Did Islamism Win Egypt’s Revolution?
The world’s eyes focused on Egypt’s dramatic revolution. Yet incredibly, the media, government intelligence agencies, and experts haven’t answered a simple question: Who made the revolution and what were their motives and aims?
We have been repeatedly assured that the forces that began and led the upheaval were young, liberal, pro-democratic, technically hip people. Their organizational framework was the April 6 Youth Movement.
The movement’s leadership appears to be a small group of independent people and participants with no structure. These leaders and the main activists seem to be genuinely moderate — in Egyptian political terms — and supporters of democracy.
However, whenever one can identify organized groups participating in this revolution they fall into three categories: left-wing radical Marxists or nationalists, reformists allied at the time to the Muslim Brotherhood, and Islamists. Since it began, the April 6 movement itself has worked closely with the Muslim Brotherhood.
The evidence for this assertion comes from simply analyzing the history of the April 6 Youth Movement. It started as a Facebook support group for a 2008 workers’ strike. By the following year, the group claimed to have a network linking 70,000 people. It is not clear who these people were but it is hard to believe that they all “joined” one at a time, as individuals with no other organizational affiliation.
Egyptian politics and Arab politics in general are often based on linkages that make strange bedfellows in Western terms. The neo-Marxist left contains strong Islamist and nationalist elements, as well as powerful anti-Western and anti-Israel sentiments. Islamists, precisely because they want to centralize power in the state, have socialist overtones. And people who seem liberal reformers often hold views quite distant from those of Western counterparts.
It is amusing that right-wing conspiracy theorists in the United States and Middle East have leaped on a Wikileaks document showing that one member of the April 6 Youth Movement attended a State Department seminar in the United States as “proof” that the U.S. government was behind the revolution. At the same time, though, the far larger-scale involvement of leftist activists in the movement and demonstrations is ignored, while that of revolutionary Islamists is minimized or explained away as harmless.
Other than backing a labor strike, the two specific issues on which the April 6 Youth Movement was active were support for bloggers being persecuted by the government and for ending sanctions on the Gaza Strip.
Helping Gazans is a popular cause in Egypt. Yet the political implications of that stance are revealing. The Gaza Strip is ruled by Hamas, a radical Islamist group that brutally suppresses internal dissent.
Whatever the intentions — often portrayed as humanitarian — a campaign to end Egyptian sanctions on Gaza was helping to entrench Hamas’s dictatorship and making it possible to smuggle in more arms for use in attacking Israel. It also sought to help the Muslim Brotherhood’s number-one foreign ally to become stronger.
This activity — rather than a domestic issue or helping the repressed people of Sudan, Syria, or Saudi Arabia — was one of the movement’s two top priorities. This, too, is revealing of the participants’ politics.
Aside from well-meaning, hi-tech independents, the April 6 Movement was helped — or, if you wish, infiltrated — by four groups. Tagammu is Egypt’s leftist party, with strong Marxist overtones. Three other organizations have their origins in apparently liberal groups. These are the al-Ghad party, led by former opposition presidential candidate Ayman Nour; the Kifaya movement; and the National Association for Change, led by Muhammad ElBaradei, former head of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), Nobel Peace Prize winner, and presidential candidate.
Despite its liberal origins, by the time it allied with the April 6 Movement, Kifaya was largely taken over by the Brotherhood. Its origin was in a radical nationalist and leftist movement against the U.S.-led attack on Iraq in 2003 (defending, by default, the Saddam Hussein regime). It reached its peak in 2005, though deep divisions among its Marxist, leftist, Arab nationalist, Islamist, and secular liberal members were tearing it apart. In 2006, trying to build its base through populist demagoguery — and avoid repression by the Mubarak regime — the group switched to focusing on anti-Israel agitation, including a demand to abrogate the Egypt-Israel peace treaty.
Some of Kifaya’s own members, “deep inside, are against democracy and reform,” said Bahaa al-Din Hassan, director of Cairo Center for Human Rights Studies at the time. In 2007 the group’s leader became Abdel Wahhab al-Messiri, a former Communist and Muslim Brother, as well as one of the country’s leading antisemites, a purveyor of Jewish conspiracy theories based on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
While itself liberal reformist, ElBaradei’s National Association for Change was a small group largely dependent on the Brotherhood for organizational support and vote-getting activity.
Despite all their ideological differences — left-wing, nationalist, liberal, or Islamist — all four of the groups associated with the April 6 Youth Movement had as one of their top-priority issues the goal of ending the Egypt-Israel peace treaty.
But there is also an additional factor. Knowing that any direct association with the Brotherhood would discredit it in the eyes of many, the April 6 Youth Movement had an understanding with the Brotherhood. The two would cooperate and exchange information but the Brotherhood would not become too directly involved in the movement.






An Islamic state in Egypt is going to come about as quite a surprise to most of the media fed public in the West as well as to most of our politicians. The writing is and has been on the wall for some time now but ignored by the ever hopeful naive and gullible touchy feely crowd. After reading this article it is just one more bit of support for my contention that Israel should strike now against Syria to secure its flank and in turn neutralize Lebanon and Jordan as well as Gaza and the Palestinians. Egypt in a few short years will be Israelis main enemy once again and democracy as we see it just bong smoke of a silly academic and wishful dream in the return to pre 67. Obama nice translates to weakness in Islam’s eyes and the hand that holds the olive branch will be cut off by the cold hard steel of Islam. That use of steel is the one thing that the majority of Islam understands very well after centuries of use, we apparently don’t.
the answer to the question is a resounding “YES”, period…”Y E S”
A pre-emptive strike in all directions by a tiny little country of a few million people that could start World War III. Hey, not a bad idea. We could build giant machines like Wells’ Martian tripods that’d scare the shit out of ‘em and have ‘em make noises like they shoot death rays cuz we don’t actually have death rays like that yet.
The muslims who are not killed would probably build a giant capital building like in Washington and convert to Judaism and then we could all go out and have a world picnic to celebrate.
You’re not a cutter are you? I bet you cut yourself. Did you know you can make a light bulb work using a potato?
You must be a school teacher. Syria is the head of the snake.
Your Mom should know James, undoing a mistake is hard.
Congratulations, only 8 minutes to think over that one and well worth the wait. How many books do you sit on to reach the keyboard?
Listen very carefully. Go to your fathers wallet and email me his credit card number. In return, I’ll email you the next Harry Potter book no one knows about yet plus the secret of life.
Seven million in all, most of them with much more common sense than you, and few of them ready to live under constant threat of missile and bomb and shooting attack so that you can keep believing you’re in charge of things by right.
Seven million, most of whom every day are reminded by news reports, security checks, bomb scares, alarms and actual bombs and explosions (as in Jerusalem) that the Arabs are always finding new ways to murder Israelis for the heck of it.
Seven million, many of whom deal with this week after week, month after month, year after year, while you preen and pretend that Islam itself doesn’t threaten the entire globe.
Seven million, many of whom are descended from parents or grandparents who went through hell in the darkest of places.
Seven million, not many of whom care about you or your instructions on what they might do for survival.
Seven million, many of whom will be properly and rightly relieved when we – if we – finally lay the hammer down on our enemies. Poor disinformationist, you are.
Larry,
so very well said, bravo!
Yeah, bravo! “We” were really happy to donate skyscrapers so “you” morons can battle it out for religious supremacy for another 60 years.
Stop making it seem like this is only you. Add up the innocent civilians around the world caught up in the crossfire and then take your ‘we’ and shove it.
By ‘hammer’ I’m assuming you mean more divine messages from the depths of outer space in the form of asteroid strikes and more uplifts of the Earth’s crust. That kind of no-fly zone without harming the chosen kids is kinda cool.
How does that work anyway? Worked nice in Egypt with Moses and everything.
Boom, Santorini Volcano blasts, the Red Sea parts and the kids scoot across into the Promised Land and Ramses stands there with boils on his ass and with frogs and cicadas hopping all over the place behind his back and getting all over the Pyramids ‘n’ stuff.
I bet you guys were laughing like crazy while wandering around in the desert for 4 thousand years or whatever it was.
