 10% of the total labor force, of course these aren’t the prestigious jobs, construction, agriculture, service.
According to a few sources, they are paid with lower wages than if they were occupied by nationals.
Apparently,since the Oslo accord, Globalisation became your motto too, and the former palestinians workers were expelled, replaced by Chinese, Thai, Philipine, Romanians, Africans…
Oh, I forgot, you have a significant number of illegals too, that some of your leaders like to use ie Ehud Barak who had a philippane maid
It is a sad commentary when we see what happens to a socialist nation in which unions and government workers dominant the environment and we still have people in this nation wanting to take us in that direction.
Stupid is the word for it. But here we are and here we go.
Want to know why Obama and his Marxist pals do what they do? Easy, just look at Europe. These people have been raised fully dependent on Big Government to provide for them and to think for them. They are so accustomed to it they will actually fight to keep the freebies flowing even at the expense of the rest of society. This dependency is the very thing Obama is trying to create by working to destroy the free-market system. As the economy collapses, more people turn to Big Government for help which fosters dependency which justifies more spending which gives Big Government more control which helps bring about a Socialist State. They must be stopped.
Archer 52:”It is a sad commentary when we see what happens to a socialist nation in which unions and government workers dominant the environment and we still have people in this nation wanting to take us in that direction.
Stupid is the word for it.”
You are right, it is stupid, but more than anything else, it won’t work. Already government jobs at state and local levels are being eliminated, libraries are closing and schools are laying off teachers, and it will only get worse. Those “secure” government jobs will disappear as the tax base diminishes, no matter how angry and threatening the reaction. What happens then? What system will evolve to replace it? Will we go back to fiscal conservatism, or is something else waiting in the wings?
Someone please tell me that there is another undiscovered continent out there where the self-sufficient can go this time.
Westerwelle has to win an election in the largest state of Germany in a few months. He promised his voters tax reductions though we had to bail out everybody and everything. The bad deed that hit me hardest was the present our bankers did give Lehman the day it went bankrupt: Euro 300 Millions for nothing. Greece should not worry: Our government will bail them out. Nothing but rhetoric at present. However, the Greek people should know that we do not have their gold and we even believe that our own gold is not in Germany. O.K. No, Europe and we Europeans will be fine again in some months when we concentrate on our strengths and and do not try to ape the US. Anyway,there is a saying that those declared dead live longer.
59:Canard said: “Someone please tell me that there is another undiscovered continent out there where the self-sufficient can go this time.”
You’re on that continent. Very soon self-sufficiency will be a requirement for survival. It’s going to be a bitter and painful lesson, but welfare state economics leads to economic collapse and social dysfunction. There is a sober tone in all the comments on this thread, from this continent and Europe, that indicate an emerging social maturity.
As an Englishman (please don’t call me a European)I am interested in the view of this country by Americans.I would love to have answers to the following questions which I ask in a spirit of friendship.
1.Do you see Britain as just another part of Europe and has this view changed over recent years?
2.Is Britain a more decadent society than the U.S.A.?
3.Is it possible to resist Islam without a strong christian majority asserting their position. ie is an athiest society inherently weak in the face of conviction theists?
4.Are people who propose the idea of an “anglosphere” deluded fools or are there still strong ties between the english speaking nations?
Look forward to any answers!
Marie Claude has mentioned a 10% employment rate, this is false, in Europe you do not just get taxes, you also get unnecessary administration costs.
I was self employed and I employed an accountant, however the French government thinks about many way to to get more people employed, so what they do to people like me is inform me that unless I pay for some association to verify that my taxes have been done correctly I will be charged an additional tax of 50% on my profit if I do not employ an association to do this. €280 out of my pocket for nothing. Recently they imposed this on the LMNP scheme which was an investment in a hotel room which many of us did to escape the Ponzi pension scheme, so another €280 out of my pocket.
So when you think about that 10% unemployment rate just assume a vast amount of people employed in administration functions just adding costs for no reason at all apart from creating a job, that is Europe.
