Dear Bono: Get Your Facts Straight
Long time listener, first time caller, as they say on talk-back radio. I’ve been a big fan since I first heard the opening chords of “Pride” as a twelve-year-old living in communist Poland. I own your full discography and all your concert DVDs. Needless to say, I’m a fan of U2 on Facebook. Which brings me to the topic at hand.
I always knew but never particularly cared that our politics were different. Such is the beauty of free society and such is the prerogative of entertainers to use their fame as a soapbox for their pet causes, even if sometimes rhetoric outpaces the reality (mind you, I don’t blame you; if I had to pay taxes at the Irish rates I too would shift my financial affairs to a more lenient jurisdiction). I can appreciate your music without agreeing with all of your activism. That’s how it should be. And I appreciate the fact that despite your own strongly held views, you don’t engage in nasty personal attacks against those who hold different opinions.
But activism is one thing and factual accuracy is another.
The other day, your Facebook page posted the following status update:
“Pride” In Mexico. “I want you to send a message of love to the good and the great people of the United States of America.” …
That intrigued me, so I clicked on the link to your website to read more. It contained your full quote from the concert at the Azteca Stadium in Mexico City, spoken before the band played “Pride” (yes, that song again):
I want you to send a message of love along the border to the good and the great people of the United States of America. … I want you to send a message to people of conscience.
Ask them to answer the question. Why is it that all we hear on the news is how drugs are smuggled through Mexico to the United States?
And we don’t hear about all the automatic weapons that are being smuggled into Mexico from the United States. Nine thousand registered arms dealers on the other side of the border. Nine thousand.
Most of the murders committed here are from weapons sold in the United States of America.
We sing this for the innocents who have lost their lives in the violence here.…
The drug-fueled violence and lawlessness in Mexico are truly horrible. But that old canard that drugs don’t kill Mexicans, American guns kill Mexicans, was a bit too much for me. Particularly when you say it to tens of thousands of Mexican fans who are likely to treat everything that comes out of your mouth as gospel truth. I made that point in a comment underneath your Facebook post. As of the next day, your post was “liked” by almost 12,000 people, and more than 550 fans commented. To my surprise, I found that even amidst this huge love-fest, six strangers agreed with my sentiment. Doesn’t seem like much, but it’s not about numbers; it’s about the truth.
And unfortunately your numbers, Bono, are wrong.
I can’t exactly blame you. You have probably heard the “statistic” that 90 percent of guns used to commit crimes in Mexico come from the United States from Hillary Clinton herself. Or Senator Dianne Feinstein. Or maybe even from William Hoover, assistant director for field operations at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. After all, if anyone knows, the ATF should, right?
The problem is, as with many other factoids which gain a life of their own and enter the general circulation through media and internet, this is simply not true.
In 2007 and 2008, Mexican law enforcement authorities recovered 29,000 firearms.
Of these, 18,000 have been successfully traced by Mexican authorities. The other 11,000 have been sent to the United States — to the ATF, to be more precise — to assist in tracing their origin.
Of these 11,000, the ATF wasn’t able to trace about 5,000. Of the almost 6,000 that were traced, about 90 percent, of 5,114 firearms, were confirmed as having American origins.
That’s 5,114 guns out of 29,000 recovered — or 17.6 percent. Not 90 percent, and not anywhere close to justifying your statement that “most of the murders committed here are from weapons sold in the United States of America.”
The Fox News report, which quotes an ATF spokesman and field agents as well as the Mexican Attorney General’s Office to provide the figures above, implies that the 18,000 firearms that Mexican authorities successfully trace using their own resources do not come from the United States. I don’t know whether that is indeed the case. It’s possible to me that a certain, unknown, percentage of them are American. But unless someone can provide me precise figures, all I know for sure is that less than 20 percent of guns used by Mexican drug syndicates come from across the northern border.
Even that fact is essentially meaningless. The Mexican Army buys American equipment, including guns. Tens of thousands of Mexican soldiers desert each year, many taking their weapons with them. Even putting that aside, it is far easier for narco-traffickers to bribe an officer in charge of an armory, than it is to buy and smuggle guns from the United States. And it is even easier to buy them from countless eager dealers from China, the former Soviet Union, Africa, and Central America.
In any case, you mentioned “automatic weapons” being smuggled from America. Automatic weapons and many semi-automatic weapons are banned in the United States. If they pop up in Mexico, you can be certain they haven’t been bought at any of the “nine thousand registered arms dealers on the other side of the border.”
