Do America’s Policies Create Terrorists?
For all their philosophical differences, Republican/Libertarian Congressman Ron Paul and President Obama have found an area of agreement: terrorism is a reaction to flawed American foreign policy. To them, it is a political reaction that then lends itself to extremism, rather than an ideology that makes followers view current events with as much perversion as they view everything else.
On December 28, during a debate on Larry King Live, Paul said that “they are terrorists because we are occupiers.” On January 5, President Obama said that Guantanamo Bay was “an explicit rationale for the formation of al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula,” the affiliate responsible for the Christmas airliner plot. This actually isn’t accurate, but this statement still substantiates the arguments of terrorists that they are simply responding to the actions of the U.S. and the key to stopping them is to stop provoking their anger. The truth is that al-Qaeda was already in Yemen before the controversy over the prison even began, and the terrorist group was targeting us long before Guantanamo Bay was even cited as an example of injustice.
Americans, surrounded for the most part by debate based on rational-thinking philosophy, struggle to understand totalitarian ideologies like that of radical Islam. In America, people generally react with violence only under the most extreme stress and provocation, so there is an inclination to assume that we did something to spark this reaction. This leads to the mistaken but common belief that somehow anger at American policy naturally results in terrorism as an act of final resort to change it, but political opposition does not translate into supporting theocracy, the killing of civilians, and the other extremist tenets of radical Islam.
Most of the world opposes American policy, yet this disagreement does not turn into suicide bombings and beheadings outside of the Islamic world. Without this inherently dangerous ideology in place, this dispute does not result in extremism of this kind. Without the ideology glorifying such attacks, this progression does not occur, and even if our foreign policy was changed to not be so “aggressive” in the eyes of the world, the nature of the ideology means the end result would be the same. For all his claims that he’s simply trying to stop American imperialism, Osama bin Laden himself admits this. Let’s look at how he handled the question of whether he was solely motivated by politics, as quoted in Raymond Ibrahim’s The Al Qaeda Reader.
Bin Laden says:
Our talks with the infidel West and our conflict with them ultimately revolve around one issue — one that demands our total support, with power and determination, with one voice — and it is: does Islam, or does it not, force people by the power of the sword to submit to its authority corporeally if not spiritually?
He then answers his own question:
Yes. There are only three choices in Islam: [1] either willing submission [conversion]; [2] or payment of the jizya, through physical, though not spiritual, submission to the authority of Islam; [3] or the sword — for it is not right to let him [an infidel] live. The matter is summed up for every person alive: either submit, or live under the suzerainty of Islam, or die.
Before radical Muslims found out how much fun they could have slaughtering innocent Americans, they were slaughtering other Muslims for centuries. Do we really need to go over the millions of Muslim lives that have been lost over the centuries in the struggle between Sunnis and Shias? In fact, even today in Iraq, more Muslims have been killed by other Muslims than have been killed by Americans. The quasi Sunni-Shia civil war that erupted in Iraq after the American invasion was NOT a result of the American invasion in and of itself, but the result of a centuries-old hatred between the two religious sects. Saddam Hussein prevented that civil war from taking place through sheer terror and brutal force, but once he was gone the two sides gladly resumed their blood feud.
The point is, these people have been killing each other for centuries. The United States is simply a reason for radical Muslims on both sides to continue this bloody conflict. America is a means to their ends and they know it. If this isn’t true, then what was their excuse for attacking us BEFORE 9/11? There was no Guantanamo Bay then and we barely had any major land forces in that part of the world (certainly nothing compared to the toops we had stationed in Europe as part of NATO). And even if we closed Guantanamo Bay tomorrow, do you really and honestly believe that these same murderers will all of a sudden wake up one day and love us? Anybody who believes that (our president included) should have their heads examined.
Radical Muslims have been around for centuries and they will not go away simply by closing a prison. They will continue their war against the West because they need a scapegoat, somebody to blame, for all of thier greed, corruption, and failed nation states. They are the lowest form of life on this planet, certainly no better than the Nazis, and the only thing they understand is a crushing military defeat. If we prove to them that we will continue to pursue and kill them, while keeping open prisons like Guantanamo JUST FOR THEM, they may get the message that they should leave the United States alone, and go back to killing each other.
During his abortive 2008 run for the Republican Presidential nomination, Paul was adamant that the “real reason” we had trouble in the MidEast was simply that (a) Israel exists and (b) It’s All Our Fault that it does. Never mind that Israel is a sovereign nation whose re-establishment was the result of a U.N. resolution, and before that the Balfour Declaration, and that the Israelis have fought with courage and determination to both make their nation a success- and keep it alive- from day one. He seems to honestly believe that if we simply turn our back on Israel, it will cease to exist, and all will be well between us and the Islamists.
Never mind that no foreign nation would ever trust us as an ally again, and that they would be justified in not doing so. This was repeatedly pointed out to Paul. As a hardcore paleo-isolationist, his response boiled down to “so what?”
It’s difficult to determine whether Paul is a dogmatic ideologue, or simply an idiot. (My guess is, probably a bit of both.) Either way, you may notice that he didn’t even get close to the nomination. This would tend to show that Republican voters are smarter than the MSM generally credits them for being.
As for the Islamists’ take on us, it’s very simple. Everything we did in Kosovo, Afghanistan, etc., was not something they need feel grateful for. As “dhimi”, it was our responsibility to our natural rulers (themselves) to come to their aid when required. However, it in no way requires them to do anything except what their belief system (as they see it) demands- namely, either subjugate us or kill us.
In short, the correct answer from the Islamists’ POV is, “Thanks for all your help- but we’re still going to kill you.”
Since neither Ron Paul nor The One seem to be able to comprehend this, I can only assume that neither one of them really understands the history or philosophy of Islamism. Perhaps we need an “Islamism for Dummies” book for the pair of them.
clear ether
eon
Wake up America the problem is ISLAM not RADICAL Islam, not FUNDAMENTAL Islam not MISUNDERSTOOD Islam . Just ISLAM pure and simple it needs no fanatics or misunderstanders or terrorists for it to be a promoter of Hypocrisy, Deceit, Violence, Misogyny and the will for World Domination. Its all there in the Koran just like it was all there in Meine Kampf just READ it.
