European Muslims Debate: Should Gays Be Executed?
One of the pillars of the future totalitarian state in 1984 is the practice of doublethink, which Orwell defined as “the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them. … To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies — all this is indispensably necessary.”
As it happens, this is a precise description of exactly what’s been going on in many parts of Europe in recent years, as multicultural ideology has been confronted by realities about Islam that, in a doublethink-free world, would send that ideology crashing to the ground in flames.
For a case in point, I will refer the reader to an episode I’ve mentioned previously in this space — an Oslo debate last November at which the deputy chairman of Norway’s Islamic Council, Asghar Ali, refused to reject the death penalty for gays. When Senaid Kobilica, the head of the Islamic Council (which represents 60,000 Muslims), was asked where he stood on the question, he replied that he couldn’t give a definitive answer until he got a ruling from the European Fatwa Council. This week it was reported that he’s still waiting.
But not to worry! Kobilica added that he’s “100 percent certain that the fatwa council will not come out in favor of something which conflicts with European law.” Meaning that while the death penalty for homosexuals is, indeed, an orthodox Islamic position — one about which the Fatwa Council’s head, Yusuf al-Qaradawi, has himself written sympathetically — Western Muslim leaders, in accordance with the Koran (and with good strategy), prefer in such controversial cases not to challenge infidel law. (There will, after all, be time enough to execute gays in the coming decades, as the Muslim population attains critical balance in one country after another — first, most likely, in France and Sweden and the Netherlands, and in Norway some time after that.)
What’s most chilling about all this, however, is not the positions of these Muslim leaders but the reactions of the Norwegian establishment. Or, one should say, the lack of reaction.
Consider this. After last November’s debate, it emerged that Asghar Ali not only was deputy chairman of the Islamic Council but was also on the board of the Oslo Arbeidersamfunn, the largest and most influential association within Norway’s ruling Labor Party. Asked about Ali’s views, the head of the Oslo Arbeidersamfunn, Anne Cathrine Berger, lamented that some people “can’t see the difference between a board member’s views and the organization’s views.” Despite scattered calls for his dismissal, Ali remained on the board. (When a new board election was held in February, Ali chose not to run again.)
That’s not all: Ali is, in addition, secretary of the 37,000-member Electricians’ and IT Workers’ Union. After the November debate, the union’s website posted a “clarification” by Ali saying that “as a Norwegian Muslim” he in fact rejected the death penalty for gays. The words “as a Norwegian Muslim” amount to a disingenuous dodge — they’re the rhetorical equivalent of keeping your fingers crossed behind your back. To state that one rejects the death penalty for gays “as a Norwegian Muslim” isn’t the same as saying that one rejects it, period. Like what Kobilica said about European law, it’s simply an Islamist’s way of affirming that he accepts infidel law as it now stands; such a statement reveals absolutely nothing about his real position on the question, or about whether he is, in fact, dedicated to the goal of ultimately changing this and the rest of Norwegian law to conform with sharia. At this point in the ongoing Islamization of Europe, the slipperiness of Ali’s “clarification” should be manifest to any infidel who’s made an effort to understand how Muslims think about these matters. Yet the head of the Electricians’ and IT Workers’ Union , Hans Olav Felix, pronounced himself satisfied with Ali’s ”clarification,” and Ali remains in the #2 spot at the union.
As for the Norwegian government, there has been no serious effort, as far as I know, to rescind from the Islamic Council its half million kroner a year in state support.
They’ve realized that the work of jihad — of restoring the caliphate, of making Europe a part of the umma[...]
Minor quibble: While the term umma(h) indeed means the global Muslim community, it refers to the people who make up that community, not the territories on which they live. The territorial term Mr. Bawer is looking for is the Dar al-Islam.
Other than that, his article is spot-on, as usual.
Liberal European polititians are cowards that will attempt to negotiate the survival of C
Liberal European polititians are cowards that will attempt to negotiate the survival of Christians, Jews and gays, even as the Islamists have their heads on the chopping block. They will not succeed. These insane liberals are actually assisting in the defeat of western civilisation by Islamic barberism. They actually will assist those that would behead their children in order to be “progressive “. These liberal maniacs are truly insane and will collaborate with the most deadly enemy western civilisation has ever faced. Dark ages, here Europe comes.