As I commented on Facebook, for God’s sake, let’s not blame America for every ill in the world. Reducing NAFTA, as you do, to a neat juxtaposition of American guns moving one way to kill innocent Mexicans and drugs moving from and through Mexico the other way is morally lazy. I’m not pointing this out in order to blame Mexicans; after all they’re only responding to the demand up north — market forces at work, even if you wish they worked for the whole of the Mexican economy and not just its illegal sector. Yes, guns kill people, but what ultimately fuels violence is the seemingly insatiable appetite for coke and other illicit substances in the United States. Guns are an easier target for moral outrage than millions of individuals with rolled-up dollar bills up their nostrils, many of whom happen to be your friends from the entertainment industry.
Let me close this letter by saying that I continue to respect your right to preach your causes. In many instances we actually agree. Your pro-Solidarity anthem “New Year’s Day” was one more distant light of hope, showing us, amidst the dark days and night of the communist oppression of the early 80s, that our fight is not forgotten. Your commitment to the cause of the democracy movement in Myanmar (Burma) against the bizarre military regime which is guided by astrology and seeks to acquire nuclear weapons is commendable. And your show of support during your 360 tour for Iranian students fighting the theocratic regime was touching and appropriate.
Other times we will disagree. But let’s disagree over principles, not facts. Like the guns thing. Or your implication when I saw you live during the Vertigo tour in Brisbane in 2006, that Australia’s very own Guantanamo resident David Hicks was some sort of a political prisoner. Some cheered, most booed, because they knew that Hicks was a self-confessed virulent anti-Semite who trained with two radical Islamic fighting groups, Lashkar-e-Taiba and the Taliban, and when he was captured in Afghanistan in 2001 he was not some innocent backpacker who had lost his way and accidentally stumbled in the middle of a war.
Anyway, I’d better be going now. By the way, can’t wait for the new album.
Yours in pride in the name of love,
Arthur
Sorry, but lies are like pregnacy -there are no 90% pregnancies in history -the same with the lies they tell.
As CS Lewis would tell it: Satan uses a pint of poison in a lake of clear water.
As God would tell it: You’re either with me, or against me. He doesn’t do percentages well.
To continue my thoughts: There are always two parts to a lie – a teller (deceiver) and a recipient (believer) which, in this Godless world makes believing lies easy – for as St Paul warned us – we so like to listen to folks that tickle our ears. (that pleasant poison.) How else do you explain Obama’s popularity?
Why America did vote for a kenyan marxist professor? America is fool to vote for a prince of fools.America is Alice Wonderland World.America wake up before you end up in concentrations camps. You will discover the new Lenin live at the White House.Read. 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11-12.All the traitors HANG THEM HIGH.Be not AFRAID OF THEIRS FACES.Bono you are a bozo shut your mouth you and obama makes me sick.
Bono’s next “performance” will no doubt be the inevitable “Celebrity Expert On Everything” number in front of a Senate committee. IIRC, he’s already been there on subjects like Global Warming and Why Nuclear Power Is Bad For Children And Puppies And Kittens.
Will his significant other be there holding up a baby while he demands we abolish the Second Amendment “for the children”?
The odds favor it. As has been said, “whenever a politician wishes to lie most egregiously, he holds up a child.”
Anyone who thinks this fellow isn’t a politician hasn’t been paying attention.
clear ether
eon
Bono has, to his credit, discovered that you CAN fool some of the people all of the time. Just tweak the emotional blather a litle and, voila, people will buy into whatever you want to tell them.
Obama discovered that and used platitudes and slogans to get into the WH (not to mention his skin color). Bono is handicapped by his caucasianinity (yeah, I just made that up), but he still knows how to capture the minds of those who think (sic) emotionally, not critically.
Heh – love the “caucasianinity” – asinine ninny caucasian that Bono is.
Well, this fits the European narrative of the world. It’s always the United States that causes the problems, NEVER other countries. Mexico is just a helpless victim in all of this, don’t ch’ya know? Mexico can’t be expected to control its own country, let alone its own border. They are too “helpless” for that. It must be the big, “mean” old United States that is causing all the problems. As Laura Ingraham said, these people should just “Shut up and Sing.”
Shut up and sing…exactly..
At the dawn of WW11, the most popular entertainment venue was Vaudville.
