There were several designers who were working on similiar projects at that point in history, and all of these shared the same basic concepts. Who originated these concepts? It’s impossible to say with certainty, however concepts are not the same as a design, they are simply the starting point for one.

Any competent designer makes himself familiar with the work of his competition, and adopts the best ideas, without violating any legal protections of intellectual property. It is a fact that automotive firms have shops in which they carefully disassemble cars built by their competition, in order to evaluate the design, and gain whatever knowledge is available. Many a meeting takes place to determine how to use certain design features, without incurring patent violation. Sometimes a court later disagrees that they have successfully done so. While engineering design involves a great deal of creativity, and in my mind, is an art form, it is not the role of a designer to create a unique work of art. The task is execute a design that best meets the goals and requirements of the project.

In the case of the KdF-wagon, it is known that Hitler discussed the project with both Porsche and Ledwinka. For reasons unknown, Hitler awarded the commission to Porsche, although what he had in mind was something like the Tatras, designed by Ledwinka. The target sales price was to be far lower and the production quantity considerably higher.

Adolf Hitler had no respect for personal property, human life or national sovereignty. It isn’t realistic to believe that he cared about intellectual property rights either. Dr. Porsche had been commissioned to execute a design for Hitler, and had discussed the design criteria with him at length. Given the nature of these conversations, it is almost inevitable that certain “existing” design features were the discussed. Doubtlessly Porsche was informed that patent infringement was a legal issue and that Hilter was the law.

Porsche created an excellent design for a car that was sophisticated, yet simple. For it’s time, it set the high water mark in terms of price/perfomance. Porsche deserves recognition for this accomplishment, but credit for the concepts embodied in design rightly belong to others as well. The KdF-wagon built on the work of Ledwinka and Ganz and an accurate history should acknowledge that.

Typical Pajamas story: the simple truth hidden in the middle of theories and assumptions that lead nowhere.

RE #10/biblio44: [...] Henry Ford and Hitler shared a lot of concepts. [...]

viblio44: (viblio is not a typo, I just condensed the stupidest trolls I ever met, vivo and Bbibio44, in one name)…

Yeah, I knew it. Misantrópico is obsessed with me. I give him nightmares during the daytime. His postings are derelict. His viblio idea is so hilarious only HE can laugh hysterically. I don’t even want to think what he does at night. Typical behavior of a stalker.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9_Citro%C3%ABn

(in french, the english link is to light)

For Michelin, never heard of that, if you could give me some more infoS.

Apparently, even the Nazi ignored it !

Heh – immitation as the sincerest form of flattery… oh, well I buy, it. Miata after all is pretty car, despite of those horrible leadlights lids – I’m wondering why Matano didn’t go for… I had once a tiny Opel GT, with some round jars as headlights… awful direction, bad brakes, yet I loved it.
And by the way, since Marie-Claude is around, the 2 CV is a fun ride too – and take this from someone who knows what a Trabant is.

Thanks for the kind words. Hope to see you in Chicago or at the NAIAS if you come to the D in January.

Marie Claude,

Did you know that the Citroen and Michelin companies had Jewish connections? Andre Citroen was Jewish, the grandson of a rabbi I believe. His funeral procession was led by the chief rabbi of Paris. The Michelin family is now Catholic but is of Jewish descent.

Thanks for the reply – I am indeed impressed by your encyclopedic knowledge of automotive design. Thanks also for clarifying that you were not responsible for the offensive title. Do you not understand that your entire premise was tainted at the outset by that? Paul Schilperoord has no such excuse, you know what his take is, and in my opinion, well, you know.

On a historical note, (h)itler was pure evil, but how could he have had anything to do with “stealing” Ganz’s work? Name any Ganz innovation that wasn’t already being used by others prior to (h)itler coming into power in 1933. The future can’t change the past. Ganz is certainly not responsible for the concept of the people’s car, that was all Ford. If Ganz had never lived, (h)itler would still have issued his call for the KdF-wagon, Ledwinka pitched the idea to Tatra in 1921, but they wanted to work the high end of the market. It was an obvious, common idea.

If the premise is that Ganz was a talented designer, ignored by history, because he was (J)ewish and German in the mid 1930s, OK, and that’s a shame, it should be rectified. If you indeed want to go further and say that he was responsible for several important innovations that contributed to the design of the VW and other similiar cars in the ’30, doubtless that is the case. But when you say that the he, not Porsche, designed the Beetle, and that it was stolen from him, I feel the need to comment (at length). Given your automotive background, you know what is involved in the engineering of a car and it’s manufacturing processes. Ganz did not design the beetle, period.

The Beetle’s design was ingenious in so many details, details that were not in evidence in Standard superior, although, in certain aspects, perhaps that can’t be said for the Tatra T97. I just don’t accept the idea that were it not for (h)ilter and the evil Ferdinard Porsche, deadheads would be driving standard superiors yet today, which is what the title seems to imply.

Am I motivated to defend Dr. Porsche? You bet, I happen to agree with many others that he was the Car Engineer of the Century. When you look back over his career and the number of huge innovations, he deserves the honor. The first petrol/electric hybrid at the turn of last century? If Ganz designed the beetle, I guess Porsche designed the Prius (a future article perhaps?).

