Can the U.S. Navy Cope with Iranian Mines?
The USS Ponce, a lightly armed and slow-moving amphibious transport dock built in 1970, is about to be upgraded by the U.S. Navy. According to The Washington Post, it will become a forward staging base aimed at Iran.
Navy specifications published in Federal Business Opportunities indicate that the refurbished ship will carry 370 personnel, plus four video teleconferencing centers each capable of holding 25 staff and an operations center of 20. It will be loaded with 10,000 gallons of extra fuel for helicopters, and store weapons and ammunition. The ship itself has only a couple of small guns — a CIWS Phalanx gun (with an old and ineffective sensor) and a machine gun — neither of which can challenge an incoming missile.
Why anyone would want to float nearly 400 people and a gazillion gallons of flammable liquid on an indefensible bucket in the world’s most hostile waterway is unclear, but three possibilities exist: staging SEAL attacks; meeting “local” surface threats; and minesweeping. The Obama administration denies the first, and the Ponce is optimal for none. Under the Navy’s specs, the Ponce is optimal only for becoming a very large fireball.
The Navy proposal includes adding cranes to raise and lower riverine command boats and 4 Zodiac RIBs (Rubber Inflatable Boats) which are typically used for SEAL-type missions – hence the belief that the Ponce will become a platform for SEAL missions. But SEAL missions, at least in theory, are surprise affairs that catch the target unawares. Any mission launched from an old, slow boat like the Ponce would be instantly known.
It could be that the SEALS will be used to go after local surface threats, which are anticipated mainly to be heavily armed Iranian fast patrol boats attacking oil tankers. The theory is that the SEALS would chase the patrol boats or, if necessary, capture them. This requires both capability and political will.
The Iranian fast patrol boats are well armed and numerous. Would the SEALS be authorized to fire warning shots or to take other aggressive action against them? It is one thing to rush out to meet what looks like a fishing boat but might be a vessel with al-Qaeda operatives or other terrorists, or a vessel stuffed with explosives like the one that hit the USS Cole; it is another to pick a fight with a warship.
In 2007, two RIBs manned by 15 British sailors and Marines dispatched from the British frigate HMS Cornwall were challenged by the crews of two Iranian fast patrol boats. The British did not resist. They were taken captive and held for 13 days before the Iranian government released them. Had the British fired on the Iranians, it is not clear that they would have survived to be captured.
Would American RIB boats or crews do better or fare better?
In addition, the Ponce is not the Cornwall; the Iranians weren’t about to take on a serious fighting ship. But in our case, the SEALs would also have to protect the Ponce, which is ill-equipped to defend itself. But RIB boats cannot do both missions. Iranian patrol ships are equipped with Chinese C-802 anti-ship missiles and torpedoes that could make short, explosive work of the Ponce and its crew.
So, if it isn’t a launch ship for covert action and it isn’t a response to local surface threats, what about anti-mine operations? The likely mission for the Ponce would be responding to Iran’s threat to mine the Strait of Hormuz and prevent oil tankers from passing through the Gulf.
The Navy probably plans to use the four MH-53 helicopters supported from the Ponce flight deck in counter-mine operations. Unfortunately, the MH-53 is old and has an aging mine sweeping capability. It will be hard pressed to do the job, and if it fails, there will be oil tankers burning in the vital and narrow Strait.
Sure we can cope with them. The easiest way to do that is by NOT TRYING TO START A WAR WITH THEM!
TA-DA! Problem solved.
Iran declared war on us in 1979. They’ve been fighting that war and killing our people ever since. We’ve just never had the balls to fight back.
Plenty of terrorists grow up there, but who has the Iranian government killed since 1979?
More to the point, what is all of this about? I know the lie very well now, but I just don’t understand the purpose.
Well, if you get your dates correct, it’s all very clear. It’s not 1970, it’s AD 600 or so (roughly).
We are at war with Islam. Or rather, Islam is at war with us. “Us” being, everyone who is not Islamic.
This war takes many forms, not all of which are obviously war. The Saudis, for example, make economic war with us. Pakistan fights us in other ways. There are many players and many methods, but one motive.
Jihad.
You can pretend it’s not so, but that will not keep you off of the “Soon to be beheaded” list.
If that’s all it is, I shall relax. There are bigger questions about ETs, Lake Vostok, and other mysteries. I only pray they don’t overlap with the stuff in Iran.