Meanwhile, the Anglican Church is in a tizzy about gay marriage and gay bishops, instead of uniting against Islam, the most homophobic force on the planet.
Norway’s (and American Liberals) always posture themselves as tolerant progressives but when given a chance to reveal their true preferences their intolerance and in-the-closet bigotry emerges. Our so-called progressives care not a wit for homosexuals. The gay person’s only role in the progressive scheme of things is to destroy the existing social order and then be disposed of.
One thing I would like to see is an acknowledgment by Mr. Bawer that American traditional Christians do not as rule wish to see homosexuals strung up or some other vial punishment inflicted upon them. I would like to see him acknowledge the difference between a refusal to validate a lifestyle and this kind of hatred.
It is interesting that the Islamic Council is known as “moderate”. I have yet to hear anyone in the media actually define that term. I have suggested previously that radical Muslims want to kill infidels personally, while moderate Muslims are want their governments to kill infidels.
I must have missed the time “Islam” outlawed homosexuality? In most Arab countries, as well as other countries like Afghanistan, male-male sexual relations were even recently celebrated (and Saudi Arabia remains the gay capital of the Middle East). Isn’t this more a consequence of Europe’s twisted minority relations than anything inimical to Islam itself?
Josh:
Homosexual behavior in Muslims countries may happen and even receive a wink and a nod but don’t make the mistake that when the wink and the nod are withheld that there aren’t dire consequences.
In response to the Muslim position on the execution of homosexuals, the American gay community announced they will be organizing an all-out protest of an Ohio Baptist couple who are refusing to allow a gay leather/fetish group to rent out their entire hotel for the annual “Toilet Pig” convention.
The word “quisling” entered the European lexicon during World War II, coined from the name of a Norwegian traitor who collaborated with the Nazis. It would seem that Norway is now home to many quislings, enough to support an entire political party. History repeats because humanity is slow to learn her lessons. Judging by the past Europe will not wake until there’s blood in the streets. Again.
I recently returned from a month long visit with relatives and friends in Norway followed by two months wander divided between Denmark, Netherlands and Switzerland. In those three months plus other recent sojourns in Europe I have concluded Europeans by allowing in millions of illiterate or nearly illiterate primitive and far more fecund Middle Eastern churls have sealed their doom.
Much of Europe is performing a death dance and when the blood in the street flows we uncultured yankee imperialist will ourselves due to a barely above replacement birth rate American families will not be willing to send our families’ only sons to die rescuing Europeans from folly.
Mark Steyn, a Canadian writer and journalist currently on trial for hate crimes by by his countries pc totalitarians for sounding the firebell in the night on Europe’s islamization and islamofascist not so stealthy conquest by muslim fundamentalists is spot on in predicting that if islamofascism is stopped it will be America Alone, the title of his more than prescient most recent book.
In Norway I found that my relatives were either unaware of the the freedom annihilating fury rising up around them or to frightened to confront the gangs of young knife weilding muslim thugs stalking the cities and even country towns to take a stand in self-defense.
Cowardice is a European tradition. Why would Norway’s history of collaboration and surrender reverse itself to defend its few gay citizens
when it winks at the organization of surviving Norwegian traitors who fought the Allies in Hitler’s military in France holding regular reunions and gatherings.
Niadros Cathedral in 30 years will be converted into a mosque and Norways multi-cultural and pc paralyzed political will help the muslims to murder the 1,000 year old Christian landmark’s last presiding Lutheran pastor. The Spainard who wrote the short essay Europe died at Auschwitz will be proven correct. Most Europe is already the Ummah. Death dancing ethnic Europeans are too old, enfeebled or drunk on leftist kool-aid to recognize reality.
When dealing with homosexuality, those who follow that orientation are cheating themselves.
How else can you explain their following of an abysmal way to communicate the reality that men and women are different. When this is placed in the larger context of their being diversity on terra firma – they are cheating themselves of time that could have been spent more productively in communicating the reality that men and women are different.
Paul From Hamburg — an alternate definition –
A moderate Muslim is simply a radical Muslim awaiting Islam Uber Alles.
ALL Muslims want Islam to dominate everything, everywhere. That’s ALL of them.
