Ask Dr. Helen: Should Women Get Married?
Columnist and blogger Don Surber emails to make an excellent suggestion:
Dr. Helen:
I will suggest following up your column on “Should men marry?” with “Should women marry?”
Dear Don:
I concur–we need equal time for women (or the men who are interested in the topic) to get a chance to let us know if they think that marriage is worth the gamble. If you had asked me in my teens or twenties if women should get married, I would have stated a resounding, “No!” But now that I am older and wiser and been married over thirteen years, I have to say from my own personal perspective, the answer would be “Yes” but only if your partner is the right person for you, and you understand what you are getting into.
There have been so many mixed messages over the years for women about marriage from feminists and others who, on one hand tell women to make their own decisions and be independent, but when they do want to be married or do something that goes against the grain of gender feminism are told that marriage is a trap and “a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.” This is nonsense.
Missing out on marriage because a bunch of “feminists” told you that it is the right thing to do is silly, and there is a backlash against this type of thinking now with the current crop of girls–the Millennials (those born between 1981-1999)–embracing marriage at a rapid rate. Kay Hymowitz, author of %%AMAZON=1566637090 Marriage and Caste in America%% had this to say about how young girls feel about marriage:
In fact, when it comes to families, this generation is as mushy as a Hallmark card. A Harris Interactive survey of college seniors found that 81 percent planned to marry (12 percent already had) at a mean age of 28. Ninety-one percent hope to have children-and get this: on average, they’d like to have three. The 2001 Monitoring the Future survey found 88 percent of male high school seniors and 93 percent of females believing that it is extremely or quite important to have a good marriage and family life. In a survey of college women conducted by the Institute for American Values, 83 percent said, “Being married is a very important goal for me.” Over half of the women surveyed said they would like to meet their husbands in college.
Of course, thinking you want to get married and have three kids is much different from the reality of doing so. Back to the question, “Should women get married?,” my answer is that if having a husband (and/or children) is important to a woman,then the answer is “yes” but only if you really have an understanding of what being married entails. It is not about a big engagement ring that one can show off to friends and family; it is not about a large wedding that makes a woman feel like a princess for a day; and it is not about a meal ticket or a path to a life of leisure. It is about sharing one’s life with another person, a human being, who has flaws just like you on a day to day basis and sometimes putting their needs ahead of your own. It is hard and not for the faint of heart, the selfish or the fickle. But a happy marriage is well worth the cost, for even the most introverted among us have some longing for connection with another person who cares about one’s well-being.
I will close this column with a few tips for women (and yes, there are many tips for men too, but that is another topic for another day) on things I have learned for how to have a happy marriage should you choose to go that route:
1) Encourage your husband to see friends once in a while. Just like you, men need to be with their buddies and have fun. Now, I am not talking here about carousing bars and picking up women or anything. I am talking about going out to have fun with friends, getting a beer and just feeling that he has a life outside the marriage and family.
2) Don’t call your husband continuously on his cell phone to “check up on him” when he is out with friends or others. I have noticed a negative correlation between how many times a man’s cell phone rings when he is with friends and how he feels about his marriage. No one likes to feel they are on a short leash. If a man continuously asks a woman what she is doing, when she is coming home and checks up on her non-stop, we would say he is being controlling. The same holds for women calling men. Again, I am not talking about calling your hubby up to let him know what you need from the store or tell him about an emergency etc., I am talking about calling repeatedly to ask him what he is doing or when he is coming home while he is out with friends or in business situations etc.
3) For goodness sakes, don’t write on your blog or on chat boards about the problems you are having with your relationship. I have seen a number of women do this and then wonder why their boyfriend or husband seems huffy or distant. If you have a problem, be direct and talk with him about it. Don’t spread the information to the world.
4) Finally, just try to treat the guy the way you would like to be treated and treat him like a human being with some compassion and kindness. Expect the same. Repeat as necessary.
So, what do you think, should women get married? If not, why? And if so, anyone have any tips for how women can improve their relationship with their husbands?
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If you have a question you would like answered, please leave it below or email me at askdrhelen@hotmail.com. Your questions may be edited for length and clarity. Please note that your first name only or no name at all will be used to identify your question-if you want me to use your name, tell me, otherwise you will be referred to by your first name or as “a reader” etc.
Helen Smith is a psychologist specializing in forensic issues in Knoxville, Tennessee and blogs at drhelen.blogspot.com. This advice column is for educational and entertainment purposes only and does not purport to replace therapy or psychological treatment.
I agree on all points, and believe that the above points of advice apply equally to men. Especially points three and four.
I can’t tell you how many married men I know who couldn’t say a nice thing about their wives if you put a gun to their heads. I can’t help but feel sorry for their wives (and children, for that matter, whom they seldom have a kind word about either), and I wonder who’s getting lied to; me or the spouse in question.
As a corollary, stop making fun of your wives when they make mistakes. I know it’s hard for all of you men out there who are so perfect AND odor free; surrounded by idiots as you are; but laughing at her behind her back is simply not cool.
As some one who is in the dating scene, I’d highly advise those to start contemplating about marriage a little ealier than 30. I know how hard it may be for those to settle down for reasons such as college or amid pursuing a career.You would think the older you are, the more marriage minded you become. Its not always the case. Older single tend to be pickier in terms of finding a partner. The older you are,the harder its going to be for you. The younger you are, the better catch you make.
I’m meaning no offense here.. but aren’t these things obvious? I’m not a millenial… I’m just a few years older than that…
But writing about hubby on my blog? Egads, no! Calling him constantly?? If I can’t trust him… why did I marry him? And of course he needs his buddies… I don’t always want to watch football and fart with him…
I am thankful that I grew up in the era that I did. I’m thankful for the feminists, but don’t feel any desire to make their same choices. I like my husband to be the head of the household, I believe he needs empowerment and respect and he desires it … I don’t give it at the expense of my own empowerment and respect, but I give it nonetheless.