Great idea. What do we care about the Persian Gulf? None of our business if the Iranians mine the Strait of Hormuz and bottle up the oil tankers. It’s, like, all the way on the other side of the world. Let the Brits handle it if they’re so keen.
Like the US, the Brits have dismantled much of their navy.
Then let the oil exporters Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Koweit, Baheirein, UAE blow the Iranians out of the sea for spoiling their goods.
Can’t they do that ? What the hell they do with all those Petrodollars.
With apologies to some dimly remembered movie…
Your ignorance is 4 kinds of bad: long, deep, wide, and often.
We depend on that oil, like it or not. If it were not vital to us Iran would not be rattling sabers about it. The other Arab nations are not going to go to war with Iran over it. Did you forget that THEY are buddies and view US as the enemy?
Or are you one of those foolish Paulbots (but I repeat myself) who thinks they will all just love us if we just get out of the mid-east?
Then why do we have 11 aircraft carrier groups? If Iran mines international waters that is a declaration of war and a redline the U.S. will not tolerate. I imagine a deadline to remove the mines would be offered or “mines” coming down from the sky. Let the Iranians sweep their own mines.
/sarc.
I thought so Bugs, but, after a reading under Mike’s comment, I must admit I wasn’t sure. Glad you made the effort to be clear.
Yep, for sure, the Ponce is slow, old, etc. On the other hand, it also is armed with 8 .50-caliber machine guns and 2 20-mm Phalanx anti-missile mounts. In short, for Iranian patrol boats to come a-knocking might not be the path of wisdom. And the problem with the British who got captured was with their rules of engagement – they were forbidden to defend themselves. I would certainly hope that our people would go in with more sensible ROEs.
Why send this bucket in? I’m reminded of just before World War One, when the French Marshal Foch was asked how many English soldiers he needed in event of war. Just one, he said, and I’ll make sure he gets killed. “Remember the Ponce!”, anyone?
except of course that the Iranians have weapons on those patrol boats that have far longer range than those .50cals or Phalanx (and the version of Phalanx mounted is incapable of taking on a barrage of incoming missiles, it can’t handle more than 1-2 at a time).
So the ship will be the proverbial sitting duck. This could be deliberate of course, an attempt by the USN to entice the Iranians in taking overt military action by sinking the ship, thus giving an excuse for US air and naval strikes against Iranian installations (which would of course include their nuclear facilities), but I doubt it.
It seems far more to be a reversal to the old idea that anyone else is a medieval barbarian who can’t harm you anyway so why “waste” your good equipment on them, an idea that’s been disproven time and time again at the cost of a great number of lives.
No American surface ships are going to operate on any kind of a war footing without air cover and support from other naval vessels. Pondering this kind of action as if it will occur in a vacuum is pointless.
Do you remember the PUEBLO? No sea coverage. No air coverage. One crewman killed in action, many wounded, all captured, many tortured. The USS Pueblo is the only active duty US Navy ship still held by the enemy, since 1968.
We don’t have the leadership to take on the Iranians, in the White House or the JCS, etc.
The only way to stop a “swarm” missile attack is to use either a fleshet-type artillery shell (barrage) or large pellet-bombs that would completely blanket a wide area in which the enemy’s missiles were coming. Still, other than using a small nuclear blast to clear the air, some would still get through, esp. if the Iranians launched all their small and medium boats, armed with cruise missiles and the bigger ship-sinking Silkworms, etc.
Also, they might use stand-off aircraft to launch missiles.
The problem is how to defeat hundreds of incoming missiles within a fire minutes of detection so that none get thru. One powerful missile can wreck your day, and your ship.
There is also the eletromagnetic pulse aspect of warfare against missiles, which no one has mentioned.
The sub-title, “Well, we don’t have any minesweepers…” is horribly inaccurate. The US Navy has 14 Avenger class mine counter measure (MCM) ships in the fleet. I doubt the Ponce will be a mine counter measure platform. What is more likely is that the Navy would use MCMs and Seahawks to de-mine the Gulf.
If you’d actually read the article, you’d have known that the Avenger MCM vessels were scrapped 5 years ago with no replacement.
The author of the post, Mr. Bryen, is the president of a lobbying firm (sorry: “Defense and Homeland Security Marketing Experts”). It would be interesting to know which of the firm’s clients is being promoted here. The government/lobbyist merry-go-round is alive and well!