Any honest Muslim cannot deny this — or he/she simply isn’t a real Muslim, or he/she grossly misunderstands his/her religion. And on that hideous day when Islam comes to dominate, as it does in every conquered Islamic sewer on earth — we can all say goodbye to any pretense of “moderation” from those former “moderates”, and hello to the hideous fascism of their Sharia mass terror.
Today Tyson Foods in Tennessee announced that it will now give all employees the Eid holiday off in lieu of Labor Day. That’s correct — a 100% American corporation, in connivance with US LABOR, has negotiated a Sharia holiday for all Muslims and non-Muslims, and abandoned the traditional Labor Day holiday, on which those workers will now be working. Another triumph for the steady creep of Sharia implementation, and the symbolic dominance of Supremacist Islam over the filthy infidels. Moderate Muslims everywhere are licking their fangs.
Here’s an excerpt from the article:
Tyson drops Labor Day holiday for Eid al-Fitr
A recent press release from the Retail, Wholesale and Department Store Union (RWDSU) stated that a new contract at the Shelbyville facility “implements a new holiday to accommodate the … Muslim workers at the plant.”
The RWDSU stated that “the five-year contract creates an additional paid holiday, Iidal Fitil, a Muslim holiday that occurs toward the end of Ramadan.”
Eid al-Fitr falls on Oct. 1 this year.
Tyson’s Director of Media Relations, Gary Mickelson, stated that while the new contract does not provide an additional holiday, as the union claimed, “the new contract includes eight paid holidays, which is the same number provided in the old contract.”
“However, the union leadership did request and receive Eid al-Fitr (which is apparently spelled various ways including Id al-Fitr and Eid ul-Fitr) as a paid holiday in place of Labor Day,” Mickelson confirmed in an e-mail to the T-G.
link from the Times Gazette: http://www.t-g.com/story/1449487.html
“Meanwhile, the Anglican Church is in a tizzy about gay marriage and gay bishops, instead of uniting against Islam, the most homophobic force on the planet.”
Quite true, but no the entire church (what oyu menat to say was the Anglican Communion) Sadly the piece of the church that is a in tizzy about gays is the piece tht is most directly threatened by Islam in Nigeria and othr parts of Africa.
This is by the way also the part of the church that asked for and got permission to deal with the issue of polygamy in their cultures in their own way, something they refuse to permit to Westerners. Apparently marital customs patterned on the mating habits of cattle are less of sin by their lights.
Been There, before you get too downcast about the Europe’s demise, you should remember that the Europeans can be very resolute, very ruthless, and quite thorough about getting rid of unwanted Semites. The cowardice you see in them is a pre-condition for that kinfd of cowardly action.
David W. Lincoln:
<<>>
Really? You mean to follow or pursue your natural born desires is not natural? I did not choose my sexual orientation, despite your disbelief…I chose to be a conservative because I believe in the founding fathers and the plan they had in mind….including the part about religious nuts not running our government.
Morton, I have the conviction to say and act, no labor day, no Tyson products.
Simple.
Norway, your goose is cooked. US if you don’t wake up, your Chicken ( Tyson ) will be cooked.
Read the Kite Runner, the book describes male on male rape in detail, however the wedding night man and woman was white washed completely.
Telling.
What determines a cultur’s strength is ultimately based on waht goes on in the bedroom — how many babies get produced as opposed to how many people die. It’s all demographics — wars are a violent way to reduce the number of people in a society, disease is another but abortion, childlessness by choice and infertility brought on by contracting STDs are just as effective in destroying societies. European secularism destroys the yearning to have pride in self, family or heritage. In time, if things don’t change, the Europeans will merely be replaced and all the “enlightened” laws they establish will be eradicated.
@Tim Turner
Some folks just can not admit to themselves the fact that homosexuality is not a choice.
That’s just it!
“Progressives” want all Americans to EVOLVE, yet these chums sticking to their 7th century old ideas are just fine by them.
Josh: Did you not see the video on the internet of the young gay men being hung in Iran? They are not Arab but they are muslim.
I forgot Iran doesn’t have gays.
Bruce Bawer is trying to rally people on the Left to the cause of resisting the spread of Islam. And because he is a gay man, he is trying to pry the gay community away from the clutches of that filthy, evil alliance of Marxism/Socialism with Islam. He points out correctly that Sharia Law is a vicious, violent, reprobate, and retrograde cult of domination (I read his book a couple of years ago) that should have no place in a modern and humane society. Our civilization is under assault by this evil alliance, and Europe is on the front line.