SHOULD someone get married? It’s hard to say, it’s such a personal question. I was not ready in my first marriage. Perhaps I needed to read this column then…
That was excellent advice, Dr. Helen. I married a few months after graduating college and have been married for 29 years and have been through the best and worst of life with my husband and I wouldn’t trade it for the world.
We had three children who are all wonderful human beings, and in my 50s I am now going back to school to pursue becoming a physicians’ assistant with the full enthusiasm of my family, something I could not have accomplished coming from a dysfunctional nonsupportive home when I was in my teens.
Life is good when someone loves you and when you can love someone back.
I think the Millenials are reacting quite common-sensically against a lot of what their parents did (mine as well.) Many of them were interested in marriage but only for themselves, and ruined their marriages through selfishness. Granted, no amount of selflessness on the part of one partner can force the other to do the same…
The sad part (for my situation) was that my parents were not actually poorly matched at all. They just both had holdouts that – in the end – turned out to create an uncrossable rift between them.
If I had any advice for a woman, even though I’m not married, it would be this:
1. Watch how the guy treats wait staff, bell hops, taxi drivers, etc.
2. Find a man who is involved in other things than just himself (like video games)
3. Find a man with goals – not necessarily sky high goals, but goals that are real.
4. Allow yourselves to attract naturally, by not forcing yourself on him (or letting him force himself on you), but allowing yourselves to do things together with others – that way he can’t always be ‘on his best behavior’ and you will get to see more of the real him.
This is just my opinion as a guy from what I’ve seen with different relationships. So you can take it into consideration if you fancy it useful.
The constant calling thing I think is an excellent point; if you can’t think of any reason to call the man other than to babysit him, he’s going to feel like he’s not an equal partner.
I definitely believe women should get married; if for no other reason than the demographic decline. Besides that, there is something wonderful about two becoming one.
Women and men need to understand that they still inhabit different sub-cultures.
For goodness sakes, don’t write on your blog or on chat boards about the problems you are having with your relationship.
Men exist in a much deeper hierarchal system to women and they resent having their personal lives talked about. Women like to share experience with things such as medical problems but men don’t like to spread such things around.
It seems that traditionally, women understood this even if they did not really respect it. Many contemporary women, by contrast seem to expect men to see the all interpersonal relationships from the female perspective.
Keeping a man’s personal life private, especially in regards to other men, shows respect as few other acts do.
I would recommend putting off marriage until one is ready to have children. I know that a person can’t control whenever Mr. Right comes along, but I wish that I had waited, because once the kids come along, you’re in it for the long haul.
Now my husband’s a good guy, but five extra years of freedom would have been good for me. Thirty, thirty-five- that’s a good age to get married. Depending on who you are and what you do, there are guys all over. I’m in the sciences. I mountain biked on the weekends. No problem finding guys.
The basic think is just have a life and let him have his. Oh yeah, and it really helps if you make more than he does.
Great advice Dr. Helen.
As a 29 yr old 3 years out of a failed marriage and totally failing in the dating scene I hope those stats for people in my age group are correct. Even though part of me says I’m stupid for wanting it but I’d like to be married to a a good woman and have a family.
If I could add a couple pieces of advice I learned from my divorce.
Guys: Find out what emotinal needs your wife has and meet those. I realized much too late that emotional needs unmet in a marriage just encourages someone to find someone else to meet those needs.
Gals: Encourage your husband in his healthy hobbies. Just because you don’t like what he likes doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try to participate and enjoy them with him. For me it was video games, I would have loved if she would have played them with me, but instead she was more interested in keeping me from enjoying them rather than enjoying them with me.
If I could give a piece of advice to women it would be this: don’t assume that our minds works like yours. We’re not stupid, but we often do think and act differently, so don’t assume that our reaction (especially an initial reaction with no time for thought) will be the same one that you would have.
I was joking with my office neigbor here at work, and I said that women often make the mistake of anthromorphizing men – she replied “isn’t that when you ascribe human traits to animals”? and I said “exactly”. Obviously I was kidding, but I often do think that men will react to many situations on a baser or simpler level. It is not that we are incapable of complex thought, but rather we choose (deliberately or not, I don’t know) not to complicate an issue more than necessary. If there is something that appears to need doing, then do it, or not, but there is no need to talk to death a relatively simple question.
The same advice works in reverse – don’t assume that a woman cannot figure out a question just because she wants to talk it through (what may seem to you ad naseum). In any case, just realize that you are not marrying a clone of yourself with different reproductive organs – and try to have fun, for god’s sake.
I would say, “yes,” women should get married, and most of my advice would be obvious. The key is marrying the right person, of course.
The biggest thing I would advise is not to “roll the dice.” As it says in the book, “How to avoid marrying a jerk,” there is a hierarchy in relationships. This is “know-trust-rely-commit-touch.”
If you trust someone more than you know them, you’re gambling with your life. If you rely on someone more than you trust them, you’re asking for trouble. If you commit to someone who has shown themselves unreliable, you’re practically begging to marry a jerk.
If you’re looking for a marriage, it’s only when the know-trust-rely-commit attributes are in the right order that you should allow the hormones of sex to get involved. Don’t let sex drive the relationship. Let the relationship, um, drive the sex.
One last thing, and this may balance out the above analysis: If you can ease that women’s tendency to overthink the relationship, you’ll do better than if you think, “Oh, he forgot that, so that means I can’t trust him.”
Take a look at your man and figure out if you know him, he’s trustworthy, reliable and keeps his commitments. And remember, men may be honest and loyal in one area, and not in others. Don’t over-generalize. The guy who wouldn’t dream of cheating anyone out of a dime may think nothing of boffing your best friend, and vice versa.
My two cents. YMMV.
Good advice, Dr. I’d add that for today’s woman, she should probably decide how she feels about video games and online porn, how she’s going to communicate and enforce those boundaries, and where she is prepared to draw the line. These two temptations seem to go to the heart of the mystical male-female divide, and are probably at the root of a lot of unhappiness. Just my 2 cents.
