Dour Denninger Dumps on Yours Truly — and PJ Media
The next paragraph is clearly an expressed opinion. As much as Karl may not like it, I’m entitled to it, and it sure as hell has no “utter falsehood” component:
The economy as we knew it died that day — and virtually no one objected. As Michelle Malkin wrote: “If you don’t feel like throwing up today, you’re not paying attention.”
I wrote that paragraph because in my view (which Michelle at least generally shared) what happened three years ago on October 14 represented a pivotal turning point for the worse in our economic history:
- It was, as far as I know, the first instance, and certainly the first on such a large scale, where the government deliberately and under threat of force took effective ownership and control of an entire industry sector, not just its failures.
- It directly defied the clearly understood intent (and, I would argue, the hardwired provisions) of the TARP law passed only eleven days earlier.
- It was greeted with near silence by the political class, the press which knew how different Paulson’s actions were from the law’s intent, and the public at large.
The fact that the large majority of TARP funding has been repaid hardly represents an exoneration of what Paulson did. His action — again, I must emphasize, “with President George W. Bush’s shameful capitalism-betraying acquiescence” — gave cover to all manner of subsequent longer-lasting government moves towards tyranny (“arbitrary or unrestrained exercise of power; despotic abuse of authority”), including but by no means limited to the use of TARP funds to bail out General Motors and Chrysler (which Congress, at least publicly, never originally intended), while arbitrarily and extralegally divvying up the spoils; the government’s outright takeover of student loans; the Dodd-Frank legislation, which, as I wrote in the run-up to its passage, is a massive power grab giving the government nearly unquestioned power to shut down any financial institution any time it likes; and pervasive regulatory overreach like we haven’t seen since the economically depressed 1930s.
The final paragraph with which Denninger takes issue is also the column’s finale:
Even beyond what we can see with regulations gone wild, failed stimulus, and outright corruption, our government’s authoritarian overhang and its destructive psychological effect on business and investor behavior largely explain why the economy won’t acceptably grow.
Denninger wrathfully writes: “If you believe one word of that paragraph you’re dumber than a box of rocks.”
Rock on this, Karl: It sure as hell isn’t an “utter falsehood” — and for heaven’s sake, please note that in my view the government influences cited “largely explain” why the economy won’t grow — not by any stretch exclusively, or even nearly exclusively. Plenty of individuals, businesses, government institutions, politicians, and government officials — including Hank Paulson, both before and during his Treasury tenure — are deserving of properly allocated blame for the conditions which led to our currently stuck in neutral (at best) economy. The column was about how the legislated TARP was not the Paulson-executed TARP, and how the Paulson-executed TARP was a tragic, possibly point-of-no-return authoritarian first.
Thus, the column contains no “utter falsehoods.” I try my damnedest not to write ‘em, and I can attest from experience that the editors at PJM try their damnedest to prevent ‘em from getting published.
Karl Denninger owes us — myself and PJ Media — nothing short of an unconditional apology. The proper words are: “I was wrong. I am sorry. I will appropriately retract.” Period. From my standpoint, there’s no chance of any kind of dialog about the rest of the content at your post — which might otherwise be quite worthy of discussion — until I get one.
An apology from Denninger?
LOL
Karl wailed when a certain national radio host quoted paragraphs of his work without attribution, but he can’t identify you to debate your points?
It’s probably easier that way.
But tell me Tom, are you upset? Don’t surgar-coat it, just give it to me straight. The good thing about the Internet today is that everybody has an opinion. That bad thing about the Internet today is that everybody (like Denninger) has an opinion. I’m sure we know that you are right and that he was very wrong.
Maybe he meant utter falsehood IN SPIRIT. There must be an abstract “false-i-ness” that you’re just not getting.
Just file Denninger under the rest of the unhinged retards shouting all day long, these days.
Maybe Breitbart’s Retracto the Alpaca can help you with this.
