Chavez Wins: Venezuela Loses
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez took a chance by asking his people to do away with term limits, giving him license to be their president indefinitely. He won his gamble on Sunday in a 54% – 46% vote.
The victory is worrisome — even more so, the reasons why this vote took place at all.
In 2007, the country rejected an extensive constitutional reform proposal that included eliminating term limits for Chavez, in what represented his first real setback since he came to power in 1998 (with the exception of his brief ousting in 2002).
Following this, Chavez focused all his energies on winning the regional elections of November 2008. He did win them. In his effort to gain a popular majority Chavez did not spare any expense to fuel his populist support, going as far as distributing free washers and refrigerators to his supporters.
Having regained his political balance Chavez boldly moved a week after the November vote, asking for a constitutional amendment to remove term limits.
With initial polling numbers problematic, Chavez was forced to abandon his former position of rejecting removal of term limits for all offices but his. The vote demonstrated that this strategy apparently worked — as did Chavez’s other unpleasant tactics.
The January-February campaign was the most violent Venezuela had seen since Chavez was first elected. The student movement who opposed him was repressed. Chavez went as far as demanding that police “throw tear gas, and of the strong kind” at any student demonstration.
Chavez also used naked blackmail, threatening the country with civil disorder if he was ever forced to relinquish the presidency.
In past months, we Venezuelans have been subjected to the most brutal and heavy-handed campaign we have ever endured in our democratic history, as the government threw all the power of the state behind Chavez, with open political activity in most public buildings. Public employees were required to donate one day’s paycheck to the campaign and attend a variety of political activities during working hours.
The opposition did its best to fight government dominance, but it was essentially penniless following the regional election of 2008. It was also vastly outspent.
“The victory is worrisome – even more so, the reasons why this vote took place at all. ”
That’s the democratic system.
Daniel Duquenal:
In previous votes, whenever Chavez would win you would follow the crowd and cry fraud, writing posts with titles such as: “How the Venezuelan Electoral Fraud took place”. Now, when Chavez wins and others cry fraud, you say, “I do not agree with the fraud part, I think Venezuela is stupid enough to have voted SI”.
What happened? Chavez used to simply fix the election, but now he has to stoop to buying votes and using violence to win. Did someone steal his rigged voting machines?
I guess nobody believed the cries of fraud, so you are going with “plan B” and claiming vote buying and intimidation. Probably a smart move. Nobody fell for the “Black Swan” crap anyway.
“That’s the democratic system”
To bludgeon people with snap elections every few months and step up the threats and violence? Venezuela isn’t exactly Switzerland.
Actually Dave, this time was different. Chavez has been very skillful at figuring out how to game democracy. When he retires he should write a book that should sit on the shelf next to Machiavelli. When you’ve got a swing of about 5%, fraud does just fine. Massive fraud where the majority didn’t vote for you is harder to pull off. Popular opinion turns sour and that leads to divisions in the ranks. Nope, best to attack the causes of why people aren’t voting for you. Instill fear, that’s the ticket. Fear of losing your job if you work for the government (which, Venezuela, being an oil state is a lot of people) or just plain fear (see tear gas, crackdowns on demonstrators and oppo politicians).
It sure doesn’t take much to turn a democracy into a dictatorship. This reads like the 1930s.
Thanks Daniel, you and your kind put quite a fight. Although the oppo lost they have now passed the 5 million mark. Quico has an interesting analysis. The urban-rural split is getting stronger.
As for Dave742, interesting that you put a number at the end of your name. Perhaps only a number should suffice.
1. vivo: the fact that this vote even took place when it did was unconstitutional. I think that’s what Daniel means.
2. dave 742: you clearly haven’t opened up a Venezuelan newspaper in the past few months to see the violence inflicted against those who oppose the government, by the state apparatus. Search “gas del bueno” and I’m sure you’ll see what I mean.
Daniel, thank you for all your work. Your analyses have been unparalleled and your insight invaluable for those of us outside Venezuela.