I dont recall the Plate Twirlers and Ventriloquists offereing sage advice on how to deal with Totalitarian Facism.
The Box Jugglers didnt speak out on the treatment of POW’s
Tap Dancers and Stand-up Gags didnt preach legislation.
They were ENTERTAINERS, performing for their supper.
The danced and sang, took our mind off our troubles for a time, and never had the audacity or rudness to assume we needed their opinions, guidance, or APPROVAL on political matters.
I wish todays celebrities had the same manners.
Bono is a self important, extremely rich, tax dodging, motor mouth, gobshite, if you were Irish you would this to be true
I used to listen to U2 years ago, then the “political” side jumped out. I threw out the tapes and CD’s and have never looked back. Bono is a putts that needs a slap on the head on the hour every hour until he see’s strait again.
Personally I will not listen to anything he says or sings ever again. It is the only way I can effect the twit is to not buy his songs.
Bono would only be average without “The Edge”. I have the same sentiment for performers of the world, shut up about politics and entertain me.
Bono should get his facts straight: those weapons are actually being provided by the ATF.
and we are not even getting “paid” for it
my conclusions are obama wants the cartels to be heavily armored; he needs some riff raff on our southern borders to kill our citizens
how else is he going to get authoritarian control over the country?
he needs lots of violence wherever he can get it
then the “people” will gladly give up their rights for security
Bono is handicapped by his caucasianinity (yeah, I just made that up)
Shouldn’t that be “caucasianality”?
No, in Bono’s case caucasianinity is correct. Stress on the ninny part.
It never ceases to amaze me how self important people become, once they become celebrities. What makes them think the majority of us, value their opinion.
The biggest supplier of weapons to the cartels, is the US Government, through the military sales to Mexico and Central America. Not only US selective fire, and full automatic weapons are in the hands of the cartels, but also US Vietnam era grenades, not items one buys in a US gun store on the Mexican border. Corrupt personnel in those militaries, sell the US weapons to the cartels. Perhaps Holder should investigate that angle, instead of trying to fabricate evidence, he plans to use against Second Amendment rights.
Not sure I agree with your point here.
You say that of the 6,000 that the ATF were able to trace, 90% of them came from the US. Sure, they weren’t able to trace the other 5,000 and sure, you don’t say what the results were for the 18,000 that the Mexicans were able to trace.
But it is true that of the guns that WERE traced, 90% of them came from the US.
Now, it’s possible that all of the other guns came from New Zealand, but it’s highly unlikely. I think it’s certainly reasonable to infer that most of the other guns also came from the US.
Actually, the ones they asked the U.S. to trace were the ones likely to be from the U.S. The ones they did not ask the U.S. to trace were the ones they could tell were from Mexican (and other Latin American) military sources, foreign military weapons, and Latin American-produced weapons. Just knowing the gun models and production countries allows them to sort that out. Do you think they selected the guns at random before asking ATF?
Not at all. The guns the Mexicans asked ATF to trace were *precisely* the US guns- easily identifiable because they carry NFA-compliant serial numbers, meaning they were made or sold in the US. Guns without them almost certainly did not come from the US, at least not since 1968. In other words, the guns the Mexicans didn’t refer to ATF were, almost by definition, not of US provenance.
Moreover, we are talking in many cases about military-grade stuff: full-auto AK’s and M-16s, grenade launchers, RPGs, machine guns… I assure you, you can’t buy an M1919 Browning at Wal-Mart. Not even in Texas.
Where do they come from? a) Mexico’s own corrupt army and police. 2) the many, many AKs etc guns floating around Guatelmala, Nicaragua, Honduras. 3) Direct sales from ther Venezuelan government (oh, yes, Chavez is in this one to the hilt, and those Venezuelan Army markings are unmistakable).
I live next to a golf course. Every Monday, there’s a dozen balls in my yard. One of the balls I ofund today has the logo of a law firm. It’s reasonable to infer that the other balls without logos also came from that law firm. Right, gazzer?
Hey people,
I have no dog in this fight.
I certainly take the point that it’s possible that the Mexicans only asked the US to look at guns that were identifiably from the US and that perhaps might be traced somehow.
Yes, you might argue that the Mexicans only gave the US the ones they thought were American. But that case was not convincingly made here.
I’m not convinced either way. It sounds like some of you already know where all those guns come from; however, I don’t know you and have no reason to either believe or disbelieve your assertion.