Don’t worry about Denninger – if you look on the Journolist 2.0 email where Dylan Ratigan composes the OWS mission statement, Karl’s email address is on the thread.
Bet he doesn’t want to talk about that now. Pot calling the kettle black.
Tom is undoubtedly angry. Understandable. The sharper pain is that this came from someone for whom he has a measure of respect.
I doubt he will get an acknowledgement, much less the apology he deserves. It makes me feel bad too.
Karl is usually a good read, and has an analytical bent that cuts through the haze, but he has a tendency to overreact to “Dems = bad; GOP = good” pieces — or even “Dems = horribly, awfully bad; GOP = possibly survivable bad” ones.
I suspect that this comes from his relationship to local politics in Florida, and is being extrapolated a bit past the relevant range — but I have no data to back this up.
It’s important to remember, however, that both Karl and Tom are among the “good guys” who are shocked and appalled by current-day application of wrongheaded, discredited philosophies…..and, while people here may back Tom in this tussle, there are other — more serious — fights to be fought (with the real enemy) where they may want to support Karl.
I’d recommend his blog wholeheartedly, even though 10% of his posts make me wince [and not in a good way] — because another 10% of his posts are exceptionally good, and more than half the rest make you go, “hmmmmmmmm”.
You take the most flak when you are directly over the target.
Karl the Snarl is actually Ron Paul on speed.
Much of what he says is actually quite right, but it gets lost in the frothing, raging, hyperventilating, attempt to form a circle and shoot in all directions at once.
His arguments get repeatedly winged with his own crossfire.
His attempt at fiscal relativism…blaming everyone equally, is inane. His attempt to paint the OWS movement with a scrub brush and a pail of evaporated spilled milk is rather amusing, but not very credible.
The anarchists, communists, nazis and assorted lunatic fringe of the left cannot be whitewashed with The Snarl’s scattershot slings and arrows. He can lay down some flak cover, but his argument gets fatally wounded in the circle jerking.
Secondly, when the foam subsides a bit and he goes after the banks…he loses his momentum by wildly firing at you, Tom. His argument is a non sequitor.
Yes, AIG and Goldman and Bear Stearns did “junk” the market. However, that is a SEPARATE, NOT TIED argument about the totalitarian seizures. Trying to mete out blame “equally”…and making it an “equal” argument between left and right is a fool’s errand.
And, the Snarl is the lead fool in this regard.
The banks got dealt lemons by the CRA and ACORN lawsuits, they made lemonade (and a ton of money) and Humpty Dumpty’s wall came crashing down on everybody’s heads.
But Barney Frank and Chris Dodd and the Democratic Congress hid this, Fannie hid this, and Franklin Raines and Jim Johnson cooked the books, while Barney and Chris were hiding this…and the Republicans were trying to get information on it…they were being told lies.
If Karl the Snarl wants to conflate the issues so that he can play the big shot who shoots in all directions, he is certainly free to do so.
But that would be imbecility at the highest level. It’s a cheap and smarmy attempt to try to buy “credibility” because you accuse equally…which the high art of selling out accuracy for smarmy applause lines.
For my dollar…I’ll take Tom Blumer any day. He knows that a half truth is a whole lie.
It’s a lesson Karl would do well to learn.
Ever since the election of Hussein, I have a new litmus test I use before I discuss anything with anyone. The litmus test is this: Did you vote for President Jackass? If so, then I stop any further attempt at conversation because I know without a doubt that the person is an absolute asshat.
Karl Denninger is just such an asshat! ‘Nuff said…
Another litmus test I used in the past: Who would make a better president, George Bush or Fidel Castro. The Bush haters would invariably say anyone but Bush.
I agree with that ….he didn’t want to vote for mccain and I don’t blame him but he could have wrote in his own name or wiped his as$ with the ballot.
voting for obama even in 2008 is unforgivable. There was enough history on the narcissist/marxist before the election.
Karl has some very good points on the fruad going on in the market place and the relationship with washington and the bankers.