There is another more pragmatic explanation. Islam is a term that covers dozens of sects, each claiming to be THE TRUTH. These differences caused them to spend their time killing each other.
They have one common belief – Islam will conquer the world. However, for this to happen, Muslims must be united. Since there is no way to eliminate the violently disputed religious differences, there must be another uniting force – a common enemy. Enter the Great Satan.
As to why we are the enemy, it is simple. If you want to hate someone, one reason is as good as another.
Violent supremecism is part of the DNA of this ’religion’ of Islam. Violence was practiced by Muhammed, commanded by Allah, codified in the Koran, and exercised by the Ummah wherever the Ummah exist for 1,400 years.
In the early 1800’s, the United States faced their first enemy and engaged in our first wars. The enemy was ISLAM. The Islamic governments of North Africa were raiding Americas unarmed merchant vessels, capturing and enslaving the crews, stealing their cargos, and blackmailing the United States for ransom. This wall all done in the name of Islam, with Koranic justification
Some of the United States most brilliant leaders, indeed the founding fathers, had to deal with this Islamic terror. Here’s what they encountered:
In 1786 Thomas Jefferson, then US ambassador to France, and John Adams, then US Ambassador to Britain, met in London with Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja, the Dey’s ambassador to Britain, in an attempt to negotiate a peace treaty based on Congress’ vote of funding to pay ransom. These two future Presidents later reported to Congress the reasons for the Muslims’ hostility towards America, a nation with which they had no previous contacts. They said:
“…that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman (Muslim) who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise.”
This was:
- long before the ‘Great Satan’ United States ever had a foreign policy
- long before the United States was guilty of exporting hamburgers and Britney Spears
- long before there were ANY overseas American military bases
- long before America began its supposed routine ‘brutal oppression’ of peoples around the world.
These attacks against the fledgling United States were motivated by Muhammed, inspired by Allah, and commanded in the Koran. It is well known that Thomas Jefferson owned a Koran. Why? Because he was trying to understand the enemy – he was trying to understand Islam.
We must understand taht there is a titanic clash of civilizations going on. It is the Buddhist/Hindu/Judeo-Christian free world pitted against the Islamic totalitarianism world. It is Dar al-Islam fighting to force Dar al-Harb into submission.
Freedom or Submission.
That is what it’s really all about. I will not submit.
~ The Infidel Alliance
How dooes Ron Paul account for the centuries old Islamic Jihad against India?
The simple fact is that we are in a oil revenue financed, technologically assisted ISLAMIC WORLD WAR.
Lets look at the facts. Islam against:
- the Catholics in the Philippines (routine slaughter & beheadings)
- the Christians in Indonesia (routine slaughter & beheadings)
- Australian tourists in Bali (blown up…twice)
- the Buddhists in Thailand (routine slaughter & beheadings)
- the Hindus & Sikhs in India (hundreds of years battling the Islamic Jihad)
- the Jews in Mumbai (slaughtered)
- the Zoroastrians & Baha’i in Iran (virtually exterminated)
- Islamic converts to Christianity in Afghanistan (death fatwa)
- ancient Buddhist statues in Bamiyan, Afghanistan (blown up)
- the Chaldean Christians in Iraq (routine persecution, slaughter & church burnings)
- the Jews in Israel (routine attacks against civilians, threat of 2nd genocide)
- the Jews in Yemen (nearly exterminated)
- S. Korean & German tourists in Yemen (blown up)
- the Coptic Christians in Egypt (routine persecution, slaughter & church attacks)
- the Christians & animists in Sudan (genocide)
- the Christians in Kenya (constant Jihadist threat from Obama’s homies)
- the Christians in Nigeria (routine Jihadist attacks)
- U.S. embassies in Tanzania & Kenya (blown up)
- the athiests in Europe (the prime target)
- the native French in Paris (torched car terrorism)
- Jews in Paris (read the grisly story of Ilan Halimi, a Jewish shop clerk who was kidnapped, tortured and killed in 2006)
- the native Swedes in Malmo (Islamic rape brigades)
- the native Dutch in Amsterdam (routinely terrorized)
- Dutch politicians (Geert Wilders & Ayyan Hirsi Ali – death fatwa)
- Dutch cinematographers (Theo vanGogh savagely murdered by an Islamist in broad daylight)
- Dutch cartoonists (Kurt Westergaard – death fatwa)
- Dutch newspaper editors (Flemming Rose, Jyllands-Posten’s culture editor – death fatwa)
- Train commuters in Spain (blown up)
- Tube commuters in London (blown up)
- Airports in Scotland (blown up)
- Jews in Argentina (blown up)
- Jews in Caracas (blown up)
- Twin Tower office workers in N.Y. (blown up – twice)
- Defense workers in the Pentagon (blown up – airliner jihad)
- Army/Navy military recruiters in Little Rock (gunned down by an Islamist)
- Soldiers in F.t Hood Texas (gunned down by an Islamist)
- Pedestrians at the U. of N. Carolina (run down with an SUV by Islamist)
- Journalists like Daniel Pearl (savagely decapitated by Islamists)
- Nick Berg, Kim Sung-il, Piotr Stanczyk, Jack Hensley, Eugene Armstrong, Paul Johnson (savagely decapitated by Islamists)
- Jewish centers in Seattle (slaughtered by Islamist Jihadist)
- Jewish centers in Toronto (slaughtered by Islamist Jihadist)
-Delta Airline passenger (Islamic underwear jihadist)
And on, and on, and on……….
The reality is that we are facing Islam against everyone, everything, everywhere that is not Islamic.
It is Dar al-Islam against Dar al-Harb. Them against us, not us against them.