Not voting Si being a civil servant, you are loosing your job
Not voting Si being a worker in one of the nationalized companies, your are loosing your job
Not voting Si being a supplier or working in one of these supply companies for a state company like PdVSA, you are loosing your job.
Not voting Si being a student on one of the state high schools or universites (and those are not all started under Chavez rule !), you may not come back
Not voting Si being a shopper at Mercal, you may not come back
Not voting a Si being a mother getting free food for your children, you may not come back
…. and there are more excamples like these ones…
How to check the votes is known since the Tascon List …. A lot of civil courage is needed to vote No …
You really want to call this a free choice ?
Democracy, aka mob rule, never has worked and never will. Plato pointed this out quite clearly over 2,000 years ago and nothing much has changed in the interim. The majority of the human herd will continue to be easily manipulated and continue to vote for what they perceive as their own short-term gain.
The “Bolivarian” robolution has been in denial all along, but especially since the oil prices started falling sharply and the NY investment banks began admitting their losses. Dependent entirely on income from the evil capitalilsts, through forex payments for oil or interest payments from the evil bankers (not to mention laundering drug money), they are facing a world of hurt. Rather than figuring out how to cushion Venezuela against the coming hardships, they have chosen to loot the treasury in a bid to keep themselves in power.
So far, the grocery store shelves still hold food, but recalling that above 80% of that food is imported, what will those shelves look like in another month or two with oil prices under $40 barrel?
Denial never works, and the passing of laws is meaningless when one runs up against the laws of Nature, such as the one that says it takes three months from the time a seed is planted until the crop can be harvested. Chavez and his crew would have been much better off taking the $12 billion spent to make things appear rosy during this campaign and putting it into agriculture.
Winning this referendum, fairly or not, means nothing. All their “victory” has accomplished is to make sure that they will be in the hot seat. When people are starving and looking for someone to blame, the “capitalist oligarchs” who apparently make up 46% of Venezuelans will not be the ones being dragged out of their offices and set on fire in the street.
I’m really struggling to understand why a majority of the Venezuelans has voted to be able to do away with term limits on any elected position. Why would anyone want to be able to keep any one person in power indefinitly?
As I understand it, term limits on these positions are in place to help prevent, to a certain extent, the corruption of power, and at the same time, promote renewal of leadership of sorts.
I value accountability, a clear rule of law, justice, social, religious and economic equality for all citizens, a clear and uncorruptable division of executive, legislative and judicial powers. I know some of these values may seem utopian.
One of the things that stike me is that the blatant abuse of power by the government to promote their side in this clearly unconstitutional referendum goes completely unpunished. There seem to be no real checks on the power this government holds and wields with impunity.
Another thing that strikes me is that, as it seems, a majority of the venezuelans are ok with all of this. What kind of mentality do these people have that allows them to sell their freedoms so cheaply? I’m certain that they will not like the price they have to pay once they come to the conclusion that they want these freedoms back.
Anyone care to take a stab at explaining this?
I agree with the article’s title; Chavez wins, venezuela loses(…. for now, I hope)
…so let’s take care of our Republic.
I happen to know that the government had a list of everyone that received a fridge, a house, a medical treatment, etc. and abstained from voting in the last Constitution amendment (that’s why the SI lost)… Now they went house-to-house saying: “You better vote this time or…” Although the opposition said that the vote was secret and nobody would know how you voted, the people were sufficiently scared and knew the government manipulates the information to their own benefit. So don’t be too harsh on your fellowmen… They have lived under an autocracy for ten years now, and haven’t a clue what Democracy means for that reason. The countries in LA that lived dictatorships, had to re-learn the meaning and benefits of liberty…. When you don’t exercise a limb or your brain, it takes a lot of exercise to take it back to normal. Plus, the people have been clearly brainwashed….!!
History repeats.
Chavez is the twenty-first century, latin incarnation of Mosaddeq.
That he is held in such high esteem by the Iranian theocracy is no surprise.
Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely…
Open your eyes, Obama is the next Chavez.
Unions, accorn, public hand outs, Fairness doctrine, nationalization of industries etc etc.
the dems will not loose power for a long while.
sad day
Chavez used whatever he had in the coffers to secure Sunday’s victory. Next in the agenda is a devaluation of the Bolivar.
While the global crises looks to loom for some time, the question for his reelection will depend solely on the state of oil prices. If oil is high, Chavez will have the cash to win and win again.
One day in a none too distant future, Chavez coffers will decrease and so will his hold on power. Whether it is ten or twenty years, the losers will not be Chavez or his cohorts. When the house of cards does come tumbling down, the Chavistas will have accumulated enough cash to live in luxury anywhere in the world. Sadly the only losers will be those poor folk left in Venezuela.
Venezuela simply is lost paradise – a very sad story.
daniel,
your points are excellent and true even when you know that you will likely be defeted it stings. Its like when a dying grandmother of father pass away after a battle with cancer it is still sad. People were afraid and the advantages of the state were large. People complaing about the usa system of two parties but we could use a single structure that could react with more cohesive actions against chavez.
Daniel,
I also think this was not a major election fraud. The ‘pueblo’ was bought because they were willing to be bought. And as you state, that is the most alarming and significant point to ponder.
Having lived in Venezuela for over 20 years, 10 of which were under Chavez, I can hardly beleive that a country can change so quickly, but it can. I almost do not recognize the country I had called home.
Liberty is precious and fragile!Never forget to defend freedom and not take it for granted as so many of us do.
History often repeats itself but never duplicates itself. Bearing that in mind Chávez will need the equivalent of a Reichstag fire shortly in order to marginalize any and all opposition. With the military competing with the residents of the barrios for pieces of the shrinking petro pie it will become increasingly a tightrope act. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
kate:
“you clearly haven’t opened up a Venezuelan newspaper”
I guess you’re talking about this:
foxnews.com/story/0,2933,481026,00.html
The oppposition stages a violent protest, which gets broken up, and then they claim oppression.
Wow. That’s a new tactic. Never heard of that one before.
When illegal violence is used by his supporters, Chavez does not allow it:
iht.com/articles/ap/2009/02/08/news/LT-Venezuela-Referendum-Violence.php
rv:
“I’m really struggling to understand why a majority of the Venezuelans has voted to be able to do away with term limits on any elected position…Anyone care to take a stab at explaining this?”
Many countries other than Venezuela also do not have term limits, such as France, Australia, Italy, Japan, Canada. It’s not that radical of an idea. Many in the US seem to think term limits are anti-democratic:
nytimes.com/2008/10/01/opinion/01wed2.html
Dave742,
Where the hell do you live? I’m from South America, we have had hundreds of Chaveses round here, there is nothing good about him, he’s just a tin-pot populist who is ruining the country. Do you have any idea of how much the criminality grew in the chavista period? 400%. Do you know that Venezuela is now the main center of the drug trade, instead of Colombia? Do you know that poor people are not faring any better, that you only have one elite substituted by another, the friends of Chavez? How can you be so dumb?
It’s enough having so many dumb South Americans voting for this clown, but to have American idiots such as Dave to come and defend Chávez, is really insulting.
Maybe it’s true that democracy is in crisis, if 51% of the people decide to do away with democracy itself, is that fair for the other 49%? I suppose in the mind of people such as David, it is. All that matters is majority rule… To do what, who cares?
Next Dave724 will defend Mugabe, that other great democrat.
Dave742
I take it from your name that it is a progression of -3,-2,-1 etc.
Please learn to use hyperlinks, nobody is going to take the time to type in all that dribble. So, what’s the point of what you are trying to say?
Just image if we didn’t have term limits, we could still have Clinton.
dave742
“Many countries other than Venezuela also do not have term limits, such as France, Australia, Italy, Japan, Canada. It’s not that radical of an idea. Many in the US seem to think term limits are anti-democratic”
So, your explanation is: because they don’t have term linits in some other countries, it’s OK for us as well.
