Does the Middle East Need More Christians?
ABC News found that Trijicon, which makes rifle scopes for the military, stamps references to Bible verses on its equipment. The defense contractor subsequently announced that it will voluntarily stop stamping these references on combat rifle sights. These sights are used in Iraq and Afghanistan — sometimes to train Muslims, sometimes to shoot them. According to ABC News, this is very important. If a Muslim were to see this code on the side of a rifle and then look up the verse in one of the many Bibles you can easily find in Muslim countries, then that Muslim might become indoctrinated with Christianity and then … chaos or something.
Or maybe we just worry that the mere knowledge of a reference to the Bible in those countries will cause all Muslims in the Middle East to panic and randomly shoot each other in the faces like we’re always worried they’ll do at the slightest agitation.
Now, we’ve always been worried about our wars in the Middle East being perceived as religious wars, when they’re totally not. It’s just that a number of people in the Middle East have killed Americans or want to kill Americans, so we’re going to kill them back. It’s a simple eye for an eye deal — a principle I’m pretty sure has nothing to do with the Bible. That’s why early on there was a big hubbub when George W. Bush referred to the war on terror as a “crusade.”
You see, the Crusades are a big sore subject in the Middle East, because that’s when the Christians conquered the Muslims … or the Muslims conquered the Christians … or maybe the Jews conquered all of them. I really don’t know; I went to public school. Anyway, it’s just one of those many things we want to be careful about — like depicting Muhammad — lest everyone in Middle East riot and kill each other.
So here’s my problem with this entire train of thought. We’re over there shooting Muslims and blowing stuff up, and we expect everyone to get over that. It’s the mention of Jesus that is the unforgivable sin. I guess the idea is that stuff gets blown up and people are shot in the Middle East all the time — so that’s no big deal — but Christianity is a lot less common, so that could upset them. Now, it’s quite different here. If someone comes to America and talks about their religion, that’s no big deal (or, judging from the reaction to Brit Hume’s comments about Christianity, that’s how it used to be); it’s a free country, so talk about what you want. What gets us worked up is people coming over here and shooting other people and blowing stuff up. Hence the cultural clash.
I have a radical suggestion, though. Have we actually looked at the strategic benefits of actively proselytizing Christianity in the Middle East? Now, I’m a Christian, so I’ll admit that I’m biased; I think everybody would be happier if they followed Jesus Christ. But we have a secular government — and I’m happy with that — so let’s put that aside and pretend all religions are just hokum. So, from this purely rational perspective, would trying to convert people in the Middle East have benefits?
Now, I know some Americans are against Christianity, but some Americans are also against guns, and we still use those against the enemy, so that’s not really the issue. The issue is whether this will make us safer. And I think if we could convert many in the Middle East to Christianity, we would have a lot fewer problems with the region. First off, I don’t know of any Middle East Christians who have tried to blow us up. So if we can convert people over there, we could be removing enemies from the battlefield without violence.
Plus, it would help America and that region to better understand each other. If I may speak an uncomfortable truth, the fact that everyone is so Muslim in the Middle East kind of unnerves most Americans. We don’t really know what’s up with that. We’re told “Islam means peace” and we want to believe that, but most Americans don’t really know if that’s true, even though many Muslims live by that tenet.
But there are also a lot of Muslims who think blowing people up is the best way to express their religious devotion, and not many of us have really read the Koran and the supporting hadiths to come down on one side or the other in that debate. There are still debates in Christianity I’m trying to figure out. Who has time to learn an entirely different religion? But if the people in the Middle East were saying, “We’re blowing you up for Jesus,” we actually know pretty well where to point to in the Bible to show them that’s wrong. If they’re instead like, “We’re shooting you because you’re meddlesome,” that still doesn’t change much, but one thing at a time.
So I think it’s pretty inarguable that if there were at least more Christians in the Middle East, things would be easier for us here in America. The problem, then, remains whether merely mentioning Jesus is going to cause nothing but bloodshed over there. Saudi Arabia even has laws that basically make it illegal to even mention other religions. I don’t know if anyone has ever pressed this, though; are they really going to cut off oil exports to us and throw their whole country into chaos out of fear of the Bible? What a bunch of weird sissies.