THE ISLAMIC WORLD WAR – mandated by Allah & Muhammed in the Koran & Ahadith: Bukhari (8:387) – Allah’s Apostle Muhammed said, “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’”
Let’s face the facts and call it what it is. It is not a ‘War on Terror’ against a few ragtag misunderstanders of Islam.
It is nothing less than: THE ISLAMIC WORLD WAR.
THE ISLAMIC WORLD WAR – Muhammed’s bloody legacy.
~ The Infidel Alliance
The triumph of Islam is inevitable.
While there is still time, renounce your false religions. Embrace Islam now and live in peace in submission to the will of Almighty Allah (swt).
Your grandchildren will be Muslim.
Allahu akbar!
Islamic fundamentalism and its jihadist violence is due to and only to, causes that are internal to both the Islamic ideology AND the political infrastructure of the Islamic nations.
1)If you read the Qur’an and the Hadiths, you might come to the conclusion that Islam is an economic and political reaction of a pastoral nomadic economy of the 7th c…to encroachment on its land base by settling agriculturalists. Pastoral economies require a large open land base for their herds; settled agriculturalists remove that ‘vacant and open’ land base for their crops.
And that is exactly what was going on in the 7thc, as the Roman roads and markets promoted settlements and as Christianity promoted getting along with other peoples rather than fighting them.
The Islamic ideology has very little to say about religion and most of that is copied from the Judaic, but it says a great deal about how to live as a tribe under siege and how to conquer other peoples.
2)After the 14th c repression of Islamic expansion, Islamic peoples settled into a stable, no-growth local sustenance type of horticulture. They were intellectually frozen in the 7th c, with no science, no technology, no industrilism, and no curiosity about such a realm.
And importantly, they retained their old political and social infrastructure. Tribal. A tribal political system is fixed. There are two classes both fixed/hereditary. There is no flexible middle class based on individual entrepreneurship. The elite class rules; the mass is ruled. This is a very stable, no argument system in a no-change, rural, non-adaptive lifestyle.
WWI and II changed that with the devt of cars and planes – relying on oil. BUT, the Middle East nations, uneducated, had no technology; they could not exract or process the oil, and so hired the West to do the work. They did not, even then, educate their people to take over this task.
And note; the political system, that ruling elite, the rest without power to join in to the wealth and make decisions..remained.
BUT – the population exploded exponentially, people moved to the cities – and wanted to have some participation in the growoth of the nation. The elite in power refused to hand over power and enable a middle class. It started to repress the people, using a military (funded by oil) and then, a repressive theocracy. This repression of a middle class – is the real cause of Islamic fascism.
3)The Islamic fascist movt was first, in the late 19th and early 20th c, an attempt to deal with the corruptness of the elite ruling class in these Islamic nations who were reaping billions in wealth from oil,providing minimal housing and care for urbaniztion but – no power, no education, no means to enable this massive new population to work within the new industrialism.
The Islamic fascist movt was FIRST, an attempt to get rid of industrialism and somehow, go back to the assumed purity of an even more rigid Islam.
4)Then the Islamic nation’s elite, seeing this, and unwilling to permit a middle class, ‘educated’ the people to think that all their problem and lack of power was due to the WEST! The Rulers of these ME countries told their people that it was the West that was the cause…[Israel is just a red herring; the Islamic nations don't want a democratic Palestine in their midst].
5) Bush drove the fight back into the Islamic nations. AND, he saw that the real problem in the ME was the dysfunctional political structure: Political Tribalism. Democracy puts political and economic power into the hands of a middle class. So- Iraq was to be the model. Remove a tribal dictator and enable the people to have power.
It is working; Iranians are demanding the sae.
6) But Obama, who lives in an imaginary world, denies the reality of Islamic fascism, thinks that any such attacks are due to the West/USA and ignores the Iranian people’s public desire for democracy…and is actually moving the fight back out of the Islamic nations..and back into the false fight against the West. Obama is actually inciting such attacks by his insistence that jihadism doesn’t exist and that the US behavior must be apologized for!
7)The only way to deal with this ideology is to enable the people to have economic and political power in their own lands. This means that they must defeat and remove the tribal political infrastructure and enable democracy and a middle class. To achieve this, the West has to encourage it(eg in Iran), talk about it as vital, AND, reject multiculturalism completely in all Western nations.
#5/6 Infidel Alliance. Thank you, you said it all. Great post, right on the money.
Policies reflect values, conflicting values can result in terrorist attacks.
This is really the wrong approach for hawks to take first because it’s obviously untrue
“According to the journalist , Yousef mailed letters to various New York newspapers just before the attack, in which he claimed he belonged to ‘Liberation Army, Fifth Battalion’.[7] These letters made three demands:
an end to all US aid to Israel,
an end to US diplomatic relations with Israel,
and a demand for a pledge by the United States to end interference “with any of the Middle East countries’ interior affairs.”
He stated that the attack on the World Trade Center would be merely the first of such attacks if his demands were not met. In his letters Yousef admitted that the World Trade Center bombing was an act of terrorism, but that this was justified because “the terrorism that Israel practices (which America supports) must be faced with a similar one.”"
yeah I didn’t see anything about an islamic caliphate either.
this reminds me of zionists who try and say that, you know everything you know about the israeli palestinian conflict is wrong, there was no one there and the ones who were were horrible anti semites and they drove THEMSELVES off the land and so forth.
the reailty is they drove the people living there out of there to make Israel. the question is what to do about that, if anything. No one with a clue is ever going to agree that the conflict is not real and all jsut arab propaganda. it is what it is
Similarly OF COURSE our foreign policy is the reason terrorists, from richard reid to osama, hate us and attack us. They’ve all stated it numerous times. They want to drive us out of the middle east the way they drove the commies out in the 80′s They weren’t jealous of communism, they hated them because they were RUSSIAN and FOREIGN.
So pajasmedia and others shld acknowledge that what we all knwo is true is true: they were over here because we’re over there on 9/11. and make their arugment that we NEED to be in the middle east because of…whatever our support for Israel, the instability that would arise if the various dictators we support fell. whatever. Just stop insulting our intelligence with stuff like this column. the blowback cat is out of the bag
Without a doubt, Ryan Mauro, you are the dumbest person I have ever seen published on the internet. Congratulations.