True though it may be, some other countries don’t have term limits for some/all elected officials/positions, none of them concentrate the amount of power into one position as is the case with the Venezuelan presidency.
Also, those countries you mention actually have working checks and balances in place, and solid division between the powers, which does not seem to be the case in Venezuela.
Care to comment or take a stab at my other points?
What’s most charming to me about Dave’s comments (besides using Faux News as a source) is how obvious it is that he countenances oppression as long as he agrees with the oppressor’s goals. How strikingly common that mindset is these days.
As for this inanity:
“Many countries other than Venezuela also do not have term limits, such as France, Australia, Italy, Japan, Canada.”
Someone is either abysmally ignorant or deliberately lying. Assuming the first, a web search for “parliamentary systems” will clear up the confusion.
After being regularly castigated as a wealthy oligarch who hates the poor on US and Canadian “progressive” web sites, and often being called a Chavista on Venezuelan opposition blogs when I dare to point out the corruption of the USA, it does get a bit old sometimes. My loyalty is to the truth and against any form of oppression. By anyone. For any reason. Imagine that.
We used to express sorrow or sympathy towards nations and their people when they succumb to totalitarian dictatorship.
You know what, lets stop it.
Can’t you see that even on this forum they are radical Bolshevik apologists for any scumbag Commie dictator and willing volunteers to support any type of Commie terror.
Venezuela chose Chavez? Good for them: eat cake, let them rot in their own dung like the most Cubans under Castro. Or rise up like did the Hungarians, the Czechs against the Bolshevik goons and Soviet tanks.
Create makeshift rafts and escape by sea. Do something but don’t whine nor complain.
Do we really care about what “vivo” and “dave742″ or other Commie purveyor say? Venezuela, Cuba and others have a nice trip to the bottom of hell, that’s what you wanted that’s what you got: vaya con Dios al inferno y permanezca alli.
Stay in hell.
Dave724 comments are worrisome and uneducated. He reads a few small articles and bases his opinion on that. The tilt of Venezuela toward the east worries me the most. Accepting the Russian fleet to its shores and spending billions of petrodollars on russian arms is a red light. How about the secret flights to Syria and Iran with no tranparency of who is on those flights and a special well guarded airfield to accept those flights. Iran and Russia are now involved in building a nuclear reactor in Venezuela. Now here is the same point as to why Iran needs a nuclear reactor when both countries are awash with oil deposits. If it were light water reactors that did not produce plutonium I would not have a problem except for Chernobyl’s quality. We don’t know what they are planning to build. Hmm! Thugo is courting Evo Morales (Bolivia) and proping him up with “gifts” to support his socialist government as well as Ecuador and thew all the american diplomats and human rights representative out. Now I respect every countries right to buy from whom they chose, but it looks like a cancer spreading to me. On elections, can Dave descibe a “Cadina” or how long they last and how many? Did the opposition get to have cadinas? I won’t go to far into what bribes that happend with the frozen chicken handouts or the appliances. It was so sad to see all the stifiling of the opposition. Sad, really sad.
Well it just goes to show that a lot of people can still demonstrate incredible stupidity. It’s not as if the economy, the state of the nation, security, press freedom etc has “improved” since Dec-07, which might explain the ‘increase’ in support. However, considering that Chavismo is the biggest employer in the land it is equally understandable that many of those “si” voters simply voted that way because they also need to survive; it’s not if the private sector would be able to absorb ex-Chavista employees as well it doesn’t really exist anymore. Regardless, the smelly stuff has yet to hit the fan… economy, oil price etc. Just watch how Chavez “deals’ with the dissenters, strikers etc that are coming his way! All in all a bad day for Venezuela!
LiamSA
Where did you get this information about a nuclear reactor being built in Venezuela? Please elaborate.
