Europe Declares War on American Ratings Agencies
As the financial crisis that began on Europe’s periphery — Greece, Ireland and Portugal — moves closer to the major economies of the center – Italy and Spain – and now threatens the continued viability of the euro currency, European leaders are scrambling to find a containment strategy. Their preferred course of action: shift responsibility by blaming the Americans.
European officials struggling to prevent the collapse of what has been described as “a giant Ponzi scheme” are angry — very angry — at American credit ratings agencies for downgrading the creditworthiness of several European countries and thus publicly exposing the true extent of Europe’s debt crisis.
Far from acknowledging the self-inflicted nature of Europe’s financial problems, European officials are pointing fingers across the Atlantic, portraying the ratings agencies as part of an “Anglo-Saxon” (i.e., neoconservative free market capitalist American) conspiracy to destroy the euro currency and, by extension, Europe’s broader pretensions to superpower status.
The three leading ratings agencies criticized for being American – Standard & Poor’s, Moody’s Investors Service, and Fitch Ratings, which actually is majority owned by a French company — rate the creditworthiness of companies and countries, as well as the quality of funds and stocks. Their assessment determines the conditions under which firms, banks, or countries may borrow money on the capital markets.
The agencies, which collectively hold a global market share of roughly 95 percent, exert considerable influence over Europe because European companies active on U.S. markets are required by securities laws to have ratings that are issued from these firms.
But European politicians are now accusing these companies of outside meddling, as if American ratings agencies are responsible for the bankruptcy of countries like Greece, Ireland, and Portugal. In a frantic effort to regain control over the narrative that was carefully crafted over many years that Europe is a global model of socialist utopia, European elites (as always in denial), are, once again, reaching for the tried and true fall-back position of anti-Americanism.
The latest bout of anti-American rhetoric was triggered by the July 5 decision by the New York-based Moody’s to downgrade Portugal’s credit rating to “junk” status. The downgrade was made just as Portugal was to implement austerity measures in return for a €78 billion ($110 billion) EU-IMF bailout, and as the eurozone was struggling to craft yet another rescue package for Greece.
Consider, for example, the reaction of Viviane Reding, the European commissioner for justice. Reding told Germany’s Die Welt newspaper: “Europe cannot let itself be destroyed by three American private companies.” She added: “I see two possible solutions: either the G-20 states agree together to smash the cartel of American rating agencies. Or independent European and Asian rating agencies are established.”
European Commission President José Manuel Barroso accused the agencies of “mistakes,” “exaggerations,” “conflicts of interest,” and of having an anti-European “bias.” Barroso asked: “Is it normal to have only three relevant actors on such sensitive issues where there is a great possibility of conflict of interest? Is it normal that all of them come from the same country?”
Attacking the domination of the ratings sector by the Americans, Barroso continued: “It seems strange that there is not a single rating agency coming from Europe. It shows there may be some bias in the markets when it comes to the evaluation of the specific issues of Europe. It is important that we do not allow others to take away our ability to make judgments.”
The unelected Barroso also said it was time for a European ratings agency to emerge as a counterweight to the U.S.-dominated groups: “We know that when there are oligopolies there are sometimes attempts to abuse the dominant position or market manipulation, so the more competition the better — this is our credo.”
German President Christian Wulff said it was shocking that the rating agencies continue to exercise so much power, and warned of the need for policymakers to “re-conquer the primacy of politics.” German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble said he “cannot decipher” the recent ratings downgrades of Portugal. “We need to examine the possibilities of smashing the rating agency oligopoly,” he added.
European Commissioner for Internal Market and Services Michel Barnier said something must be done to cut the “power and influence” of the American agencies. In true Eurocrat fashion, Barnier also issued a veiled threat: “I invite the agencies, which are under the control of national supervisors, to be extremely careful to fully respect EU rules. They should learn the lessons from the past.”
Greek Foreign Minister Stavros Lambrinidis criticized the behaviour of the agencies as “the wonderful madness of self-fulfilling prophecy” because it made it harder for insolvent countries like Greece and Portugal to borrow to keep afloat. Never mind the “madness” that European leaders have allowed themselves to believe they can borrow forever without ever having to pay back the debt they have accrued.