All good advise above. The only thing I could think to add is: Don’t marry someone due your your unspoken perception of their “potential” and then try to force him to change everything about himself according to your ideas on how to make him “perfect”. He may fall in line at first trying to please you, but eventually, he will resent you and such behavior may kill the relationship.
If you don’t love him for being himself, don’t marry him.
Great suggestions, RiverC.
I think most people, men and women, are happier in good marriages, so yes, women should get married.
My advice for those considering marriage seriously is to make sure that you and your partner are in sync on the 3 big Fs: faith, family, and finances.
Faith: it doesn’t matter what religion you belong to, if any, or how observant you are, if at all — what matters is that you are compatible in your attitudes towards belief and practice. If you are not morally compatible, the marriage will be on rocky grounds.
Family: this is a two-parter. First, your own family (as soon as you get married, you are a new family). Are you going to have children? When? How many? Obviously the plan may not survive reality — once children enter the picture, you may decide to have more, or fewer, than you originally intended, or other situations may come up that cause you to change your plans. But you need to talk about these things before hand. You can’t get married expecting to have 2 kids and suddenly find out your husband doesn’t want any, or doesn’t want any for 10 years.
The second part of “family” has to do with the extended families, yours and his. Watch how your potential spouse interacts with his or her family, and you’ll get a good idea of how things will settle in at your own household. Particularly watch the relationship between mothers and sons, that can be an indicator of a how a man will treat his wife. It’s also important to negotiate how often you’ll see relatives, and where you’ll go for the holidays. You’d be surprised how many people have huge problems in their marriages over the pressures that their extended families put on them.
The last F is finances: don’t just assume everything is OK, get married, and find out that he (or she) has thousands of dollars of credit card debt and student loans in arrears. You need to disclose all your debts. You need to understand your mate’s job stability situation, and their potential for growth in income. If it’s just you, you can do what you want and no one else cares, but if someone else is relying on you for a share of the household expenses, you can’t just quit your job in a huff. Speaking of shared household expenses — figure that out, too. I know a lot of couples have separate checking accounts and credit cards and divvy everything up, but I have never understood that, particularly if one member is only working part-time or is at home taking care of children. I think keeping finances separate creates an artificial division in the family and an opportunity for conflict — it is very easy for someone to think that their spouse is being sneaky about how he or she is spending his or her money. If it’s all in one account, there is complete transparency. Of course that makes it harder to surprise someone with gifts, but is that really such a big deal?
Before my husband and I got married 13 years ago, we had pre-nuptial counseling through my church. One of the exercises we did together had us rate a list of about 100 things as either necessary, useful, desirable, or a luxury. The list covered all sorts of things, like owning a house, buying new clothes every season, going out for dinner frequently, etc — pretty much anything you could spend money on. It was an excellent springboard for discussion. My husband at the time said a computer at home was necessary, whereas I thought it was a luxury; he was ahead of his time and was already keeping all of his finances in the computer. The point was to highlight the differences and get us to talk about them. Plus, seeing on paper the things that were most important (necessary) helps you to figure out how and where you’re going to be spending your money together.
If there are tremendous differences in your two lists, you’ll have a lot of conflict; do you have what it takes to negotiate through them all? Does it make sense for you to be together, if your priorities are so different?
I think using the 3Fs and the necessary/useful list are good ways to determine fundamental compatibility.
“I’m meaning no offense here.. but aren’t these things obvious?”
Heather, yes, it is bizarre isn’t it?” The article has to teach women: “Finally, just try to treat the guy the way you would like to be treated and treat him like a human being with some compassion and kindness.”
Our culture, thanks to Feminism (Femarroidism) has poisoned women beyond repair to the point that they no longer seem to be able to treat men with any respect at all. Women have been constantly propagandized to this false sense of superiority. Every commercial, every cultural cue, degrades men as if they are subhuman and oafs, who deserve zero respect, when ironically, it doesn’t say anything for the average woman’s intelligence if she can be so easily influenced by popular culture to treat the most important man in her life like garbage with no conscious or accountability, not to mention the fact it doesn’t say much for a woman when in essence she is saying she chose an idiot and a POS (in her own words). It’s like some weirdo right of passage for women today to crap on their first husband just so she can say she was a ‘hero’ for having been ‘abused’ (barf) when it is women that have become nightmarish abusive, not men.
You can say this is not true, but then you are not a man- you have no idea what it is like. It must have felt like this for Jews under Hitler- treated like idiots and demeaned as sub-human. Then you go into a marriage with this basic attitude already and then your surprized there’s a 60% divorce rate and women initiate 70% of the divorces?!?
If you’re a woman, don’t chat to your mother about the specific errrm….ins and outs of your sex life. I know this is a girly bonding thing; but trust me, this WILL really piss him off!
There seems to be a lot of good advice on this thread, but I will just add this: For heaven’s sake–do not talk to your mother about problems with your husband! Sisters too, can be problematic.
I’m not saying that if you are struggling you should not talk to anyone, ideally, talking it out with your husband would be sufficient. But a wise woman knows that once words are said, they cannot be taken back and often it is more wise to talk things through with a trusted friend who knows you and your husband (and respects both) before you have a conversation with him about a conflict. After seven years of marriage, I have learned that talking things through with a trusted friend can help me to clarify a situation without lashing out at my mate. My mother, however, is not objective and will most likely take my side. Therefore, ladies, don’t talk to your mom! She only needs to know the basics and you want her to like your husband after the fight.
I married my husband when I was 24 and he was 31. That was over five years ago, it was the best decision I’ve ever made.
Everything I’ve wanted to do– go back to school, write a novel, travel the world– he’s encouraged me made possible by supporting me emotionally, and, when I was in school and not working, financially as well.
When I felt guilty about not contributing financially to our household, he kept reminding me that he was investing in both of our futures, and that when I made a fortune from selling the great American novel, he’d have no problem spending it.
I’ve supported him in a lot of ways, too. When he left his job for a risky sounding plan for self-employment, I supported him. I don’t bother him when he needs to travel for long periods for work. I encourage him to be his own person, but when he needs a little mothering , I’m happy to do that for him, too.
