That war, like the war in 1967 and 1973, is over. Wasting time re-fighting it under the guise of a historical discussion only wastes time.

The goals of Zionism – and the Zionists – were partly realized in 1948, and fully realized in 1967. But the Zionists couldn’t figure out what to do with the victory of 1967, and have been going back on their goals since then. This is why we see the immoral and treasonous policies of the Israeli government today. They have been bought out by forces in the world hostile to Jews and a Jewish Entity and they work like a judenrat, serving the American State Department and the European Union.

“Zionism” is a rotting corpse, and the expulsions of Gush Qatíf, ‘Amóna, and further planned expulsions of Jews from Judea and Samaria, like from Giv’át haRo’é, a few kilometers from where I live, only spread the stink of the corpse further.

The Jewish people have outgrown Zionism, and it is time to move to the next stage – Redemption.

For the moment, the folks at Z Street have trouble seeing that. So, I give them support, rather than criticism. But their goals have to do with resuscitating what the Zionist regime has been busy killing off in Jews – PRIDE.

The folks at Z Street have their work cut out for them. The Arab-supported traitors at J Street have been doing the work of the enemy, and are well paid for their efforts. The folks at Z Street have to discredit them, and expose the Arab money trying to stick the knife in the Jewish back, with the help of self-hating Jews.

They have to expose the money trail at “Peace Now” and its “American Friends”, the money trail leading to who funds the “Israel Committee Against House Demolitions” run by Jeff Halper, the money trail of the New Israel Fund.

That’s their job.

As for the Arabs, they demonstratesd their savagery three times over the period of one week in my own neighborhood. On 12 August, Arab gunman from the “al-Aqsa Brigade” shot at a vehicle traveling between Giv’át haRo’é and Ma’alé Levoná. They wounded the passengers in the vehicle.

Yesterday, there were two rock throwing incidents where Arabs attempted to wound or kill Israeli drivers – the first one occurred on Highway 60 near Túrmus Aiye, across the way from Ma’alé Levoná. The second, which injured the passengers, struck a patrol vehicle approaching Ma’alé Levoná.

Elsewhere in the country, Arabs further displayed their savagery, murdering a man and attempting to beat up his wife and daughter at a Tel Aviv beach. In citing these incidents, I barely scratch the surface of Arab murderousness and hostility towards Jews in Israel. You can whine from overseas about the assignation of “collective guilt”. But this murderousness and hatred is in my face, day after day after day.

smear an entire group of people as “savages” because of the acts of a few?

What few? The “few” is a whole crowd, cheering when Jews die and dancing in the streets, handing out candy and sweets. That is what the hatred the Wahhabi-influenced scum who lead these people have accomplished over several generations.

And I stand by my point about arabs being forced to leave their land. Zionists simply lose all credibility when they say the arabs left voluntarily. Maybe a few did, but certainly not most and definitely not all of them. To be frank, I don’t even know how a reasonable person can argue that they left willingly and keep a straight face.

I would respect the zionist movement much more if it simply argued that “we did it (kicked arabs out) because we thought we had to do it and it’s unfortunate that it had to be that way but there was no other way and that’s just that” as opposed to just lying about it. I’m not proud of America’s historical treatment of Native Americans but I don’t try to pretend it didn’t happen (and I’m also not planning to give the land back any time soon–so don’t think I see this as a reason that Israel should allow a “right of return” or anything else like that).

My overall point is simply that we could use a bit less historical whitewashing in this discussion (and as an aside, a bit less racism as well–I don’t think it is acceptable in the modern world to smear an entire group of people as “savages” because of the acts of a few–if any group should be sensitive to the danger and immorality of “collective guilt,” it should be the Jews).

the tactics used by the Jews to get their way were not so different than the tactics used by terrorists today….

There was a distinct difference and the bombing of the King David Hotel provides the perfect example. The terrorists called the hotel to warn them to get people out of the hotel – that there would be an explosion. Nobody listened – scores died.

Very different from the shootings in Jerusalem in the midst of the rush hour – the bombs blowing up a seder or nightclubs or restaurants.
And finally, very different from tearing a child apart bone from bone in a cave like they did to Kobi Mandell and his friend.

The Arabs have proven by their own behavior that they have barely risen above the level of savages. Joe, you do not want to attempt to anwser for these savages. The task is too great for you.

what I meant by that statement is that the tactics used by the Jews to get their way were not so different than the tactics used by terrorists today (for example, please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing).

In other words Calvin, we do not need folks preaching their religion to us, making their support conditional on their demands (particularly religious demands), or folks who expect us to do what is patently immoral to get their support.

As for all those individuals who support us – for whatever reason – we should welcome them to our ranks as supporters – so long as they support us on OUR TERMS.

Whatever that means.

Lori,

I disagree with all of your three ‘no’s.

All of the things you mentioned, negotiation, concessions, and compromise, are the essential tools of political statecraft. These are the folks who keep the casualties down. They are… (please dont make me quote von clausewitz or Sun Tzu).