I decided I have had enough, demand is down, social charges are back loaded so you pay on past results, so I just closed my company down.
Europe is mad and you Americans are joining us in this madness.
“The uncoordinated strikes and protests, which have taken place in at least a dozen European countries and have threatened to paralyze much of the continent, may be a harbinger of more unrest to come.”
The unrest of the socialized left HAS already begun.
64.CJ “The unrest of the socialized left HAS already begun.”
I suspect the unrest is preliminary to a great disillusionment. The universities are going broke, like so much of the public sector. There is going to be hell to pay, but strikes and protests can’t alter reality. This isn’t the 60′s.
Reality asserts itself,biting the corrupt entrails of the 6o’s degeneration,drugged on utopian welfarism,bad architecture,and superstatism. as Europe begins to implode and die,the ghost of Charles Darwin can be seen smiling!
Zaza: The difference between Americans and Europeans.
The Europeans are taking to the streets to keep the gravy train of government spending going.
Americans are protesting AGAINST government spending. We despise big government.
Zaza: The difference between Europeans and Americans.
The Europeans are protesting in the streets in favor of more government spending. They can’t get off the government gravy train.
Americans are protesting in the street AGAINST government spending. We don’t want it.
#62 portstanley My personal Canadian answers to your questions are:
1) yes and yes
2) yes
3) yes – a gut belief in freedom and individual liberty is necessary for resisting Islam’s bullying of non-believers. But it’s not sufficient because bullies aren’t influenced by what you believe; they are influenced by what you do.
4) the anglosphere already exists because of shared history and attitudes, but Britain may be slipping away from the other members – US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. It’s getting to the point that we are sorry that you are British but it’s not our fault – there is stuff you have to deal with by yourself.
If a system is unsustainable, it will collapse. The whole country can sign onto it, it will still collapse. General Motors (now Government Motors) used to be called Generous Motors, because the benefits were unbelievable. A job there meant security for life, well past retirement. A lot of GM retirees are now facing poverty. It wasn’t supposed to happen that way. I’m sure rioting Greek government employees also thought it wasn’t supposed to happen that way. Same principle.
PortStanley;
1.Do you see Britain as just another part of Europe and has this view changed over recent years?
I see the UK as belonging to Europe and have always seen it as such. I find that the Brits generally support a larger role for government than Americans do. However, this role appears to be less than that of the rest of Europe generally.
2.Is Britain a more decadent society than the U.S.A.?
Not sure what you mean by decadent, although Britain is more socially liberal than American society.
3.Is it possible to resist Islam without a strong christian majority asserting their position. ie is an athiest society inherently weak in the face of conviction theists?
I do not perceive an atheist society to be weaker in this regard, IF the atheist conviction matches the intensity of the theist conviction.
However, I will point out that, statistically, the less religious and the irreligious tend to have fewer or no children (http://www.physorg.com/news5877.html). This is a weakness that has obvious demographic repercussions.
4.Are people who propose the idea of an “anglosphere” deluded fools or are there still strong ties between the english speaking nations?
There are very strong cultural ties between the UK and US and US and Canada. I cannot speak to NZ and Australia (too far away, I suppose). My European relatives will occasionally make dismissive remarks about anglo-american ways of doing things. The anglo-sphere certainly shares similar outlooks and this will keep ties strong many decades to come, but I don’t expect any sort of anglo-sphere alliance.
It is unclear to me that the people in the good ol’ USA hate government spending. Some people in the U.S. hate profligate spending, but I doubt that it is a majority. When we talk about reducing spending on SS or medicare, the majority seem to want a hands off approach. Bush tried to get the majority to make modest changes to SS and the people revolted. Europe may be heading to hell in a handcart, but we are in the handcart right behind them. Until the American voters reject the idea of a government entitlement of any sort, we are taking the same road as Europe, just a little slower.
65. Prologue
“I suspect the unrest is preliminary to a great disillusionment. … strikes and protests can’t alter reality. ”
You are absolutely correct in the coming “great disillusionment” (GD).
