Ask Dr. Helen: When Wife Out-Earns Hubby
Okay, male readers, today, a female reader — let’s call her “Lilly” for clarity’s sake — is asking for your help. Here is her email:
Dr. Helen,
I’ve recently found myself bringing in more money than my husband, and it’s causing problems. It’s not because he doesn’t work hard — he works more than me (which probably just adds insult to injury).
I’ve been looking up this topic online. Everywhere I look it is just women commenting on how to make the man feel better, but I’d like to hear from men on what works for them.
Thanks — Please don’t use my name! For my husbands sake!
Dear “Lilly,”
You didn’t tell me much about yourself or what the specific problems are between you and your husband in terms of money issues. I will, therefore, have to be a bit general and you can use what you find relevant. I will start with some stats on women who are the chief breadwinners in their family, what advice is out there and then move to some specifics about what you can do to keep money from coming between you and your husband.
This letter could have been written by many women around the United States. Times are changing and women are bringing in more and more of the household income, about 43% according to one study [this percentage seems awfully high to me, given that so many women work part time]. Although there are no official stats on this trend, wives are the chief breadwinners in one-third of all marriages, according to the Federal Bureau of Labor Statistics. In addition, women from ages 21 to 30 living in New York City and working full time made 117 percent of men’s wages, or a median wage of $35,653, and even more in Dallas, 120 percent.
I remember reading in a women’s magazine, Cosmo, I think, some good advice to women in these cities who are bringing in more than their guy — first, don’t brag about it, and second, pay for dinner and don’t make a big deal about it.
Simplistic advice but not bad for a start for the woman who earns more than her guy.
However, much of the advice for women who earn more than their husbands ranges from the downright sexist to the ridiculous (although some of it is sensible) and is hard to sort out. For example, MSN (who seems to slam men every chance they get) had the following “gems” for breadwinner women:
We could spend hours debating the emotional nuances of what it means — for feminism? for the family? — that the male-as-breadwinner species may be as endangered as the two-toed sloth. But in order to find and keep your financial sanity as a female breadwinner, you have to accept a few basic laws of nature: You’re in charge. This doesn’t mean you and your partner can’t share equally in financial decisions, but you need to accept the fact that you will probably be the one to initiate most discussions, monitor how your money is organized and orchestrate your financial future.
Clarify roles and expectations. Given that female breadwinners lack for role models, you have to start with what you’ve got — and improvise. That means sitting down with your spouse and expressing what your ideas and expectations are for everything from spending to laundry — and likewise listening to his.
If you are hoping to emasculate your husband, turn him against you and possibly end up in divorce court, follow the above advice. Otherwise, it is not worth the pixels it’s written on. You are not in charge just because you earn more money than your husband, this is ridiculous. When men treat their wives like this, is is considered abuse and they are told to knock it off. Redbook has a good article on how to handle money issues more gracefully:
Which brings up another he-makes-less hazard: battles over the proverbial purse strings. “It’s essential to give him a sense of control over financial issues,” says Haltzman. “One of the most destructive things you could do to your marriage is say, ‘I earn all the money, I make all the decisions.’ Powerlessness is death to a man.” Jane and John Metcalfe’s solution: “We make all decisions based on a collective need, rather than on who earns what,” says Jane. All their money goes into a joint checking account so that “his” and “hers” immediately become “theirs.” Combining resources is actually common, says Minetor: “The majority of these couples pool their money, and the spouse with more time and interest manages it.” That’s a good idea, says Haltzman, because having to ask for money can be humiliating for the lower earner.
A high-earning woman needs to make it a priority to respect her husband — or she could end up with a man who feels like this:
Craig, an actor and scriptwriter, meanwhile, feels equally unhappy.
“Being a kept man does strange things to the male psyche,” he says.
“The price is no cash, no liberty and precious little respect.”
“Our respect for our partner rests on whether they are fulfilling their gender expectations,” says Professor Janet Reibstein, psychologist and author of The Best-Kept Secret: Men and Women’s Stories of Enduring Love.
“Higher-earning women struggle to respect their low-paid men because social prejudice says that a man should keep his woman.
This struggle to respect him may be apparent to a man who makes less money or he may feel he is not getting respect even if the woman feels she is giving it to him. How can you make sure that your man feels appreciated for who he is and his qualities and not just a paycheck?
First, treat him the same way you would want to be treated if he made more money. Don’t make it the focal point of your lives but rather use it as a tool to make your life easier and more manageable. Be open about finances and talk over purchases as equals, not as the “person in charge.”
Make sure your resentment doesn’t build up over time. Men tend to do things a bit differently at times around the house and you may have to change your standards if you find that you expect him to do things exactly the way you might. Let him know how great it is when he does other chores, such as yard work, fixing electrical or plumbing problems or throwing ball with Johnny. These are equally important to household chores but often get overlooked because women do not do them as often.
Keep an eye on your sex life. In this article on high-earning women, it states:
When low-earning men feel belittled and high-earning women feel resentment, their sex life inevitably wanes.
“It’s common for high-earning women to withhold sex,” says Kathleen Cox.
Being sexually available is a large part of the way a “kept” woman “earns” her spending power.
“But if women are the richer partner,” she says, “they have power to refuse sex. They think, “I don’t want to have sex, so why should I?”"
Using sex as a weapon is a big no-no and should never be done if one wants a decent marriage.
Finally, Lilly, these are only suggestions. You may not have any of the above problems and it may simply be that your husband feels upset that the traditional roles are reversed and this has lead to unpleasant feelings on his part. In that case, I turn the floor over to male readers to help with what you can do to help him and yourself cope.
So, male readers, do you have any advice for Lilly on how to help her husband cope with her increased paycheck? Does your wife make more than you? Does it bother you or do you feel good about it? Let her (and the rest of us) know if your significant other’s increased paycheck is an issue for you and if it is, how you felt and what you wanted your wife, girlfriend to do or not do?
____________________________
If you have a question you would like answered, please leave it below or email me at askdrhelen@hotmail.com. Your questions may be edited for length and clarity. Please note that your first name only or no name at all will be used to identify your question — if you want me to use your name, tell me, otherwise you will be referred to by your first name or as “a reader” etc. And of course, if any women have experience dealing with this type of money issue, please comment also.