A few pieces of advice (in addition to Dr Helen’s, which I loudly second):
1. Don’t fight in public. It shows such a lack of respect for your relationship and for your spouse. Also, it’s mortifying to have others know your intimate problems, and it’s very uncomfortable for the people who have to listen.
2. When you fight, and you will, stick to the issue at hand. Don’t bring up everything bad that person has done from the beginning of the relationship. Don’t resort to ad hominem attacks. Don’t say anything cruel that will stick in his mind long after you’ve resolved the issue that prompted the fight.
3. Understand that your husband is not a pet and is not a project. Marry him the way he is. Sure, you can teach him to be more considerate about leaving his dirty clothes around the house, or get him to accept that you find certain jokes hurtful even though he thinks they’re funny. But he’s never going to turn into mister romantic if he wasn’t when you met him. He isn’t all of a sudden going to learn to love the opera because you do. Make sure you love him exactly the way he is. And if you can’t live with him that way, marry someone else.
4. Give each other space. If he wants to watch football on Sunday, and you want to g hiking, invite his buddies over to watch the game, and go hiking with their wives. Just because you’re married, doesn’t mean you have to do everything together. Find time for both of you to enjoy your own pursuits, and don’t make each other feel guilty about them.
5. Spend enough time together. Have a date night once a week. Even if you just go for coffee at the local diner, get out of the house, sit face to face, and talk, or crack jokes, or do whatever it is you used to like to do when you were dating.
What I love most about our marriage is that we’re always laughing. We try not to take things to seriously. I think following all of the suggestions above has helped keep things fresh and fun, even though we’ve been through our fair share of tough times.
Being an older woman (mid 50s) and in a second, very successful and happy marriage, here is my 2 cents for women.
1. Expect that your guy will have some minor faults and foibles, just as you do. No one is perfect.
2. Also realize that you are not going to “change” or “improve” your mate. If you go into a relationship with the idea that you can “fix” your mate you are doomed. Really…just how important is it that he leaves his underwear on the floor or doesn’t help you load the dishwasher in the big scheme of things when your mate has many other fabulous qualities. Learn to pick your battles, so to speak and determine if this is really where you want to take a stand.
3. Give each other breathing space. It isn’t necessary to be joined at the hip and smother each other. There is nothing wrong with having some separate interests and activities. Just because he wants to occasionally hang out and talk hot rods (in the case of my guy) doesn’t mean he loves you any less. If you love him try to cultivate some interest in his hobbies. Now if he (or you) are devoting ALL your time to the hobby or friends to the exclusion of your mate, then there is a problem
4. I can’t stress how important this is to the young couples thinking of getting married. Discuss just what your vision of marriage and children is. You want to be on the same page. Is his idea of children that you will be a stay at home, giving up your career ambitions? Is that your idea too? How about the division of labor in the home. Do you expect that he will help with the laundry and he has no intention of ever doing such a thing? Do you as the woman hate to cook and he expects you to create all the meals. Maybe he expects that you will continue working and isn’t really interested in creating children. How much sex do you or he expect to have in a married relationship. So on and so on.
Nothing will create tension and lead to divorce more than to find out belatedly that you have diametrically opposed views of what your marriage should look like with children added to the mix. For God’s sake!!!! discuss this before having children and before getting married.
Last but not least..ladies… marriage is not all about you or all about you either guys. It is a compromise every single day.
Since Dr. Helen is handing out advice some here find obvious, let me hand out my own obvious piece of advice as a husband:
Don’t withhold physical intimacy for a prolonged period of time without a very good reason.
Because you’re mad at him is not a very good reason. Do what it takes to stop being mad.
Marriage is not all about sex, certainly. But without sex, it usually won’t be much of a marriage.
On a related note, the silent treatment is a reliable marriage-killer also.
Generally, her advice was good, but obvious (but then again, sadly, a lot of women I dated really didn’t “get it” that marriage was more than just diamond rings and a big party.)
Her advice has a big hole in it namely the “find the right man” part. That’s “the catch”, isn’t it? Young women in our culture are LOUSY about finding the “right” men. Too many sleep around or on the opposite end, they’re passive or even worse, passive aggressive.
Relationships begin BEFORE we meet someone because we bring ourselves to the relationship and that’s a lifetime work. Since most career women still expect a man to be a decent breadwinner (and in many cases, have to compete with her), the supply of such men are rather scarce and sitting around waiting for the fish to hop into the bucket isn’t going to work.
In addition, since it’s that much more difficult for men to earn a living due to feminism and the family court system punishes young men who marry, these women really need to work on their own personalities. A proper guest, especially if the man is paying (and most so-called liberated women prefer this), doesn’t whine about how he treats the waiter because she should be busy engaging in pleasant dinner conversation, bringing a dinner gift (even if just a card saying thank you for his generosity), etc.
Congrats to Dr. Helen Smith for observing that a social contract that’s all benefits for women and few if any legal liabilities is a good thing for women, but now it’s a question of getting qualified “right” men to sign on the dotted line in time…
Interesting how different this discussion is from “Should Men Get Married?”. Here we have much good, commonsense stuff about relationships and getting along–I love it!–but nothing comparable to the bear traps discussed earlier about the risks men face in marriage in America today: losing one’s children and financial well-being when the wife files for divorce as she is twice as likely to.
Let me just say that so far, many of these comments and recommendations are terrrific and much more detailed than those I offered. Many of you found my advice obvious–maybe that’s why you have a good marriage!– but from my experience with troubled married couples, many of the wives whose husbands resent them did have problems with the issues I outlined. Please keep the suggestions coming as there may be young women out there who need to know these things, even if they seem obvious to those of us with good marriages.
Helen,
I posted the following over at your blog. My links to sources were stripped out in process of posting here.
You ask the question: should women marry? Well, looking at the data, the answer is a resounding yes, for them and especially for their children.
One of the effects of the feminist assault on marriage that I find dramatically ironic is that it has resulted in women, children, and men being treated worse and facing more hardship and exposed to more social pathologies than ever before.
