Cries for Vengeance Against L.A. Cops Who Shot Knife-Wielding Thug
Everyone knows there are few certainties in life. Yes, you always hear about death and taxes, but recent events here in Los Angeles have revealed other certainties which are, perhaps not coincidentally, related to the first two.
The first is this: If it is your custom to spend your afternoons getting drunk, wielding knives, and menacing passers-by on busy street corners, and if, after the police have arrived as they must when this behavior has been brought to their attention, you fail to drop your knife when ordered to do so, and if then you further tempt fate by advancing toward a police officer with the knife raised in such a way that the officer reasonably believes his life is imperiled, it is as close to a certainty as this world can produce that you will be shot and maybe even killed.
So discovered — too late — one Manuel Jamines (a.k.a. Manuel Ramirez, a.k.a. Gregorio Luis Perez, a.k.a. heaven knows what else) on the afternoon of September 5 at the corner of 6th Street and Union Avenue, just west of downtown Los Angeles.
The facts presented by the Los Angeles Police Department are these: At about 1 p.m., three officers from the LAPD’s Rampart Division were patrolling that area on bicycles when they were flagged down by people who informed them that Jamines (or whatever his name is) was brandishing a knife and threatening people, including a pregnant woman and some children.
The officers stopped and got off their bikes, and at least one of them ordered Jamines — in both English and Spanish — to drop his knife. Rather than comply with the order and surrender, Jamines raised the knife and advanced on one of the officers as if prepared to attack him. That officer fired his service pistol, striking Jamines and killing him on the spot. The entire encounter lasted about 40 seconds.
There followed four nights of protests, some of them violent, when area residents and some outsiders took to the streets and challenged the many LAPD officers who were called in from all over the city. Protesters threw all manner of projectiles at officers, including rocks, bottles, and eggs, they lit trash cans on fire, they rolled fully loaded Dumpsters weighing hundreds of pounds downhill at them, and when officers chased some of them into nearby apartment buildings, they threw microwave ovens, air conditioning units, television sets, and a variety of other items from upper-floor windows and rooftops. Some also armed themselves with slingshots and used them to shoot marbles at police officers and reporters.
The protests were fueled by what LAPD Chief Charlie Beck has described as a “deliberate campaign of disinformation about the facts concerning this shooting,” the most egregious example of which was the claim that Jamines was unarmed when he was shot. Why some people have chosen to believe this assertion, made by a woman who was on the other side of a traffic-filled, four-lane street rather than the version of events provided by those who were themselves threatened by Jamines and his knife is a mystery that will no doubt go unexplained.
But then again, perhaps it’s no mystery after all. In fact it involves yet another certainty, one involving both death and taxes, which we may sum up simply thus: When a police officer kills someone, no matter how clearly justified he may have been in doing so, there will soon come forth relatives of the deceased who will tearfully claim he would never, never hurt anyone and certainly wouldn’t have threatened a police officer. These assertions will be made in preparation for the inevitable lawsuit and demand for millions of dollars in compensation to be extracted from the taxpayers’ pockets. And, just as anyone who follows these stories here in L.A. might have expected, along came Los Angeles attorney Luis Carrillo, sometimes referred to as the Latino Johnnie Cochran, who joined the protesters on Tuesday and presumably handed out a business card or two to Jamines’s relatives.
21 feet.
If i have a Knife, and you have a gun, we are on equal terms at 21 feet. It takes me less time to cover 21 feet than for you to draw,aim and fire your weapon. Within a few yards, i have the advantage with a Knife, even with your weapon drawn.
Police have no choice but fire when a knife is involved, especially as this assailant was already physically threatening and assaulting individuals.
He already crossed the threshold for response. People need to stop seeking reasons to protest, there are enough in Washington DC.
You gotta love the mob mentality.
It doesn’t matter what the evidence is – the big bad jackbooted nazi police force killed one of them so naturally they are to blame.
I hope Beck and the LAPD stand firm on this. Don’t let the mob win.
I say let every city rot. These people are Dem voters. I’d move every police department out of every major city-LA, Detriot, Phila., Houston, Seattle, etc and let all the Dem voters take care of their own lives. Let the white progressive pols and their black/hispanic foot soldiers take over. In six months each city would be a wasteland. Finally we could put to rest the lie that the typical Dem voter from inner cities is an honest, law abiding American.
“n six months each city would be a wasteland.”
Six months? They’re all wastelands right now…and always will be. Such is the deviant forces called demrat control over our nations slums and ghettos.
Have you been to the small hick towns of Arkansas and other podunk towns throughout the South, where most folks have fewer than 14 teeth in their head, an IQ below 100 and are hell bent on VOTING Republican so they can keep their guns???
Those are the scary ones…I can handle Jose, Pedro and Maria.
One shot, one less perp. What’s the beef? Is this a environmental whacko lead pollution thing?
Well, what do you expect. The cops in L.A. have been a brutal occupying army for many years. It should come as not surprise that the people don’t believe them if they are actually in the right. Too many times they are thugs, especially in Rampart, and get cover from other cops and the city. And let’s face it, Dunphy is a cop apologist so you really can’t take what he says seriously. Bottom line, if cops policed their own the way they do us “mundanes” they might get some respect and the benefit of the doubt. As it is, they are guilty until proven innocent. Even then, because of past behavior and cover-up, they will never be innocent. They made their bed no they can lie in it.
Tim, I hope you get your wish and police protection and investigation are withdrawn from your neighborhood and place of buisness. Enjoy your victimhood.
Here’s a flash, Tim boy. I would be delighted if all of the cops pulled out of LA, and Philly for that matter. Than the dogs could fight it out in the streets. As for goood citizens such as yourself, TS.
I hope you get your wish too. Have you seen the recent headlines regarding crimes committed by Philly Cops? If those scum-bag criminal weren’t around decent people like me could take out the garbage, including them, without fear of the state. The only “victimhood” i would enjoy is running out of ammo. Kiss my ass badge lickers.
Real he man you are, Tim boy. And obviously at least a secondary school graduate. Remeber, the pointy end of the ammo faces foward, Rambo.
Nap time, Tim.
Tim, I am sorry you live in such a hell hole. I guess I can’t relate because I have never lived in a place with crooked cops or indeed a cesspool of crime. Where I live one is very safe unless he does drugs or is in a gang. I am also sorry that it has soured you on all police because I can vouch that I know many who are exemplary in every way. (I am not a cop either)
I am well aware that cops are really there to clean up afterwards and rarely are there when the crime is committed. I too have four firearms of different types and calibers not to mention 3 large dogs.
Mike…you’ve got to admit that is’s a GD shame on our society that we actually need to have these calibers, dogs and ammo available to us? What ever happened to decency, trust and live and let live? I’ve been alive for 62 years and I can’t remember a time more dangerous and perilous to our lives than now.
As a kid…I never had any fear of hitch hiking, walking or using my bike to pedal 5 miles to my friends or cousins homes. And that was in the sheethole of New Jersey!!! Try that now. Hell no…the animals, perverts criminals would eat up a kid in a second. And in New Jersey…the assholes that they are….won’t let law abiding, felony free citizens arm themselves or they make it impossible to own a pistol.
Most of the major cities in the country have given in to the animals…criminals and scum that have taken away our right to our pursuit prosperity and happiness.
I see…a second revolution and a second civil war coming. We’re tired, disgusted…and want our lives free from these animals.
Mental illness is always a sad thing to behold.
Stay in Philly bro we don’t need another turd in this s**hole.
How appropriate that it’s a Monday Morning as I read all the comments here. First of all, Tim, I do not know you but after reading some of your comments, I have to wonder how you have made it this far in life. You don’t like cops? Fine. Then who do you suggest to patrol your streets? Yourself? You already stated that you would protect your own. So what if this nut case was standing on your front porch or in your back yard, drunk and wielding a knife? What if he was advancing on you or a loved one, with the knife raised above his head?
What would you do?
Hey, Tim. Your last name wouldn’t be Einstein, would it? Nah, I didn’t think so.
Hey Tim, pull the needle out of your arm….next time it goes really South for you and your life might be in danger from some POS like this knife weilding drunk…call the AAA instead of the PD….
The citizens who lived in Rampart Div. were glad that the “dirty” cops were on the job. They knew what scum were on the streets. You’re not from LA, are you?
Mr. Dunphy, what you are describing is the Angeleno version of the intifada. Next time this happens, I would hope the LAPD would fire into the crowd. Rubber bullets at first and then the real thing.