..somewhere in the bowels of the White House, second and third tier staff are furiously studying the Venezuelan election…taking vows of silence to never ever express publicly the rapture that envelops them at the thought that this could work in the US…one more Justice and a quickening of the Great Devaluation and the Fairness Doctrine, and presto! “emergency term limit” suspension for the sake of our country…tin-hat conspiracy? I bet its not.
19. dave742
Staging a violent protest? Well, perhaps you would like to be the one to inform my friends down there who got teargassed by the ballenas that it wasn’t really the National Guard, but their fellow students.
You’ve gotta have something better than that in your arsenal of PSFery…
Dropped in for a look, didn’t take long to work out the average mindset of the commentors. Fascists to their bootstraps. Viva Chavez, he has had victory several times and the elections are carried out by ticks on paper unlike the stupid americans who are so stupid they let their wiz bang digital push button system con them several times over.
Chavez was voted in overwhelmingly by the masses of poor who were down trodden by capitalistic crap minority for years. He is loved by the poor and does right by them, that’s why he won. Get over it you greedy grasping freaks!
Oscar the Grump,
as you requested,
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,429441,00.html – 42k
Or simply hit the google page and type in “Venezuela nuclear” and there is a wealth of info to read up on.
Oscar the Grump:
“Please learn to use hyperlinks, nobody is going to take the time to type in all that dribble.”
Ever heard of “cut and paste”? If you put in too many hyperlinks, posts never get through.
Rv:
“a web search for ‘parliamentary systems’ will clear up the confusion.”
The arguments that say it’s OK for parliamentary systems to not have term limits and it isn’t for presiential systems are lame, IMO, but I am not in the mood to debate it. Besides, I don’t have to. Why? Answer = France. Is France a dictatorship? Was the US a dictatorship before the 22md amendment? I didn’t know!
My sincere condolences to the freedom-aspiring in Venezuela. This is a setback, hopefully not a death-knell (dong!)
Be of good cheer, and consider your alternatives, for which there are lots of precedents.
Totalitarian democracy.
I am am just as good or better than the Oracle of Delphi.
I foretold in several tread that the Bolshevik (Communist) takeover is just around the corner: you’d better study those events that led to the 1919 Russian revolution. Latin America is finished it will be run by semi illiterate thugocracy and Castro type purges, killings…the Spanish version of Tonton Macoute of Haiti will be the order of the day. All will fall like dominoes one after the other.
As “Old Timer” poster said capitalist crap will be abolished and from that point on Soviet type destruction and economical collapse will follow.
Be prepared: the same forces will attempt to achieve identical power grab in the US too and your religious creed in the Constitution and other democratic institution will not protect you because those pillars will be discarded by the mob in no time.
So can the opposition call for another referendum to overturn this vote? seeing as Chavez was able to?
Dave 742
In the broadest sense, a fraud is a deception made for personal gain.
Through intimidation, threats, lies, suppression of the media,bribes, and a host of other methods, Chavez committed fraud before the election even began.He is a com artist and control freak.
Many members of my family voted for him because though they hate him, they are afraid he will find out their votes and take away their jobs.
His image to many is one of a demi God, on the order of the wrathful type.
Maybe dave742 would like to come and live in Venezuela and experience the repression, crime and poverty first hand? No? thought not. He is too comfortable living in a free country.
There is no benefit system here for mothers with children, the unemployed, etc. Instead hundreds of millions of dollars are given away to other countries. Hopefully with the number of malandros in Caracas, one of them well get a lucky shot at his head…..
I’m so sorry for the Venezuelan people.
Old Timer-
Venezuelan elections are done with paper ballots? Whooo-eee. Aren’t you well informed.
Hey, there’s a really good video you should watch, bring you right up to date. It’s called “The Revolution Will Not Be Televised”. That is all you will ever need to know about Venezuela, right there in that up-to-date video.