Helen Smith is a psychologist specializing in forensic issues in Knoxville, Tennessee and blogs at drhelen.blogspot.com. This advice column is for educational and entertainment purposes only and does not purport to replace therapy or psychological treatment.
What’s the big deal?
My wife has always earned more than me, since we’re not spendthrifts, its never been an issue. Hell, when the kid was a baby, I worked at night and played Mr. Mom in the daytime. Loved it!
I think a lot this has to do with the strength of the relationship to begin with. We get along great, the sex doesn’t slow down at middle-age, and money is not an issue with us since our marriage has always been a strong partnership.
Methinks some of these guys are crybabies who are not comfortable in their masculinity enough to appreciate a good woman when they have one, money or no money.
My wife made more than I did for a while. Not a problem for me. Mo’ money is mo’ money. Right now, I make the money and my wife decides how to spend it. Fine with me. The problems begin when the breadwinner decides he or she has to run everything. That belittles the partner.
Seems to me, if you can’t make a living as a writer/actor/artist, there’s a message there. Your product is not appreciated and/or you’re using it as an excuse for not growing up. Get a real job instead of whining about it.
As practical advice, I think it’s important for working adults to have their “own” money aside from the pool. Figure out your monthly recurring expenses, say $5000. Then figure the proportion each earner makes with regard to the whole — like 60%/40%. Add in your proportion to the bills, which would be then, $3000 and $2000. Each then puts the rest into their own account.
Well, if it really bugs him, sit down with him and offer to donate all the extra money you make plus a dollar to some charity. Say it with a straight face. I think he will smile then laugh, then ask you to buy him something!
Trey
Sorry, but I can’t help you either, other than offering my condolences for getting saddled with a husband with such insecurities.
My advice would be to dump him and make another choice, but that’s probably impractical.
P.S. However, the “I’m going to donate the difference” ploy may not go over well…better consider the possible outcomes before you go with that on – it doesn’t sound like your boy is ready to laugh about this. On the other hand, Cosmo’s advice applies to both genders very well.
I also think it is a matter of “communication.” My wife has always made somewhat more than I do (60/40?). However, it is not due to anything other than the prevailing wages for our professions. In fact, despite my somewhat lower pay, my profession comes with more “prestige.” But unconsiously she has sometimes acted in a disrespectful fashion regarding money as a result of the disparity. So, I have firmly (sometimes very firmly) walked her through the golden rule (treat others the way…) and not accepted a subservient role. Usually this communication has resulted in better behavior on both of our parts as my wife really wants a close relationship more than to be in charge. In other words, when I feel that she is being controlling about money, it that she is not aware of how she is making me feel and feels regretful when I make her aware. Finally, no matter what her income, I think I am way too alpha to ever let my wife make decisions for me. They simply wouldn’t stick.
I’ve always looked at marriage as a partnership, not a competition. You work together as a team regardless of who earns what. If it matters at all, you have some issues to work out in your marriage.
Well, as a Man, the important thing to remember is what you DO bring into the relationship. Manhood is more than just making money. It is about being strong, and providing leadership. My wife has, at times, made more money than me. I started to get worked up over it, but decided that off all the things to get worked up over, that should not be my first.
Rick
My wife has kept the finances straight for most of our marriage. That mostly has to do with my “close-enough” method of balancing the checkbook. For budgeting, I make the plan, and then we both go over it to make sure it fits both our needs. It’s always been “our” money. When I’ve wanted a big ticket item, she’s usually requested something for herself. We keep things fair that way.
I made more for most of our marriage, but the last several years, she’s been over and above my salary by a significant amount (due to bonuses.) I’ve never had a problem with that, and keep asking her when I can retire. Always with a smile.
Seriously, when we have kids, I’d consider being a stay-at-home Dad, and home school our children.
I think, inclusion, fairness and respect should be the rule, no matter who makes the most money.
I know from taking a sabbatical. . .
Society has *huge* expectations about role. Just looking at the faces of both men and women when you mention that you (the male) are the stay at home parent and your wife is the income earner. My advice: Talk much more. For every negative emotion that your husband goes through, he needs to hear positive, supporting messages about YOUR feelings. Twice. It is easier to ignore all the stereotypes and stand alone when the woman you love is giving you the message that she is 100% behind what you are doing now. But if you *are not* 100% behind the way things are now, then you do indeed have a problem. Oh, and never express sympathetic or empathetic approval when someone else is implying those societal messages. It’s hard on a spouse if you tell them one thing, but agree with your friends when they are implying the direct opposite. Good Luck.
“Craig, an actor and a scriptwriter, feels unhappy.”
Hmmm. I think I’m beginning to see what the problem is.
My wife used to make about 5 times what I made. Now she makes zero. In neither case was wither of our contribution to our marriage based on our respective incomes. Marriage is a partnership to which you bring love, attention, manual labor, your professional skills, and your income. That order is probably about right for how you should prioritize. Sure, my wife made more than me, especially when I was unemployed. But, I spent time looking for work, fixing things around the house, and installing hardwood floors. Now she raises our two children. She may not make any money, but she surely works harder than I do.
I guess what I am saying is that income should be the last measure of a person’s worth. If it higher than the bottom, something is wrong.
-cliff
Here is something I can speak to. Many of these answers are naiive and the question is ill posed.
I earn a barely six figure salary, my wife earns a mid six figure salary. It seems to work like this. I have an instinctive belief that all of my money goes into a shared pot for the family. I would believe this even if I was the one earning the big bucks.
My wife believes this too. That my money should go 100% into the pot for household expenses. But somehow she believes that the extra money she earns is hers. And before you go jumping on either one of us, think about how both of our attitudes come from our expectations, and evolutionary needs as a sex.
This has caused huge friction between us, because the way she earns her money gives her complete control of it, and she can release it into the household budget in dribs and drabs, usually right about the time she thinks of some big ticket item she wants.
