Did Pakistan Know About the OBL Raid?
Did Pakistan know about the raid that killed Osama bin Laden? Michael Ledeen’s Ouija board conversations with the ghost of James Jesus Angleton, the former head of CIA counterintelligence, are always worth a read. In their last chat, they may have been on to something before anyone else: the notion that higher-ups in Pakistan knew about the U.S. operation to snatch OBL. Why should this matter? The world’s worst terrorist is dead. There’s no need to make hay of a great thing, right?
Well, it matters a lot. It matters because the nature of the operation explains the true nature of Pakistan, which, with its triangulations and nuclear arsenal, has long been a wilderness of mirrors. While American politicians wonder whether the Pakistanis were aware of OBL’s hideout — of course they were — al-Qaeda is currently wondering whether the Pakistanis were aware that SEAL Team 6 was on its way to kill their leader. If destroying the rest of al-Qaeda’s hierarchy is the goal, perhaps that is the more immediate question. Perhaps some in Pakistan knew of the hideout, some knew of the operation, and some knew of both.
There are questions here. What happened from the time we located OBL’s courier and the Abbottabad compound in August 2010 to the night of the raid? Did we not once share this intelligence with someone in Pakistan during these nine months? During the 2008 presidential campaign, Obama stated he would intervene in Pakistan to catch OBL if the Pakistanis did not act. Such a policy required waiting to see whether or not the Pakistanis would act.
We knew Abbottabad was a military town. Pakistan’s prestigious military academy is located just yards away from OBL’s compound. In fact, U.S. forces were stationed there in October 2008 (and possibly another time or two). This remarkable WikiLeaks revelation has been lost on most of the American media. One can only imagine OBL smirking from his balcony, sipping tea while observing joint U.S.-Pakistani military training. He was right under our nose — or, more precisely, we were right under his.
Why would we unnecessarily jeopardize the mission and risk a firefight with the Pakistanis without knowing for certain that we might not have to? What if the Pakistanis thought they were under attack from India? That could have sparked a nuclear exchange between the two rivals. Surely “Black Hawk Down” was not the only bad scenario envisioned during the planning stages of the operation.
Some other questions linger. Does this year’s arrest of Bali bomber Umar Patek, also caught in Abbottabad, have anything to do with anything? What about Pakistan’s arrest and eventual release of CIA agent Raymond Davis in March? For months prior to the raid, CIA operatives had a safe house in Abbottabad to spy on OBL. Who knew of this? And why are we revealing the nature of the intelligence we collected at the compound? As for the raid, what was the nature of the firefight? We were first told it was a 40-minute battle and OBL was the last to be killed. Now we are told the only resistance came from the courier living in the guest house, not OBL’s villa. We were first told OBL had a gun in hand. Now we are told he was “reaching” for a weapon. How does it take that long to reach for a weapon? What happened during the 20-25 minute blackout on the operation’s video stream? Why didn’t we take OBL’s wife with us? Why do at least two of the other three men killed during the raid seem to have been shot in the back of the head?
walah — heh.
God forgives if and when men repent, Acts 17.30-31.
We must forgive if men repent, Lk.17.1-4.
Bin Laden never repented, hence died unforiven.
And is forever in Hell.
And he really doesn’t care if we celebrate his death or not.
That’s Arabic—and Valley Girl—for “voila!”
“Pakistani military officials said it was impossible for U.S. helicopters to fly to the compound without the knowledge of the Pakistani military”
The problem with this is seals team six came in on stealth helicopters and pakistan did infact scramble planes. We just happend to make it out of their air space in the nick of time. I think people are starting to over-analyze this way too much. I’ve seen no evidence anyone was shot in the back of the head either. Bullets can enter from the front and exit through the back. I am for one going to believe Osama reached for a gun.
proxywar,
I’ve heard this report that planes were scrambled and the choppers got out of Pakistani airspace just in time… and then I’ve heard it wasn’t so. Do you have a source for this report. Also, this article is the first report that the Pakistani’s cordoned off the area ahead of the raid. That seems to be a significant report that is not, so far being widely reported.
