Code Blue! Health Care Reform May Be Dying
Meanwhile, a bipartisan group of moderate senators announced they would not be rushed. Sen. Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.), Sen. Ben Nelson (D-Neb.), Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-La.), Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.), Sen. Susan Collins (R-Maine) and Sen. Olympia Snowe (R-Maine) and others declared:
While we are committing to providing relief for American families as quickly as possible, we believe taking additional time to achieve a bipartisan result is critical for legislation that affects 17 percent of our economy and every individual in the U.S.
So much for the president’s exhortation to get this done ASAP.
Nevertheless, the problem remains: what sort of health care plan can get through both the House and Senate which meets the president’s own demand to both expand coverage and contain costs? The Congressional Budget Office chief, in devastating testimony earlier in the week, asserted that the House version wouldn’t save money, and indeed would make our budget woes worse.
Moreover, even the Washington Post editors could spot the problematic funding mechanism:
The measure would cost just over $1 trillion between 2010 and 2019; the income tax surcharge on those earning more than $350,000 a year would bring in $544 billion over 10 years, while cuts to Medicare would take care of the rest. But the program appears to be paid for during the 10-year window only because the Medicaid expansion and insurance subsidies don’t begin to kick in until 2013; the tax surcharge would apply beginning in 2011. Meanwhile, the trajectory of rising costs is alarming: The net price tag of expanded coverage would be $202 billion in 2019, up 8 percent over the previous year. The tax surcharge, however, would bring in just $86 billion in 2019, up 5 percent from 2018. So to keep the program adequately financed, Medicare savings would need to be $116 billion — and growing by some 10 percent annually, an awfully optimistic stretch.
Translation: even by soaking the rich and socking it to small businesses, the House Democrats’ plan doesn’t begin to pay the cost of the plan.
Both sides in the health care debate understand time is of the essence. The longer the debate goes on, the more the public hears about the mind-numbing costs and rationing entailed in a government take-over of health care and the higher unemployment goes (raising qualms about any new taxes), the less chance there is to pass a gargantuan health care overhaul. Moreover, as the president’s approval ratings continue to decline, his ability to offer “cover” to nervous lawmakers diminishes on a daily basis.
All of this must seem eerily familiar to our secretary of state, who saw her own health care plan meet its demise fifteen years ago. Then the White House tried to ram its own plan through. Now the Congress is running the show. But the result may be the same. It may be that despite liberals’ optimism about an opportunity to remake America in the wake of an economic crisis, not much has changed since Bill Clinton was president. Americans still don’t want the government running health care. And they really don’t want their taxes raised.
The success of Obama’s presidency, not to mention the future of the nation’s health care system, will hinge on whether in the next two weeks Obama can convince them otherwise.
Barack Obama has done so much screwing up in the last six months that if he were running a soup company, for instance, he would have been fired point blank.
He’s well on his way to bankrupting America, in affect killing the American dream for generations to come.
He’s made shambles of the free enterprise system. Spent money like a drunken politician, money we as a country don’t have to spend.
Lied about allowing earmarks.
Put people in power at the treasury department who’ve made a science of not paying their taxes.
Set the stage to kill the unborn at a rate unparalleled in the history of human kind.
Began his plan to gut the military so he can say we’re all equal and in this together. Stopped advancements on the missile shield defense that our allies need more than we do because rogue countries are now bragging they’re going to blow our friends off the face of the face.
With all these mess ups or, worse, intentional
actions; to ignore Obama’s disingenuous oath of office to preserve, protect and preserve the constitution of the United States, Barack Obama must now be investigated by the FBI to see if he’s a clear and present danger to this great country. Maybe he attended so many closed dinners with domestic terrorists that he finally came around to their way of thinking.
Sotomayor wants to destroy this country; shread the constituion, see things in the constitution that aren’t there to spread her brand of, (let’s call it like it is) socialism. And Barack goes and nominates her. What’s he thinking?
Most of us want to see this country move forward and prosper. Barack Obama talked about change. Now we know what he meant. to Bankrupt this country, neuter the military. Make us vulnerable to every mentally deranged head of state who states in clear language a hate for us, and a hope that we suffer nuclear anniliation.
Barack Obama isn’t a leader. Except if you define a leader as someone who takes you down the road of defeat, humiliation, and destruction. This is not a political game people. This is about our national survival.
I suspect that Barack Obama is already a marginalized president. He will unlikely be able to ever again get enough purple and red state legislators to do his bidding. Michael Jackson’s death on the exact same day as the House of Representative’s vote on the cap and trade bill only gave him a little more time. There is a growing realization that Obama is an intellectual lightweight and perhaps also a bit off his rocker. The present administration is premised on racism. It is tacitly devoted to sticking it good and hard to white people. Either center-right individuals deal with this unavoidable issue today—or the disgusting David Duke and his allies will take advantage of the situation tomorrow.
To David Thomson (right above me): DITTO. You are right smack on target. The 10th Amendment says “The powers are…reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.” What Jefferson and his buddies from Virginia meant by “…or to the people.” was revolution and the 2nd Amendment.
People still don’t get it about Obama.
Once in the position of President Obama believes that he has the power to do whatever he wants without being questioned; without being challenged; without being stopped by anyone.
Obama has repeatedly said that his healthcare will be passed before the end of the year. That is an unequivocal statement of fact, not a threat. This is the way Obama has administrated everything since taking office. Ready, set (the trap), snap his fingers and break their necks.
Pick one; housing, lending, Wall Street, amnesty, cap & trade, welfare, taxes, wealth redistribution, healthcare, his own culpability. Which one did Obama give a rats ass about what the American people or Congress thinks or wants?
Obama is an imperious authoritartian with his own agenda and a very short fuse when it comes to what America deserves; more importantly what it’s going to get with him in control.
A lot more than the success of his healthcare plans, or his presidency are at stake right now.
President “It’s all about me” Obama is going to have an increasingly tougher time getting his agenda rammed (or is that Rahmed?) through. As he said it best at the All Star game, “No,man,we’re out of money.” And his pitch on health care is about as good as his pitch was that evening, in the dirt before it reached home plate.
Various health care “experiments” have been tried on the state level and I wonder whether there are any that could work on a larger scale. How much does it cost us to provide health care services to non-residents? And is that care reimbursed at a lower level or not at all? Could we link a path to citizenship with paying something toward health care costs? (I don’t know the answers nor am I trying to start a political “food fight”)
Back to the Precedent…he thought speechifying is all he was going to have to do in this, his first job. Hooray for some in the Congress who are pushing for better ideas from the teleprompter.