My advice to a woman in this lady’s postion? If you don’t want to breed resentment over time, your money goes into a shared pot. You make the decisions about it together. Each of you has an allowance that is equal, based on discretionary income, and neither, ever, makes a comment on what that money is spent on. By the way, gifts to each other from this fund actually mean something.
My wife has always made more than I do (aside from the first year while she was finishing college). We were lucky in that we both had nothing when we got married and got used to putting the money in a common pot (i.e. “our” money) early. We both work full-time (she puts in more hours than I do most of the time), but she doesn’t make me feel like a slacker for not making more money. I think that’s the key.
We’ve been married 36 yrs and both of us will probably be retiring this year. Her retirement will bring in far more than mine. So what, money is fungible.
I think that because I am a (relatively) old fart, I’m secure in my masculinity. Besides, my mustache is much nicer than hers.
Who cares who makes more?!? My wife and I have our own financial accounts. That was a result of a career in the the Marine Corps and long separations. It was just easier to keep track of the money if we had separate accounts. Back then it was eveything to her account so she could take care of family and household and a stipend to me so I could get a cold brew occasionally.
Rule number one for a successful marraige: “Never argue about money!” If money is there why argue over something you have? If it is not there, what good will arguing do?
Semper Fi
When we were younger, my (not yet) wife made significantly more money than I did (at one point 25% more) and it was really never an issue. In fact I was proud that she was so successful. When we relocated to allow me to take a better job, she was actually able to stop working. She was never overly “into” her career so this was not a problem for her. Again, for me it was both a non-issue and a source of some pride that a woman that successful was into me.
A bit of advice would be to allow him to have some money of his own. Just as women don’t like to have to “ask” for money, neither do men. If you pool all your money, insist on an allowance for both of you. It does not need to be much but you both should have access to some money that you can spend on your own.
I fall in the category of my wife earning more than I, and she has our whole 36 years of married life. She is a Pharmacist I am a Computer Engineer. Tell your hubby to man up and enjoy the fact that you BOTH contribute to your financial security.
Another thought, if you have separate checking accounts or savings accounts, ditch them. You are a FAMILY not two people living together. Just pool the money.
If you still can’t get him to come around perhaps he isn’t the guy for you.
In all seriousness, if you’re a man don’t marry someone who will make more than you if this will be a problem for you. Same for a woman, don’t marry him if he can’t have a pretty good chance to earn more than you if this will affect your views of him.
Is this too practical? Too impractical?
Maybe it’s impossible for a young person to take this into account, but if you’re older and getting married or remarried, I think you would be very foolish not to consider this when choosing a potential spouse.
Quick anecdote. Due to being laid off a job, for a while my ex earned more than me, a fact she cited upon our divorce. I hadn’t had a problem with it, but apparently she did.
When we first met, I made significantly more money than my husband, but that situation changed when we started having kids. It made the most sense for me to stay home with them, so I did, and my husband started a consulting business and his income increased substantially.
As with all things economic, the relative income brackets in a marriage are not likely to remain set in stone over the lifetime of the marriage, especially if you have children. That’s something for everyone to keep in mind.
We have always pooled our money, all of it except what’s going into our retirement accounts. And we’ve always talked about long-term and short-term goals. We’re comfortable enough that we can buy pretty much whatever we want, but then again, neither one of us is spendy. If either wants a big ticket item, that would come up for discussion. Sometimes we may have to delay a purchase, sometimes we decide we just don’t need it after all, and sometimes we go ahead and spend the money. But we make these decisions as a couple because that’s what couples should do. We trust each other.
I only wish I could have such problems. If my wife earned a lot more than I do, that would be great. We could pay off our debts, replace our elderly cars, and put our children through college without saddling them with student loans.
I’m sorry, but I can’t see husbands who whine about this as anything more than pathetic drama queens. If your self-esteem is derived entirely from the size of your paycheck, then your entire approach to life is screwed up.
What do you respect him for, what do you look to him for, what are his leadership qualities, what are his strengths of character?
You need to value those things and make it known to him that you value them — not just explicitly, but implicitly and as a part of your life with him.
I think there are a lot of other factors involved in this question than just salary level, including your respective ages, stages [and relative success] of careers, the amount of money involved, lifestyle aspirations and spending desires/habits.
For me, I couldn’t live with a woman who had lifestyle aspirations well above what I could provide — even if she could. Similarly, I’ve never had problems in a relationship, no matter who made more money, where we both agreed on our general lifestyle and spending habits. Then it’s a partnership.
Make sense?
Based on the scant information provided by Lilly, it sounds like her husband isn’t a “kept” man, but that he works longer hours and earns less money than her. It’s tough to get a read on the situation without knowing what kind of work he does, but I would suggest to Lilly that she consider the social value of her husband’s job (does he teach; is he in law enforcement?), and give him props for that whenever he is feeling a little insecure.
Interesting topic. My wife and I have pursued directions that would allow us to earn more money. We are both in graduate school now, and there is a good chance she’ll earn more than I will after school. To me, that just means more money for the pot. I think this would be a huge issue if separate accounts were held. As stated previously, “mo money is mo money”. I don’t care how it is earned, as long as we’re (operative word here) earning it. WE.
That being said, I still think there is a question of machismo here. The issue in the relationship sounds more like an inability to be assertive. The money isn’t the problem, it’s that the man may not know how to be a man. The lines are becoming more fuzzy for this distinction as time passes. Where is our John Wayne? Too many forces want men to be anything but manly.
The advice about expectations for male vs. female roles is very good. Not all men are capable of playing Mr. Mom (and not all women are suitable for being stay-at-home moms). I love my 4-year-old daughter with all my heart but I would dread having to care for her as a stay-at-home parent. I just don’t have the type of personality to handle it full time. In another example of expectations, my wife and I married late in life. We both lived satisfying productive lives as singles, but there were differences in the way we took care of our households. I certainly did not vacuum and clean as much as my wife and I never owned an ironing board. On the other hand I enjoy cooking. If a women expects a guy to do housework according to her standards then she is going to be disappointed, not just because he is a guy but because he is a different person.
I question the extent to which this is actually happening. If it’s 43% of households, that’s a sharp jump from the 20% I read about five years ago.