Actually, that’s what every day is like for us here in Venezuela. Get up in the morning, put on our red shirts, go downtown and cheer for Chavez, go pick up our free chicken and bottle of rum, then it’s back home to put our feet up and watch a cadena. Life is good.
m_astera:
My response to the following:
“a web search for ‘parliamentary systems’ will clear up the confusion.”
is above. I accidentally addressed it to Rv.
Dillis:
“He is too comfortable living in a free country.”
Actually, we also live in a dictatorship where elected officals try to change the laws to allow third terms:
wcbstv.com/local/bloomberg.third.term.2.834260.html
nytimes.com/2008/10/01/nyregion/01support.html
I guess I know how you feel.
Dave742, trust me, you have no idea what it is like down here since Chavez took over!
There is no law on the streets. 2 men with guns broke into our apartment complex friday night (10pm!). There are no prosecutions anymore, it’s easy to repress the people when they have fear to even go out their home!
Sounds like you are not happy under Obama?
Dave742 would have loved to vote for Chavez. However, he does not love Chavez enough to vote with his feet and move to Venezuela. Socialist paradises are best worshiped from a distance, as the closer you get to them the more their oppressive stench overwhelms.
Just like the affluent Fidelistas here in the West who when informed that Cuba ranks around 170th out of 210 countries in Internet access per capita: reply thusly: “Cuba does not have materialist goals.” Just try taking away THEIR Internet access. ( As a measure of how Cuba has slipped: in the 1950s it ranked 5th in the world in TV’s per capita.)
fortunately i dont have to rely on the media’s analysis of chavez and venezuala … i have traveled there many times before he came into power and many times since. i can say this with all the certainity at my command … for the poor and the working class, Chavez and his policies have helped them without a doubt. public education and health care coupled with employment opportunites are just a few of the changes for the better. now for the rich … nope chavez hasnt done much for them … sorry, i cant work up much sympathy for their plight.
the incessant whine from america’s right wing about the growing populism in venezuala and other south america countries is really rather trite and self serving. america has had the opportunity to work with more progressive latin leaders but somehow always finds a way to support the status-quo because of out dated logic. as it is in america … if the right wing wants to make a comeback they have to find a way to reconnect with the working and poor classes in an equitable and just manner. pseudo coups, like the one against Chavez, funded by america will not work.
44. traveler:
Pajamers: this guy (or lady) is telling you the exact situation of Venezuela. Pay attention!
I could add that most Americans (Dems & Reps) who travel to Latin America or work there associate mostly with the upper echelons. They rarely have contact with the majority of the countries, the poor masses, so they only have one perspective. I don’t blame them, it’s easier, more compatible and more comfortable. The problems of the masses seem UNSOLVABLE, partly because the cultures are different. So people like Chavez, Evo and others take charge and do what they think it’s right, right or wrong under your eyes.
vivo:
“They rarely have contact with the majority of the countries”
This is indeed a problem, which is why they should form no opinion at all.
What do foreigners know about us really ? Nothing.Which is why interference is more harmful than good.
Especially this kind of propaganda influence that is highly partisan and espouses ideas that have nothing to do with reality like in most cases.
The fact that we have many poor, does not in any way mean that you know its sources well and/or that a president who uses helping the poor as a slogan means that he is really helping.
Do not be gullible.
Vivo:
I could add that most Americans (Dems & Reps) who travel to Latin America or work there associate mostly with the upper echelons. They rarely have contact with the majority of the countries, the poor masses, so they only have one perspective.
That may be the case for some, but not for me. In my work in Latin America, I interacted with and supervised working class crews. I have spent nights at a hacienda and also at huts with neither electricity nor running water. I acquired some basics of several Indian/Indigenous languages. I have spent much more time in houses with cement floors and wood stoves than I have in $50 hotels.
Those who believe that Chavez will solve the problems of the poor are simply showing their ignorance of Latin America. Juan Domingo Peron. Velasco. Fidel. When all is said and done, all the man on horseback does is amass power for himself, leaving others powerless.
“Vivo” is an interesting screen name, as in some countries in Latin America “vivo” is a slang term for a con man.