Lets see … we have some termites in the walls, wood rot in the bathroom floor, a leaky water heater, the walls need more insulation, and the exterior needs a paint job and a new roof. So what to do?
Let’s tear this sucker down. I want it rebuilt in one week, for the original price because I said so. Oh, by the way, your property taxes will be revalued to current rates, and if you want to sell or rent, you still get to make these changes or you will be fined by us an amount still to be determined. Remember, we know where you live.
Please Dear God, do not let this abomination live to see the light of day! Amen.
Yes, Check Mate, I agree with you. Before the election I said Obama’s motto should be: “Do as I say. Don’t question. Unity by force.” It’s becoming increasingly clear that that is what he thinks. El Presidente Obama.
His support in Congress was based upon the myth of his huge popularity. The Republicans were afraid of it and the Democrats hoped to ride his coat tails in the 2010 elections. All of a sudden those coat tails do not look so long. Now the Republicans need to stand up and hand him a defeat on his ultra-liberal Supreme Court nominee. A loss there would send him reeling and restore respect for the Republican Party. Defeating health care would then doom his Presidency.
Pelosi is killing him by passing ultra liberal bills in the House and Obama is unable/unwilling to work with her to draft more conservative legislation. As a result her Dems do not want to vote for things and have the Senate later soften them.
They got hung out to dry on both Cap and Trade and Healthcare and they got an ear full when they went home. Keep those cards, letters, emails and phone calls to congress coming. It is effective.
How long will it take for the useful idiots who elected our first affirmative action president realize that the emperor has no clothes? I hope that it is before our nation is permanently damaged.
Thomas and Thompson….what you said.
“His support in Congress was based upon the myth of his huge popularity.”
Barack Obama’s popularity has always been an inch deep and a mile wide. He is the president only because of white guilt. The majority of Obama’s supporters decided to give him the benefit of the doubt. His relationships with such despicable characters like the racist Rev. Jeremiah Wright and Bill Ayers were downplayed. The fact that Obama graduated from Harvard Law was grossly overvalued. In other words, these voters did not cast their ballot for the real man.
Finally, a small, just a peep, ray of sunshine!
B. Hussein Obeyme
Deborah:
Government service in general, elected in particular is a magnet for personalities like Obama has. They will use any and every means available to get what they want.
The President of the United States wields unimaginable authority and power. Obama’s cabinet and our current Congress is replete with like minded people, all of whom will quickly combine forces to destroy and dispose of any individual, group of people or organization that challenges or opposes them. In many instances there doesn’t even need to be a reason; just a suspicion or what-if is more than enough.
There is a silver bullet out there with America’s name on it. Voters, especially liberal Democrats should be more cautious and diligent when it comes to selecting candidates from radical backgrounds like Islam and Black Theology.
President Obama’s vaunted popularity was always a myth created by the same plastic MSM who holds him in high regard because Obama is as plastic & manufactured as the MSM; however, President Obama’s staunch support of the so-called “stimulus” which costs more than any other bill ever crafted is haunting the Obama Administration. Obama believes he can say the magic words & everything will fall in line. This once was true given Obama has no real record. He does now with the “stimulus” as unemployment climbs to 10% or more & no real jobs to show for the Democrats wish list made real by their own personal greed.
Since President Obama possesses no real leadership skills, he possesses no coattails; his campaigning for other troubled Democrats will either have a neutral or negative effect on their careers. Governor Corzine is the beneficiary of President Obama’s help as the overtaxed state of New Jersey is in full revolt against the Leftists in the state.
President Obama, to my knowledge, has not written any bills himself since he became POTUS; he has been a patsy or passive orator simply trying to sell the unsellable to the public who have had enough of President Obama’s imperial majesty who would be a dictator.
I don’t see President Obama being effective at all this Wednesday with yet another news conference & speech given the ABC health infomercial bombed; he has wasted his political capital for trinkets. People do not want selfish, egotistical beaurocrats to control their health & well being. Furthermore, the CBO’s staggering numbers of both House & Senate bills contradict Obama’s claims of saving money with Socialized medicine. President Obama is left in a lurch given the Congressional Democrats who are up for re-election next year (2010) are now realizing they have to answer to their constituents–not President Obama. President Obama is willing to throw the Congressional Democrats under the bus to grab more power for himself. The friction will not cease after the 2010 elections regardless if the Democrats retain control. The Blue Dogs also have to answer their constituents for Porkulus.
Porkulus will follow President Obama throughout his years like a ghost who will not go away.
Obama reminds me of the rock opera, Tommy. Kid with a messed up childhood develops a specific talent. People are mesmerized by him because of this talent and think he could provide answers missing in their lives. When he delivers his remedy, the people revolt.
We’re not gonna take it
Never did and never will
We’re not gonna take it
Gonna break it, gonna shake it,
let’s forget it better still
“OBAMACARE – If it ain’t good enough for my Congressman, it ain’t good enough for me!”
3. David Thomson writes:
“I suspect that Barack Obama is already a marginalized president..”
If anyone doubts David Thompson’s thesis, I’d recommend checking out this column in the WaPo, fer crissakes. It commits the unpardonable sin (to the MSM) of conflating The Boy King with the Failed Peanut Farmer and invokes the ultimate image (except for Carter’s unsuccessful joist with the killer rabbit) of the latter’s feckless reign over us: the cardigan.
Also, it is interesting to note the vehemence with which unthinking trolls are shouted down on PJM when. from 4 November through, say, 1 April, they were meekly tolerated. One notices a healthy slice of indignation towards the “holier-than-thou-libertarians” blaming them for their non-McCain/Palin vote for the crap-fest that engulfs our nation.
As another shred of evidence bearing up David’s assertion is the smack-down of the back-down in the comments responding to the article on The Boy King’s proclamation that the August deadline of his healthcare reform is no longer important..
..yeah, right.
I think I see a few more pitch forks and torches in the gathering mob, bwana.
..of course, joist shoulda been joust.
