8 Mistakes Men Make About Women
Dear Belladonna Rogers,
I just read John Hawkins’ superb column titled “7 Mistakes Women Make About Men.“ I’d like to see one about mistakes men make about women.
Muddled Man in Miami
Dear Muddled Man,
Here it is, with a bonus eighth mistake — just because I’m a woman.
But first, a few words of introduction. I love men. I’d like to thank the Creator for coming up with the concept of men and then for following through — on what was obviously an amazingly busy week — by creating Adam. Great work! I’ve long been a fervent fan of the male gender, and couldn’t imagine the many joys of my life without them.
That said, the purpose of this column is not to nit-pick, disparage, or criticize men. My aim is to improve inter-gender understanding. You know — like world peace?
We don’t generally talk about our problems. We solve the problem. The only time we generally talk about our problems is because we aren;t sure how to solve them.
Talking about a problem for the sheer purpose of talking about a problem is not pursuing in any way, shape, or form a solution which is what we are programmed to do.
My girlfriend would do this constantly. Tell me her problems then fly off the handle when I offered solutions.
Eventually I just said that I’ll be the solution guy and that her female friends are her treadmill people. Let her mull over her problems with them. It was not worth the headache of offering solutions only to get treated like a shoved cat in a blender.
I’ve known this about men for ages. Why women (yes, I’m one too) insist on talking about their problems to men is beyond me. If you have a problem you want solved and just don’t want to vent (women vent – sometimes we don’t want a solution – we just want to say it out loud) then talk to a man. If you want to vent talk to your girlfriends.
Agree. And why do some women insist on taking their guy clothes shopping? At Kohl’s the other day I witnessed some poor guy having to choose which color shirt he thought looked better on the lady. I wanted to cry for him he looked so miserable. Shopping is NOT an activity for most men. Shopping is bad enough without taking my husband with me. He is only interested in bagging the prize. I am interested in finding good deals. The two activities don’t mix well.
The reason the fellow looked pained when asked which color of clothing he preferred was that he clearly didn’t know the right answer. And there was a Right Answer!
Wrong answers in that situation can become very contentious and frustrating at best.
Of course that one isn’t as bad as the Dreaded “Does This Make Me Look Fat?”
Okay guys, listen up. If she’s wearing one of those padded attack-dog training suits and she asks, “Does this make me look fat?” The answer is NO!
But the answer isn’t just NO.
If you say ‘NO” too quickly and forcefully her next utterance is going to be, “You think it makes me look fat.” And it all goes downhill from there.
Of course if you take too long to say “no” sand by, the Gates of Hades are about to open and the Doghouse is about to become your residence for at least a week – a month if you’ve been married more than 10 years.
You have to answer “no” casually, and practice often so you can get your best ‘why would you ask such a foolish question’ intonations when you answer.
……….
As for the attack-dog training suit; if you feel the need to explain remember, “honey, that thing would make Twiggy look fat” isn’t going to work, if you have to say something say, “My Gosh, you look so tiny in that monstrous outfit.”
So in short, women prefer lies to truth? Alrighty, I guess I’ll have to remember that next time I feel like being honest…
Keep in mind that many men are color blind. Any colors including yellow, green, grey, blue and brown may look the same to them.
No, the answer is yes, but in a witty way. Then she slaps your arm or looks shocked and you laugh and then everything is fine. If you lie and she knows she can make you lie because of pressure, it will lower her esteem of you.
Actually, R.N., it’s not that women prefer lies to the truth. In the example above, the woman is asking the wrong question — she just doesn’t know it. We women have been relentlessly brainwashed into not believing that we can be attractive unless we look like a thin supermodel. (BTW, I think there’s starting to be a backlash to that, but it’s probably going to swing too far the other way before it settles. I fear that the “fat tolerance” and “size acceptance” movement will eventually become just as totalitarian and obnoxious as the other “acceptance” movements that have turned into “we’re going to get in your face and if you don’t grin a big grin and love it, you’re a racist/sexist/homophobe/etc.” But I digress.)
The question a woman should be asking in this scenario is not “Does this make me look fat?” but “Does this make me look attractive to you, darling man of my life? Would you be proud to be seen with me wearing this outfit when we go out?” or, depending on the nature of the garment, “Would it want to make you tear it right off me and hump me like a bunny on the first day of spring when we’re alone?”
We women want to be attractive to you men. Really, we do. “Does this [fill-in-the-blank] make me look fat” is a poor proxy question for the question we really want the answer to, if only we knew how to ask: “Honey, I know that every day I get a day older, and I can’t help it, and one of the unfairnesses of life is that 30-40 years from now you’ll be a silver fox and I’ll just be an old lady. I love you with all my heart and want to stay attractive to you. I know that every day you see cute young girls, younger than I am, and that no matter how much you love me, you can’t help looking at them. It’s normal male nature, but it terrifies me at an existential level I’m not even conscious of. I never want to lose you to some pretty young thing with a perfect complexion and perky boobs that have never nursed your babies, like mine have. I believe your promises to me that you made on our wedding day, but I also know how evolution works, and I know plenty of divorced people. So please, please — I can’t change my skin or my weight (well, not fast or cheaply anyway), but I can still change things up for you by changing my clothes or my nighties or my hairdo. So will you please tell me what you like to see me in?”
That’s relationship abuse.
And she’s training her man to equate physical abuse with (1) intimacy and (2) as an appropriate response to “incorrect” behavior. But when her man reciprocates the behavior she models, look out because the double standards will come out in full force.
To believe her violence is cute and only his violence is violent is foolish.
P.S. If Niecy Nash wanted a man to look at her eyes, her eyes would be showing some cleavage too.
Well, the clothes shopping? She wants to be pretty to him. And she hasn’t any clue what he likes, overall. She wants a “wow” moment. it’s why it’s in Pretty Woman. She wants all her theoretical selves to be imagined.
My husband won’t go shopping with me, b/c he tried it once, and I burst into tears b/c everything was so very ugly. He was trying to solve a problem- I needed a new bra, and he thought this was going to be some Victoria’s Secret/ I never thought it would happen to me/ moment, and, well, they sell brown bras in autumn. and beige. and white. They were so astonishingly ugly. I thought he was trying to tell me that I looked like an old immigrant lady in a polyester housedress. in harness.
Women seem to view shopping as a competitive sport. Most men I know view it as a chore. Years ago, I learned never to select a piece of clothing or jewelry for my wife. No matter what I do, she won’t like it so I quit trying. Now, if she selects something, I have no problem buying it for her (she’s actually very frugal) but no way will I select something for her. At this point, I simply don’t care to put up with the rejection any more.
She’s shopping to impress her friends, not her husband.
Re: Locomotive Breath….BINGO!
This is because “shopping” is a fundamentally different process for men and for women. For men, “shopping” is akin to hunting–you plan for the prey you wish to kill, decide where you can best locate it, go there, kill it, and return triumphant.
For women, “shopping” is akin to foraging–you go into the woods looking for items that are in season, ripe, and desirable, not knowing exactly what you’ll find but putting in the effort to search for what’s good.
The problem is, we call these two fundamentally different activities the same thing, which confuses people enormously.
I am one of the few men that actually have a good eye for women’s fashion. So it is not unusual for my daugthers to ask me to go shopping with them. But…
I always ask if she wants to go “shopping” or if she wants to go “buying.” Those are two fundamentally different things. If she wants to go “buying,” then I’ll ask, “What for?” Example of recent answer: “Daddy, I need to find an outfit to match these new heels I bought.” Then she shows me the heels.
When out with my daughter on a “buying” trip, I have a purpose – a mission, so to speak. And she understands that frivilous “shopping” will not be tolerated. When she says, “ooh, Daddy, isn’t this cute,” my response will be, “we’re not here to go shopping, we’re here to look for your outfit.” It keeps everything within expectations, and we have a good time hunting for her outfit.
On the other hand, if they want to go “shopping,” I suggest they go with their mother, or with their girlfriends. If she absolutely wants me to go with her, then I resign myself to spending several hours in several stores with the very real possiblity of buying nothing at all. It’s kind of like going on a nature walk. I enjoy all the pretty females in their various outfits, look at the artwork and knicknacks, ooh and aah over shades of make-up, or scented candles, etc. And I put a time limit on it!
When “shopping” with my girls, I realize that buying something is secondary. The real point is me spending time with her doing something she likes. It’s like attending their childhhood soccer games. The point is not observing excellent soccer. It is cheering them on.
Great comment, Scott.
You sir, are a genius!
Because while most men prefer to focus on function and aren’t interested in developing an eye for fashion/style, those who do can be quite good at it. My wife outshines me in many categories — fashion sense and color-matching are not among them.
It’s as simple as knowing which version of guy you happen to be with. And the flip side of that, since Ms. Rogers’ article is about the many mistakes men make with women, is that too many men don’t find out ahead of time whether a shopping trip is a buying expedition, or something to pass the time while hunting for ideas. Men are *perfectly* willing to do the latter, I’ve found, but tend to assume the former, which leads to the gal having hurt feelings (as well as “I wanted to spend the afternoon with my husband but now I feel guilty for dragging him around,” and isn’t THAT just a way for everybody to feel miserable) over the misunderstanding.
as well as “I wanted to spend the afternoon with my husband but now I feel guilty for dragging him around,”
If you want to spend the afternoon with your husband, please be considerate once in a while and do things he likes to do, not just things you like to do. Hanging around for hours while the wife goes shopping for herself is something a lot of men find incredibly boring. It’s a selfish behavior on the wife’s part and very inconsiderate. And for the record, most men I know don’t enjoy clothes shopping for themselves very much, either. We want to go in, find what we need, buy it and leave as quickly as possible.
Actually, I think it is that men and women typically have somewhat different problem solving mechanisms. Men decide where they want to be, and plot a path to get there, but it strikes me that women often prefer to verbalize a problem to get a handle on where they want to go with it.
Think of it as writing down everything you know about a problem, except instead of using pen and paper, she’s using your ear.
I believe there may also be an aspect of prioritization of issues, using cues from the listener, using the listeners responses to determine which aspects of the issues are red flags, and which are merely irrelevant. Sometimes it is handy and very illuminating to have a second opinion on whether one is over- or under-reacting to a problem.
That is the problem.
When men talk about a problem, we’re looking for solutions. ADMITTING we have a issue that we can’t resolve is actually loss of face or status (hence the famous stereotype of not stopping and asking for directions). We’re giving up status to find a fix. (Of course we gain status by providing a fix when is why men are frequently eager to help…)
When women talk about a problem, they’re usually looking for comfort. Attempting to provide a fix just gets men in trouble. Problem is, most men have to consciously change mental gears to “Poor Baby” mode; it is not very easy to do. Men are usually insulted by “comforting” and, naturally, we don’t want to insult a woman. We have to work pretty hard to understand that this is not the case with women.
Talking about a problem (usually engineering related) is a good way to organize my thoughts. If I can explain it properly, it becomes better organized in my mind. I often determine the solution myself. It’s just as good if someone else finds the solution.
Wow. People here are now talking about outsourcing the essence of marriage. Give the husband his remote, his dinner and his sex, and outsource the part of marriage where the couple talks, enriches their relationship by mutual venting (it’s not just women who have to vent. We ALL have to vent.)
I’ve read through all the comments, and this much is obvious: guys who are losers with women are all twisted like pretzels by this advice column while the guys in meaningful marriages and relationships are applauding it. Anyone who wants to read what a bunch of embittered women-haters want to vent, read on. Who knew there were so many angry misogynists out there? Their special little club must have held a meeting yesterday that lasted until today. They don’t realize it, pf course, but they’re prime examples of why Belladonna’s column was needed. Too bad they’re too mad to learn from it.
Great observation. I notice that the men complaining are the ones who are really lousy a choosing decent women. What do they say? Caveat Emptor, Let the Buyer beware!
Often women fly off the handle when men offer solutions because they don’t want solutions (at least not right away), they want to be heard and understood. Often the solution from a man comes as a means to shut her up before she’s gotten all her angst out. It is perceived by the woman as “don’t care, shut up.”
Conversely all women should KNOW that men are solution-bringers and be aware of that and not be jerks when men offer help. And maybe women SHOULD listen and focus more on solutions. Dwelling on problems isn’t productive and it isn’t helpful. Focusing on solutions ENDS the emotional angst that started the trouble in the first place.
Before offering their sage advice, men should FIRST offer the mushy emo bits. The hug, the pat on the shoulder, the condolences for ill-treatment. Once it is clear the man has offered a woman’s emotionally needed response, then offer the solution.
I believe men and women should focus on the four rules of communication.
1. Keep it current.
2. Act, don’t react.
3. Attack the problem, not the person.
4. Be honest.
My wife and I understand this. I have learned to listen and not try to solve every problem.
Once in a while, I have to interrupt and say, “I’m sorry, I don’t have time right now to listen. I’m going to have to solve your problem. Do this, this, and this…”
It works for us.
“We don’t generally talk about our problems. We solve the problem. The only time we generally talk about our problems is because we aren;t sure how to solve them.”
Yes. If you want a solution to the problem, ask me. If you want a sounding board, talk to your girlfriends, shrink or priest.
But then, I’m a brute.
I don’t listen to monologs in my relationships anymore. If you don’t want me talking, I’m not listening.
The peace is blissful.
Ms Rogers,
Kudos for the Johnny Bravo reference,
“Enough about me, let’s talk about me”
Your point #7, if I can express this correctly, the “throroughly modern millies” that roam today’s sexual landscape fail for the most part, to merit any gallantry on my part. That’s not to say I don’t keep trying.
If you think you can aid a women in becoming happier by listening to her words, and then acting as if the words she used share anything with the words you heard, you are in for a headache, at best.
Women want roasted ice cubes and they want you to tell them only a fool would doubt they could have them. Women talk to spend time and build relationship, not transfer meaning. Notice how much better male/female relationships have become as we’ve had a generation or two of boys raised by women. Women want what they want and say what they think they should say. I think Dennis Prager is right on the point that not one man on this earth ever doubted women are entirely different creatures from men. And, hardly 1 in a thousand women fully believe men are other than defective hairy women with different plumbing. Not one man misses the lesson he must control his nature to succeed. Hardly any women will admit there is a “woman’s nature.” To them they are what is normal and difference among the sexes is due to men falling short of the female standard.
Dennis Prager has a regular guest 3-4 times per year named Allison Armstrong. She helps men and women understand how men and women are very different. It’s somewhat like the comedian that pointed out differences between men and women using the caveman example. Women are wired to “focus” on 40 things about 50 people over long periods, while men focus on one or two now. Allison Armstrong is fantastic at helping men and women decode the words and action of the other. Google her.