…but on the occupy wall street I think his is being duped like many others. the OWS is being organised by the marxist friends and supporters of obama. they are fomenting a revolution.
General before making a comment about OWS you really should attend an event. There are many libertarians supporting OWS and I have not seen any Marxists. The people that attend are fed up with our 2 party system and our fascist state.
yes I know the argument. there are many people duped into joining the protests.
the marxists do not want it to look like a marxist take over so they need “normal” people there to give some legitimacy to the movement.
just look at who is supporting and organizing and then you will know what the purpose is. it is communism.
the west has always failed to see communism for what it is and this time it will beat them.
I would go to one if I didn’t have a job and could take the time to go. still this is not unlike the arab sproing.
the western media thinking it was democracy at work.
IT WAS NOT!
IT was bill ayers and fellow communists organizers ..just like these protests. van jones and the unions. some one is being willfully blind here and it isn’t me. I always reserve the possibility that I may be incorrect and look at things from a critical point. if you can show me how this is grass roots I am willing to change my mind. but if as I think this is sponsored by the marxists/progressives …will you??
General,
Here’s the proof you wanted to change your mind about OWS:
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=196164
You’ve got to stop listening to the elite’s propaganda which is to divide and conquer. If the the rank and file Tea Party members join forces with OWS as suggested in the videos from the link above then we’ll have a viable 3rd party to create some real positive change.
BTW, OWS movement is going on 24/7 all over the country, so even if you do have a job you can attend after work or go to one over the weekend.
I follow Karl and have a lot of respect for him. I just disagree with him on who is fomenting the OWS. The OWS is fully backed by the elites and the democrats, obama, bill ayers, pelosi, reid van jones, soros etc. these are marxists.
cheers
I want to stress that you need to watch all 4 videos, they’re short don’t worry, because it starts off a little slow. In the 2nd and 3rd videos they clearly state OWS does NOT want the support of progressive organizations – they told MoveOn to take a hike and while union members are welcome, the unions themselves are not. They also ran Congressman Rangel out of there. The reality is on a fundamental level the progressives and the libertarians have more in common than not. This is something everyone one should be supporting.
KD hates bankers with the white-hot intensity of a million shuns.
You’ve set out a narrative that will fail to cause society to hate bankers as much as he hates them. So, where most writers might comment that you’ve misplaced some of the blame in your article, KD erupts in screaming moral outrage. That’s just KD.
I honestly can’t see all that massive of a difference between what you wrote and his favored vision of what happened. People moving between the revolving doors of Wall Street and Obamaland did various things while wearing various hats, but I think that KD sees a banker’s hat as akin to herpes simplex – once worn, never removed. So when an ex-banker joins gummint and screws banks, he’s still a banker to KD. That way he can continue to justify his hatred for the people who don’t give him the respect he thinks he deserves.
A long rebuttal – in short, you’re wrong and your own source refutes your argument.
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?singlepost=2752728
Karl, are you so naive as to think that the smiles are faces of contentment resulting from the meeting? If so, you are perhaps the most gullible know nothing have encountered this week.
I’ve read Karl for some time and he’s a good guy. Unfortunately, he’s got caught up in the Glenn Beck fandance, where he sets himself up as some sort of triangulator, above it all, on the moral high ground…the typical smarmy libertarian pap. As such, he sees the need to use hyperbolic terms to attack “both sides of the aisle” and uses terms like “water carrier” and “tripe”. I understand why he disagreed with your interpretation…but he really went overboard calling you a liar.
Made you sound retarded. Clown. Never been tp your site before. I’m glad.
In your dreams.
Tom you owe an apology to Karl his rebuttal to this post just made you look liar and an idiot.
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=196125
Wrong.
I have been following KD since his incept date. Now and again he is a tad – lets be honest, untasteful with his commentary. Silly? Yes, occasionaly. Ill-informed? Possibly, but unlikely. But untruthful? You really have to have some ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ evidence for that allegation. What is it?