European Commissioner for Economic and Monetary Affairs Olli Rehn accused Moody’s of “so-called clairvoyance.” Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou said the ratings agencies were “seeking to shape our destiny and determine the future of our children.” As if the rating agencies accumulated the mountains of Greek debt.
Luxembourg Prime Minister Jean-Claude Juncker said the influence of American credit rating agencies was “disastrous.” The Italian chief economist of the OECD, Pier Carlo Padoan, said of the ratings agencies: “It’s like pushing someone who is on the edge of a cliff. It aggravates the crisis.”
German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle called for the creation of a European rival to the three agencies. “It is necessary to establish an independent European rating agency. This must be a goal that we all work on intensively,” he said.






The ratings agencies are not the big three because of their wonderful record, but because US laws require that certain fiduciaries use ONLY those agencies in their decisions.
Furthermore, had the ratings agencies been doing their job right, instead of accepting payments from those whom they were rating, we never would have had the mortgage meltdown. These “reliable” credit ratings agencies constantly handed out AAA ratings to collaterialized debt obligations (CDO’s – bundles of mortgages) that were utter junk.
I don’t have a lot of sympathy for the Europeans, but these agencies do have way too much power, statutory power included.
Because approving bad mortgages was government policy under the CRA (believe it or not, I understand that it still is!!!!), with Janet Reno threatening criminal prosecution of any hold-outs, what do you think would have happened to a rating agency that short-circuited the instruments that enabled the scheme to operate? Look at both American and EU govts’ approach to rating agencies today. Are they interested in objective analysis of debt-worthiness? No, they are going to try to intimidate them and/or to replace them with govt-controlled Potemkin agencies. Leftists view the truth the way Dracula sees the crucifix.
It’s amazing these rating agencies are still in business after the way they AAA rated mortgage backed securities.
But the Demonrats swore to the nation that it was all Bush’s fault that the Europeans didn’t like us! I’m still waiting on the Europeans to demand that President Hopey Changey give back his Nobel prize…
“Far from acknowledging the self-inflicted nature of Europe’s financial problems, European officials are pointing fingers across the Atlantic, portraying the ratings agencies as part of an “Anglo-Saxon” (i.e., neoconservative free market capitalist American) conspiracy to destroy the euro currency and, by extension, Europe’s broader pretensions to superpower status.”
Newsflash to the Europeans: The Ratings Agencies are about to downgrade America’s rating too as a result of this debt debacle in Washington. Some “control” we have over the ratings agencies when they turn on the United States, hmmmm? The Europeans are crybabies who just don’t want to admit that their social-welfare states simply ran out of money, or other people’s money. Now they have to deal with it and they can’t. Greece IS bankrupt and does not have any hope of paying back its huge loans. Even the latest “plan” to bail out Greece is simply a structured bankruptcy. So to the Europeans, all I can say is go cry some place else. We have our own problems here because we have a president who thinks the European welfare-state model is what we should be following here in America as well. Hopefully, we can put a stop to that in 2012.
Facts: According to the rules, Europe could have never allowed Greece to become a member of the Euro group. The only option for Greece seemed to be cooking the books with help of Goldman Sachs. The consequences of this criminal action: None for Goldman Sachs but a disaster for the Euro group. However, we Europeans should care less about US rating agencies and their sinister actions. We should focus on the question why our so-called elites allowed Wall street and US rating agencies to control our markets. Without control, we Europeans are not able to influence our own fate but are slaves of Wall street. What a shame.
Well before the Euro was even contemplated, it was well known that the PIGS countries had a very uncertain grasp of fiscal discipline. It was known at the institution of the Euro that the PIGS countries would not, could not be held to a limited range of budget deficits. Going in, the Europeans knew that the PIGS disaster was a dead certainty. They have received what they asked for, and they don’t like it. What is the solution? Restore the D-Mark. Do that, and all the rest will fall into proper place. The other countries will restore their old currencies and they will establish their proper rate of exchange. The only better solution would be to restore the old gold and silver coinage. Only with real money will Europe find health. So, too, the USA and the rest of the world. Real money isn’t so easily manipulated.