What he said:
http://pjmedia.com/andrewklavan/2012/03/19/is-there-a-war-on-women/?singlepage=true
Just read that piece and I agree. There is a war on men and fathers. The pendulum has swung and needs to swing back.
No a bad assessment, although many women (like me) are less emotional than some men. #5 is right on the money, because most men have a very limited range sexually. #8 is true as well. I’ve found that most men have no idea how much they really talk. Why is it that every detail of their debriefing is essential but the minute we start to talk about anything they look at the clock?
Love Johnny Bravo! That made me smile…
I noticed that too. In my experience, men love to vent even more than women do, which is why they take forever to get to the point.
Actually, IMO, both men and women talk too much.
Some people talk too much because they are discomfited by silence or find it embarrassing. They just gotta have noise all the time, even if they have to make the noise themselves.
Others talk too much because they can’t tell what’s important, appropriate, or interesting from what isn’t, so they constantly digress on whatever tangent comes to mind.
Still others talk too much because they don’t stop to formulate cogent thoughts before speaking, so they spend endless amounts of time trying to think out loud in front of a puzzled and hapless audience.
I suppose nonstop talkers are the Lord’s way of teaching the rest of us patience!
Great article, although I was actually thinking about NFL cheerleaders most of the time I was reading. Male audience – be brief, to the point, and skip the gratuitous pictures (cleavage pictures are not gratuitous.) Are there nachos? I am hungry….
“When a woman says, ‘let’s talk,’ try not to react as if your manhood has just been threatened by all ten of the FBI’s TEN MOST WANTED MOHELS.” – what a GREAT LINE, BELLADONNA!
When I man hears the phrase, “Let’s talk”, his warning sirens automatically go off, because it sounds similar to the phrase, “we NEED to talk.” Typically, men just begin “talking” whenever they feel the need or desire to converse—without prefacing it. It’s just a difference in communication styles.
1. More often than not, women cry in the presence of their menfolk for tactical reasons. This is not cricket and should not be reinforced.
2. When a woman says, “Let’s talk” (or any equivalent) to her man, it nearly always means that she wants something from him. The odds are six-five and pick ‘em that if he refuses to roll over reflexively, she’ll try to “guilt him” into surrendering. (By the way, either cover your cleavage or expect us to stare at it. You can’t have it both ways.)
3. Oh, you have a problem you’d like to “discuss” with me? Before we begin, do you want it solved, or do you just want sympathy? If the former, lay it on me; if the latter, that’s what your mother and girlpals are for.
4. Okay – but then don’t jump down our collars when we misread your signals. You seldom make clear what you really want, all that feminine talkiness notwithstanding.
5. How about telling us what you enjoy – and not treating it as a federal offense when we don’t read it directly from your brain waves?
6. Mom doesn’t live with me. My wife does. See how easily we tell the difference?
7. Gallantry is comatose at best, mainly because of the risks of behaving gallantly toward women who are looking for a reason to take offense at being treated as “the weaker sex.” Hot flash, Mama: You are the weaker sex; that you want us to behave gallantly toward you is your admission that you’re aware of it. Act like you appreciate gallantry if you want it. More, freeze out the perpetually aggrieved double-X types determined to treat us as enemies.
8. Vanity cases among men are rare. Ask us how our day went and the modal answer is “Fine.” But that’s a response we only get from you when you’re not fine – in fact, when you’re angry with us. The modal answer from you is encyclopedic in length and involves a minimum of four other people about whom we couldn’t care less. If we should dare to try to abbreviate it, all hell breaks loose.
A smart man treats women as if they’re women – which also means: he strives not to expose himself to women’s weaknesses or more irritating behavior. Note that a smart woman does the same – to both men and women.
You must have had some recent terribly bad experiences with women. It’s true that some women exhibit some of the characteristics you’ve described. I know, I’ve met a few. It’s pretty unfair however to paint all women with that same brush. And truthfully, you are part of the problem. Let me explain.
Item 3 is a great example. When a woman comes to you with a problem, I’ll agree that us men are wired to try to solve it. But since all she wants from you is for you to be a sympathetic listener, why not just listen? When you blow her off (‘Don’t bring me your problems unless you want me to solve them.’) you come off as cold and uninterested – an uninteresting. and THAT in turn causes her to treat you in certain ways. And the viscous cycle continues.
A smart man treats women as women – which means understanding how they are wired differently.
Conversely, men are wired to try and solve problems. A smart woman would realize this when he does it and not get bent out of shape. It seems some women want to endlessly dwell on their problems instead of fixing them. What’s up with that? Once it’s fixed, it’s no longer a problem.
Very true.
Case in point: “try AND…” is incorrect. It makes NO sense. “And” is a conjunctive. It JOINS two things. So, what is it you are joining? Nothing. You don’t intend to join “try” with anything else in that sentence.
“Try to….” is correct. Use the verb, “to be”, not the conjunctive, “and”.
See how I tried to solve that problem?
Oh, a grammar Nazi on the internet. How amazingly original.
If grammar nitpicking is all you have to contribute to the conversaion, I’d remain anonymous as well.
Larry D: Dat_Truth_Hurts is nothing and no one but a troll.As I’m sure you haven’t, pay him no mind. The comments section is littered with his detritus. You’d think a person would be embarrassed to think or write as he does but there’s no accounting for the fact that some people believe themselves to be Messengers of Dat Truth.Add to that a sadistic streak that has such a person enjoying hurting others, and you get people like him. Makes you understand why the Second Amendment follows immediately on the First, doesn’t it?
Recently? All my life. When a woman claims that not all women are like that (NAWALT) she knows that all women are indeed like that and has no real rebuttal.
When this was encoded into law, (criminal, divorce, childrens and civil) men began backing out of society. When women have to resort to the courts for male support, it won’t take long for them to lose all support of any kind.
A sympathetic listener?
That translates to “I’m only willing to expend the energy to pretend to listen, and make sympathetic sounds. Not to actually be helpful in any way.”
My daughter: “Hi daddy, I love you.”
Me: Hi Charlotte, what do you want now.
Him: honey, I love you so much
Her: What kind of sex do you want now?
Very well said, I concur wholeheartedly.
re: Francis
You’re describing a non-quality relationship between a man and a woman. If this is your idea of relationship (did you observe this between your mom and dad? was this your high school sweetheart who disillusioned you? god forbid it’s indicative of your current committed relationship) then you will always have a poor quality relationship.
This article was in the context of a quality relationship that can always be improved and moved forward into stronger levels of comfortableness.
Exactly what I was thinking about #2: if you want him to look at your eyes, don’t show him your boobs. Duh.
About #1, you are completely wrong – at least about honest women. Mostly, when women cry, it’s because the strength of the emotion they’re feeling (anger, happiness, sentimentality, gratitude, hurt) causes loss of control of the tear ducts. Often, it surprises them as much as it does you, but that makes it no less genuine.
If you’re speaking from personal experience, and have only had contact with manipulative women who use crying on cue as a tool, you’re with the wrong women.
“Where, oh where are you tonight?
I searched the world over, and thought I found true love. You found another and pffftt you were gone”.
What you really ought to do is create a guide for young women to deal with other women, the true source of most of their problems, men are merely bystanders. Want proof? Check out any pack of vicious middle school girls.
Want to know why eating disorders baffle men, they are not the cause, other women are.
Want women to spend less time on their appearance? Notice that women dress and do their makeup for other women. Megyn Kellly typically appears as a tribute to the makeup artist’s craft. But when she did her lingerie magazine spread notice that no man shouted “Put it on!”
Yep. Especially point #1. I was warned by my older sister, who also had daughters, that ages 13-17 were very hazardous for girls, due to other girls. But I still see it in offices full of 40 year olds.
Belladonna,
Thank you more than I can say for what this post exemplifies about you as a source of what all men desire: actionable intel.
Glenn Howard
Wow, I read both this and John Hawkins’ “7 Mistakes Women Make About Men.“
I didn’t see any woman/men-bashing lines in either of them. I found both of them to be enjoyable readings and I’d nominate each of them for the PJMedia Hall of Fame… wait, there is no PJM Hall of Fame — yet.
Sure, there are exceptions from the norm -Francis Porretto also makes valid points, but both articles are right on the money for the most normal cases and are a good starting point for a better understanding between all us.
I think Belladonna is exaggerating in 3-F, of course, most of women dislike monosyllabic answers, yet, once you understand the point, you can still find a way to say the same concise answer without upsetting her. I don’t see any casus belli there.
Also, I find it annoying and hard to read ten pages (I turned it to single page article) with lots of videos and pictures in between, but I guess that’s because she is, well.. a woman, lol, while I prefer a right-to-the-point article without songs I won’t listen, videos I won’t watch and pics I just skip, yes, including the cleavage pic.
Also, a caveat, lot of this should be ignored if you’re a single young man trying to avoid the friend zone.
9. Ignore all of that because that’s merely what women SAY they wish you would do. If you DID do all those things she will regard you as some sort of wimpy metrosexual reject from the world of REAL men and be cruising singles bars for a replacement REAL man in the near future. She WANTS a man to act like a man so she can complain about him not doing those other 8 with all the other happily miserable girls.
Ha, ain’t it the truth. If a guy follows points 1-4, then #5 will be a moot point, a theoretical problem at best. But he’ll have lots of platonic girl friends and he can live vicariously through hearing about how all their boyfriends mistreated them.
That’s why I wrote (post above) that lot of this should be ignored if you’re a young man trying to avoid a friend zone.
The column by Belladonna is spot on, but it should be clear to any reader that it is directed to an already-in-a-relationship adult market, in a stable relationship.
Or women from other countries.
That said, simply insisting upon MUTUAL respect, and following up on that, works just fine here stateside as well (and, I’d argue, is a proper understanding of gallantry — you’re not gallant b/c she’s entitled to have the door held for her. You’re gallant because. (full stop)
This advice is not for immature, dumb tweens.
Nah, it’s not even very good advice for middle-aged married guys. A guys wife will lose respect for him if he lets himself be her emotional garbage dump. Sure, he needs to give her emotional support, but there’s a fine line he has to walk. He’s also got to tell her to get a grip when she’s just indulging her inner drama queen. No woman really wants to be married to a door mat.
Balance. Always balance.
And you think your comment expresses “balance”? The article did not even imply that women are demanding your attention 24/7, but you infer it, in order to demean “them,” the enemy.
This is the tiresome trick of setting up a nonexistent straw man (in your pathetic case, a woman who neither exists in real life or in this article) only to whine, “I don’t want to be a doormat and even if iI did, no woman would want me.” This is not only attacking a straw man, it’s showing the world how selfish you are. Congratulations, you’ve left a ridiculous, illogical and nonsensical comment. You must feel like a real man, now, “JHM.” What a sad commentary on thinking that being caring and supportive is being a door mat. I guess your wife isn’t your doormat, is she? No, you don’t want to be a doormat you only want to walk all over one.
When my wife and I married almost 29 years ago, I told her that I can’t read her mind. If I could read minds, I wouldn’t be working here, I’d be cleaning up at the poker tables in Vegas. If something is bothering her, tell me. We find that long walks or drives are often the best time for conversation. That helps get rid of the distractions and walking is good exercise.
However, when a woman says, “I want to talk about our relationship…”, men usually hear “I want to vent for several hours on everything that’s wrong with you.” Have that happen to you a couple times and you’ll understand why a lot of men cringe when they hear a woman say she wants to talk about a problem. In her world, every problem is the man’s fault. Hell, my wife blames me when it rains.
I wholeheartedly recommend watching this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BxckAMaTDc
Thanks! That’s a funny video because it’s so true. There is science to back up what he says. Back in the 1980s, there was a book and 3 part TV program called “Brain Sex” that examined how male and female brains differed. This was in the early days of PET scans. They’d have male and female subjects do the same activity while being scanned and see how different parts of their brains responded. The verbal activities had the most pronounced differences that I remember. When given a verbal activity, only one central part of the man’s brain was active while almost all of the female’s brain was active. It was an interesting program. For one thing, they said this may explain why men who have a stroke that affects their speech have a harder time regaining it than women.
I just checked and the book is still available on Amazon. It’s pretty old now but it might still be a good read.
I have to agree with the ‘walking cure’. A long walk together is a great way for my wife and I to talk about stuff. The one problem? Cell phones. Best to turn them off, or at least ignore rings.
My last ex wouldn’t talk to me for three weeks because of something she dreamed I did. (True Story) It was bliss!
whoa, it looks like a nightmare! seems like your ex made a big effort to deserve that title “ex”
My ex did the same thing and you’re right, it was bliss compared to the constant berating of me and my kids.
nothing like exercise to naturally edit what we say as being slightly out of breath keeps much of the nonsense out of the conversation
Gotta agree w/ Scott M. Also, why is it that my wife will tell me that she is annoyed at me for something, but has NO clue what it is? And, just HOW am I supposed to figure this out if even she can’t? Naturally, it is always my fault & I don’t even have a clue of what I’ve done…neither does my wife. Roasted ice cubes, indeed!
What a mature relationship you’re in with a lo of good communication. Why don’t you take a walk with your wife and talk it over like grownups instead of grousing anonymously about a problem of hers that’s at least equally a problem of yours. Men and women who want long-term relationships that enhance their lives engage in serious conversations in a mutual effort to understand each other. Millions if not billions of couples do this every day of the week and for many hours on weekends. They INVEST their time and brain power in building a great relationship. It’s very sad that you can’t be bothered to make this life-changing effort.
Maybe if the two of you sat down with your clergyman or a counselor you could help each other understand what the problems may be between you.
A corollary to Item 5, Belladona: Not only does every woman respond a little differently sexually, each woman will respond to different stimuli at different times. And THAT is one of the things that makes sex in a long-term monogamous relationship so enjoyable.
The tip that is lacking is how to care about something that I cannot possibly care about. Or even how to fake it convincingly. I don’t know the people you work with. You don’t like them. Why would I care what they do if it doesn’t affect you, and by extension, me?
I find it difficult to care about continuous complaints about your direct reports when you refuse to hold them accountable. You know the solution, you just don’t want to implement it. I’m not a masochist, so stop dumping it on me.
Bonus points for how to answer a vague question and not get told “that’s not what I meant” followed by a “you always.” Divorce, murder, and gagging are not acceptable answers.
Okay Mark, I’m going to help you out here. Your second paragraph is your answer (yes, you had it all along!). Next time she’s beginning to talk about work, VERY SWEETLY repeat that paragraph to her, then offer her a back rub while listening to some good music.