I suspect that,
1. after hearing (clips on Glenn Beck’s show) Obama lament the limited outcome of the civil rights movement (strikes and protests) with respect to the more marxist ends they desired
2. #20 being widely available at places like the Berkeley, UCLA and Columbia
3. The wide encouragement and use of Alinksy
that they may be taking us down the road of the French Revolution when the GD anger and hunger sets in. Of course, I could be crazy – but it’s foolish not to at least consider what they may be planning…
David H
the problem is that in this “organised” globalisation it has become difficult (and or impossible) for small businesses, that are only allowed to pay charges, and not to get subsidies like big businesses. It ain’t typical to France (and in UK I suppose too, even in America too, cuz this was also the motive why Joe Stack threw his plane into the taxes building)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/documents/JoeStackmanifestoonweb.pdf
Though I know clever English that can afford advices from businesses lawers, and they go through the whole business of administrative circonvlution in managing to pay no taxes or so little.
I had once a Brit custommer that has a business in the Baleares Islands, that told me that we are idiot if we can’t benefit of what the whole european administrative system can offer you, though you need to follow carrefully the new laws, and befriend some local politician responsable that can give you tips.
I guess you have a bad “comptable” , I also have a small business, and didn’t have these problems, no, mine is expert comptable, and my hubby use to manage a big society, so he knows where to get informations on the net too.
Marie Claude it is nothing to do with globilisation, it is nothing to do with your accountant its just contempt for the little people by the government, you should see how they worded this LMNP thing, it was worded as if this association was a benefit, but it goes to the core of what is wrong with the people in power, the way they slice away at you knowing that you just have to take it, so I stuck my middle finger up and closed my company down.
And your answer about playing the game also reeks…
David h if you closed down your Cie, it’s not because it had a sense for your life, but because it didn’t bring you the money you wished (like for many of your compatriots that came in France for making money). Now don’t put that on the administration cuz you know it was there before you started your business. We all know here it is difficult, but it is possible , just that you have to compose with the middle. It ain’t anglo-saxon’s, which plus is, in your eyes, a Thatcher’s way of making businesses, though it works , and I must say rather not as bad as in UK as far as I can read on economists’blogs ! our global debt (public +private) is even lower than the german’s
If you were worded, I bet you weren’t in rest too. If you want that people, that are obviously mendated by administration request, to explain you how you can get along with the system, you better not insult t’em.
Now If you don’t like it over, nothing prevent you from crossing back the Channel. Good luck and bon vent !
These countries differ from us only in terms of how far the march toward entitlement/socialism has progressed. We can watch them to see our future, if we continue our current course–as we likely will.
Thanks to Westerncanadian and The Tao for their answers. I am beginning to think it maybe too late for Britain to go in the direction I would like. It seems there are just not enough people in this country who share my outlook and I can’t hold out much hope of persuading them. I feel like I have more in common with tea party activists than tories or most of my countrymen.
PTbull
SEC. 1706. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN TECHNICAL PERSONNEL.
(a) IN GENERAL – Section 530 of the Revenue Act of 1978 is amended by
adding at the end thereof the following new subsection:
(d) EXCEPTION. – This section shall not apply in the case of an individual
who pursuant to an arrangement between the taxpayer and another person,
provides services for such other person as an engineer, designer, drafter,
computer programmer, systems analyst, or other similarly skilled worker
engaged in a similar line of work.
(b) EFFECTIVE DATE. – The amendment made by this section shall apply
to remuneration paid and services rendered after December 31, 1986
exactly the same rules, big businesses are the chosen ones in your country too
#73 CJ: They can take us down all kinds of paths (maybe), but they can’t make them work. Welfare state economics doesn’t lead to anything but a dysfunctional bureaucratic social order. In the end, it will come to a grinding halt. There’s a reason the Soviet Union is gone, China and India shifted gears, and (according to the book “Start up Nation”), Israel transitioned from a plodding failing socialist economy to a booming entrepreneurial free market economy. Who knows, even Europe may dump the heavy-handed bureaucratic state. They might not have any choice.