That’s funny, cuz the U.S.S. Avenger’s web page doesn’t say anything about her being scrapped.
http://www.avenger.navy.mil/
No, the article is talking about the scrapping of the Ospreys, not the Avengers.
Not that that gets Rumsfeld and Gates off the hook for junking the Ospreys.
J.T. Wenting, I don’t need to read the article to know that the Navy still has MCMs in the fleet. Just because you are ignorant of the facts doesn’t mean that I am. Being snarky doesn’t make you smart either.
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=4200&tid=1900&ct=4
As you can see from the U.S. Navy’s website, they have multiple MCMs stationed in the Persian Gulf. These ships are permanently based there. Also, the MCM crews rotate between ships. Being forward deployed and manned with rotational crews means these ships are in the water a lot.
Another commenter pointed out that there are multiple anti-mine warfare platforms and capabilities within the U.S. Navy. USS PONCE might have some anti-mine capabilities but so do a lot of other platforms. Having multi-mission capabilities is common for U.S. Navy units.
This is one of the dirty little secrets of the US Navy. There are a lot of ships that are very important and practical, such as the Osprey, but don’t get funding because they are not considered “sexy” enough for the blue-water faction in the US Navy. They are not as glamorous as frigates or destroyers, they are not as huge as carriers, but they still are important and necessary for any country that wants to project power overseas. So when budgets get cut, the workhorses of the fleet usually are the first to go. The Navy knows that helicopters can’t do this job the right way and that mine sweepers and mine hunters are desperately needed. Many times, the US Navy has relied on mine hunters from other navies, primarily from NATO fleets. Unlike us, the other NATO navies know the value of mine hunters and have a large number of them. Problem is, they are not part of the US Navy, which is where they are needed.
With the big reductions that are coming down the road under the Obama administration, the Navy has been trying to hold on to as many carriers, destroyers, frigates, littoral combat ships, and submarines as possible. Too bad all of the other ships that make a well-rounded navy, such as mine hunters, mine sweepers, and amphibious warfare ships, not only get a low priority, but are being discarded as well. Just remember that during the “Tanker Wars” of the 1980s, Iran made extensive use of mines. There is no reason they will not do so again. And when they do, it will be our own fault that we’re not prepared for it.
You mean that great military mind of Obama does not understand all this and more, heck I thought with all his vast experience and leadership capabilities as well as great honesty on top of all his other superior qualities he would figure something like this out!
Er, so what about those Avenger class ships then? Sure look like minesweepers to me…sounds like the author of the article just doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
Glad you mentioned them, Jeremy. We need BOTH minesweepers AND mine hunters. And a lot of them. If you look at the breakdown that the US Navy has regarding these ships, four of them are based in Bahrain. Four. You can see the breakdown here: http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=4200&tid=1900&ct=4
If we get in a real shooting war with the Iranians, the minesweepers are going to be prime targets. Plus it would take four ships (not all of which are ever available at the same time) an enourmous amount of time to clear mines in both the Straits of Hormuz AND the Persian Gulf. The closest we ever came to a real shooting naval war with the Iranians was during the “Tanker Wars” in the 1980s. They learned a lot from that experience and are much better prepared to give us a hard time in the Gulf. The question is, are we ready to stop them? We are going to need a lot more assets than four minesweepers that also have to double up as mine hunters. We really are courting disaster if we don’t get more mine warfare assets in the Gulf real soon.
If we get into a “real” shooting war with Iran, their navy, air force, and ports would be demolished in less than a week. Their gas refinery would be knocked off line and all gas imports would be cut off. Their economy would come to a grinding halt when the flow of fuel is cut off.
The Iranians are not going to do anything to actually disrupt the flow of oil through the Straits of Hormuz. They will posture and threaten action but this is typical rhetoric coming from a despotic regime. The Iranians know that the West needs cheap oil, they also know that fighting a full frontal war with the West is foolish, however if they can cause the price of oil to rise by saber rattling, then they will do that to hurt the West. The Iranians have been financing non-government entities to fight an unconventional battle against the West for about 40 years. They know they don’t have the capabilities to fight the U.S. straight up, so unless the Ayatollah somehow goes mad, they will continue to fight proxy wars with the West and work to gain influence in other Islamic countries to consolidate their power.
The point is that the U.S. absolutely has the capabilities to counter or destroy any Iranian aggressions. And that the Iranians will not do anything to start a shooting war with the U.S, right now.