Not true. I read that lights out report the first day. Plus on Atlas Shruggs there is a report obama was trying to save obamas ass, but the CIA faked him out and ran the raid while he was sooooooooo busy at the golf course. Fact: obama is a fraud and USURPER.
What I find so hilarious is that the rednecks are all coming out in droves to try to prove that somehow the President was not informed or not involved in this mission. Hello people of very low IQ, the President has to order this mission in order for it to take place. The SEALs cannot make this mission without the knowledge or approval of the President. All the preparations and planning had to go through the President.
I also find it hilarious that all the Bush cronies like Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld are now coming out of the woodwork to try and claim this glory, claiming that somehow waterboarding was the sole ingredient to catching Osama. So I guess Bush had a lot of info at that time but it was wasted? These Bush cronies are talking like they know everything on Fox, except how how to catch Osama….LMAO
Heather,
I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if Obama hedged to the point that had the mission failed he could have pointed the finger at someone like Panetta (he would make the perfect fall guy) so as to preserve his next presidential bid. The Dems aren’t going to let such a mission be a repeat of what happened to Carter. And the debate over whether EITs had anything to do with our getting UBL is a legitimate discussion to have.
osama obama,
I read that report you refer to in Atlas Shruggs. I found it more theoretical than definitive. That lights out story is significant if it’s true.
Unlike the U.S., India has devoted their intelligence services to examining some of the points in this article. What they describe is a fractured Pakistani gov’t, intelligence service and army that is not at all on the same page when it comes to Islamic radicalism, America, Afghanistan or India itself.
It is indeed a hall of mirrors and one simply does not know what one is looking at. Although it is interesting to speculate, the idea that we in America can somehow make sense of it where India cannot is probably a futile one. I suppose one should always try to make sense of Pakistan since many believe it is important and some, vitally important.
The problem is reflected in American actions in the region; we simply do not know when to trust Pakistani advice and really only want them because they have a vital geographic role for our war in Afghanistan.
The Pakistanis believe we have wrongly alienated the Pashtun majority in Afghanistan and the former prime minister of Pakistan points out that all Taliban are Pashtun but not all Pashtun are Taliban. Obviously America sees this as a catch-22 and so have fought against the only people that can help them.
Conclusion: it is a recipe for failure in every respect and when America leaves Afghanistan it will be as if they never came. Pakistan itself is a seething cauldron constantly on the tipping point and with atomic bombs that seems calm on the surface in many areas of the country – after all, most people just want to live – but a small group like Al-Queda can wreck things for everyone.
The entire area from Pakistan to Morocco is one big mess that will only get worse because of their addiction to Islam and surging populations that will export their madness and failure to the exact extent they are allowed to emigrate to the West; a few radicals but with tacit support from an otherwise uninterested but not disinterested majority will see to that.
The extent of the disaster that is coming based on over population and anti-Westernism cannot be overestimated. Bin Laden was the result of an idea that did not oppose America for it’s acts, but because it is simply an “other” in the eyes of Islam, and one that humiliates Islam merely by it’s conspicuous success and protection of its oil life-line. This is not nuanced geo-politics but jealously, resentment and hatred based on endemic Third World failure.
What a great piece of thinking. I would use your point about the state of Afghanistan after we leave as a reason to leave asap. I think we all know logistically this can get ugly fast for the troops there. The longer we remain, the greater the possibility is they will get hung out to dry.
I agree that a disaster is in the cards. It is unfolding before our eyes. I just wonder what will be the spark that ignites it and how much time is left to us before it does.
James May,
Very interesting analysis. If we withdraw, things in the ME will get worse. If we don’t, things in the ME will get worse. Our immediate withdrawal would cost less in the short run (who knows about the long run). Staying would be more expensive (in both blood and treasure) but provide us the oportunity to influence the outcome in a positive way… possibly. But, it could very possibly make things worse. Should we just declare war on Islam and be done with it?
After 9/11, coming to some understanding of islam was important to me. After reading, watching the behavior of muslims, and personally reaching out to them, I have concluded there is no way to coexist with it. I would not declare war on it as yet. Declaring a war on islam will be at the conclusion of a drawn out process that affords islam a multitude of opportunities to show it can coexist with everyone else. Obama’s speech last Sunday was part of that process.