“Progressives” (re. socialists and revisionist Marxists – I used to be one, BTW) are showing their true colors nowadays. What they really are they show by who they ally themselves with: primitive, savage totalitarians. They haven’t changed at all since the days of Lenin and Stalin. In this civilizational war between Islam and Western civilization there is no neutral ground. I have seen it very plainly: the Left has chosen to oppose our countries and run political interference for the Ummah.
On the issue of gays… I am not a gay man, but I support the rights of gays, in society and in the churches. Progressives are liars in this respect: you CANNOT support and defend Muslims and Islam and the gay community within the Left.
Morton, et al – Tyson’s allowed the holiday because 700 of their 1200 employees are Muslim. As to whether Tysons was insane to hire that many Muslims and not expect some balloons to pop, that’s another question…
Tyson hired a lot of Somali Muslims because of a cozy deal Bill Clinton cut with the U.N.’s refugee resettlement program. These people were resettled all over the country in places near Tyson facilities.
So, this is some of the residue of the nineties and how a lot was under the radar back then.
Add willfully stupid to the characteristics of the useful idiots.
A NON-ISSUE
There are many reasons why Islam should be prevented – at all costs – from establishing a Sharia-based foothold in the West. But its alleged treatment of homosexuality as a criminal offense punishable by death is not one of them.
The idea that Islam is any different from any other religion (or culture) in its approach and treatment towards gays is absurd.
Yes, yes, I know that the Koran, the Sunna and so on contain phrases and texts that appear to condemn the practice of homosexuality. But so does the Bible.
At the same time, the Koran also has what can be taken to be a “compassionate” attitude in this regard. Sura IV, Verse 21, for example proclaims:
“And if two (men) of you commit it, then hurt them both; but if they turn again and amend, leave them alone, verily, God is easily turned, compassionate.”
I mean, you can’t get much more “liberal” than that, seems to me.
The fact is, most Muslims, like most Christians, have an aversion towards gays ranging from a “shrug-of the shoulders” attitude to outright panicky revulsion. To most straight people, gays are neither from Mars nor from Venus…..they’re from Krypton. Completely incomprehensible.
It’s as simple….and as complicated….as that.
When some sociopathic “religious” Sheikh in Europe goes on a rampage against gays, it’s no different to what you hear from religious fundamentalists in the good ol’ USA, some of whose pronouncements can make the hair on your backbone recoil in horror.
It’s important to note too that these Sheikhs in Europe wouldn’t dare come out in public in their countries of origin without suffering severe and possibly terminal consequences.
They most definitely do not speak for the vast majority of Muslims, anymore than that pathetic bimbo Anita Bryant speaks for the majority of Christians.
In fact, I’m in favor of the Sheikhs in Europe rampaging against gays or anything else. By doing this, they’re making it much more difficult for Islam to gain a serious foothold in the West, something that we must all seek to prevent at any cost whatsoever.
My point is: the subject of homosexuality vis a vis Islam is a non-issue. Turn your attention to more serious matters.
Muslims in Europe is the correct term. They are not European Muslims.
I still wonder why, if Norway is so unsafe for gay people, Bruce Bawer insists on staying there. As far as I know, he’s not Norwegian.
The original Trojan Horse was not just a wooden sculpture — it was secretly filled with a score or so of hidden enemies.
In comparison, Europe’s modern Trojan Horse is entirely transparent. And the number of Stealth Warriors standing in plain sight yet still being welcomed in are alot more than a few score.
Charles Martel must be spinning in his grave.
Actually, I think Mr. Ali, should be applauded for not coming out in favor of leniency for gays.
It shows he’s intellectually honest.
After all, according to the May 19, 1998 issue of the National Enquirer, Asghar was seen exiting the gay, Pink Boot, while visiting Chicago, Illinois with a group of Muslim Extremists.
Being reportedly gay himself, if the Ali dude ever publically states that gays should be murdered, it definitely will demonstate his evenhandness. No one will ever again call him a hypocrite, intellectual fraud or Good Humor man.