This is where we get to the old liberals versus conservatives divide. Liberals, in their enlightened view, think some people are lesser than us, and we must patronize them and treat them as children always on the verge of a tantrum. Thus we should never meddle with the Middle East and bring up things they don’t like, or they’ll become colicky babies. Conservatives, on the other hand, have the racist view that all people should be treated equally, and if we can deal with Muslims over here spreading their religion, then we should expect the same with the Middle East and the spread of Christianity. Fair is fair.
I guess the question is: Do we expect the Middle East to always be like this? Are they always going to be the babies of the world we have to work extra hard not to upset, or can we one day treat them as equals? If we expect that they’ll someday be more open and less prone to tantrums, then shouldn’t we work towards that now by finding a way to start slowly introducing more ideas over there, not just democracy but religious freedom as well? And if not now, then when? Whenever we get that change, it’s going to help us. We do want to make it clear our conflicts in the Middle East are not about Islam, which would be pretty easy if the people we were invading over there were Christians.
Note: The company has now agreed to remove the verses from the gunsights.
If you want more Christians in the Middle East, you can start by having all those proselytizers move from OUR country, Israel – where they are not wanted and lucky we do not decide to kill them – to southern Lebanon, the Gaza Strip (sill Israel, but not Jewish Israel) or Arabia, where a non-violent religion would really do the locals some good.
Considering the number of Jews you Christians have murdered off in this country already in Crusades and other wars, you should get your butts out of here and go talk religion to the Muslims. Let’s see how long you last there.
If you have read the Quran of the muslims, then you know there is no such thing as peace. They must ALWAYS have war. If not with the infidels, then with themselves against each other.
That is their belief. War is the way to conduct themselves.
The west needs to wake up and realise that. Knowledge is power, and the west seems to be dumb dumb on the snooze.
Funny how this commentary is published the same day as another commentary on Trijicon using Biblical quotes… Aim in the name of Jesus?
“Does the Middle East Need More Christians?”
No, it needs more atheists and agnostics.
I could never support the feigning of Christian proselytizing by a bunch of Evolutionists (i.e. us) in order to win a war.
You said all the important stuff and it was really funny. Thanks. And, yes, in the New Testament, there is no such thing as blowing up stuff for Jesus.
If the people were saying, “We’re blowing you up for Jesus,” we actually know pretty well where to point to in the Bible to show them that’s wrong.
My goodness Frank, don’t you listen to Obama and the liberal elites? The Jihad (oh there I go again using that word) has nothing to do with their religion. It’s because of poverty and the Joos.
The presence of yet another excuse-situation to carry a predetermined message was so silly and obvious when this story first broke. When the phrase “Jesus code” hit the media, I couldn’t wait to see what “Bible codes” were being referenced. Of course, predictably, it turned out to be simple declarations of basic Biblical doctrines considered core to Christianity. Secret codes? Hardly. It’s amazing to observe how quick, how insightful, how intelligent the religion rights and bureaucratic quacks are to deconstruct, analyze and destroy references to those horrible lines about the work of Christ when they can’t simple to grasp the simplest elements of Islam such as those discussed in Surah 66:2 or Surah 16:106; or the difference between the House of War and the House of Islam. I guess they’re more interested in undercutting Christianity than they are in exposing Islam. Of course, that’s understandable when you see how much cultural damage and destruction Christianity’s hospitals, orphanages, homes/assistance for pregnant teens, Franklin Graham’s Samaritan’s Purpose, Larry Ward’s Foot for the Hungry…etc. it’s understand when you look at all the horrendous damage such groups have done compared to the love and tender compassion of Islam. I must be missing something.
Frank, you speak the truth. I believe in the truth, and in the Truth of Christ. Prepare for an onslaught of hate and criticism from the rabid left. But the truth will set you (and all of us) free.
I suppose this is a good time to note that there were many hundreds of thousands of Christians lving in Iraq before we invaded. Saddam, as evil as he was, actually allowed them to live there, even openly. That all changed after the invasion, where they were either butchered or forced out of their communities. And the US supported government doesn’t really care that it’s population has this jihad against any underground Christian movement. But hey victory is victory!
It must drive Ruvy to distraction that Jesus is Jewish. I’m glad that God has a sense of humor.
I support this proposition (for the sake of disclosure I am a Christian). The way I see it is that most of the radicalization takes place in the mosques over there. Heck those folks pray five times a day like clockwork. If they become Christians you won’t have that problem. It is like pulling teeth to get your average American Christian to church on a regular basis and don’t get me started on prayer. They will be too busy skipping church to catch the Superbowl (or whatever the equivalent sport is over there, rock throwing maybe) to bother getting all frothy and radicalized. Hence a safer, quieter middle east.