#11 lester – the problem with your opinion is that it isn’t based on facts.
That is – why were Islamists attacking the West before Israel existed? Back in the 19th c?[ I suggest you read Wright's The Looming Tower for a history of Al Qaeda.]
And why do Muslims attack Muslims?
And Buddhists? Sikhs? Hindus?
And why do they attack non-Western countries that have nothing to do with Israel?
Have you ever read the Qur’an? I bet you haven’t. The hadiths? I bet you haven’t.
Do you know the history of Muslim militancy beginning in the 7th c? I bet you don’t.
Oh – and why are no Islamic nations, except for Iraq, run democratically? Do you know what happens when a majority of a population are excluded from economic and political power? I bet you don’t.
And has it ever occurred to you that the Islamic nations don’t seem very interested in enabling a Palestinan democracy? Hmm. I wonder why not.
No matter how much we appease them, Islamofascists and domestic fascists will always have some pretext for attacking or undermining our society and its institutions. They hate us, and it’s simply not based on anything specific. The pretexts are ever-shifting and ever-present.
Do America’s policies create terrorists” I’m sure they do. I’m sure it happens in every war. Just like America’s policies created Italian fascists and the German nazis and the Japanese militarists before and during World War Two. I suspect 1944, the last year of the war, saw the biggest recruitment drives for new soldiers in the Axis Powers. And then we dropped the atomic bombs, war over. After reading the 1400 year history of Islam, one discovers it takes very little provocation to provide jihad incentives.
Barack Obama and Ron Paul’s misguided opinions about the reasons for Islam’s hatred of us only demonstrate their supreme lack of knowledge of many things, history being the first on the list. How someone so ignorant of world history in general and American history in specific can hold office is a mystery to me.
Islam is a cult based on hatred, and as such does not qualify as a religion. The world is slowly beginning to understand this and reject it. Their hatred is directed at anyone or anything that doesn’t conform to their warped world view.
etab- muslims solve their problems with violence. we saw that here when Malcolm x was killed by other muslims. were they trying to convert malcolm x to islam?
“And has it ever occurred to you that the Islamic nations don’t seem very interested in enabling a Palestinan democracy? Hmm. I wonder why not”
I couldn’t care less if they want democracy or not. I don’t live there.
the mujahadeen weren’t trying to convert the russians to islam. They were trying to drive them out. They weren’t trying to take convert New York City to Islam on 9/11. they were trying to get us to leave the middle east.
and why shouldn’t we? it’s a hellhole with nothing but pain and misery and no help to us in our new century’s great struggle: economic competition with China.
So again, spare me the islamic caliphate 12 imams stuff and just make your case as to why you think, despite the fact that it’s a huge liabilty in every measurable way, our tax dollars that we work if we are lucky enough to be working should go there?
I’m not saying you should be a non interventionist, just be one in a respectful way without all the foolish propaganda
Hey, bin Laden himself said it best (as seen in this). Take it from the horse’s mouth, not from left/liberals.
lester:
The reason is, because these barbarians dared to lift their hands against civilization, the vilest crime against humanity imaginable; and it is the civilized world’s right, indeed our duty to posterity, to punish their unspeakable insolence until they remember their place.
I don’t care what their excuses and pretexts are- they are completely irrelevant.
I am not as worried about Iraq as I once was (as long as we continue to get out there asap). But my worry (like during vietnam) is that Afghanistan becomes a war of “liberation”. If that happened (or happens) then we lose. Its that simple. No matter what hollywood sells you, we lost vietnam because we failed to recognize it became a war of liberation, not ideology. That is all I will say about that. We should do what we can do. Train their forces, rebuild their country (actually both countries)..then leave….its that simple.
Lester.
What are jihadists aligned with Al Qaeda in Somalia (Al Shabab) trying to achieve?
The death of infidels and apostates and the imposition of a pure islamic state.
What are jihadists aligned with Al Qaeda in Indonesia(Jamaat islamiyah)trying to achieve?
The death of infidels and apostates and the imposition of a pure islamic state.
What were jihadists aligned with Al Qaeda in Afghanistan(the Taliban) trying to achieve?
The death of infidels and apostates and the imposition of a pure islamic state.
What are jihadists like Hizb ut tahrir trying to achieve on the streets of London? (Three guess . . .)
Why did OBL invite us to accept islam when he declared war against us in 1998? Because, Lester, AQ and its ideological kin are engaged in a religious war to reestablish a world-wide Caliphate which must be conducted according to very specific rules laid down by Mohammad in the Quran and hadith, in pursuit of VERY SPECIFIC GOALS laid down by Mohammad in the Quran and the hadith (complete, planet wide submission to islamic law, basically). This is an indesputable fact. They are religiously required to pursue these ends and will find ANY justification to do so. At this point, you are essentially a useful idiot parroting a very liberal, western narrative that has been spoon fed to you by the likes of Code Pink and Answer. Instead of accepting everything you hear in the MSM, you actually need to read and understand what these people think, say (in their OWN languages) and believe. Raymond Ibrahim and The Al Qaeda Reader are essential for understanding the nature of this war and this enemy. You may also want to have a look at the threat assessment drafted by Stephen Coughlin, “To Our Great Detriment”.
THE PREMIER scholar of Deobandi Islam’s advice for muslims living in Great Britain:
“We Must Live in Peace Until Strong Enough to Wage Jihad”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2409833.ece
I am always impressed with the learned posts on this forum…lots of liberal arts PhDs?
However, I can offer a different prospective: I spent several years living and working in the middle east, mainly in Dubai, Oman, & Saudi.I did not have the HUGE benefit of working for a large oil company, as my husband & I were the sole owners of an American construction co.
The middle eastern movers & shakers are savvy..they’re sophisticated and pro-western. So I spent a lot of time talking with the shopkeepers… rugs from Iran, Afghanistan, & Pakistan, fabrics, gold jewelry, etc.