The Germans liked the Euro when the figured out that a devaluated DM which is what the Euro is was a boon for their exports. Now that they have to shell out hundreds of billions to bail out the deadbeats they aren’t too enamored of the Euro. What happens when France has trouble meeting its obligations? In the meantime any one who lives in the PIIGS and hasn’t moved their money out of those countries to Switzerland or elsewhere (if they can do so and have the funds to do so) is an idiot. Any American who has the funds to do so and hasn’t moved his or her money out of the country and into legitimate AAA countries and currencies is also equally stupid. Its your money, not your government’s money and you don’t have to allow them to rob you blind by way of debasing your wealth if you can help it. Honest governments don’t rob their citizens. Dishonest governments do and one of the ways they lie is by shooting the messenger of bad news.
The German people disliked even the option that we could lose the DM. We loved the DM, because that money gave us all we never would have got otherwise: a normal life. However, more than money we loved German reunification and the loss of the DM was part of the price we had to pay. In the EU treaty there is explicitly mentioned that no country has to bail out another country and German decision-makers emphasized that the Euro would be as hard as the DM(no inflation). Did we profit from the Euro? Some German cooperations might agree because the Euro facilitates business. However, even during DM-times we were champions in export trade. There are always two ways to influence export trade: a low currency(Euro) or low wages. Guess what we have?
“In the meantime any one who lives in the PIIGS and hasn’t moved their money out of those countries to Switzerland or elsewhere is an idiot” Or perhaps a Patriot?
Yours is a truly stupid comment. The rating agencies for all their faults have simply exposed the truth. Greece, Portugal, Spain and italy should have never been allowed to adopt the Euro. Their finances were horrible at the time on their adoption of the Euro and have only gotten worse since then. These countries can never repay the debt they owe, their economies will never produce the growth needed to do so. The EU Central Bank should have let them default. The first loss is the best loss. They will default in the end as the more they borrow to paper over the debt the less able they are to actually pay the debt. More money flushed down the drain. As for the US, its rating will be reduced, the growth isn’t going to happen until such time a real fiscal conservative party takes control and eliminates agencies, departments, programs and staff in a massive way and reforms the tax code so all pay a piece. The markets are not foolish, they already priced the risk in to the yields and the currency exchange.
“Greece, Portugal, Spain and Italy should have never been allowed to adopt the Euro.” I agree – with the exception of Italy. The north of Italy (Milano) and Südtirol are quite well off and rather competitive – even in relation to Austria and Germany. Südtirol was given to Italy after World war I, because Italy had changed sides and therefore had been rewarded. For Südtirol and other small places, Europe is very important.
By the way, what about the Pound? No, the US never will lose their AAA rating. After all, it could be claimed they can pay their debts. The question, however, is why you are so unwilling to do so.
From Yahoo news: “S&P downgrades US credit rating
By HENRY C. JACKSON – Associated Press | AP – 1 hr 26 mins ago”
See, Marriane? This is why you should never say never when it comes to human affairs.
“The only option for Greece seemed to be cooking the books with help of Goldman Sachs.”
No, sweetie. Greece cooked the books. Goldman only reviewed the books and based their rating on what was in the books. Greece needed to become part of the EU, knowing their financial collapse was coming – so, they cooked the books. What about Italy, Portugal, Spain and Ireland? Goldman’s fault, too? Or maybe, America’s fault.
“However, more than money we loved German reunification….”
And who made that unification possible? And now when things are bad, you turn on her. That’s why I have no respect for Europeans such as you.
“And now when things are bad you turn on her”. Help, I have some problems with that sentence. For whom are things bad? For Greece? Maybe. But I will never forgive those Greek people who protested with Nazi symbols against us. The real problem of Europe is neither the financial market nor some dozens different languages (little Switzerland has four languages),the real problem is a lack of solidarity. Everybody wants to profit from the EU, nobody wants to pay. That is why Europe will not function in the end. Who is “her”? The US? “You have no respect for Europeans such as me” That is fine. Respect was never an argument for American-German relations. However, we have quite a lot of empathy for ordinary American,but absolutely none for the global market monsters. Economy should serve people and not the other way round.
Don’t our European friends have their “credit rating thing” exactly backwards? Those three American credit rating agencies/companies didn’t create the European socialism which in turn created the banking crises….in turn creating these ratings questions……inside……..Europe.
“The unelected Barroso also said it was time for a European ratings agency to emerge as a counterweight to the U.S.-dominated groups: ‘We know that when there are oligopolies there are sometimes attempts to abuse the dominant position or market manipulation, so the more competition the better — this is our credo.’”