Clearly there is only one solution to the dearth of Christianity in the Middle East . . . only one man who has the courage to do and say what needs to be said. Someone who stands above the proselytizers and charlatans who spew forth empty rhetoric from behind the safety of network walls . . . only one man who has the interest of Jesus in mind rather than his own aggrandizement in a desperate attempt to reverse his fading relevance . . . Britt Hume. Go get ‘em, Britt, there’s a whole world out there that needs savin’. Don’t just stop with the PGA.
yeah #10 Robert V, saddam didn’t have a problem with christians it was the kurds he slaughtered by the millions…but who cares about kurds right?
Ruvy:
Christians are the best friends you/Israel have ever had.(I’m speaking mostly of Protestants and want you to remember that we have not yet ourselves returned to the full faith of our founders).
Yes some of them can be annoying but they stand for you and they got their faith from the Jewish people who like you were not eager to hand their faith in Yeshua over to the Gentiles. God has already saved the world thru His Son and thru Israel. The next event, restoring Israel to the hearts of their fathers will mean life from the dead according to Paul.
Tricon; Grow a set for Gods sake. Truth is nobody has the right to tell you what to put on your products. They can only not buy them. I hear you make the best. Stand up for the truth.
#1 Ruvy: Ruvy, you apparently are unaware of the fact that there ARE Christians bringing the message of Messiah to those countries where Islam is dominant. But they must do so quietly, which is probably why you don’t know about it. Did you know that there is an extensive and growing underground church in Iran, and other nations? Just wait and see what will happen…
Regarding your other comments, I can understand that looking at the history of the Church you find it easy to paint all acts done in the name of Jesus with the same brush. The Crusades, Inquisition, and pogroms are grievous acts, all contrary to the actual teachings of Jesus. (Please don’t add the Holocaust to that list – Hitler and the Nazis were out-and-out pagans, not Christians of any stripe.) On the other hand, the real Jesus has accomplished amazing changes of heart in many people, the kind of changes that we would all love to see in the hearts of those who currently hate Israel and Jews. (Take a look at http://www.arabsforisrael.com)
By the way, I am Jewish (descended from Jews on both sides of my family, as far back as we can trace) and Israeli, and 25 years ago, not as a result of “prosyletizing”, I gave my stony heart to Jesus and He changed it in ways indescribable. My behavior also changed – from deception to honesty, from selfish decisions to compassion, and more (although I still have a long way to go). And yes, I’m the kind of person you’d like to kick out of Israel. You probably hate me as much as many of those Muslims in our neighboring countries hate Christians. Who knows? Maybe we’ll meet someday, and then what? I am convinced that love trumps baseless hatred, even unto death.
Maybe if they accepted Jesus they would stop blowing up their neighbor and start loving them instead, here’s a few who have done just that.
http://redeemthetime.net/2009/11/30/in-our-back-yard/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT0trfgYRZA
Can you imagine the outrage if I, a Christian, were to make comment about Jews in America like Ruvy just did about Christians in Israel? Of course, I could not for no other that the selfish reasons of what Jews contribution to America in the form of advancement, wealth and achievement.
Ironically, while Evangelical Christians are the best friends Israeli Jews have, Ruvy is the antithesis of what Israeli Jews need. And the smart ones will tell you as much.
The Prophet (rest His Soul) spoke some beautiful words from Mecca, then blew it when He became powerful in Medina. The principle of “abrogation,” (the later overrides the earlier) has been used to justify jihad by religious fanatics for almost a thousand years.
I think it’s wonderful that the Church held the whole Western world back (in the Dark Ages) for nearly (a different) 1,000 years while Arabian art and science flourished. Then after the Reformation the role of religion in the two societies was reversed!
Ruvy;
I don’t recall those old-time Jews taking too kindly to pagans, especially in the time of the Judges.
Vivo;
Considering the lack of cultural maturity in the middle-east, more atheists and agnostics would just result in another Stalinist Russia.
Robert V;
Christians were harassed and discriminated in Iraq way before Team America showed up. In fact, most of the middle-east has trouble accepting their religious minorities.