The actions of muslims in London are a reflection of the religeon itself. In the very country that grants them freedom, they openly acknowledge their desire to destroy it. How do you live in peace with those who only want your destruction? I do not see any moderate muslims, only silent muslims.
Only when it is dead certain to almost everyone that islam will not allow peacefull coexistence, will the effort to stamp it out get underway. How and how long before western civilization understands this are the only questions I have left.
I see no reason to declare war on Islam but I would ban it from the U.S. tomorrow if I could. I’ve been in Egypt for over a year and the view is not a pretty one and these aren’t even the crazy ones.
In my home state there is a little conference coming up at Spring Lake High School by the Al Aqsa Institute of Minnesota whose declared vision is “Average American obtaining, at least, the very basic understanding of the Palestinian – Israeli conflict;” – well we all know what that means.
Yeah, we know – you don’t like Jews and you’re exactly like the innocent kids in those paintings who have giant, sad eyes. Take yer stupid feud to hell out of my state. You see, that’s the problem – it’s not MY state, MY culture are just bystanders now even though we legitimately stole it from the Indians and that wasn’t easy becuz they were very stubborn about it for some reason.
And I’m asking myself, who let these frickin’ morons into my state and why do they have the exact same rights that I do but don’t even like us?
Let’s face it, America is nothing more than a Constitutional airport for the Third World and I’m just a baggage handler. Every culture in the world can champion itself and protect it’s hegemony in their own countries but European culture – if we do that guess what – yup, racist.
I’m for ending all immigration cuz it just ain’t working out and I don’t want to end up like those Indians we robbed fair and square. Muslim aren’t even playing fair – they’re just breeding and not inventing stuff or having cool armies or anything. And you know what, screw this frickin’ Constitution – it needs to be rewritten so it can’t be used against the people who created the damn thing.
If even one of our Republican candidates could make that kind of sense, I could get behind them. Well said James May.
Dr. Zudi Jasser is the only Muslim that appears to be moderate (and not silent) to me. There may be others out there, but either I don’t know of them… or I have a very bad feeling about them (i.e. GZM Sufi Imam Rauf). I fear for Dr. Jasser’s life because he is a serious threat to the barbaric Muslims. The other Muslims who make complete sense are apostate Muslims. Are you aware of any?
The reason OBL was taken dead has to do with domestic politics. You can’t know where he is for nine months and let him slip away and win an election. You can’t take him alive and then argue about where to try him (We Democrats want to try him in Manhattan but the Republicans won’t let us!) and win an election. The optics are bad either way. It may sound irrational, but the left base of the Democratic Party really is wedded to their “Gitmo is Gulag” claims — they actually believe it. Obama does not need them kicking and screaming about it in the run-up to the election.
To the White House all this other stuff just ain’t that important. This operation is just the sort of thing that Obama spent his first year apologizing for. But when he does it it’s different.
Ahhh the conspiracy continues on. I’m sure President Obama ordered this mission to get re-elected because the man is absolute evil. He hates this country to the very core of his being but is doing this only to get re-elected so he can continue the fight against his Muslim brothers. He will keep showing hate for this country by destroying Al Qaida. Heck if that’s the case, I hope President Obama keeps hating this country.
You’re not too far off the mark Heather. He does hate various aspects of this Country: Capitalism/Free Markets; Wealthy People (Unless they happen to be his contributors); Christians (Even though he professes to be one… he’s lying); Jews (Why not? His Muslim friends do); the Police; the Military; White People (other than the useful idiots); and any of his enemies who would like to live as free and unencumbered by authority as he can. Do you really not think Obama is all about settling old scores?
I appreciate the speculation, but, the entire operation at the compound took 40 minutes. With the number of perp’s shot, it doesn’t look like any more than half a dozen rounds of ammo were used.
Knowing the resources of these people, there must be underground bunkers for avoiding drone strikes, and probably tunnels leading to the military academy where bin Laden lectured covert ops, how to resist water boarding techniques, and IED 101.