Problem solved.
You’re welcome.
Way to go, mom2two boys. That’s exactly the point. Well done. I hope for his wife’s sake he heeds your wise words.
I think his point is:
I don’t drag my crap from work home and dump it on you. Please show the same consideration to me.
My wife used to do this and I had to point it out to her that I didn’t want to come home from my workaday crap just to hear her complain about hers. I always made it a point to destress and get out of work mode on the way home, so I could focus on being with my family for the night and I would appreciate the same consideration from her. She got mad when I told her that, but she got over it.
If you have a funny story to tell, by all means do so; men appreciate that sort of stuff. Or if it is so horrific, like borderline criminal, we will listen aptly. But, if it just crying about how jerky other humans are: men already deal with that without acting like we’re the first people to ever be offended by a workmate. We really expect modern, adult women to follow suit. While men are emotionally invested in working, we aren’t so emotionally invested in our workmates to the point of talking about them as if we are in a relationship with them. It isn’t healthy nor is it professional.
The bottom line is that women complain far too often about ordinary things, just to hear themselves talk.
How boring. How boorish.
I completely understood his point and agreed. Not all women complain incessantly about work-related trivialities, and some men do. I was simply pointing out a viable solution, one which you apparently already found. Good for you! As for boorish? Re-read your own response.
But Carly, that song IS about me. If I wasn’t all that, you would be singing about something else.
Actually, as I have contended with my Mother In Law for many years;
Carly Simon’s song is Entrapment, plain and simple.
Fail.
“If you ask a woman a question, don’t interrupt her response by saying, as you impatiently tap your fingertips on the nearest table, “Get to the point.””
It took hearing my husband sigh deeply and ask, “But did you get a ticket?” as I was telling him the enthralling saga of how my pedicure took longer than I thought because it was at the beauty school and you know what that’s like and then my toes weren’t dry but I had only five minutes left on the meter and then it started to snow – to SNOW! for the first time this winter! – but I didn’t want to put on my shoes because I didn’t want to smudge my polish so I had to run to the car in flip flops in the snow — for me to realize that it’s no fun telling him stories. All he wanted to know was if I made it to the meter in time, which wasn’t the point at all.
Look at the bright side; it’s the reason women are pretty good at novels. Jane Austen and L.M. Montgomery come to instantly to mind as authors who make plotless, pointless stories fascinating. Of course they aren’t popular with men in general, but some of us can appreciate the skill it takes to make a story without any significant plot-related events readable. That said, the details in your story would work fine in a novel or a short story but aren’t much use in conversation. It’s one of the reasons I always speak aloud every line of dialog in my own (unpublished) novels. Things that look good in print sometimes sound goofy or awkward. I’ve heard stories such as yours many times, and they’re very irritating. It’s not at all irritating to see it written. Couldn’t tell you why that is, but for me at least, it is.
Yes, women want to share their life – share LIFE. A woman’s clear perception that this is one of the essential ingredients of bonding (sharing life experiences) is spot on and it’s a shame so many men miss out on that.
Even wolves, dogs, cats, bears, foxes smell each other’s experiences (where have you been – oh you were in the neighbor’s yard…is that a cut on your paw – let me lick it) because it’s actually NATURAL to be interested in each other’s experience of life.
It’s okay that men aren’t so interested in this piece, but they do miss out.
p.s. god forbid anyone thinks I’m referring to nonsensical blathering which is an affliction equally distributed among the sexes.
You are actually bringing the animal kingdom into this? Ever see how a lion pride runs? Kind of like modern life. Alpha males make the women folks go out and hunt while he sleeps. Non-alpha males wander alone in the woods begging for scraps.
Plus animals eat their own poop.
My wife knows I don’t tolerate her yammering and she just does that with her mother and girl pals. Ain’t nothing I’m missing.
“Yammering”? Are you in sixth or seventh grade? Your idea of marriage is that when your wife needs to talk you’ll assign that task to her mother and her friends and you’ll skip the interpersonal stuff? Where is her possible motivation to stay with a guy who wants her to serve and service him but who can’t be bothered with being a human being toward her? You’re making up this sh*t, right? No one could believe that anyone this selfish could ever get a woman to walk down the aisle with him. Bad hoax, bad jokes, bad troll.
Sharing? What is being described here is force feeding. If you want to share life, let’s DO something together. That’s sharing. It’s the difference between going fishing together, and washing the fish guts out of the sink afterwards.
um, what color? sparkly? pearlescent?
temporary flip-flops, or for real summer ones? did you think ahead, or were they the salon ones with the name of the salon on the footpad?
how did they do? good job? gloppy paint, or good glaze?
Pain on clipping? pain on clearing hangnails?
really, I’m curious. I’m trying to picture it. it sounds funny.
this little kid’s mom showed up to pick him up from school with temporary flip-flops and a new french manicure, except it was on her toes. first time I saw one.
After 30 years I finally figured out why when food shopping my my wife would seem to stare at the items on the shelf for what would seem like forever. It was the equivilent to me staring at a distant treeline hoping to spot an elk. We still go shopping together and I can relate to her taking her time to check out the items on the shelf, but I do wish I could take my .30-06 with me.
haha! see my comment above.
“your mission, if you choose to accept it” made me lol.
Holy crap! I love women, but they really should come with instruction manuals. I have been married for 20 years and have done so by taking my father’s advice: smile, make eye contact, nod in agreement, and try not to say too much.
That’s the male equivalent to “lie back and think of England”.*
*That reportedly was wedding night advice from Queen Victoria to one of her daughters.
“If you don’t want a full female-brained answer, try to formulate your questions so that the only possible answer is a “yes” or a “no.””
Doesn’t work. This still invites my wife to tell me a story.
Poor baby. You actually have to interact with your wife. Ever hear of the idea of reciprocity? Look it up. Try it.
what aspirin and coffee combination did you guys not take this morning? Did you notice? – Belladonna talks about how much she likes men and sex. Everything after that is details. Minor, tiny details. The details that get you more sex, b/c she’s happy with you. And last time I checked, that’s a pretty good motivation for listening.
and it’s a happy, fun article with videos.
I mean, I get it. I spent 10 months last year working on a project I didn’t tell my husband about, in detail, until Christmas. When it was amorphous, and I was having a miserable time of it, I didn’t want the perplexed- “well- fix it!” not everything gets fixed easily. So I whined to a lot of other people who knew bits and pieces of what I was working on. and got the little suggestions that sort of kept me on track. And what I told him- he was like “Hey, that’s obvious.” Um. no.it.isn’t. which is why it’s my big project.
Or, when I am having my big wandering conversation with my best friend in the whole wide world, which we only do on our birthdays- kids, careers, kids, kids, kids- they have radio antenna receivers going off when they realize they aren’t at focus point (0,0), when I get off the phone, don’t make fun of us. His summary is, in the most sarcastic voice possible ” you just say ” you’re beautiful! And smart! and you can do it!” Um. yeah. You don’t mind so much when I do it to you, now do you? I say ‘You’re handsome’ ” What’s it like to be good at what you do?” “Hey, I really like that!” “Thank you for XYZ” at least once a day. GRRRRR….I’ve known her my whole life. We went from awkward, gawky teenagers to reasonable grownups. You don’t think that didn’t take rocket fuel and confidence-boosting? We practiced on each other, and now we do it for the kids! You think kids are naturally confident, hard-working, and glowing with love? newsflash- you didn’t get that from your mom, so it’s probably not something in the dirt- it might have something to do with positive, supportive friends becoming mothers.
and the little details matter. you act shocked when the regional boss won’t hire someone with scuffed shoes. Well, she’s using the nautilus principle: little things have the shape of the big things to follow. She’s trying to make a million dollar decision on a 20 to 40 minute interview. Everyone looks good on paper. There’s a book out now about finding out what’s not on the paper.
And yet, we need that gossip, b/c not all bosses or jobs are like that. We’re here for you, as much as possible. We like you. We’re willing to fold your laundry- that says a lot.
Just commenting on your “Nautilus principle” line. Beware of any hard and fast rules in hiring, even brains. I have seen more organizations screwed up by having what seems like common-sense, hard-and-fast rules for hiring than virtually any other single cause.
Not hiring for scuffed shoes? She’s an idiot and a control freak.
I know one very successful company that pretty much only hires people with scuffed shoes, metaphorically, of course. They get top talent cheaper, and the hires are grateful for the chance to show what they can do. Most important, it works — even on million dollar projects. It’s called “loose/tight” management: Worry about the important stuff; forget the rest. It takes all kinds of people.
BTW, to link this comment a bit to this article, loose/tight is also a very masculine way of thinking. “Look at his shoes” … not so much.
yeah, she was a control freak and a bad boss. But- she was his boss, and his pay doubled. I need weird intel, sometimes, to figure out what is going on in his office. He’ll bring me to parties just so I can social chat with people. I’m interested, he’s not. Then we figure out what he’s going to do next. He’s in a business that a month ago I said had four people remaining from the 200 five years ago. Well, now it’s down to two. It’s a shrinking industry. His company is “brutal” if your fired and “competitive” if you stay in. He needs four eyes. I don’t have a college degree, but I read his business books, I helped him with his MBA papers, and I read his industry magazines, and sometimes I look at his business publications. I don’t understand all of it. I usually end up having to cobble together an understanding from really scattered bits of information. It kind of bugs me that the best education I got on all this was at what was, objectively, my worst job ever. You’d think part of what makes a ‘best’ job is the learning curve, and ‘worst’ job would be the one to forget. what I know doesn’t ever seem to fit with what’s published, in so many ways. I have to put caveats and maybes instead of being definite and loud and bossy, like Jack Welch.
Articles such as this always make it seem like I’m on a one way street and facing the wrong direction. Seldom seen is the article that advises women in how to communicate (as opposed to manipulate – a strong suite of most women!) with men on their level – not the womans.
Of all the things I’ve learned about women over the 64 years I’ve been alive its this: Men are looking for a woman they can be comfortable with. Women are looking for a man they think they can change and shape into their idea of the perfect companion. A generalization to be sure – but pretty close to the mark.
At least thats been my take on it with the several relationships I’ve been in. A few have come right to the point regarding my love of Harleys – its me or the bike – I still have the Harley.
Comments like yours make me wonder why men like you don’t stick to your Harleys and stop reading articles online. You’d rather be on your bike than a woman. Fine. Have a great life.
1. You missed Frankie’s point. Completely. Very much like Drake missed Carly’s point.
2. If you don’t want your cleavage to be looked at, don’t put it on display. If you make the choice to put it, or other parts of your anatomy, on display, accept the consequences. Or admit you have a lot in common with the OWS crowd.
I have discovered that the secret to a truly happy marriage is to really and truly piss my wife off at least once a week. She’s going to be mad at me anyway. This way I at least know why.
If each spouse gives their very best in their gender specific way and expects nothing in return, the result is connubial bliss. Every day, day in, day out. It helps to know what and how s/he needs it, and this column and John Hawkin’s column do help in that regard.
I would add, just so you fellas know, Beware PMS! It turns us into irrational and untenable crazies. Feed us chocolate and suggest we go to our rooms with a good, violent romance novel and we will soon recover, come back out, and be nice to you again.
Hmm, well… I always try to “own” my PMS, and if it’s making me cranky, I’ll tell my husband what the trouble is so he won’t think that (a) he did something wrong or (b) he’s married to a looney-tune.
I will admit that I’ve been lucky in that my hormones are fairly tame and don’t do much more than give me a backache and make me less emotionally resilient. Some women suffer very badly with their cycles – my poor sister, for example, gets a two-day migraine every month.
So, gentlemen, please understand that we may actually be in a considerable amount of pain at that time of month, and no one is at his or her best when suffering.
And, ladies, we should take responsibility for managing our pain levels and our state of mind as much as possible. It’s easy to forget to do this while also managing life/work/family, but just saying to our long-suffering spouse, “Sorry, honey, it’s just my period. I’m not coping very well right now — please help me get a few hours of quiet time” goes a long way toward defusing possible fights and dispelling the stereotypes that we are slaves to our hormones, or (much worse) that we use them as an excuse for acting like Bitches from Hell.
I think a lot of men really don’t know that. They have a vague idea that there’s some discomfort, and they know there’s something mysteriously hormonal going on, and they “KNOW” that’s no big deal, so they figure all the “hysterics” is just lack of self-control. “Get over it!”
The fact is, some women have a horrible time for several days or more, every month.
Under those circumstances, even the best will not be at their best. Tempers will be short. That is true for men who are in chronic pain – it should not be expected that women will be otherwise.
And, the fact is, some women just need to exercise some self control and remember that their problem is their problem and should be kept to themselves.
One might even be tempted to suggest there’s a spectrum of biological difficulty (for lack of a better word) AND a spectrum of responsible behavior in the presence of that difficulty. On one end you might have women who experience a few twinges and some minor inconveniences, and yet act as if the world has come to an end AND IT’S ALL HIS FAULT, and there are others who probably should see a doctor but bear it with barely a frown to the outside world.
And, in our modern day, I would put my money on the majority being somewhere in the middle of the difficulty curve (because that’s a function of biology) and somewhere on the irresponsible “poor me” side of the bell curve for responsible behavior (because that’s a choice and we have become a selfish and irresponsible society).
Wow. It’s hard to believe you’ve “answered” Belladonna’s points in such a smug, thoroughly immature manner. I hope you know it only serves to REINFORCE what she said. I can only infer that you’ve unfortunately been entangled at some point w/a woman who somehow was a walking embodiment of every bad female bhvr., and I’m so sorry. I hope it doesn’t cause affront if I offer my sympathy? No one who puts him/herself out there to be available for loving relationships ever escapes hurt. It’s part of the human condition, I think given to us to make us more compassionate.
1. I’ve NEVER cried in front of ANYbody for “tactical reasons”, ditto any of my close female friends. Didn’t you read the list Belladonna gave for reasons women tear up? If that’s what one FEELS, how does one hold it in or completely stop it w/o becoming colder & yet more unfeminine? Men compartmentalize more than women. That’s just a fact. I’m not suggesting men need to emotionally break down & become “Weeping Willies”, but I do believe men pay a very steep price for the incredibly insensitive perception — perpetrated by other MEN — that “real men don’t cry”. Yes, they do. Not often, but if they have hearts they pay attention to occasionally … yes, they do.
2. Yeah, women usually do want something when she say’s “let’s talk” — like really being listened to! It seems to us many times that after we’re said ____ 100+ times and you haven’t responded, either you don’t care or are being disrespectful and dismissing what we say simply b/c we’re women. Truly, women don’t like or want to nag, but here’s where it comes from. If you have a compelling reason for not paying attention to _____, we’ll hear you out. If it’s just laziness or you really don’t care about something important to us, yes, we’re gonna be upset. You would be too. And you don’t get to decide what’s important to other people of either sex.