Furthermore, the impression left by articles like these is of a hedge-fund manager wife married to a family practice physician. In reality, the vast majority of such cases involve a waitress married to an unemployed man!
The woman needs to examine her own emotions and psyche very carefully, openly, and honestly. Maybe with a therapist. I am not kidding. Society always puts this problem on the male ego.
For a while, I earned more than my wife by about 3:1. Then she outearned me about 3.5:1 when I went back to school for a professional degree. Now we both make a lot more money and I outearn her by about 2.5:1. We’re both crummy with money, don’t communicate about it well, both fiercely independent and sort of like it that way. So we divvied up household expenses more or less proportionately, pay into a couple common pots (savings & college fund) and when one of us needs help with the bills on a given month asks the other. We also coordinate pretty well on the long term financial planning, sync up our major long term finances (e.g. home improvement costs) but still maintain a lot of independence. One or the other of us has always had the lion’s share of the bills, and the basic rule is we share proportionally to our income on household expenses, but each is on their own if they want to screw up their personal finances with a credit card. (You’re never on your own once you’ve co-signed, but I have come to trust her on that issue, and she, me).
It’s not a perfect or permanent or one-size-fits-all solution, it’s just a negotiated settlement we reached after trying every other idea that didn’t work for *us* including the common-pot approach, which was disastrous since each felt the other was micromanaging. At times we’ve paid very close attention to our slender income stream and have sync’ed it up closely but for the most part we try to preserve distance. It’s not perfect but neither are we, and this approach seems to work okay for us, and has particularly worked well over the last 4-5 years; we *never* fight about money.
BTW, two-toed sloths aren’t endangered. Fact checkers, apparently, are.
I have been on both sides of this issue. For a few years after college, I made more than my wife. She got her MBA and eventually settled into a really good company, moved up in the ranks, and is now earning much more than I did at my earning peak.
As long as the bills got paid and we were able to save for retirement and still have some fun, it didn’t matter whose money it was. I was smart enough to realize that her long-term financial prospects were better than mine given her choice of industry.
It gets better. We had a baby and after a year of daycare with both of us working full-time, we decided the best thing was for me to stay home while my wife continued to work. I never really enjoyed working anyway and she loves what she does and I’m more temperamentally suited for the job of watching a child all day. She loves our son but she freely admits that being around him every day, all day, would drive her a little bit crazy.
Whether it is because I am older and wiser (we had the child in our very late 30s) or extremely confident in my abilities and intelligence, it does not bother me at all that she works and makes a lot of money while I stay home changing diapers and raising our son. Since neither of us planned on having children, I look at this as the opportunity of a lifetime to spend the formative years of my son’s life with him.
My advice to those men threatened by a woman who makes more than they do would be to ask them to think long and hard about why they feel threatened. Is their sense of self-worth completely tied up in how much money they make? If you define yourself COMPLETELY by what type of work you do and how much money you make doing it, I suggest that your priorities in life may need some adjustment. I always thought of work as a means to an end and I never confused my sense of self with the work I did for other people.
The new reality is that as more women enter college and complete college degrees, women will represent an ever-increasing portion of the workforce to the point where they will be entitled to more money simply because they are the ones sitting there doing the work. Men who cannot adjust to this fact and respond appropriately will only shortchange themselves by settling for just those women who make less than they do. If you’re really that insecure, you can either (a) do something about it and accept the coming reality, or (b) look for women who don’t threaten you financially in any way. If you choose the latter course of action, don’t complain when you don’t have as much money to spend as men who can handle living with women who make more money than they do.
Not an issue in this house- My wife and I tend to swap top dog position on earnings. Last year, due to a neww addition to our family, I surpassed her but we are traditionally fairly equal. We both are fairly high income earners (hello ALT) so it’s more an issue of who controls the funds.
We do have a joint account which all of our money goes into but she is primary, pays the bills, etc. For the most part it’s OK but I have to be careful on my personal spending. It was almost an issue at Christmas when I needed a pretty substantial chunk of my bonus to get her a nice watch. At first their was the grilling on what I needed the funds for but it was pretty much moot come Christmas morning!
All in all, the more money, the better and I’m proud of her earning capabilities.
My wife is a stay at home Mom, but she spends more than I make. Does that count?
If only this was the case with us.
The first advice is simply not to resent him for it.
My wife can work part-time and bring in more than I can working full-time with as much overtime as I can grab.
We have a “medically-fragile” kid, which means one of us has to stay home. My wife would dearly love to be a stay-at-home mother. But with the mountain of debt from her schooling, that just isn’t feasable.
We’ve gotten into many a flaming row about it. She’s never accepted her role as “breadwinner” with good graces.
Second, don’t be petty.
Making more than he does isn’t a big deal. Rubbing it in, or throwing the gauntlet of “It’s *my* money”, is.
Obviously, women being the primary breadwinner is the way of the future. Get used to it. If you can’t handle it at least hang around long enough to win alimony in the divorce. The concept behind alimony has always been “winner pays.” If that doesn’t pan out consider other options than marriage. That seems to be gaining in popularity as well, although women seem to be writing belittling articles about men who opt to not marry, calling them immature, etc. Just understand guys that you are not going to make women happy. The thrill of victory seems to make them just as bitter as the role of non-earning housewife. Better learn to make yourself happy and leave it at that.
Some of that advice is ridiculous.
My mom was stay-at-home from the birth of my older brother until my little sister entered school, and she never earned more than my dad. Nevertheless, my dad was on an ‘allowance’ until he retired. Not really: he had enough to buy a used Triumph TR-7, but for daily expenses he had an allowance. My mom did all the money management. The big dollar decisions were mutual (often accompanied by a bit of yelling).
When it came time to buy cars or houses, dad picked the cars and they both picked the school district and house. My father then went in to negotiate the deal. It was not necessary to actually break the salesman’s spirit during this ordeal, but hey, sometimes these things happen.
I’ll never forget this exchange:
Dad: Let me have my pay stub.
Mom (confused): Why do you need that?
Dad: I want to remind myself that I make more than $50 a week.