Separately, many who write ask me why so many Muslim extremists have sexual proclivities that the straight, moral world looks down upon.
The reason, according to Code Pink, The Gay Liberation Front and Mad Money’s Jim Cramer, is that MEIH’s (Moslim Extremists in Hiding) while remembering to take along their knives and Superman comic books, often forget their wives. Which, of course, leads to lonliness, depression and eye twitching, which many extremists mistake for a kind of gay come-on. But, as Mike Ditka says, only losers dwell on the past.
So what does the future hold? Well, many experts on the Muslim Extreme or (“streamers”) as they like to be called), it sometimes brings out a giggle, believe the self recrimination, or, in other words, Muslim self hate for being what they hate;gay, can be treated with therapy understanding and dunking in small vats of goat’s milk. In fact, a group of conservative Austrian Psychiatrists have offered to spend a month living with the MEIH’s, talking about memory tricks they can use to remember to take their wives when they have to stay in their “Safe Houses” or, in terms a Muslim can understand, in their “Safe Holes.” which probably would look a lot sharper with a women’s touch.
Additionally, I’d just like to say that if the European Fatwads ever determine that gays should be killed, I think that would generate very bad public relations, not to mention acid reflex flareups in the gay community. And the sentence of murder would be condemned throughout the world except, of course, for parts of southern Tennessee and Jersey.
One final thing.
Kudos and compliments to Bruce Bawer for the wonderful article about the possibility of murdering European gays. If I may, though, I personally would like his next article to focus on rogue Fatwa elements coming out for death to American longshoreman and pipefitters because they’re so dirty after their shifts.
And let’s not forget a fatwa death sentence for short people because, as everybody knows, they have no reason to live.
@Rachel: Don’t quit your day job, honey.
Europe is back too its Pacifism from 1934 to the Start of WW 2 plus 6 months all over again .
The names have been changed to protect the new Guilty .
Quote _
He who’s defends not his Freedoms soon departes from his Freedoms and lives .He is in fact enslaved to others stronger beliefs and ways than his own .
Sun T, . The Art of War . 1200 AD .
Remember that Europe has been asleep on a wave of prosperity since the 1970s. Islamism appears to have gained a foothold, but that illusion is likely to be temporary as the global ‘downturn’ takes hold. This is most likely the Kondratieff ‘winter’. With a change of fortune, literally, will come a change of heart and mind, and not only in Europe. Europe’s muslim minority is disproportionately dependant on welfare. They are vulnerable to a change in attitudes from both Government [welfare] and the indigenous population.
Full Blown Socialism is a long time European Crack addiction as many in the USA want here as well .It’s only cure is Capitalism which is impossible with our and Their Socialism agenda coming here as well .
You can’t give Europeans Leg braces for 37 years and then expect them to walk much less run .
I was Sealy (Posturepedia ) of Canada President in Toronto for 8 years .USA operations
I saw that Canidian addiction first hand ….. the powerful Unions, Lawyers and Socialist stopped dead every useful change economically or traditionally .
The Moslem Issue in Canada is getting far worse as well .
There is no question th next Bombing in America like England with be born here .
Tim Turner:
What it boils down to is, which authority is followed. I choose to follow an authority who is timeless, rather than one which is temporal.
For, I have no problem with the view that there is more to life than what is identifiable.
David W. Lincoln:
Tim Turner:
What it boils down to is, which authority is followed. I choose to follow an authority who is timeless, rather than one which is temporal.
For, I have no problem with the view that there is more to life than what is identifiable.
________________________
Indentifiable . Is one —I SHALL SET THE PRESENTANCE FORE SAID KARL MARX . PLATO SAID THERE IS NO RIGHT AND WRONG .THE LEFT MARCHING ORDERS TO THIS VERY DAY SADLY. WAHHABBISM IS NO DIFFERENT .
1200 YEARS LATER … SIR !
How about we examine what takes place before the urges. What about a number of examples of being critical of the other gender? There are fewer examples of extending the benefit of the doubt being extended to members of the other
gender, by homosexuals, than by straight people.
The eurotrash are going to get what they deserve. Their gutlessness will leave my son in America Alone, but at least I will get to live long enough to see the first few euronations go under sharia law. I will gloat my way to the grave. Screw them and their hatred of America that they have nurtured for hundreds of years.