Btw, the cleavage issue? We dress that way b/c we do want you to look, but not shamelessly ogle unceasingly, esp. during conversation. Breasts are lovely things to look at, hold, fondle, etc. But they’re NEVER going to answer, so making eye contact is a GOOD thing.
3 & 4. If you never learn to discuss her problems, you’re missing at least half the person. How do THEY solve problems & arrive at solutions? What if we are looking for sympathy — can you actually say you love someone if you willingly withhold what you know they need emotionally? Disclaimer: I fully realize this is dangerous territory, b/c as I’ve heard said (and at least partially believe) women have sex only when they’re emotionally involved; men have sex to become emotionally involved.
5. There are many very good reasons we don’t just TELL you what we enjoy. One, isn’t there a great deal of fun to be had by experimenting? Two, I’m sorry, but men have such fragile egos many can’t bear to be told “what to do”, even when it’s couched in the “I enjoy ____” language; it’s as if we’re impugning your entire manhood. A gray area is that most women are taught, even today, that “good girls” just don’t talk that way or about “it”, which makes it complicated expressing what we like.
6. ** Mom doesn’t live with me. My wife does. See how easily we tell the difference? ** No, this doesn’t make it clear AT ALL. It seems you swapped mom for wife, except the wife is a live-in with whom you can have sex. From this snarky sentence, you’ve told us you really haven’t grown up, making even men reading this who agree w/you more than slightly uneasy. Men are NEVER going to get the completely unconditional, uncritical love from wives that their moms provided. And even moms don’t totally do that, if they want to raise good kids. Cause & effect and responsibility, doncha know?
7. Women, the weaker sex? If we’re talking only upper body strength, o.k. Otherwise, when was the last time you rose from childbirth? If men had kids, the human race would’ve petered out a long time ago.
Gallantry is still alive & well, as evidenced by real ladies & gentlemen. In short, those more concerned with the happiness and well-being of others than so wrapped in their own stuff to even acknowledge there ARE others. And women don’t freeze out others unless/until they’ve done something specific to harm us or those we love, not b/c of some nebulous thing that may or may not be true.
8. Men are, if anything, more vain than women. The reason all we get is “fine” when asking how your day went is b/c of some weird man rule about not exposing feelings. So you go stomping around all proud of yourselves for not breaking the male code of silence, and we’re left wondering just how bad the day really was, and how long we’ll have to guess. So many times it seems the worse the day, week, whatever, the worse WE’RE treated and have no idea what we’ve done to provoke you when it wasn’t us to begin with — but we sure catch the brunt of the repressed anger, hurt, etc.
If you continue to treat women as if their differences are weaknesses instead of just part of half of humankind, you will end up a mean, lonely old man. I wouldn’t wish that for anyone, including you.
“Women, the weaker sex? If we’re talking only upper body strength, o.k. Otherwise, when was the last time you rose from childbirth? If men had kids, the human race would’ve petered out a long time ago. ”
Ever get the realization that if you have a woman in your life you are instinctually driven to attack, kill, and perhaps even die for their safety?
Every realize that you are the soldier ant in service to the colony (human race) which values women over men by design?
Ever look at a history and notice the countless men who sacrificed for their people?
You have children. Congrats. We are hide bound to bleed for you and other women and children by instinct.
From the very beginning it was like this.
Carn, my bad, I was orig. responding to #8, FWP. Somehow I ended up totally out-of-sinc with everything/everybody.
Of COURSE I get the point that men are driven to protect childbearers; but that’s less about the *women* and more about their OWN genes — same reason that in a lion pride the males will kill cubs not their own offspring. Then there’s a very interesting article about why fighter pilots have more girl than boy babies.
Women too have sacrificed greatly for their people, but they’re a lot less visible in history unless they were married to a man who also did great things (w/the exception of some saints).
Yes, it’s always been like this. However. When men go to war, there’s the possibility they might die. For many yrs., it was WAY more so for women in childbirth. Even w/the advances in tech., 2-3 women per day in the USA die giving birth (that’s not counting those that don’t make it that far). To the best of my knowledge & research, our current casualties in the “War on Terror” are a bit under 5K since 2001. That figures out to 1.25 deaths per day (not *all* male, but mostly). And no, I don’t discount that — my son’s a non-com who’s been in both Iraq & Afghanistan. Think of the battle weariness and frankly American outrage over service members deaths; where’s the similar anger over women dying giving birth? B/c it’s “always been so”?
I guess what I’m saying is BOTH sexes have fears to face, and axes to grind. That doesn’t make EITHER ONE right, good, wrong, bad. But it does seem women’s contributions have been taken for granted, simply b/c we’re women.
So somehow I’m an awful person b/c I know biology? Does that mean I don’t love or care about men? NO! It means I understand how the natural world works.
Sailor, I’m glad I don’t know YOU. You are willing to dismiss what is absolutely KNOWN in the biological world, and putting it onto ME (as a woman) as being just downright awful & nasty. Sorry dude, but it’s NOT “all about the woman” — it’s about saving & preserving the male-passed-along genes, as it is with ALL LIVING CREATURES. Now, if it HAPPENS that also means saving the women (who are prob. *carrying* those genes), well, that becomes a diff. story, but still not very endowed w/chivalry.
Btw, I’m d@mn glad I don’t know you either — a misogynistic male who tries to defend his few good actions by telling himself it’s for the woman, when biologically it’s for HIMSELF. Sheesh, and you’re a good catch HOW ?!?!
You do many valid points. F.W.P. also.
I think the disagreement in his point 1) regarding tactical reasons to cry is more cultural. Well, I grew up in a latinamerican environment and could see those tactical girl tears by myself, so I think he has a point. The problem is how generalizable is it? Of course, living in a completely different environment now, I realized it was a cultural mindset, not a “woman thing”.
His observation of “solution oriented” versus “sympathy oriented” talks is spot on, as far as the facts are concerned. It’s my principal feature too: everytime I hear my girls say they have a problem, I go to the brain storming mode automatically. Aside from facts, the observation is useful to find a common solution for the involved parts. F.W.P. particular solution was: “I will be your solution guy”. I’m sure many other couples will find other solutions.
You’re totally right regarding the mom vs. wife/girlfriend issue and also regarding gallantry, women force etc.
But you are wrong in your point 8 ) regarding “some weird male rule” about not exposing feelings. It’s not a “rule” and is not weird. Men simply consider feelings are feedbacks/consequences and not causes/guide lines, so we don’t pay attention to it. It’s a feature -not a bug, since we go automatically to problem-solving mode, we also do in it cold-blood style. Again, this is a fact and, from there, each couple can find a solution.
Dear X,
Thank you for rushing in trying to save my bacon! You did a marvelous job, and pls. allow me to commend you for understanding what I was *trying* to say (but didn’t do such a hot job in certain areas). I would disagree, however, w/your paragraph:
** But you are wrong in your point 8 ) regarding “some weird male rule” about not exposing feelings. It’s not a “rule” and is not weird. Men simply consider feelings are feedbacks/consequences and not causes/guide lines, so we don’t pay attention to it. It’s a feature -not a bug, since we go automatically to problem-solving mode, we also do in it cold-blood style. **
Yes, it IS a rule. I saw it during my mom’s recent funeral. Both my sons have been military, both were pallbearers, and only my dad was ‘allowed’ to cry — although my sons’ grammy was a HUGE part of their lives, and they love her deeply. Yeah, that WAS kinda weird. If you love someone that much, how can you not show how sad you are they’re gone? And I know men consider showing emotions as a weakness that can be attacked by other males, therefore making them <. It may be a feature instead of a bug, but most women will always see that as kinda weird.
But having said that — as you said, neither the female/male way is right/wrong. It's up to each couple to find a way thru the forest that works for them. I just thank G*d everyday I've finally found a man who actually does love me for me, not some idealized version. We both have smelly feet, stinky farts, warts 'n all — we're ALL bozos on this bus. But I wouldn't trade him for all the proverbial tea in China!
“If you love someone that much, how can you not show how sad you are they’re gone?”
The person you love is gone. Who are you showing? THAT is tactical crying.
I’m aware of a popular saying that goes like “men don’t cry”, “boys don’t cry” or something like that. AFAIK, everyone is born already breaking the rule
Seriously, what are you saying, that men don’t cry or don’t cry in front of you?
Many of us do, but why should we do it in front of people? And, if we don’t show it, why do you assume is because there is a rule about not showing it? Don’t you think it can be just because we consider too intimate a thing so we don’t feel like showing it?
Again, I’m sure there will be exceptions to everything. At least, in my case, my tears are my bussiness, why should someone else be involved? I don’t consider it a weakness, but I do consider it a nuisance, a load. Therefore, I have to carry my own cross/load/nuisance; I don’t think is fair or good to lay it on someone else, no matter how well intentioned they can be, my tears are my only exclusive bussiness. So, just have a look again to the cases you know, it could be different than you think.
In days of tragedy, we may choose to be strong because we may be expecting to provide the shoulders for the tears of our women and our girls, and feel compelled to be extraordinarily strong in a extraordinary situation. It doesn’t have to do with weird rules, IMO.
yeah— what she said!
and Carn, that’s why we respect you guys. And love you. and have kids with you. and practice having kids with you. you know, practice makes perfect? lots and lots of practice?
this isn’t a war piece. It’s a make understanding piece. one of the big happies of my life was getting married- I just had to pay attention to one guy, instead of the amorphous haze of date-guys. And I didn’t have to pay attention to whiney guy advice or guy articles in women’s magazines, anymore. B/c those guys were up in NYC, and I was safely at home with my favorite guy. Two entirely different things. thank goodness.
“this isn’t a war piece.”
My comment wasn’t strictly about wartime.
Man is The Defender, Killer, Provider, Handyman, Strong Arm, Fixer, Hunter, and Scout.
It’s everywhere. At all times.
When a tornado bore down on Joplin, MO, Don Lansaw covered his wife’s body with his own to save her from the flying debris. In doing so, he was punctured in the back and died saving her life.
This man was the strong arm and protector when his wife needed him and while he wanted to live I’d be cash that he didn’t mind dying to preserve her life.
The protective instincts of women can be very strong as well. When a tornado hit Indiana a couple weeks ago, one mother shielded her children with her body. Heavy debris fell on her and she lost both of her legs. She is also a hero. Admittedly, women are much more likely to do this to protect their children than their husband but courage is courage and should be respected.
Never said otherwise but men are more regular about it and apply it more often.
Women do it over children. Men do it over mates and children and friends and family too at times.
Me: Here are the facts. Wife: He said, She said, He said, She said…… As I sit biting my tongue:-) My career was in a male dominated field(Air Traffic Control) that requires quick decision making and a lot of self confidence. My wife has always said that my female co-workers thought and acted a lot like men. They may not start out that way but they change as they train.
Fun article. These are very good points and I enjoyed reading it.
Wow. Looks like some of this touched some nerves out there. Unfortunately, many of you men went on to prove Belladonna’s points, mainly by using her article to turn the focus back to your own special form of benign narcissism. This article was about mens’ mistakes.Of course, it necessarily spend a lot of time on the shortcomings of MEN. It was also very funny. Women get accused constantly of being humorless hags who take the slightest joke too seriously. So, I’d say to you gents what men tend to say to us, “hey, lighten up, already.”
My husband apparently found this funny because he sent it to me. He also probably recognized himself in some of these examples. Amazingly, his first impulse was to share it with be rather than take offense. That’s what makes him a great husband. I don’t expect him to completely understand me. I just expect him to be interested in trying. For every gruelingly tedious shopping trip some poor husband gets roped into, there is an equally unbearable athletic event or dinner with annoying relatives that a wife endures–not because she’s interested in THEM but because she is interested in YOU. You should want to do the same.
Thought the article was outstanding! The humorous bent of it seems to be lost on quite a few of my male counterparts here in the comments.
From personal experience in my 26 year relationship, I had a lot of “been there, done that” moments reading the column. Fortunately for me, (1)I learned quickly, and (2) there was enough respect between the two of us we were able to ride out the rough periods.
To me, the respect part is critical. Respecting the different wirings and adjusting to each other’s foibles in order to form a single cohesive unit is challenging, but well worth it in the end.
What a wonderful reminder of how to act and behave around all women. Necessary annual reading by any man who wants to get along in this World. Whether as spouse, son, leader or any other situation where the opposite sexes interact.
Bravo Belladonna, you’ve hit another one out of the proverbial park!!!
You can be honest – but you better be as quick on your feet as zebra in a race with a hungry lion.
My husband uses, “I like your red one better”, which works great unless the red one also isn’t fitting or is not an option, then I have to try very, very, very, VERY hard to say, “okay, thanks”. But he’s not out of the woods yet, as I will inevitably repeat the process with another, different shirt. My husband, being a smart man, always says option number 2 looks great, but I can see him looking for an exit as he does it, knowing full well that his level of enthusiam is being measured in much the same way that a heroin addict will measure a dose – too much or too little will cause panic.
As for this comment by jd above, “My Gosh, you look so tiny in that monstrous outfit.” that is brilliant! Absolutely brilliant. All men should take note.
Funny article – funny because it is just so true
Asking if something makes you look fat is a trap. The man has two choices, he can fib, downplay or otherwise make himself look weak and lose your respect, or he can be witty, truthful, and or strong and gain respect.
Thats all there is to it. Its a game women do (unconsciously) to test the quality of their mate.
I give you a ten minute standing ovation.
That was just terrific.
Thanks for sharing your talent and insight with the world.
WOW! I was surprised by some of the comments made by a few of the men. I thought this was a great article and if I had been aware of these points, I might have spent less time in the doghouse during the past 38 years of our marriage. Hopefully, I’ll engrave these points in my mind and spend only a little time in the dog house during our next 38 years.
Dear George,
Your response brought tears to my eyes. You’re a man who DOES “get it”, and wants to hang in there b/c he loves his wife, and KNOWS she loves him. Here’s hoping you both get that next 38 yrs.! (btw, my folks almost made 60, but mom passed away a few mos. shy — dad was devastated then, and still is almost 2 yrs. later)
I learned much to my pain and suffering that there is no such thing as a polite and deserved compliment to a woman not married to you. A well-received compliment can be turned into a sexual harrassment charge on a whim by any woman who even hears about it.