Did anyone notice the subtle but telling change in Obama’s healthcare rhetoric in his radio address yesterday? Healthcare reform is now health insurance reform. Guess the WH insider polling showed Americans were seeing through the government heavy handedness and rationing disguised as “30% of healthcare is unnecessary”. So now it’s health insurance reform hoping to capture the general disdain that a huge portion of Americans have for health insurance companies. The real deceit however is that government and health insurers share the same goal–reduce payouts for healthcare and tighter restrictions on expensive yet lifesaving healthcare. No matter how they dress it up, healthcare reform is about reducing costs to “the system” at the expense of the patient.
“…the less chance there is to pass a gargantuan healthcare overhaul…”
Kudos, Jennifer. As Kill Bill’s Elle Driver said, “gargantuan” is a word that one “so rarely has an opportunity to use in a sentence.”
But you’re right: It sure does apply to what Obama has in mind. Fortunately, cooler (and saner) heads might prevail.
I have come to the understanding that Barack Obama and his cronies and associates all hate that same America that most of us love and respect. Look at public statements from his wife, his preacher, his buddies, all focus on what they cannot tolerate about our country and its people. So, what his real agenda appears to be is to tear our nation down so he can rebuild it in his image, a kinder more socialist european nation, one where the evil crime of working hard and enjoying the fruits of your labors is punished by the confiscation of your earnings to be redistributed to the less fortunate.
He intends to cripple US industry to allow the third world to catch up. He would destroy our cutting edge advances in medical care to make treatment more uniform across the board, though that treatment would have to be rationed to meet costs. I’m fairly sure he truly believes the old communist philosophy of from each according to their ability, to each according to their need, while totally failing to understand the cold hard fact that such a society will always have more need than ability and so degenerate into a morass of want and privation.
Short of impeachment which the Democrats would never permit Obama is beyond our direct reach. What we can do is marginalize his effects on our society and our country by direct threats against the senators and representatives who must seek reelection. Put their cushy jobs at risk, make it clear that if they support any more of BHO’s depredations they will find themselves out of work at the next election. Now is the time for damage control, minimize any further harm and limp along until 2012 when we can find some leader to heal the wounds created by this administration.
Its going to cost a fortune in stimulus swag to buy off the recalcitrant dems on the “kill grandma bill.”Lucky for him its not his own money he’s using.The real question is can he bribe enough freshman democrats who envision years of lining their own pockets with lobby money to vote a certain way?
16 mishu – any mention of The Who tells me I’m in a good place. The song that runs through my head when I listen to BHO and wait for specifics is from A Wonderful World (Sam Cooke or James Taylor singing):
Don’t know much about history
Don’t know much biology
Don’t know much about a science book
Don’t know much about the french I took
But I do know that I love you (BHO sings ME)
And I know that if you love me too
What a wonderful world this would be
Don’t know much about geography
Don’t know much trigonometry
Don’t know much about algebra
Don’t know what a slide rule is for
I substitute my own words now and then…you get the idea.
Ted Kennedy supposedly wrote an article for Newsweek to flack for the sick care plan. He starts off with the old poor, poor me dodge and then says it is the passion of his life to provide sick care to all just like the care Senators get.
“Nurses would regularly turn me over so my lungs didn’t fill with fluid. I knew the care was expensive, but I didn’t have to worry about that. I needed the care and I got it.”
“But quality care shouldn’t depend on your financial resources, or the type of job you have, or the medical condition you face. Every American should be able to get the same treatment that U.S. senators are entitled to.”
Cost much? LMAO.
Mary Jo Kopecky’s lungs were filled with fluid too. She got no help whatever. The passion of my life is to keep socialism marginalized in the U.S. That passion is shared by many others at PJM and elsewherein America, thank heavens.
Italics run amock…sorry.
Check Mate? #5
It’s not just that BO wants this legislation passed; it’s that he doesn’t care what is in the legislation. He is not fighting for specific programs. He is trying to rack up signing ceremonies. It is all about glory. He wass the first Black president. He brought about a national healthcare system. He stopped the rising of the oceans. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that he is soliciting money for his own memorial on the Mall.
Grandmother’s hip operation and bankrupt small businesses don’t really count much in his grand scheme of things.
Don’t let the House and Senate up for air on this disgraceful healthcare legislation. Keep those letters, cards, e-mails and telephone calls coming! And don’t forget, the Senate has deferred action on the commerce-killing “Cap and Trade bill until September. Now is not the time to spare the outrage!
All the spin in the world cannot keep the facts from coming to light. The black hole price of health care is just the beginning of unsustainable debt & could possibly bankrupt the United States if Cap & Trade does not first…! I just love watching the inevitable fall from grace of the would-be-dictator, President Obama, as his incompetence comes home to roost. Campaigning & speeches do not make a President, but leadership in the Executive Branch does. President Obama has miscalculated & is paying the price.
If your insurance company was going to cancel your policy it will be done now.
Once government runs healthcare it defines
what constitutes adequate healthcare.
An example for instance right across the
border in Ontario Canada was the end of
funding of routine eye exams for those
20-64 while reinstating funding for
sexual reassignment surgery by the
Liberal government. The sex-change
funding was previously dropped by a
Conservative government.
Many things covered by private insurance
in the US are not covered by government
insurance or entail long waiting lists
for services that one is entitled to
at a lesser frequency than privately.
In truth healthcare becomes an unofficial
triage system where much of the
consideration is made on financial grounds
because money is always short. Being
connected becomes a valuable asset.
Also in socialized medicine malpractice
tends to get swept under the rug and
provides an ideal environment for
unionization further raising costs while
lowering service standards.
“holier-than-thou-libertarians”
These are the yuppies who share Obama’s cultural war values. They knew that he was lying to the blue collar bubbas about trade issues—but he wasn’t supposed to lie to them! Obama’s affiliation with a number of radical leftists was dismissed as necessary pandering to blacks and other “disenfranchised” voters. One shouldn’t take it seriously. These urban professionals now feel like total fools. Obama is hurting them financially—and that changes everything. They will not forgive anyone who is messing with their money.
I also do not expect Obama to finish out his term in office. There a very good chance that he will experience a mental breakdown. He never really wanted to be president of a constitutional democracy. Obama thought he would be the Anointed One who would turn America into a utopian paradise. All would fall down before his great wisdom and overall wonderfulness. Obama doesn’t have clue how to accept the limitations the general public now wishes to impose on him.