On April 18, 1988 the US and Iran did get in a “shooting” war, when during Operation Preying Mantis the Sahand shot an RGM-84 (Harpoon) at the USS Wainwright. The shooting was over less than a few hours later when the Sahand & Joshan were both sunk. Iran might want to talk a good game, but when the rubber hits the road, they are no match for a single carrier strike group, let alone a coordinated assault meant to take out thier defenses. Iran would not be able to find the MCM’s much less target them. The first salvo of ASM’s they fired would be their last.
To quote the front cover of the Top Gun Manual, “Power Projection is not having a 100K ton ship off your coast. It’s having a 500lb bomb dropped in your living room.”
(I probably got that wrong, but it was words to that effect.)
It is not a matter of being sexy but of having compact, fast attack groups. You can’t have just any vessel in that scenario. In a true mobilization for war larger and faster escort vessels would accompany a plethora of slower specialized vessels. On a non-war footing one can’t have everything for every scenario since these fast carriers groups are highly mobile.
All well and good, but we will not know if 0 is serious about defending Hormouz until and unless MCMs, Ospreys, and/or the Ponce show up. Oh, and about those diesel subs…23 at last count…in the Iranian Navy. What, exactly, do we plan to do about them?
Alas, TedJ beat me to it on the Avenger Class.
Your article is written on the assumption that the USS Ponce will be sitting in the middle of the strait, undefended and unescorted. I do not believe that is even remotely accurate. She’ll likely be well defended by frigates, destroyers, and a number of other vessels attached or detached from a Carrier Battlegroup.
I see her as being useful as a sort of moveable base-station for SEALs among other useful functions including a mobile refueling deck, etc.
Orion
I just want to clarify issues mentioned in the article. First, my bona fides. I am a retired Naval Reserve officer with over 10 years of my career devoted to Mine Warfare. During that time I was honored to have served as the reserve CO of a mine sweeper (Called SelRes Coordinator, functioning as an adjucnt to the active duty CO)
1. The RIBs are part of the mine sweeping effort. They are used to support Explosive Ordance Disposal (EOD) divers, lower small charges to destroy mines directly and to support the best counter mining devices known to man, the trained porpoise and harbor seals used to find bottom mines.
2. Ponce is (was) an amphibous ship with a well deck. The ship can lower its rear end enough to allow good sized boats to enter an have a protected place to base. Note, Ponce would not be deployed alone, and is intended more as a tender and repair ship. It would be well protected by other 5th fleet assets. NO tender or repair ship is armed for more than warding off seagulls.
3. Mine sweeping is a complex, multi-platform operation. (Sweeps, Helos, RIBs, side looking sonar on Unmanned Submersiable Vehicles, Marine Mammals, Divers etc.)
4. What kind of mines do the Iranians have? The round things with spikes are not a big threat. More modern mines are…they would probably be soviet cast offs.
5. NATO navies have strong mine counter measure programs.
Sea mining is as much art as science. The idea of a mine field is to deny the enemy access to the particular rectangle of ocean specified. If no one challanges it the mine field wins (re: Haiphong in 1972). De-mining is a laborous process, requireing repeated passes over the area, catching a few mines each time. With each de-mining pass, the probability of safe passage improves. It is a national decision as to what probability is worth the risk. With modern navigation and ship handling, a single safe passage defines a clear route through the field. (Old mine sailors say that every ship is a mine sweeper once).
I am must less worried about mines or other sea borne threats than letting his O’ness get reelected and give the whole thing away. A mine field is not an impenetrable barrier. A safe passage is a high probable event even in a dense field.
ta
Oh sure, sir, what would YOU know about the subject?
Other than everything, apparently…;-)
Hooah.
Orion
Thank you for your post.
One reason I keep returning to PJM is that there is a strong base of experts in many fields who may not comment often but when they do I get an education.
You clarified the issues and I understand better now.
Spindok
Hooah! indeed.
Thank you Sir.
I get tired of reading all the so called experts online for these type
of important topics.
I am a Canadian from a family that fought with Americans in many wars.
I have never been in the military myself though.
But have massive respect for folks like you and my relatives who died for our freedoms.
Even as a Canadian and I’m not alone up here ….WE ARE VERY CONCERNED THAT AS YOU CALL HIM THE ONENESS GETS BACK IN FOR A SECOND TERM.
By the way …Did you folks know we have lots and lots of oil up here? lol
But apparently it’s better…according to the oneness… to get it from the guy who you are about to fight with….