And there is no statute of limitations on when it can be used against you. I think there ought to be a law requiring women to read men their Miranda Rights upon entering a room each day; “Anything you say (think, see or hear) can and will be used against you in a court of law.”
I have also become discouraged by the experience of holding doors for women. It is rare these days for a woman to thank you for the effort and time involved. Most walk past you as if the door was automatic and opened itself – we simply don’t exist.
I was raised a gentleman and it is disheartening to live in a world where there are so few ladies and the rest refuse to offer the least bit of common courtesy. When I pass there will be darn few gentlemen left in the world and few women will care.
** I was raised a gentleman and it is disheartening to live in a world where there are so few ladies and the rest refuse to offer the least bit of common courtesy. When I pass there will be darn few gentlemen left in the world and few women will care. **
Oh, MJ, PLEASE don’t be so negative! I taught my sons right, and while they might not rush to put their cloak down in front of Q.E. II, they ARE very noble & gallant. In fact, youngest son met & married the love of his life at 20. He’s in the army, and was living in the barracks at a lg. base. There were some girls celebrating a bachelorette party. Some tacky louse told my son & his buddy that he was gonna hang around until he could ‘nail’ one of them. So son & buddy stuck w/the gals like glue to foil this nasty dirtbag’s plan. He ended up talking w/his now-wife almost all night, lying on a bed (yes, that’s been confirmed by the other girls, one of whom didn’t know me from Adam
I personally LOVE men, but consider myself enough of a (gasp/on!) feminist that I don’t EXPECT a man to open a door for me, but will certainly thank him if he does. And hey — good manners say if you’re closest to a door, and someone comes staggering up carrying a lrg. load, ANYone will open the door for them. And guys, PLS. don’t make a big deal in a horribly crowded elevator by trying to make women get off first. If they’re in the front, sure, great. But don’t crush everyone else trying to be ‘nice’. There’s a diff bwtwn being nicely mannered and ignoring reality. Most gentlewomen won’t be offended if a real gentleman goes first if it’s in the ‘flow’ of traffic.
I can’t imagine a time when real … well, does “gentlepersons” cover it? don’t exist. I think there will *always* be folks who have good manners. I know it doesn’t seem like it right now, but SOME people are raising good kids. I didn’t even think I did, until they went out on their own. Now I know they actually DID listen to me, and understand to put their best foot forward. And while that smoothes the road for everyday work comm., it’s even MORE imprnt for interpersonal comm. bwtwn spouses!
Fun stuff and great pics to accompany it.
# 8 was my least favorite. It was clear enough, but it is that common? Men are that way?
Listeners ask and then listen, but I never found (from my experience asking), that the woman will carry on too long or permanently. Is the opposite different?
Self-centeredness WILL reveal itself eventually, from the “texted” argument where one side gets a surprise “telling off” from a distance (a weakie but a favorite), to more frequent signs of arrogance that still did not leap out of a cave – they were visible on Day 1.
Thanks, Belladonna, for a throughly enjoyable article! I’ll smile a few days with this one plus the comments & tips from posters.
On those rare occasions when a man cries you know it’s for real. Not so for women. What men come to understand about women is that womens’ tears relate to genuine grief about as closely as their declarations of love relate to genuine love. There is no there there. Or to be more accurate a woman’s there is an ever shifting ever dissolving ever cried over or declared there that so quickly evaporates that there might as well be no there there at all.
Heh. My girlfriend of almost 3 years is the worse when it comes to going on and on about random subjects. She’ll be talking to me without ever pausing to get any input from me and I’ll just walk off and come back without her ever knowing… Same thing with phone calls, holy crap. Her talking about nothing for hours with me at light speed drives me nuts. She’s lucky she’s pretty…
When I married 44 years ago, the rabbi said to my husband, “Remember, God counts a woman’s tears.” Sadly, my husband didn’t heed that counsel; but there would be no unhappy marriages if husbands did.
Correction. There would be no unhappy wives. Husbands, not so much.
** Correction. There would be no unhappy wives. Husbands, not so much. **
So what are you saying? G*d does NOT count women’s tears? Or that they mean nothing? Do you think all women are simply waterworks that turn on/off at a whim’s notice? I’m here to tell you that’s pure B.S. Men pretty much *still* have the advantages in our society, so why would you discount women’s tears? It’s not even so much that it makes me angry, just sad.
God counts women’s tears but men are on their own.
Women cry to manipulate men. My wife used to cry when she didn’t get her way. I told her that I couldn’t deal with her when she was so upset, told her to talk to me when she’d calmed down, and WALKED AWAY.
After doing that a couple of times the waterworks dried up. Later I overheard her saying to my sister in law, “My tears don’t work on him.”
QED.
Howdy, L.B.! Pretty sure I’ve seen you around somewhere — Hot Air? Ace’s place? LGF, back in the day, before it went off the rails? Good to see you, anyhow.
Some women cry to manipulate men. Not all women do. IMHO, whether or not a woman cries to manipulate men probably has a great deal to do with how well crying worked on Mommy and Daddy when she was a little girl.
Granted that I’m only one data point, but: My mother (an admirable woman, and a USMC WWII veteran, whom I love dearly — don’t get me wrong!) used to tell me I was “hypersensitive” when I cried as a child. Oh, how I hated that… so now I hate to be seen crying by anyone whose opinion I value (#1 on that list being my husband). I’m also one of the very few female engineers in my shop, so I wear khaki pants and polo shirts and try not to behave in stereotypically feminine ways at work, lest I not be taken seriously as a professional.
That said, I do cry when grieving. Our dear old cat just died, and both my husband and I wept bucketfuls. Somehow it worked out that we took turns at it. When one cried, the other soothed. I think that’s how it’s supposed to be in a good marriage — each spouse has the other’s back. I am truly sorry you did not have that experience.
Hi ya! Thanks for noticing.
Yep, both women (and men!) cry for truly legitimate reasons. But in the context I gave, a woman trying to get something from a man, the crying is almost always manipulative because she can’t get what she wants by any other method the man will respond to and crying is the trump card.
Wasn’t Proust a man?
#5-8 are great. The first four would be more appropriate when explaining how to deal with a child.
I think it is important for both men and women to understand where that line is, at least roughly, and show enough respect to each other, in whatever ways are appropriate, to strive to stay on the right side of that line.
Also, men who try to be there for a woman, in the way a girlfriend would be, often find that women stop seeing them as men. Again, there’s a fine line, but the man who crosses it one too many times may find himself being perceived like a girlfriend, and not a lover. Women, like men, can end up repulsed by the very things they think they want.
Interesting article, though.
I suppose it’s good advice to listen to a woman’s problem without trying to interrupt her to solve it.
But when she’s done going on about it, you’d damn’ well better fix it.
Great, you’ve identified all the ways women have become insufferable to men. Step two is to stop blaming men and start becoming worth doing those things for you again. We’ve stopped because there is no upside (sex is no longer enough collateral for this deficit) and as long as women use their flaws as a causus belli to beat men over the head it’s clear there won’t be any improvement for the foreseeable future.
Wow, I thought I was the only one. I have (who knew?) the ability to pick & know what’s too much or too little. I follow her around 30′ behind in case God forbid a friend of hers sees her with her father. She stands in the doorway of the shop showing me the choices and I nod almost imperceptibly when I think it’s right. To talk I have to ring. I love it. All I’m trying to say is that if this is the limit of teenage madness and there’s no drugs then I’m a happy father who is overjoyed to freeze his tuchas off standing outside teenage dress shops.
What a sweetie-pie! Your daughter is so lucky to have you as her father!
My brother has to help me get dressed, when I’m trying for something other than sweatpants! I sew, but I have to ask the designer at the fabric store – a guy- to help me find colors and fabrics. He does this for my sons, too, when they want to find the right colors for their fleece jackets and tee-shirts.
Spouse helps the little girl color design her clothes, too. I’d dress her in pink and flowers. He pointed out that she has blue eyes, and her dress ought to match her eyes, to amplify the effect. I was grouchy the whole time I made her most spectacular Easter dress- ruffled tiers of blue fabric print- I wanted pink and green,like the pattern. Three years in, she can still wear it, and she’s still beautiful. She had pictures made while wearing the dress, and we had to put her name on the photos electronically, b/c it looked like an advertisement, not a Wal-mart photo session. I’m glad he can notice and recommend fabrics.
I wear black and white. I wouldn’t want my kids to dress like me. I’m glad they have their dad for color-coordination and styling advice.
Sorry. This will make *women* more attracted to them.
Joe wins the thread.
This reminds me that the day my wife of 21 years left me to raise the children by myself was the Best Damn Day Of My Life Ever. There are too many good books to read and good scotch to drink to deal with that nonsense.
I’m really glad you said that about Roth and Bellow. I thought it was only me………
Not just you, clarice…
“Does this make me look fat?”
I don’t know. Do you think it would make ME look fat?
So you’re saying you do think it would make me look fat! Some wife you are.
Hear, hear, beth!
Thank you!
The best advice I could have been given as a young man, regarding my choice of associations both male and female, would have been, “There are worse things than being alone. If you forget that fact, you will find out firsthand what some of them are.”
I didn’t get that advice, and I found out firsthand.
I got married for the first time at 38, am still married to the same great woman, and I’m very glad I didn’t do it earlier. Perhaps I could have avoided some of the lessons I had to learn the hard way first, but given that I had to learn them, I’m glad I did.
Also, what I take away from this article is that women don’t know what they want, and if they find a man that “does” know what he wants, they will surgically extract his will to live from him, turning him into a Cyberman.
Better off buying whiskey and hookers. You’ll probably live longer.
One small point of disagreement: When a man is left-handed, all bets are off when it comes to following your normally sensible rules of verbal engagement.
The corpus callosum is 11% larger in left-handers than in right-handers: The The corpus callosum integrates the activities between the right and left brain. Women have a larger corpus callosum because of this integration between the right (emotions) and the left (logic) parts of the brain. So, left-handed men are connected feelings, expressive of their own, and much more verbal.
When I dated, all my long-term relationships were left handed. I am married to a left-handed man. There is a reason it is I who am the one known as the “strong, silent” type. Each successful relationship much have a talker and a listener. For me, the trick is to know when to transition to “male” role.
At times, I do envy friends who have the simplicity of a relationship with a right-handed man.
But, my husband has dimples and a kind heart, so I muddle on! Thanks for trying to smooth the way between the genders.
“Each successful relationship much have a talker and a listener.”
I disagree. A successful relationship must have two people capable of doing both roles, or one person willing to give up their happiness for the benefit of someone who simply can’t be a grown up in the relationship.
Cause, y’know, “successful relationships” usually amount to what one side or both are willing to put up with for the perceived benefit. We’re all a bundle of barely contained neuroses on a good day, it’s just that most of the ones that people have are harmless or easily avoidable. Men seem to be better at not letting their neurotic thoughts guide their lives, and are seemingly more willing to put up with their partners’ neuroses.
As a man, I’m sure you’ll hear about everything that’s wrong with you as a person in good time.
Hey, False God: You obviously do have trouble with communicating with women. You obviously did not continue reading my comment about “transitioning”. Therefore, you agree.
Getting all the data before rushing to offer an opinion is a very valuable trait.
Well, a bigger point is that neither talking nor listening are “male”/”female” roles. And they’re not roles. Talker and listener change during conversations quite often, unless you’re one of those people that think your story is so important that you can be interrupted by questions about it.
Which is conceivable. I’ve met people like that. A good story involves the listener, rather than being a simple bitch session where you expect the listener to mutter “Ok.” every once in a while, all while you rant. Which is conceivable. I’ve met people like that, too. I’ve also done it before, but usually when I didn’t have the emotional capacity to avoid doing it. I make sure that the “listener” knows before hand, and actually wants to try and help after listening.
I also don’t hold it against them if they don’t want to listen; because, hey, who really wants to listen to you whine about all the shit that happens at work/school/life, usually because you’re too weak to do something to fix it in the long term?
A whole lot of work and 99% of the time not worth the reward. No wonder men die so much sooner than women. I’ll be begging for death if I ever have to navigate this maze of wants and needs and demands again. Unless you are a super model sex machine your not worth it anymore. I’ll pass.
You know the old joke right?
Why do men die, on average, 7 years sooner then women?
Because they want to.
And when my grandpa passed, after a while someone asked grandma if she’d consider marrying again. My sainted grandma, who NEVER, EVER cussed, said, “Not if he had golden hairs in his butt!” True story, real quote. It’s a 2-way street, fool.
It’s just a joke friend.
Unclench…
So what you’re saying is that women are like the English sports car I had in the 80′s. The operators manual was in what on the surface seemed like a common language but was in fact full of words that didn’t mean what I thought they meant. Along with the 3 legal sized pages of things to fix, watch and fiddle with.
Women=English sports cars…now it all makes sense.
Hmmm. There’s a lot of truth in that analogy. English sports cars were high maintenance, and lot of fun.
Some of them were worth it.
After about two years I decided I had chosen poorly…but man, when it was fun it was really, really fun.
Carly Simon!
I #@$*! hate Carly Simon!
I like your articles Belladonna, I do, but this one leaves me cold, sorry. I guess I’m just an insensitive man. Let’s review, shall we?
You begin with a fine, well known principle, men and women are as different as night and day, or whatever other analogy of different you chose to use, and there have been many.
Then you go on to explain why it is incumbent on the man to bend, spin, fold, and mutilate our nature to be more accommodating to your nature. As Carlin said once, apparently you sh** is stuff and our stuff is sh**. Mostly this case is made that doing so will make you more sexually available. This only applies to husbands, as I’ve seen many of you in my lifetime throw your legs open for some hot dude at the bar, club, party, what have you, and then lament it the next day, maybe to a male friend that will listen intently, because he likes you, the way you only wish with that guy your having sex with would. Don’t think these contradictions are lost on us. And please, don’t get indignant and tell me this is rare. It most assuredly is not rare.
I once had a conversation with a female friend, whom I adore, and we discussed her past, of which I was well aware. She was now happily married and pregnant with her second child. She said, “We all have to go through our bad boy phase.” I said, “Do you?” “Do you realize how much damage you do to those men that aren’t bad boys? Those who view this behavior, and think this is how women want to be treated.” I still, to this day, think the point was lost on her.
Let’s delve further. Belladonna says: After you’ve patiently listened to a tearful recitation of how just one insensitive lout could have been even more exasperating than a stadium full of vuvuzela-blowing fans, what do you do next?
