Comments on: Climategate: Imminent Demise of Glaciers Due to … a Typo! http://pjmedia.com/blog/climategate-imminent-demise-of-glaciers-due-to-a-typo/ Wed, 15 Feb 2012 22:15:42 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: mauri pelto http://pjmedia.com/blog/climategate-imminent-demise-of-glaciers-due-to-a-typo/#comment-461396 mauri pelto Sat, 05 Dec 2009 12:33:15 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=73536#comment-461396 Glaciers in the Alps did begin to retreat in 1860, but more than 60% of those in Switzerland advanced at some point during the 1950-1980 period. The recent rapid retreat is not part of a long term retreat. Note Swiss glacier commission data http://glaciology.ethz.ch/messnetz/lengthvariation.html It cannot be ignored that there are glaciers disappearing, however, it is not a rapid process for large glaciers. For small glaciers like Milk Lake Glacier it is too late. http://glacierchange.wordpress.com/2009/07/19/milk-lake-glacier-loss/ The typo was also in a regional section, not in the section specifically on glaciers and ice sheets, which is why it was not caught by the glaciologic community in the draft, we would have corrected it. Glaciers in the Alps did begin to retreat in 1860, but more than 60% of those in Switzerland advanced at some point during the 1950-1980 period. The recent rapid retreat is not part of a long term retreat. Note Swiss glacier commission data
http://glaciology.ethz.ch/messnetz/lengthvariation.html
It cannot be ignored that there are glaciers disappearing, however, it is not a rapid process for large glaciers. For small glaciers like Milk Lake Glacier it is too late.
http://glacierchange.wordpress.com/2009/07/19/milk-lake-glacier-loss/
The typo was also in a regional section, not in the section specifically on glaciers and ice sheets, which is why it was not caught by the glaciologic community in the draft, we would have corrected it.

]]> By: Charlie Martin http://pjmedia.com/blog/climategate-imminent-demise-of-glaciers-due-to-a-typo/#comment-460922 Charlie Martin Fri, 04 Dec 2009 22:10:38 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=73536#comment-460922 #52 Mauri: Thanks for that link, Mauri. It looks like that's consistent to an order of magnitude with the 2350 date. #53 Graham: I won't complain about typos until we at least have a preview button. It's probably not worth a whole post, but I found that 1999 paper as well. As you note, it doesn't actually have <i>any</i> date for the eventual demise of the glaciers. I also discovered, curiously enough, that while the WWF apparently references that for the 2035 date, they don't <i>cite</i> it, nor did they include complete bibliographic data for it. Curious, that. #52 Mauri: Thanks for that link, Mauri. It looks like that’s consistent to an order of magnitude with the 2350 date.

#53 Graham: I won’t complain about typos until we at least have a preview button. It’s probably not worth a whole post, but I found that 1999 paper as well. As you note, it doesn’t actually have any date for the eventual demise of the glaciers. I also discovered, curiously enough, that while the WWF apparently references that for the 2035 date, they don’t cite it, nor did they include complete bibliographic data for it. Curious, that.

]]> By: Al http://pjmedia.com/blog/climategate-imminent-demise-of-glaciers-due-to-a-typo/#comment-460719 Al Fri, 04 Dec 2009 19:06:43 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=73536#comment-460719 the debate about global warming and whether anthropogenic forcing is really as significant as some people fear has become polluted. Science of this nature has been hijacked by hysteria which promotes greater public concern and therefore investment in research, benefitting those who conduct research involoving anything related to global warming. When will people realise that nature is adaptable. the debate about global warming and whether anthropogenic forcing is really as significant as some people fear has become polluted. Science of this nature has been hijacked by hysteria which promotes greater public concern and therefore investment in research, benefitting those who conduct research involoving anything related to global warming. When will people realise that nature is adaptable.

]]> By: Marie Claude http://pjmedia.com/blog/climategate-imminent-demise-of-glaciers-due-to-a-typo/#comment-460596 Marie Claude Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:38:07 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=73536#comment-460596 Dwight, the glaciers are melting since 1860 for the Alps, so we can't say that in this era, it was because populations were using oil ! Dwight,

the glaciers are melting

since 1860 for the Alps,

so we can’t say that in this era, it was because populations were using oil !