62. portstanley:
As an Englishman (please don’t call me a European)I am interested in the view of this country by Americans.I would love to have answers to the following questions which I ask in a spirit of friendship.
1.Do you see Britain as just another part of Europe and has this view changed over recent years?
NO. BRITAIN HAS BEEN AND IS STILL A WORLD LEADER. BUT THE FUTURE IS FAST APPROACHING. ARE YOU PREPARED TO LEAD?
2.Is Britain a more decadent society than the U.S.A.?
UNFORTUNATELY, FROM WHAT I SEE IN THE TABS, YES.
3.Is it possible to resist Islam without a strong christian majority asserting their position. ie is an athiest society inherently weak in the face of conviction theists?
YES. ATHEISTS HAVE NOTHING STRONG ENOUGH IN THEIR BELIEF SYSTHEM THAT IS WORTH DYING FOR, THEREFORE THEY’RE MORE WILLING TO LIVE IN SUBJUGATION TO TAXES AND CULTURAL RESTRICTIONS
4.Are people who propose the idea of an “anglosphere” deluded fools or are there still strong ties between the english speaking nations?
YES!! WE’RE ROOTING FOR YOU. PLEASE SHOW US YOU CAN GRAB THE REINS OF YOUR OUT OF CONTROL GOV’T SPENDING AND YOUR CRIPPLING IMMIGRATION PROBLEM.
So here we go again, let me explain it so Marie Claude can get it, your talking absolute rubbish as you do not have a faintest idea of what profit I made. And as for insulting these people, they deserve it, it is cynical behaviour like this that gets you to the point where you either do it on the black or give up. When I came to live in France I was amazed at the amount of people who did things on the side, it was stunning. The funny thing was that of those people the worst are dedicated socialists who when I asked him why he did this when taxes were paid to support the system he just sneered at me that I was jealous because I could not do it…
So let me be clear, I was self employed, I think it was in 2008 that the government suddenly decided that all us self employed people were crooks, so they would load the amount of taxable income by 50% unless we joined an association costing €280 a year. This Association is sent a copy of my accounts and obviously shuffles a few papers whatever, but I am stuck with €280 of additional cost, what this means is that an Association which is a tax free company doing sort of work in the community can employ more people to shuffle paper funded by many like me.
They obviously found that this was a good little wheeze, so their next target was people who see the pension system for what it is a Ponzi scheme and who were enticed into investing in a unit in say a hotel room as part of a block, negotiating the crooked people who fester around that is difficult enough, but the government decided that too many people had invested here, so they restricted it last year to the income raised by LMNP, as people were in deficit as they were doing this for the future then you can not apply the deficit to reduce your tax as originally detailed, so suddenly a large block of middle class people suddenly find that they lose more money out of their pocket. Now for the 2010 tax year in 2011 the government was obviously so impressed with the number of paper pushers employed with this little wheeze on the self employed that they applied it to the properties that people have under the LMNP scheme. So they came up with a 25% loading unless you paid €280 to an association to verify the accounting that the accounts who look after this do.
Its a salami slice, keep cutting away at the middle income earners, keep taking from those attmpting to cover themselves. What is amusing on this is that with all these slices and additional costs that they keep loading and the change to the structure so that you can only apply a deficit in the LMNP to the income from LMNP you have a tax benefit which you can apply for 10 years max which you have nothing to apply it to, and you have to pay someone to verify the accounts to be able not to claim back that tax or apply the deficit.
This is typically European, come on my American friends, can you really see this sort of thing ending in say France for example.
I give you another one, the rental market, in France they decided to apply a maximum increase per year based on the cost of building inflation, however Sarkozy changed it as building inflation was higher than normal inflation. Before then it had trailed inflation, now over time a long term tenent was paying a low rent so old aged tenents was turfed out of their rental property so people could increase their income, so the government decided to do something about it, so if you had a tenent above a certain age, you had to find that tenent a property nearby of the same level for the same price and get her agreement to move into it. This was applied in the early 90′s I think.