The fact that Chavez helps the poor is pure rhetoric. Yes there has been a little help with regards to education and hospitals. But when you consider the billions of dollars from oil revenue over the years, where does it all go? To Cuba, Argentina, Nicaragua, Iran, Ecuador, Bolivia, etc. Even Sean Penn and Maradona have come over for their handouts.
It could have gone on building homes for the poor people. On social security, to the unemployed, women with children that can not even find milk sometimes.
Chavez and his cronies are in it for the money and power. Yes we know he came from a humble background in Barinas and has a lot of resentment against half the population, but that is no way to run a country. Ok the opposition for many years have not paid enough attention to the poor, but after suffering many years of Chavez i am sure this will change.
As others have said, all commies that live in Europe and North America can move to Cuba or 23 de Enero, Caracas and practice what they preach!
First off Chavez is suffering from LMD.
What is LMD?
Little Man’s Disease.
We’ve all seen that man before in many other names.
Napoleon & Hitler are two of the most infamous.
I fear this will come to a bad end for the Venezuelan peoples.
His friends from Cuba and Zimbabwe have done wonders for their country.
Cuba is still driving the cars from the prerevolution days.
Rhodesia the former breadbasket of Africa now piss in their own drinking water and starve.
If their were any real men in Venezuela who had their chance they would eliminate this threat
to their countries future.
Re: 44. traveler
fortunately i dont have to rely on the media’s analysis of chavez and venezuala … i have traveled there many times before he came into power and many times since. i can say this with all the certainity at my command … for the poor and the working class, Chavez and his policies have helped them without a doubt.
I call bullshit, you can’t even spell the name of the country, it’s “Venezuela”, not “venezuala”. I doubt you’ve ever been to the country, much less had any contact with the “poor” there.
As to what Chavez did, was to give handouts to the poor (in earlier times this would be called “buying votes”) and bring Cuban doctors to treat people – that is, giving jobs to foreigners instead to local doctors, great. Violence increased, middle class shrunk and the poor are still poor. Next, when the economy crashes, it’s going to be even worse.
What is it that some stupid leader need only say “it’s for the good of the poor people”, and everything is permitted? Even if Chavez was actually “good for the poor”, does it allow him to kill students of the opposition, censure TV and newspapers, destroy private property, intimidate voters, and to remain eternally in power?
Why is it that people like Dave724 and vivo are so blind? Why don’t they move to Venezuela (or “venezuala”) if it’s so nice? There’s lots of people who would be very glad to change places with them.
I’m tired of these socialist busybodies telling people how they should live their lives, ad why more government is good for you, and why an eternal presidency is actually “more democratic”. Go to hell.
I enjoy reading a mention now and again about Rhodesia. Few recall the adoring articles in Newsweek and TIME, as Rhodesia was being transformed into Zimbabwe where ‘Change’ and ‘Hope’ were being touted by ‘Their Savior’, Robert Mugabe. Well the farms are all distributed to ‘the people’ and they no longer are able to feed themselves, let alone export produce as was common in prosperous Rhodesia.
In a sadistic, bloodthirsty way the Dutch farmers that sucessfully managed the highly productive farms, were all massacred. They are now viewing the disaster wrought by the worlds socio-communists. From a balcony. They are saying, “We told You so”, as yet one more laboratory experiment of the Leftists, has failed. Welcome to Venezuela, sadly yet another laboratory experiment in the dismal history of ‘Equality’. Survival in Nature does not honor ‘equality’ any more than a sucessful, multi-tiered economy should. “The Lion will one day, lie down with the Lamb”, but definetly not in secular humanistic society. ‘DaFlikkers’
47. Gringo:
“most Americans (Dems & Reps) who travel to Latin America or work there associate mostly with the upper echelons.
“Vivo” is an interesting screen name, as in some countries in Latin America “vivo” is a slang term for a con man.”
I know there are great Americans like you doing great things in Latin America. That’s why I wrote “most Americans”.