This insanity must stop.
And suppose the officers drew their night sticks/billy clubs (not sure of the proper tech. term) and beat the knife out of the guys hand and then beat him to the ground?
Guy would be alive and the LAPD would still be blammed for “over reacting”.
EVerify everthing…..
The police are not required to play ‘even games’ nor should they be.
A policeman with a club against a perp with a knife is a fifty-fifty game. Chances are, the policeman will get cut and have to go to the hospital.
And even if he wins this time, odds are he’ll lose the next time if he keeps playing ‘even games’.
That’s why cops have to draw a gun when they see a knife. (I realize taht you are agreeing.)
Don’t be silly. just what is it with you silly civilians anyway?
Keeeerist…cops aren’t trained to “wound or wing” a perp. If the guy has a weapon…even if it’s a plastic spoon…..they;’e trained to put two into the chest and maybe if there’s time…one into the forehead, They go for body mass…not appendages.
As a civilian myself…my range instructor has taught me the same…which is the bigger target? The head from 20 yards….or the chest?
One more reason why cops, even bike cops, should all be equipped with cameras, and always have them running when on duty.
Why should they have cameras? Those cameras have a long record of “not working” at the very moment there is a question of police misconduct.
Wouldn’t have mattered. It would look just as ugly on camera as the story that was told. Police work is never pretty and always second guessed. Video or not the riots would have happened anyway. The animals in L.A. are what they are. But that’s what I love about this city.
I think the degree to which people believe the officers’ version of events is directly related to their actual contact with police. People who rarely have occasion to meet police officers tend to think of them all as Joe Fridays. People who regularly have contact with police tend to see them as more along the lines of Alonzo Harris. Police officers regularly lie to get convictions even over minor things like traffic violations. If you make a habit of lying you shouldn’t be surprised when people who know you assume you’re lying. If you want people to trust you then you have to be satisfied with “just the facts,” even if that means not getting the conviction. Speaking of which…
The sub-head indicates the man was an illegal alien, I don’t see that in the story, but if true I’m curious as to how that was determined. Or is that just police department propaganda?
Thanks,
Greg Marquez
> The sub-head indicates the man was an illegal alien, I don’t see that in the story, but if true I’m curious as to how that was determined.
The fact that his fingerprints brought up at least 3 aliases?
That wouldn’t do it in and of itself. Could just be a career criminal. But I’m not saying he wasn’t an illegal, just that Greg’s question hasn’t been answered yet.
Greg, either you live in an unusual place or you are full of it. In the vast majority of jurisdictions in this country the police have a higher ratio of good to bad than any other profession. All professions have their bad eggs, just look at politicians, priests/preachers and firemen.
Your blanket condemnation is no less prejudice than any racial slander. I bet you sneer and obstruct any officer you come in contact with, if you have come in contact with any.
I think Greg has raised valid issues. Others can hide their heads in the sand if they wish, but ignoring those questions won’t make them go away.
The other thing that to me is obvious from the “reaction” of this “mob” is it was not “spontaneous”. Persons possibly unknown had to stir this pot to bring it to so fast a boil, in my opinion. Something else is afoot.
Greg, I think the degree to which people believe the illegals’ version of events is directly related to their actual contact with illegals.
Mr. Senor Marquez.
I have very frequent contact with police officers – LAPD, LACS, and CHP. At least 3 times a week I’m surrounded by these fine men at church. I know them to be highly religious men of the highest morals and ethics. So, your argument of those “who regularly have contact” with the police is fallacious at best.
Maybe those to which you refer should consider modifying their behaviors in order to reduce the frequency of contact – especially if they don’t like the results of that contact. I’ve heard said that the jails are full of “innocent” men. Not one ever did anything to deserve being there. It was always someone else’s fault. ALWAYS!
As for me, I look forward to seeing each and every one of them – Sunday mornings, Sunday evenings, and Wednesday nights. Sometimes more.
AlmostaCowboy
Whose ancestors came to America in the 1600′s.
Fine. You see them in church. Some of the biggest sinners have the loudest voices in the choir. I’m not impressed.
Do I hate cops? No. I just distrust them to the point I talk with them as little as possible. I travel a great deal, to small towns. It used to be I could ask directions from a cop, and get directions. Now, it is “what business do you have here?” “That’s a school. Do you have grandchildren there?” “Papieren bitte!”
Of course, I am just two generations off the boat. Compared to someone who is of the American aristocracy like you, my opinion no doubt means nothing.
According to statistics, cops stand a finite chance of getting killed on duty in most big cities. They know this because they attend funerals of their fellow officers once in a while. So naturally they become aware of the best way to defend themselves when a drunken nut, for example, comes at them with a knife.
Unless you have found yourself facing this kind of very real danger, don’t criticize a policeman who, after all, is just trying to do his job – which is protecting city residents.
Greg:
I for as a business leader in my area, and as a native of the Los Angles area fo 33 years I have had enormous amounts of contact with Law Enforcement and in my opinion the vast majoiy are top class indiiduals doing a ery dangerous job fo us the citizen. I’ll take the word of the officed first every time. Where I live now we are allowed to carry ou own potection and if this peson had theatened me he’d be just as dead.
Sorry about the spelling errors keyboard errors…..LOL
I guess I wasn’t particularly clear about what I meant by contact with police officers. I meant people who have to deal with police officers in their official capacity.
My contact with police officers is as an attorney, and in that context I’ve seen officers lie repeatedly and not even in serious criminal proceedings. It is extremely common, I would say nearly universal, for police officers to lie to suspects in order to get them to incriminate themselves. Police officers frequently lie to the court to try and support wrongfully obtained evidence. Police officers even lie to juries to try and support the verdicts they think are correct. Any police officer who denies that all three of these things happen on a very regular basis is either lying or deluded.
One has only to look as far as the Pajamas Medias home page to find a similar story of a West Point Grad who was shot to death by police coming out of a Las Vegas Costco. The testimony of witnesses contradicts the testimony of the police. Who are you going to believe an uninterested bystander or the guys who shot a man to death? But what is really upsetting is that the rest of the police officers who witnessed the event support the lie, if only by not speaking up. That’s what’s truly disturbing. Are there no men working in the Las Vegas PD.
We had a similar incident happen in my home town, Imperial California, 200 miles south of Los Angeles, a couple months ago. The police beat a 22 year old hispanic man to death. They claimed he was fighting them and was on drugs. A witness to the events, who came to me because she was never contacted by investigating officers, says she believed he was handcuffed at the time because he was laying face up on the ground and never raised his hands to protect his head as he was repeatedly beaten by two officers until he was dead. Now my real beef isn’t even with the two police officers who killed the young man, they at least have an understandable reason for lying. My beef is with other police officers, sheriffs, who came to the scene and are not coming forward with the truth.
Here’s what I teach my kids, and I’m a conservative Republican, evangelical Christian, the police are not your friends, do not trust them.
Greg Marquez
Trying hard to control my laughter…I thought I smelled a litigator. And a defense attorney at that. Please stop referring to yourself as a conservative and a Republican because neither would teach their children not to trust cops. I am also sure that if I made such a blanket statement about an entire group of people (such as say Hispanics) with nothing to back it up but my biased opinion as a defense attorney I would be met with the same venom you seem to have for police officers. Yet you can make that comment calling the majority of police officers liars and perjurers with no guilt I’m sure. Pathetic. Well I will make one such statement now but it is backed up from a lot of experience. I can say with a fair amount of certainty that Jamines or whatever his real name is was illegal as a large percentage of the residents in the area of 6th and Union are.
You claim to be an Evangelical Christian? Yet, you lay a blanket judgment on ALL law enforcement and claim NONE of them are to be trusted? This is what you’re teaching your children? How sad and pathetic. You need to head back to church and read the bible a little more often, as you have learned nothing from it. Oh, and if your children are kidnapped, raped or murdered,(seem to be a lot of sex offenders in your area) please, do us all a favor and don’t call 911. Don’t want those nasty, lying cops to come and try to find the person responsible.
I think one solution would be about 10,000 deportations, including Mr Marquez who, if not illegal, must be one of their agitators. There is an old rule that seems to be broken regularly in LA. You don’t s**t where you eat.
The comment about police cameras is instructive. In some cases cops will turn their car cameras off. There are such instances, and sometimes they are related to actions that police don’t want to be seen in court. It is also true that police will lie in more than a few instances. Did this guy need to be put down/stopped? Absolutely. If it were a kid in Beverly Hills advancing on a cop, would he have been fatally shot? Probably not.