Another irony of the feminist assualt on marriage is that it has tended to disinvest men in family and, by extension, in society. This tends to breed men who have higher rates of crime, a higher risk of acquiring a social pathology of one kind or another, and lower overall academic achievement, making them less attractive as marriage partners for women who, even today, still marry up to a “success object”. And you have seen for yourself on your site the reluctance of many men to wed as a result of the feminist-legal combine.
The final characteristic of the decline in marriage is that it is self-perpetuating. Children raised in single-parent homes are apt to repeat that pattern. Also, many more women than men see a man’s involvement in the upbringing of children as optional.
The real question, from my perspective, is not that “should women marry?”. It is “why are women shunning marriage at least as much as the men are?”
That women greatly benefit financially from the breakup of a marriage is undisputed, but you generally need to be married first to do that. Perhaps governmental influence is part of the problem, as generous “child support”–in reality, hidden alimony–is extracted from a father and awarded to a mother regardless of her marital status, or whether she kicked him out of his home and out of his children’s lives involuntarily. In addition, government programs using monies paid by mostly male taxpayers have steadily been supplanting men’s direct financial contribution in the home for generations. Many of these programs are targeted only for women, and single mothers are by far the recipients of this largesse.
I think another factor that leads women to shun marriage is that women as a group still have a tendency to marry up, in either income or class. However, given that many women make more than men these days, and graduate from college at substantially higher rates, it is becoming more and more difficult for women to find men who fit the “superior to me” criteria.
Some say early marriage is good, some say not to get married too young.
There was a time when men and women were considered adults, competent in life skills and ready for marriage and family and all the responsibilities that go along with those, at 18. Not so much anymore, though such people do exist.
I’m sure I’m not the only person who married at 22 and divorced by 25 because “it was time to get married” only to discover the guy I’d married was… just a jerky guy;
Age is not so critical; maturity is. Surely those wanting children shouldn’t wait too long; I beat the odds when I married at 39 and had babies at 41 and 43. I wouldn’t suggest that as a strategy, but, it worked for me.
And that’s all we can share here – what worked or is working for us. Be a grownup when you marry, and marry a grownup. A man with friends is good; a guy with a gang of drinking buddies without whom he can’t spend a Saturday night is bad. A computer geek can be good; a guy addicted to gaming is not. Women need to learn to tell the difference. Seek premarital counseling (it’s not just for “religious” folk) to recognize problem areas before they become problems and learn how to deal with them – or discover you can’t. Expend more time and energy planning the marriage than the wedding.
One suggestion I would add for both men and women, is to honestly analyze your expectations and discuss them with your future spouse, especially concerning children, knowing it may end the relationship.
I failed to do this and have paid a real psychological price for the past 20+ years (our children have created a real conflict about this in my mind. I should never have married my wife, but I wouldn’t give up my kids for the world, no matter how much they drive me crazy.)
My two cents is that anyone considering marriage should spend some time and map out (in as much detail as possible) what they *expect* from marriage in general and from a particular marriage partner.
Here’s the hard part. You then need to *TELL* the would be spouse what you expect. Then, the two of you need to hash out the differences. If they are un-hashable, don’t get married.
This won’t guarantee success, but you will at least avoid some surprises.
Potential topics to cover
Sex (frequency, etc)
Money
- What do you plan to buy in your life
- Who pays the bills
- Does your share of the earning equal your share of the decision making?
- How much to spend on: savings, home, car….
Religion/Politics
- What do you believe?
- What do you not believe?
- What is important to you?
Children
- Any? How Many?
- schools
- discipline
- religion
Holidays
- Where?
- With whom?
Careers
- Who does what and for how long?
- Career related moves
- Job loss or Career change.
Household
- Chores
- Who lives with you (esp blended families)
“Don’t let sex drive the relationship. Let the relationship, um, drive the sex.”
Well, IBBill is sort of right, but I would put it differently, because this is, as Sofasleeper seems to understand, the are where women have the most clear and obvious power. In most marriages, there is a clear libido mismatch; most of the time (something like >70%) the husband is unhappy with how it has turned out.
Wife, if you want a happy marriage, don’t have sex only when you feel like it. If that is your idea, taught by all 1970′s feminist euthenic literature, you will be miserable, your husband will be more miserable, and you will likely also end up divorced. You ain’t gonna feel like it when he does unless you are one of the small minority of wives. Find out what he expects BEFORE getting married, and decide whether you can handle it- if you can’t, don’t kid yourself that it will work out anyway; instead, don’t get married, period.
And feel free to extract your own form of consideration- you are making a promise that doesn’t match your natural inclinations, it is only fair that he should reciprocate. If you want pedicures three times a week just before fooling around, demand it.
In fact, better yet, execute a pre-nup that explicitly addresses money, sex, and power. And then, after you have signed it, every time there is a fight, go back and read it, and see who is in breach.
In response to Deb’s comments that you should not get married until you are ready to have children and 30-35 Years old is the best time for that.
That is great thinking if suddenly one day you wake up and decide to find Mr. Right, and you think it is going to take ten minutes.
Also before you agree with her, you may want to look at the fertility rate for women 30-35.
There are lots of little adopted Chinese girls here now for a reason. People waited too long and have fertility problems.
I agree with anon above, but let me add that people getting married need to understand that things change. For example, are you perfectly compatible sexually? Great. Now think about the fact that this is going to change over time. It can change in many different ways, but a common pattern is this: the man’s desire for sex remains pretty constant, a woman’s desire drops quite a bit after she has a few kids and is dealing with those little rascals all the time. Now what?
Are you perfectly compatible financially? Good for you. That’s going to change. Eventually, when you start to make more money, one of you will want to save more than the other. The person who wants to save more will be frustrated by the spending habits of the person who wants to live a little. Now what?
My point is just that you should assess compatibility now, but you should also think about how you will handle the incompatibilities that are definitely going to arise down the line. Sex and finances are the two biggies. They’ll both be an issue down the line no matter how perfectly in synch you are with your “soul mate” today. It’s worth thinking about.