Is, “grow the hell up” a reasonable response? I thought not. Do you know how many insensitive louts I have to deal with on a regular basis? Stoically I push aside my desire to punch someone in the face so I can continue to feed my family, only to come home to hear a tearful recitation and 20 minute exposition about some lout that cause you grief, then I have to summon the fortitude to put aside my instinctual reaction, so I can painfully force myself to behave as if I care, so that you can feel better about yourself? And you call us narcissists? All that extra effort so that maybe, possibly, if the stars are aligned, we can retire to bedroom.
If you’re not my mother, then I’m not your psychiatrist, nor am I your employee that you can fill my days off with pre-written lists of things you’d like to see accomplished –for the house, of course. Firstly, my mother was making me do my own laundry at 12. I love her dearly, I cannot express that enough, but my mother was truly about preparing me for adulthood, not mouthing the platitudes, all the while being my housekeeper. She worked full time and was not about to spend her off time pampering me. My brother and I had chores, lots of them. Likewise, I don’t expect my wife to act that way. I’m more than happy to help out around the house, but if it starts becoming underappreciated, and expected, well, I have some expectations of my own. Is marriage a partnership, or am I just around to bolster your fragile ego and increase your social status by beautifying the home?
I’m sure this will be viewed as a misogynistic rant, but I don’t care.
Did every angry guy online get the same email? You’re right up there with Porretto for intolerance of anything but a woman rolling over for you.
And you think that you’re the only one who works hard all day and deals with louts? We women do too, plus we buy and cook your food, do the dishes afterwards, mi=op ans sweep the floors, dus and keep things tidy, keep the children clean and happy, deal with our aging parents, your aging parents and have to do it wearing make-up and looking pert.
If you can’t have a mature, loving relationship without considering yourself some kind of “psychiatrist” or a weenie by listening empathically, then either you’re with the wrong woman or, and this is how I’d bet, she’s with the wrong man. She’s with a man so nasty, so burned out, so jaundiced, and so pathetic that he can’t even read an advice column without frothing at the mouth.
Why don’t you just buy yourself a punching bag and get out your rage that way? You give all guys a bad name. And that name is creep.
I hope you’re not really married because I feel for any woman within a square mile of you and your grousing.
And one last thing: grow up, which you’re going have to do a lot before any woman, young, old, sexy, or haggy would put up with your anger.
Sheesh.
Beat me to it.
There is a legitimate argument that guys need to know how to defend themselves from the cunning and manipulative. But a lot of what I’m seeing here is an unwillingness to understand the terrain before crossing it. It’s a fine article; “honi soit qui mal y pense.”
Men who are happily married or who love their wives and want to have better marriages give a thumbs up to this article.
The majority, who are either divorced (luckily for their ex-wives) or miserable with their wives, are piling on, misreading clear writing and generally treating this article as an out-house.
It’s their loss. Glad you agree, Russ.
Wrong, we have happy marriages because we blow off your immature emotionalism as not worth fighting over and keep our mouths shut.
I don’t thumbs up yet another article about how men should cater to womens inability to handle life emotionally.
The man supports his family, so no, he doesn’t need to grow up.
And you know for a fact that his wife doesn’t work, too, and out-earn him and that’s why he’s so pissed off?
Supporting his family is the SOLE REASON you attribute grown-up status to this nasty male? So if he had no family dragging him down he’d be living in a van down by the river? Somehow I doubt it. He’d prob. have the same job in the same place where he is now. How AWFUL he must contribute to running the house where his KIDS live. He even b!tches about having a “honey-do” list — you know, those things women *admit* men do better — to help make their home nicer to live in? Yeah, wow, that’s REAL mature. He goes so far as to suggest he does anything AT ALL simply to get sex. If that’s the case he’s no better than an orangutan, and much less lovely. He should go live in a cave at the top of windswept mtn. range and not foist himself on regular, normal people who really want to have a good, loving relationship with a long-term partner.
I’m with BellaDonna about how to respond to a complaint about, say, loud horns at a game. My wife (loving and patient she is) finally taught me that, when she told me about a problem she had faced, she wasn’t usually asking me to solve it or even address it as a problem-to-be-solved. What she wanted was to be heard, to have her emotions about the issue resonate with me. Of course, you can say whatever you want to your wife, or girlfriend, or both. But if you want to build a strong and lasting relationship, listen to BellaDonna on this one. She is offering some helpful advice.
@ Mary in LA,
Thank you. Been happily married for 11 years, and first time I’ve ever seen this thought expressed succently enough to sink into my thick skull. Will definitely be more aware when my wife asks the equivalent question.
Dear midnight, thank you so much for the compliment! You’re very kind. I wish you and your wife many, many years of happiness together.
that was an amazing essay. It’s exactly true and right. I hope you keep writing in. I want to send it to my husband, too. B/c it really is what’s going through my head, when I’m near tears on shopping. I don’t feel pretty most of the time. I feel tired and poor and huddled and kind of stunned.
Dear ari, thank you, too, for the kind words! Please feel free to share my post with your husband if you’d like to. I do rather wish we had an “edit” function here, though: Going back over my post, I see a couple of places where I could have expressed myself better, and one significant error in the second paragraph — “want to make you” should, of course, be “make you want to”. I’m pretty sure that clothes can’t want anything.
I hear you about the brown bras. Women with darker skin and warm skin tones look stunningly beautiful in brown lingerie. (Vicky’s Secret knows this and picks their catalog models accordingly.) Those of us whose heritage has given us skin the approximate color of library paste, not so much.
#1: It seems that you want men to be like Dr. Phil.
#2: A-D: What’s with this Dr. Phil worship, anyways? E: Point taken. F: Tough beans. G: Men don’t care about these types of things. Men can’t tell you these things because they don’t notice them. H: Again, tough beans.
#3: Dr. Phil really pisses me off.
#4: Welcome to Real Life, where every opportunity is the perfect opportunity. Why not try a Clintonian ploy? It worked great for him, which means……….women liked it.
#5: Who cares?
#6: I don’t understand why you mention this, since most men don’t suffer from an Oedipal complex.
#7: What have you done lately to deserve gallantry? Make me dinner every night, and I’ll think about it.
#8: Men don’t care about your hobbies, concerns, etc.
OMG, Matt, you are 1 of those men women will ALWAYS avoid like the plague. It’s always all about YOU, YOU, and … YOU. If I didn’t know better, I’d think you’re the Matt my husband works with, 30+ and still single, w/known mental problems. Know what? Women sense this kind of thing too, so even with you trashing them (hmmm…wonder why?), they STILL know you & your kind, and leave you strictly alone. Why don’t you get happy YOURSELF, instead of expecting a woman to make you that way?
I wouldn’t want you as a friend. I can’t imagine what sane woman would want to be your wife.
There are two kinds of women: Low maintenance, and high maintenance. The former generally enjoy the universal adoration, support and camaraderie of men. The latter make lists with seven bullet points as to the appropriate action to take when one is in tears.
We don’t regard crying women as uranium-enriched porcupines– mentally unstable high maintenance women, however…
You sound exactly like this guy: http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2012/03/22/man-gets-ticket-for-yelling-at-cat/
Just as sane and rational and ideal marriage-material as he is.
After reading all that….thank GOD I am single!
With all due respect, it’s not always wise to draw conclusions about a woman’s temperament based on her having reproduced or not. Not everyone who wants to have children is able to.
Sorry — above was meant as a reply to a comment by dat_truth_hurts.
OMG, sorry I clicked. Stop being men men so that women can be completely women.
The Chateau teaches us that taking advice on women from women is like checking to see if your gun is loaded by looking down the barrel and then squeezing the trigger.
Complaining is “feminine violence.”
Some women use constant feminine violence to beat up, demean, belittle, intimidate and put down their man in order to control him. It’s all about power. They’ll complain constantly until they break him… then keep complaining to keep him down.
You’re not much of a guy, are you? I can see why you’d want to be “Another Guy.” Who would wanna be you?
No so fast, Jack. He did say, “SOME women”, and it’s true of SOME women.
I love how when any man makes a post disagreeing with the author, they get a follow up reply from a woman telling them what a horrible person they are and how no woman would want anything to do with them. Sounds great to me. Are 16 years of dealing with that crap, there’s nothing that will make me deal with a woman of today again. When all the pluses and negatives are all added up, it just does make sense. It’s funny how everything in this article is what men should DO for women, while the corresponding article for women tells them what they should NOT DO for men. It’s a subtle but important distinction.
What would be your recipe for the perfect woman, if you don’t mind my asking and don’t mind the time to reply…
There are no perfect women (or men) but I would say that, at minimum, what i would want in a GOOD woman is one that is lovIng, gives respect, has realistic expectations for relationships, and will be faithful no matter what once that commitment is made. If they have these four things I would be happy to deal with the crying and emotions and drama and so on. Most GOOD men would be happy and willing to do all of these things listed in the article above if only they could be respected and free of the worry that suddenly this woman that have built a relationship with will decide to pull an “Eat, Pray, Love” on them and drop them.
Unfortunately, at my point in life, I come to the conclusion that any woman that is able to do these things is already in a relationship and what left available to me will simply not be worth the trouble of trying to build a relationship. What really does a woman have to offer me now? Sex? That gets cut off the moment you aren’t 100% in compliance with their wishes and expectations. What else do the offer that makes it worth the mood swings and drama and nagging and disrespect? There’s nothing. I can get companionship and respect from other men without having to deal with their daddy issues.
Thank you. Your list is short and reasonable. Surely your situation is not hopeless.
interesting observation about the difference between the articles
No it isn’t. It’s an interesting comparison between how much angrier men are than women, or at least how they feel freer to dump on women than women feel free to dump on men in comment areas.
As other comments have said, it’s the men who are married in good relationships or are unmarried in good relationships who’ve written to say this article helped them and the army of woman-haters who have only their “exes” to complain about who are mad as hell. They were mad as hell before this article was published. They’re mad as hell now. They’ll always be mad as hell. They give new meaning to “losers.”
Yes, you’re perfectly right. Yet, I just said I found something interesting in the original comment, and it was only that observation I found interesting. Nothing else of particular value in the original comment.
And you don’t sound angry at all /eyeroll
Sometime, when I was a teen, my grandma, who was in her late 60s, said: “Do you know who I met this morning?”
She then began by telling me about her back pains and high blood pressure, her troubles with the doctors, the noisy traffic in her street… And she went on and on. With time, she informed me about life in country in the early 20th century, about the friends she lost to the Spanish flu, about her deceased husband and some terrible winter in the mid 20s when even the bears came down from the mountains and roamed the streets of her village, about WW2, the Holocaust, which of her siblings survived and which didn’t make it, about my mom’s childhood…
You see: when she died in her early 90s I still didn’t know who she had met that morning. And I will never know it.
In my early childhood, I had a natural right to be told stories in bed before sleeping, as we didn’t own a TV set yet (it wasn’t in the USA).
Most of the times my mom or grandmother would tell the stories, but sometimes it was my father’s turn. Dad would tell me about the Trojan horse, Cesar’s campaigns and Napoleon’s, the Hundred Year War etc.
I can remember almost very information he gave me in his historical stories, but I’m obviously unable to retell the tales my mother and her mother told me.
Maybe they just told the same story over and over in many different ways. In a way, what they did was much more similar to singing than to telling or passing information and/or data,and thus, though the lyrics were lost, I can still remember the melodies.
When a woman “wants to talk to you”, forget about the words and pay attention to the melody: that’s where the real meaning is.
“Maybe they just told the same story over and over in many different ways. In a way, what they did was much more similar to singing than to telling or passing information and/or data,and thus, though the lyrics were lost, I can still remember the melodies.
When a woman “wants to talk to you”, forget about the words and pay attention to the melody: that’s where the real meaning is”
excellent advice
This article should be re-titled: “Why you’re better off single.” Honestly, when you realize that women really are this narcissistic, such that ALL of the “mistakes” men make about women involve “you don’t work hard enough for MEEEEEE,” you realize why men invented monasteries.
How long have you been in your anger management program? Or is the problem reading comprehension? Here’s a woman taking us behind the scenes, showing us what it feels like from their side of the divide, and all you can do is whine & COMPLAIN? No one is saying that women are going to want to talk ALL THE TIME, but you show no understanding of the nature of relationships. No wonder no woman would go near you. I’m a guy and I wouldn’t want a guy as selfish as you as a pal. Or a business partner. Or a brother-in-law. Get a grip, man.
About 30 years ago I heard James Dobson say, “Women are not lonely because their men don’t talk to them, they’re lonely because they don’t have other women to talk to.”
It is not without cause that many human societies that live in small groups have women’s houses and men’s houses. Some even have separate languages.
Thirty years have taught me the truth of that and one other thing – most marriages need a surrounding society that supports families to survive. Men and women are not enough alike to enjoy each other’s company ALL the time.
I found this article somewhat boring. It’s not like I don’t love women telling me how to treat women. But rather I find their sense of entitlement tiresome.
This is all I need to know about women.
1. She doesn’t have any power or control over me unless I grant it to her.
2. She cannot abandon me, she cannot betray me, she cannot slap me with child support for some other guy’s bastard, and she cannot bankrupt me if I do not marry her. Presumptive paternity and not fault divorce render the marriage contract null and void from the very beginning.
3. She wants to move in with me, so we can split the rent and have sex together? Fine. I have my bank account; she has hers. All bills are split 50-50, and I keep the receipts. I wash my clothes; she washes hers. All chores are split 50-50. I will do all the grocery shopping and cooking; she will pay her half.
4. If she becomes pregnant, naturally I will support and raise my child, after a paternity test.
Now, what is wrong with that arrangement? It couldn’t possibly be that women are incapable of dealing with a man on a truly equal basis, could it?
Why do you think the divorce rate is so high? 50% of all marriages end in divorce in the first four years. That couldn’t possibly be because divorce is profitable for women, could it?
If all she has to offer me is sex, that’s worth a tequila shot and lie to the face.
She has her ecucation, she has her job, she has her career, and she makes good money. She can buy her own house, where she can sit at home alone and play with her cat while she complains about men. I really don’t care. She can take her bad attitude and sell it on the street. And she can take all that money she earns from selling her bad attitude on the street and use it to buy her own house. Because I’m not about to buy a house for her. Nor am I ever going to agree to a fully binding legal contract whereby I am required to pay child support for every child she conceives, especially not if none of those children are mine.
The modern American girl is worthless. All she has to offer is sex. I can get that on any weekend at any bar. Is she going to be my life partner? No. Is she going to be my helpmate? No. Is she going to be the mother to raise my children? No. Well, then I’m done. She offered me sex. I had sex with her. She has nothing to offer me after the fact, other than debt.
She can talk all she wants. She’s only talking to figure out what she wants to say. Proving that she can do what she does not want to do. It’s ridiculous. And she isn’t worth the time or money.