Neither Dunphy nor the LA Times piece he links to offer a clear idea of the ethnics at play here. Political correction is withholding critical information and preventing clear reporting and honest journalism. Jamines/Ramirez/Perez is clearly Hispanic. The outsiders with the literature and the bullhorns sound African American. But it would be helpful to ordinary readers if some of these details were clearly spelled out.
I seem to recall a recent Dunphy post suggesting that LA was pretty comfortably buttoned down ethno-politically with all the taxpayer funded payouts to racialist reverends and community organizers equitably and generously apportioned. So why this sudden disturbance of the peace?
Can’t these protesters be bought off? Michael Bloomberg would have dealt with this problem handily even if he had to reach into his own pocket. Big guy, Mikey. Knows what it takes to keep the lid on. Put the biggest loudmouth on the taxpayer’s payroll or give some loudmouth already on the payroll a bonus to bust his head. Look at Chicago. It has the Their Reverends Farrakhan and Wright and it’s just as peaceful as a Church.
TiminPhilly – If the LAPD is so ‘army like’ – Why are there more than 1 million illegal aliens of Hispanic, Latino lineage for more than 50 years? You’d think this ‘Army’ would perform its duty of ‘ethnic cleansing’.
Besides, you’ve got enough to worry about in your armpit of a city than make asinine remarks for other cities woes.
Go back to your liberal coma.
Paul, Seriously, your an ass-hat. Just because I live in Philly doesn’t make me a liberal. I am libertarian. Big difference. The reason there are so many illegals in L.A. is because, by law, the cops are prevented from enforcing immigration laws. How about you educate yourself before making asinine comments. Go back to your conservative comma and have a wet-dream about Sarah Palin.
Tim: You are. Or, you’re.
I don’t think there’s anything more irritating than the narrowing gap between libertarian and liberal fantasies of oppression, centered on cops.
To answer your question, didnt Daryl Gates sign Special Order 40 in 1979? He probably figured out he needed an army of illegals to deal with the army of black (crip/blood) criminals prevalent from 1965 to 1992?
This was also a period in time when hard-working “mojados” were preferable to native born gangy and radical “cholos”. Others (e.g. Reagan) probably sought to nullify the Mexican-American Democratic vote by amnetizing the newer arrived mojados, just as Carter thought that Marielitos would be grateful to Democrats for their entry as refugees and eventually cancel out the Republican “59er” Cuban vote in Florida,
People think because its a gun and a knife, that it’s as if the knife wielder were defenseless.
Nothing could be further from the truth. At close range, and with the speed that the deranged or drugged often move, an assailant can potentially kill or wound before the cop — waiting for the last minute — can use his gun. And the gun has to be aimed…which gives the knife assailant that extra millisecond to get in and disable the cop.
People should be made aware of just how hard it is for a cop to use a gun against a violent assailant.
Agreed, Look up the Tueller(?) Drill. It is astonishing the speed with which the average person can cover 21 feet. The average distance for most gunfights. The cop was probably justified in the shooting. But should not be surprised that the people don’t trust him.
Tim:
Do you have a reason we should trust YOU?
Thought not…
yeah, the people are so honest. Scream if the cops don’t get there, scream if they do. OMG if the guy had a person’s head in his hands and a machine gun, the people there would side against the cops. It never fails.
what these people want is no go areas, probably incited by muslims of the peace loving religion, so they can have a safe haven after they rob, pillage and murder.
riot all you want, you miscreants, you won’t have a no go area. you will, instead,have a very go all the time area.
and, if you threaten a cop with assault or don’t obey a law officer, consider yourself dead.
But that’s racist! Hispanics are entitled to have a knife and wave it around! How discriminatory those honky cracker cops!
Those cops there were actually probably from the “Class of ’86″, if you catch my drift. Its more like a Mexican vs. Guatemalan beef.
Can you determine that someone is Guatemalan within 40 seconds while that person is wielding a knife? Kinda ridiculous statement you made huh?
That’s an interesting point. Nowhere have I seen mentioned the ethnicity or gender of the officers involved. Could be “honkies” but might not be prudent to assume too much.
I’m surprised at some of the comments from “Bill Gannon”. Wondering if someone isn’t using this name as these comments are not in line with the usual ones on Jack’s article. If not it’s sad that he’s been swallowed up as well.
The cops were Latinos, not “honkys.”
First let me answer the comment made to Jack Dunphy, in a previous comment section,that he’s a coward for not revealing his true identity. Foolishness. I was in a position on the Dept where my name had to be revealed because I represented officers. I can tell you from first hand experience the treatment can be brutal when you are known and your positions are not in line with or opposed to the upper levels of the Dept. Mr. Dunphy would have no time to write because he would always be in trouble or under investigation for something if he wrote freely as he does now. On the this shooting incident. I worked Rampart in the late 1970′s and it wasn’t a friendly place then either. We are always distrusted because the people come from places where they can’t trust their police. But it’s amazing that once here in America they would still go against the police when the differences is stark. Let’s face it, these protests are manufactured, especially by ‘outsiders’ who will not be happy until the police take no action against anyone. blotto had it right-can you imagine if the police, in order to ‘create peace’ just left the folks to take care of themselves? Then it would just be people brutality. After 1991 when the rules were changed because of Rodney King and the ACLU knocked the LAPD to it’s knees the changes have come slowly but surely to change the way we operate. But they will not be happy until we are just toy soldiers just around for decorations. You can imagine why officers may want to get assignments out of patrol or promote to get away from what will result in the kind of mess this bike officer is in now. Isn’t it odd that it was the police who were flagged down by a resident when Mr. drunk, knifeman was threatening everyone. She didn’t go to other neighbors or residents. Where were these protestors to help out MR. ‘many aliases’ so they could control him without the police getting involved. Oh no! No one to be seen then. Where was all the concern for taking care of their neighborhood and a troubled drunk by using all of those numbers that show up to protest but can’t be found to intercede on his behalf? Come on folks, they couldn’t have cared less about him. Now we see all kinds of concern and wringing of hands or should I say hands with palms out. Because there is no doubt the City will pay off the family because ‘they will be afraid to go to court and possibly lose this case’. This story has been repeated many times and will not be the last. Do you think the ‘protestors’ really care about an investigation. No! They would rather slam the Chief and the officers and not hear the facts because it may prove them wrong. They will never know what it’s like to be in the situation the officers were in and I hope that what never happens in the future is that officers make sure they don’t get into those situations again by avoiding them. Thanks for your reporting and insights, Jack Dunphy. I look forward , as I’m sure you do, to your retirement and the publicaton of your first book which I look forward to reading.
I smell a Bruce Springsteen/Harry Belafonte duet here!
All police in the USA should get four weeks off a year……all at the same time.
(No response from the Nat Guard or Army neither!)
great idea. Let the cities rot
Hmmm… I notice that the subhead, I mentioned above, has been changed to exclude the words illegal alien and that without comment… strange. Was it just LAPD propaganda? Was it an unfounded assumption on the part of the subhead writer? Was it just meant to draw rapid anti-immigrant crowds to this site? Will we ever know?
Greg Marquez
Whose ancestors have been living in what is now the United States since 1775.
I have no idea if this news report in the LA Times by Hector Tobar is correct, but according to statements from his friends the gentleman in question was from Guatemala and in the country unlawfully.
Tobar says in part:
Does that “settle” the issue?
Gentleman?
See above comment. I can guarantee with some certainty he was illegal.
A majority of blacks and hispanics come down on the side of the criminal, not the cop. Make of that what you will, it is a fact.
I did, I will, and I agree with myself 100%
The simple fact of the matter is: not all cultures are created equal, and we most certainly should net be “importing” inferior cultures to contaiminate our own, let alone, granting them amnesty. These people simply do not contribute ANYTHING to ur society – period. Rather, they are purely detrimental and destructive in every concievable way
Ever wonder why Liberals are always out protesting Police Brutality, but you never seeing them march or protest against “criminal brutality”. They scream and protest against the death penalty for murderers, but get all upset when Consevatives protest against killing unborn babies. There truly is a disconnect in the Liberal mind.
Trying to drop heavy objects from upper story windows onto people below is attempted murder and should be treated as such. I would shoot the bastards on sight as a self defense move. Announce with bull horns and the media that anyone observed attempting to kill will be eliminated on the spot. Of course that might incite more riots and require more defensive actions. Wonder how many it would take before the really dumb ones figured it out or were put out of our collective misery. Might just thin out the gene pool a bit.