We’ll just have to wait for the english translation of the book from bin Laden’s wife. Or maybe Michael Moore can make a movie!!!
As for divulging Spycraft, politicians would rather make a splash than mislead our enemies. When Clinton took a shot at OBL, before getting confirmation of success or failure he announced we were tracking his cell phone! Saying nothing about methodology will cause the enemy to wonder just who they can trust . . . Leaks You Know!!! In fact giving the impression that their inner circle had been penetrated could have caused more lasting damage than killing OBL! We exploited a hole in their procedures and then tell them fix THIS!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Republic_of_China_%E2%80%93_Pakistan_relations
Why is there never any mention of China-Pskistan relations? It’s starting to sound like the fiction of Romanian or Bulgarian independence during the Soviet period. C’mon people – who’s our real *strategic* adversary today?
And what is the route of the Chinese-Pakistan Friendship Highway, built between 1959 and 1986? From Kashgar, in Chinese Xinjiang, to ABBOTABAD, Pakistan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karakoram_Highway
This incident now joins the growing list of other such recent major/pivotal incidents—the Bay of Pigs, the JFK assassination, Flight 800, the accomplices of Timothy McVeigh, the Anthrax Attacks, etc., etc. about which we have no clear, definitive picture or understanding nor—if the people involved have their way–will we ever. One of the arts of spy craft is to spread disinformation and to sow confusion, and confusion has been sown aplenty in an ever-expanding, concealing fog.
One thing that I take from this incident, however, is that Pakistan has been definitively proven to not be, nor to ever have been really on “our side,” and the quicker we change out our slippery, deceptive, third world, failed state Pakistani Muslim “Allies” for new, much more democratic Indian Hindu Allies, the better, nor should we or can we pretend any longer that any Muslim state can really be our “Ally.”
“This suggests an execution.”
Good. And I hope they knew what was about to happen too. Because some people truly need to be killed.
I completely disagree. This is an utter strategic disaster for Pakistan which they could have avoided given 10 minutes notice to move Osama.
http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/21968.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110507/ap_on_re_us/us_bin_laden_al_qaida
President Obama is not being given credit for making a very gutsy call here, and particularly one which has produced strategic political consequences.
Exposure of Pakistani duplicity, and that it is making war on us, is far, far more important than merely killing Osama bin Laden. I can’t emphasize this enough.
President Obama has made an historic, decisive, courageous and, in my opinion, ultimately successful strategic move in the war on terror.
America’s will to win is THE decisive battlefield of any war involving us. President Obama just identified our real enemy in an irrefutable way.
We can’t modify Pakistan’s behavior through blackmail or threats. We can only destroy Pakistan’s ability to harm us, however many of them we have to kill.
Our behavior is what wins wars.
President Obama has made a decisive move injecting strategic clarity into the picture.
I was chatting with Mom this weekend. She speculated that, maybe, very few people knew of bin Laden’s whereabouts. Rich people in Pakistan and the Middle East live in large walled compounds and have many body guards, etc.
There may have been nothing at all suspicious about his compound. I prefer to deal with facts, there seems to be a lot speculation coming from the “experts” as well. Which is ok. Let’s remember to keep the two separate.
I BELIEVE WE ABSOLUTELY MUST AGGRESSIVELY “PROPAGANDIZE” THE ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST.
THIS IS THE ONLY PEACEFUL SOLUTION. THIS ENTIRE REGION IS “POSSESSED” BY FALSE BELIEFS. PEOPLE THAT TELL THE TRUTH ARE KILLED.
The US Government sat on the information that Arafat (remember that POS PLO terrorist who then became a “peacemaker” (sarcasm)) he ordered the brutal torture and murder of US Ambassador Cleo Noel and the others in the Embassy in Sudan in the 1970s. NSA picked up the radio calls between PLO HQ & Arafat and the terrorists holding the hostages. The Higher Ups in the US Government surpressed the radio transcripts for over 30 years. The US lied to the American people about it and wanted to have “talks” with Arafat. Sound familiar?! So only trust the JSOC/ST6/GreyFox crowd when their leaks or beer chat info gets out but never the Politicians who only care about themselves.