SVT is welcome to make dopey jokes about golf balls all he wants – all I can do is address the case put before me. And since we are disparaging someone else’s logic here, the least we can do is to put together an iron-clad refutation.
Gazzer – If the golf ball “joke” is “dopey,” it’s because it tracks your “logic” exactly.
It’s real simple – I’ve already said that the unknown data could go any way.
Nobody has made a cast iron case that it is any different than the data that the US looked at.
The burden of proof is on you.
Your cute example isn’t quite as rigorous as you pretend. If I see a dozen golf balls and I know that 1 of them comes from a local law firm, then out of all the other thousands of possibilities, it is at least a reasonable supposition that the others are more likely to come from there than anywhere else.
In this particular case, we didn’t look at 1 golf ball but 6,000 of them. And they nearly all came from the same place. And that represents a good 20% of the total of all the golf balls.
I don’t share Bono’s politics. I suspect he may be wrong. But this article does NOT refute him.
Gazzar, you can be certain that if the Mexican government could trace the guns they have to the US they would be screaming it. They know that the government of the US is heavily anti gun and would love that information. In this particular case you can depend on it that there is no correlation with those guns and America.
Arthur Chrenkoff’s statistics are indeed wrong.
Yes gazzer – the information is not presented here but is available in other places: The 90% number is the percentage of weapons that the Mexican gov’t suspected of US origin that had some US connection. The more complete numbers (as far as I can tell) are approx. 100K weapons siezed, 20K suspected of US origin, 18K did actually have a US connection (ie. 90%, but actually 90% of 20%, ie. 18%), but 7900 were smuggled from US arms dealers (others for example were US manufactured but sold to the Mexican military and wound up in the hands of drug cartels), and of the 7900, 2000 were provided by the government through the “gunwalking” campaign. Bono probably just had bad information, but the government officials who announced had the actual numbers of 6% smuggled and 2% smuggled by the government for a total of 8%.
I’m sure there is an exaggeration here but Bono has a point and the Mexican has a legitimate right to be ticked for which we for which we can thank Barack Obama, Eric Holder and the BATF
Is it just me or does anyone else think that U2 sucks?
I really tried to like them but sitting through a whole album was torture. Trite pretentious lyrics and styling. Bono’s screeching vocals are just irritating and maybe the most boring rhythm section ever. The Edge had some decent riffs but cant make up for a band notable only for insufferable self absorption. They inspired Coldplay for cryin’ out loud.
I propose a special bubble enclosed colony for useful idiots like Bono who really are way too good and important for the rest of us anyway. Sort of a terrarium for lefty wackos. Al Gore could be president and they could have U2 music running through the speakers 24/7.
Oh, they were OK-ish back in the mid-80′s. A little self-absorbed and pretentious, but so were the 80′s, no? But just like most other trends and fads from then, they’re dated.
Oh, and the whole “angry activist” multi-billionaire thing is just tiresome. Sure being rich doesn’t make you a less caring person, Bono, and you’re more than entitled to your opinions on things. But using your celebrity to push your views onto people who’re interested in you for other reasons is deceitful. It’s a bait and switch of the lowest order – I’d bet if one of the capitalists you regularly attack pulled the same sort of bait and switch you’d have a rant or two about it.
Retire already and stop siphoning off entertainment dollars which might be going to support new artists who’re struggling like you once did.
I thought it was just me. Your description captures very well what I have always felt about U2 but could never articulate. They are unlistenable. Almost every song seems to consist of some tortured wailing agaist the same wall of boring rhythm. For both musical and political reasons we should keep these guys on that rooftop and cut off their amps and microphones.
Rather liked them up until about the Rattle and Hum phase. After that they just seemed to slop out unimaginative pop drivel and attend awards ceremonies. Occasionally pretentious lyrics or not, there’s some fine music on the earlier albums.
The IRA has always been in the gun smuggling business. Wonder what Bono’s beef is.
I wrote about this back in March on my blog The Diplomad at http://thediplomad.blogspot.com/2011/03/lies-and-guns-to-mexico.html
This story about the guns coming form the uS is one of the great lies out there.
So here we have little Mexico. All prosperous, successful and vibrant. A spanish speaking Switzerland. Despite hardly any natural resources. Horrible freezing climate. Worse than Sweden. Consequently one of the highest per capita GDPs on planet earth. No corruption or anything. And the people migrate to the USA, especially California, and bring major advances in science and engineering.