I believe the specific gene that you are speaking of is the “gimme something free” gene. I’m not sure and I cannot swear to it, but….
Gotta love the media… at least one station covering the protests identified the partipants as “activists”.
I can understand why the cops shot.
I can also understand why the neighborhood is pissed.
In 40 years of practicing criminal law in a high-crime urban area, I have never heard of a case where the police used force from minimal to deadly, and admitted they used excessive force. Police universally justify their use of force whatever the circumstances. It may have been justified in this case, and the deceased may very well have threatened them with a deadly weapon, but don’t accept their word for it without an unbiased investigation
There is always an investigation in a police shooting. As far as an unbiased investigation goes, those are almost impossible in today’s America. Look at the above posts. At least a third would be virulently anti police whatever the evidence. My only request is that half of the investigation includes people who have had to make life and death decisions in just a couple seconds or less.
I rather think from what trying to filter though the slop that is news reporting today that this could well have been nothing more than suicide by cop. If anyone here is not familiar with that term it merely means that a person decides to die but hasn’t the courage to do it themselves and either kills or risks killing officers or civilians until their wish is fulfilled. Despicable people who do this.
If the story hinges on the testimony of Ramparts police, they have a problem. Historically, the Ramparts division has a rep, one that’s big enough that I’ve heard of it ‘way at the other end of the country, one far too big to run away from.
In this case, visual evidence would be good. If they have video showing the perp armed and advancing, then no problem; the police were justified in ventilating him pronto, no matter what the mob and the professional race hustlers say. But if they DON’T have video, then they may have a problem. The obvious question would be, why not? This is the 21st century, and video cameras are basic police gear.
Kudos to the officers, Chief Beck, and even the Mayor. Job well done.
Hey, if you are drunk…threatening people that are passing by and responding Officers with a knife, gun or other deadly weapon and refuse commands to drop it…you had better be prepared to face the consquences of your actions with deadly force. Had he slashed someones neck while the Police were “accessing” the situation, you would have the same people then up in arms saying the Police are not protecting the innocent civilians “who pay their salary”…so it’s again the game of tails you win, heads the PD loses. He got what he deserved based on HIS “CHOOSEN” ACTIONS.
From a retired LAPD officer’s point of view, let me just say that this whole incident has been, as ussual in order to protect, not the officers, but City liability, poorly handled.
In the first place, this is an on going investigation, so the Mayor has no busines advancing the outcome of the investigation. One thing is to back the LAPD, another is to say, that a transparent investigation will reveal that these officer will come out as HEROES, which may the case. But let the investigation take its course to its final determination.
Mr. Dumphy, far from helping the LAPD with his attacks ( tre or false) about the AKAs of the deceased, or “whatever his name is”, are insensitive, inflamatory and not proper of a well known public figure.
Let us wait for the outcome of the investigation….
On the list of things that concern me, being sensitive to people who attack police officers is very near the bottom.
–Jack Dunphy
Well said. And I’m glad you hung up the leather gear Jimenez. Good riddens.
I’m very happy how officers handle the situation and especially that none of them were hurt. This folks who were protesting are very ignorant, they should go back to their country and see how this situation in their side of the world would of been handle, it would of been swept away. They should be lucky and shut their mouth! Good Job LAPD!!
I do not see any discussion here yet on whether or not the officers could have used a tazer type of device. It is absolutely justified that the officers quickly needed to use a form of force on the suspect. Since the suspect was armed with a knife, he could have been jolted into submission with non-lethal electricity from a safe enough distance to also keep the officer and any nearby innocents away from harm. Officers should already be trained to be able to quickly and effectively make and execute these types of decisions.
http://euro-police.noblogs.org/gallery/3874/X26taser.jpg (TASERS are small and effective)
There’s no excuse ofcrs involved did not carry or use their TASERS. None.
Two civilians with no training or experience making judgments. Would love to have seen either of you in that situation.
most bike patrols don’t carry tazers
tom swift
what world did you fall off from, video camera’s are not basic Police gear, and why would they have a problem if they didn’t have in on video?? Hello??
I am an LAPD officer. I happen to be a fairly conservative LAPD officer. But, let me tell you…in Los Angeles we have hands down the most diverse police force on the planet, which includes, I’m certain, the highest percentage of liberal police officers anywhere. Whether or not the correct on-scene decisions were made regarding Jamines has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with tactics. There is not a single officer that I know of, regardless of creed, ideology, or persuasion, who thinks that this situation was handled improperly by the officers at scene.
I’ve read a lot of opinions by “tactics experts” or police know-it-alls who think they have this all figured out, and have their own opinion on what should have been done, but they are simply that…opinions, and just like @$$holes, everybody’s got one.
The fact of the matter is, unless you’ve stood your ground against an armed aggressor, with your firearm pointed at their chest, and not known whether or not you were about to take someone’s life…you should keep your mouth shut! There is no Department in the world that gets as much tactics training, both basic and continuing, than the LAPD. And this is reflected by the diversity of less-lethal weapons we employ compared to other depts, as well as our on-target hit ratio for “shots fired” which is 20% higher than the next closest department. When we have to be deadly, we are extremely deadly, and make sure our shots land where they’re supposed to and not injure innocent bystanders. Had these not been bicycle officers, most certainly a bean-bag shotgun would have been used to take down Jamines, but just because we have alternatives available to us, does not mean they are always available. And the fact that they are not available does not mean we no longer have a duty to take action in defense of life. Jamines set the timeframe for the conflict, and with a scant 40 seconds to respond, there are are many types of specialized units who may have been flagged down that also would have had no choice but to shoot him.
Did any of the ofcrs have TASERS? Was a TASER deployed?
Don’t threaten an Officer with a knife and you won’t get shot. Enough said. Be safe Warriors.
No need to add anything about the article with such a qualified comment by Blueman. From a fellow LAPD officer – carry on!
I do not live in California but I have been keeping up with this story. I am so pleased to see Chief Beck come to the defense of these police officers. I agree that the former Chief Bratton would NEVER have defended these police officers before the trial–even if all the proof pointed to their innocence.
Blueman hit the nail on the head! Well said. These ridiculous comments of what should have been done in this incident when they themselves have never been subjected to this type of situation is pure BS! I too am an LAPD officer and tactics were perfectly employed the way they should have been in this situation. The average citizen has no real idea of what officer’s go through on a daily basis when encountering individuals who break the law and threaten others. Those who are aggressively and deliberately refusing to comply to an officer’s commands in an attempt to control an already out of control situation. Not only did this individual not comply to officer’s commands both in English and in Spanish, he challenged police officer’s and with the knife in hand, began to rapidly close the distance between himself and the officer’s. They had no choice but to protect themselves and eachother and, “Stop the Threat”, of serious bodily injury or death that they were subjected to. When you have to wear a bullet proof vest to work everyday then you can talk! When you hear gunshots, do you run away in the opposite direction? We don’t…if we did, who would would protect you? We do this job because we beleive that it is worth doing. We don’t do it for money or recognition. You couldn’t pay us enough money to risk our lives everyday. My support to my brothers in Rampart and all over the City of Los Angeles!
Were the ofcrs carrying their TASERS?
Why wasn’t the TASER deployed?
If they had time to issue orders, they had time to deploy the TASER.
You don’t bring a non-lethal weapon to a lethal weapon encounter. Tasers do not always work. The firearms were the appropriate answer to a knife-wielding man.
http://www.taser.com/products/law/Pages/TASERX26.aspx (35 feet)
Ofcrs could’ve deployed the TASER from a safe distance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34ePPJMxDPA (TASER vs. knife attack)
The TASER is the perfect response to a charging knife attack, as seen on that video.
In a knife wielding suspect scenario, the TASER should take the lead, with the pistol (another ofcr) standing by.
LAPD stopped shooting at cars, they had extensive “re-training” for this.
Maybe the LAPD can institute the TASER first procedure for knife wielding suspect.
http://lapdblog.typepad.com/lapd_blog/2010/06/armed-man-advances-on-lapd-officer-officer-involved-shooting-occurs.html
There’s no excuse for ofcrs to NOT carry their TASER.
Taser,
Although it seems a perfect response to use a taser, the video shown on Youtube is in a controlled environment. Imagine what a real situation is like when a drunk with a knife is charging at you. You only get one shot with the taser. Both darts must penetrate the skin to be effective. There has been many cases where the darts missed, did not penetrate or fell out of the suspect. I don’t think I want to take that chance. If you get a chance, type in “images of knife cuts” and see what a knife can do.