It is becoming clear that the Obama glow is starting to diminish. This is not because of something that happened this week or last. It is a growing recognition that the Obama administration is guilty of the worst kind of intellectual dishonesty as epitomized by the gross and corrupt stimulus bill. The urgent screams that this bloated and misdirected bill had to be passed Right Now or the world would come to an end have been shown to be nothing but the worst kind of manipulation. More and more people are recognizing that the real urgency for the administration was that if the people had had a few days to find out what was in the bill they would have certainly rejected it. Nearly a trillion dollars was wasted with less deliberation than most people would give to a home appliance purchase. This same manipulation was used to pass the Crap and Tax bill in the House and now they are going for the “three times is a charm” with the Nationalize and Destroy Healthcare bill. The administration is in a race to see if they can ram this through before they loose too much momentum. Evey day this legislation is held up the better the chances the whole agenda will crumble. Expect an all out war effort to force the hesitant dems in line.
Well praise baby Jesus for some actual sanity!
Let’s hope ‘sanity’ becomes a new ‘trend’.
“The president rushed to the microphone on…”
Good Lord, when does he not? Read somewhere(wish I could find it again)that TehOne has quacked at us in some ‘official’ MSM form Every Day since the start of this national farce, missing only 7(seven) days. Likely travel-days for his ongoing World Apology Tour.
Give it a rest, Barry. Get one of your Obot drones to google ‘Overexposure’
Hugo Chavez did not have these sorts of problems when he ushered in his new century of socialism. Perhaps there is still something right with the American system. Whatever that is, it has to be held out of the margins. “What ever God has joined together, let no man render asunder.”
Look, I work in the healthcare business, and a lot of us KNOW how badly messed up and unnecessarily complicated it is. But setting up a “free” program to force the insurance companies to compete against it isn’t a solution.
Okay, so the system should be reformed, and maybe there should be a way for those who can’t afford it to get some kind of insurance. Why not ask the industry what should be done? Why not ask those who treat people? Why not ask the consumers? Why not ask the individual states in which insurance companies operate? In short, why are we letting politicians craft their soak the successful solutions to the problem?
If ObamaCare doesn’t pass, he gets his economic recovery foil, according to the folks at Senator Harkin’s office. ObamaCare is being aggressively repackaged as a stimulus precondition, necessary should we want to avoid the sequal to the Great Depression and “save jobs.” I asked the testy staffer if, should this be the case, why wouldn’t our Senators and Representatives then join in the stimulating and make themselves subject to the same job-saving program?
Indeed, if the banner of “necessary to stimulate/avoid total economic collapse” is being applied to taxing upper earners, slashing Medicare and Medicaid benefits, telling doctors they have to accept much lower payments for services rendered, etc., why the hell hasn’t Congress led by example? Effective tomorrow, let’s slash their pay in half, tell them all healthcare services will now be provided at the VA, eliminate their travel budgets (as we in business have done in many cases), and let them take public transportation or drive their own green vehicle?
We’re so damn mad out here that we’re ready to storm the castle. Anyone want to join us? Time to throw them all out. No more pointing fingers.
#20 hoads
Your point is well taken and the uninsured, who by the way, are often charged double the amount charged to insurance companies for the exact same procedures, will be the rope in the tug of war between the health care industry, the insurance industry, and the government.
Just as the patient was causght in the tug of war between the insurance industry and the health industry twenty odd years ago we are just adding another entity into the mix.
You are correct, the average patient will suffer while the others battle.
“Twenty-one freshmen congressmen and a second-termer banded together to write a letter opposing the House Democrats’ proposed surtax on the “wealthy,” complaining that now is no time for a tax hike on high income earners which includes thousands of small businesses. They wrote, “Especially in a recession, we need to make sure not to kill the goose that will lay the golden eggs of our recovery. We are concerned that this will discourage entrepreneurial activity.”
Could there be any more compelling proof of the need to term limit the autocrats in Congress than this? Not one person who had served more than two terms was cognizant of this basic fact? Talk about being out of touch.
@20 – Hoads – He likes to change the labels in mid-stream. The Stimulus has become the Stabilization bill. They really must think we are soooo stupid. I hope he has next to no ratings for his presser next week. Everyone needs to vow to watch reruns or read a book and turn the TV off while he is on. Or – participate in a live blog – they are more fun anyway.
dont high 5 it yet. you have some of the most vicious thugs ever, fresh from chicago-land where they take no prisoners, in washington. they will resort to anything and everything to get what they want done.
remember, the MSM is still providing a massive amount of free air cover. the MSM is fully capable of nazi style propaganda, and can make the new and improved obama-care seem like the best thing since sliced bread.
my bet is that this is not over yet.
Obama and the Democrats are liars. All throughout the campaign Obama touted the notion of health care “reform” as a means to reduce rising health care costs. Proposing a “solution” that costs 1.5 TRILLION turns the cost savings goal on its head. Obama will never be able to keep his promise that 95% of americans won’t see a tax increase. If he manages to get his socialist policies passed, of course we will.
The only way tp reduce costs is through the free market.
The fact that Obama isn’t truly interested in reducing costs and the House bill contains the death of private insurance proves that the REAL goal is now and has always been the government takeover of the entire health care system
This is totalitarian as well as clearly unconstitutional.
The GOP needs to demand that the Democrats name under which section of the Constitution the federal government is allowed to take over, or even be involved with, health care.
I will not become a slave to the state. I will fight this evil government and to quote a famous patriot, “Give me liberty or give me death!”
As usual, the Democrats overreach to socialist centralized control and oppression every time they have power. They hate choice; they hate diversity, they hate economic freedom, they hate wealth and success and their ideology is racialist.
Commuinity Organizer = Marxist.
Well praise the LORD for some actual sanity!
Let’s hope ’sanity’ becomes a new ‘trend’.
It’s infuriating that the “relief for American families” never includes tax cuts. My taxes are my largest expense. Want to give me relief? STOP confiscating the fruits of MY labor!
our brave and courageous congress and president are going to keep trying again and again, bill after bill hoping the public will lose interest or tire of fighting.
Oh, fiddlesticks. Well, on to the next item on the agenda: Bamajugend. The money we don’t spend on health care can go to the “civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded’ as our military”. I like the sound of “Reichsmarschall Ayers”.
Peace,
CKIAH
give it up people …reality and common sense are not going to prevail with the pesent crowd in office (Obuma and freinds)
the only hope is that enough people on these web pages like pajamas media, frontpage magazine Michelle Malkin, etc can get the word out to a sufficient number of independant people to write to their congressional representatives to limit the damage. right now this is not happening.