“yeah #10 Robert V, saddam didn’t have a problem with christians it was the kurds he slaughtered by the millions…but who cares about kurds right?”
I think your numbers are a little inflated, but yeah he murdered lots and lots of Kurds. And who cares about Kurds? Well, Reagan didn’t. Still gave Saddam the support he needed in his fight against the Iranians.
The West has NOTHING to apologize for the Crusades. They may have been bloody but there was indeed a Christian community under siege there. And the Arabs were far more bloody when they conquered the Holy Land!!!!
The Crusades postdate the Arab Conquest by a couple of centuries. The Middle East and North Africa WAS Christian, until the Arabs came out of Arabia and gave them a choice of death or conversion. The Byzantine-Arab Wars saw the fall of most of the Byzantine Empire to the Arab Invaders. Concomitantly, the Arabs conquered Persia, North Africa, Armenia, etc… They didn’t send out missionaries, knocking on doors, “Have you heard the message of Mohammed?” They send soldiers with swords. Even those Christians who “submitted” would still have their heads whacked off–only now, they got to Moslem Heaven.
I have read that one of the things going on with the “jihadists” or with the “islamification” is that is built on some sort of desire to return to an “authentic” Islam. Well, if these people want to be “authentic” they should shrug off the chains of Islam, and return to Christianity, or to Zoroastrianism, or to Judaism, or to Yazdanism, or Hinduism, or Buddhism.
In Egypt, there are still Copts–Christians who speak Coptic. Arabic is NOT the NATIVE language of Egypt! Nor is it the NATIVE language of Morocco–that is Tamazight (“Berber” is the ARABIC word for the NATIVE Afroasiatic Language native to the region.) Morocco was Christian for six CENTURIES before the Arab Conquest of North Africa. Syria was a CHRISTIAN country, and they spoke ARAMAIC there, NOT Arabic… The only AUTHENTIC people from the Fertile Crescent are Assyrian (or Chaldeans or Syriac) people and Jews. And they speak a form or Aramaic or Hebrew…
The only place in the Arab World that spoke ARABIC before 622 CE was ARABIA!!!
Anything truly amazing in the Arab world only was possible because of the culture that was conquered. Hagia Sophia was Byzantine CHRISTIAN basilica. The beautiful art and architecture in Persia–was there BEFORE the Arab Conquest, but was redirected afterward as a Moslem venture. (Interestingly, the national epic written under Moslem rule, “The Shahnameh” is about the mythical and historical past of Persia from the creation of the world up until the Arab conquest of Persia. I would say that Ferdowsi was waxing nostalgic…) The beautiful miniatures owe more to the Hindu Indian tradition, than to the Moslem conquerors…
There is always hope… India was conquered by Moslems, but is now primarily a Hindu country… (Though Pakistan is the Moslem remnant of the Mughal Empire… At least Urdu really is a native language…)
@lee#22, You can see how Islam (that was and still is spread by sword) pushed Christianity westward.
It was the battle of Tours that stop Islam in its tracks in 732 A.D.
uh.. maybe they need more Attaturks?
Mr. Fleming – great article! You gave me a laugh this morning.
RobertV;
Well, Reagan didn’t. Still gave Saddam the support he needed in his fight against the Iranians.
The Iraqi armed forces carried AK 47s , drove T-72 tanks, shot SCUD missiles, and flew MIG fighters and bombers.
You’re saying Reagan gave him all that stuff?
Lee;
Byzantium fell to the Turks, not the Arabs. And India was mostly Hindu before the Moguls showed up.
No. It does not need more Christians.
Christianity and war/warfare: purging of Pagans, disgusting, vile Popes, Crusades, Inquisition, burning of books, burning of Jews, post-Reformation & split with Protestants, burnign of “witches”, Galileo and the like, endorsing slavery/racism, imperialism, and hoarding sexual predators.
No on more Christianity.
But more than that, it is a NO on theocracy. Period.
I wouldn’t say the West has NOTHING to apologize for regarding the Crusades, the Crusaders did kill a lot of Jews on their way to Jerusalem.
How about if Trijicon produces a PC version of their optics with Koran quotes for use in Muslim countries? The Koran is so full of hostility and violence that it should be a rich source of suitable quotations like: “May he who passes in front of my sight feel the wrath of Allah (and a bullet)”.