I’m with KD on this one. Some US financial and political folk have taken the American sheeple to that nice holiday resort in Cuba. You know the place where they provide you with free ear-muffs and a blindfold: the better so the sheeple do not get to ‘see’ what is actually being done in their name.
Lots of folk in Europe like your Constitution. So why are financial and political critters in your country using your most sacred document as a doormat? I think some answers (truthful ones) are in order.
Brian
I’ve also been following KD for years. I find I agree with him perhaps 3/4 of the time. I think the reaction to OWS depends on where you are and what you read: if you look at the film from New York and read the cache of e-mail Breitbart has posted, you see that there are a whole lot of the lefties involved, including communists, anarchists, leftist unions as well as trust-fund babies on a lark trying to recapture woodstock. If you look at the film from places like Denver, you don’t see the far left nearly so prominently.
The OWS people have a point about crony capitalism and the bankers being bailed out while the rest of us got screwed. TARP was advertised to do one thing and Paulson then turned around and did something else with the money.
I think it’s important for the right generally to understand the legitimate points raised by OWS and to not allow the left to own them.
Tom,
Karl will eat your lunch and source every word. His rebuttal pretty much shows which side you are on, and it is not the American taxpayer. I use to be a Republican, but over time realized they are no different than Democrats except for which special interest group they protect. The ONLY commonality between them is they both serve the Bankers and Wall Street.
I am a Libertarian and much of what the OWS folks are saying are what the Tea Party said in the beginning. Are they a bunch of Socialist, many appear to be, but their enemy is my enemy so I will stand with them as long as it is focused on going after the Bankers and Wall Street folks who pulled off the biggest transfer of wealth from the middle class to the ultra rich…with the help of both Democrats and Republicans.
Tom darlin, Would you like some more of that kool-aid you have been drinking to wash down the “suck it up & admit your wrong pill”?
I have been reading your pieces for quite a while and usually am on the same page, but on this one you are wrong. Until we conservatives wake up and understand the irrefutable mathmatical truth, we are doomed. This kind of drivel is what will cost us the elections in 2012. Americans know they have been screwed by the banks with our governments full cooperation and it is past the time for all to wake up to it!
What say you in reference to the banks like SunTrust and Citi double dipping at the trough?
http://www3.gsionline.com/legalcurrents/Article_20090108_E1.asp?contactid=LearnWLCB
Did they have a gun to their head the second time as well? SunTrust took over 2 years to pay back TARP and when were asked how the money was being spent arrogantly replied, “We’re not providing dollar-in, dollar-out tracking”. In fact none of the banks were required by our govt to disclose what they were doing with our tax dollars!
http://rightsoup.com/banks-refuse-to-give-specifics-on-how-they-spent-bailout-funds/
It would be funny if it were’nt so sad how we keep focusing on the crime called TARP, when in actuality TARP was peanuts compared to the trillions the banks have made from getting secret “emergency loans” from the Federal Reserve.
http://money.cnn.com/2010/12/01/news/economy/fed_reserve_data_release/index.htm
The same banks you cite as having a gun to their heads by Hanky Panky Paulson were lying about their health and denying their insolvency to the same tax payers that are being robbed when the banks borrow at nearly 0% interest and then in turn loan it back to the treasury for a profit. I smell a shell game where these funds were used to pay back TARP for PR reasons.
This was all done with BOTH sides of our government cheering them on, time to wake up!!!
pajamas media eats shit
Reading thru KD’s rebuttal, I heartily agree the treaury has been looted. Wasn’t it George Washington who said ‘once the government loots the treasury it ceases to be a country?
The real issue is that Wallstreet has had nothing to sell since the crash of 2000. They needed a product and got involved with the mortgage market. Then like all salesmen, they started to believe their own bs and started making their own bets on real estate and they went in the wrong direction. Those bets helped keep the housing market alive and well longer than it should have been alive and well.