Spindok misses an essential point, one that cannot be ignored, one that I bring up for Lori to note, and for Spindok to remember.

Both el-FataH and Hamas get their ideological bases from the Egyptian branch of the Moslem Brotherhood – which has been under Wahhabi control and influence for a mere 80 years or so. The basic concept of the Wahhabi is very simple – “it’s my way or your head goes on the chopping block”. This applies to Moslems as it does to EVERYBODY ELSE ON THE PLANET. So there is no chance of negotiating any kind of peace with either. Hamas believes in kill first and loot later; el-FataH believes in loot first and kill later. This is why the corrupt and treasonous Israeli politicians who cut deals with el-FataH at Oslo were able to do so. El-FataH wanted to loot the Israelis first and kill them later. That is also why the Israeli government is so opposed to Hamas. Hamas won’t cut any money-making deals. The “Zionist” leadership of Israel is thoroughly corrupted and has no interest in safety of Jews. The lot of them are traitors and deserve the hanging rope.

So, you can stuff von Clausewitz and Sun Tzu in the trash can in this endeavor. All of the Arab leaders of the PA must die. There can be NO peace with them, NO negotiations with them, and certainly NO concessions to them. The Germans were not out to kill all the Frenchmen in 1871, the French were not out to kill all the Austrians in 1807, etc. etc. This does not apply to the Wahhabi pigs who lead (and mislead) the Arabs living in Eretz Yisrael. They want us all dead. Further, THIS pack of Jewish traitors does not deserve the chance to govern any further. But that is a problem for us in Israel to attend to, not for foreigners to worry themselves over.

I agree with all she wishes to do. But none of this is Zionism.

Zionism originated with English Calvinists who studied the prophetic works of the Tana”kh and who figured out the theme of return to Eretz Yisrael written by the prophets, and who gave this concept a name – “Zionism”. The first Zionists were not Jews at all – they were Christians.

When Jews finally got hold of the idea at the end of the 1800′s under the name “Zionism” they were secular in orientation, and wanted to create a German speaking entity in Israel under Turkish suzerainty – but under European protection. To the non-Jew, this looked like a colonial enterprise. The the Jew, especially the Jew suffering in Russia, this was rescue.

In any event, Zionism postulated a secular Jewish state that would be like all other states in the world, and be recognized as such. The Zionists where successful in getting the Jewish state. They have not been successful in getting the world’s recognition of that state.

They won’t be. The world will never recognize the right of a Jew to live in peace in his own home. Therefore, it is time for us Jews to move on from Zionism to fulfilling our destiny – Redemption of our People. As for what the rest of the world thinks, as to the governments who will not let us live in peace – they can all burn in hell. We do not need them – they need us. As for all those individuals who support us – for whatever reason – we should welcome them to our ranks as supporters – so long as they support us on OUR TERMS.

Yes, the term Zionist has been demonized and turned on its head. Zionism has been realized, the question now, is how to sustain it.

American survival depends upon a certain rejection of the ethnic/religious state. Israel depends upon acceptance of that same distinction for its very existence.

Peace is, of course, the goal. Nobody wants to do what Israelis now must do to sustain the state of perpetual war.

Better to grow banannas and dates, think up better cancer drugs or computer technology, etc.

A water based – simple basic H2O solution – would be really great. Security has as much to do with that as rockets there, maybe more so. Look at what is happening now on the Lebanon border. It is all about the Jordan headwaters.

So have you been in the River Jordan lately? River? We call that a creek or stream in Ohio. The Dead Sea where the little remaing water is pumped from one side to the other?
Anyway…

There is something to be said for the ‘peaceniks’ in terms of their goals even if particular tactics and timing have resulted in catastrophe.

There are in fact Arab non-Jews, mostly Muslim, some Christian, who hail from the same place and are equally as dedicated. Let us just call them ‘Palestinian’ arabs since there is no better term that I know of. To be Arab is not the same as Jew.

We Jews tend to accept the Ethiopian, French, or New Jersey Jew as an equal with same partnership. Not exactly so when we are dealing with the broad classification of Arab.

There are many and nobody is going to ‘wipe them out’ or any such nonsense. They are unhappy and how many more Gilad Shalits do we need?

Lori,

I disagree with all of your three ‘no’s.

All of the things you mentioned, negotiation, concessions, and compromise, are the essential tools of political statecraft. These are the folks who keep the casualties down. They are… (please dont make me quote von clausewitz or Sun Tzu).

So let us still pause at the terrible consequence and hope for a better day. ‘Beser a schlechter shalom vi a guten krieg’ (yiddish)

A bad peace is better than a good war.

Shalom,

Spindok

There is so much bad energy(aka Dr. Ezekiel Emmanuel) in NYC these days, one can sense the progressive Liberals life-long Democrat-voting icky vibes all over the place.