“We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.” – Ann Coulter
I agree
@#27
“Christianity and war/warfare: purging of Pagans, disgusting, vile Popes, Crusades, Inquisition, burning of books, burning of Jews, post-Reformation & split with Protestants, burnign of “witches”, Galileo and the like, endorsing slavery/racism, imperialism, and hoarding sexual predators.”
That is not Christianity.
Avoidswork;
But more than that, it is a NO on theocracy. Period.
Good point. Stalinist Russia, with its imposed atheism and slaughter of tens of thousands of clerics, destruction of churches and temples, was so much better.
Lee;
The West has NOTHING to apologize for the Crusades
Eh …Does that include crusades run against other Christians?
Terrorism in the 21st century does not justify sectarian slaughter in the 13th.
I get the joke, With that being said my coments are based on the arguments in the coment section.
1) Robert V you are completly making stuff up about the Christians in Iraq. Yes Saddam left Christians alone, but there is no mass extermination or movement of christians in Iraq after the invasion. The Assarians, Chaldeans, Christian Kurds, and even Christian Arabs, are still widely accepted in society. In the city I lived in, Kirkuk, (Which had these groups living there) there were 4 Christian Churches and litteraly hundreds of Mosques. The Assarians were closely associated with the Turkoman population, who are Muslim. The people Saddam didn’t tollerate was the Jews who were systematicly forced out in the late 70′s and early 80′s. There have been very few attacks against the indigenous Christian population, Not even a fraction of the number of Radical Muslims who blaintantly go after other muslims.
2) The vast majority of the weapons that Iraq had was soviet built, but in the 80′s we did give the Iraqi’s a lot of our equipment, including M1 Tanks (These versions did not have the same armor or have TIS targeting system, But they did have the 105MM and stabilization system that made it better than the T72 the Iranians were using. We even trained Iraqi soldiers at Ft. Knox on how to use it. All of these were destroyed by the end of the first Gulf war.) I have never read anything crediable about the U.S ever giving NBC weapons to the Iraqi government. Even then I can’t see anyone thinking it was ever Okay to use them on the Kurds.
Just my points.
@31 — do some reading. those are just gross snapshots of acts done in the name of Christ. start with Constantine, read about some Popes in the 900s – 1100s (and beyond) and think through to how churches (Catholic/Protestants) have protected their sexual predators instead of allowing the law to.
you may not be that type of Christian, but horrible acts have been committed for millenia in the name of Christ.
@32 — WTFrak? It’s only the fundamentalist elements of religions that seek a theocracy. Think Islam. Think the fundies here. Government should be secular. Period.
The bottom line is this is an ideological fight between Universal Human Rights and Islamic Law. It can be only won at the ideological level.
Avoidswork;
You said horrible acts have been committed for millenia in the name of Christ.
Christianity did not develop a militant streak until the middle ages. That’s hardly ‘millennia’.
Religious people have committed hideous atrocities in the name of religion. But so have fundamentalist secularists in the name of secularism, and though they have had less time to prove their mettle in this area, they have proved it amply. If religious belief is not synonymous with good behavior, neither is absence of belief, to put it mildly.
The truth of the matter is that history records mass slaughter has been practiced more effectively by radical secularists using industrial methods of extermination than theists.
The vast majority of the weapons that Iraq had was soviet built, but in the 80’s we did give the Iraqi’s a lot of our equipment, including M1 Tanks
Nope; Irak got zero M1s, F15s or F16s. You won’t see any mention of them, you won’t see any photo of an Iraki soldier with an M16 and that even if ypu go into the paper archives ( a lot harder to falsify) of newspaperrs in countries hostile or mildly hostile to America (ie out of reach of CIA’s long arm). They weren’t mentioned during the Iran-Irak war and they weren’t mentioned in the months and weeks before Desert Storm when it was feared Irak would launch a preemptive attack and pundits (in those countries not friendly to America) were discussing how to stop iraki tank wave ever mentionned T55s, T72s never M1s. Same thing for the Air force. Quite simply these M1s and F16s in Iraki hands didn’t exist and when you comb Iraki foreign trade data in the 80 you will see looooots of weapon buying to Soviet Union and China, less but still significant trade with France and near zero trade with US and UK. Not even enough to buy more than a couple used M1s without spare parts. The only military aid given by US to Irak was intelligence at a time it look Irak was in danger of being conquered by Iran.