Also, remember to fear the covert Dawa and Jihad going on in America (and with the help of Useful Idiots in the Government) not the overt Dawa and Jihad coming from overseas!!! ICXCNIKA
Regardless of how you spin it, or how everything actually went down, one thing is certain: Pakistan is untrustworthy.
OBAMA’S 19TH LIE ABOUT THE MISSION TO KILL BIN LADIN
Fox News counted 18 lies or “untruths” related to the administrations muddled story about the operation to capture/kill Osama bin Ladin. But there is a 19th lie misssed by Fox, the biggest whopper of them all: the whopper about Obama’s canceled authorization to bomb bin Ladin’s compound.
Click my name to read my piece: Why Obama Delayed The Mission To Kill Bin Laden, And His 19th Lie.
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The do-gooders would have made such a stink about Bin Laden’s treatment and legal status that it was probably easier to just kill him. Some people said this might become our standard way of dealing with “enemy combatants” in the field, for precisely this reason.
Bugs,
Brilliant. See, the Liberal solutions always achieve the opposite to the desired result. For example welfare results in more an more permanent poverty, more women are objectified and abused since feminism became prevalent, curiously enough many black scholars have concluded that the destruction of the American black family, business ownership, and creativity began AFTER the achievements of the Civil Rights Movement.
So… would it be any surprise that the bleeding heart defense of captured terrorists–designed to save their little butts–ends up simplifying the process by summary execution on the battlefield?
Example: once I was stopped by a Boston cop. I was guilty of a “rolling stop.” He checked my drivers license only to find that there was a problem with an 11 year old moving violation (which was later dismissed.) Technically he was supposed to arrest me, take me to the precinct, etc. It was a sweltering summer day. He asked me what was the problem and I explained. Then he said: “I am supposed to arrest you but I don’t have time for all the paperwork. Please go to court and fix this before some other cop arrests you for this stupid ticket.”
I drove away thinking “What a country!”
I bet you since the time ex-prisoners started turning up in the battlefield for a second time there are more of them that get KIA. That kinda clears the paperwork doesn’t it?
Saying that the packy goverment wanted to remain anonymous but yet they cordoned off the neighborhood is contradictory. Word of that would certainly get out. Killing him so that he wouldn’t create a problem with what to do with him next is an easy out but, what to do with all the information he could provide especially when he realizes that he has been sold out is another thing. You can do a lot by having the information without having to act on it. Allowing the mission in exchange for pulling out af afghanistan might be something and would certainly fit what obama wants to do.
As far as someone else selling him out you have to realize that these are not men of honor. What were his buddies willing to do to keep their money flowing? There is big money in terrorism. Double dipping to protect and search for him. Take money to attack one country while taking money to not attack another.
For me, I’m happy they caught up with him but, they should have sent body snatchers instead of a kill team. The snatchers could have killed him if need be.
Pakistan know about the raid? Of course not– bin Laden and family would’ve high-tailed it outta there a couple of hours before the first choppers arrived, if they had.
Sen. Feinstein says she knew about the raid way back in December. If so, so did hundreds of others. For all we really know, the seals greased some raghead crazy resembling Bin Laden.
This is the 1st article I’ve read on this volatile subject that mentions Pakistan’s nuclear capability, a factor that must be dominant looking forward to any resolution of the conflict percolating in the Middle East. What happens to this arsenal if we cut off relations, of any kind, with Pakistan? We have no influence in Iran and how is that situation going?
The entire Middle East is a hotbed of virulent, illogical anti American, anti Israel, anti Western (non-Muslim) sentiments. We are now fully engaged in a small part of that indeterminable “war” that is being waged in Afghanistan and Iraq. What the West beatifically refers to as the “Arab Spring” as if somehow, despite mountains of contrary evidence, a Western style, secular, freedom loving, democratic revolution is underway, is far more likely an Arab winter which will result in a drift toward the Iranian, theocratic model making current, vitriolic, anti Western sentiments seem like minor differences of opinion.