I think it’s the ideal for both men and women to get married and be happy together. Our current social atmosphere, unfortunately, does a whole lot to make that difficult to do. Instead of echoing what has already been ably said by others, I’ll just add:
Ladies, if you subscribe to the fallacy that you can ‘tell’ what your man is thinking, without asking, you need to stop before even considering marriage. Nothing is as infuriating as having motives – usually of the unsavory sort – ascribed to yourself that no amount of discussion can sway you from that belief. You’re not mind-readers; mind-readers don’t exist. The Oprah/Dr. Phil Psychological Diagnosis is best left to daytime TV shows. There is no more sure way to alienate your man than to presume to read his motives and thoughts without, y’know, asking what his motives and thoughts are.
Also, take a moment and, without thinking it through, quickly list the five reasons you want to be married. If all of those reasons have to do with what he can do for you and not one of them has to do with what you can do for him, step back and rethink what marriage is all about. It’s a two-way street. A good man will get enormous satisfaction from contributing to your happiness, and he expects the same from you. After all, marriage is ultimately about supporting each other and making your spouse happy that you are in their life.
Years ago, I read a book titled Human Intimacy by Victor L. Brown, Jr. He made the point that real intimacy is more than sex or infatuation, and only comes over time as we live with each other and learn to lower our everyday masks.
He writes that two things are required: risk and commitment. Risk, because we take take risk of being hurt when we lower our defenses and reveal our real selves to our partner. Commitment, because we will inevitably suffer some pain in the process of revealing our hearts and, assuming the other person is not a psychopath or abusive, but a person also seeking intimacy in good faith, we must be willing to keep trying and learning about each other.
Sorry about posting again so quickly, but I thought it was important. Dr. Brown decried the emphasis on romance in our society, because it creates false expectations in young people, who expect everything to be heavenly when they marry and discover that their beloved is also a human being with human weaknesses and different expectations from their own.
I’ve often thought the we don’t “fall” in love, like falling into a mud puddle, but we “grow” in love over years of commitment and learning to be unselfish.
Excellent advice Dr. Helen! Two points especially, don’t talk to your friends/family about your husband’s troubles. That is my number one pet peeve with my wife. I hate it but she won’t stop. Fortunately she has plenty of good points too, but it is so invasive.
The other is, don’t stop your husband from having friends. I know so many men who once they are married are immediately cut off from all male friendship. They have work, family, and nothing else. Very sad, and totally unnecessary.
A man who tried to prevent his wife from having girlfriends would be considered a jerk, or worse. A woman doing the same in reverse seems to be OK.
Anon2
I was going to say some of what you added, but I thought that adding a bunch of “what ifs” to what I already wrote might be overwhelming.
It is true, there is a saying that men marry expecting that she will never change, while women marry expecting that he will.
In truth, both men and women change and so do their preferences and expectations.
Libidinous men can experience a drop off in desire, while their wives can experience the exact opposite.
Casually religious persons can become very observant quickly and vice versa.
Some spouses react with aplomb to these changes, for others it prompts divorce proceedings.
AST
I agree, an unrealistic expectation of storybook romance is *very* un-helpful to a marriage. A better ideal, I think would be for a person to look for someone whom they respect enough to play second fiddle to, but who is kind enough to not want that.
Anyone who wouldn’t accept being “second” to a spouse from time to time, shouldn’t be married to them.
Wot? To men? Are you mad?
I want to add to my comment that said (in summary)
Become the “right” man/wife and market oneself accordingly. Day old bread hidden in the back of your fridge won’t have many buyers either. Women, start developing and marketing your social skills EARLY. Play the dating game like a competition with a time clock. MEN, you have more time and use it wisely to develop your income and wisdom but don’t wait too long. There’s a reason why there are so many single women in their 30′s and you don’t want to shop there. Try to start looking to settle down when you’re able to still date local women in their early 20′s, and foreign women in their early 30′s.
As AST pointed out, even the “right” person is going to have their up and down days. Too many women act as if marriage is just a permanent date. One woman I know is an actual television psychologist who complained that after the first 3 dates, the guy didn’t put as much effort into impressing her as he did before they went to bed.
Of course, that’s no excuse for couples not bringing flowers, or going out for a treat every week, or making a special dinner, etc but a lot of people seem to break up just because the “magic isn’t there” anymore.
I have a friend whose marriage basically dissolved and after a while, they just gave up. There wasn’t any strong glue holding them together.
Now I know men are giving the women a tough time here, but these little social graces were traditionally in the realm of the woman. She was supposed to make sure the holiday decorations were put up, the house clean, and a romantic meal set up.
Too many women act like, well, men. Not necessarily out of intent, but the fact is that if you quack like a duck, waddle like a duck, etc. you’ll start to become a duck. The problem, though, is that these women don’t live UP TO men. They don’t want to accept the role of breadwinner and because men still have to work, just as in the 50′s, there’s not much benefit for us either.
I’ll admit it, I’m no Tyrone Powers (or for those not fans of classic cinema, Brad Pitt) so I had to learn all these social graces to find and keep a decent woman. In a way, it’s good I wasn’t able to take life for granted. What we have is a culture where nearly all the women (and a lot of the men) take decent relationships for granted and are nothing more than work droids. Some of them may get lucky like a blind pig finding an acorn and some will more likely become a part of that 60% divorce statistic. It’s the cards life dealt you, play them well.
There’s no downside to women’s marrying anyone. Marry him.
If he’s a jerk, then just divorce him later and taking half his money; if not, enjoy.
Women have nothing to lose at all, and much to gain.
Wow, I knew I had picked up a good woman, but she follows each and every precept you offered instinctively. She even nags sometimes that I don’t spend enough time with my friends.
That’s real love ^_^
Managing expectation is the name of the game, as you can see in so many responses. The problem lies in that part of humanity that thinks if you never ask the question, you don’t have to know the answer. We all have that inside of us.