The Church and the West in general indeed should have apologized (as the Church did) for incidents that occurred over the course of the Crusades–not a tenth as many as Islam owes for similar incidents during its overrunning and occupation of the Christian Middle East and North Africa, but some. What we owe ZERO apologies for, however, are the Crusades themselves. The Crusaders went seeking nothing but lands viciously (and only recently) wrested from Christendom, and if they were wrong to do so, how much wronger were the Muslim armies occupying them?
There’s not a square inch of Muslim land that wouldn’t be a better place today if the Christian Crusaders had conquered and succeeded in holding it.
We all know what happened in Jerusalem when the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem but these were the rules of the game in these times. Taking a city by storm was a long, bllody, messy affair and in addition to exasperation between full soldiers, the leaders wanted to ensure that cities would think it twice before resisting. So, if the city didn’t resist its inhabitants could expect they would get away with a little pluder here and there, if it resisted but ended surrendering then it was frequnet for the entire popolation being deported. If it was taken by storm then Vae Victis (Woe to the Vanquished). This was the rule when Christians were fighting Christians, when Christians were fighting Muslims and when Muslims were fighting Muslims.
We are told that Muslims behaved when they conquered Jerusalem the first time but in fact Jerusalem had surrendered without resistance. In Caesarea (weel before the Crusades) who was taken by storm by the Muslims the scenes of horror made those in the conquest of Jerusalem by the Crusaders look mild, and about the surrender of “Saint John of Acre” the Muslim chronicler tells with delight “the proud women of the Franks learned humiliation”. In other words they were sold as slaves and raped by their masters.
@36 — you might want to research starting around the time of Constantine before you say that it started with the Crusades… there was virulent and violent acts committed agains non-Christians.
Again, any fundie of any faith ruins the meaning of the faith.
@39 — you may want to read up on rape, slavery and women in the Old Testament…
Now, what types of terrorism, etc. have been committed by secularists?
Iran, the Mid-East Elephant
In many respects, perceptions of Iran parallel the ancient parable of how 6 blind men describe an elephant based solely on touching one part of the animal.
The man who felt the broad side of the elephant thought it must be a wall, the guy who felt the trunk thought they had confronted a snake, the tusks must be spears, the knee must be a tree, the ear must be a fan, the tail must be a rope.
They’re all reasonable and honest mistakes for the unsighted although I would think that if nothing else the elephant’s elephanty odor should at least have convinced their olfactory senses it was one smelly wall, snake, etc., but that’s just an opinion.
There’s a lot to be said for that metaphor as it applies to how world leaders perceive the West’s and particularly the United States’ attitudes toward Iran, the threats posed by that nation, and how to deal with the ancient land of Persia in the twenty-first century.
It’s no great revelation that the man re-elected president of Iran last June, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, in an election that would have made Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro proud, is a raving lunatic with as much popular support as Pol Pot had back in his Cambodian heyday. . .
(Read more at http://www.genelalor.com/blog1/?p=1448)
Now, what types of terrorism, etc. have been committed by secularists?
Robespierre was a secularist. Guillotine was the lesser of his crimes ten thousand victims). Genocide in Vendee is less knonw despite amounting to 200,00..
Stalin was a secularist. Like Hitler, Like Mao. Like Saddam.
1. Ruvy: “If you want more Christians in the Middle East, you can start by having all those proselytizers move from OUR country, Israel – where they are not wanted and lucky we do not decide to kill them….”
Note to non-Jews: Ruvy is obviously a Hamas plant to discredit the Jews. Please disregard her.
2. wondering: “If you have read the Quran of the muslims, then you know there is no such thing as peace. They must ALWAYS have war.”
And the 20th century proves it! Think of all the Muslim wars as opposed to the peace and harmony of Christian nations.
JFM,
I personaly have a picture of an Iraqi aiming an American M4, But that’s due to me handing it to him to prove he still couldn’t hit the target. So it doesn’t disprove your point about not finding a picture of Iraqi with a M16. But I still have one using an M4.
I know nothing about the U.S ever giving the Iraqis jets (nor did I ever mention anything about jets or M16′s). From what I stated before and from what I saw, the vast majority of equipment was from former and current comunist countries. The information I have about the U.S giving and training Iraqis on M1 was taught to me at Ft. Knox when I went through basic training in 1995. Several instructors made this accusation and some claimed they even taught them. That is where my info came from on that subject.