Then along comes the eeeevvvillll USA and forces them to buy guns from us and it all goes to H E double toothpicks.
I’m a U2 fan as well and have a lot of respect for Bono, but you’d think a man who traces 90% of his wealth to the United States would be more careful about how he talks about that country.
Unfortunately, he doesn’t care about that because there are enough ninnies in the US that will pay for his music and buy into his ignorant political agends.
‘Bono’, like the late Michael Jackson, died musically speaking ~1983.
ANYTIME a musician TRIES to engage in ANY form of philanthropy comes off as an ideological, fact-less idiot.
Rather than RESEARCH and STUDY said topic, Bono, like many people in the entertainment industry, regurgitate the fiction from some federally funded/illiberal ‘think tank’ from yesteryear/yesterdecade and run with it.
Bono’s taken the proverbial ‘award’ for 25 + years and built upon said fiction since then.
I was and still though not as strongly am a RATM fan but saw their political-themed music to be full of MANY holes.
Bono and his STUPID sunglasses need to ride off in the sunset.
Just remember, Bono is only “Philanthropic” with other peoples money.
People of color in America and white folks on the liberal political Left have divided history into that of what white people have done and what has been done to everyone else by white people. People of color are always innocent in this scenario even if they make prominently racists statements like James Cone and Rev. Wright who are interviewed on Bill Moyers as freedom fighters rather than the David Dukes they are.
Bono is a moron and he has always been a moron.
Within this scenario you have themes that the U.S. government created AIDS, that the government imports drugs into black neighborhoods, that the government blew up the levies in New Orleans to enact ethnic cleansing of black folks during Katrina.
For me music is a delicate thing that must come from a good place; I couldn’t listen to David Duke no matter if he made the best music that ever was. I’ve never cared for U2 and I care much less for Bono who would be banned from the U.S. for lying about the very people who have made him rich. Check Bono’s corrupt charity for which he should be brought up on charges which gives virtually nothing of the millions of dollars it collects. The excuse is that the good publicity against poverty is its own help.
I once bought an album by Roberta Flack and Donnie Hathaway who I loved until I heard the song “Black Like Me”. It had that “Springtime For Hitler” feel about it and I brought the album back and got my money back.
I used to like the Neville Bros. until I heard some racist comments from them at Jazz Fest and was turned off by Nina Simone on a live album expressing race based love and solidarity and Alica Keys has made remarks about white people that are disgusting.
I just can’t enjoy music after it has been tainted in such a way; it’s like discovering a goat’s head in a well for drinking. Screw Bono and the continual comments against America that still come routinely from the stage from Lady Gaga and Kanye West – millionaires and traitors to the very system they say is so corrupt and oppressive. Political correctness is an ideology and Bono is at its head in the music world and has been for years.
People of color in America and white folks on the liberal political Left have divided history into that of what white people have done and what has been done to everyone else by white people.
“People of Color”? Since I’ve never seen anyone without one color or another, that phrase makes no logical sense. Unless of course, you can point out to me from what neck of the woods the transparent people hail from. Now that we’ve gotten that asinine phrase out of the way; I’d like to point out that all minorities (whom I believe you were referring to), neither look, think nor act alike. Yes, white people have done some bad things – after all they did give us World Wars 1 and 2, Marxism, Fascism, Communism, Nazism, etc.. However IIRC, some yellow people (the Japanese) had more than a little bit to do with WW2, more than a few whites also suffered for due to their invention of the above, and the Brown and Black people in South America and Africa seem to be doing a bang up job of screwing up their continents without any help from Whites. I’m an American of African ancestry and I know more than a few like people that agree with me that the world is not divided into White folks and victims of White folks. I would suggest that in the future you preface your opinions with the word “some”. If you don’t want every bad act done by some White folks attributed to all white folks, I would suggest that you not attribute some asinine opinions held by some minorities to all minorities.
As for white liberals, they’re beyond redemption and any thing you say about them is more likely then not, true.
Okay, SOME 95% of black Americans voted for President Obama – explain that away if you can. When you’re done with that, read “The Root” black cultural web site whose racial self-absorbtion would challenge a Nazi in their prime.