Rachel Peepers,
I think that is meant to be humorous? It is actually mostly unintelligible.
Rachel Peepers: Great article. Very funny. Unfortunately many of your subtle – and even non-too-subtle – allusions were wasted on the less well-read here.
I might not agree with the Islamic council, I might be a LGBT activist, but this article is one of the most twisted ”yellow faced” articles I have read in ages.
first, it must be remembered that Kobilica is acting as a politicien, and this is how political announcments goes, at least he on the contrary to many american politiciens, have not said a direct lie.
and last time I checked the Vetican didn’t really say that gay people shouldn’t be killed either, they said something like ” human right laws must be applied and concidered”, but never anything about the churce excepting gay people
if you are going to attack someone for not being 100% forward, direct and clear, and for having subtle meaning, then perhaps you should do the same ”crime” yourself.
pch1013,
You asked why Bruce Bawer doesn’t simply leave Norway and return to his native USA. The answer is obvious: his Norwegian boyfriend cannot get a green card through their relationship. Bawer, however, can get a work permit in Norway through his boyfriend–for now. It doesn’t take a genius to realize that, once Muslim voters in Norway reach critical mass, they will insist on ending gay immigration rights. Those who aren’t sure whether gays should be put to death probably won’t be happy giving foreign homosexuals work permits.
I have to disagree with everyone on this post who blames the current problems in europe on socialism. The elements of leftist ideology which teach that poverty is the cause of extreamism and violence are the culprits.
Alot of ideas that stike many Americans as “socialist” have been succesful in many countries regardless of other circumstances. Europe would not be in any better shape in terms of immigration than it is now if it lacked every element of socialism except welfare checks. And of course that wouldn’t even be an issue if it weren’t for immigration. Welfare is extensive in South korea and Japan and hasn’t destroyed those nations ability to compete economically. This is simply because the populus of these nations have a lifestyle that doesn’t put much strain on their system and because they don’t have many children. Fascist ideologies in these nations aren’t growing in leaps and bounds as a result of people losing their minds because they don’t have to work. And inspite of the immigration issue in many of these semi socialist countries their per capita economic productivity and currency value is high. As are the products they produce.
If immigration is handled in a restrictive and values minded manner, and the society and government encourages society to value enlightened beliefs and habits (rather than multiculturalism) and civic virtue through education and organized defense of their society then things seem to work out.
In regards to demograpics. Medical technology will peopably render aging irrelivant in a relitivly short amount of time and nations that took in tones of immigrants fearing that they weren’t going to be able to replace themselfs will look rather foolish. Even the child bearing rate of Japan will look like it could result in overpopulation rather than depopulation.
what is wrong with europe why cant a continent that had the roman army, the vikings and the Wehrmacht figure out what to do with a couple of dangerous muslums. just throw them out, round them up, put them on planes and deport them or banish them if they were born there. screw thier soverign rights its time to get tough or die.
Watching those two gays hanged in the islamic republic of Iran, was the perfect example of the islam a religion of peace. All who wish to, or sit sleepily by while all of Europe is placed under sharia can just sit on their coward asses and wait for the religious police to come get yo punk ass. Give Me Liberty or Me Death; literally what it’s going to take and until Europe wakes up and rolls up its sleeves and starts knocking down the doors of mosques and madrassas and start throwing these ignorant hate filled, death loving idiots out of their countries, sharia is what Europe will have, as soon as their baby mills which Europe is paying for with its wellfare states, completes its job of making the numbers a voting majority; THE END
United States of ChristianAmericanPatriots
Oh, and by the way, there is no discussion in islam about homosexuals being put to death; that’s just the way it is, the quran, hadith and mohammed, can’t be changed, overruled or rethought out, it’s the word of allah.
United States of ChristianAmericanPatriots
hæ?
“Why would Norway’s history of collaboration and surrender reverse itself to defend its few gay citizens
when it winks at the organization of surviving Norwegian traitors who fought the Allies in Hitler’s military in France holding regular reunions and gatherings.”
1) The Soviets had the most sacrifices during WW2, they lost aboout 20 mill people. USA did not save us alone. Also we had a resistance, against people like Quisling, thank you very much.
Bawer is a brilliant man, but please relieve us from americans who think they saved the world.