Other point, I can’t imagine a person like Saddam could honestly beleve in a god, but durring the last interview Dan Rather did with Saddam right before the invasion in 2003, Saddam at least talked and acted like he had found Allah. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/02/26/60II/main542151.shtml
“Now, what types of terrorism, etc. have been committed by secularists?”
rofl.
Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Castro, asspirate extraordinaire Che…take your pick…you got hundreds of millions of dead people to choose from.
I personaly have a picture of an Iraqi aiming an American M4
An M4? It is supposed to have been designed in the 90s.
the last interview Dan Rather did with Saddam right before the invasion in 2003, Saddam at least talked and acted like he had found Allah.
Allah has ever been a very convenient God for ambitious leaders. Adolf Hitler lamented Franck victory at Poitiers because “once they had been strengthened with Islam and the doctrine of Jihad and given their racial superiority they would have quickly rejected Arab domination and after that would have conquered the world”. Before Desert Storm Saddam thought that awakening religious zeal in the Iraki people could serve him so teh regime suddenly became Islam-friendly instead of relatively secular like previously. I doubt Saddm was sincere but anyway a “God” who orders the conquest of the world and a religion who tells Arabs are Herrensvolk (cf Haddits like “Treat the Arab like an Arab and the mixed-blood as a mixed blood: the Arab is entitled to two-shares and the mixed blood to one” or “Arabs are the best of men, Kuraaichites, Muhammad’s tribe, the best of Arabs and so on until Muhammad”) played well with his doctrine.
@40 you may want to read up on rape, slavery and women in the Old Testament
In case you haven’t noticed the Old Testament is basically a history book (and archeological findings say Jewish past was far less bloody than depicted in the Bible. Perhaps Hebrews wanted to frighten their enemies). It tells “we did this and that” it doesn’t tell “we did this and that and it was right, fair and good” even when it was supposedly done at God’s orders. Also in Rabinic Judaism (Sadducean Judaism disappeared with the destruction of the Temple by the Romans) Old Testament is not the single source of doctrine.
Muslim tradition tells: “Muhammad had a dream sent by a Allah, (a dream, how convenient nobody can check) telling him {a tribe who has signed a treaty with the Muslims is going to break it | he is allowed to marry the wife of his stepson | he is allowed to consummate marriage with a nine years old} and thus Muhammad {violates the treaty, launches a surprise attack on the tribe, gets 20% of the booty women included, tortures the males until they tell where their riches are hidden and the fairest of the women suddenly falls in love with Muhammad (yeah, right) so he immediately has sex with her with the corpses of her relatives still warm | marries his stepdaughter | has sex with the nine year old }” and then tells “that it was the virtuous thing that Muhammad is a beacon between men, the perfect man to be imitated in everything. See the difference?
JFM
still in 1990 US provided $1,652,000 of “weapons” to Irak
4. An American company, Pfaulder Corporation of Rochester, New York, supplied the Iraqis with a blueprint in 1975, enabling them to construct their first chemical warfare plant. The plant was purchased in sections from Italy, West Germany and East Germany and assembled in Iraq. It was located at Akhashat in north-western Iraq, and the cost was around $50 million for the plant and $30 million for the safety equipment.
8. France provided Saddam with extended-range Super Etendard aircraft capable of hitting Iranian oil facilities in the lower Gulf.
10. Iraq was also able to buy French-built Mirage-1 aircraft and Gazelle and Lynx helicopters from the British company Westland.
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51/040.html
Robespierre was a secularist. Guillotine was the lesser of his crimes ten thousand victims). Genocide in Vendee is less knonw despite amounting to 200,00..
Robespierre was a Deist
Vendeans were against “levée en masse” for conscription, before the fifties none had heard of genocide, only when Holocaust was labelled so. Though the apparition of Genocide for Vendée war come mainly form the historian Reynald Secher, (he is the one who also viewed our Revolution as an effect of “marxism” impulse and inspiration, bizarre, no ?) though very controversed by universities researchers. that hold it more as a civil war with a harsh repression.
35 to 40 000 persons were guillotined for the whole France during Terror period (16 594 were sentenced to death penalty by courts trials, the rest were victims of summary executions
47. JFM:
Christian tradition tells: “Jesus had a throw down with the Devil during his 40 days alone in the desert.
“Alone” . . . how convenient, no way to check. You sound like a Muslim.