When you’re done with that, read these following odious racists among the black “elite” of America: Cornel West, Tavis Smiley, Nikki Giovanni, Angela Davis, Ta-Nehisi Coates, Melissa Perry-Harris, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, James Cone, Harry Belafonte, Danny Glover, Louis Farrakhan, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Roland Martin, Michael Eric Dyson and too many more to list.
On the other side you got what: Thomas Sowell and a handful of others? This chorus is monumental and not even close to some kind of 50/50 divide.
Your own portrayal of white folks giving history WW I and II as if they have cornered the market on such things by skin color is a dead giveaway. I’ve done my homework on this – do yours. We’re talking about a demonstrable rhetoric that runs consistently through the black American community without there being the slightest indication of such a thing among the mainstream European-American community unless one counts nonsense about the Tea Party and racist “code”.
It’s called Afrocentric.It drives things like Nation of Islam and (ugh can’t remember the professors name) that declared Black ppl built eveything in the U.S. and they should exterminate all white ppl and take their country back.Youtube has the videos.
Bono’s narcissism grew with his bank balance and now he is rich/self-important enough to lecture about the evils of the world.Namely the U.S.I lost respect for him long ago when i heared this good Catholic bangs whatever comes along.
Mexicans do get alot of weapons here but when a discussion of border control occured during Bush’s term the Mexican gov complained if we tighten control too much the Mexican economy would lose $ from migrants who travel back and forth to give financial support to relatives and it would inhibit the drug flow money of $225m + and could cause the Mexican financial market to collapse.Hence U.S. would be responsible for their economic collapse.
Don’t forget Belgium,Israel and Russia have huge gun markets.
Great post.
Bono isn’t interested in getting the facts straight. He just wants to use this as a convenient cudgel with which to curry favor with his audience. Fail abounds: Bono for being lame and Mexicans for engaging in the easy hatred of Americans rather than doing the difficult work of cleaning up their own house.
It probably wouldn’t have been as effective if he’d beaten up on China for manufacturing the machetes used by cartel animals to behead their rivals/kidnap victims/whomever they wish.
Oh, and doesn’t Bono come from a country famous for centuries of terrorist slayings and assassinations of politicians and religious enemies? Where exactly is his moral superiority again? Oh, right. He’s a MUSICIAN. Silly me.
I think Bono was referring to how much of the money raised for Bone’s One charity was actually spent on administrative salaries, rather than actually helping the intended beneficiaries.
Bono, not the sharpest tool in the shed
Of course, the easiest way to make the origin of all these weapons irrelevant is to end prohibition. Hell, the cartels might end up selling most of these weapons back to the Mexican government when they no longer have this obscenely profitable revenue source.
this is why most of my music collection is classical, c&w, older folk, sci-fi “filk” and other good stuff most of the younger crowd have forgotten, or never heard of. (though i will give joan baez credit for decrying the communist slaughter in southeast asia after the viet nam war.) i enjoy good music, but find little of coming from the politically correct crowd of today, so i’ll stick with frankie laine, johnny cash, joe bethancourt, leslie fish, dr. hook and the medicine show, emmy lou harris, billie holliday and the rest who made, and make, good music without preaching at me from the left’s bully pulpit. indeed, “shut up and sing”.
I am truly tired of this mildly talented mick believing he is a subject matter expert on all the world’s troubles. Maybe he should double bill with the dixie shticks. And by the way, bonehead, the tinted lenses are so 70′s.
Perhaps all those celebrities aren’t really the ones at fault. I have no doubt that other famous entertainers who used to say stupid things upon occasion. It’s just that no one used to hear about them. In the past the media took the attitude: “He/She is just a stupid actor/singer/musician. What do they know?” Know we have a media that seemingly believes that excellence in one field, is transferable to a totally unrelated field. So they the hang on every word of these people, for no other reason except that they are famous. Didn’t the media used to composed of experienced people who had been around themselves, and had no illusions about what they did and didn’t know, and could spot ignorant BS from a mile off. Now the media is composed of “journalists” who took some courses in college, have no experience of the world and assume they know everything. If you’ve just spent a heck of a lot of your time listening to their music, you just might assume these are “really” important people, with “something to say”.
I will just argue mathematics. Out of a population of 29,000 recovered guns, 6,000 were traced. Of the 6,000 traced guns, 5,114 were from the US.
5,114/6,000×100=85% of the 6,000 traced guns.