I always asked the shopkeepers “WHY” they hate us…and I ALWAYS got the same answer: they don’t want their women being influenced by us!!!! Pure & simple, that’s it!!!! And of course the satellite showings of our R ( and even X) rated movies don’t help.
These intelligent PJ posts are thoughtful but…It’s sex…pure & simple. They don’t want their WOMEN “getting crazy western ideas”. I’m not being simplistic…I heard this same answer over & over.
Lester:
By happenstance, Robert Spencer posted on this topic just a short time ago. It may also help.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/01/in-why-are-they-at.html#comments
Great article ryan
REZA: “The triumph of Islam is inevitable.”
Nothing is “inevitable” in history! Even if the dark ages will come from that entire struggle as this “Reza” seems to suggest (but I doubt, because humans are NOT robots as his “ideology” clearly assumes…) even then it will not last forever! Even after barbarians overthrow the Rome, and dark ages came, something good WAS created eventually after that 1000 years “plague” was overcome and Renaissance succeeded!
“…renounce your false religions…”
We do, “reza,” ALL religions, including yours (and I would even say) PARTICULARLY yours IS FALSE AS HELLLLL!!! Simple reason: complete distortion of REALITY (if you can grasp such concept at all!)
“…live in peace…”
Live in peace? WHAT “peace” you mean?? The submission is not a peace; it is a PIECE OF SHIT (swt!) not worth living for!! And well, since we all are destined to die one day, sooner or later, (but REMEMBER: there is no such a thing as a “paradise” with 70+ “virgins”!) in that respect we will have all peace of the cemetery one day. But until that will happen, as long as LIFE is the value in this world (in opposition to your ideology of nihilism where ONLY death is the “value,”), it is worth living for and until it lasts I will oppose that collectivist ideology of yours (and similar to yours) with all my effort and strength!
“…Your grandchildren will be Muslim”
I care less for that! If the current stupidity of this world will go further in that, wrong direction, then they will have only THEMSELVES to blame!
“(swt)”
What is that? Shortcut for “Switzerland”?… Seriously: all backward “cultures” have common tendency of masturbating themselves around their “higher knowledge” of acronyms, as if they assume that that by itself is adding some “value” to their voodoo-gibberish! Advice: if you want to be better understood, never use acronyms which non-invited people could have hard time to decipher, otherwise you are just talking to yourself.
So, according to your crooked world-view, we suppose to subjugate ourselves to your Al-lah (read: YOU, as the master of the collective!) because you swear “Allahu-this or that” with some “SWT” added in parenthesis? Read my lips: GTH!! KMA!!!
–
Well, now, I am ready to your “fatwa,” but intimidated I will be not! And if you dare to come to me with blind force, you will have my answer with REASON AND FORCE!!
Yes, US policies create terrorists. Sending food to let them grow up big and strong to carry AK47′s and rpgs, not shooting back when they hide among their women and children, taking prisoners (and letting them go), allowing the terrorists sympathising press to operate in the war zones. These are some of the US policies that “create terrorists.”
sorry, Lester, but your post is ignorant. You show no knowledge of history or the realities of political structure and how a certain demographic size population MUST move out of the restrictions of a tribal politicl mode and into a democratic mode.
If it doesn’t – you get fascism. In this case, Islamism. So, you OUGHT to care about democracy in these areas because its lack is the root cause of Islamic terrorism.
And who is talking about converting people to Islam? I’m not. I’m talking about political and economic power in their own nations- and tribal politics prevents the majority of citizens from having such power. I’m not talking about conversions; that’s, frankly, a secondary issue, a RESULT of the lack of power in their own nation. ..that would require a more open society and a reform of the Islamic political/societal structure.
What Islamic caliphate 12 imams? I didn’t say anything about this. I suggest you read what I wrote before you opine your opinions.
MsMensa #22 did you notice that this attitude towards women was 19th c patriarchy? Women in this view are not equal to men. Such a patriarchal attempt to dominate is hardly enough reason to hate and attack the West…for it’s ‘their’ women who want equality. And quite possibly,such a desire comes from the minds of the women…who can think for themselves.
msmensa- alot of people in this country don’t like those aspects of american culture either. genuine social conservatism does exist, maybe not where you are specifically
omar- Mr SPencer is really missing Pat Buchanans point. No one is saying that islam isn’t in and of itself violent or that western civilization isn’t quite obviously better in every measurable way than islamic civilization. Israel, for example,have a much better society culture/ whatever than virtually all of their neighbors. that’s not why muslims hate them and why terrorism towards them exists. it exists because to them israel is nothign more than europeans who came in and drove their people out and drive more and more of them out.
So again, no one doubts that the sort of religous states either currently in place or imagined by muslims and extreme prohibitions on vice and lack of economy are dumb and backward.
the point is these people are tapping into the LARGER muslim worlds resentment of the US. It’s political and religious and cultural and everyting else!
bottom line: not just al queda but virtually al muslims want us out of their countries. it’s probably the one that that unites the various sunni shia secular religous and whatnot groups there.
America is worth fighting over. if al queda wants to take over America they will have a problem on their hands.
the middle east is not worth fighting over. it’s backwards and the economies stink and the people who aren’t religious nuts are corrupt to the gills.
China. tha’ts the focus. islam isn’t our problem and anyone who tries to drag us into their war with them is a liability to our country and should be viewed as such. we need ot think of our own long term survival. maintaining a presence in the middle east is not paramount to that survival and is in fact a massive detriment to it.
I just read an excellent comment on Melanie Phillip’s Spectator site. It was just too good not to share (Poster is C.Gee; Time tag of 1/16/10 9:30 p.m.):
“Derek BLADES:
You say:
“President Obama understands the fundamental truth about Islamic terror groups. They are to a large extent motivated by the West’s shameful support of Israeli aggression against Arabs.”
This is a “fundamental truth”?