TASER,
You are obviously not a police officer, and obviously know nothing about the LAPD. Please realize that on this forum, you are speaking with professionals who carry, use and train with these devices daily. So, if you are going to attempt to make a point, don’t just copy and paste the website for TASER products on the screen and think you’re done.
1. 35 feet is the maximum, not effective range of this weapon. The darts fire in a spreading pattern, diverging away from one another, making the EFFECTIVE range of this device 20 feet. After that, the darts are so far apart from one another that the likelihood of both of them hitting the target is minimal, rendering them useless.
2. TASER’s don’t work on all assailants. They are powerful, but some people can power through them, particularly those individuals on drugs or central nervous systems depressants, such as alcohol.
3. You only get one shot, and if you miss there is no time to reload your CART (dart cartridge) or go to your firearm.
4. Every officer gets a firearm, but TASER’s are not individually issued equipment. When we first started getting the new TASER’s they were issued individually, but at $900 a pop they became too expensive. Additionally, Bike officers do not carry TASER’s typically in order to keep equipment weight down.
More “Tactical Theory” from someone who believes the retail ad hype for a weapons platform, and has never been charged by someone with a knife, or else he would know…there is no “perfect response” aside from simply getting the job done and going home at end of watch.
For those who would like to take that chance, and give the benefit of doubt to a violent stranger…this is what a 3 inch blade can do to a man:
http://www.hockscqc.com/knife/index.htm
1. 20 feet EFFECTIVE. How far away was the drunk with a knife OR that guy with the fireplace poker? I’m sure a lot less.
2. TASERs don’t work on drunks? Are you sure about that? I’m not talking about the tasers used on Rodney King here. Pls. check your facts again.
3. One shot, one kill (or TASER), that’s why your partner has his pistol out, in case the TASER fails. TASER first, pistol second. LAPD always works in pair.
4. That’s the problem here. Everyone should have a TASER, bike officers or not, it weights about a pound and it’s tiny, there’s no excuse.
Sir, I know about knives, I know they cut. My issue is that most “suspects” that get shot for wielding a knife or a fireplace poker suffer from mental illness.
Real criminals use the knife differently, it’s an ambush weapon you’ll never see coming. If someone’s shanking you prison style, then I’m with you, anything goes.
But in most cases, especially in this case, there was time to “talk”. If there’s time to talk, there’s time to talk tactics, there’s time to employ the TASER. The officers weren’t ambushed.
@ Ken, I’m assuming you’re LAPD too like Blueman, which means you’ve felt the TASER without the darts, was it still effective? Yes, it was. The darts just need to catch on clothing not skin. What was the suspect wearing? A shirt?
You can thank the Mayor, phoney Tony for all this non-sense. When you install and support sanctury city policy, this is what you get, the lawlessness and culture of Mexico. Look what you have in Los Angeles, nearly 50% illegals, grafitti and trash everywhere, and these people are hell-bent on making L.A. and California into the cess-pool that Mexico is.
Regarding TASER’s & LAPD:
Yes, TASER’s don’t always work on drunks, even the X26. And yes, I’m sure about that. I don’t need to check my facts on this, since I have seen it in person, not on youtube.
LAPD does not always work in pairs. Supervisors always ride alone, and numerous types of units deploy “L” cars with one man only.
Let’s also be clear about one thing. Jamines was not shot for simply weilding a knife or fireplace poker, he was shot because he charged an officer who was already pointing a gun at him. He was an immediate threat to life, and his mental capacity was irrelevant. As I said earlier, Jamines set the tempo. Had he not dropped the knife and surrendered, but also not charged the officers, he would have been detained at gun point until additional resources arrived…ie: beanbag or TASER.
Jamines was within the range of a TASER, there just weren’t any on hand, and since bike units don’t respond to radio calls like patrol cars, the few TASER’s we have are reserved for them first since they are more likely to respond to a call where they’ll need one. There are many specialized units within the LAPD who may have just as easily been flagged down by those citizens and would not have had a TASER available to them. Even if we did have one for every officer, there are some positions where it just isn’t practical to carry one. A plainclothes officer in an unmarked car could have just as easily driven past and observed him wielding a knife; or a detective, or someone with an admin position, or a SWAT officer, or a canine officer, or…or a hundred more.
Even with the above being said, there’s only so much room for equipment on our duty belts, and since “most” of our officers are fairly fit, a 32ish inch waist isn’t much room for carrying equipment, and some simply cannot fit it on their duty belt. It would be nice to have an infinite assortment of gadgets at my disposal on my belt, as some officers with the room to accessorize do when they first start out in police work. But, you soon realize that getting in and out of a patrol car 50-60 times during a 12-14 hour shift, and running after suspects with all of that additional weight plus a ballistic vest, just isn’t realistic, and slowly the equipment gets minimized. Also, just because it fits on your belt, doesn’t mean you can easily get to it. It does me no good to have a TASER in the middle of my back. The priorities for accessibilty have to be for deadly force (firearm and ammo) and communication (radio). Again, all this sounds good in theory, but doesn’t always work in practice. Knowing what works and what doesn’t comes from getting up every morning and wearing all of this equipment while conducting your duties. If you haven’t done that, you just can’t comment credibly. If you have, then you know of what I speak.
@ Blueman,
You might want to contact TASER Int’l to tell them that neuromuscular incapacitation does not work with drunks, because there is no data to support this claim. I would assume that this would be a pretty important piece of information for them. So you have seen the M26 or X26 deployed (with darts shooting out to make contact, we are NOT talking w/out the cartridge mode here, just to make sure) and did not work on drunks? You might also want to contact your Tactics section.
How many officers were at scene for the recent Rampart shooting? Three? I understand there are Sergeants and Detectives, but those who work in the streets should have TASERs, period–NO EXCUSE.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2181/1648210785_a272a4dfed_b.jpg (Duty Belt)
@ Blueman,
There’s room. The X26 is so tiny and light, that you can fit it in the tightest of duty belts. OR if you really want to go lighter, there’s a couple of tools there you can carry in your sap pocket, making more room for the X26. The point is there is room.
If worst comes to worst, and you don’t want to adjust your duty belt, you can go with a drop down holster for the X26:
http://bljsselfdefense.com/images/d_533.jpg
There is NO EXCUSE.
Its been said but I’ll say it again because TASER dork doesn’t listen very well and is Rain Manning this issue with his repetitive posts. Drunks do not always respond to the taser no matter what model or what distance it is deployed at. They also tend to keep coming forward even as they are being tased. Partner officer or not I’m not bringing a taser to a knife fight, I’m bringing a gun. It’s easy to make these statements as a civilian who has never been in any situation close to the circumstances that these officers were in. LAPD officers are all taught that the taser is not the non lethal weapon to use when confronted by a knife wielding suspect. A bean bag shotgun is the proper non-lethal response to this situation but as bike officers they did not have one available. The situation unfolded before one could be requested and the officers had to make a quick decision to protect themselves and the citizens in the immediate area. Nuff said.
Okay gentlemen, TASERs are a good tool. If it was possible, I would equip all my officers with a TASER (M26 or X26) and make it a SHALL to carry, just as it is for officers to carry firearms. In fact, it was likely former Chief Bratton’s goal years ago to have all of the LAPD to carry TASERs to avert needless loss of life and situations just like this. However, when the fiscal crisis gripped the entire country LA fell short in equipping everyone of its officers with this capable less than lethal tool. That is not to write that a TASER would have likely been effective here, because police officers are NOT REQUIRED to use less than lethal tools on lethal threats (men with knives) that are attacking.
Why are we arguing about a tool that was not available to the officers and not mandatory to carry anyway? To, “if only” this situation more and more mucks up the situation and detracts from the clarity and accountability of the situation. If only Mr. Jamines would have dropped the knife. If only Mr. Jamines would never have bought the knife. If only the liquor store owner would not have that alcohol to Mr. Jamines. If only…it could go on for eternity.
Mr. Dunphy and the officers at scene had it right:
1. The suspect was drunk
2. The suspect was armed with a weapon that was capable of inflicting serious bodily injury or death
3. The suspect created a dangerous public hazard and/or threat and were summoned to aid
4. The suspect failed, when confronted by uniformed police officers, to comply with their lawful orders.
5. Instead of surrendering when confronted, the suspect made a life ending decision and attempted to attack LAPD officers.
The suspect and his illegal actions prompted and ensured his own death, not the action or inaction of the Department, the lack of TASERs deployed, or the “if only’s” that were presented above.