You’re funniest when you write about things you don’t understand or know about. Chapeau, it takes a lot of hutzspah to play the idiot as skillfully as you do.
Toady:
Byzantine Empire fell first to the ARABS in the Eight Century CE. It did not fall to the Turks until 1299! Almost six centuries later!
Uh, the fact the India was HINDU before it was conquered by Moslems was part of my point. But it is also worth noting that while the bulk of the Islamification of India came with the Mogul conquest (Moslem Timmurids/Mongols) parts of India (in the west, now Pakistan) were first conquered by the Ummayaids, Arabs.
And the point of the whole thing I wrote is based in this: One of the excuses I read about for the Jihadists is that they are looking to be “authentic.” And my argument is if they are looking to be “authentic” there are other, more authentic ways, to be authentic…
And the West does indeed have NOTHING to apologize for about the Crusades. They happened CENTURIES ago. How many people out there were a part of them? We are a different world now… Or at least we try to be. But we keep seeing this the asinine moral relativism that equates the WEST with all that is EVIL and the poor Moslems with all the is VICTIMHOOD… Give me a break.
And if the Moslem World expects the WEST to feel contrite about the Crusades, well, that is ridiculous. The history of the world is written in blood–and the Moslems did their fair share of writing in blood, so to pull this petulant, “You were mean to us eight hundred to a thousand years ago…” is just ridiculous. Not only that, but the moral equivalency of Western warfare with Moslem atrocities?
And have the Moslems “apologized” for the massacres of Jews in Granada in 1066? In Fez in 1465? In Baghdad in 1848? How about of the Armenians from 1894-1896? And don’t forget what Moslems wrought against other Moslems in Hama in 1982 or Halabja in 1988…
Christian tradition tells: “Jesus had a throw down with the Devil during his 40 days alone in the desert.
“Alone” . . . how convenient, no way to check. You sound like a Muslim.
Christ spent 40 days in the desert as the first step towards crucifixion. Muhammad’s “dreams” were about allowing him to do something forbidden he wanted to do. Like having sex with a nine years old.
Some things never change like the Ferdonnets and the Tokyo Roses trying to undermine the good guys.
JFM
funny good guis, aren’t they ? that use the same means as Göbels’s trainees towards us, yeah, something repeated a few times has no chance to impress the minds, but a thousand times, sure, it leaves indelible marcks
I wonder what you’re gaining, certainly not recognition as being such good guis these days
you aren’t someone that isn’t lineable, I must keep that in mind
Marie Claude
I thought you would be happy. I, of all people, saying eth French were the good guys.
For the US exports to Irak: 1,600,000$ in a year? That allows you to buy a single M1 tank every four years (6,000,000)
Now about the Vendee, the general in charge of the repression reported to the Convention: “I have no survivor to reproach myself for. Men, woman or child I have exterminated evrything”. BTW don’t take this as my usual anti-French mode (victims were French remember?). Just that as soon as they got a parcel of power the unbelievers were doing quite sickening things.
In Dostoyevsky’s “The Possessed” Stavroguin says: “When God doesn’t exist everything is permitted”
JFM, of course it’s reconforting when you’re saying that we aren’t what most of the rightwingers think we are. If I contradict you, it’s because you made volontary or not an error, in the occurence that we were among the main arms suppliers to Saddam, which is untrue according to the many reports on arms sales of the era.
Naturally that in the Vendée war there were some “horrors”, like in most of the wars (ie Nazis shotting and burning whole villages in France while retreating) Though in the first place the war was decided because Vendeans refused conscription and were hiding in countrysides, making a kind of guerilla. Though this isn’t what we usely would label as genocide that the atheistic revolutionnaires would have forecasted against such religious people. The fact that Vendeans rebelled against Paris centralised power, was due to deceiption, serfs and poor people that hoped for getting more rights saw the bourgeoises buying all the lands, and that their conditions didn’t improve. Naturally the church and the nobliaux around were supporting the revolt and took the opportunity to push their agendas, more for their sake than for the popular classes.
This is why it was more a civil war. Wether the revolutionnaires were athees or not, I think it didn’t play a role, it was a central power that was repressing a recalcitrant province. Probably if its frames had been nobles, some war rules would have been more respected, but thesenew war chiefs were some kind of general Bigeard in Algeria ! though guiltinesses must be shared with the stubborn Vendean responsibles too, that pushed indigent people to rebellion.