Before charging off into the desert against your foes I’d bring some kind of a road map this time. And don’t forget plenty of yeast. You already got so many frickin’ holidays I wonder where you find time to bulldoze ‘unauthorized’ homes in the ‘no-move, no-build, no look-me-in-the-eye-zone’ that’ll one day be the postage stamp called ‘Palestine’.
And don’t come back at me like the Danish cartoonist; you’ll lose your moral edge. My joking around is far less than you and your witless friend who live in a glass house who cousins the really reprehensible idea of killing thousands if not millions of Arabs in a pre-emptive war while invoking the very “hell in the darkest of places” you so hypocritically envision for others.
What’s the definition of ‘human’ in the Torah? Let’s hear it.
By not hearing voices from beyond the Megellanic Cloud, my definition extends to everyone, even you.
I feel the need to address some of the remarks that are unfortunately rather consistent on posts at PJM among some individuals. Anyone who’s read my essays about the Palestinian question clearly knows where I stand on the issue but neither am I such a child as to believe one side is always right. I am no fan of Islam but neither am I nuts.
I take issue with people who portray muslims as ‘cockroaches’, ‘groveling’, ‘cowards’ and openly delight in the prospect of their death in the thousands or of them killing each other in Libya. How one can an endure a double standard, and among the people who cry about anti-Semitism the most themselves, that allows for this to not be seen as unadulterated racism and then claim that people who simply disagree with Israeli policies are anti-Semitic racists is simply beyond my ability to comprehend.
Were I to say such things about Jews with the consistency with which I see such comments here I would have the Anti-Defamation League all over my ass. But turn it the other way and make such an innocuous statement as being against an Israeli policy and suddenly you have a KKK hood on; this is plain wrong.
I’ve seen posters here who have referenced the lists of Nobel Prizes won by Jews and in other places black folks make lists of inventions and in most contexts’ I really have no problem with them although they always make me chuckle. I say that because, as an American, never in my life, not even when I was 6 years old was I ever stupid enough to make such a list that wouldn’t have included the simple admission to the club of having 2 arms and 2 legs. I have no interest in skin color or religion in speaking of such things unless someone starts talking smack like cultural relativism; there is what is and there is what one wishes. I want to wish as much as I can but I observe as well but I see no cockroaches. I admit all is not simple but I am wary of that line.
I myself often make comments on immigration and other matters that I realize walk a fine line but at least I am trying to walk it. I do not consider offensive remarks consistently doled out according to religion or race and without an ounce of humor attached and further delighting in the death of thousands of Japanese or muslims to be trying to walk a fine line.
Some here who have remarked on Jewish Nobel recipients are clearly cultural supremacists and to them I say, the one Nobel you need to win would be called the “Getting Along With Other People Prize” because for over 60 years the policies that have been and are being followed in the former Mandate of Palestine have resulted in nothing but death, destruction and utter failure. I know the history of this conflict and I know it has been a difficult and deadly situation and I in truth fault the Palestinian Arabs more for their ignoring the reality of the situation that has overtaken them and the same utter lack of desire to get along than I do the Israelis who have clearly held back compared to the way they could have reacted in many cases.
I’m just saying, if one wants to trumpet a superiority over one’s foes, then take the moral high ground they can’t aspire to according to you and go for that Nobel Prize that matters most and that is to end the bickering. I’m not saying it would be easy – Lord knows it’s not but that is the prize to go for if we are talking about adults as opposed to simple minded children here. Talk it then walk it.
I don’t for one minute believe Israeli’s are like Nazis or that Israel is practicing apartheid but some of the remarks here clearly run counter to what I hope and think are the tenets of Israel and are in fact hypocritical in the extreme.
I’m not stupid, I understand the West Bank is the worst possible situation given the armored columns that came out of there in 1967; in my opinion, lacking a real sense of any desire for peace coming from the Palestinian Arabs, the idea that Israel could once again be cut in half and attacked from the North and South with an enemy in the middle is not one Israel will allow to happen again and I don’t blame them.
I honestly don’t know what the answer is but it’s not hate and how many more decades can people live like this before they are utterly eaten from within?
Busy here since I left. You must be a school teacher, long winded blow hearted explanations trying to justify your world complete with adolescent insults. Well this is all I can say, James #17 above– My mom once told me that if you overcook something that you end up with what you started with – nothing. Your Mom must be very disappointed. Enough band width with this idiot.
Who said the answer is hate? That is your projection of what you yourself hate – the thought of a truly sovereign, proud and free Jewish state that ‘does not take instruction from the Gentiles.’
But you are right, the situation can not go on forever. People like me and others will change it, and for the better.
No, that is your projection of what you yourself hate is your projection of what you yourself hate is your projection of a projection of 2 religious Jim Crow states.
Jim Crow meet Jim Crow. Oh, hi, I’m an Egyptian Jim Crow, meet my friend, he is a Turkish Jim Crow and his cousin is from the Jim Crow kingdom of Saudi Arabia. We should all get together and have a joint Muslim-Jewish Jim Crow conference and laugh at Protestants and Catholics and drink tea. Oh, yes, lots of tea. And kool-aid too! Yaaaaaay!
Let me know when I can come to Israel and marry either a muslim or Jewish woman and then I’ll break out the trio with the fife and drums.
Til then I’m working hard to make sure Bolivia gets a corridor to the sea so they don’t start flinging giant boomerangs at New York City skyscrapers and lighting fire to paper bags in front of my door with llama crap in them and ringing the doorbell.
The death rays are already there James.
They have been for a half century now. Including Israel.
I have thought that Iranian government went for the bait too quick. They invested at great cost and have a weak military as a result. These are weapons which produce only one possible outcome – your own destruction. They are without use in what we see happening now.
Flying saucers and invisible flying boats. Democracy in Libya by air power. Land of Oz.
Spindok
why has no one ever bombed the heck out of “mecca”????? get in, fet out, boom.
That’s a fantastic question. Could it be they are time bound bastards who can’t move out of the racist era when the biggest hit song was Abdul Hailey and the Crescent Moons’, “Clock Around the Rock”?
Being a Christian, I think they’d cut my head off even looking at Mecca on Google Earth.
Mr.Rubin, thank you four clear explanation of the pro-Islam bent of the Egyptian voters and the certainty of a fiercely anti-Israel and anti-Western government in Cairo, I cannot comprehend the inability of Americans to grasp the the truth that Arabs,and particularly Muslim Arabs, have no interest in Democracy as we view it. They see free elections as an oprtunity to seize power and never relinquish it.
Becsause our Republic was born of revolution, and we like to root for the underdog, we cheer for any citizenry which rises against a despot even we know nothing about what forces may be behind the uprising, or considering what may be the evenyual consequences.
So now we follow your question with “Who Will Win the Libyan Revolution”. It sure won’t be the U .S. of A.
Now we have conservatives thrilled that we have taken military action in the cause of rebels who hate us, hate democracy, hate Israel and will do everything in their power to do us harm, physically and economically. who would turn on us arms that we have given them without blinking an eye. We’ll leave the world with one less evil tyrant but in an even greater mess, and the innocents still under oppression. All because revolutionaries are so romantic and we want to make the world a better place.
I’m not sure how many conservatives are celebrating. Most of the ones I know or have read seem to be sitting around going “WTF?” The only positive aspect most of them seem to find is that the whole thing makes Obama look really lame.
Let’s see, a bunch of groups that want to fight over and seize power using votes and never relinquish it. Yup, America.
Or as I like to call it, ‘no-fly zone’.
“Facing what they see as unattractive Westernization, increased crime, and injustice — while doubtful about rapid material progress — officers see Islam as the answer to problems of identity, social justice, and internal stability. Thus, a far more Islamic Egypt is attractive. Those who would never want the Brotherhood to rule the state are often open to its having far more influence in running the religious establishment and society.”
Ya think? But don’t worry, both Hillary Clinton and Obama said that the Muslim Brotherhood was nothing to worry about. Radical Islamists wouldn’t dare take over in Egypt. If the two of them are saying that, it’s a good bet that the Muslim Brotherhood will take over in a few months. As usual, our own government was so anxious to get rid of Mubarak, they never even stopped to consider what would come after him. And, as usual, what’s going to come after Mubarak will probably be worse than Mubarak, probably as bad as what Iran got after their revolution.