Live with it, girls. Go to college, get a job, advance in your career, make a lot of money, and then buy your own house. Learn what it’s like to be the man you pretend to be. You won’t like it, but I look upon that as not my problem.
And now she doesn’t like it.
And there you have it, folks, the ultimate conclusion to the feminist mission….relationships now s–k. Can’t say that I fault your logic at all. I get tired of saying this, but all women aren’t the same and if all you see is narcissistic, feminist, career-obsessed, sex addicts and invite them into your life, then you get what you pay for. Many women (most of them are Christian women) are the constant companions, the loyal helpmeets, the dedicated housewives and mothers, the tireless, selfless workers, the ones who cherish what men bring to the table. Your problem is that you are a lousy chooser of women.
S.C.C.,
I totally hear what you’re saying, and it’s extremely sad. Your disillusionment with the modern American woman is the natural result of our modern age. As a man who has been married to the same woman for 28 years, a woman who has loved, cherished and supported me, raised our kids (I certainly participate) to be class A people, and who rarely complains, I either got very lucky or this is the way it is supposed to be. My years of experience tell me something though. The problem with modern women in America (if it’s too difficult to find a good one here, you might think of travel to Asia or something!)is that they have fallen prey to feminist hysteria, and the problem with modern American men is that they have as well. When we men buy into the glitz, the ditz and all the bling bling that they expect from us, only without the commitment (What DCanner says about what we got from feminism is right on the money), then we are paving the way to the miserable picture that you paint so well. A) You are definitely not looking in the right places for the right woman; B) You have allowed yourself to be convinced that the women you have pursued are the ONLY women out there; C) Your bitterness may doom you if you don’t turn this thing around by both looking where you should (ever try church or a singles ministry or something?) and be the kind of man that such a woman really needs, wants and will adore (not that you aren’t). There are some incredibly great women out there and they certainly aren’t lonely like the women you describe. If modern girls really want all that liberal feminism “gives” them, they will become the most bitter, lonely and wretched women the world has ever known.
** Live with it, girls. Go to college, get a job, advance in your career, make a lot of money, and then buy your own house. Learn what it’s like to be the man you pretend to be. You won’t like it, but I look upon that as not my problem. **
WTH?! I’d like to believe most THINKING men would want a woman capable of these things: going to college, getting a good-paying job, advancing in their chosen career, making tons of $$ AND buying a house. Again, WTH?! Are women supposed to sit around waiting for Prince Not-so-Charming? Or should they be self-sufficient so when a good man DOES come along, they have somethingn to offer besides T&A? Have you read and kept up with what many men are saying about this column? And how they hate women and all they are? (b/c the women aren’t men and don’t think like them? … hmmm, wonder what that says about *their* sexuality)
HOW does buying a house = masculinity? How is being self-sufficient pretending to be ANYthing but a real person? Men complained — and made huge fun of — women for yrs. for going to college to get their MRS. degree. Now that women’re actually going for MA’s & DR’s degrees, somehow *that* makes them “unfeminine”. What a CROCK of B.S. You can’t have it both ways! (or maybe you think you can, since you’re … [gasp/on] a “man”) I LOVE men, but just b/c you have a pen!s does NOT make you better or superior to women, despite what you think (or DO you think?).
Buying a house has nothing to do with masculinity. Not exposing yourself to abandonment, betrayal and bankruptcy, under the guise of making a commitment, however, does.
Man: know money, know clothes, know woman. Boy: no money, no clothes, no woman.
I figure you have a less than 10% chance of meeting an honest woman and enjoying a successful marriage. That means you have about a 90% chance of ending up like most guys I know, divorced, broke, miserable, paying child support for children you can’t even visit, or worse paying child support for children that aren’t even yours. That actually happens more than most people want to admit. 1/3 of the paternity tests performed in this country prove that the husband is not the father of the child. But there’s absolutely nothing the husband can do about it. The court does not allow evidence of any kind to question paternity in a marriage situation. If she’s your wife, they’re your children. You will pay child support. Period.
The terms and conditions of the marriage contract–community property, community funds, sweat equity, presumptive paternity, no fault divorce (these are legal terms, look them up if you have to)–are completely unacceptable. Especially these days, in this culture, under this legal system, with the attitudes of these girls. It is no longer a sacrament, but rather a license for abandonment, betrayal and bankruptcy.
I refuse to play that stupid, stupid game. I came of age in the early 70s, when the modern American girl developed her bad attitude. She doesn’t make a commitment. She makes a promise with the option of changing her mind at any time, for any reason or no reason at all. Once she gets a ring on her finger, she can pretty much do whatever she wants. She’s entitled to half of everything. She can run around and sleep with whoever she wants, without penalty but praise. She doesn’t have to worry about pregnancy, because she now has guarranteed child support. And she can leave whenever she wants, with the money, the house and the children.
Why any man today would agree to that is beyond me.
I grew up with these girls. I went to school with them. Hell, I dated them. They all have bad attitudes, what with their constant whining and complaining, their snide comments and insults. Hey, stupid girl, all you have to offer me is sex. I like sex, but I’m not about to bankrupt myself for it.
Feminism: “I’m smarter than you. I’m better than you. I make more money than you. I have a career! You can’t tell me what to do.”
The Male Response: “Buy your own house, bitch.”
I am sorry that your experiences have left you so embittered. The seventies were the nadir of American social life, the absolute bottom, in measurable terms.
Charles Murray has a new book out. In it, he talks about the divide between social groups: the married, committed, long-term families, and the bottom of the barrel. You sound like you’ve washed up on that shore of rotten fish. I’m really sorry for you. It sounds lonely and kind of terrifying. I know a bunch of guys who grew up in that decade, and none of them have managed to stay married, or even get married in the first place.
My dad just got married- he’s from that era, as is his wife. And alot of the time it seems they are being each others relationship kindergarten. They are having to be extra- gentle to each other, b/c they are both so broken in ways that I don’t think the generations before them were. They don’t understand really simple things, at least things that seem obvious to me. Like, if you’re married- everything isn’t instant. You can let a solution percolate. It’s better to mention the three good things each day, and ignore the minor aggravations- healthy people grow into the image in the mirror you hold up. So hold up a mirror of good things. I don’t know that that sort of thing was talked about in the seventies. I think it might have been assumed information that didn’t get passed on. I know I’ve seen it in teenage advice books from the 1950′s- Dick Clark’s books for teens, to be precise.
I’m not embittered. I’m bored. The modern American girl is extremely boring.
What part of the marriage contract, the law, do you not understand? It wouldn’t be presumptive paternity, would it? There are literally millions of men in this country paying child support for children that they did not conceive. Of course, that’s not a problem for women, since they benefit from it.
I do not agree to the terms and conditions of the contract. It’s that simple and that obvious. Now what, girls? You want to run around and get knocked by some boy in a bar? He probably couldn’t even pay your rent, much less support your illegimitate child. But, then, that’s your problem, isn’t it?
You have your education. You have your job. You have your career. You make your own money. Buy your own house.
What you do not have is access to any of my money, which is locked up in an LLC, a Trust Fund and a Foundation. My actual salary is really quite low. Think you can raise a child on 50% of $1000 a month? I don’t think so.
I don’t care what she thinks. I don’t care what she wants. I don’t care what she believes. The bottom line is this. I have money making money to which she has no access to. I happen to know the law, and I refuse to allow some stupid, spoiled, conceited little girl to bankrupt me. And I certainly will never pay child support for any child that isn’t mine.
She doesn’t like it? I really don’t care. She only has herself to blame for making her worthless.
Change the law. Change the terms and conditions of the contract. Until or unless women are willing to even consider that option, well, then they’ll always only be worth a tequila shot and a lie to the face. She can buy her own house. She can support her own bastard child. But don’t complain to me about it. I didn’t make her worthless. She did that all by herself.
And now she doesn’t like it. I look upon that as not my problem.
just out of curiosity, why are you commenting on a thread about long-term, committed, happy relations? This article was written, as was Mr Hawkins, to increase the kindness, ease and comfort between a couple. The substance of a marriage is different than that of a dating relationship.
S.C.C.: You, too, sound just like this guy: unhinged and unrepentant. Can’t imagine why you’re not happily married:
http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2012/03/22/man-gets-ticket-for-yelling-at-cat/
That statistic has been debunked more times than Clinton’s claims to have created a great economy, and seems to have the same 99 lives.
The overall divorce rate IS way to high, but seems higher than it really is mostly because of serial divorcers.
Paging Roissy/Chateau Heartiste…I expect an epic Fisking of this drivel will be forthcoming, already have the popcorn ready to go…
I thought Roissy’s expertise was on single men and women. Belladonna has columns about finding Mr or Mrs Right. Mr Roissy is welcome to add his two cents there, I’m sure. The discussions on those threads were pretty free-ranging. Most commenters are in long-term, happy relationships, and they had really worthwhile things to say. I know that I had to rely on lots of advice and stories to navigate getting to my Happily Ever After.
This column was about long-term relationship couples. Does Roissy cover that? I know I’ve seen one “game theory” book that the commentors said helped them get to a long-term relationship. Another set of “game theory” books mostly covered one night stands. In impressive detail.
I must say, though, hiding behind Roissy’s skirts and having him do a drive-by on a columnist is so…..girly. And not in a good way.
Every guy has had to endure the endless yammering of a woman fascinated by the predictable trivia that occurred to her that day. Here’s a tip for dealing with it: Act like you’ve had a few beers (the better alternative, actually have a few beers, is not always feasible). Seriously, take her digressive narrative and throw in some of your own – feel free to make stuff up but make sure the digressions are more interesting than her story. It’ll sound to many women that they interested you, and you’re actually trying to join the party.
Example:
Boring woman: So anyway, Sharon at work comes in like an hour late, and then she’s all mad that the rest of us waited til she got there to finish the project.
You: Women like that often are having sexual problems at home. I read in a article that many women get turned on by watching game shows. Kind of weird.
“Belladonna” once again proves that she is actually just a typical, self-centered “gimee, gimee, gimee” modern narcisistic American b—h who expects men to fawn over them and take care of their every ridiculous, psychotic need (without, of course, ever feeling the need to give support to their men in ways that they need it, as that would be, in contrast, acting as some kind of modern-day self-loathing she-slave) as if it were the word of God. You are a psuedo-conservative fraud.
hard to decipher what you said percynjpn. it was so stupid I just knew I had misread it, so i confess I read it again trying in vain to understand what floats your boat.
i bet you watch a ton of sadistic porn.
How can being so ugly to a woman whom you do not know give you such a large charge?
what is a pseudo-conservative fraud? a fake conservative fake? so she is a real conservative? I don’t know what you are trying to say. Does saying pseudo make you feel smart?
Sorry didn’t work. you come across as a mean ignorant useless little nerd who wouldn’t have the guts to open his mouth without the anonymity of the internet
Oh, I’m sorry, please let me explain it more clearly:
Belladonna” once again proves that she is actually just a typical, self-centered “gimee, gimee, gimee” modern narcisistic American b—h who expects men to fawn over them and take care of their every ridiculous, psychotic need (without, of course, ever feeling the need to give support to their men in ways that they need it, as that would be, in contrast, acting as some kind of modern-day self-loathing she-slave) as if it were the word of God. You are a psuedo-conservative fraud.
Still don’t get my meaning? Well, I tried. . .
oh by the way perciville
whats this gimme gimme gimme stuff?
Belladonna gives us her thoughts and opinions
and what do we give her?
do you ever think of how stupid what you say sounds?
To Percynjpn:
I totally agree with jtmckee.
You, Percynjpn, sir, are a fool. Pure, pure-blind fool. Belladonna is a fine writer, and week after week, she helps people with almost impossible quandaries.
NOTHING she advised was self-centered. The title of the article, again? Oh, yeah: 8 mistakes men make about women. You are free to consider or ignore everything, something, or nothing she said.
Evidently she struck a big nerve with you — probably the same one that gives big-time insight into why women run and hide from you. Tell the truth: have you ever gotten a women to go out with you more than 3-4 times? (unless she WAS a psychotic mess, which with your own problems so evident, you just naturally attract.) Seriously, if you’re going to post in this forum, try a well-reasoned & thought-out comment, (with correct spelling, grammar, sentence construction and understanding of the terms you use) instead of loathsome ranting that goes nowhere, and means diddly squat. In the meantime, lay off Belladonna. She’s one of the best columnists on PJM, and that’s saying a LOT.
Well DD dear, thank you for your input. My wife of 20 years also finds the posts of BD and the general attitude of woman like you and BD to be, shall I say, a bit unbalanced (though she’s not a “modern” American woman who’s mad at the world of men just because their, well, femiNazi overlords demand their “feminist” (HA!) GroupThink ).
But that’s ok, please feel free to continue with your hysterical posts – and we on the other side will continue to find you ridiculous and pathetic – please have a nice day!
@78 “percynjpn”
WHOAAAA there, percynjpn! Where does all that anger come from? And why do you direct it at a person you don’t even know, and obviously don’t understand due to your very poor reading comprehension? It couldn’t possibly be because you’re a “flop with chicks,” and have “been that way since nineteen sixty-six,” could it? (Plus where DID you learn to spell like that, and to also split your infinitives?)
Listen carefully to the following advice, percynjpn, as I once did to the person who gave it to me years ago (and who was much wiser than me). When someone who’s very important to you acts emotionally, unfairly, or even badly towards you, your goal should not be to react *reasonably;* your goal should be to react *selfishly.* Meaning, you should respond in a manner that’s more likely to be appreciated by the other person and to bring eventual psychic rewards your way. For example, it may indeed be “reasonable” to respond to a temporarily emotionally needy woman by reminding her of the virtues of stoicism, or of her own silliness and/or your own comparable needs; but your reasonableness will leave her bitter and unhappy, and eventually cost you a lot emotionally. A much wiser response would be to “selfishly” play the role of the helper, i.e., the person who helps her work her way out of the emotional state she temporarily finds herself in.
And that’s what Belladonna’s advice above is about: i.e., how to avoid the “reasonable” response to women that many men have been programmed to give but that will probably end up making them miserable; and to chose the “selfish” one that’s more likely to lead to psychic rewards for the man and the woman he’s helping.
Belladonna’s advice above is very wise and I suggest you follow it.
It’s very interesting reading all the clairvoyant comments from those who “agree” with Bella, especially when you’re able to magically deduce the psycological make-up and personal history of those who find her posts ridiculous and pathetic.
Well, good for you, especially all you whipped candy ass men who need a woman like B to tell you how to worship your queen on her one-way street of selfish need; you are no doubt proud of your abilities – congratulations!