48. College Know-It-All Hippy: “I like the sound of “Reichsmarschall Ayers”.”
That’s IT! In preparation for our coming Overlords, we need to get together a handy list of Titles used by the Third Reich in naming their endless number of bureaucrats. Every town & village though-out their sphere had them, if I recall correctly. This would save us some time, as they’re likely to be same-for-same swap-outs.
Hmmm, somewhere I recently saw something like a suitable list…
Pretty sure it was somewhere in the opening chapters of Peter Duffy’s The Bielsky Brothers when describing all the Party apparatchiks sent by the Reich to spy-on & control the locals.
I agree with the preponderance of opinions written here — that this bill is hideously out-of-proportion in it’s deficit spending.
It would indeed be a back-breaker of this country should cooler heads in congress not prevail.
From liberals: You have the right to half-assed, lousy healthcare that’ll probably kill you if you’re unhealthy enough to need it (unless we feel you’re not worth the effort), to have most of your income taken in taxes to pay for it and to be worse off overall that if we hand’t done anything! (Remember, it’s for your own good– it’ll make liberals feel good about themselves for once, which is worth more to them than your life.)
Let’s just hope that it never becomes law at all. I too am so tired of all media constantly reporting on this goon. If I see a television and he is on it I look away if I can not turn it off, if I hear him on the radio I turn it off or down, and I do not read newspapers. Vote the democrats out in 2010 and 2012 even a “Yellow Dog” would be better than this goon.
To Rachel Peepers:
Bravo! Well said!
We need to begin sounding the clarion right now that we will be sending new congressmen and senators to Washington in 2010 with a mandate. That mandate will be the immediate removal of Barack Obama from office. If that means that we have to muddle through with two years of Slow Joe then so be it.
Funny to stumble across two wacko right wingnut websites in the same day.
I’ll laugh when the Democrats SHOVE health care reform down your status quo throats!!!
Marvin8, it’s not going to happen. Why? 2010 elections. The Democrats are scared given Porkulus has failed to live up to the hype while unemployment increases. You want Universal Health Care? Move to Canada, Europe, or better yet, Communist Cuba. The Dems are in trouble for shoving Porkulus down our throats & now they are beside themselves trembling in fear for their own irresponsible actions. The Democrats must answer for Porkulus to their constituents & are not giving any good answers. They have a right to be embarrassed. As a result, Socialized medicine is on life support. So is Card Check & Cap & Trade…
Pay attention little mind.
I for one am looking forward to seeing this bill go down in flames as well as Obama right behind it. Hey favorable is now 56.2% and falling while disapprovals are rising like a rocket. It appears that the new has wore off him and as a friend of mine always said “You can’t polish a turd” and you can’t make chicken soup out of chicken sh!t.
To Rachel Peepers: Bravo!
56. Marvin8..
“..Hey, look guys, I trolled over on the grown-up site and even left a smiley-face..am I not cool or what?”
Marvin8, in Comment #56, certainly demonstrated a subtle command of the issues, and an ability to engage his interlocutors in rational, dispassionate discussion of the key points of the complex and daunting problem of bringing health care to as many Americans as possible, in an efficient, affordable, and humane way.
Jamie Irons
It’s gonna paaaasssss.
Be careful of universal health care. I’m from Canada and it’s a mess. It’s paid by our high taxes which don’t cover services. So, services are cut. For example, you can’t get an annual eye exam, and wait times for surgery, for tests, are in the months not weeks.
Most of the money goes, not to care, but to the massive expanding bureaucracy of the health care system. The money goes to unionized salaries of accountants, bookkeepers, file keepers and medical staff. It doesn’t go to equipment, which is outdated; to clean hospitals and clinics, which are themselves sites of infection.
Care? Forget it. Many people don’t have family physicians, doctors leave for the US. If you need treatment, many go to the US,since it can take a year and more for such.
Don’t copy the failed Canadian system, America. Fight back against a narcissistic President whose only interest is in his power to control you.
61. Jamie Irons:
I must concur that he was quite eloquent in expressing the Health Insurance Reform the new word for the boondoggle and almost completely changed my mind but I still have questions that were unanswered by his insightful comment.
I wonder does he give seminars cause I am sure he could make something of himself with such an endeavor. Vote out the democrats in the 2010 elections and attend a Tea Party and support conservative candidates even if they are not in your district.
Want to hear a personal Story about Nationalized Healthcare?
http://www.bloggybayou.com/2009/05/on-national-healthcare-personal-story.html
Bottom Line: It sucks….
56. Marvin8:
Funny to stumble across two wacko right wingnut websites in the same day.
I’ll laugh when the Democrats SHOVE health care reform down your status quo throats!!!
Jul 19, 2009 – 12:55 pm
Hopefully, I’ll get to laugh if you die a slow, painful death from the resulting sh*tstorm of crappy care.
“36. JED: Hugo Chavez did not have these sorts of problems when he ushered in his new century of socialism. Perhaps there is still something right with the American system.”
It’s called the 2nd amendment. Armed citizenry is the only thing preventing this poser, or any other, from becoming President for life.
As well it should die,and with a quick death.
I’ll just keep on “goin’ Galt” and allow ‘Marvin8′ and his fellow progessives to support my existence as long as their socialist policies enable me to do so here in the California People’s Republic of Soviet Monica.
By living here in “progressive” southern California – I have only had to actually work approximately 12 months since the year 2000. Additionally, I have only had to pay my way for about 10 of the past 29 years. I simply allow all the progressive Santa Monica, California voters go to work and live off of their easygoing handout policies whilst I get my fill of bodysurfing, surfing, beach volleyball, tennis, golf, basketball, softball, nightclubs, sports bars, pool halls, pubs, poker nights, football, etc.
So, Marvin8, I do appreciate you and your fellow leftists’ generosity. Whether you know it or not – the policies that you continuously support have allowed me to basically have a blast for the past three decades at your expense.
Maybe I’ll actually pursue gainful employment when my very own government demands that of its’ citizens, until then…..it’s on and crackin’. Ciao.