It is a legitimate assumption to consider the 6,000 traced guns as representative of the 29,000 recovered firearms as long as they were randomly pulled out of the 29,000 gun population. And therefore, when Bono made his statement, he makes the same assumption. His argument is strong. Unless you can debunk his assumption or bring in better statistics, his argument is solid.
For the 17.6% number to mean anything, you would have to trace ALL 29,000 guns, which was not done. Again, only 6,000 were traced. 23,000 guns were NOT traced, it is therefore misleading to compare apples and oranges.
PS: I do not like Bono’s politics either.
No that is not a legitimate assumption to consider. If the Mexicans sent a random sample of guns then you would be correct, but that is not what they do. They only send guns to the U.S for tracing if they are known to be produced and/or sold in the U.S. The other guns are sourced from within Mexico and the rest of South America.
Dear Wiggleworth,
Thank you for the interest in my comment and for trying to clarify the stats for me.
Unfortunately, you are rejecting my assumption with another assumption. You do not know the Mexicans send “american” guns to the ATF. If they did know, they would not need to have the ATF confirm it in the first place. Moreover, the article clearly states that “Of these 11,000, the ATF wasn’t able to trace about 5,000″.
I’d love to stand corrected but either the article is misleading or you possess knowledge that we do not.
Best.
Mackey – you said it better than me.
And just to reiterate my earlier point – we don’t know whether Wigglesworth and the author have the correct assumption or not, but there is a heavier burden on them to be correct since we all got sucked into this thread believing that it was to be a humiliating debunking, and not just merely a counter-argument to Bono.
There’s good and more complete summation of the known facts about American-sourced guns seized in Mexico at:
http://www.stratfor.com/print/183871
The study was based on 2008 seizures and concluded that only 12% originated in the American civilian market.
Hope you find it useful.
It’s a fact, not an assumption. Mexico has been sending what they believe to be “American” guns to the US for tracing since 2005 as part of a joint effort to reduce gun smuggling. It’s evidence of a possible crime committed by a U.S. citizen.
“If they did know, they would not need to have the ATF confirm it in the first place.” I guess you don’t know the benefit of tracing so I will explain it. A positive trace allows you to identify where the gun was purchased and who bought it. The ATF uses this information to obtain search warrants, conduct investigations, stings, arrests, prosecutions etc. that reduce gun smuggling which is beneficial for both countries. It is in Mexico’s best interest to send these guns to the US for tracing and that is why they are doing it.
I don’t know the actual numbers of US guns used in Mexican crimes and never said that I did, but using a 90% figure is gross negligence.
To Wingleworth,
“what they believe to be “American” guns” is obviously not good enough since “the ATF wasn’t able to trace about 5,000″ of the 11,000. Not able means that the ATF does not know where they come from.
Since the article’s main argument is the statistics, I can only say that I am not convinced.
Thank you for your time.
To Westcoast,
Scott Stewart’s article and numbers argue the exact same logic as this article.
The object in question is the number of guns traced from the US out of the total number of traced guns, that is 3,480/4,000 x 100 = 87%. This is the only representative sample we have. Replacing 4,000 by 30,000 is at best an honest mistake.
It means that every time a gun is traced, it has 87% chance of being from the US.
Sir,
It seems the cited sources are not sufficient to counter your position that there is validity in the oft-quoted 90% figure for the source of Mexican drug cartel weapons. I must assume that nothing short of official US and Mexican government reports that refute that position will be sufficient to sway you.
OK, that’s entirely your prerogative.
However, you must also consider that buying or possessing fully automatic weapons has been illegal for private citizens – with a very few exceptions for those granted a license to do so – for many decades. We must assume that the drug cartels want the most firepower they can get their hands on – fully automatic or select fire assuatlt weapons, not the one trigger pull, one shot weapons that bear a resemblence to assault weapons but are not classified as such due to their inability to fire in automatic mode. As most of the weapons confiscated are fully automatic – or at least select fire – weapons then your assertion that 87% of the confiscated weapons must have come from the US (the last sentence in your post) is impossible to defend as rational. The sheer numbers – 87% of 29,000 is over 25,200 – are beyond the capability of all those possessing a license to procure and sell or deliver to the drug cartels, even over a period of years. Any statement declaring the weapons are not predominately full automatics or select fire will require citation of a bona fide source, as you seem to need in order to agree that only a small percentage of the confiscated weapons came from the US.