The presence of the infidels on holy Islamic land, Saudi Arabia, which was cleared of Jews by Mohammed and his successors long before the Saud family was presented with the kingdom by the West, was a grievance articulated early on by Bin Laden and other Al Qaeda leaders. Later, they added the Palestinians’ grievance against Israeli “colonialism”, knowing it would gain them some sympathy from the mostly leftist anti-Israel/pro-Arab factions in the West, and help them recruit Western or educated Muslims who might need a “human rights” justification in addition to religious fervor to join the cause. (The ACLU “anti-colonialist” defense sounds good for their day in court.) But, make no mistake, the cause is a religious one. Jews – whatever pre-Islamic conquest claims they have to Israel – are on holy Islamic soil, which extends beyond Mecca and the Arabian peninsula to any land conquered by Islam at any time. Islamists do not give a stuff about aggression against Arabs (or Muslims of their own or other sects). Islamic terrorists – Hamas – despise the PLO and its ostensible ambition to set up a secular (socialist) Arab state. Arab secular states, or insufficiently Islamic states are also enemies. Hamas wants the land for Islam. Hizzbollah wants Lebanon and Israel for Islam. Iran funds terrorism to spread Islam. Political Islam is indifferent to state boundaries and ethnicity and terrorists acting in its name are indifferent to the nationality or ethnicity of those they murder.
Arab states, in the cause of their own national ambitions were the aggressors against Israel in 1948. Britain (part of the West) connived at it. Arab nationalism then was a useful stalking horse for Arab Islamists (the Mufti of Jerusalem), but is now its target. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria (all Arab states set up by the West, all enemies of Israel) are more afraid of Islam than Israel.
So what is “shameful” about the West’s (belated, wavering and grudging) support of Israel’s self-defense against Islamic imperialism?
The “fundamental truth” about Islamic terrorists is that they are motivated by Islam, which gives them better authority to erase Israel – or any state – than championing Arab refugees displaced in by wars waged by Arabs. Islam also stirs the heart and soul of the Islamic terrorist far more successfully than the “plight” of the Palestinians who are despised by their fellow-Arabs, and who, as eternal wards of the West, are richer and enjoy more civil rights than many devout Muslims in and out of the Middle East.”
Oops! Here’s the link:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/5706956/the-suborning-of-american-intelligence.thtml
Lester #28 writes: a lot of people in this country don’t like those aspects of American culture either, genuine social conservatism does exist, maybe not where you are specifically.
Lester, I don’t think you’ve ever been to the middle east. I don’t know of any American areas where women are covered from head to toe in black robes, with only small fabric slits for their eyes. I don’t know anywhere in America where a woman can’t let a man (other than a relative) see her FACE!! I have never seen a doctor’s waiting room where women (hidden in those black robes) wait out in the hall…because there’s a MAN sitting in the dr’s waiting room!
Do understand that these Arab women are NOT subservient slaves to the men. In their homes, the women RULE!!!! (That female POWER was a big surprise to me.) The hatred of our western culture is caused by our PUBLIC sexuality for any and all men to see. A forearm, bangs, an ankle…heaven forbid!!!!! Under those black robes are Arab women with heavy make-up and breast implants!!!!! That’s OK with the men, as long as no other man ever sees them!
A huge reason for their hatred of us is that their young girls LIKE our western culture and frequently fight with their parents over wanting to copy us. So in the parents’ minds, THE WEST is to blame!
Dear #31 “Msmensa”,
Thank you for exposing another of the pathologies of Islam – misogyny. I have been to many Islamic countries, and have seen with my own eyes what you are talking about. But your comments are so inane they must be addressed.
To say “these Arab women are NOT subservient slaves to the men. In their homes, the women RULE!!!!” is patently stupid. That is like saying inmates are not jailed, in their locked cells inmates RULE!
“Msmensa”, do you realize that you are defending sexual apartheid?
Please…shut up, put on your niqab, and go back in the house.
~ The Infidel Alliance
I know what I saw, #32 The Infidel Alliance. I (w/o my husband) was in many Arab homes for a meal…probably 20. Both the Arab men AND women there were friendly and unguarded. The women do not wear covered garb in their homes when they are with WOMEN friends. I fully realize that not all Arab homes are democratic…but neither are all American homes. Domestic violence happens here too.
Infidel Alliance, why are you so ANGRY hearing my observations? I wrote what I SAW…not what I advocate.
Another factor that surprised me was that the Arab women (NOT the teenagers) actually LIKED the anonimity their hidden garb allowed. They don’t have to be “charming” towards men. They’re not judged by men. They aren’t evaluated by men. They don’t have to be “pretty”. Their lives revolve around their girlfriends. Yes, women age 35 and above seemed to CHERISH their anonimity. Sorry if that makes you angry, Infidel Alliance, but that’s what I saw. And as a woman, I’m sure I was around more of the women than you were. Remember, non-related men (as you would have been) are not allowed into their world. You may have read BOOKS about these women…but I EXPERIENCED their world.
You know nothing, msmensa.
The “islamic character” of the places you visited is maintained through overt threats of violence – by fathers, husbands and brothers first, and the morality police of the state (mutawa), second:
“There Must be Violence Against Women” (I see the original Yemeni Times article has disappeared down the memory hole, but Spencer reproduced in it in his response, thank goodness):
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/01/yemen-times-columnist-there-must-be-violence-against-women.html
Dear #33 “Msmensa”,
I have my doubts as to whether you actually belong to Mensa. And just because you witnessed it with your own eyes doesn’t mean it is moral or even good.
You sound like those repulsive slave owners in America’s deep south who would defend slavery because it was good for them: “See….they have food, and clothes, and are happy in their slave quarters, singing and dancing. All they need to do is SUBMIT.”
Women denied basic human freedoms and fundamental human rights is as repulsive as slaves denied basic human freedoms and fundamental rights.
Some slaves were happy being slaves, just like your subjugated Islamic women. When they have no education, no assets, no freedom, they also have no understanding.
You make me angy “Msmensa” because you are an Islamist sexist apologist and enabler.