Okay…. Firstly, a question. Have you really worked out the way the situation makes YOU feel and act/react? I only ask this because as a stay at home dad with my wife the sole breadwinner in the house I most often notice that she is the one with issues concerning the current arrangement. Both fiscally and emotionally. Of course, from time to time, I do feel somewhat emasculated and under appreciated, but I try to approach these feelings with dialogue and honesty with my wife. On the other hand, I usually end up having to argue with her to get her to open up about what she’s feeling and how she interprets signals she may or may not be getting from me. And that’s just it, really. Psychologically speaking, the most common problem in these arrangements is a lack of or perceived lack of honesty regarding our real feelings in situations such as these and our lack of communication or inability to communicate on these feelings with our spouses or partners. I honestly and wholeheartedly recommend a certain type and amount of therapy, if for no other reason than to provide a basis for open and honest discourse, without patronizing or communication breakdowns that are the result of so many well intended spousal discussions.
When we were first married I made FAR more than my wife. Like 10 times more. I “supported her” (if you want to call it that) all through her training.
Now I am a stay-at-home dad with part-time work and she’s a well-paid professional.
People who get their self-worth based on how much they make are screwed up to begin with. Comparing one’s income to that of one’s spouse as some method of oneupmanship is insane and a sure ticket to doom.
That advice cited above by MSN is utterly dumb as hell. I bet my left gonad it was written by someone who is divorced or single.
And people who rely on women’s magazines for insight into the male psyche are crazy already. Don’t hold your income or assets over someone’s head like a hammer, regardless of your gender. EVER. I am amazed this has to be pointed out.
Put all your money in one pot. ALL OF IT. Forget this “separate accounts/pay joint household expenses by percentage of income” crap. 55/45, 60/40. 62/38. What are you talking about, a few hundred a month? BFD. You are ONE ECONOMIC UNIT, probably taxed that way already, pulling the oars together, and you need to figure that out early on.
Let the person with the most aptitude or interest handle most of the bills and taxes. Not all, because that’s how one person can get blindsided. The “money person” should show the other what’s going on every few weeks (or on request) and explain the tax returns.
If one is a spendthrift, then adopt a rule (depending on your circumstances) like “Neither spends more than $20 or $50 or $100 or $400 on anything without mentioning it first.”
Any time someone utters the phrases (or holds the thought) “my money” or “your money” or “our money” there is already a problem.
Setting little traps and surprises or holding resentments for your spouse over money or anything else is utterly, absolutely, completely mad. Frankly, I think it’s the “women’s movement” that is responsible for most of this crap.
But what the hell do I know? We’ve only been together for 25 years and never more in love and we have NEVER had a disagreement, let alone an argument, about money.
I’m not in the same position as the men in this article. In fact, I’m in the opposite position. My wife has been at home with the kids for the past several years. I admit to taking an amount of satisfaction for providing for my family. On the other hand, this position comes with a lot of stress. I sometimes feel like I’m competing with our friends who are two income families. My wife doesn’t outright say that she wishes we had more money to do things like they do. But I can feel the pressure in subtle ways. She often comments on how much she thinks so and so makes, etc. In addition, my position at my job is tenuous at the moment. If I get laid off there will be enormous pressure to find a job that makes the same or more. This may be difficult and I may have to make personal sacrifices to make that happen. Again, more stress. My ego might be slightly wounded if my wife made more, but I would certainly welcome the shared responsibility.
My wife earns more than I do and I don’t mind a bit. I earn quite a bit myself and don’t feel the least bit resentful or ashamed about our situation. I like having a lot of money and would be even happier if my wife earned double or triple what I make. You know what they say about money, “The more, the merrier.”
I have my own business, my wife is a middle school AP and earns about $100K. There have been times when my business has struggled, and my compensation reflected that. But the mortgage and all the major expenses were/are always my responsibility, and I like it that way. And we don’t live in low-cost-of-living area either.
My point is: live below your means. If you’ve got two earners, it’s better to live on one income, and treat the other one as your nest egg
Reading all these men’s comments, it sounds like there is NOT much of a problem if the woman earns more in a generally healthy relationship.
I think a more interesting & difficult question is, how to do deal with the more general role-reversal that takes place in a perhaps less than perfect marriage?
I earn about 3x what my husband does. He’s at home during the day (alone), I’m at home during the evening (with the kids) while he works.
It bugs me to walk in from work and have to make dinner. It bugs me that in the many, many hours of time he has around the house, he barely manages a little bit of housework. It bugs me to pay for a cleaning lady b/c he won’t put in the two to three hours a week it takes to do the yucky cleaning. It bugs me that my “free” time in the evening is all taken up with homework, baths, bedtime, etc so that I don’t have any down time at all during the week.
He DOES do a number of things I appreciate – paying bills, grocery shopping, yardwork.
But I know, I just know, that if our roles were reversed, he’d expect the person at home all day to do some cooking, fold the laundry, mop the floors once in awhile.
If I talk to him about doing more around the house, I’m “nagging” – if I protest the expensive vacation or fancy TV he wants, I’m “controlling”.
It sucks.
My wife believes this too. That my money should go 100% into the pot for household expenses. But somehow she believes that the extra money she earns is hers. And before you go jumping on either one of us, think about how both of our attitudes come from our expectations, and evolutionary needs as a sex.
Wow, she sounds pretty selfishly immature. This has nothing to do with gender or societal expectations and everything to do with an inconsiderate, immature attitude about being a family.
It doesn’t bother me in the least. My wife made enough that she begged me to quit my job to be a stay-at-home dad.
So I did just that and now we have a vastly improved family and personal life; my kids are better behaved, we have more time together on weekends and less all-around stress.
It didn’t bother me when my wife outearned me, but now she’s started her own business. For tax purposes we are both employees of her corporation, but she’s the CEO and set the level of both our salaries. Should I *now* be worried that she earns for than I do?
New York Magazine ran an interesting article on this subject a few years ago.
The title speaks for itself:
Alpha Women, Beta Men
Anna, a public-relations executive, saw her relationship with her Web-designer husband collapse as she became more and more successful and he floundered. In the last year of their marriage, she earned $270,000 while he brought in $16,000.