By the way, where is that young, hip, Google executive who helped overthrow Mubarak? You know the guy I’m talking about, the guy who said that Egypt would be a model of democracy if Mubarak could only be overthrown? Where did that kid go? I don’t see him around anymore, do you? He could probably serve as a symbol of what the Obama administration has done to Egypt. It helped to get rid of a dictator whithout thinking about what would come in after him and once Mubarak was deposed, it was shocked, shocked mind you, that things didn’t turn out the way they thought it would. How pathetic these people are. No wonder the Israelis are terrified of Obama. They can see a president who doesn’t have a clue on how Middle Eastern politics is run, let alone how it is won.
Islam is the answer not because of what’s been done in Tehran but as a response to their own society’s needs.
Especially because of the insh’allah factor, which explains why true muslims are devoid of energy and initiative for anything, except the one thing in the universe which allah, mohammed’s imaginary alter-ego, is powerless to influence: jihad. Otherwise, allah can is powerful enough to even reverse the laws of gravity if it feels like doing so and, so long as Egyptian muslims submit to its will, turn Cairo into a wealthy, clean, organized and civilized city like Tokyo without its followers having to lift a finger towards that end.
It might sound crazy, but that’s how a muslim mind truly works.
“…allah can is powerful enough to even reverse the laws of gravity if it feels like doing so….”
How primitive Islam is! Thank heavens our Judeo-Christian beliefs contain not an iota of such supernatural fiddle-faddle.
The difference, of course, is the critical mass of people in each culture who are living according to the religious teachings.
Somehow, most Christians and Jews living in the West (and the great mass of unaffiliated among us) aren’t mired in the supernatural fiddle-faddle, as you say, of their tradition.
It’s different in the Islamic world.
Was it in Sudan, that panic awhile back, that cellphones were capable of taking away a man’s, er, manhood?
There are good reasons why the Islamic world is irredeemably backward; and one of the best is their childish inability to put literal acceptance of the Koran and all that goes with it behind them.
Yeah, right. Ever heard the term “Protestant work ethic?”
I hope to God I never start using expressions like ‘ins’allah’.
I don’t think any sleepy eyed Mexicans in sombreros have used ‘mañana’ since Speedy Gonzalez cartoons preceded a late night movie on TV with Carmen Miranda singing “Mamãe Eu Quero”.
Give them an in’shallah and they take a mile.
At last. A clear and level-headed analysis of the obvious.
Congratulations, Dr Rubin.
But now, what can those who love liberty, and are fast seeing their world stolen from them by deceit, do now about the situation?
Yes, it should have been seen in January, but what can we do in March?
Come December the world seems set to take another step towards totalitarianism.
This hostility has been unaltered by the efforts of President Barack Obama to make Muslims like America. Indeed, this has only led to a new conspiracy theory that Obama favors the Brotherhood and the Islamization of Egypt.
If Obama is judged by the results of his conduct then it is not a theory. He is either a closet Muslim or a gross incompetent. The fact that he intervened in Egypt and Libya, (where the rebels are largely Islamist) but not in Iran (where the rebels were largely anti-theocracy) is instructive. At a minimum Obama is a Muslim sympathizer and a leftist enabler of the Islamist cause.
This is what I have suspected but until now have read nothing of.
“Facing what they see as unattractive Westernization, increased crime, and injustice — while doubtful about rapid material progress — officers see Islam as the answer to problems of identity, social justice, and internal stability.”
This is what most in the West and especially most Americans cannot understand. That the Western/American way of life would be unattractive and distasteful to other cultures such as Islam. It hasn’t helped that the neoconservatives under Bush reinforced this hatred when they decided to launch nation building (in the image of the US) in the Middle East.
It is a fact that with Western style democracy there is increased crime and injustice. Often the American legal system is perceived as protecting the criminals/crooks (that have money to pay for lawyers) while the victims (working class people without much money to pay for expensive lawyers) are often left to suffer without justice. What other explanation is there for the US having the largest prison population on the planet—more than twice that of China, which has five times the population.
This also explains why more than 80% of Chinese do not support a Western style democracy in China because their culture values harmony over increased crime and injustice. Someone might say China has lots of corruption and injustice but it is not as serious to most Chinese as those in the West believe. Study India’s democracy and learn what has happened there in relation to increased crime and injustice.
In 1980, China was drug free. Then in the 1980s China joined the WTO, opened its doors to world trade and today the drug problems are back along with the crime and corruption that come with a Westernized lifestyle.
It would appear that Islamists in the Middle East have seen what happens to countries such as India and China when they become too westernized and do not want that to happen there. In addition, thanks to gullible Westerners/Americans that believe in the superiority of the Western/American Christian lifestyle, the Islamists appear to have achieved their goal, which may turn into another serious threat to the West and Israel leading to more wars and devastation adding to the threat of survival as a civilization.
Wouldn’t it be ironic if the West/America had to eventually turn to countries such as the BRIC— Brazil, Russia, India and China—to from an alliance to survive.
After all, the enemy of my enemy is my friend and all of these countries, with the exception of Brazil, face Islamic threats.
You’re right, it is a question of balancing values. Safety, stability, prosperity, and identity are values that impel people to form societies and political systems. All societies and political systems require their members to sacrifice another value, personal liberty, to greater or lesser degrees in order to achieve the other ones. The US and countries that follow its example have attempted to minimize that sacrifice and maximize individual freedom.
So what’s the lesson from China and India and Islam? Personal liberty is an illusory value? Freedom is less important than safety, stability, and prosperity? I’m not asking as an incredulous American. I know we idolize personal liberty here. Do we really know what that means? Are we right – is liberty worth sacrificing safety, stability, and prosperity? And what about identity? Can a society made up of millions of ornery individuals compete with one made up of millions marching in lockstep? Who gets to decide?
Umm, YES?
What we’ve just seen is the Islamic equivalent of the Bolshevik revolution: One relatively small, but well organized group taking over during the chaos of regime change.
It remains to be seen if there will be a Egyptian civil war, but I think not.
And all of this information was completely unknown to the Obama administration!
Since Ronald Reagan left office, the US has done nothing but foster radical Islam everywhere in the world.
This has been so consistent that nobody can convince me that it is any accident.
We had best get the hell out of the Mideast and Afghanistan and prepare. From all accounts (except for Nick Kristoff, Paul Krugman, Friedman and his Havaad elite pals, MSM, and the usual leftists) Libya is probably going to turn out worse than Egypt. Yemen..same. Bahrain…who knows…same for the who knows Saudis. Pakistan…same eventually. The Mideast is Islaming up and no good can come from that. I predict a nuclear device will go off within 5 years (I predict 5 years because 5 years ago I predicted 10 years), most likely from an Islamist group and then the game will change. Islam is going to raise it’s head and become ever more violent and at some point, Dear God In Heaven, we will be forced to take off that head or surrender. There will be no choice. Talk to me all day about chatting with the Islamist and you would be wasting your breath. They understand might, how to game our free societies and that is it. Sorry, but something very evil is rising in the Arab Islamic and Islamic world in general. May Allah give them pause to think about what they are doing. Achmed!!! you don’t want to open that door my friend. Please.
“Did Islamism Win Egypt’s Revolution?”
You misspelled “Islam”.
It eludes me why some in West continue to bitterly cling to the stupid notion that the flowers of democracy will soon be blooming across the sterile soil of Islam. The Muslims, by definition, are steeped in Islam. It permeates everything they say, everything they believe, everything they do. These people don’t aspire to the same things we do – to assert such indicates an amazing squeezing together of hubris, denial, and even naivete in the space of a single human head.
Their creed is Islam. It is an enemy creed. They are Muslims. They are our enemies.
Some who believed that what was going on in Cairo was all about peace, love and yellow sunshine may have changed their minds. But most have simply moved on to the next exciting episode of the Middle East reality show. As for me, I’ve still got them Egyptian Revolution Blues (parody song, written while the riots were still raging, and now up over 16K views):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqiGmodx33A
Thanks professor Rubin, this is the kind of scrutiny that is needed. I am sure it will take quite a while for it to filter upwards to the political decision makers in the U.S. … and in your own country, Israel, for that matter.