To Nahkhii,
The cited source is what it is. I only have a problem with the interpretation of the statistics, which make me doubt the validity of the main point of this article, which tries to discredit Bono’s claim. I do not like Bono’s politics. However, poorly supported evidence against Bono’s claim can only strengthen his.
I am only interested in evidence.
Thank you for chiming in.
Your assumption is false. In no place are the guns classified as a random sample. They sent the guns they thought might be from the US to the US.
Bono has been a bone head for at least 2 decades. Why anyone would pay to see this bone head is the mystery.
When did President and Kings start getting their governing advice from the minstrels?
Bono, Shakira et al – have you noticed, their concerts are mostly in poorer nations? Where some unemployed, underemployed concert frequenters make around US$0.25/hour to US$1.50/hour??? Why, you ask? And their messages of Human Rights are broadcast over local TV stations while their very concerts are taking food from concert goers tables, bus fare for two weeks, food for the underclass in those countries and their children…talk about dichotomies (better yet, oxymorons). And these concerts generate millions of DOLLARS for these performers, managers, sponsors and related advertisers (in that country).
Isn’t this taking from the poor and handing it to the rich performers? Is this Human Rights??? Sounds to me like “top down” socialism.
Bono, Bill & Melinda Gates, Warren Buffet, Bobby Shriver and many more are on the wrong side. Not to mention the billions missing in the Malaria “accounting irregularities.” See Acumen Fund!
http://wwwtwosetsofbooks.blogspot.com/2011/05/bono-buffetts-bill-melinda-bloomberg.html
Shut up and sing or whatever you call that screeching sound you make.
Even Bono’s co band members hates when he talks politics. I don’t know of a single person who do not see him as kind of ridiculous in that regard. Conservatives and liberals alike.
I guess Bono hasn’t been told of the ATF’s complicity in allowing guns from the US to Mexico with them watching?
Someone should point that out to him.
All that good AIDS work down the sh!tt3r because of one uneducated comment. Time to start over Bono.
Just one more reason to increase border security IMO.
Bono should’ve listened to Daniel Patrick Moynihan: “You’re welcome to your own opinions, but not your own facts.”
I love U2′s music, and I respect Bono as someone who’s not afraid to publicly support someone or something he really believes in. And, in America, that’s a natural and Constitutional right.
However, sometimes I think “entertainers” who don’t do their homework, or due diligence on a subject, need to follow the advice of a well-known “entertainer”, when he told his enemies (and fans) to …
“know your role and shut your mouth!”
U2 gave a concert some years ago in Dublin, and Bono decided to go on a rant during a break about starving 3rd world children. To dramatize his point, he exclaimed that a child dies every three seconds. Over and over Bono snapped his fingers three times and announced, “and another child just died!”
Finally, from the fed-up audience of surly Irish came a shout, “WELL, STOP SNAPPIN’ YER FOKEN FINGERS THEN!”
In war, one must choose sides. We’re at war. It’s still a war of words, for the most part, in western societies, but it’s a war nonetheless.
If those who claim to be on our side continue to support those on the other side, it WILL be a war of bullets and bombs.
The leftist music world (which is virtually ALL of it) is very much on the other side.
Choose.
South Park was right: Bono IS cr*p:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Crap
Bono might be cr*p, but David Hicks is a huge stinking pile of monkey sh*t
Bono was playing a gig in Fife, Scotland. At one point in the concert he called for absolute quiet, and then clapped his hands together loudly in front of the mic. He paused for 8 seconds and then clapped again, then again. “Everytime I clap my hands….*clap*…another child dies in Africa”
From the side of the auditorium came a half drunk scots accent “Wee’l then, stop doing it, ye great git!”
One minor error in this article. Automatic weapons are not banned in the U.S.
Sale of new automatic weapons to private owners is banned. To buy a legal automatic weapon in the U.S., one must find an owner of an existing weapon who is willing to sell.
Because the supply is thus extremely restricted, such weapons sell for very high prices in the U.S.
It should further be noted that to buy a full-auto weapon in the U.S., one must have a Federal machine gun owner’s license, which is very difficult to get. There are about 30,000 carefully vetted holders, and in most years no holder is known to commit any crime at all. So it’s extremely unlikely that any legal machine-gun owners are buying them to smuggle into Mexico.
Outside the U.S., in the black/gray arms markets, full-auto weapons such as the AK-47 are far cheaper. Any cartelista who wants a full-auto weapon would get it through those channels, not from a U.S. dealer.
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