“He never spent money that wasn’t his in an extravagant way,” she says while taking therapeutic sips of a Sea Breeze at Tribeca Grill on a recent evening. “But by not helping, he was freeloading.”
We’ve always used a joint checking account. And our careers have taken different turns. I used to make more money than my wife; then we both went to graduate school, which changed my career but enhanced hers. With an exception of only two years, ever since then she has made more money than I. But together we make enough to finance our lifestyle, and she will end up retiring sooner than I will. So for awhile, I will be making more (or the same) as she will through her retirement pay.
She handled the finances when I was overseas for six months, and has been more than willing to let me handle them the rest of the time.
As far as I am concerned, I don’t have a problem with her making more than I do, because, after all, she spends more money than I do.
I wholeheartedly agree with Chester White above.
I’m not in the same situation (The Missus stays home to raise the little one) but I’ll offer the advice that Dear Old Dad gave me with regards to money:
Pool it.
Every couple that my parents knew who got married but kept separate finances got divorced. Every single one. If you start thinking in terms of “these dollars are mine, those dollars are yours” you pave the road to resentment, because one person will always be making more than the other.
And never get into a mindset where you feel like you have to ask permission to spend money. You don’t ask for permission, you discuss. You say “I want X” and the both of you see if you can work it into the budget together. That’s not getting permission. That’s behaving like a responsible adult and realizing that your decisions affect other people.
My wife and I had some arguments about money when we first got married. So I decided to open up two new checking accounts (for a total of 3). Our direct deposits going into our main joint account. Then every week we have an “allowance” that goes into these two other accounts. We can do whatever we want with that money, no questions asked. The money from the main account gets spent on bills, mortgage, etc. Anything outside of that we have to agree on or we do not spend it. That seems to work best for us.
My wife makes about 2.5-3x what I do. However, I knew that was likely since we started dating in college, as she was pre-med and I’m an engineer. The cold hard fact is that, for a variety of reasons, engineers are paid less than physicians. So, I’m not upset in any way. I have a “cool” engineering job, where I don’t have to try to move into management to make the big bucks – I deliberately stepped off that track, because I hated it. It also meant that for a while when our daughter needed me to, I went half-time to be home with her.
One thing we do that is different than many couples that we know is that we pool all our money. That’s how we think of it – OUR money, not “his” and “hers”. We go over the bills together, we manage her retirement fund and mine in concert, and we both have the authority to sign on all our accounts.
My wife gets some big-ass bonuses from time to time and she always says something like, “We’re going to sock this away and spend it on retirement party for the two of us! In Tahiti!” If I had any problem with her earning more, that would pretty much take care of it.
And guys, when your wife really hits one out of the park, lean down, give her a kiss and tell her, “I’m very proud. Now fix me a sammich, Tiger.”
I’m a college teacher, so you can guess which of the two in our house makes more cash (me-PhD; her-CPA). You guessed it, CPA. I remember bringing this up in class once and my kids being shocked that I would “let” my wife earn more than me. The very idea of letting my wife do almost anything is just silly. I do think the idea of keeping a separate pot of cash is a really, really bad idea. I think it would be bad either way for that matter. We each have good jobs that we love and find rewarding. Our 2 paychecks go into one account. We do have an absurdly (for what our family income is) low ‘check-in’ amount. That is to say, either one of us has to check-in with the other before we buy something for over $100. This isn’t a rule as much as a way for our family to function. Neither one of us has ever thought about who earns more as that person gets to make the financial decisions. We got married because we love each other. We are in this life together. When it comes to cash, there is no mine, hers, and ours. There is just ours.
It seems to be hard for a woman to be sexually attracted to a man who doesn’t have money and/or status, however these things are defined in her social circle. It actually seems that in the female brain, the money-and-status detectors must be wired directly to the sexual response centers, just like the male brain links sexual appeal to physical attractiveness.
There are exceptions, for instance if the guy is extremely good looking or has an exceptional personality, but in general low status & income are a turnoff to women and this seems to happen below the level of conscious calculation.
I think the resentments on both sides come down to one simple human foolishness: “The grass is greener on the other side of the situation, and it’s your fault.” Women especially have this ailment, but men are being infected rapidly. Everybody just wants it all without sacrificing anything. Sorry, but that is called unhappiness and is 100% self inflicted. Heal thy self.
Ok, let’s get real here. You’re a guy, have a serious problem with this issue, are being emasculated by your friends, family, wife, and you’re going to honestly share that publicly?
I really don’t think so.
This is one of those situations where what’s said is going to radically differ from what’s happening behind closed doors.
As for Lilly, you might find Ephesians 5:25 is of use “Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her”. In Christ’s case money had nothing to do with His sacrifice and if you think no less of Him because he didn’t rain down money on His Church like manna from Heaven, why think less of your own husband who merely makes less than you?
For husbands who are in this situation, live up to Ephesians 5:25 and your wife should respond. If she does not, educate her.
Two checkbooks.
The husband’s goes to pay the mortgage/rent, utilities, taxes… keep lumping in stuff until you reach a point where the checkbook balance neither grows or is depleted on a monthly basis. The husband provides for the family. If he needs reinforcement that he is taking care of the family, let him write these bills.
The wife’s checkbook is for dining out, clothes, furniture, lump in the stuff that the husband’s check can’t cover. These are the things that you could presumably start to do without if things got tough. vacations, IRA’s, big screen tv’s and the cable bill. let the wife’s earnings generally provide for the fun stuff, and make decisions jointly on how it will be spent. I think men will generally encourage the wife to earn more if those are the funds that allow for a better quality of life rather than just the standard he provides.
Once it’s split like this, it is also easier to see what the ramifications of one spouse retiring or unable to work for other reasons, like raising kids or sickness.
I am all for women who earn more.
My wife and I are in a slightly different situation. For the first 20+ years of our marrage I made at least twice what she made. I let her handle the home finances (because she was better at it) and I handled the investments. But in the last three years I have been un and underemployed, making less than her most years.
The change is difficult for me to accept and I can see that the change in lifestyle is creating resentment in her. I find that I am depressed, and tired and sick more often. I can see this combination of stresses tearing our relationship apart, but I can’t seem to change it.