Rarely have we seen a statement that is so breathtaking- in its hypocrisy.
The EU Commission is an unelected body that is trying to run Europe (and, by extension, the world) as a feudal fief, with their opinions being the only ones that matter- even or especially when those opinions are based on their own “feelings”, irrespective of facts. And “competition”, of any kind, is about as welcome in their mental universe as Gabriel Van Helsing would be at a vampire soiree’.
There have been several warning signs that the EUC was veering over into fantasyland, but this pretty much confirms it. A trio of independent Non-Governmental Organizations are saying that Greece, etc., are poor credit risks? Well, we will just attack those NGOs for not parroting our party line!
And oh yes, create new government-run organizations to replace them- that will only say what we tell them to.
Having one of the chief oligarchs of the foundering European Union accuse those warning of the flooding in the bilges of being an “oligopoly” hits a level of bizarreness Europe has rarely achieved. Probably only Hitler’s issuing orders to Wehrmacht divisions that no longer existed in April of 1945 is in the same league. (Godwin’s Law be hanged.) Barroso and his friends should be less worried about who the bearers of bad news are, and more worried about what they are going to do about the bad news itself. (Hint; financial reform of the governments in question would be a start.)
Barroso can’t be held altogether to blame, however. Europe’s “social democratic” governments have been operating on the “whatever we want to do based on our dogmas is right, good, and workable” principle at least since the 1950s. Unfortunately, the bills are now coming due.
Also, he is following the example of no less a worthy than our own revered President, Mr. Obama, who has raised threatening the private sector, blaming the bearers of news he doesn’t want to hear, and browbeating anyone who dares to disagree with him, to an art form. Mr. Barroso really can’t be blamed for thinking it would work for him, too- after all, the MSM loves the EU almost as much as they love Mr. Obama.
Finally, if Mr. Barroso wants an example of how an “independent, regional” ratng agency like he dreams of would work, he has a perfect example in two previous such ratings groups, rather far to the East. One being the old Ministry of International Trade and Industry (MITI) in Japan, and the other being the Finance Ministry of the People’s Republic of China.
The former exaggerated the strength of the Japanese economy in the 1980s to the point that when it collapsed, it brought down not one but three successive governments. The latter insists that the PRC’s economy is the strongest on earth, when it really is a largely agrarian, subsistence-level economy that uses a syndicalist-socialist tech sector to bankroll a superpower-wannabee military. It’s headed for a crash, too, and when it happens, it’s going to be epic- in the Biblical (OT) sense.
If Mr. Barroso thinks this sort of thing is a good idea, by all means let him try it. And he can face the consequences when Europe’s economy crashes anyway, no matter how rosy the reports are.
clear ether
eon
They have turned away from the Lord and embraced all that does not please Him. The blessing and the gifts that were given to them, they shall not have.
They have desired ignorance over knowledge, darkness over light, poverty over prosperity. They are delusional and will not listen.
Their hope lies in their return to the Lord. But will they do it?
It is as simple as the word TRUST. There is NO TRUST and for this we will see strife and mayhem visited upon our lands until TRUST is restored by men of virtue and honor. Evil exists only through a absence of Good. Restore Virtue, Honor and the courage to do what is right by GOD and man. Do this and our world will become the place that your grand children and their children will grow up and prosper. Do not and your children will see the descent of mankind back into the animal realm.
So let the Europeans start their own credit rating agencies. We can then have a ratings war, and nobody will trust anybody, while their bonds go down the tubes and we see million Euro postage stamps. (I’ve seen a Million Mark stamp from the Weimar Republic.)
Euronate on the lot of ‘em.
Living in Ireland I have been flabbergasted by the way rating agencies have been downgrading certain European countries especially where real steps have been taken to address the economic problems. Why across the Atlantic in the USA, where there is a dire situation in a number of states (the size of some European countries), do the rating agencies appear to be wearing blinkers? Why are they not being even-handed, being equitable? They act rapidly against European countries while they are continually going no further than making noises against the USA? Are they in the pocket of certain investors who stand to profit by having certain European countries downgraded? I would like to see these agencies subjected to a rating. How often, over the past decade, have they been on target and how often totally off the mark ? Please, can anyone enlighten me?