~ The Infidel Alliance
Ryan, great piece.
Great comments, Libertyship46, eon, Pragmatist, ETAB, Omar, The Infidel Alliance.
We are lucky to have a good man running against Ron Paul in the Rebublican primary in TX- Tim Graney. Tim has been very critical of Paul on foreign policy, and understands Islamic jihad.
Paul is a very ineffective congressman, and ignorant to boot.
I’m counting on the good people in this country to support Tim Graney.
http://www.GraneyForCongress.com
#32 INfidel and #3 Msmensa -
Infidel, your tone towards Msmensa was uncalled for. We have to be free to discuss. She was sharing what she saw. How she interpreted it may be mmistaken. THAT you should say, without snarling.
Msmensa, they do not rule in their own homes. Let a man come in, and the rules change immediately. Just wait and see what happens if the wife EVER speaks out of turn, thus embarrassing her husband.
As for the “anonymity”, this is a common trope. It’s what they’re taught: “Love your chains.” I’ve heard Westerners echo this sentiment. There’s something to it, until you don’t have a choice in the matter.
The young get a taste of freedom, and how rich life can be, and they want that. They no longer wish to live in a jail. It IS a jail, and the only time they are allowed outside, even to shop for food or to fetch water, is when in the company of a male relative (think police escort).
A Muslim girl can be most devout, but if her brother sins, she can be offered up to pay for his “indiscretion”. Once she is used thus, she is impure, and is stoned to death for her “immorality”.
There is no possible moral defense of Islam.
Dear #37. “Marc Malone”,
My ‘tone’ towards “Msmensa” was absolutely called for and entirely appropriate.
People who legitimize the abuse of other human beings, as “Msmensa” is doing, must be vigorously challenged. This is true whether their position is founded in ignorance, misinterpetation or if they actually belive what they are saying.
It is especially important to vigorously challenge people who claim to be highly educated or natually intelligent as “Msmensa” does via her nom de-plume.
Best regards,
~ The Infidel Alliance
3@Pragmatist
>Its all there in the Koran just like it was all there in Meine Kampf
>just READ it.
Interesting you mention the Catholic document, penned by a Jesuit, that promoted the ultimate immolation of 18million christians and Jews. Isn’t the history of Europe one of christians killing christians?
“…the positive of [Christianity]”
The positives of a cult of pederast, Jesus-pimping, money-grubbing, snake-oil salesmen?
The positives of a cult which for nearly two thousand years has tortured, burned, gutted, and beheaded those who challenge it?
The positives of a cult which has insinuated itself into American politics, undermined its Constitution, corrupted Justice, the EPA, the FDA, the FCC…?
The positives of a cult which would substitute its perverse and debauched notions of humanity for the Deist principles upon which this nation was founded?
The Christianity of our founding fathers was accidental, not central, to their vision.
These founders were escaping Christianity… the narrow, parochial Christianity of their homeland.
msmensa- I have seen women covered in head to toe niqab and walking behind their husbands in the hospital district here in Boston. I agree it’s barbaric but I don’t think it has quite as much to do with terrorism as our presence in the middle east nor do I think the plight of women in the middle east can be helped in any way by our military. I think in Iraq, which was relatively secular pre invasion, we’ve seen rather opposite.
#37 Marc Malone: Thanks for reminding us all that this is a forum for discussing ideas and experiences…not for insulting participants.
Based on my unusual American opportunity to live & work independently in the middle east for several years, I tried to impart 2 observationss:
1. That our western female sexuality (even mild sexuality such as showing an ankle) is a strong undercurrent for their hatred of us. Yes, this is an INTERPRETATION of what they told me, not a fact.
2. That…surprisingly…I DID NOT see a male dominated environment IN THE HOME. I saw the men acquiesce to their wives RE EVERYTHING IN THE HOME. Over & over I saw wives consistently joke with their husbands re their weight, their incomes, their clothes, their inability to shop for long periods…in my presence…the same funny conversations husbands & wives have in happy US families. I mentioned this phenomena NOT to condone bad treatment of women. This interaction was not just an IMPRESSION…this was a FACT! I mentioned this surprising consistant interplay because I respect the obvious knowledge of history displayed on this forum…and I wanted the forum participants to ALSO hear my experiences. I found that the Islamic culture is not all black & white.
Sorry, lester, I’m not persuaded. I’m sure there are many statements made by Muslims about wanting us out of the Middle East. There are also many statements made by Muslims about wanting to establish a world-wide caliphate. Which should one emphasize? Which is more reflective of Muslims actual desires? Consider this: how does the murder of Theo van Gogh fit in with the former set of statements? It doesn’t. And how does the terrorism against India fit in? Again, it doesn’t. That’s why I prefer the latter set of statements. Sure, they want us out of the Middle East, but their ultimate goal is the world-wide caliphate, and our getting out of the Middle East isn’t going to change that.
As for Jews in Israel, there were Jews living there before the Zionists came along. As for those who were driven out, there were Jews driven out of other parts of the Middle East, so it balances out. Anyway, the real question, given that there were Jews there beforehand, is: Who is going to get power in that part of the world? And it was pretty clear that the Arabs thought that they deserved it all and that the Jews deserved none. You can see the same pattern repeated in many parts of the Middle East: in Darfur, in Iraq, in Iran, and so on. One group has power, and it has no intention of sharing it with any other group. Israel is much better at allowing Arabs to join in the power arrangements than any other part of the Middle East.
Dear #41 “Msmensa”,
What exactly is your point? That we deserve to be slaughtered because our women show their ankles?
OK, you saw some brutally oppressed women having happy time inside their home jail cells. So what?
You seem to imply that if western women would just give up their individual freedoms, wear niqabs and submit to their male owners the Islamic jihad would end.
Is that your point?