More generally, I think people who live in the U.S. have a hard time understanding that the people in Arab societies have been abused and terrorized for so long that there aren’t many “good guys” left, at least not at an organizational level.
What’s so hard about understanding that Obama went into overdrive demanding that “Mubaraki must go!” because he knew the Muslim Brotherhood would pick up the pieces? Endgame is annihilating Israel, for Islamists and for Hussein.
Their creed is Islam. It is an enemy creed. They are Muslims. They are our enemies.
We are supposed to solve this problem while politely ignoring that the core value of Islam is Jihad. I can appreciate that it is unwise to go to war against one billion people but war will be the inevitable result if we do not deal with the tenets that drive that religion.
So let’s put an end to this nonsense that religious beliefs are beyond scrutiny (with of course the present exception of Christianity). And let’s insist that we will only support nations which practice the universal values of freedom of conscience and freedom of speech.
It’s amazing how many Egyptians want to hide the fact that they are in favor of Islamic law being the main source of jurisprudence in an openly Islamic country whose legal official religion is Islam and whose Constitution’s main source of jurisprudence presently is Islamic law.
They are very, very sneaky like that and like forming groups that don’t mention Islam with names like “I Love You” when they really mean “I Hate You”. Oh, and they grovel too – did you hear about that? I’ve also heard that although Egyptians breathe every single day, they rarely talk about it openly.
My mom once told me that if you overcook something that you end up with what you started with – nothing.
don’t ask obama …ask the women protesters who were forced to have virginity tests to avoid prison.
Good Lord! You know that was the vaunted egyptian military, closer to Mubareks’ idea of regime security than any expression of “Islam”?
You know that the entire purpose of protesting was because the ENTIRE regime security apparatus beat, tortured, raped and sodomized (men and women), imprisoned without trial and murdered citizens with impunity?
Khalid Said, the young man murdered that started this revolution, was just a guy who happened to video the police dividing up the goods and money from a drug operation. Not taking it in as evidence. He aired that video and he was beaten to death in the street in front of witnesses BY THE POLICE. Literally, he had his had bashed in against a stair railing (the pictures were gruesome). Then they threw his body in the street, pretended to call an ambulance, took him to the morgue and told the reporters and his family that he “asphyxiated”, most likely due to drug overdose.
The pictures told a different story. His jaw, obviously broken in multiple places, was literally hanging down, attached to one side by some muscles. His teeth were all broken or missing. The bones of his skull were smashed to such a degree that his head was literally cone shaped on top.
He begged for his life at the end. Begged for mercy. We know because people did what Khalid did and pulled out their cell phones to video and take snapshots, but they did nothing to help him. Why? Because they were afraid to be next.
That IS how they operated (and still do, that is why the human rights activists and revolutionaries are constantly agitating against it). Sure, half the people are asking for these jackboots to come back to save them from crime, but the other half would like to see them go. new police and the military back in its barracks instead of running security.
If you had half the guts to look at the videos of horrific torture these creeps (thugs posing as police hired and trained under Mubarek’s administration) passed around as “trophies” as you all do to spew this rancid hatred, you would be sick to your stomachs. That is not a bug of Islam, but a feature of oppressive states, regardless of what scumbag leads it under whatever ideology.
Yet, here you all are expounding on the subject of “virginity tests” as if it was the course of Islam and not the brutality of a state apparatus that still does not know how to act in a free democracy respecting human rights.
No human being deserves what happened to Khalid Said. No one. Not a Jew, not a Christian, not a Muslim.
Our enemies are not 1 billion Muslims. They are Salafist Wahabis planning their world caliphate of hate and oppression of “the other”, and Iranian twelvers hoping that Iran will bring about the coming of the Mahdi in a rain of fire.
Our enemy is always oppression and tyranny, whatever it’s form.
Sic Semper Tyranis
I wonder what is meant by “ending the peace treaty with Israel” War? Militarization of the Sinai? (the very move that brought them the glorious victory of 1967) To what end should the treaty be ended? It costs them nothing and ending it would be expensive. The US would certainly end its military shipments and support and who would step in, nobody I suspect. Who else would give them fighter jets or tanks and you cant fight Israel without those, a lesson the Egyptians know well.
I wonder too about Gaza. Do they really want to let the Hamas cat out of the bag? Gazans have literacy, life expectancy, and economic benefits on par with Egypt. The blockade is all but nonexistant anymore except military stuff. Palestinians were behind at least some of the attacks on Egyptian resorts. Hezbolla, allied with Hamas has carried out operations in Egypt. Help them what? Maybe aim the rockets better.
I suspect all of this is the same old thing. The various groups, indeed the entire Arab world, can only agree on one thing. Hatred of Israel and the Jews.
The Caliphate is reforming, the left is going to be surprised when they are the second target of the Caliphate, followed by they United States.
Second target? Why would the Islamists attack their enablers?
Was this on the news?
Okay…I have to be the contrarian here even if I agree that the over all basis of the post is relatively true (ie, the MB is likely to get a nice chunk of seats in parliament along with the leftists if for no other reason than campaigns take funding and organization which they have in spades).
1) Does everybody reading this know that Islam has been the official religion of the Egypt by the constitution for over three decades?
2) That the 1971 constitution explicitly states that Sharia is the basis of law? (Mostly applied to civil law such as divorce, inheritance, child custody, etc)
This isn’t new stuff just because the MB might suddenly have a higher political profile
3) That saying that the Egyptian leftist have an Islamic bent is like saying that many Democrats profess Christianity, too. (I know some on the right won’t believe that – Dems being Christians – but, yeah, I mean, we are still a nation with a majority of people at least claiming Christianity as their religion)
4) That saying the Taggamu party “infiltrated” the April 6 movement is like saying the Republican party infiltrated the Tea Party. Hellooo? The April 6 Movement started as socialist students forming to support the April 6 2008 union strikes. Taggamu is the Democratic Union Party and yes, more socialist than the NDP, but the April 6 students are socialists and by wrote union supporters. The idea that they were “infiltrated” is kind of funny.
5) Uh…let me repeat that part about the NDP being socialist or the Islamist being socialist. I mean, we are talking about a country whose recently former rendition came out of the Pan Arabist SOCIALIST movement. What did anyone think they were before that? Poland? Oops, Poland has a socialist bent, too. It’s all that close knit European life.
6) You might have missed the recently passed amendment to the Egyptian constitution (by SCAF no less) that not only states that no party can be a religious party, but that they cannot bar membership based on gender, language, origin or creed. Get the last part…creed (ie, political or religious). That is obviously the SCAF knocking the MB down a peg or two since the MB’s hoped for new political party, Freedom and Justice, says that it’s members must be members of the Muslim Brotherhood, ie, Muslim by creed. SCAF just said “not so fast” brothers.
7) While you all are navel gazing, biting your fingernails over the MB, you are missing some of the underlying story. The MB is starting to see some serious splintering. Not just the al Wasat party (which is headed by a guy who departed the MB several years ago), but the Nhada party (Renassaince party) that is made up of a chunk of the MB Youth and various other objectors from the party because they think the 2007 platform is illiberal and unsustainable. They are also angry because they believe that the MB “old guard” fixed the last internal elections for the MB leadership council to keep the “liberal” younger crowd out.
8) While the MB and Revolution Youth movements did coordinate, there was another story involved here. First of all, the MB main organization didn’t just stand off and wait until the time was right to come to the fore. The real story missed by most is that it was the MB Youth (who think the old guard is a bunch of old fogies) who coordinated with the other groups without the MB Guardianship Council’s approval. In fact, against their direct opposition. Further, if you had read the news today from Egypt, you would have discovered that the MB Youth have called for a conference to discuss the future constitution. They say explicitly that they did not support the referendum and are unhappy with the outcome and the MB leadership’s support. Better yet, the MB Guardianship council just came out and said that they did not authorize this conference and it is NOT an MB conference. The Youth said “stick it, it is”.