Many states in the USA have seen their rating downgraded. California’s was cut over a year and a half ago.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/01/14/us-economy-california-idUSTRE60C5Z620100114
Illinois was also downgraded about a year ago.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/12/illinois-suffers-new-cred_n_610058.html
It’s only a matter of time before the USA is downgraded.
Does the Irish economy have any realistic chance of growing enough to be able to pay down its debt? If the answer is yes then you have a point. If not, then the ratings agencies are right. That Ireland made such a horrible stupid and completely unnecessary decision the brought the country to where it is is entirely the fault of it elected leaders and those who voted them in. The only the thing the austerity measures do for Ireland is to eliminate the hopes of another round of fantasy living and keep the country from piling on even more debt that it can’t afford. Letting the banks fail would have been cheaper and in the end less painful.
I posted a reply yesterday with links, but for some reason the moderator did not allow it. Numerous states in the USA have been downgraded in the last 2 years. California and Illinois come to mind off the top of my head.
But this is the EU’s way! This article could have been written three months ago and set aside for publication now, so predictable were their actions and attitudes.
Barroso & Co. have, since the inception of the EU, acted as the new titled nobility of Europe, making it clear at every juncture that they’ve already decided the paths to be taken and the changes to be made. As the various countries took opportunities to give their citizens a vote on establishing the European Constitution – and as each country in turn voted “No” – the EU Commission simply ignored each vote and swept on with its agenda, eventually establishing by fiat what it couldn’t accomplish democratically.
The second-most frightening part of all of this has been the Commission’s utter unconcern that everyone in the world knew exactly what it was doing while it was doing it. It seemed as though the EUC knew that continent-wide disapproval and objection was of no importance or significance to its plans and actions.
The most frightening part of all of this was that the individual elected leaders of the various EU countries eventually acquiesced in all of the EUC’s power grabs – throwing the expressed desires and national integrity of their own countrymen aside – just as the EUC seemed to be convinced that they would.
So, this latest threat from Barroso is completely in keeping with the character of the EUC. Voters reject the Constitution? We’ll take away the vote and do it ourselves. Voters reject the massive bailouts? Please quiet down while we bail these countries out. Ratings agencies indicate that massive debt with no prospects of economic improvement is a significant factor when considering new loans? Who let these people in here? How does saying such things help our efforts? Please leave now – we’ll rate our own economies, thank you.
And they’ll establish rating agencies, and rate themselves, and the world will act as if these agencies are legitimate.
Damned if I know why. The conspiracy buff in me notes that this is the exact philosophical attitude shown by Obama, with his disregard that all the world can easily see his thefts and his intentional vandalism as he works his way to an undemocratic thugocracy.
“I would like to see these agencies subjected to a rating. How often, over the past decade, have they been on target and how often totally off the mark ?”
Tough to measure, given the self-fulfilling nature of their ratings pronouncements.
Imagine that a famous movie reviewer trashes a new movie and recommends that we all just skip it. One year later, we review ticket sales for that movie, and they are dismally low. Bad movie? Or, influential review?
I have little sympathy for the Europeans, but, that those agencies still have statutory powers is totally disgraceful. They have proved themselves nothing but thumb suckers. Why should anyone on this earth regard them as anything else?
Western society is in decline,our economies are all about to collapse.Western elites (both European and American & at least one Australian I can think of)have suffered from a massive outbreak of moral bankruptcy; this has lead to our (Western societies)financial bankruptcy.
Judging from what I have read above, American’s consider European’s to be intellectually challenged socialists. As a European, I have a very different perspective which I think stems from my education, cultural heritage and media interactions. In social and political science this can be referred to as social construction or as Gramsci termed it ‘hegemony’ used here as the dove-tailing of ideas in society so that thoughts and behaviour are controlled in a non-violent manner (see http://www.powercube.net/other-forms-of-power/gramsci-and-hegemony/). In my opinion, the problem is that none of us are in possession of all the facts, and we never will be. This is because the world is run by powerful businessmen and politicians etc., thus we on the lower echelons of society (the vast majority) have not got the faintest idea what is going on. We’re on a staple diet of crumbs, hanging out blaming one another meantime, there is a power struggle for global governance/dominance.
We all really need to wake up and stop arguing the toss amongst ourselves if we want to maintain some sort of liberty.
“Judging from what I have read above, Americans consider Europeans to be intellectually challenged socialists.”