Then WAllstreet got blown up again when the bubble popped. And that is why they should have not gotten a single dime.
What no one ever discusses is what Wallstreet is in the business of doing and HOW they do it. They are in the business of sugarcoating baskets of garbage.
Look at the SPY. What is in that index? 20 or so stocks over 120 per share and the rest under. 250 are under 39 per share. APPL and 20 other stocks hold the SPY over 100 per share.
They did the same thing in the mortgage deals. Sold a bunch of subprime garbage and wrapped them with a couple of primes and gave them pretty credit ratings. They called these baskets something like a CMBS or CDO…or whatever.
That is what they do. They take underlying garbage, and cover it up with something that looks good, and because most people are uneducated and do not look under the proverbial hood of the instrument being sold, when the paint job finally tarnishes, what is really there is not a Mercedes, it’s a Yugo.
When AAPL finally is revealed to be nothing more than RIMM on steroids, and the stock market fades, will they get another bailout?
These are the issues to discuss. How they do it and how they lie.
You would have to be pretty dense not to see how treasury shoving billions of zero interest money at the banks would NOT make those bankers incredibly happy
Zero interest money, who’s risk thereafter is to be covered by the government, that they could then use to wildly speculate in the markets with and skim the fantastic (yet alas temporary as we shall soon see, profits from) for the bonus pool…..and this guy thinks the bankers WERENT happy?!
Tom needs to write his column less and read Denningers columns more.
I’m looking forward to you taking K.D. up on his challenge. Of course that would require you breaking out the Excel, removing your pajamas and waking up.
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=196125
I don’t think you’re a liar, Tom. You’re just completely uninformed and incorrect. Hank Paulson was, and is, an elite bankster. He was only in government in order to protect the interests of Goldman Sachs and the other Wall Street banks. His “gun to the head” was a charade in the tradition of Brer Rabbit in the briar patch.
OWS is comprised of incoherent left-leaning idiots, but they have nevertheless correctly identified the primary villains responsible whereas you have not. If you bother to look at historical Z1, you can see that the financial sector’s share of total U.S. debt rose from 0.85% to 32.66% in 2007. That is the essence of the problem and government didn’t make it happen. Washington enabled the malinvestment boom that led to the ongoing crisis, but Wall Street is responsible for it. The fact that Washington is evil doesn’t make Wall Street innocent, it means that Wall Street is the greater evil.
And if you knew your economic history, you would understand that there is nothing capitalist about Wall Street, especially the big banks. It is a throwback to royal mercantilism, in which profits primarily derive from government charters.
Denninger was right…..you used a your own interpretation and attributed it as a quotation.
It did happen before. The head of Mongomery Ward was carried out on his swivel chair, Truman seized the steel mills, and JFK threatened steel again if they didn’t settle a strike (He took his father’s advice) You could look it up.
I follow Karl and I follow pajamas. I sift through and decide for myself.
it still boils down to the government and the bankers screwing over the people. it is the “old boys network” always has been …always will be.
the only protection the people can have is transparency. which the people DO NOT HAVE.
the OWS crowd are being used by the marxists/progressives to forment a revolution and it will not be a George Washington leading this one. it is obama and friends.
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/10/ows_links.html
Denniger is right…
“You now admit that your writing was your interpretation. But that’s not how it was originally presented. You presented it as fact, not interpretation made three years later when others were reporting on it at the time of the event.”
You may want to turn off the comments….
Horse manure.
Can’t forget this line from Karl:
“Words have meanings. Quotation marks around a set of words identify those words as spoken by a person. You’ve admitted you interpreted those words — that is, you invented them predicated on what you think happened in that room and based on various other sources.”
This is in response to your “quote” – that you appear to have made up.
Karl “cleverly” fooled you — and, “apparently,” himself.
At times I find Karl a bit pretentious, however, I admire his passion and his logic and his willingness to fearlessly fight for the American people.