Dan from Detroit,
Solution: Leave Michigan, fast. Find job.
Signed,
Fellow Michigander
If your combined income exceeds your combined liabilities the “who earns more” tension should never exist. It is only when that is not true that tempers either flare or smolder as decisions have to be made about what to pay and when.
Men should not feel troubled if their wives earn more than them (even if this is only the case in 10% of couples or whatever).
The bright side of this is if there is a divorce, this will be a rare instance of the man not being financially ruined by the woman.
You’ve got to be joking! I was the high earner till 6 years ago my wife quit her 70 hr a week job to start her own business. Now the business is almost debt free and growing every year. I say ‘You go girl’. And now I’m looking at early retirment from my oil industry job of too many years of shift work. And what an example for our kids.
While we were both working I made sightly more than my wife. Since we retired in 04 she has taken a job and now makes four times as much as me. This causes no problems as she is happy doing what she is doing as am I. I now do most of the cooking and washing and when that is completed I do what ever I wish.
Lots of idealism, if not naivete, in these comments.
The last several years have seen clusters of articles on the contempt that many women have for men who earn less (both from the perspective of dating prospects and spouses), the not uncommon financial situation on the part of wives in which “what’s his is ours, what’s mine is mine, and if he doesn’t like it, family court will make it true anyway”, and the profound psychological readjustment necessary on the part of men (if not both parties) when faced with such a culturally ingrained characteristic of gender identity being changed dramatically, not to mention the ever-popular second-class (at best) treatment of men in culture and law that compounds all of these situations.
Yes, there are relationships that probably can handle this scenario, and I’m sure we’re all happy for them. But given the articles of the past few years, they aren’t the majority. The majority will not speak, any more than the bottom slope of the genital-size bell curve will pronounce their measurements.
One thing that tends to trip people up is that we don’t always recognize that money matters in ways beyond the obvious, because it reflects our _values_.
Often, very often, arguments about money are arguments by proxy between different priorities, different goals, different assumptions about what is and is not important.
That’s part of why sudden infusions of money, like large lottery wins, often have nasty effects on marriages. It’s why money arguments often crop up over and over and over, and can be so bitter.
For ex, if money represents _security_ to one partner, then spending seems foolish or threatening, and if the other partner sees money as _opportunity_ or _freedom_, then a conflict is brewing.
It’s really, really good advice for couples contemplating marriage to discuss their financial expectations _before_ they get married.
Mrs. Apostic and I have been married for fifteen years now, and for most of that time she has earned more than me. We’ve had a few advantages in this matter; therefore, my answer to the general querry for general advice is lengthy, but I include the details to support my conclusions.
1) When we got married, our wedding vows included a promise “to love, respect and honor … regardless of the changes in your lives.” If the situation for the couple becomes, for example, the wife making more than the husband, that’s just another one of those changes. And given some changes a couple might have to endure, the question of “who makes more money” is childishly minor.
2) We started out with nothing: I was an enlisted man pulling down a few dollars twice a month for saving the world, and we didn’t have much financial and material support from our families. (Long story, and this answer is plenty long already.) We accepted the fact that it was going to be a struggle at first just to get by. We promised each other we’d never argue over money.
3) Not long after we got married, the reversal happened. My wife is from New Zealand. She’s also an RN. When the bureaucracies eventually allowed her to work in the States, it was instant big bucks.
4) At this point, I learned to be thankful. If there was stress, it wasn’t bruised ego; Hell, sometimes I bragged about how successful my wife was. No, possible stress on my part has been the occasional fear she might trade up. Hasn’t happened yet, and (knock forehead) I do what I can to sidetrack this. And, no, not talking about sex; I’m just talking about being a good husband, and as far as I’m concerned, that starts with keeping my wife as my best friend. Everything else follows from that.
5) Purse strings? When my wife was growing up, she had to be the one in her family that kept book. Therefore, she’s the best person for that job in our relationship. (At least I’m a better cook….) And as I said, we promised each other we’d never argue over money. And yes we use joint accounts.
6) When I was coming to the end of my obligated military duty and considering reenlisting, my wife made me an offer that I could not refuse: She said she’d work as sole bread winner while I went to college as a fulltime student and finished my degree as quickly as possible. All I had to do in return was not reenlist and get another job that didn’t require me to vanishing for months at a time. This suggestion kind of bruised my professional military ego, but after I’d had a couple of days to think it through (another long story), I accepted her kind offer. Today I make a lot more money than I would have as an enlisted man. (Heh, and yet she still pulls down twice what I make.)
They say a good partnership is one where each party feels like it’s the one that comes out ahead on the deal. This can be true of marriage, and it applies just as much to couples where the gal earns more than the guy.
I guess if I had to give general advice to the woman who brings home a bigger slab of bacon than her husband, it’d be this: If your mutual love stumbles too much over the point of which of you makes more money, then I think you’d better ask if you two were in love to begin with. After all, a good marriage should continue “regardless of the changes in your lives.” And speaking of changes, don’t try to change your husband, but do support his choices for self-improvements. That’s true of any marriage, but maybe more true when a guy has a problem defining himself and accepting his own value.
And for the guys who find themselves in this position and are pained by bruised egos, my advice is: Dude, you should so be counting your blessings. And if you let yourself push her to the point where she leaves you because you’ve decided to (re)define yourself as a jerk, then your ego’s about to suffer more than a little bruising.
There’s a simple solution: don’t marry women who think that way. In fact, avoid them at any cost.
Amen to that.
Wow. Before I read the previous comments I’ll add a little brainstorming since my case is rather extreme. I am not married because New York does not have common law marriage. Yet I would be classified as married in most states, since I have lived in the same apartment and have joint back accounts with my Korean lawyer girlfriend. We are both about 40 and in addition to her patent-bar-included law degree, we both have Ph.D.s in chemistry from Columbia. Her yearly bonuses (not to mention massive stock options) at the best company to work for in the USA means she no longer makes 10X as much as me, like she did miserably at law firms, but her recent yearly bonus was more than I make in a year (!).