Obama has never led anything. He wasn’t in the military. He was never a govenor or mayor. He was not CEO of a big company. Of course he is not qualified to be president. Of course all his plans are incompetant and a danger to this country. He will never get elected again because people are waking up and his popularity is declining. That’s why he is in such a rush to push legislation through.
what you have to remember is the worst the economy is and the higher the unemployment the better obama likes it.It gives an excuse to to grow govt. and destroy capitalism.He wants to institute marxism and does not care if he is re elected as long as the changes take place. the Soviet system lasted 70 years and obama”s system will last 50 years longer with the store of wealth the private system has accumulated and the govt. can leach away on for many, many years before it collapses and obama and the socialist leaders will have a good life.
5 committees, 3 have already passed bills. The threat of budget reconciliation is still left. I don’t know what’s more delusional, the GOP’s idea that it would do anything other than hurt themselves by opposing Sotomayor or this idea that that they can actually do something about healthcare reform.
To#65 – that’s an accurate story about nationalized health care. It’s like that in Canada.
As I said, most of the money, and it’s a LOT of money, goes to the expanding, increasing bureaucracy of the system; that is, to the secondary record keeping referential system. It doesn’t go to doctors, equipment and care. It doesn’t go to update and modernize hospitals.
Canadians rely, and I really mean that, on the existence of the US system right next door to them. When they can’t get treament, and this is very common, they go to the US for that treatment. This includes eye surgery, cancer treatments, heart treatments – you name it. People go to the US for treatment because they can’t get it here in Canada.
The treatment might not be available. Or it might not be funded (such as eye exams); or the wait time for that treatment might be very long (a year or more).
What will Canadians do if they don’t have the excellent medical services of the US next door, to bolster up the inadequate Canadian system?
President Obama is learning turning the United States of America into a Socialist Utopia Republic is much harder than he thought; after all, it is his job to represent the Constitution–not shred it.
What U.S. healthcare should look like:
People contribute according to their income and receive benefits according to their income (something like Plan A, B or C).
Minimum benefits should include preventive care & medicine, access to a primary care physician, specialists by referral, access to hospitals with deductibles, drug coverage by formulary, no Medicare overlapping.
Medical fees are audited and negotiated.
Prescription drug costs are audited and negotiated.
Continuous fine-tuning of plan procedures and benefits.
75. vivo writes:
“What U.S. healthcare should look like: people contribute according to their income and receive benefits according to their income..”
You mean, the richer you are, the better health care plan you can afford? Isn’t that what we have today? Except the government is not involved.
Simply having this national conversation about health care reform cracks open the door to the liberal salesman which invites disaster. We’ve now opened the door to (at the very least) some type of watered down version of socialist medicine. Americans have the best health care available on this planet. From experience, any American can walk into their local emergency room and receive the best care possible and pay for that care ($10 a week for life if neccessary).
A loud and clear “NO” to any type of reforms to a system which works nicely for the majority.
Poor RP seems to have gone completely off the deep end this time. She is like a moth to the flame of wingnuttery.
“Sotomayor wants to destroy this country; shread the constituion, see things in the constitution that aren’t there to spread her brand of, (let’s call it like it is) socialism.” There you go again with the sweeping assertion that substitute for presenting facts and making the case. You shortcut right to the assertions. Somehow -if you ever do get to court – I doubt if any judge will be impressed with your arguments
Uh oh…Now the Governors are saying NO to Obama. Sweet! The kool-aid must be running out.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/20/health/policy/20health.html
Uh oh….Now the AP is reporting “nervous” democrats? Sweet! They must be finally listening to their constituents instead of ACORN.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j4PYGKun8FwQE1yOv3xp0SYIgM9AD99GNCF00
#25 ditto..Mary Jo Kopechne , thanks to “Uncle Teddy” she died 40 years ago July 18 this year. Guess they never got the fluid out of her lungs Uncle Teddy.
There needs to be a law that NO bills can be passed until everyone has read the bill, discusses the bill and can give the people back home a darned good reason why they voted for it. Also, I want to know where those suckers are all the time!! Asking too much???
Talk you representatives in Washington . These people need to be held accountable to US!! and campaigned against at every turn if they vote for this!!!
Agreed!!…communit organizer = Marxist.
I still see him sneaking parts of this bill in somehow somewhere. Obama doesn’t care what we want or need.
talk to your “indenpendent” friends too.
Don’t let up on this thing until it’s got a stake in its heart AND has been drawn and quartered. Keep fighting. Aim past the breaking point of the target.
The waking nightmare of every Blue Dog and every RINO has to become: how many of us will Obama sacrifice for his goals? And why should I be sacrificed?
Obama has two paths before him now: Carter or Clinton. He shows no sign of choosing wisely.
We need to stop squawking about what this isn’t and start recognizing what this is.
It isn’t about health care – it most certainly isn’t about “care.”
“Health care reform” is simply a vehicle. It happens to be a hot button vehicle for use because everyone wants decent medical coverage in times of emergency and for instances of chronic care.
When the Dims start yammering about health care, you need to substitute “health care” with “socialism” since that’s REALLY what this is all about. Health care is nothing more than a vehicle used to drive socialism “home” to the American people. Here it comes, toodling down the street.
Oh look – here’s another vehicle: the cap and tax car, and it’s filled with socialism too!
But wait! There’s more! Here’s another vehicle, this one’s make and model is “Stimulus.” Guess what? It’s full of socialism too!
These vehicles for chauffeuring socialism into America have been used by the liberal left for decades. We can rip the engine out of the vehicle and remove the tires … but they’ll just find another vehicle.
Stop the vehicle at the border, arrest the socialism for treason, impound the vehicle, then sell it to some other poor sucker who always wanted to work on a clunker. Or better yet: destroy it once and for all in that scary car smasher thingie.
David Thomson: “I also do not expect Obama to finish out his term in office. There a very good chance that he will experience a mental breakdown.”
Intriguing.
76. Войска ПВО:
“You mean, the richer you are, the better health care plan you can afford? Isn’t that what we have today? Except the government is not involved.”
It’s an idea. The cheapest plan could cover the basics, better than nothing. More affluent people could get some ‘perks’. I don’t know if this works or not. An idea for discussion.
Marvin8, are you still going to be laughing when you eventually realize that you’ll be working just to be able to pay your taxes? Your paychecks won’t stretch far enough to pay anything else, provided you’ll be working that is.
Obama’s major problem is that he has chosen to interpret his election as a mandate from the people to do whatever he wants. He doesn’t seem to understand that he only won because the Republicans were in such turmoil that the best they could come up with was Bush-Lite and Caribou Barbie. He could never have won against a decent opponent.