Now, what does that tell you? There is a struggle going on inside the MB. The struggle is in the favor of the more liberal movements because it’s the “youth” driving it and 60% of Egypt’s population is under 30. More importantly, the MB’s restrictions on women in political life has irritated their female contingent, most of whom are the “youth” and represent 51% of the over all population.
Of course, that doesn’t mean the MB is going to completely fall apart. What it means is that it may get whittled down a bit to a more manageable size and relation to the demands of the rest of the population. It is true that this is more likely to benefit the socialists (who, as Rubin says, is likely to be the second largest block in the assembly), but it also gives some room for the liberals.
Second, don’t count the liberals out. There are things in the wind that seems like these guys (and women) have a clue what their situation is and are making plans around that. It may seem odd, but these groups actually have a clue about politics. Mostly because they are young, educated and upwardly mobile. They read European news, watch American and European elections, etc, etc. They work for European and American companies in Egypt.
Neither are they fond of the MB. In fact, the socialists aren’t fond of the MB either (all you have to do is read their twitter feeds, egads!) I would like to point out, though, that Rubin is correctly pointing out a few items. The liberals are disorganized. Right now. I don’t expect that to last long. They don’t like the MB, but Egyptians tend to see the Islamists in two separate categories: Salafis (the Sunni school of jurisprudence that gave us AQ; the Egyptians do NOT like the AQ) and the MB, Islamic, but just this side of crazy.
There is no love for Hamas, just toleration on the part of some. There is a great concern about Gaza. Seriously, no disrespect to Israel, but every time Egypt opens up the border crossing for supplies, medical treatment, etc there is a great influx of refugees who try very hard to stay in Egypt. To the Egyptians, Hamas sucks for governing so badly, but the Israelis suck more (no, I am not anti-Israel, just an observation) because they run the blockades that keep food and supplies out and people in that cr@p hole.
Egypt’s border is with Gaza. There is no way that support is going to go away so long as the dirt hole exists. It is going to exist for a long time, so we are going to have to decide whether Egypt’s Gaza leaning policy is enough to dissuade our friendship with Egypt. I think not because, regardless of who is in charge, it gives us a back door and a pressure point on Hamas.
Finally, though, I disagree with Rubin’s supposition that there is some great “hate” for America in Egypt. Hate is far to strong a word. More like “frustration” and “irritation” which we return. They are trying to deal with our paradox of always talking about freedom and democracy, but holding out against it or for it based on national “interests”. You have to keep in mind that these people have not really had a say in their government so the decisions of state to keep the state secure based on the state’s over all “interests” vs. personal desires of its citizens is not yet a concept they have had to practice.
That, I believe, will be part of the learning curve. Though, I do believe that a large group “gets it”, since even the leftists and Islamist MB who do not love Israel aren’t in a hurry to abrogate their peace treaty. They think they have enough problems without going to war with Israel.
To finalize, yes, we need to be concerned about the MB or some other form of Islamists growing their power. No, we should not turn it into the bogeyman that haunts our dreams because that is giving more than their fair share of power to the MB. Yes, we should figure out how to help the liberals speed along their plan for organizing and participating in up coming elections. They have more potential, I think, than Rubin gives them credit for. They won’t rule the country as a separate, overwhelming parliament block, but, in terms of parliamentary style government, they could achieve enough of a block to play the minority controlling party.
That’s a fact we need to wrap OUR heads around and figure out how to assist instead of fanning the flames of fear.
the hard-line always wins over the liberal. even when the liberal wins he becomes hard-line …or dead.
yes most here are aware that sharia is the law of egypt. the MB want it to be strictly enforced not as done by Mubarack. and not just applied to general issues but to all issues ..more along the lines of Iran.
Your universalism: ‘the hard line always wins over the liberal’ is disproven by history.
If your assertion had even a speck of truth, there would have been no Reformation, no modernization, no USA, no democracies, no scientific innovations, no new technologies. Nothing but primitive tribal economies living in hard line fundamentalism.
Al-Masry Al-Youm is reporting the story about new political parties in Egypt thus:
“The Egyptian government (which is the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces or SCAF) on Wednesday approved a proposed amendment to Law 40 of 1977, which regulates the foundation of political parties. The new law would allow parties to be established by notification, while preventing the establishment of parties based on religion.
The law prohibits the establishment of parties based on religious or geographical grounds or based on discrimination between citizens on grounds of sex, origin, language, religion or creed.”
It’s unclear as to whether this is a done deal or not since most believe a new constitution will be built from scratch; certainly there are many who wish it. If so, it will be a stunning blow to the Muslim Brotherhood and now awakened ‘salafists’ and a clear message that those boys are invited out and so is sectarianism in politics. They’re saying, “We go to mosque, you don’t come to us.” It is also a clear message that the MB could find itself once again out in the cold if they agitate too much.
As far as anti-Western and anti-American ‘hate’, you would think that at a time of upheaval and chaos during the uprising that saw at least several hundred Egyptians killed, that there would have been at least one bullet for the 50,000 Americans living in Egypt and tens of thousands of further Westerners here living and as tourists yet there was not one death.
You would think that in all the time I spent with the crowds during those days that among those millions that at least one person, just one, would have said something nasty to me but this never happened.
Sometimes what you don’t see is as important as what you do and there were no American or Israeli flags burned and not one sign I saw with Jewish caricatures; one saw a few signs with a Star of David over Mubarak’s face. Were there to be simply an expression of anti-Semitism, one wonders why a more direct expression of it was nowhere evident.
Boys, I think we have ourselves a democracy – at least for now. Make no mistake, there is plenty of maneuvering and jockeying for position going on, enough to make the novel “Dune” proud and nothing is finished with this story.
Tomorrow, protesters are taking to Tahrir once again in protest against the new anti-protest law of which ironically there was a much more deadly version already in place at the time of the original protests.
However disorganized the original protesters are politically, they are not so when it comes to putting feet on the street and that is what started the whole thing and it is that which still has the most power. It remains to be seen how mollified the general public is and willing to let things play out as they are now and just be happy that Mubarak is gone and that they voted for the first time in their lives in a way that actually counted.
no democracy on the egyptian horizon.
I will bet on it. it will be hard islam. the shariah is entrenched they need not run a party on religious lines. a moot point.
when people are unwilling and incapable of forming a line (an indication of respect for others) then they is no hope for democracy.
you can apply this test anywhere …even in new orleans …the tipping point is coming.
Being rude at McDonald’s is hardly a basis for political thought. And anyway, wasn’t the whole point of Democracy in America to curb our impulses to think only of ourselves and act civilized?
The Egyptians waited in line enough to vote on a referendum just now and they didn’t bum-rush the voting stations with clubs.
That’s democracy and it’s happening barring some disaster. I think you won’t acknowledge it as such until they all dress like Uncle Sam and become obsessed with fantasy football.
Americans don’t even have the balls to get in the street and save their own country from being overwhelmed by simple minded campesinos. Not exactly a litmus test for intelligence and character being surpassed there is it.
while I often agree with you ..ask el Barahdei if the lines were orderly. or even ask the google executive who thought he brought obama to prominence in egypt.
yes they can be forced to line up and the only one left standing with the ability to exert that force is the muslim brotherhood.
…no democracy in a muslim country. the west has made a very big error.. they should have stood back ..no good players in the middle east with the small exception of ISRAEL who the world would like to see gone. go figure.
this is the sad state of the west’s elitist strategy.
Well James we shall see. Nobody is interfering so far as I can tell.
Nice it would be to see an Egypt with basic civil rights and representative government. Green light is already there. Mostly people want home and hearth. Just a chance to make it with a reasonable playing field. Revolution gonna screw that up for a while but whomever can provide prosperity and security will win in the long run.
I think you downplay the relationship with Egypts most prosperous neighbor. That is not mere propaganda. It is very real and a tighter relationship could boost both. There is no movement in that direction I can find. There is my problem with your observation and analysis.
I might understand my own analysis better if I knew what neighbor you were talking about.
Thanks for your realistic analysis…Its fact-based and objective analysis counters some of the breathless ‘The Islamists are coming! The Islamists are coming!’ rhetoric that is so predominant here.