That I run my own home business making design products, allowing me to tax deduct most everything except dining out and clothing (which she pays for anyway except for my love of obscure t-shirt companies) means I pay almost no tax, so her bonus isn’t worth its dollar value as my profits indeed are. You get the idea though, of a vast gap in earning power, especially if you appreciate that we have been lovers for about 17 years, and she is quite a ladder climber.
So what’s my advice? Maintain psychological dominance. This does not mean emotional abuse. It does mean that you must, as a man, have utterly no tolerance for *being* emotionally abused or treated dismissively etc. I make enough money to not need an allowance, ah hum, but I have had to teach her, as politely as possible, that just because Madonna and Martha Stewart get $500 haircuts every month, and buy many $1200 dresses a month, that she should *save* some money, and especially in her near 50% tax bracket that a penny saved is indeed two pennies earned, a concept that formerly eluded her. Frugal, she is not, but it’s her money, so I limit myself to a little teasing and an audio book or two.
For my part, I, being a self-tooled craftsperson and product designer, have, over the years, utterly renovated the apartment. The rent for this large space with its new chef’s kitchen, two baths, hard wood floors, marble fixings, gold-painted trim and red flower fabric covered walls (not done yet) is one third the rent it should be in NYC. I save her lots of money this way!
I hate to say it but unlike men, women will come to feel what can only be called “sexual repulsion” towards a man she loses respect for, so at ALL costs, a lower-earning man (in my case because I don’t really *want* to work 10X as hard to make 10X as much money) must not ALLOW the ancient hard-wired dynamic of the “dominant” male (father figure) to slowly evaporate, for if a female loses “respect” for a male, it’s over. This has been scientifically studied as a determining factor in future divorce: if a woman shows disdain (rolling of eyes etc.) towards her husband during touchy conversations.
How does a lower-earning male like me (despite having my products regularly featured in catalogs and national magazines) escape this sort of slow slide into becoming pussywhipped? Never allow yourself to lose any self-confidence as being the physical sex called male. Believe it or not, most appealing women are attracted to masculine confidence, personal and social boldness, and self-respect, not money.
A big problem though, is that women tend to classify men as either Lovers (exciting boytoys) or as Providers (husbands). I recently realized that I had been in Lover category in my girlfriend’s mind, and having survived her biological clock crisis at 30, this latest one at 40 is serious business, so I may be at the end of a good deal. Beer. Sex. Movies. Dining. Being Spoiled, Etc. Bye bye.
A few weeks ago, during a rental movie, she said “Oh, by the way, I think I’ll move out soon.” This being about the most shocking thing I’ve ever experienced, namely the utter casualness and situation in which she said it, I insisted that she start seeing a therapist weekly, especially given that rent in NYC would then cost her thousands a month more, and that you *don’t* break up with someone during a beer-drinking rental movie session in the tone of voice akin to: “Oh, by the way, my camera memory is full.” So she’s not moving out after all, but may not consider me husband material.
I wont go into further detail such as my bewildered discovery of what passive-aggression was, but to say that I have seen many pussywhipped men who got that way all by themselves, by being utterly ashamed of themselves as people for not making more money than their girlfriend, or not being able to find good work at all, and have also witnessed those same girls getting drunk and flirting with me right in front of him. Money is not masculinity. Women are attracted to masculinity. DUH! How can you act masculine by waving around metrosexual diamond cuff links How often do rich social misfit men get laid versus poor guys who tease the hell out of every cute girl around?
One huge aspect is *how* to not tolerate disrespect, or even subtly demeaning, or demanding behavior. Do NOT react emotionally. That is exactly the opposite of what is effective. WITHDRAW attention, without becoming emotional. Leave, telling her why. In no time at all, she will cut the narcissistic crap, especially since she cannot then become *addicted* to the emotionality of upsetting you, many women being utter emotion junkies, often verging on emotional vampirism.
Having now read the other comments, I’ll add that early on, *I* paid for dining out, and when I moved in, I paid her $30K credit card bill as she was finishing law school. The comments mostly say the same thing: no big deal unless the MAN makes a big deal of it and starts to feel unnecessarily emasculated. In my case it was harder, since my relationship itself was often on life support because my girlfriend was crazy. She never showed anger, but just acted it out, so I started to go crazy and became oversensitive to slights. Therapy (for her) is helping, meaning she’s starting to understand that other people (like me) have emotions.
I do not agree with combining earnings. We have a joint bank account, but that’s just so I can get free health insurance through her company. If we combined money, I wouldn’t find it easy to see when I’m letting my business slide.
Yet another reason to support adoption of community property in your home state. Community property is a system of property ownership in which the earnings of each spouse are technically owned by the “community,” and each spouse has an undivided one-half interest in the community. Thus, unlike the common law system (where you each own what you make), each spouse owns one half of what both spouses collectively earn.
In other words, community property treats a marriage as a team. Unfortunately, there are only 9.5 community property states (Alaska has some kind of elective system, I think), so most of us do not live in one.
Leave Michigan, fast. Find job.
Yeah, getting out of Detroit would be the best thing. But family obligations and the crashed housing market will keep us here for a little while longer.
It is easy to think that an agreement was broken when the circumstances change. We had a better lifestyle and didn’t work as hard before. Now she is working harder for less. I don’t know if she blames me.
I think the main point to be made here is not that her making more money is in itself a problem. Many men would welcome the extra income and the reduced stress of not being so extended. The problem starts to arise if either spouse makes something of it.
If a man feels emasculated or resentful that the woman makes more it will lead to an argument. A women is not going to like a mopey ticked off man or one who has no confidence.
The other route of course is if the woman becomes resentful. If she thinks he is lazy, she will start being abuse, dismissive, and insultive to the husband. The anger and loss of respect will mount and end up destroying the relationship. Also you should NEVER use money as a weapon in marriage. If your husband makes less and you use that in an argument as leverage, then that will greatly sour the relationship.
Besides money what does a guy really have to bargain with in a relationship? Women always have the option of withholding sex. (Though many would say that will also send your marriage on a nosedive). The man doesn’t have that option. If you hold money over his head and sex, what power does he now have in the relationship. This will destroy the man’s confidence and place in a relationship.
Well that at least is my two cents.