Actually, no. (Although Jean-Francois’ Revel might agree with the hypothesis.) Just your governments, academia, and media. The people you refer to as actually making the decisions.
In short, you have the same problem Americans do; a small, insular “ruling class” which is absolutely convinced that they are right about everything, and who, when things don’t work out, blame everyone outside of their little circle for the failure.
Your solution is the same as ours. It’s called “vote for somebody else”.
Except where the European Union Commission is concerned. Considering their unelected status, autocratic enthusiasms, and arrogant refusal to recognize reality when it hits them in the face, mere “parliamentary” procedures may not be sufficient.
In the end, you may be reduced to torches and pitchforks, there.
cheers
eon
It’s amazing how lightly the fact that Fitch is in fact EU majority owned (French), is skipped over, and how rarely it is mentioned.
I’m involved in an initiative to launch a credible, international alternative CRA to the big3, together with a group of industry veterans and professionals. Relatively speaking, small sums of funding are targeted.
It is well nigh impossible to even get a perfunctory response from any of the politicians mentioned above (and others) on the subject when it comes to concrete support (NOT FUNDING), thoug. So my conclusions: much posturing for the gallery by the politicians, but when it comes to concrete action, alas………
On the other hand, (positive) responses from Asia are easier to come by, and there I hear little public posturing by politicians! Makes you think about the old adage on actions and words, not so?
This is the best news. What an opportunity. Let the EUros establish their own rating agency, beholden to Brussels. Let them issue a Mega-A rating to Greek bonds, forcing all within the Eurozone to buy Greek bonds at 1%. Let the USA rating agencies rate Greek bonds as junk, which should pay 19%. The arbitrage possibilities alone could make me millions.
Alors! What to do? I suggest a clever attack. We create our own rating agency. The EU Socialist-Democratic Union of Credit Agencies. The EUSUC. This agency will not take the ignorant cowboy approach of American credit agencies. Non, it will balance the credit of the various countries involved in sophisticated and subtle ways and voila! EUSUC!! Ignoramuses in the US downgrade the bonds? HA! We know these bonds are a AAA EUSUC!!!
Then we create an American agency to rate the American bonds of Obama (never cowboy tea party ignorants). This is the Socialist-Democrat Union of Currencies for the newly formed American Socialist States or as the rating agency is know SUC-oh never mind.
The Europeans can create their own ratings agencies. But if their ratings don’t correlate with foreign rating agencies their ratings will mean nothing and been seen for what they are; frauds. No investor will rely on them and no one with serious money will invest in those bonds unless they pay the real risk rate.
mmmm, Lehmans was rated AAA 2 days before it was bankrupted, AIG was rated 2A a few days before it’s massive taxpayer funded bailout, the list goes on.
The ratings agencies get their profits by grading as many companies AAA as they can get away with BUT when pressed the ratings agencies say they only ever give their ‘opinions’. They will not stand by their own ratings as they could be wrong, that is why they are merely opinions.
In my ‘opinion’ they are all liars, they are all corrupt and they are all theives. They can stuff their opinions where the sun don’t shine.
the ratings agencies like everything else still need to answer to the market.
not all the people are fooled. as to europe …they knew the Greek books were cooked when they let them into the EU. as did the market.
there has been a lot of dishonesty in the system, but like any ponzi scheme it cannot go on forever.
The EU isn’t wrong. There is nothing holy about our credit rating agencies, except that the US Government seems to mandate their use in certain cases. If the European countries can stand one of these agencies on their own, it will only be good for business.
The hard part is engendering trust and a track record of responsibility. They’re in rather short supply of both right now. In fairness, we’re not exactly a model of this either. However the ratings agencies pre-date all this mess. Even with all their flaws, we know their performance in good times as well as bad. That’s more than an EU hastily assembled version will have.
There are only 3 ratings agencies. Do you not see how bad this is? Whats worse is they are all protected by government but laws that require ratings to come from one of those three companies.
I say get rid of the protections they have and see if they can compete in the free market that they love so much. I’m 100% that a bunch of new credit rater start ups would send them out of business.
Let`s bring home our troops from Europe and they will come begging us to protect them.
I enjoy, result in I discovered exactly what I was looking for. You have ended my four day lengthy hunt! God Bless you man. Have a great day. Bye