I repeat my oft-stated points. The Middle East peoples do not want yet another totalitarian dictatorship – and Islamic fundamentalism is just that.
They do want to engage in a robust economic mode – not just live at or below the poverty line via regenerated handouts and services provided by the current Rulers. That means – the ME must move into a middle class economy, a private enterprise small and medium business economy..rather than the statist socialist economy now operative in the ME. The political system must also change to empower this new middle class and that means: constitutional democracy.
Furthermore, to suggest that the people of the ME are appalled by Western freedom and ‘morality’ is naive. People are the same all over the world, and you’d better believe that licentiousness, corruption and etc are as endemic if not more, in the ME, as in the West.
You may believe, as does Ahmandinejad that ‘there are no homosexuals in Iran’…but that’s nonsense. You may think that they all believe what one of their imams said, that ‘women who don’t completely cover up are the cause of earthquakes’. Heh.
And if you think that these people are willing, and want, to give up their cellphones, cars, Nike shoes, jeans, television and etc…in favor of Islamic fundamentalism – then.. as is said, I have a bridge in Florida to sell you.
And they are less interested in Israel, despite Israel’s view that the whole ME is all about I-P, than they are in modernization, economic opportunities, and a full and open future of possibilities.
ETAB
dark chocolate …no too sweet.
I’m not sure of your point. I’m the one who gets the chocolate – and yes, I like dark chocolate..but the 64% kind.
As I said, there is no functional difference in infrastructure between a dictatorship (secular or otherwise) and an Islamic fundamentalist govt. They are both two-class, authoritarian, anti-individual…and cannot deal with the changed variables in Egypt.
Namely – they can’t deal with the fact that the population has increased beyond the carrying capacity of a statist redistributive economy and MUST (that’s MUST) move into a growth-oriented system of wealth production. Namely, the economy must be capitalist private small and medium businesses. No statist redistribution as the sole source of wealth production.
I find it amazing that people actually consider that the Middle East people want MORE totalitarianism.
What proof do you have that they want more? They’ve been fighting for freedom – to have some say in their political system, to have a better economic life – and this doesn’t mean that they want the dictator or king to hand out more subsidies or interest free loans or come up with the idea to add 65,000 more public service jobs (Bahrain, Saudi Arabia)…which jobs will do no work but will have an income..
Again, neither tribal dictatorships, hereditary monarchies or Islamic fundamentalistm can deal with what almost every one of you ignores: the fact that the population has increased beyond the carrying capacity of a statist economy. You HAVE to have a middle class private market economy to generate the wealth to sustain that size of population!!!!
So – no, no matter how much you people salivate over the presumed ‘there’ll all be Islamist fundamentalist states’…they won’t. You can’t eat ideology.
And yet again, this situation has absolutely nothing to do with Israel-Palestine. I know that Israel would prefer that the Islamic nations retain their dictators but – such a view that Muslims can only exist within repression and cannot handle freedom ..is its own bigotry.
The transformation from a two-class, statist redistributive economy and a totalitarian political system..to a three class capitalist market economy and a constitutional democracy is not simple. You don’t flick a switch and the new structure emerges full and operative. It takes time. But, it’s inevitable there..
Again, to consider that the Middle East people want yet another dictatorship …and there’s no difference between secular dictatorship and Islamic fundamentalism…is unrealistic and ignores the basic variables of economic and historical change.
…you miss the point. it isn’t what the people want that will determine this.
if that were the case then there would be happy smiling people in north korea.
And you miss the point. The situation in N. Korea isn’t yet at the critical threshold of breaking so that the dictatorial Rulers are supplanted by The People.
An organization of a population within a framework of Ruler-Ruled can be very stable IF and ONLY IF the well-being of the people is not reduced beyond a critical threshold and if the people are isolated enough and powerless enough that they cannot try to take power over their own lives. That is the case in N. Korea and is not the case in the ME.
Again, the people in the ME are not in the process of overthrowing their dictators in order to insert a new form of dictatorship – Islamic fundamentalism.
The Egyptian military sent a clear message in refusing to cross the Egyptian/Libyan border to aid those who want Libya to follow a different path, than what Gaddafi has dished out.
My thanks to those who view the Greater Mid East through the prism of the power struggle between the House of Saud and Khameini, Ahmadinezhad, and the rest of the deformed Souls running Iran into the ground. For, we are seeing what the eastern front was like in Europe during the Second World war. After all, Mao got it correct when he said that politics is war
without blood, and war is politics with blood.
Zarqawi and or bin Laden arrive in Cairo to a heroe’s welcome no later than the end of May.
GAZA
Life Expectancy 72.9
Infant Mortality Rate 22/1,000
Literacy Rate 92.4%
Egypt
Life expectancy 70 years
Infant mortality Rate 27.26/1,000
Literacy Rate 66%
Yep the poor Gazans need Egyptian help. Since food, consumer goods and some exports are no longer banned by the blockade the only thing I could see happening is stopping the effort at controlling smuggling tunnels and opening the border.
You will find that on movement of people it is more Hamas keeping people in than anything else. Little of anything except weapons and contraband (booze etc) coming though the tunnels now since it is cheaper to just buy stuff in the open market. Irony about all of this is the Mavi – flotilla folks won. There is almost no blockade left anymore. The policy has changed. The reason they dont crow about the victory is that is not what they are after. Palestinian well being is not the concern. Israel is – and it has to fit the assigned character so the facts will be made to fit the story.
2 weeks ago Israel intercepted the Victoria, a cargo ship full of Iranian weapons including advanced long range anti-ship missiles bound for Gaza. It cannot be in the interest of the Egyptian government to have a group not under its control and on its maritime border have these advanced weapons so they still have to control the border.
I doubt the average Egyptian has an accurate picture of what is going on in Gaza. It is part of the bogeyman story that simply goes unquestioned. I doubt much will actually change except in rhetoric.
The best thing of all would be to have Egypt re-annex Gaza. Now watch the look of panic among Egyptians who know what is really going on when you suggest that. Nobody wants that lovely piece of beachfront property.
At worst a fully armed Hamas will decide to go all out against Israel. That would be a catastrophe for the Palestinians beyond anything they have known thus far. Because of the propoganda war Israeli restraint given its capabilities is sorely underestimated.
I agree.. What I get out of Egyptian angst over Palestine has a lot more to do with what they have been fed via the state run media than what they know for themselves. Or, I should say, that the outside and state run media are reporting a paradox or dichotomy re: the Palestinian situation. There is also a matter of how history is taught in the state run universities. A history that, like Iraq, does not quite match up with the greater truth/reality because it is shaped towards supporting the previous regimes’ aims.
I think that is going to change to a degree. Only because the great number of protests going on at the universities demanding that Mubarek regime appointed deans and administrators step down. The students want the schools to actually teach some things that aren’t BS NDP/Mubarek related or leaning topics.
We don’t know where everything is going, but it does seem that the Egyptian’s know more about what is going on than we do.
BLT Marxism, and Islam go hand in hand.
ETAB – You got it right! KAT-MO- you got it right. JAMES MAY–You also got it right — We do in fact have ourselves a democracy! FINALLY 3 people with informed opinions who aren’t taking out of their…..bottom half.
David Lincoln -FYI – The Egyptian Military has been providing the rebels (freedom fighters ) with weapons.
General Malaise makes Chicken Little sound downright optimistic.Gotta wonder why Malaise isnt’ stressing out about Iraq – after all the VP of Iraq is the leader of the MB in Iraq. Has been for years. Yeah—Democracy won’t come to Iraq!
You also gotta wonder why Malaise isn’t concerned about Israel — after all they have FOUR members of the MB sitting on the Knesset! OMG—The Caliphate expands! Sheesh!!
Apparently Democracy can only come in the M.E. imposed by the Americans at the barrel of a gun! Oh wait.. that hasn’t worked out so well 7 yrs later…
Egypt is now a neophyte democracy and it will continue to grow.. look for Egypt to become the beacon of democracy in the Arab world.. much more successful than Iraq.
FYI – If the Americans’ hadn’t backed the Ayatollah as the great hope to prevent the spread of Communism in the Middle East – we & the Israelis wouldn’t be dealing with Achmadinajerk today.