An officer fired his weapon to stop a legitimate and certain deadly threat and he was well within his rights to do so granted to him by the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of California.
In my humble view, the rest of this debate is an attempt to place culpability away from where it squarely landed; with Mr. Jamines.
@ Irwin Copper,
Thank you for a professional and enlightening post, Sir.
We both agree on the efficacy of the X26 TASER. It is my hope too that every Police Officer will one day carry the X26. I hope it becomes MANDATORY.
With that said, the following is intended for discussion rather than disrespectful disagreement.
I understand that in the end, I am just Monday Morning Quarterbacking here, I’m just being a critic. But also remember, much of the progress in policing came because of constructive criticisms, sometimes from the inside and other times from the outside. Like the 13 yr old boy who was shot to death backing his car towards LAPD officers. The boy was wrong and the officers justified and within policy. Because of community outcry, today LAPD officers think very hard before firing at a moving vehicle, this is how robust their retraining was. Same with the LAPD couple chasing a felony suspect which resulted in an infant losing his arm. Community outcry, resulted in a tighter retooling of policy and procedure. Same with LAPD’s procedures for handling large protests.
I agree with you, Mr. Jamines (whatever his name truly is) was wrong and the officers acted justifiably within policy. The question is,
Was There A Better Way to Handle This Type of Situation?
From all accounts, Mr. Jamines was stumbling drunk and the officers at scene were “talking” to him. I know the investigation is still ongoing, so much of this is from the News, but from all accounts this looked like the perfect TASER scenario, better than that youtube clip I posted above. This can be fixed through TRAINING.
You’ve already spoken of the lack of TASERs in the Dept. I’m curious how many TASERs (fully functional) were left at the station that day (there should be records for this right?). Because, as Blueman, has indicated there’s a whole gamut of excuses to NOT carry the TASER. I’ve seen 120 lbs. female officers carrying the X26 TASER on their duty belt for Pete’s sake. This can be fixed by 1). ensuring TASERs are available and 2). making it MANDATORY to carry.
I’m not “what if”-ing the same scenario, I’m hoping the next similar shooting will end better. Because it seems the current dogma now is “Suspect has a knife–that’s a Green Light, I’m going to shoot him” (“He brought a knife to a gunfight” line of thinking, as stated above).
I’ve read countless articles, where a family calls 911 because their love one is suffering from mental illness and has become violent. Police show up, the suspect becomes more violent, produces a weapon, police shoot him dead. I know it’s within policy, but you guys have to appreciate the irony in these situations, where you are called to help, but instead you kill him. The family would’ve been better off, had you not come. Maybe 911 dispatchers, in these types of calls, should give a caveat: “Ma’am, officers are responding, but be advised your love one has a 50/50 chance of being killed. Do you still want them to respond?”.
A little levity is called for here.The obvious answer to this dilema is to enact a law banning knives.I personally don’t need one since my chewing capacities are limited.We need some more laws anyway and this would solve a lot of problems.CHILDREN couldn’t hurt themselves,meat consumption would be reduced and dishwashers couldn’t sue if injured.Plastic is the solution.
Since guns are outlawed and possibly knives,the police could stay home and have a beer with their buds.Barring that I’ll opt for an armed policeman everytime.
TASER said: “I’m curious how many TASERs (fully functional) were left at the station that day (there should be records for this right?).”
I would like to know the answer to this question, please. Our police are suppose to Serve and to Protect, right? If they are leaving their tasers behind, could it be because they really want to go out and do harm? Why else would they not bring their tasers? Can somebody get the records to see if there were tasers left that day, please? (They’ll probably burn it now, LOL)
Maria Delgado
Homegirl Cafe/Barista
“They’ll probably burn it now, LOL” Nice comment. Somebody please get this barista the list so she can go back to makin lattes. Gimme a frickin break.
We are not taught to use the taser on a suspect with a knife for a reason. Whether he is drunk or not that is a situation that could escalate to the use of deadly force. Especially when he has already threatened others with it. I’m not going to get that close to a suspect with a knife just so I can use a taser and hope it works. Bottom line he should have complied. No re-training necessary TASER. These officers responded to this situation as they were trained to do. The shooting at a moving vehicle and pursuit issues were different and needed clarification. As the Chief and Mayor have already said, these officers did what they were trained to do in accordance with policy, procedure and current training. The taser is not an option that is recommended by our use of force and tactics experts no matter how many youtube videos of sterile training situations you post links too. Post some real world examples of police officers using the taser in similar situations if you feel the need to belabor the point anymore.
I believe your comments are very fair. We agree on some key points.
LAPD’s use of force policy is based on the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution and within the last year, those uses of force are reviewed internally and by the independent Police Commission with adherence to the case of Graham v. Conner. That case cites the objective reasonableness doctrine and that is how uses of force are to be adjudicated (in policy, out of policy). For better or for worse, to avoid situations like this or to see how it could have been avoided are not necessarily the consideration when a use of force review board adjudicates the particular force.
To this simple working officer, I see that as the job of Staff officers (Commanders and above). It is their job to ensure policy (adapts) aptly protects the community and the officers attempting to implement it in the dynamic and dangerous field situations that LAPD officers will continue to encounter. Hopefully our Staff officers, some of whom have been out of the field for a decade or more, will solicit great amounts of input from field practitioners – the true subject matter experts. Doubtful that will occur, but it doesn’t hurt to have ideals.
Thank you for your response, Sir.
When it comes to knife assailants, I want the policy to stay the same. But what I hope will happen from this incident is that Training, Tactics, Techniques and Procedures are augmented to add the TASER in the officers’ arsenal of response, so officers don’t automatically rattle, “Suspect had a knife, so I shot him dead” as their rationale behind their action.
A knife at the hands of tatted buffed out parolee who wants to kill officers, is different from a knife at the hands of a tiny old lady suffering from dementia. Those are the two ends of the spectrum. There shouldn’t be just one Tactic, Technique and Procedure available. Again, this is where the TASER X26 should be added.
@ Joe Deeone,
The attack in Rampart was NOT like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_o_5v92_zE&t=22s (Law Man Attacked)
You’re comparing a fast, dynamic attack to a slow, drunk assailant.
Again from all accounts, Mr. Jamines was slow and stumbling, severely drunk, probably like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjByYxXq5fY (Very Drunk Person). There was time, because witnesses and officers stated they tried to “talk” the Deceased out of the situation.
Again I understand that it was justified. I’m merely pointing out that because (from all accounts) the suspect was described as slow and stumbling, and that because apparently there was time to “talk” (which means time to establish who’ll use the TASER and who’ll draw the gun),
this same situation would have been a lot better than the “sterile” youtube clips where physically fit officers are actually running full speed at the responding officers, with complete control of their knife, only to be stopped by the TASER.
SO, my point is HAD the TASER been available and deployed in this scenario, it would have worked out perfectly. The suspect would’ve been an easy target for the TASER, this was the IDEAL scenario for a TASER vs. knife assailant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlSYmkWveeU (Real World TASER vs. knife)
If you think you’re so smart, why don’t you become an LAPD officer, TASER? Loser.
We don’t save copies of Kit Room records, Maria.
If there were Tasers not deployed to personnel that day, who cares?
Like everyone has already pointed out, it is not MANDATORY for us to field Tasers, it’s personal preference.
Most of the coppers that check out Tasers are females or male officers who don’t want to get dirty with the locals.
For me, all I need is a badge and a gun.
Old school.
@ Ofcr. Smiley,
I seriously doubt that LAPD does not “save copies of Kit Room records”, Sir. Especially when it is digitalized as shown here:
http://www.usc.edu/uscnews/stories/11682.html
“Once we get everything bar-coded, and get the people trained properly to use the inventory system, I bet we’ll see a reduction in the amount of time it takes to check out equipment and get officers into the field faster,” said Sergeant O’Brien. “I bet we won’t lose as much equipment either.”
Over time, the bar code system could be upgraded to radio frequency identification tags, a faster, more efficient equipment tracking system to install and maintain, albeit more expensive.
The Engineering Writing Program students recommended that the division consider an up-and-coming system, called Wheels of Zeus, a two-way, point-to-point wireless network that allows real-time tracking and notification of missing equipment from a computer with a broadband Internet service. That system is not yet on the market.