Porsche was never a Nazi, but after the war, the French jailed him for over a year and half, without trial, to keep him out of the Car business. He was cleared of being a Nazi collaborator, but of course he lost his fortune. Ganz wasn’t the only guy who suffered as a result of Nazis.

You’re giving Hitler credit for making a speech advocating a “volkswagen” at the same auto show where Standard was displaying Ganz’ “Superior Volkswagen”, already in production and on sale

I’m not giving (h)itler credit for anything, as I said previously it was a common idea, Ford was using the phrase a decade and half earlier, but in English of course. If(h)ilter stole the phrase from Ganz, why didn’t he steal the car itself immediately, it was right there, wasn’t it? A particularly weak point in the entire premise.

“Porsche apparently admitted that he had been “looking over Ledwinka’s shoulder”, because Hilter said that was the kind of car he after.”

Hitler had nothing to do with that. To begin with, even Porsche’s defenders claim that he was working on small car prototypes (Zundapp Type 12, NSU Type 32) before Hitler’s 1933 speech

We are speaking of Ledwinka’s work on the Tatra T97, it was under development at the same time Porsche was working on the KdF-wagon. Hitler wanted a car like the earlier Tatra’s and Ledwinka was working on the T97. Another historical note, The German army banned their officers from driving Tatras during the war, they were fast and oversteered badly. Too bad they didn’t have enough for everybody.

It’s picky to quibble about spelling, so I haven’t said anything about your other misspellings

Thanks, only a-holes try to score points just because someone isn’t the best writer in the world. I’m am envious of your writing ability.

It’s interesting that you capitalized Nazi but neglected to capitalize Jew.

Perhaps I spoke too soon, please see note 3 of the posting gudelines (3. Disagree, but avoid ad hominem attacks.) I have several friends that are Jewish, but not a single one that is a Nazi. If you haven’t been paying attention, I’ve been the one that didn’t care for the whole race/nationality aspect of the article.

So, because Porsche was a gifted engineer he wasn’t capable of moral shortcomings? Remember, we’re talking about a man who used slave laborers in his factory. He was willing to take ideas from Ledwinka, and he was willing to design weapons for the Nazis, but he was too moral to steal from a Jew?

Porsche never owned or operated a factory, he had a design bureau. Did he work on several tank designs for the Nazi? Sure, what would you have done in his place? Refused? If, so you’re a braver man than me, or Porsche, apparently. He was never a Nazi, and was cleared of having been a collaborator.

At the end of the day,(h)ilter could have appropriated Ganz’s design for the Standard Superior anytime he want to, but he didn’t. He wanted something much better and Porsche delivered it. Given the number of Standard Superiors sold something tells me that that thing wasn’t quite where it needed to be on the old supply & demand curves.

I had never heard of Ganz or his automotive contributions, his story deserves to be told. I don’t think that is necessary to cut down Porsche in order to do so. Frankly the story could be told much more effectively by showing how his “automotive visions” influenced the work of one of history’s great designers and history’s most enduring automotive designs.

Having reread your article, perhaps my beef is more with whoever came up with that title and with Mr. Schilperoord’s approach to the Ganz story. To this day, there are those, particulary in Europe, who try to take the credit from the Wright brothers.

BTW, swingarm axles and trailing arm, torsion bar fronts are very much alive today in off road racing. The strength of the swingarm axles far outweighs the camber problem, the tires aren’t going to sit all that square in that terrian anyway. The trailing arms have the unique property of not only moving up and down, they swing back and away, which cushions the impact and helps to climb over whatever they hit. Those features, with the rear engine, are why there are dune buggies and sand rails. VWs were more than cute.

Pierre-Jules Boulanger’s early 1930s design brief, (after a pioneering market research survey done by Jacques Duclos), was to be astonishingly radical for the time, was for a low-priced, rugged “umbrella on four wheels” that would enable two peasants to drive 100 kg (220 lb) of farm goods to market at 60 km/h (37 mph), in clogs and across muddy unpaved roads if necessary. France at that time had a very large rural population, who had not yet adopted the automobile, due to its cost. The car would use no more than 3 litres of gasoline to travel 100 km (90MPG). Most famously, it would be able to drive across a ploughed field without breaking the eggs it was carrying. Boulanger later also had the roof raised to allow him to drive while wearing a hat.

uh, about Porshe seems that I wasn’t precise enough, In November 1945 after the war, Porsche was asked to continue the design of the Volkswagen in France and to move the factory equipment there as part of war reparations. Differences within the French government and objections from the French automotive industry put a halt to this project before it had even begun. On 15 December 1945, French authorities arrested Porsche, Anton Piëch, and Ferry Porsche as war criminals

uh, one could say that some manufacturers had interest to complicate his life, as so in Germany and in France

During the German occupation of France during World War II, Michelin (Citroën’s main shareholder) and Citroën managers decided to hide the TPV project from the Nazis, fearing some military application. Several TPVs were buried at secret locations, one was disguised as a pickup, and the others were destroyed, and Boulanger had the next six years to think about more improveme

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_2CV

http://www.ischool.berkeley.edu/newsandevents/events/ias03242006

http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~buckland/goldberg.html