Oh yeah. AND GUESS WHO’S FED UP OF HAMAS. The Very People Who Elected Them. Seems that Hamas are much better at community organizing than at at Governing. ( Gee…that rings familiar! )
Hamas sent 50 mortars into Israel two days ago, and danced in the streets last week as a Jewish family was murdered.
What laws will the New Egypt be using to control the population. I read they really love the Koran, Muhammad, and the god Sin.
I guess one hope for the best where Islam exists. Now, that’s funny.
Leatherneck, I agree with you. Anyone foolish enough to believe that a real democracy can co-exist with Islam has either been living under a rock for his whole life or has a SERIOUS problem with denial, illustrated nicely by ETAB’s ludicrous assertion that “there’s no difference between secular dictatorship and Islamic fundamentalism”. Absent denial, only someone who has been paying absolutely no attention to the events of the last decade could make a statement like that.
Leatherneck, YOU get it.
…and there’s no difference between secular dictatorship and Islamic fundamentalism…
That’s right; there’s no difference between secular dictatorship and Islamic fundamentalism.
Both are authoritarian, both reject the existence of free individuals, both reject the human use of reason, both operate by force. The secular dictatorship by military and economic force to control the people; Islamic fundamentalism by military and psychological force to control the people.
Neither can exist without force, neither can adapt to change, neither can exist in our modern world except as parasitic on the knowledge and technological advances of free people.
Now – if you want to deny my equation, then, apart from your asserting that they are not similar (which assertion of yours is not an argument) how about providing some analysis for your assertion?
Secular dictatorships by definition are not religious; Islamic fundamentalism by definition has an Islamic component that transcends all other considerations i.e. the seventy two virgins, killing for Allah, worldwide Caliphate and on and on, while secular dictators are primarily concerned with only with their own power and enrichment.
While the Mubaraks and other Islamic dictators may, on the surface, not appear to believe or adhere to the Islamic crap themselves, and appear to use their power to enrich themselves, much like a secular dictator would, that is where the similarities end as they continue to promote world domination of Islam, and the majority of their people are becoming more fundamentalist. Witness the recent news articles that Egyptian airlines has removed Israel from its maps.
In nearly fourteen centuries there has never been an Islamic democracy because democracy is anathema to Islam.
An airplane made of tinker-toys will not fly, and neither will a democracy in a country whose citizens, for nearly a millennium and a half, have had no experience with democracy other than to destroy it whenever possible, and would destroy Israel, the only democracy in the region, if they could. They may, for a while, have something of a “Potemkin democracy” but there is almost zero chance of it morphing into anything resembling democracy as it is known in the West, especially when one considers that some Western democracies, even with their long histories, are beginning to look shaky.
Many polls are now showing that an overwhelming majority of Egyptians favor an Islamic republic. How can that bode well for democracy?
The elephant in the living room that you continue to ignore is Islam. How about some critical analysis of that? Islam CLEARLY is not just another religion. If you ignore that fact the rest of your analysis is meaningless.
chuck – you don’t seem to understand my point. I’m saying that both secular dictatorships and Islamic fundamentalism are similar. I am referring to their operational mode in a nation. Neither can operate within democracy.
Now – if you are referring to the ideology of each – that’s a different story. But I certainly never addressed this issue and don’t see its relevance with regard to Egypt or indeed, any nation. Sure, the dictator is only concerned about power over the people in ‘his’ nation, and sure, the Islamists is concerned with the utopian universalism of Islam.
But that’s not the issue. I’m talking about how each would, acting as the authoritative govt of a nation – behave. And my point is that they are no different as a govt: authoritarian, anti-individual, collectivist – and operationally dysfunctional in large industrial economies.
That is baloney. The real issue between democracy and ANY religion, is what role it plays. If religion is used as the basis of state, no, there is no democracy. AND, I believe that stands true for even the multiple sects of Christianity. Can you imagine a democracy that is based on Catholicism? (No offense to Catholics, but…). The state may have some similar make up to our current one, but there would be all sorts of issues about people who are not Catholic, people who marry non-Catholics, etc.
That is why religion and state are separated. it is the struggle that the liberals (who, for better or worse, include the socialists, etc) are going to have to take to the elections and in such a way that it a) does not disparage religion (hell, if some politician disparaged Christianity on wholesale here, they’d be figuratively beaten to death with the subject, so it stands to reason these guys are going to have to stay off of criticizing the religion of 85% of the population); b) makes individual rights and equality THE MESSAGE c) insists that separation of Mosque and state can be the only method that assures those rights; d) Reminds Muslims that they are not all worshiping at the same mosque or under the same school of jurisprudence/thought even if they are all “Muslim” and any law that disparages the rights of one group based on religion (ie having religious law as it’s basis), necessarily, by these divisions, can discriminate against Muslim’s too (who decides what Islamic law is correct or who is the right kind of Muslim?)
That is how they are going to have to formulate their messages. Put it back on the MB, et al and the Muslim population in general. Do they want Islamic law that can discriminate against them, too or do they want protection of individual rights that protect everybody, regardless of religion or creed?
These discussions and formulations are happening now.
Just so you understand, it isn’t that I am not concerned about the MB. Hell, I’m concerned about the Democrats winning another election. It’s still democracy and as long as it looks that way and acts that way, I support it. More importantly, I support the liberals and am doing just about everything I can from 7,000 miles away to push and shove some ideas in their direction.
instead of bleating about the Islamists, how about help the liberals get their message out? Help them get some air time. Give them a forum to speak in so that they can feed it back into the population of Egypt. Give them some weapons that they can use to bash the Islamists.
I mean, most of the people writing on pajamas media came out of the effort to combat the negative reporting on Iraq and by their aggregated efforts, put the spot light on Iraq enough to give some nominal players like the ITM guys a voice that helped them infiltrate their own masses and media. Helped us not abandon Iraq. Helped establish the Democracy Project that brought computers and blogging in Arabic around. That helped get the Arabic populace speaking out in the open. That is helping to get the ideas of free speech and freedom penetrating even the darkest corners (read Bush’s inaugural speech).
Isn’t that the point of Pajama’s media?
Connections, people, in the internet world are a wondrous thing.
For instance, wouldn’t it be great if the folks who came up with this website helped some erstwhile liberals in Egypt come up with the same format? Somewhere they could coalesce, share their ideas, strengthen the message, interview candidates, put on their version of Liberal TV? Point people to for information, etc, etc, etc?
Right now they are using twitter and facebook, not bad, but not quite PJ media style.
You’re afraid the Islamists will win? Help the liberals. I’ve got a few connections if you’re interested. You all already know Sandmonkey.
dark chocolate ..YES
you really miss all my points. but that is ok I never really expect to change peoples opinions. critical thinking isn’t that common.
I think Iraq will be allied with Iran (already is actually) the last elections were not honored as Maleki would not step down even though the secularist won. (so what kind of democracy is it when the elections are not honored) (you miss the point that I am for democracy just am mature enough to know it wont happen in an muslim country …it doesn’t matter what the people what) Bush did make a mess there and obama made sure it would not be able to change direction.
Afghanistan is also a disaster. read some of Diana West’s articles. I agree with her on the war there.
I love Israel. I am very worried that it will be alone against the barbarians. If I was younger I would join the IDF.
trying to belittle my opinions is not an argument. I am an optimistic person but I can also understand why you perceive otherwise.
please take 3 minutes to read this.
http://www.olavodecarvalho.org/english/articles/080121jb_en.html
history will provide your answers and so far they all signs are that I am closer to what is occurring then not.
Critical thinking isn’t all that common? Sure it is; I taught it for over 25 years in my methodology class…and that includes the formal logic as well as the informal fallacies.
Now – to assert that your reason for concluding that democracy cannot happen in a Muslim country…is because you are mature…is a basic critical fallacy. The fallacy of course is that there is no logical or empirical connection between the two clauses:
‘I am mature’….’no democracy in a Muslim country’.
Equally, your assertion that Iraq and Iran are allies is without foundation.