Remember that you are looking for a partner, not a slave. It is not their responsibility to make you happy, even though they will probably actually TRY to make that happen. You are not flip sides of a coin, you are two different coins… together, you make something larger. You can call it a partnership, or a unit, or commonly a family. The key is to put forth effort in building and keeping that unit. If one person always takes, and the other always gives, suddenly you arent a unit anymore.
The talk about expectations is very important, but EVEN MORE IMPORTANT!
Don’t LIE about it.
Just to placate or get what you want. If you are planning to quit working and have kids, and never go back to work, you should communicate that. Not only to him, but to yourself.
For the most part, men have no option but to work their whole lives. Nobody asks us if we would like to stay home and raise the kids. It works out because many guys aren’t interested in doing that anyway. However. It doesn’t hurt to acknowledge the fact. As a generalization, men don’t need flowers, or chocolates, or a hallmark gift for sweetest day. The simple thank you, can reverberate in the mind for a very long time.
The bottom line is yes, virginia, get married. But go in with your eyes open, not only to him, but also yourself.
The thread running through the comments is about change, I believe, and there is an old saw about it:
Men get married hoping the woman won’t change herself.
Women get married assuming the man will change himself for her.
Both are wrong since everyone changes regardless. The difference is in how you accept this fact…
The contrast between the “should men marry” and “should women marry” comment threads is striking, and instructive.
As a rough estimate (not counting those who commented multiple times), the answer for the men was No by a factor of about 2 to 1, but for the women the answer is an assumed Yes, along with advice on how to go about doing so successfully (the wit of Dan Collins notwithstanding).
This is a deep divide and does not bode well for our society.
I met my wife 20 years ago and knew immediately that she would be the woman I would marry, I even told my best man so the minute I laid eyes on her as he related to our families at our wedding. I got lucky that way.
When you fall in love with someone it’s easy to get along. You don’t look for fault, in fact you’re blind to it. Then one day you come to your senses, she isn’t the ideal you fell in love with, nor are you the perfect man she thought you’d be. You’re both imperfect human beings. If you’re lucky and you’re smart, you begin to look for and find other qualities despite the imperfections. In addition to love, which can be fickle, comes respect and admiration and that makes all the difference.
No one told me this, but I learned that marriage is much more a partnership than a love affair. Long weekends on the cape are easy since you have one goal, to have fun together. Marriage has many goals, some conflicting. Work, school, children, money, dishes, laundry, sex, chick flick or film noir, everything is a negotiation. You both had better be at least in the same book, if not on the same page if you want to have a successful marriage. If you want 15 children and your spouse wants none or if you want quality of life in Maui and he or she must be in NYC, you’re probably screwed. Compromise has it’s limits, so know who you are marrying. It’s been said that women marry men expecting to change them, men marry women expecting them not to change, both are disappointed.
Commitment is everything. If you are truly committed to being happily married, you do those things you don’t want to do, laundry, chick flicks, to make it happen. A load of laundry does not a marriage make, but if your spouse wants to know if you have his/her back, clean underwear is as good a place to start as any. Commitment also means you don’t do those things you may want to do. If you’re single college buddies are flying off to Vegas for a bachelor party, as a married man it may behoove you not to attend. Will anything untoward happen there? Not if you don’t go. Commitment means that even when it would be really easy to blow this pain in the ass relationship off, you don’t. You do the work and clean up your messes. Commitment means that failure is not an option, when it creeps in as an option you are no longer committed.
Get married if you want to. It is a great institution, in spite of some problems.
My advice for women thinking of marriage is simple “Do not assume you know more!”
So many times back when I was dating I would have a woman who had never raised a child think that she, being female, knew more about child rearing than I who had actually raised kids!
That same factor is always a problem in gender politics. Women so often assume that they know more than a guy who has actually been out in the political trenches fighting for people’s rights.
Do not assume you know more. I’d suppose that is great advice for the men too.
Assuming we’re talking American/western women here, the answer is “No”, because any man dumb enough to get married under 21st century feminist jurisprudence is probably either clueless or a loser.
On the other hand, if you are looking for some easy money, are a good liar, want total control over a male, and/or think what America really needs is more money for lawyers, then go for it, at least until it feels inconvenient or something better comes along, then cash him in at a nearby gender-based courthouse for being foolish enough to marry you in the first place.
Should women marry – yes.
(DcFather, wow, you must have had a really bad experience…sorry)
I’m recently divorced (July ’07) but should have been divorced almost 7 years earlier. The problems my ex-wife and I had were mostly on the expectations front. We did talk about it and, stupid me, I ignored or discounted some of her answers. The other problems came from back-ground. There had only been 1 divorce in my parent’s generation and only 1 in my generation. My ex’s mother has been married 4 times.
So, my additional two cents for women is to make sure you check into your intended’s family a little bit. Find out if he’s been raised with commitment to marriage as a very important thing. (Men, do the same)
My ex and I are still good friends and we actually work better together now that we aren’t married.
For the record, I filed, not my ex. I finally decided it was better for both of us to split than to stay miserable. Thankfully, the only children we had/have are pets with fur and four legs.
No, I don’t think they should marry because it is a fine line between aborting a child and an adult in the family court—and ironically, the women have the ‘power’ to do both. The women come to the marriage with a distinct advantage and as such one would ask, then why should they not marry? Well, if they had any honor or character at all they would admit the reality of the current dysfunction in our society and within the family courts. So this is what I predicate my injunction upon, if they have honor, character, accountability, altruism and self-lessness then they should not marry because they would know that since they are at a distinct advantage over the well-being and natural rights of their would be children and their would be husband, they should have some character and abstain from marriage until the current situation is rectified. Don’t hold your breathe though because women are known to allow their passions to cloud their intellect in pursuit of those things they deem to be ‘good.’ So, obviously the inverse statement would be for men to not get married and I am merely suggesting that a woman should not get married either in the current situation if they were altruistic—but don’t hedge your bets on that one for it is not the ‘modern’ ethic and as such, women are incable of discerning what to do next—that is to say, they are incapable of doing or pursuing something they don’t want and if it is a child to fulfill their nature, woe to that child and father for hers is maternal bolshevism allied with judicial bolshevism.