Obama will regret hanging the rationale of socialized medicine on “lowering costs.” That is when he Jumped The Shark. That sucking sound was his credibility deflating in the eyes of the 7-10% of the “moderate” WASPs that won him the election (many of whom are now unemployed – memo to Obama, taxing your voters’ bosses into oblivion isn’t a good way to maintain loyalty of the newly converted). This will be up there with Bush’s WMD rationale for the Iraq War. Oh well, another dipshit pol bites the dust.
You are all correct but you must also remember that the Obama-nation will look more like a very muslim country, beyond socialism. This is seen in his proposed ‘taxes’ if you do not comply with his edicts, either in health care of whatever he proposes. Socialism is only his start if he can ram it through this largely un-American, purely self-interested, Congress. Health care is hone of his main programs to weaken our society to become more Socialistic. His control of our health care and its cost(s) will weaken our society to strengthen his control.
the next ram through bill???
SHARIA !!!!! get them burkas out baby!!!
most of the people i know who dont’t have healthcare can afford it but would rather have the disposable income(myself included).
if the goverment really wants to help the truly needy they should increase entitlements for the disabled and mentally ill.
people forced to subsist on disablity right now recieve crumbs,the vast majority i have met would give anything just to be able to make a living.
here is the SNAP program(foodstamps)try eating healthy on those:
http://www.snap-step1.usda.gov/fns/
i agree with those who argue this is an obvious grab for power.as a bad as that is,it also means it will only make matters worse for the least among us,the ones we really should be concerned about.not some lazy idiot who doesn’t want to give up his/her beer,delivery pizza and Xbox to pay his/her premiums.
92 shau-jan . . . So if you don’t have healthcare and you get sick, who’s gonna pay for your treatment? My father-in-law is undergoing cancer treatment. On a recent hospital bill, there was an item listed as “band-aid” which they placed on his arm after removing an IV. The cost for the band-aid was $18.
So who’s gonna pay for your $18 band-aids when you get sick or injured? Or are you just gonna lie there bleeding in the gutter spouting, “Death to socialism!”
70. Eileen:
“Obama has never led anything.” … You mean other than the free world?
“He wasn’t in the military.” … But he’s commander in chief.
There are only four people on earth who have more American presidential experience than Obama – two of them are Clinton and Carter. The other two are Bushes.
be careful. he is not out yet. obama does not care about you, he has things to get done. such as the complete remake of the US as a socialist republic.
if cap and tax and then obamacare passes, the US will be at about 50% of the economy run by the government. Note that germany is at about 45%.
at that point there will no money left to fund the private sector. there will be fewer jobs, and the country will go into a death spiral resulting in a much lower standard of living.
obumbler’s health care plan deserves to die. My friends twin grandson’s would have died in their infancy from a genetic disorder if they’d had to rely upon national health care. They had to have bone marrow transplants, never would have happend with government medicine.
as for the current propaganda ploy that “the US is the only developed country that doesn’t have a national plan”, it sounds like a teenager who’s mother never took time to put reality into perspective with “if everyone jumped off a cliff, would you jump too?”
96. ked5:
” it sounds like a teenager who’s mother never took time to put reality into perspective with “if everyone jumped off a cliff, would you jump too?”
That’s the problem with conservatives, they never leave childhood – all cowboys and indians and Barbie dolls and GI Joes and “I know you are but what am I?”
97. Now and Then:
96. ked5:
” it sounds like a teenager who’s mother never took time to put reality into perspective with “if everyone jumped off a cliff, would you jump too?”
That’s the problem with conservatives, they never leave childhood – all cowboys and indians and Barbie dolls and GI Joes and “I know you are but what am I?”
~~
Yeah. That’s “the problem with liberals”, they think they’re grown-ups and don’t realize how foolish they come across to the real adults.
93.now and then.huh?i remark that most of people i know who are uninsured do so by choice and we should focus our finite resources on the truly needy…what does that have to do with your ill FIL(hopefully he fully recovers)and socialism?
93.now and then.”So who’s gonna pay for your $18 band-aids when you get sick or injured?”
i will,just as i have done in the past,$8000.00 broken hand,$7500.00 oral surgery,$1600.00 ambulance and emergency room visit.
over the last decade,each one put me the hole bad(no vacations for years,drive a crappy car)
again,my choice.
go to a state run convalescent home,psychiatric hospital,”outreach center” group home or orphanage sometime and then come back and tell me why i(and every other responsible adult) needs the goverment’s help securing medical coverage.
I was about to write a message about healthcare reform hoping I could strike some intelligent conversation with people who have a different view, But after reading some of the messages I see there aren’t many intelligent people who blog on this page. The system right now is built for people other then yourself (any one that blogs on this site isn’t benefiting from the current system) and all of you keep repeating the garbage that they tell you “Socialism”, “Liberal”, etc… Stop and think about what you are arguing because you are clearly arguing against what’s best for yourself.
About Health care I would rather be in line like England and Canada then to not be in line at all. People who say that they get great care cause are members of Congress or the wealthy folk that put them in congress every year. No one is looking for a free hand out; if you pay taxes then you would be paying for a national plan. Education and Health should be paid for with our taxes.
Paul 101.
Sorry to wake you from your utopian dream, comrade, but…
No one is denied healthcare ever in this country. See for yourself – drive your Eco-Twin-Gerbil-Vespa over to your local ER parking lot. Grab a ballpin hammer and give yourself a great big whack on that low-cap-ut. noggin of yours. Taddaaaa! You will wake up in a hospital bed, properly cared for. Now if your argument is for Nationalized Health INSURANCE, well then you ARE in fact a useful idiot socialist, because, well, um, that IS what a useful idiot socialist does….and btw, where do you think those tax ducats come from? The magic dollar tree? They come from the private productive part of our economy – you know, the part that is rapidly shrinking. So, what happens when everybody is on the receiving end and nobody is left on the giving end? If you are in need of a complicated, expensive medical procedure, you die, that is what.