What you, again, ignore, is the infrastructure. You make the error of focusing only on the superstructure, the ideology. You ignore the infrastructure, which is the real causal force of societal organization; namely, the size of the population (and location); the economic mode; the political mode. The superstructure, the ideology, expresses the infrastructure.
When the two are ‘out of sync’ as they are in the ME, a giant tectonic shift must take place. This is not easy; it is what the term implies, a tectonic transformation and involves destruction of the old and construction of the new infrastructure to deal with the new size of the population. The economic and political modes must change..and the ideology will FOLLOW. The ideology is not, as you believe, the driving force, but the expressive force. It will change.
Cheers..and I just bought my own Cote D’Or dark chocolate. For me.
….I didn’t think you would be as selective as you are …I will not bother you any more
like I said I know it is difficult to change some ones mind on an issue. thought you showed promise. let me know when there is a democratic country in the middle east besides Israel.
cheers
ETAB. formal logik is simple the tool.Democracy is not the thing that “happen” it`s the stable process.The lack of real democracy in Muslim states,especialy in Arabian countries is the simple fact!
You can predict the future as you whish.
“Real Democracy” is a slippery term. Was the U.S. a real democracy during slavery, during Jim Crow?
The political Left in America apparently believes there will be no ‘real democracy’ in the U.S. until every ethnic group and nationality in the entire world is exactly represented in the 57 states in an exact demographic reflection of that entire world.
ETAB, You are are a very hard fellow, indeed. You continue to miss the point: Islamic fundamentalist dictatorships and secular dictatorships are only superficially the same. The secular dictatorship is capable of allowing many personal freedoms as long as the dictator’s power is not threatened; the Fundamentalist Islamic dictatorship MUST control every aspect of not only its subject’s lives but also their minds. Big difference.
Regarding democracy, it is often spoken of as an end in itself. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Winston Churchill said something like this: (this is not an exact quote, but, I think close enough) “five minutes conversation with the average voter will make you question the wisdom of democracy.” Democracy can only work, at least in the sense it is discussed here, with a people that holds to a system of right and wrong generally consistent with civilized society. Followers of Islam hold to no such belief system. In an Islamic society “the will of the people” will be far different from what any non-Muslim would like to see.
I am, however, beginning to think that you are just messing with us. From reading your posts I estimate that you likely have a higher IQ than I do. Given that, it is difficult to understand how you could be so insistent on discounting the destructive power of Islam within any society. Having said that, I’m done. None of what is said here will make a dime’s worth of difference anyway.
Well, most commentary has been of conventional secular framework of interpreting recent world events. I’ll put something forth that is of completely different take:
Nazi ties to Islamist go back to midst of WWII. Most these days are aware of the ties of the Palestinian Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Amin Al Husseini, and the time he spent in Berlin during the war collaborating with the Nazi SS, and there is historical film footage of Husseini and Hitler together. The Grand Mufti was representing the Muslim Brotherhood in this capacity, which had by then extended beyond Egypt in its influence and operations. The common cause here (Germany needing to try and control access to Middle-Eastern oil is an obvious motivation from their point of view) is their mutual desire to exterminate Jews.
After Stalingrad, many of the 3rd Reich saw the hand writing on the wall and began preparations for creating corporate structures and arrangements with Axis-friendly nations (i.e., Spain, Argentina, Switzerland) for post war continuance of the Nazi cause gone underground. The Rat Lines saw hundreds if not thousands of Nazis make their way out of Europe after the war. The creation of the CIA and its incorporation of the Nazi East European intelligence network, the Paperclip operation that brought thousands of Germans into US military and industry, the similar incorporation of Nazi scientist into the Soviet Union, all set up perfect conditions for the underground Nazi network to play off the USA and Soviet Union against each other. They knew intimate details of what each was doing and had spies in both camps acting as presumably double agents feeding exaggerated information and fanning the flames of the Cold War (decades later this was all substantiated).
When President Truman wanted to know in 1948 if Martin Bormann was alive in Argentina, instead of going through the CIA, he tapped the FBI to conduct this intelligence operation. This despite he’d signed a legislative act relegating the FBI to domestic and CIA to foreign operations. Even then it was realized that the CIA was hopelessly compromised by the underground Nazis and could certainly not be trusted for providing intelligence on matters concerning post-war Nazi activities. (The answer Truman got was “yes”.)
When the CIA assisted in Nasser’s revolution in Egypt, as Nasser finally comes to power, he pushes aside Western ties and brings in arch Nazis such as Otto Skorzeny (Hitler’s favourite commando and fellow Austrian) to establish the backbone of the elite Egyptian military and intelligence forces. Several hundred former SS and Wehrmacht soldiers joined under Skorzeny’s leadership. High level Nazi scientist such as Wilhelm Voss developed important military industrial ties and launched Egypt’s own missile development program. Even later as Egypt tilted to the Soviet Union this was mediated by a former Nazi, now highly positioned in the Soviet Union.
The hand of the underground Nazis is seen in US affairs in the assassination of JFK. Ruby said the Nazis were behind it – a seemingly spurious remark. Yet Oswald’s ties to White Russians (pro Nazi) in Dallas, a “sheep dipping” of Oswald by sending him on his strange episode in the Soviet Union, the Warren Commission setting Nazi involvement as off limits for consideration, a Nazi-connected Spanish company’s involvement in orchestrating a stock market panic that had been initiated even before the events of JFK’s shooting had taken place that day – this is only scratching the surface of Nazi connections to this event.
Most prominent in the aftermath is how former Nazi SS officers became positioned at the highest levels of NASA operation; NASA would choose Hitler’s birthday, April 20th for important events, such as the day Apollo 16 landed on the moon. More chillingly, the underground Nazis had a front seat at the most important technology undertaking the USA was mounting at the time.
In the years since JFK assassination significant events of false flag operations being fingered back to the likes of the CIA, etc., have mounted. From the many psyops operations such as the Columbine massacre taking place on April 20 to the 9-11 event in 2001 (no protection of southern border in aftermath; collapse of building WTC7 indicates obvious controlled demolition). The latter event is a close analog of the Nazi burning of the Rieschtag; the Patriot Act a parallel to the Enabling Act which stripped important rights from German citizens. The Nazis surrounded the assembly that voted on the Enabling Act with SA men to coerce a “yes” vote. In the US, the Anthrax letters (the Anthrax being of US military lab origin) achieved the same purpose of frightening Congress into passing the Patriot Act.
So skipping forward to the present, we now see at the end of 2010 and beginning of 2011 the rapid shift of the status quo in the Middle-East to one dominated by a “chaos” where the Muslim Brotherhood and Iranian involvement (Syria, Hezbollah in Lebanon, Iraq, Bahrain, and even Turkey) are common threads. Both have ties back to war time Nazis and likewise post-war Nazi influence. All parties share the common cause of extermination of the Jews.
Yet the Muslims are being played by the Nazis. The underground Nazis have orchestrated to destabilize the West (establishing a united Europe dominated by Germany and a concurrent deconstruction of the USA – the Soviet Union was dealt with back when the neo-Nazi orchestration of East Germany being reunited with West Germany took place – soon after, the Soviet Union itself was history). Not having any concern over the welfare for the people of the Arab nations that are undergoing this chaos, the only concern of the underground Nazis is to continue to steer these nations in the direction of believing a massed, confederated attack on Israel is the answer to their most pressing problem. Fanaticism is their tool.
The highest levels of our government have been at odds with the best interest of the nation for decades and with Clinton, Bush, and now Obama, has reached a zenith of bizarre oddity (Obama is in place merely to provide a veneer of “normalcy” to the events taking place). Clinton and Obama both made appearances to the annual Bliderbergers meeting prior to appearing out of no where on the political landscape to become president. (The Bilderberger group was founded by a former Nazi SS officer for the purpose of enacting the Nazi plan of achieving a united Europe.) The Bush family association to Nazis goes back to Prescot and his reliance on John and Alan Dulles brothers. Alan Dulles made sympathetic Nazi remarks (“good to rid Europe of the Jews”) when running the OSS and of course engineered the arrangement that saddled (and infiltrated) the CIA with Nazism at its genesis.
What’s going down in the Middle East right now is not the random walk of history but events unfolding to a long term plan.