“If this system is used at the LAPD, it would allow them to track and locate their equipment at all times,” the students reported in their proposal to the Southwest Division. “They could also locate officers in the field, using a GPS receiver that would be installed at the precinct. If an officer was involved in a shootout and got separated from his radio, the GPS receiver could locate him.”
taser, good lookin’ out here. you know youre striking a cord w/ them when they get all defensive and start calling you names. keep at it, brother.
Is this “kit room” list available to the public? I’d like to write about this subject on my blog.
Yes, just go to the front desk of Rampart station and request a copy of said public document. If they don’t have it available, then they will direct you to the Headquarters building. I hope that helps. ~VW
I’ve worked Rampart before and like everyone here has said, this is a neighborhood of animals and cockroaches, there are no people that live here. So don’t you guys waste your time worrying about this place or Mr. Jamines. The rest of Southern California can enjoy their lives, because LAPD is taking care of business. We live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You, rasheed? You, TASER? I have more responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Mr. Jamines, and you curse the LAPD. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Mr. Jamines’s death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. I know deep down in places you dont talk about at West Hollywood parties, you don’t want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand post. Either way, I don’t give a damn what you think you are entitled to!
c’mon, man. get off your high horse, you cut and paste from “a few, good men” and you expect us to take you guys seriously? c’mon. you guys are just a bunch of high paid high school grads, your childish comments prove this. say something original, man, don’t just cut and paste. i bet you’ve never even served in the military. and you expect the community to respect you guys, get real.
F*ck the Community!!!
If you Taser them, they will go through the criminal justice system, we will pay for their time in prison and if they get out of prison, we’ll pay for their welfare because they won’t be able to get jobs, they’ll resort to criminal acts again, we pay for them in prison again and the cycle continues with their kids. LAPD policy is to put them out of their miseries, saves them time and saves us money. It’s a very cost effective policy, culling by opportunity. Instead of trying to talk to the community, LAPD should air drop cheap knives and liquor, and hope they all follow Mr. Jamines’ example. God speed.
This all reminds me of this, current events:
http://charliesimpsonswar.wordpress.com/2010/09/19/face-of-evi/
It seems that the wider picture shows plenty of bad decisions, especially roughly or rudely inferfacing with the public. Here’s my questions:
1). Do you think the fact that most police officers are only high school graduates is part of the problem, relying more on emotion rather than rational thought?
2). Do you think the fact that most police officers live in the far suburbs, allows them no way to empathize with the public?
3). Records show that most police officers being disciplined or have committed wrongs, are mostly blacks or Hispanics (minorities). I know percentage wise there are more minorities in the LAPD now. Could affirmative action have been implemented incorrectly?
4). We also know that the LAPD is a great liability problem for the City, in large part because police officers lack the rational foresight, empathy and quality to perform their job. With that said, do you think we should lower their pay across the board, so the City can use these saved funds to cover for the liability our police force creates continuously?
You are one hundred percent right as to your questions,or should we name them for what they actually are: hypothesis that in lack of any proof, academically or based on job experience, really do not amount to anything worth considering.
However, you have inadvertedly left the real issue wide open for discussion, or at least, empty enough to allow the insertion of this comment from a retired policeman: The real issue here is money; it was money and City liability in the early 70′s and it will continue to be money.
Many bad shootings have been ruled as ” within policy shootings” simply to protect the City from civil liability….millions of dollars…and then again many careers of good police officers or policemen have been destroyed by ruling a justified shooting as an ” out of policy or bad shooting”, because it was in the best interest of the City and the Chief as far as I can remember, has always been in the service, not of the people— to protect and to serve—but in the hands of who may provide the best possible budget for the department—The mayor…. It is always about money….
I am retired policeman, Eduardo R Jimenez, serial number 17649, not part of affirmative action…Not that there is any thing wrong with that, right Luis…
The average cop with 5 yrs on, nothing but a HS degree, is making close to six figures a year. There are teachers who have Master’s degree, who work after hours w/out O/T and they average at 60K a year. It’s like the Bell scandal. There is something seriously wrong with our system.
Its amazing what TASER deduces from news articles that give very few hard facts. I don’t know how “obvious” anything is from reading articles with supposed witness accounts. Its easy to armchair quarterback though when nothing is at risk for you. I guess thats why you think 40 seconds was plenty of time. Just because they gave him commands does not mean there was plenty of time to do anything but react to the situation or that they tried to talk to him.
I also love the fact that some of these posters point to the fact that a high school diploma is not enough of an educational background to do this job. None of you have that right to judge if you have not done this job or if you in fact hold only a high school diploma. I think Code X was using humor in his post with that quote which was lost on those that mocked it but it is true. Come wear the uniform and deal with this crap and then you can judge. I’m not saying you can’t question things or engage in discussion. Making judgments when all the facts are not out or judging a cop based solely on his educational level though is ridiculous. Especially when a large percentage of cops in the LAPD these days do in fact have more than a high school education or real world experience such as the military or even in some cases both. A college education does not magically endow someone with extraordinary powers of reasoning and judgment. Just like being a certain ethnicity or growing up in a certain environment doesn’t necessarily make one more or less qualified to police certain areas. Nothing is that easy especially in police work.
We get it TASER…you are totally into technology or maybe you are a rep for the taser company but either way you think it is the best tool ever. We get it ok. Bottom line is this was not an old woman suffering from dementia and you do not know that he was a slow moving stumbling drunk. In fact unless you were there you don’t know any of the facts so you can’t say things like it would have worked perfectly. And you have never used the TASER in any capacity so you can only comment based on opinion, videos and statistics provided by the company that sells this product and wants it to be bought by all departments.
Also get all the kit room documents you want guys. The answer will be the same that the department has given already. These officers didn’t have tasers and they weren’t required to. I’m sure there were some deployed as is the general policy that less than lethal tools are deployed on every shift but that doesn’t mean every officer has to have one on them at all times.
Bottom line once again. If you are armed with a knife and get so drunk in public to the degree that you cannot think rationally enough to make the decision NOT to threaten other people AND the police with that knife then you run the risk of getting killed by the police.
@ Deeone,
I agree with using firearms, had the threat been IMMEDIATE. IMMEDIATE is the keyword here. It takes only 5 seconds to deploy the TASER, Deeone, you don’t need 40 seconds. Fire the darts, send some wattage towards the suspect, incapacitate, take away the knife, then cuff.
As a matter of fact that’s how it happened in Phoenix, here watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlSYmkWveeU
The Rampart shooting could’ve played out that way, but didn’t because they left their TASERs back at the station. Every two man partner officers should have 1 TASER. What’s that 10 TASERs per watch? How many TASERs does Rampart have?
The tax payers are paying for these equipment for you guys to use, use them! Use the TASER X26.
“If you are armed with a knife and get so drunk in public to the degree that you cannot think rationally enough to make the decision NOT to threaten other people AND the police with that knife then you run the risk of getting killed by the police.”
Or Tasered by the police.
“I think Code X was using humor in his post with that quote which was lost on those that mocked it but it is true.”
Code X:
“I’ve worked Rampart before and like everyone here has said, this is a neighborhood of animals and cockroaches, there are no people that live here.”
Is Code X’s description also true then. Because if cops are in this mind set, that the community they are entrusted to protect are just “animals and cockroaches” they are containing from the more affluent population, then this might explain why the decision to shoot came quickly–why? because they are no longer humans. Sad, and to think that you people are supposed to be the good guys.
pls. get off your high horse, my brother. you are not one of them, you just work for them. there’s a difference, homie. check yo’self, befo’ you wreck yo’self. tasers are humane, if you don’t have to kill, if you don’t have to, then taser. life is always worth saving, no matter who. we’re all saints and sinners here, we’re all people.
Let me ask you this officer Joseph, why isn’t Rampart station releasing the kit room record that shows how many tasers were in fact deployed by officers that day? Is this confidential information, because I thought this was public document.
The point here is make the TASER X26 Mandatory. If LAPD does not have enough then every pair officers should have one, at least.
Why not offer Police Officers incentives to purchase their own TASER X26?
Most Police Officers spend money for backup revolvers and extra pistols at home, even assault rifles, why not encourage them to purchase the TASER X26, much like they kit up with the best flashlights, knives, and other equipment, they can take it out of their $1,000 “uniform” allowance per year.
It can be done, the TASER X26 should be the go to non-lethal every Police officer carries.
– Pepper spray, only produces an unnecessary adrenaline rush for suspects no officer wishes, plus it stays in the air affecting everyone else.
– Baton, not every police officer knows how to use this weapon effectively, except for the back and forth swinging they teach in the academy.
So the TASER X26 is the best. All you have to do is make sure it is properly and fully charged.