100 shau-jan . . . Your examples are minor and therefore irrelevant. What about cancer treatment? Heart surgery? Accident trauma care. Organ removal or transplant. You know how much it costs to remove a gall bladder? $30K. The fact that you couldn’t take a vacation because you had to have your wisdom teeth pulled is not the issue. If you get really sick or injured, you CAN’T pay for it. You are INCAPABLE of paying for it. And so you will BEG to be treated or fixed or cured because there’s no reason someone like you should die or be disabled or disfigured just because you can’t afford the proper care in this, the richest country on earth. YOU. WILL. BEG. for the government/public to pick up your tab.
Jennifer, my compliments on giving the title of Dr. David Gratzer’s book as the first elements of your headline.
It goes a long way to show what needs to be changed in Canada, and if Obama and crew succeed, in the United States.
103.read 102.and as far as “YOU. WILL. BEG.”is concerned,show me proof.(not just isolated instances).as i have stated earlier,if we go to a national health care system there will be rationing,which will negatively impact the most vulnerable.if i get sick and it bankrupts me so what,i still prefer to have access to the best care in the world.
p.s. sheesh-o……getting your wisdom teeth pulled is a gentle tickle compared to what i experienced,AFTER getting them pulled,of course.
Paul and Now and Ten – Your mistake is to use facts and logic with the wingnuts. They are immune to any rational discourse. You can only come here to see their rants not to engage them in dialog. You might as well engage the Ayatola in a discussion of the virtue of forgiveness. I wonder if they act like this in disputes about nonpolitical issues. My guess is yes. It must make for challenging personal relations for them with wives husbands fellow workers.
It’s a case of “be careful what you wish for”, but it isn’t over. The Democrats will push for whatever they can get or sneak in, in order to try and take over healthcare, now or in the future. The goals are foar more than just healthcare. Remember Healthcare is 17% of our free market economy. Successful take over of healthcare will launch the complete socialist takeover of this country.
No-nothing right wingers (which is probably a redundant description) seem to be in denial about the state of our healthcare system — every year it provides less service for tons more money. Compared to the bulk of industrialized countries, it sucks, especially if you’re elderly. Out infant mortality rate is also a disgrace, emergency room wait times a joke, and more and more often, doctor visits have to be scheduled months in advance. During recessions, including this one, everything else might go down in price or at worse stay the same, *except* for healthcare costs — with them it’s always up, up and away. I have health insurance, but if I ever needed some sort of advance, life-or-death medical treatment, I would hop on the first plane to Scandinavia or France where their treatments are more and more often years ahead of ours.
This “DumbassCare” absolutely needs to end, so Obama is a lot, LOT more correct than his critics on this. My only issue is with the timing — the financial markets aren’t completely repaired yet and you are going to need the same sort of forensics accounting applied to the healthcare system to get a handle on where the money is currently going — hospital systems and such make everyone sign confidentiality and non-disclosure agreements these days to obstruct queries into their actual financials. I think it might be better to make this a fall or spring battle, when there is hopefully more complete data, than a summer one, although I can understand his desire to take advantage of his momentum.
106.i am sure you’re blast at parties,with a wide circle of friends….like all trolls.
108:”I would hop on the first plane to Scandinavia or France where their treatments are more and more often years ahead of ours.”
and:
“the financial markets aren’t completely repaired yet”
okay THAT is nutty…but you are going to have to do alot better than that to win the coveted “head moonbat” award.
To shau-jan: what part of that post did you not understand? I do know that people who use the word “moonbat” are often the same people who use words and phrases like: ca-ca; uh-ohhh; ma, my shoelace’s untied; where’s the birth certificate?; global warming is a hoax; we never landed on the moon; whoa, this dude on the Internet told me that I have a lot of money coming; Vegas baby!; and so on….
110.bc.if you’re looking for an intelligent discussion on a subject almost anyone can agree on(the need for healthcare reform),fine.
wandering in here;throwing around tired,boring insults,spouting off fantasies,as well as shilling for a statist.well…that is exactly what a moonbat does,and yes”climate change” is simply another of the many attempts at controlling human development.(it is not a bad scam if you’re a believer in the “population bomb”theory.)
you can effectively remove most heavey metals out of coal,but sucessfully sequestering CO2 is a pipedream(for now):
http://www.princeton.edu/~chm333/2002/fall/co_two/minerals/zec.htm
now this is something i think we should address immediatly:
http://epa.gov/waterscience/fish/advice/
“Do not eat Shark, Swordfish, King Mackerel, or Tilefish because they contain high levels of mercury.”
and this:
http://overfishing.org/pages/why_is_overfishing_a_problem.php
“Thus a total of almost 80% of the world’s fisheries are fully- to over-exploited, depleted, or in a state of collapse. Worldwide about 90% of the stocks of large predatory fish stocks are already gone. In the real world all this comes down to two serious problems”
THIS scares the be-jebis outta me:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/10/19/SS6JS8RH0.DTL&hw=pacific+patch&sn=001&sc=1000
” Great Pacific Garbage Patch – a heap of debris floating in the Pacific that’s twice the size of Texas, according to marine biologists.”
no need for al goebbel’s ‘chicken little’ act…..the situation is dire enough.
To shau-jan: aside from some, I think, well-deserved and well-directed insults, pretty much everything I post is backed up by a floating glacier’s worth of in-context data from reliable sources, meaning that I actually do some homework before shooting off a post. This means I don’t use opinion pieces, especially from people and organizations obviously not genuine experts in the field under discussion, and even more especially if they have political axes to grind. And while I do have a certain expertise in certain areas, I don’t even use that as an excuse to play make believe scientist, especially in regards to things like global warming. One technique used quite a bit by some GW deniers is to parse out bits of random data and research from legitimate sites and try to be some sort of ersatz scientist. No, this doesn’t work.
As far as your bits about pollution go, like mercury contamination, it’s quite worrisome that something from way back in the early industrial revolution days could still end up spreading so far and wide. That should have been much more of a warning that it sometimes doesn’t take that much effort by us humans to affect large areas of that little fragile coating on the Earth that we call the biosphere, which we and all life on this planet (as far as we know) lives.
bc.mercury contamination is both undeniable and solvable,so is the island of garbage,depleted fisheries(what billions use as their source of protein)…global warming is neither,wasting resources on a theoretical problem instead of dealing with ones that are indisputable and urgent seems illogical to me.
the links i provided were of convenience,nitpicking and semantics aside.
I agree with Steve #53. I turn off the radio at the first sound of his voice. The day after the election I cancelled my cable service. I told the rep that I wasn’t going to continue to pay the whining liberal news media who shoved Barack Obama down our throats.