I forgot about that “vivo” slang. I didn’t intend to mean it that way. It’s just a word that popped in my mind.
50. Heh:
You misread what I wrote. Slow down . . .
Vivo: my dislike of Chavez is founded on my knowledge – both book learning and direct experience- of Latin America. Chavez is simply another example of the man on horseback. The man on horseback leaves office, as all must eventually, with the nation worse off than when he assumed office. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Fidel may be a fountain of knowledge about Ubre Blanca, but under Fidel’s control, milk production(page8) increased only 11% from 1958 to 1996, compared with 266% for pre-Chavista Venezuela. Yet Chavez says this about Fidel: “If we had to name a president of the world with enough powers to set it right, it would be Fidel. I believe in one decade he could set the world right.” ( my translation ) Yeah, right. Considering how agriculture has fared under Chavez, one can say that Chavez is following in Fidel’s footsteps. Increased control in the hands of one person leads ultimately to disaster. Venezuela has been following down that path for ten years, having forgotten its pre-1958 history.
I forgot about that “vivo” slang. I didn’t intend to mean it that way. It’s just a word that popped in my mind.
The FIRST thing that pops into my mind when I hear “vivo” is the con man connotation.
Be that as it may, Venezuelans voted in a golpista as president in 1998. They voted for him several days ago, and they got him. When the goodies dry up this year, some may ponder on their vote of several days ago. Some may accept Chavez’s scapegoating the pitiyanquis. Some may not.
If it hasn’t occured to most people here, no matter what you think of Chavez, he is rather par for South America, was elected by the people there and is not our mortal enemy. Yet some people here are fulminating for war or something short of that.
Horace Wells:
If it hasn’t occured to most people here, no matter what you think of Chavez, he is rather par for South America, was elected by the people there and is not our mortal enemy. Yet some people here are fulminating for war or something short of that.
Whether or not the US considers Chavez an enemy, Chavez considers the US an enemy. Recall his “stench of sulfur” speech at the UN. Recall his “Yanqui de mierda” (Shitty Yankee) rant.It’s on YouTube. The response from the US has actually been rather low-key. In short, anyone who does not agree 100% with Chavez,Chavez considers an enemy.
“Fulminating for war or something like that”: please document.
I would suggest that you learn more about Venezuela. Daniel’s blog is a good resource, as is Devil’s Excrement and Caracas Chronicles. Caracas Chronicles has a good introduction to Venezuela in its Beginner’s Guide to the Chavez Era.
I leave with exchanges between Chavez and some of his allies.
“You are and always will be a true freedom warrior.”
-Chávez on Mugabe
“I feel I have met a brother and trench mate after meeting Chávez.”
–Ahmadinejad on Chávez
“…a friend and brother.”
–Chávez on Qaddafi
“We have the same political vision.”
-Chavez on Bashar Al-Assad.
Mr. Wells, I might add that while some Americans may view Venezuela with indifference, I cannot, as I have worked with Venezuelans in the US and in Venezuela.
Chavez Wins: Venezuela Loses
yyyyyyyyyeah!
american propaganda rockz!
let’s go for 4th reich bwoys.
honestly, you suck, you uninformed, unintellectual stupid bastards
To: Yannick
Are you saying that you can look at Chavez and think he is good? You don’t have to like this scum bag to not like America or Bush or whatever. Can’t you have the courage to hold them all in disdain if you must and just TRY to be a little more independent? Or do you really think that Chavez is even remotely a decent human being?
Yannick is some dumb partisan thinking he/she knows anything about Venezuela.
Far left partisan comments don’t help us down here, and Yannick perhaps sums up the vocabulary of those we shouldn’t take seriously. Infact it sounds rather like Chavez speaking about America with his regular attacks in public to his sheep….
My advice to Yannick is stick to Media Matters or Granma in Cuba and carry on lecturing about how everyone else should live under Communism (but not Yannick of course, or those in Hollywood).
‘It’s alright for thee, but not for me!!’