If you still cannot fathom the meaning of my words – well, sorry, but best of luck in your pathetic endeavors – I mean that sincerely.
“It’s very interesting reading all the clairvoyant comments from those who ‘agree’ with Bella, especially when you’re able to magically deduce the psycological [sic] make-up and personal history of those who find her posts ridiculous and pathetic.”
Is that a *denial* of my suggestion that you had a long history of being a “flop with chicks,” percynjpn? Because if it is, it’s a pretty weak denial. Can’t say I’m convinced.
The reason is that a man who was a “success with chicks” would never describe the “typical” American woman as a “self-centered ‘gimee [sic], gimee [sic], gimee [sic]‘ modern narcisistic [sic]… b—h who expects men to fawn over them and take care of their every ridiculous, psychotic need.” Granted, there *are* women out there who fit that description. But they’re not the majority, and they’re definitely not the ones that a man who’s a “success with chicks” chases. To the contrary, the successful man avoids the narcissistic psychos like the plague, ends up finding a woman who’s their polar *opposite*, and then completely *forgets* about the narcissistic psychos.
It sounds like you had too much experience dating the latter.
“[A]ll you whipped candy ass men who need a woman like B to tell you how to worship your queen on her one-way street of selfish need; you are no doubt proud of your abilities – congratulations!”
Talk about armchair “clairvoyance” and “magical deduction”! My supportive and adoring wife of 28 years would find your description ridiculous.
“If you still cannot fathom the meaning of my words – well, sorry, but best of luck in your pathetic endeavors – I mean that sincerely.”
Ah, another brilliant man who’s tragically misunderstood because the masses are too stupid, *not* because his writing is crap! Clearly, we don’t deserve you!
Thoughtful, reasoned response to someone who’s not interested in hearing.
During pre-marriage counseling, someone once told us that husband and wives are best friends. My hubby immediately said, “No, I have a best friend. His name is XXX. She’s my wife. They’re different.” We discussed this various times throughout our engagement and marriage, we still talk about it sometimes even now. My husband was very insistent that husbands & wives were “husbands & wives,” not “best friends.”
So when your wife/significant other comes to you babbling about her day, her work, the laundry, the kids, her soap opera, maybe that’s why. She sees you as her best friend and those are the things you tell your best friend, without wanting something fixed. It’s a distinction of relationship.
Oh and that (stupid) Carly Simon song…..Yes that song is about him (“I’ll bet you think this song is about you…don’t you…don’t you”) the song is about him and no one else but him Carly. Who else is the song about? If he wasn’t vain before the song he surley was afterwards.
Somehow I knew this entire thread was going to end up being….NOT so helpful.
At least women are consistent. They don’t want their husbands to treat them like their mothers, but they are willing to lean on their husbands like they would on their fathers. They don’t want their men to act all self-centered like a Sun King but they want to be the center of attention when they are on an emotional jag and just get positive reinforcement and no critical analysis. “Let’s Talk” means “I talk and you listen and give monosyllabic affirmation to what I say.” A woman does not want sex excepting only those times when she wants sex. Ok I get it now. It is really very simple after all.
Your advice is generally sound. Your literary taste, however, is suspect. The first sentence of The Adventures of Augie March is worth more than the entire output of P. Roth.
Reasonable readers may differ. You’ll see further up in the comments that Clarice and another reader agree with Belladonna. Personally, I think it’s a gender difference. I was an English major and none of my English major women friends has never been able to get through any of Bellow’s novels, in whose work women are either beautiful and worthy of his attention or hags who don’t deserve a seat on a bus or a second glance. With Roth, his women are real characters of real depth. Bellow feels like an insult to many women. Roth feels like a great writer who, like all great writers, appreciates the variety of women, and doesn’t use them as stock characters. Bellow’s women are caricatures.
You can see why Bellow had five wives. He liked to bully women in real life. Women don’t fare any better in his writings.
Wow. Great comment.
All women are bitches at heart. Period. Nothing they say makes sense, and the less sense it makes, the more they have to say about it. Any man, wishing to stay sane, knows that before being trapped into a bitching session, he must procure beer. Copious amounts of beer. Or else move on, and eventually find another bitch.
Are you sitting in a bar, the only one left, having struck out with every woman you’ve talked to all night? And is this the 365,000th night the same thing has happened? That would go a long way to explaining your bitterness. Your rage is jumping off the screen. Instead of trying to find a woman, I’d try to find a male buddy who can hep you out.You’re in bad shape, my friend. Get some help before your hurt yourself.
Classic American Bitch sessions. No real man wants you, you bulldyke middle-aged feminazi’s. Go lezbo.
Yes, quite; perhaps the erudite “DD” or the obviously projecting what-he-sees-in-his-own-mirror “Jesse-girl” inspired your excellent and spot on reaction, mate!
What women really seem to want is deference to their sensibilities at all times.
Yes, exactly.
Well, most of them, anyway. Just like most men.
Wow. Lots of hurting, disillusioned men out there. Here’s what I take from the comments section:
He blames her.
She blames him.
But who’s going to be the first to say, “your needs first, not mine”?
Women used to get to vent all day while picking berries and washing clothes together at the river. That is where it belongs.
The advice is how to be her male girlfriend. A guaranteed lust killer. You are better off being the guy she comes to for sex.
I love the choice of Carly Simon’s one big hit. It is perfect in an unintended way. If I recall popular gossip correctly, she is singing about legendary bad boy Warren Beatty. She had a fling with a bad boy, he moved on or she left because he couldn’t be exclusive, and now she is mad because she can’t have him all to herself, so she is calling him names publicly. How common is that? She likely had a cloud of orbiting nice guys who would have treated her well, but she only used them as shoulders to cry on when she was mad at Warren, because they didn’t give her the same tingle. So it goes.
Do you want to be the guy who listens to Carley’s problems with bad boys, or do you want to be the bad boy who makes her crazy with lust?
I think you mean, because he wasn’t man enough to be exclusive.
Fido can run around sticking his thing into anything that moves. It doesn’t take a man at all.
Good point Mark. But I gotta admit OG has a point, too: women do not like “nice guys” however much they claim to. They want a strong man. And, yes, they want him for themselves only, as is natural. But to a woman, “nice” equals weak, and ultimately they despise that.
I’m writing a book on some of these very issues! I’ll share one with you here, Ladies
NEVER and I mean NEVER try to change him. No matter how much you see that he needs to change DO NOT try to do it. The reason is simple “Its not your job” Its Gods job to change him. If you think its your job, then your playing God for him. According to scripture a woman’s job in a mans life is to admire and respect him (which is love to him). How would you do that, to someone that you can move around and they become what ever you (a fallen human being and wounded person/ we all are) think they should be?
I have been writing and speaking on this for over 20 yrs. I have found less than 10 women who said they had never tried to change their men, and all were in successful relationships.
According to Prov. 31:11 there is another job a “good woman” has. That is to protect her man’s heart! In the years I’ve been speaking on these issues I have been asked many many times by women, “how do you protect a mans heart”? I have concluded that either they have not been paying attention or they have never had a mans heart to protect.
If you would like to hear more email me at ecm@alaska.com Tom Feliciano
YAWN.
Yeah.
Umhm.
What number are we on?
Two things. One
EIGHT TIPS ON HOW TO TALK WITH A WOMAN
A. When a woman says, “let’s talk,” try not to react as if your manhood has just been threatened by all ten of the FBI’s TEN MOST WANTED MOHELS.
is one of the funniest jokes I’ve read. I’ve already used it twice. Two. I’m a wedding photographer. After 30 years I can tell you all happy marriages have one thing in common. Each partner encourages the other one’s growth & fun. And it doesn’t hurt if they actually admire each other too.
Philip Roth a great writer?
You know what pulp writer Jacqueline Susann said? “Philip Roth is a good writer, but I wouldn’t want to shake hands with him.” Philip Roth may have loved his mother, Ms. Rogers, but his writing is hyped up nothing. He is the pornographic version of Thomas Wolfe, someone who wrote while fondling himself. The two of them are like Oakland. There is no there there. Perhaps you should speak with Andrew Klavan about Saul Bellow. And by the way; are you married Ms. Rogers? You write like a single woman. Jane Austin was a great writer, and she was married with kids. The problem with experts is, they often do not know what they are talking about.
A woman will cry because she did something stupid. She will cry again when she repeats the mistake.
OK. Your eyes are up there. And the purpose of your low cut top is?
I know what women want. “All of it and right now you summabitch!”
Perfect comment. I agree with Belladonna that a women’s eyes are not down there. So as the comments states what is the purpose of the low cut top, or the bare midriff or overly tight jeans and/or tight top.
Every man’s eyes and brain knows what that is all about. It is to catch a man’s attention sexually. And most of the time they use sex to try to caught the man.
My 1st fiance was using very loose body language to catch the attention of the “lady’s man” I was with. Well she did not catch him she had to settle for me. Notice I said fiance not wife. It was a disaster.
Of course, women many times caught a guy and afterwards throw him away. We call that divorce.
D*amn, this article took a long time to slog through.
8th mistake women make with men. They want us to hear what they have to say, but don’t have the ability to say it before social security kicks in.
Ladies, when the eyes glaze over… your window of opportunity just closed.
Do you want to tell us something? Pretend our phone has 5% battery left… because it does.
Reading this has left me with an nearly irresistible urge to become a Wahabbi Muslim and move to country that practices strict Sharia!
Another flaming example of why any decent hardworking man should not bother looking for a mate among “wymmin” from most of western Europe and the Anglosphere. This is graphic evidence in yet another of a long string of open and shut cases demonstrating that 95+% of western European and / or Anglosphere women are absolutely batsh!t insane and not worth wasting effort, time or money on trying to build a life or family with them.
I hope western wymmin in general and our society as a whole is happy with the fruits of the Wymmin’s movement. We’ve sown the wind and we’re now going to reap the whirlwind. It’s going to be a very bumpy ride, especially for those millions of wymmin who haven’t clue one about reality.
Still bitter, and clingin’ to my guns!
Armageddon Rex
“You SHOULD know!”
OK as a male who has never pretended to understand women, I can see all your points. But how about this one. I say hello to my (now ex) wife or girlfriend and get the following.
“I don’t want to talk to you!” Oh God I think, WHAT have I done wrong and I ask “What have I done wrong?” WRONG question. She responds “You SHOULD know!”
OK I SHOULD know. But I can’t recall doing anything particularly gross, nasty, crude or otherwise earthshaking in at least the last three or four days so I answer, “NO I DON’T know. Please tell me!” To this I get “You mean you DON’T REALLY KNOW?!!!”
I typically would respond with something like “If you don’t TELL ME how could I ever know?” This response prompted my then girlfriend to change her seat assignment away from me on a flight from Miami to Phoenix.
Finally at the Phoenix airport she condescended to inform me. I’d given her a really nice set of HOSEHOLD TOOLS as a Chritmas present! I knew she needed ‘em. I’d been with her helping set up her Christmas tree in her appartment and she had NO tools of any kind. I thought it was thoughtful. She allowed that I was thinking of her as “one of the guys.” I said, “Listen, I DONT sleep with guys and love sleeping with you.” A week or two later she forgave me.
I’ll never understand women!
I’ve very effectively used the computer analogy with women for years, including my wife. Almost all women agree with its conclusion. Men on PCs and women are Macs. They obviously speak different languages. Men don’t expect, but are excited when women can speak a little PC. Women not only expect men to speak Mac, they’re upset when we don’t.
Men understand intuitively the existence of the language barrier. They don’t understand why women simply refuse to speak the language both will understand: Plain freakin’ English. No, most women prefer to stubbornly insist we speak a foreign language.
Once I offer this idea to the women in my life, they almost all admit, some grudgingly, that I have an excellent point. The middle ground is to speak very plain English – as men don’t have the ‘chip’ allowing the constant ‘reading between the lines’ women demand. You know, “Well, you should just know” crappola. No, we have a native tongue – English. Speak it when communicating with your man, and watch your relationship deepen immediately.
If we men should all ‘just know’, spoken language wouldn’t be necessary. How tough is this?
Do you think the Women know what they want, or if they do, they will admit it to you? Self knowledge is hard to come by, and once you have it, hard to deal with. Very very few people have it and of those people, fewer still are Women. Generally people who talk a lot about their “issues” are trying to figure themselves out. Don’t bother trying to figure them out. Focus on your goals,make sure your goals are good and noble, have a plan, and stick to it. The right woman will follow, the wrong ones will not. Don’t sweat the ones that won’t follow and you will prosper and, most likely multiply.
A few points.
“F. When a woman asks you a question, note that “fine” or “good” or “OK” are not our idea of an answer. To a woman, any monosyllabic resply is an insult, an affront, a casus belli (“cause of war” for those of you who slept through Caesar’s conquest of Gaul).”
Sure… but when it’s the 6th time you’ve asked me THE SAME QUESTION TONIGHT… I’m not really up for having the exact same conversation again. I’m not sure why you’ve decided we need to have the exact same conversation we’ve already had over and over again; or why you’re upset that my answer, while not changing, is getting shorter each time. I’m not trying to add to the subject; I’m trying to remind you that we’ve already covered this, in detail, multiple times, in the past 24 hours.
…
“Why not reach out and open a heavy door (even though we, too, work out), allow a lady to precede you out of an elevator, or do anything else that was once known as chivalrous? ”
You’ve never been screeched at by a shrill “feminist” for the affront of “thinking she can’t open a door herself”. If someone YELLS AT YOU REGULARLY for doing something that you consider A FAVOR FOR THEM… guess what. YOU QUIT DOING FAVORS LIKE THAT FOR PEOPLE.
How is that hard to understand? If women (who looked just like you, no obvious cues or differences) didn’t go into histrionics screeching at me for DOING SOMETHING NICE… maybe I’d be nice to women more often. It’s not my fault I learn from my actions, and I don’t like being yelled at for doing something I considered both nice, and optional.
But maybe I’m wrong… you do something nice for me; I’ll yell at you for having the temerity to be nice to me… we’ll see how that works out for everyone. But I’m guessing you start being less nice.
Here’s what I get from this blog:
The definition of a healthy relationship is one where the man bends over backwards to make the woman happy.
Women have to realize that there is a limit to tolerating their illogical behavior. For example: Women don’t want us to solve their problems just listen to their complaints– why? What is the purpose of acknowledging a problem if you have no intention of solving it?
As for chivalry, men learn early on that there are few paybacks — Queen Elizabeth eventually had Raleigh executed.
There are very few women worth this unending effort.
.