]]> By: Graham Cogley http://pjmedia.com/blog/climategate-imminent-demise-of-glaciers-due-to-a-typo/#comment-460595 Graham Cogley Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:36:58 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=73536#comment-460595 The examples of muddled-headed thinking in the first 30 comments above were too many to count, but I did find 14 typos and similar errors. John 8:7 (et seq.). It is more important to look ahead than to look back. How can we make sure that waste of time due to careless slips, from whatever point on the spectrum of opinion, can be avoided in the future? For a start, I am reminded of the sign somebody once put up in our department office: "Do not disengage brain while mouth is in motion". Rubbish about freedom has no place in a rational discussion of rubbish about Himalayan glaciers. The mystery report of the Working Group on Himalayan Glaciology, now unearthed from the minutes of a meeting of the Bureau of the International Commission for Snow and Ice, has been posted at http://www.cryosphericsciences.org/docs.html#ICSI1999 . But don't get excited - it doesn't say what people have been saying it says. For the benefit of C.K. (#51), perhaps I should explain a) that the Patagonian icefields are not in good shape either, though they are in better shape than Chacaltaya; and b) that the real reason why Chacaltaya Glacier is "seriously not possible" as a benchmark is that it ceased to exist last year, seven years earlier than in one prediction. The examples of muddled-headed thinking in the first 30 comments above were too many to count, but I did find 14 typos and similar errors. John 8:7 (et seq.).

It is more important to look ahead than to look back. How can we make sure that waste of time due to careless slips, from whatever point on the spectrum of opinion, can be avoided in the future? For a start, I am reminded of the sign somebody once put up in our department office: “Do not disengage brain while mouth is in motion”. Rubbish about freedom has no place in a rational discussion of rubbish about Himalayan glaciers.

The mystery report of the Working Group on Himalayan Glaciology, now unearthed from the minutes of a meeting of the Bureau of the International Commission for Snow and Ice, has been posted at http://www.cryosphericsciences.org/docs.html#ICSI1999 . But don’t get excited – it doesn’t say what people have been saying it says.

For the benefit of C.K. (#51), perhaps I should explain a) that the Patagonian icefields are not in good shape either, though they are in better shape than Chacaltaya; and b) that the real reason why Chacaltaya Glacier is “seriously not possible” as a benchmark is that it ceased to exist last year, seven years earlier than in one prediction.

]]> By: mauri pelto http://pjmedia.com/blog/climategate-imminent-demise-of-glaciers-due-to-a-typo/#comment-460353 mauri pelto Fri, 04 Dec 2009 13:11:12 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=73536#comment-460353 Let us not confuse a typo with what scientists in the field have been saying, myself included. The glaciers are retreating significantly, but they are large and cannot disappear overnight in the Himalaya or Glacier National Park. http://glacierchange.wordpress.com/2009/07/02/zemu-glacier-sikkim-thinning-and-retreat/ Let us not confuse a typo with what scientists in the field have been saying, myself included. The glaciers are retreating significantly, but they are large and cannot disappear overnight in the Himalaya or Glacier National Park.
http://glacierchange.wordpress.com/2009/07/02/zemu-glacier-sikkim-thinning-and-retreat/

]]> By: C. K. http://pjmedia.com/blog/climategate-imminent-demise-of-glaciers-due-to-a-typo/#comment-460225 C. K. Fri, 04 Dec 2009 07:05:48 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=73536#comment-460225 There are so many mistakes in the most recent IPCC report of the WG II! In WG I there are some of the worlds best heads in but I can hardly believe that in WG II are almost any trustable scientists in. It's not just the error with the Himalaya, they also made errors with the forecast of the disappearance of Andean glaciers. There they took the Chacaltaya glacier as benchmark which is seriously not possible as this is a small valley glacier and NOT comparable with the Patagonian ice fields! Hopefully they deliver a better work in with the next IPCC report in about 2 years. Without the help of Jeff Kargel and Graham Cogley this discussion wouldn't be in this bright audience it is now! Guys keep on going, you are on the right way!!! There are so many mistakes in the most recent IPCC report of the WG II! In WG I there are some of the worlds best heads in but I can hardly believe that in WG II are almost any trustable scientists in. It’s not just the error with the Himalaya, they also made errors with the forecast of the disappearance of Andean glaciers. There they took the Chacaltaya glacier as benchmark which is seriously not possible as this is a small valley glacier and NOT comparable with the Patagonian ice fields! Hopefully they deliver a better work in with the next IPCC report in about 2 years.
Without the help of Jeff Kargel and Graham Cogley this discussion wouldn’t be in this bright audience it is now! Guys keep on going, you are on the right way!!!