What happened next is that no one who rents out houses will rent it out to an aged person because of this. This again is so typical of Europe, now people don’t rent houses to old people, I wonder why… I own 6 properties by the way, so I expect this little wheeze to be applied to all of them in some way, how much more can they squeeze out of us… In terms of the LMNP they will find people working out that 25% of 0 is still 0 so they will not pay for this association, they are idiots…
I will answer this as a Brit:
1.Do you see Britain as just another part of Europe and has this view changed over recent years?
No and yes, before hand I was unaware of the basic difference in being free before the state and having the state give you your freedoms.
2.Is Britain a more decadent society than the U.S.A.?
It is a difficult one that, both have moral people and pockets of decadence and immorality, both similar I think, though thee moral part of the US population is more religious.
3.Is it possible to resist Islam without a strong christian majority asserting their position. ie is an athiest society inherently weak in the face of conviction theists?
Christianity seems to be pushing an accomodation of Islam within some sort of multi-faith dialogue, taking that into account but not ignoring the Martys of Coroboda as an example I think if people realised that they were going to lose their individual freedoms both would stand up.
4.Are people who propose the idea of an “anglosphere” deluded fools or are there still strong ties between the english speaking nations?
I think it comes down to the concept of a Free man before the state.
Living in France I am now very aware of the concept of La France, and that the state is all powerful, it can be quite worrying what this could entail for personal liberty if the state sees you and what you think as a threat to it and that is the difference.
62–As an Englishman (please don’t call me a European)I am interested in the view of this country by Americans.I would love to have answers to the following questions which I ask in a spirit of friendship.
1.Do you see Britain as just another part of Europe and has this view changed over recent years?[Are you kidding? No we don't: we always distinguish between the weak and unreliable french and the reliable and strong British: we don't hate the french, but we don't trust or respect them as we do you. After all, who left NATO, refused us overflight rights in the 80's to bomb Quadaffi? etc. We have a long memory as you do. "european" here means french for the most part, maybe the EU Belgium types, Swiss, but not britain. The term "eurotrash" means a wider circle of same but again does not include Britain]
2.Is Britain a more decadent society than the U.S.A.? [I don't think so: I know some here disagree, but I think you are doing with your muslim population what we are also doing but more out of sight--trying to assimilate a rapidly growing population. We may have an edge in employees that are not used to unions. We have no edge on illegal immigration but have been way luckier in that mexicans assimilate rapidly and have been good productive people that don't want to blow things up. They are great people as are canadians.]
3.Is it possible to resist Islam without a strong christian majority asserting their position. ie is an athiest society inherently weak in the face of conviction theists? [I guess we're all going to find out. ]
4.Are people who propose the idea of an “anglosphere” deluded fools or are there still strong ties between the english speaking nations? [There are as far as I am concerned, and I do not consider myself to be a deluded fool: most people I know who work hard are somewhat contemptuous of the french, and people that know somehting about the last few hundred years cannot fail to be impressed with the majesty of your history. Landing in heathrow after a euro trip is not just relief at english spoken again–its being back among shared assumptions and values. I believe most people here would be very concerned if somehtig the US did was perceived there as anti-Brit. Sorry about the Falklands thing-this administration does not seem to value the UK as much as I assure you the bulk of us do. I was horrified at the ipod for the Queen too.
Look forward to any answers!
David H, I don’t know what you want to demonstrate, and what you’re talking about,
I own a hostel,and I have a few studios too
these problems never occur to me may-be my comptable is clever, that’s why I pay him, We were never asked to pay such silly charges. Also my son owns a flat in Paris XVe and he intends to sell his flat soon, he’ll have no problem to find a buyerm to find a buyer
Again, if you do not like it Over, take your ticket back where you belong
Brits have always complained of EU rules, and of course of France, the good ol enemy that is on their way, we don’t want your deregulations of the marckets, we don’t want of your speculators that ruin the enterprises, that bring poverty with delocalisations
Fairness of the Brits ? we don’t know what that mean in the real life, except may-be on sport events !
the weak and unreliable french and the reliable and strong British: we don’t hate the french, but we don’t trust or respect them as we do you.