Pakistan is yet another piece of a multifaceted puzzle, a picture that the collective West has yet to put together, hidden from view by attitudes at the highest levels, of appeasement, political correctness and ideological blinders that prevents recognition of the obvious. Although growing in number, very few in the West, including America, have been able to pull back the shroud of deception deployed by Islamic extremists masquerading as paragons of religious virtue; repeat after me “Islam is a religion of peace,” or their will inevitably be violent protests by our “peaceful” brethren and everyone scampers, bows and scrapes so as not to offend. If, as is said, history has a tendency to repeat itself, the West, as we know it, is in trouble.
I personally think some elements of Pakistans establishment did know about Osama, especially if he had bullet proof cars and that he was based so close to the military base.
One point though India did warn that Pakistan was harbouring Osama and he was not in the mountains by Afghanistan just a thought…..
“1986 – China and Pakistan reach comprehensive nuclear Co-operation Agreement.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/8496604/Osama-bin-Laden-dead-hi-tech-secret-may-end-up-in-China.html
Beuller? Beuller?
Beuller?
“Why do at least two of the other three men killed during the raid seem to have been shot in the back of the head?”
Exit wounds are generally much larger then entry wounds. People shot in the back of the head rarely ever land on their backs.
USN SEAL’s almost never miss.
ONLY
POINT,
R
This pic looks like a shot in the ear:
http://www.boanow.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/ScreenHunter_SH03-May.-04.jpg
Osama caused a domino effect sacrificing the selfish death of people in his own oganisation as well as his enemies ,death was his path ,a far cry from the echo of his beliefs in Islam being a carrier of peace through the shadow of war.
A thought: Maybe Obama decided it was critical to kill-not capture- Bin Laden because of what Bin Laden knew of cooperation between the Obama Administration and Muslim terrorists around the world.
Walah should read voila
Of coarse Pakistan knew where osdama was living, they sold osama for money, to replace him with a different leader. This was diffidently a kill job all the way no capture, because if osama started singing a lot of people would have a lot of explaining to do Lucy!
You are very right. That is so obvious there is no way to deny it. Osama’s beard shaved by Occam’s razor.
Funny. A little while ago I dropped by CNN’s website, and their headline was something along the lines of “Obama says OBL had support in Pakistan.” Over at the WaPo five minutes later, the story was “No evidence Pakistan knew of Bin Laden’s presence.”
There is no way we would have been able to fly those helicopters into Pakistani airspace, let alone a suburban neighborhood, especially made up of retired, rich military officers, without the knowledge and approval of the Pakistani government.
The Pakistani government and leadership are denying involvement with the Bin Laden raid and killing because they have a very big pro-OBL/Al Qaeda/radical Islamic constituency within their borders. They cannot afford to further alienate and anger these radical elements within Pakistan, or risk increased internal violence/suicide bombings/assassination attempts, etc.
But the Pakistani government was probably also playing it both ways — I.e., they were getting paid billions of dollars by the US government to help them fight terrorism outside a.nd within their borders, and they were also paid millions by OBL to allow him to live secretly (he thought) in that neighborhood all this time. Sure Pakistan was complicit – to survive as they have in this deadly cat and mouse game, they have to appease and accommodate all the key players — their overall population, the homegrown Al Qaeda, Bin Laden & company, and, of course, the always supportive US of A.
It’s idiotic to think that the Afghan military, police force and government will be able to take over and manage security of their country once the US and NATO withdraws. The majority of the enlisted and many within the officer ranks of the Afghan military and police are illiterate, and the US government is working overtime and hastily to educate these people to up to the 1st grade level (numbers and letters) so that they can understand the more complex aspects of their job.
We’ve been in South Korea for over 50 years, and, to date, the South Korean government and military forces there do not want our military to leave their country, nor for their own militaries to take control as the lead in charge of overall operations. They say they are still not fully ready or capable of taking over from the US’ rein, and this with an army, navy, air defense and police force that are one of the most educated, technically skilled, technologically trained and battle-ready prepared on the planet.
Does Obama and people in his administration understand that a pull-out from Afghanistan in the near-term will mean not only disgrace and failure, but also disaster? He can’t be serious.
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