Hmmm…strange decision.
No minesweepers? … Of course we do. We’ve got the entire “Me” generation.
Mine! Mine! Mine!
/sorry …
That was horrible.
Go smoke yourself.
Orion
I’ve always wondered how effective the Navy’s dolphin program is.
I wonder if the Iranians have a dolphin program of their own…
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/85/Day_of_the_dolphin_ver3.jpg/402px-Day_of_the_dolphin_ver3.jpg
Peta’s goal: First they’ll free the whales, then the dolphins.
I suspect the answer is yes but the administration will put paid to that idea
If we would have invaded Iran and destroyed their Mad Mullah government in 1979, like we should have done, then we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
It’s never too late to make up for past mistakes.
I even have a code name for the U.S. invasion of Iran:
Operation Do You Remember when Your Pet Terrorists Blew Up a Couple of Hundred of Our Marines in Lebanon? We Do.
Mad Mullahs delenda est.
I will not be forgetting any time soon.
Semper Fi
To the death, through eternity.
You have to remember something before you can forget it and nobody knows who did that deed. You won’t find out from “everybody knows” Surls, the poor man’s fact finder.
I know something. Why don’t you share what you think you remember?
Source what you think you remember; you’ll find you can’t do it. Attack a thing, not everything.
Better yet, Khomeni should have had a 9mm brain hemmorage on his way back to Iran. The British once understood being a World Power and we’ve even shown flashes of understanding, even in Democrat Administrations, but not in a very long time. Kennedy was the last Democrat with a clue, and even he came up short on committment and execution. He gets all sorts of credit for basically surrendering our strategic position in Turkey in the Cuban Missile Crisis, but you have to know a little history to understand that, I guess.
Not that I’m excusing the Obama administration, or even the Pentagon, but navies the world over have been skimping on mine warfare for generations. If you don’t believe me, read an account of the British and French navies trying to fight through the Dardanelles in World War I. The whole thing was held up by Turkish minefields, which were especially effective because the British version of minesweeping involved semi-trained civilian crews on semi-converted fishing boats, and those crews objected to doing their job if the Turkish shore batteries were shooting at them.
As one other observer noted, navies tend to go for the sexier ships. Back in the ’20s and ’30s, that was battleships and cruisers. Aircraft carriers were a poor cousin, and anti-submarine warfare was almost completely neglected. Pearl Harbor and the “Happy Time” for U-boats in the Atlantic just after it made the U.S. Navy believers in the benefits of having both aircraft carriers of your own and good anti-aircraft batteries on the one hand, and high-tech anti-submarine countermeasures on the appropriate platforms on the other, so we’re prepared for someone who attacks us with those. We’re maybe not quite as prepared yet for mines…
I think the confusion is that the Navy has merged the roles of minesweeping and minehunting ships into one role – mine countermeasures, which the Avenger does and the new littoral ships will have packages for.
Technically yes, it doesn’t have any minesweepers, but it has 14 Avenger class mine countermeasures ships which do the exact same job.
I mean, here, read this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avenger_class_mine_countermeasures_ship
Did you forget also, that the second the Iranians try to put a new mine in the water, we react swiftly and decisively to make new reefs out of their combat assets, ala operation Praying Mantis. I understand the Navy has, as some have pointed out, been more concerned with blue water darlings, but they are still a very capable fighting force, and able to reconfigure if necessary. The first hours of the Iranians attempt to mine the straight will be the most important. If they have no delivery platforms, then we have less need to sweep their mines.
Good analysis but there is another possibility. The coast line of Oman has lots of nooks and crannies. Bays where a super sonic sea skimming missile can’t go. In the Falklands war the British used similar bays and fiords to shelter from air and missile attack. The Brit’s deployed their main anti-air defences on shore around the bay hitting the planes several times before they got to the ships and then again as the fighter bombers left. Argentina suffered heavy attrition. Its possible that this and other ships will be deployed in this manner. The vessels helicopters may be used for both anti mine and anti-small boat operations by deploying the huge number of helicopter gunships armed with both guns and cheap fragmentation rockets. Its also possible to use a helicopter to counter the anti ship missiles both by arming them with radar decoys, overwhelming the Iranians with lots of big tanker like blips and by using hypersonic flechette rockets that are fired at the missile as to passes the chopper cordon. The rigs would be deployed to get people onshore quickly and to get to downed chopper pilots in the straights. They may be used to get to and from land based radar jammers and decoy reflectors, or the keep the Iranian commandos away from the same.