I’d rather spend my uniform allowance on beer and some good steak.
OK now I’m convinced that TASER works in some capacity selling these things. And I say once again, making statements such as “I agree with using firearms, had the threat been IMMEDIATE” without personally knowing the facts or even having one day of experience as a police officer is ridiculous. Watch all the videos and read all the training material you want. Police work is not that simple. If you haven’t been there in these type of situations then you just can’t make the same judgments as those who have and you shouldn’t make statements such as these. You can make these things mandatory and cops will still pull their guns out on a guy who is threatening them or others with a knife unless the situation dictates otherwise.
Rasheed I am one of them and having seen plenty of your posts I also know where your beliefs lie so nuff said.
As far as the “animals” comment we do indeed protect and serve those that live among the animals in Los Angeles. Only an animal would do some of the things I’ve seen such as throwing air conditioning units out of windows trying to hurt police officers responding to criminal activity. It has nothing to do with protecting the “more affluent” but instead protecting the innocent who due to many factors beyond their control are forced to live amongst these individuals. There are many decent law abiding individuals that live in crime ridden areas that appreciate and support the LAPD and thats why guys work divisions such as Rampart day in and day out. They don’t do it for the opportunity to kill someone. Even as they are second-guessed, criticized and unfairly judged they continue to do their jobs.
@ Deone,
I didn’t know policing is like Free Masonry–arkane. I guess the news description of Mr. Jamines as drunk, stumbling and unresponsive was wrong? That the officers had time to issue Mr. Jamines orders?
As for TASERs, we know each LAPD station have 30 to 40 TASERs available. We know every watch deploys around 20 officers. So, we know available TASERs were left at the station that day, just sitting around.
We know that had a TASER been with the officers, Mr. Jamines might still be alive today.
TASERs are not bulky, they are light and tiny.
Those are the facts. Since you are not arguing against these facts. And since you seem to just be taking offense at the fact that I’m “second guessing” police officers. Then let me just ask you just one question.
Should LAPD make carrying the TASER mandatory? (Yes or No)
**Because it seems to me that the Rampart 3, shot a guy who didn’t have to be shot, who of course will write that “the suspect lunged” (we know how these police reports go, especially when there’s a use of deadly force), AND they did not have TASERs, why? Because they are bike patrol, and it’s too bulky for them. If we make it MANDATORY then people will start asking, Why didn’t you TASER him before you allowed him “to lunge” at you?**
“There are many decent law abiding individuals that live in crime ridden areas that appreciate and support the LAPD and thats why guys work divisions such as Rampart day in and day out.”
but how do you tell the difference, my brother?
this is counter-insurgency, like iraq and afghanistan, vietnam before, how do you tell the difference? answer is you can’t, that’s why more police officers who work south central and rampart are capital a-holes.
they continue to do their jobs, because it’s lucrative, average officers earn close to six figures a year w/out a college degree–can’t do anything else, but more importantly, why leave if the pay is so good?
you’re romanticizing your brothers in arms, homie, when you know what reality looks like.
“unless the situation dictates otherwise.”
In the Rampart shooting, the situation did dictate otherwise, they just didn’t have the proper non-lethal tools available, which were the bean bag shotgun (too big to carry on bikes) and the taser gun (small enough to carry on bikes and on officers). Hint: they had taser guns available back in their station. Two words: Dereliction of Duty, not on the police officers, but the department for not making taser guns mandatory to carry.
Can you get dinged for tactics, for failing to check out a Taser?
I’ve read this entire article and all the comments here. Some of my biased observations are as follows…..
TASER: No matter how many times some experienced officer states that a Taser might not work in a situation, you always respond with published TASER Inc. data. You are either the slimiest salesman that Taser Inc. has ever hired or you’re trying your damnedest to disarm you local police department. Just to humor you, I have seen several situations, and been in another, where the Taser is ineffective on inebriated suspects. To “Monday Morning Quaterback” this shooting, as you stated, is misguided no matter what your true intentions are. You’re not hitting a nerve, you’re just another uninformed know it all.
Rasheed: Brother please. I thought that entire militant black deal went dead like Fred Hampton and the Black Panthers on West Adams St. I love how you throw the “X” into your name now. Do a little more research into Malcom X and you’ll find that he changed his tune and went pacifist well before he was killed. You’re getting played by your local poverty pimp and you don’t even know it. Then again you might and it’s all about gettin’ the dolla’s, right?
To those requesting the equipment logs: File a FOIA with the City and they will produce the document. Unless there is some sort of legislation that demands officer’s use or carry a Taser or other less than deadly force tool, a law suit would go nowhere. You’re pissing against the wind on that one. Good luck standing up and fighting for justice, for an apparent waste of semen.
To my fellow officers on the West Coast: The key phrase used here in my city is De-Policing. Give them all a report and have them go swear out a warrant. Baby-mama-drama, he-said/she-said b.s., robberies, burglaries, etc. ad infinitum, ad nauseum, give em all paper and the address to the court house. Be less pro-active than what you are used to. Give the citizens and the City the police department they’ve always wanted. Be Armed Secretaries and Tourist Guides. Let the politicians explain to the masses why crime has skyrocketed. You may not agree with doing something like this, but it is having a big effect here. Law suits against coppers and pay outs by the city have tumbled. I reason it as being fiscally responsible during these economic hard times.
To the fine citizens: Good luck. You’re going to need it.
What City is that Beverly Hills? LOL.
why do you assume i’m black? you’ve never seen me. most people don’t like cops because cops tend to lump people together and treat them all as “them”. then you’re surprise when people throw bottles at you. you guys are over paid and under educated, that’s a fact, if you don’t like what i’m saying then… (you know how it goes).
@ Westcide,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K16n_skZDbI (video of a 2,000 lbs. bull Tasered by police officers)
For those that say TASERs don’t work on drunks and druggies, please watch that video.
If TASERs are properly charged and properly checked before taking it to the field, it will rock a 2,000 lbs. bull’s world. There’s no actual evidence of druggies and drunks, base on physiology, that would allow them to resist the TASER. So logic says the only answer would be
1.) insufficient charge of the TASER
or
2.) a malfunctioning TASER which can be easily checked by “dry firing” it.
The TASER M26 and X26 have been tested throughout various police academies and military training courses internationally. Check your own police academy records to see if any of the thousands of recruits or trainees have been able to resist the TASER. Your tactics unit would definitely make note of this, if any one was able to resist the TASER. I can assure you that the number is zero.
“To those requesting the equipment logs: File a FOIA with the City and they will produce the document.”
They are saying it’s not available at this time. Reason: the Investigation. What a bunch of BS.
Good post Westcidedog but it fell on deaf, liberal and uninformed ears. TASER, Rasheedx and the rest of the pack are going to continue to repeat their mantras over and over and I’ve grown tired of this discussion. Keep typing though keyboard activists and don’t try to change anything. And don’t worry about becoming a police officer to try and help your community either, more money for us I guess.
One more point though…rasheedx you said “most people don’t like cops because cops tend to lump people together and treat them all as “them”. then you’re surprise when people throw bottles at you. you guys are over paid and under educated, that’s a fact,” Kinda like what you did in that statement huh? Lumped all cops together and treated them all as “them”. Then you go on to say “then you’re surprise when people throw bottles at you.” You’ve shown your true colors there “homie”. Nice spelling in your posts too. Now who is undereducated? I guess that’s our fault too huh?
hey, brother, you’re mistaking your profession as race, religion, creed, nationality and sexual preference. me “lumping” cops as overpaid and undereducated, is like me saying l.a. teachers (as a whole) suck and taxi drivers in l.a. are friendly.
when i make generalizations, the worst that can happen is people like you get butt hurt, when you act on your stereotypes, people get hurt and/or die. that’s the difference. the scary thing is you guys possess power, homie. that is the problem.
That’s right, rasheed! That’s right, we have the power. And I’m gonna take pleasure in gutting you, boy! I’ll see you in the mean streets.
All,
No it is NOT per policy mandatory to carry the Taser.
As a patrol Watch Commander I make it a shall for partner officers going out into the great unknown the Taser.
No Taser, no vest, dirty firearm, you are working the Desk, where you will have time to ruminate on the virtues of these tools of our trade.
I ensure the Kit Room officer readies and checks all equipment going out, especially the Taser.
We train simunitions scenarios as much as possible, and ensure all tools are in play during the various runned scenarios. WE take our plays seriously and Yes, we have deployed the Taser in certain knife scenarios.