I find it interesting how much talk there is on this thread about “soul mates” and finding the “perfect” mate or Mr. Right. The thread on men marrying had a lot more pragmatic advice. Just an observation.
I love my husband very much. Right now, he is laying on the couch snoozing and the house is quiet because the two-year-old is asleep and the dogs have been fed. Ask me if I loved him quite so much about 3 hours ago after tripping over the shoes he left in the hallway for 1000th time while trying to get dinner on the table and listening to the beagle who wanted to chase a cat who had gotten into the backyard.
The point is: Marriage is a contract. Feelings come and go. Commitment to that contract cannot waver unless some terrible breach has occurred. Not being “happy” is not a breach. Happy is a feeling that may come and go and I hope and pray that people choose their marriage partner with their head and not their heart.
I hope and pray that those out there who may be considering marriage (men or women) would look at some of the advice of some of the really experienced married people here and take it to heart. There is a lot of good advice here.
By all means, ladies, marry. Make sure the guy makes or has more money than you. This is a historical bias and no need to stop now. If you want children, have them and once things start to diverge from your lofty expectations, divorce, take the house and the kids. You can always watch daytime TV and talk to your girlfriends about how bad men are to assuage any remaining guilt you may have. Happy hunting!
If women are advised to marry 2 times more than men are advised to do so, the answer is obvious:
Each man who marries should marry 2 wives! Polygamy is the obvious solution.
Men take until age 40 or later to mature to marriage readiness. Many women are ready at 20-25 (if they avoid academic lobotomy and psychological neoteny).
“People” marry.
“Commodities” merely exchange temporarily legal advantages.
This entire thread is less about marriage than it is about the economic tyranny that corrupts everything in ordinary life.
(How can wage-slaves proclaim “love everlasting?” Marriage is for poor people…)
Marriage is also merely the foreplay for a feminist-inspired no-fault divorce nowadays.
And the necessary dissimulation to harvest the man’s assets.
There is no reason for any man to marry, unless he is a masochist by nature.
I rode in the backseat of a car on the way back from a church activity once with a guy who spent much of the time talking about his wife. It was fun to just listen to him gush about his wife, particularly because he was not a newlywed, having three kids and being married for ten years. If I wanted advice about how to have a good marriage, I’d more readily consult him than all the speakers the church brought in about this subject.
It must be understood that the main (non-physical) difference between the sexes is emotional complexity. Think of a persons emotions as a machine. A mans emotional machine is a fairly simple thing, only about a dozen moving parts. At least one of these is money, another is sports and at least three more deals with sex.
By comparison a womans emotional machine is made up of hundreds, perhaps thousands of moving parts. As with any sufficiently complex system, it is impossible to predict how it will react in a given situation. Her emotional machine is so intricate, so Rubegoldberg in its construction, that she sometimes has emotions even she can not adequately describe. It is even more common for her to be at a loss to explain the reasons for her emmotions. By comparison the man is a near perfect zen construct, living in the now and concerned with little beyond the current problem before them.
Thus, asking a man to understand a womans emotional needs is a bit like asking a chimp to fly a 747 through a thunderstorm. There are shrieking sirens, flashing lights,… the chimp has this feeling that something terrible is happening but he has no idea what the hell is going on. In desperation he begins slapping buttons and pulling levers in a vain attempt to get this huge, incomprehensible thing to turn away from danger. If anything goods comes out of it all its due mainly to dumb luck.
And that by the way is why men buy flowers. They seem to work. We dont know why they work (neither do the women who recieve them) but we remember that tactic working in the past so we give it another go.
So remember ladies, when you ask your guy what he’s thinking while he’s staring off into space, he’s telling you the truth. Nothing, he’s thinking about nothing. It’s not that women are smarter or men are dolts. Men just have quiter minds.
Women can easily marry, settle for Mr. Good Enough, or whomever they want, because if it doesn’t work out, she will end up with the kids and his money. Of course, she hopes to choose well, but if she doesn’t, then she still comes out OK.
For the groom, however, it’s “game over”. He will quite likely end up paying for a family he does not have. And if he does not roll over and give her everything she every dreamed of and more, she will use the Silver Bullet against him (false accusation), ruining him forever. It never happens, you say? Guess again. It happen all the time.
It’s absolutely terrifying to read at the beginning of this article that so many young boys expect to marry one day. They have been taught by their single moms that “if they only choose well”, that everything will work out fine. Unfortunately, nothing could be further from the truth. His chances are no better than anyone else’s (around 65%) that he will end up paying for a family he does not have, while she gets his assets, the children, all the control, and most of his take home income, come the inevitable divorce.
We desperately need “Masculine Studies” on college campuses for as long as “Women’s Studies” are on college campuses. Are we about equality or are we not, folks? These young male victims in waiting must learn of the horrors that await them should they foolishly choose to tie the knot and agree to a financial arrangement that obligates him for life, but that does not bind her to any responsibility whatsoever, in marriage or come the inevitable divorce.
Note that even though these polled young men said that they thought marriage was important, they have not tied the knot. Because marriage no longer makes sense for men, most of these boys polled will not in fact marry. A chart of the marriage rate looks like a death spiral, and for good reason. Women are no longer marrying, not because women are “strong beautiful and courageous”, but rather because men are no longer asking them.
So of course women should marry. For women, it’s a can’t lose proposition. But for men, it’s “game over”. The only winning move in a game you cannot win is to not play.
And this is why the Men’s Marriage Strike will continue indefinitely until the laws change.
Where have u guys been? women are makeing more money and in most cases support these losers who call them selves men. Did we not see what happen in case with hally berry and she dont have any children yets shes paying alliomony to a cheater but i call it child support for any man who cant stand on his own two. while a women may be more likely to file for divorce usally
and fellas why are you so bitter about marriage i mean really the woman has to work cause gone are the days were a man can support his family then after the divorce she’s stuck with your children so i ask whose suppose to feed and care for them and guys are complainting about helping the family they broke apart and care for the children the helped bring into the world and stop being afraid to grown up