Maybe my memory isn’t so good, but didn’t the Argies bomb the crap out of the British landing force despite fjords and heavy attrition?
I don’t know that I’d say ‘bombed the crap out of’ – and the RN was primarily an ASW force. Air Defence was supposed to be someone else’s job…They still did a very credible job of defending their landings.
The Argentine air assets were GUTTED. The RN lost 2 destroyers, 2 frigates, a pair of ‘phibs, and a container ship against the loss of, I believe 37 tactical aircraft. If memory serves, they lost what was about 2/3 of the Argentine tactical air assets.
The USN is CONSIDERABLY more capable in the air defence role.
Orion
Seems to be a matter of will. Does the US have the will to go to war with Iran or not? Here in Israel there won’t be much choice, if any. It’s a matter of time.
Well, it’s a matter of time for the US as well, but it’s far enough from Iran and powerful enough to postpone the reckoning. So it does.
Nuke them NOW … Clear the harbor later…. With them all dead no more mine will show up in the water !!
The Ponce is not going to be sitting in the gulf alone. The aegis destroyers in the area are more than capable of providing cover. There are also a couple extremely modern Littoral Combat ships (LCS) developed to counter mine threats. The LCS is already in the fleet and will not take months.
Strategepage.com has a article today about the Avengers
Avengers Upgraded
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsurf/articles/20120208.aspx
Bizarre naval strategies from clueless, armchair Admirals:
“The theory is that the SEALS would chase the patrol boats or, if necessary, capture them.”
“…the SEALs would also have to protect the Ponce…”
These two statements alone prove that the authors know nothing about the USN or how it operates.
Icepilot,
People don’t seem to realize that the Ponce would be protected by a multilayered defense network of surface and sub surface ships, air assets and land based defenses. The Iranian’s might get through, but it is an unlikely bet. At this juncture we don’t even know where the ship might be stationed in theater.
Sam,
Roger that.
If the Gulf goes hot and the Iranian “fastboats” come out in numbers, memories of the Marianas will closely follow the smoking, empty holes in the water.
The truly sad thing is that that “stupid cowboy” GWB left Obama with Iran almost completely surrounded – Iraq to the west, Afghanistan to the east and the USN (& Qatar, UAE & Saudi Arabia) to the south.
How many American lives will be lost when President Obama has to finally pull the military trigger on Iran due to his own emasculation of the military dispositions he inherited?
How much better would the diplomatic and economic pressure on Iran be, if backed by some obvious saber rattling?
Strategy indeed.
IcePilot,
How right you are. If you want to tighten Iranian sphincters you wheel assets into the theater. You also make statements about “routine naval operations”.
I believe the US needs to adjust its war doctrine. I believe winning hearts and minds and turning our enemies into Jeffersonian republicans is a fools errand.I recommend a new doctrine.
If you kill US citizens and interfere with our interests, we will select the least expensive means available to neutralize the threat. When we have achieved our end, we leave and you can spend the rest of your lives trying to fix what is left. No more nation building. This is what we should have done in Afghanistan.
This doctrine should be applied with gusto to the Iranians, who are responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans and who took our diplomats hostage. If they deign to close the Straits, it should be a regime ending decision on their part. We should neutralize them as a further threat to our commerce, then arm the opposition so their country decends into a civil war. They will be too busy to be screwing around with Hezbullah and Chavez.
It would be a nice way to pay the mullahs back for all their kindness over the years.
Maybe others would leave us alone after that.
HOOAH!!!
Are you running for President? Please?
Orion
Someone made the point above that there are neighbors of Iran who export petroleum through the Straits of Hormuz. They know the Iranian method of operation from the Iran Iraq war of the 1980′s. Why don’t these nations have effective sweeping capabilities?
If Iran is stupid enough to attempt to close the Straits, it will be a very expensive decision for them. They will lose their own exports. The blockade will be considered an act of war and they will align world opinion against them, even the Chinese won’t be thrilled. Further, NATO surface and sub surface forces are massing in and near the gulf, we have two carrier battle groups on station and a third on the way. Although the Iranians could damage or even sink naval vessels near their shores the power and arrayed capability of these carrier task forces is a fearsome prospect for the Iranian military to have to deal with. The air power that could be massed would badly attrit air defense capability. The Iranian ports where mining operations were hatched would become deathtraps as NATO forces would start with air superiority and quickly achieve air supremacy. This would allow for unfetered surveillance and tremendous damage would be meted out on Iranian naval assets.Iranian submarines would become coffins for their unfortunate sailors. Additionally, there are also multiple land bases from which NATO forces could support a naval operation both logistically and strategicly. Iran might get off a few lucky shots and they could slow tanker traffic for a while, but the cost to them would be catastrophic.