Wait a minute…
The right doesn’t trust the MSM because the MSM is often inaccurate and misleading. Right? (I agree with that assessment, btw.)
But…
It’s ok to refer to the MSM as vaild source of material for your research and for your colomns and articles? This means that you think the MSM can be trusted.
I’m sorry, kids. It’s one or the other. Not both at the same time….and that is where the right and Pajams Media falls on its ass. You try to have it both ways.
No, Deninger isn’t perfect and he does make mistakes. Where Denninger has a jump on you, is that he doesn’ trust the MSM…and he doesn’t allow ideology to get in the way of the facts.
Tom, remember there is a greater community out there that after you strives through others for the truth. All you do is hurt yourself when you will not take time and educate yourself. I for one consider this strike two, and another from you will truly stain my opinion of your words.
http://voxday.blogspot.com/2011/10/karl-denninger-bitchslaps-bankers-tool.html
Geez, I expected better from Vox, not to mention a little more maturity. You and he need to catch up.
Being a market fan and trader, I really enjoy reading Denninger. That doesn’t mean I agree, but his posts do make you think.
Part of the attack may be based on the success of pajamasmedia.com. When you are successful you come under attack. Here are the traffic stats from Compete.com:
pajamasmedia.com: 382,009 uniques
market-ticker.org: 67,081 uniques
I’m pretty far to the left of Karl Denninger, but his analysis of TARP beats yours like a rented mule. Take off your GOP blinders for a just a second.
Notice that Karl’s “analysis” is based on an interpretation of a picture!…that because 2 guys are smiling hours after a meeting then obviously they weren’t threatened. Did he verify the picture went with the story? Notice, he believes the picture the MSM puts out, but not the words. How do we know both aren’t lies? No, some of the banks wanted this money, some didn’t. You didn’t lie.
Um, they’re not just “smiling”.
They look like they just got finished with a night at a first-class House of Ill Repute with first choice of the menu, and someone else paying for it…
Even if true, that’s only two of nine. What about the other seven?
http://iowntheworld.com/blog/?p=99774
…these are NOT tea party people ..these are obama people
In terms of being diligent and presenting the whole story, Tom owes KARL an apology. Karl does rant and rave a bit, but Tom is just being a poor journalist in this case.
That’s only true if you believe Hank Paulson actually had a gun.
Do you?
http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/federal-reserve-and-bank-america-initiate-coup-dump-hundreds-billions-dollars-losses-ame
Tom,
Oh by the way, that money that they didn’t need and were forced to take,totally against their wills, they blew that money up too.
Lets see if they dont need but are forced to take FDIC money this time around, of course with the usual crocodile tears first….
and the yachts later…..again
What they’re doing is a very big problem, but it’s NOT “that money” — and sloppiness in contentions such as yours, a contention ZH isn’t making, really hurts the credibility of those who are trying to raise the alarms.
I’ve followed Denninger since late 2007 and found him to be spot on in a lot of his economic analysis… even better, he makes it half-way understandable to the common man.
He’s even made me some money as I’ve followed some of his analysis and I’ve never lost money based upon following his explanations.
As much as he knows economics, he’s letting emotions cloud his analysis of the OWS movement. OWS is the antithesis of the Tea Party at almost every turn.
Denninger is so excited at the possibility that OWS will bring attention to some of the Wall Street corruption and result in arrest and incarceration of the players (which is about as likely as me becoming Pope anytime soon), that he’s ignoring all of the massive red flags flying over the OWS activities.
Frankly, I don’t completely understand the pissing match between you two, but both of you need to stop stirring to poo. The more you stir it, the more it stinks.
This whole thing appears to have degenerated into a giant nit-pick on your part. “What about the other bankers that weren’t in the picture?” Nitpicking in this high school debate class fashion clearly communicates to everyone that you have no substance and are unwilling or unable to present a solid case on that level. It’s Karl who deserves the apology here, so stop whining about it, please.