~ The Infidel Alliance
With the collapse of Ja’far Al Sadiq’s empire in Iran and Ibn Hanbal’s slow demise in Saudi Arabia, the tide is turning and the fictitous sects that emerged during the Abbasid Empire knows as the Sunni and Shia sects and others who follow man made revelations known as hadiths are slowly collapsing. Malik’s Empire in Sudan is collapsing and Abu Hanifa’s Empire in Pakistan is turning upside down. The so called Islamic states have proven to be ideologically obsolete and in the wrong side of history. The sects are on life support and the Koranist will take over. So who are the Koranist?
The Koranist believe only the Koran should speak for Islam.
WHAT IS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ISLAM AND TODAY’S PRACTICES?
In comparing the teachings of Islam as derived from the Book of God to the practices taught and enforced by the popular Sunni and Shia faiths (1.2 Bn followers), we find that the list is quite extensive, with some of the highlights as follows:
In Islam, the requirement to be a Muslim is to simply accept and live according to the �Straight Path� (6:151-153), Vs. the Sunni or Shia 5-pillars which come from unauthorized books�
In Islam, abolishing Slavery is taught to be an act of righteousness (90:12-13), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which encourages slavery under war�
In Islam, women are never forbidden from praying or fasting during Menstruation (2:222), nor is there a specific dress code (i.e. the Headscarf) imposed on them beyond modesty, Vs. the Sunni and Shia which teach the undermining of women and forcing them to cover their hair and avoid praying or fasting at certain times…
In Islam, a man or women may leave a Will, after settlement of debt (4:12), Vs. Sunnis who refuse to accept wills if there are any direct descendants…
In Islam, Monogamy is the basis for normal relationships, while polygamy is only allowed in cases involving marrying the mothers of orphans under the man�s guardianship (4:3), Vs. Sunnis where a man may be a polygamist simply if he can afford to, and Shia which allow sex for pleasure (Mut�a)…
In Islam, Divorce is enforceable only after a two-phase period, and it may be made nullified if the couple reconcile before the end of this period (65:1, 65:4), Vs. Sunni teachings that destroy families by allowing a divorce to occur on the spot with no waiting period and no nullification…
In Islam, Thieves do not have their hands cut-off, but are made to work until they return that which is stolen (12:76), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which brutally amputate the hands causing disability…
In Islam, no one is allowed to be killed or Stoned for adultery (24:2), Vs. Sunni and Shia laws of stoning married adulterers to death…
In Islam, absolute Freedom of Faith is allowed (2:256, 10:99; 18:29; 88:21-22), Vs. Sunni and Shia requiring apostates to be killed and rejecting the practice of other faiths…
In Islam, people are acknowledged as being diverse and each is to be respected for his/her level of spiritual growth. A Submitter �Muslim� must work to attain the status of Faithful �Mumin� (49:14), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings that all followers of their religion must think, act, and even look the same (cult syndrome)…
In Islam, War can only be declared in cases of self-defence – no offensives (2:190), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings allowing raids and attacks on any people who are considered non-Muslim by their standards…
In Islam, Pilgrimage is a centre for gathering of nations and for all to witness the benefits of being together (22:27-28), Vs. Sunni and Shia bringing in polytheistic rituals and superstition (touching of black stone, circling 7 times, etc..)…
In Islam, a Year is a luni-solar count made of 365-days (17:12, 9:36), with all the seasons fitting-in-place Vs. Sunnis teaching it to be a lunar one based on 354 days which creates confusion of seasons and time�
In Islam, males and females are not required to be Circumcised (32:7), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings requiring all males to be circumcised and females in some cases…
In Islam, music, statues, gold and silk are all Lawful(7:32-33, 16:116), Vs. Sunni beliefs forbidding silk & gold for men, and forbidding music & statues for all…
In Islam, rule of Government is under the constitution of the Qur’an through consultation and free-speech (5:48, 42:38). Vs. Sunni teachings which allow the rise of dictators or monarchs, and Shia teachings which uphold self-appointed religious leaders based on genealogy.
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Koran is peace!
JFP “Sure, they want us out of the Middle East, but their ultimate goal is the world-wide caliphate, and our getting out of the Middle East isn’t going to change that”
you think CHINA is going to go muslim? DO you think the united states which has the highest level of gun ownership it has ever had is going to lay down and let muslims come across the ocaen on horseback and takeover or something? None of these countries even have armies really. Al Queda is a terrorist group, they aren’t going to stand out there and take casualties like ww2.
there is no way islam is going to establish a caliphate. we have MUCH bigger fish to fry namely China, our own massive debt and unemployment and about 1000 other things that are alot more likely than an islamic caliphate taking over America.
So they can’t take over America and they can’t establish a world wide islamic caliphate. brazil, Russia, India. these are never going to be muslim countries led by al queda.
“As for those who were driven out, there were Jews driven out of other parts of the Middle East, so it balances out”
you don’t get it. that’s not how our enemies see it and they are motivated by what THEY see. They see israel as south africa style colonialism. so they are going to fight it. that’s the reality. If you or I disagree that’s imaterial.
This isn’t an argument, it’s a war. You can SAY they shouldn’t want to end Israel or US hegemony because, to you, theres no reason why they should.
Unfortunately, You selling the idea of our military empire in the middle east to yourself isn’t going to prevent the next 9/11.
You don’t get to decide for them. That’s why we are where we are with this issue.
Our opinion about what America should be matters. Our opinion about what the middle east should be, in the end, really doesn’t. It’s going to be waht it is going to be one way or another wether we are there to waste tons of money and take thousands of casualties or not.
our objectives should be
1.preventing another 9/11
2. the economic health of our country
not all this history porn abuot caliphates and western civiliation. All I care about is preventing another 9/11. That shuold be all anyone cares about
MsMensa;
That our western female sexuality (even mild sexuality such as showing an ankle) is a strong undercurrent for their hatred of us. Yes, this is an INTERPRETATION of what they told me, not a fact.
Yes, many of them consider female bodies to be so vile they should not be exposed. Pathetic.
How could any female with brains go the middle east or..once there stay in the middle east…unless they are into slavery.
Just because some got brains dont mean they are smart eh?
Take away the religion(s), the middle east is a nice place.