]]> By: Jeffrey Kargel http://pjmedia.com/blog/climategate-imminent-demise-of-glaciers-due-to-a-typo/#comment-460076 Jeffrey Kargel Fri, 04 Dec 2009 00:58:32 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=73536#comment-460076 My colleague, Graham Cogley, a glaciologist, tracked this "2035" typo down; you should listen to more of what he has to say. I and several colleagues, led by Graham, have exposed this error in the IPCC. It was a stupid blunder by one working group of the IPCC. People do make errors, and this was indeed a bad one. The IPCC volumes (all WG's) are almost entirely on target, something you should pay attention to. In our community, as in science in general, we correct these things when we find them and have an opportunity to make corrections. We go through painstaking review, and near continuous cross examination. If you want to swirl around like Bug's Bunny's Tasmanian Devil, just keep on swirling-- you won't go anywhere, and the dust you raise as a screen just annoys people. If you want information on what's happening to glaciers in reality, there are plenty of sources, including my GLIMS project, WGMS sources, NSIDC, glaciologists all over the world. Or better, visit some easy-to-visit ones: Athabasca Glacier (Alberta), Worthington Glacier (Alaska), and many others. If you learn one thing about me, as one witness to the widespread retreat and wasting of glaciers through most of the world, know that I am not a doomsdayer; things are not hopeless; far from it. But things are indeed hopeless if we ignore reality. My colleague, Graham Cogley, a glaciologist, tracked this “2035″ typo down; you should listen to more of what he has to say. I and several colleagues, led by Graham, have exposed this error in the IPCC. It was a stupid blunder by one working group of the IPCC. People do make errors, and this was indeed a bad one. The IPCC volumes (all WG’s) are almost entirely on target, something you should pay attention to. In our community, as in science in general, we correct these things when we find them and have an opportunity to make corrections. We go through painstaking review, and near continuous cross examination. If you want to swirl around like Bug’s Bunny’s Tasmanian Devil, just keep on swirling– you won’t go anywhere, and the dust you raise as a screen just annoys people. If you want information on what’s happening to glaciers in reality, there are plenty of sources, including my GLIMS project, WGMS sources, NSIDC, glaciologists all over the world. Or better, visit some easy-to-visit ones: Athabasca Glacier (Alberta), Worthington Glacier (Alaska), and many others. If you learn one thing about me, as one witness to the widespread retreat and wasting of glaciers through most of the world, know that I am not a doomsdayer; things are not hopeless; far from it. But things are indeed hopeless if we ignore reality.

]]> By: Charlie Martin http://pjmedia.com/blog/climategate-imminent-demise-of-glaciers-due-to-a-typo/#comment-459994 Charlie Martin Thu, 03 Dec 2009 22:59:59 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=73536#comment-459994 #48 JJ: <i>No one likes to talk about the fact that the Northern Ice Cap has lost so much mass that Shipping companies are planning on capitalizing on the new shipping routes that will be possible during the summer months.</i> They don't like to talk about the northwest passage opening up in the 30's either. #48 JJ: No one likes to talk about the fact that the Northern Ice Cap has lost so much mass that Shipping companies are planning on capitalizing on the new shipping routes that will be possible during the summer months.

They don’t like to talk about the northwest passage opening up in the 30′s either.

]]> By: J.J. http://pjmedia.com/blog/climategate-imminent-demise-of-glaciers-due-to-a-typo/#comment-459830 J.J. Thu, 03 Dec 2009 19:03:16 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=73536#comment-459830 No one likes to talk about the fact that the Northern Ice Cap has lost so much mass that Shipping companies are planning on capitalizing on the new shipping routes that will be possible during the summer months. A scientific research vessel just reported that a lot of the thick, multi-year ice that was reported by microwaving the icepack via satellite was actually "rotten ice", which is porus and weak, allowing the vessel to travel at almost top speed, 24 km/hr. No one likes to talk about the fact that the Northern Ice Cap has lost so much mass that Shipping companies are planning on capitalizing on the new shipping routes that will be possible during the summer months. A scientific research vessel just reported that a lot of the thick, multi-year ice that was reported by microwaving the icepack via satellite was actually “rotten ice”, which is porus and weak, allowing the vessel to travel at almost top speed, 24 km/hr.

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