Why I’m laughfing ?
QUI SE RESSEMBLE S’ASSEMBLE !
Of course America is an Avatar of the Brits, a Giant with clay foots, that buit his legend of power with virtual paper money. It tooks some times, but this construction is vanishing with the apparition of third world emerging powers
De Gaulle had good reasons to know all about anglo-saxon perfidness, he left NATO bureaucracy (not the ground, tell me when french soldiers didn’t participate to the operations) because all the decision positions were attribuated to Anglo-saxons generals and staff !
Now about not letting your planes crossed our sky to bomb Lybia, we had good reasons for that, the supposed Khadafi intentions to make terorists attemps were a hoax, invented by Mossad, Spain and France anti-terrorists services decipherated the irreality of the supposed proofs, and you, Americans, speeded into the piege, OK, you were happy to show to the world how strong to retaliate to the Muslims that would annihilate Israel, but that didn’t prevent you to get hitted by Muslims, that were more real than Khadafi mouthy anathemas
I know who work hard are somewhat contemptuous of the french, and people that know somehting about the last few hundred years cannot fail to be impressed with the majesty of your history.
Oh, yeah, I’m glad we don’t polish your shoes, and if you’d really known the true history behind the curtains of glory forged by the Anglo-saxons, themselves, you would be more humble, but I don’t expect that you’ll make this effort, So, I just leave you to gargle of your “superiority” on your cards castle… hmm for how long now !
thanks David H and Blackwell,
that has cheered me up a bit. Regarding Marie claude I suppose it is the difference between liking and respecting. I like France and the French but I also enjoy the friction between us as nations. At least we don’t tend to kill each other these days! I suspect the French don’t want to be liked by us either,their intellectuals love to despise our crude ways as we are rather amused by their ability to turn everything into a reason to look down their noses at us.
As far as the Islamist issue is concerned in Britain it is an inner city issue, where I live in the country I rarely see any one who isn’t white. The muslims I meet are all westernised and mostly delightful people. However the tensions in the inner cities and estates are rising and could reach the situation in France in the near future. The challenge of how to integrate these people without alienating the white working class is one politicians are unwilling to face up to. I suspect the “white flight” will continue,both to the countryside and to the U.S (if we are admitted)and other english speaking nations.
port stanly
“their intellectuals love to despise our crude ways as we are rather amused by their ability to turn everything into a reason to look down their noses at us.”
Name an intellectual or a paper that talk of UK, say, none (or just when Sarko meets the Queen)
Name a Brit paper, or an Anglosaxon opinionist that have an everyday contempted opinion on the French, most of all, alternatively
port Stanley, good name that…
I like France and the French, though I detest the French political class with a passion… The French elite have a fixation with Britain and America, which is not shared the other way around, they always want to screw the English or fight against the Anglo-Saxon world, its sad really and has created so many lethal policy mistake not least being De Gaulles concept of Eurabia which is now coming to pass. I do not find the normal French that way, many are decent hard working people and while I lived in Paris I was seriously impressed with the French people in La Defence working long hours.
I do not intend to stay, so Marie Claude will be happy that I will not corrupt La France with my Anglo-Saxon blood… Once my American friends get rid of the OBamanation I hope I can get a chance to move there.
Marie Claude, interesting that you are not aware of this, ooops comes to mind.
David
France, EURABIA ? check:
http://tinyurl.com/yzxkwhb
It looks like UK fits more the EURABIA label, and that you only were aware of superficialities
French elites aren’t more anti “anglo-saxon” than the Anglo-saxon world is anti-french ! (just read the many opinion papers across the Channel, and or across the pond)
So you’re leaving, then, you didn’t really wanted to become one of us, you never made the effort to adapt