We shall see what Iran chooses to do. A blockade would be very harmful to the mullahs.
If the President didn’t have his head so far up his a$& two years ago when the Greens were after the Iranian leadership, we might not be dealing with this now. If Iran mounts a blockade or gets a nuclear weapon, the responsibility is exclusively Obama’s.
Oh, and by the way, don’t put it beneath his majesty to use our military assets for a wag the dog scenario.
If some of those Navy hilos and some of the vessels operating in the Gulf of Mexico (and bays) aren’t training for mine-sweeping operations and/or sweeping experiments, I sure can’t imagine what the hell they are doing. They can’t all be used for training divers.
Minesweeping USN Style 101. How we did it and will do it.
Ponce sounds like a flagship and support platform for the mine countermeasure efforts and possibly also as a base for SPECWAR and as a fuel and depot ship for deployed MCM assets which do range from the MCM ships to the various extant MCM helicopters. The MH53 use the same sensors and sweep/hunt capability that the more modern HH65s use. The MCM ship both hunts and sweeps and uses the same exact sonar as the Ospreys did.
Able to ballast down and launch and recover serious little boats in the well deck the Ponce can support the attack boats of various of our specialized little bunch and can also put boats over the side using an existing 60 thousand pound crane. Boats can be stacked on the flight deck and boat deck. Plenty of room for 9 boats up there plus a minimum of 3 MH53 or probably for of the new helos.
The other thing to consider is when we used them (LPD) as MCM seabases in the Persian Gulf from 1987-1990 the ships sometimes had an entire MAGTFF (Marine Air Ground Task Force) with up to 11 helos including a number of Cobra gun ships. Our two floating barge seabases had very dangerous little birds embarked that flew after dark and kept any covert mining from happening after dark and served to refuel our Minesweepers (MSO).
We used to go alongside the barges or the LPD/LSD motherships at dusk and refuel and get repair parts from either the MCM packout kits or from items rushed forward in response to our needs. Easy to get it to the LPD/LSD because they have flight decks which means the parts could be flown from the states in 48 hours and then fly out of our port on a helo that could land on the AMPHIBS. MCM/MSO don’t have flight decks.
The LCS are fake. There is right now not one single existing tested MCM module. The LCS with base capability are incapable of missile defense, anti-surface warfare or MCM. Plus there are only 2 of them.
As other commenters have pointed out we have some fairly robust MCM forces permanently based in the Persian Gulf. They’ve been there since 1996.
If the Iranians have been, like the Iraqis, buying up Italian bottom mines or rocket rising mines, I’d be concerned but the USN will know if that’s the case. The old M-08 and Miyam mines they used during Ernest Will back in 1987-1990 were pretty easy to defeat. The RN and Russians used to actually go sweeping for them while we stuck to mine hunting and using EOD to destroy the ones we found.
One needn’t sweep the entire Gulf to achieve mine defeat. All one needs is to sweep the shipping lanes to the various ports and in the case of the Strait of Hormuz, the inbound and outbound shipping lanes. They’re 2 miles across each and if the tankers follow their GPS navigation they should have no trouble and it wouldn’t take more than a week or two depending on circumstances and wind and weather.
Platforms like the Ponce could host the attack helos that would keep Iran from reseeding the swept areas behind the MCM effort. In my day we didn’t like to work after dark since it was a total effort to do it at all and the crew needs rest.
The article was incorrect. The MHC class was designed to counter mining by USSR subs and other traffic ships along US coasts by Russian subs. It was not designed to deploy overseas much less stay at sea for more than a few days at a time. The MHC’s don’t meet Navy requirements in the post cold war era and that’s why we are getting rid of them.
The main US MCM assett, the MCM-1 Avenger class is a far more capable and is designed to deploy. My most recent information indicates we have some in the Persian Gulf area. The MCM-1 class is the most capable MCM ship that exists and will remain so until replaced by the LCS which is behind schedule.