Ask Dr. Helen: Should Men Get Married?
“It has become a kind of religion that you can’t criticise because then you become a traitor to the great cause, which I am not.
“It is time we began to ask who are these women who continually rubbish men. The most stupid, ill-educated and nasty woman can rubbish the nicest, kindest and most intelligent man and no one protests.
“Men seem to be so cowed that they can’t fight back, and it is time they did.”
–Guardian “Nobel Prize Winning Novelist Doris Lessing
A reader writes in:
Dear Dr. Helen:
After reading your last column on men’s rights, I have to ask, what are your thoughts on whether or not men should get married?
Dear Reader:
Wow, that is a tough question. Let me start by saying that many of you emailed me about my last column on men’s rights to say that I was wrong to blame men for “not showing up” to fight against the courts and laws that treat them worse than common criminals–without due process, constitutional rights or any say in government intervention into their private lives. But it seems that women are getting ahead in the workplace (in NYC and other large cities, they earn more than men) but men are falling behind in the domestic realm which includes marriage. I understand that many of you feel that I am “blaming the victim”–in this case men–but I will use in my defense the refrain preached by Martin Luther King: “Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor, it must be demanded by the oppressed.”
This quote was one that I found in a new book by professor Stephen Baskerville entitled Taken into Custody: The War Against Fatherhood, Marriage, and the Family
In this book, Baskerville describes some horrific situations where men are called deadbeat dads and jailed (pdf file), fathers have their children taken away, false abuse charges ruin reputations and men lose their very lives by committing suicide after divorce decisions that leave them feeling impotent, destitute or without the people they love the most: their children. On the topic of marriage, Baskerville says:
There is mounting evidence that as men discover the terms of marriage and divorce today, they are engaging in a marriage boycott or marriage “strike”: refusing to marry or start families, knowing they can be criminalized if their wife walks out and how attractive the divorce industry has made it easy for her to do so. …. Sonja Hastings of Fathers-4-Equality says that “no matter how decent, hardworking, and caring you may be as a father, that in the event of separation, you will more than likely not get custody of your child, you will lose up to 80% of all of your assets, you will have to pay up to five times the cost of raising a child, and most importantly you could never see your child again.” In Britain a fathers’ rights group tours university campuses warning young men not to start families. Even one attorney writes a book concluding that the only effective protection for men to avoid losing their children is not to start a family in the first place.
Strong stuff. I used to think that it was bad advice. How could someone tell young men or older men not to have families? A good family is a wonderful thing; however, I admit to having been naive enough to do a post on marriage at my blog thinking that I would hear about the positive things men liked about being married. Boy, was I wrong. Here is what I heard instead:
I’m a single, never married guy. Professional, good job, etc. Have been dating a great lady for almost a year. I thought I was ready to ask her to marry me (she has been hinting for months that she wants to marry). Problem is, at least 7 out of 10 guys I talk to tell me that it is one of the worst mistakes that they every made. Some tell me not to marry American women, that they are all feminist at heart. One married guy told me that I could get the same effect by selling my house, giving all my money away and having someone castrate me. This is really starting to un-nerve me and the more I learn about the legal bias against men, I’m beginning to back off of marriage. I love my girlfriend, but all of these guys say their girlfriends changed once they married and begin to dominant and control. I am starting to think marriage in American can not be saved.
I met a woman that I was sure was my soul mate. I was deeply in love and so, I thought, was she. All this changed when I lost my high paying job through downsizing. To my credit, I went to work immediately and had two jobs, but still only made about 80% of my old income. My wife gave me a year and then began sleeping with a man who hadn’t lost his job in my bed while I was at work. She left with him, taking almost all of my savings and anything else she could carry. Her explanation was that she was “an expensive bitch” and she was unhappy because I worked so much. The adultery doesn’t seem to matter to the court and she got essentially everything. Besides the financial losses, I was so devastated by the betrayal that I could barely function for months. She treated me like garbage and I never worked harder at any endeavor in my life.
So back to the question of should men get married? I say, do so with an open mind and realize that the legal system may be stacked against you. Make sure you trust the woman you are going to marry and consider a prenuptial agreement that can serve to protect you should a divorce become a reality. One doesn’t want to become jaded to marriage and relationships but at the same time, a certain degree of reality is warranted because men often do not make out well in divorce proceedings –for example, 84% of all child and spousal support payments come from men. When things become less attractive to people, they are less likely to do it. If society wants men to be involved more in marriage, marriage has to be more attractive to them-it is getting riskier and more expensive for men to be married. It’s not surprising fewer of them are interested.
For readers, what advice, if any, would you give to the young men of today who wonder if they should get married? Or if you are male and not married, do divorce laws and the legal system have anything to do with your decision or not?
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If you have a question you would like answered, please leave it below or email me at askdrhelen@hotmail.com. Your questions may be edited for length and clarity. Please note that your first name only or no name at all will be used to identify your question-if you want me to use your name, tell me, otherwise you will be referred to by your first name or as “a reader” etc.
Helen Smith is a psychologist specializing in forensic issues in Knoxville, Tennessee and blogs at drhelen.blogspot.com. This advice column is for educational and entertainment purposes only and does not purport to replace therapy or psychological treatment.
You ask for advice to young men regarding marriage. I’ve only been married 25 years, so may not have enough experience to have worthwhile comments, but here are some quick thoughts.
Ensure that you and your intended are committed to the marriage and not just to ‘love’. There will be times when you will be extremely exasperated by, angry at, or hurt by her. You will do the same to her at times. Both of you should be committed to getting through any problems which arrive: forgive and work things out.
No matter how you are feeling (see above), each of you should endeavor to treat your spouse in a loving manner.
Have the same or adequately similar religious views. Mixed marriages can work, but they are harder.
No sex outside of marriage. Ever. Marriages can sometimes recover from betrayal, but why risk it. (See the first item, above.)
Always try to be kind to your intended, now and when you are married. Kindness smooths a lot of frictions. When you show love, you start to feel love.
You and your spouse should agree that, absence physical abuse or adultery, divorce is never an option.
Have children: biological or adopted. Plural. It will help both of you to mature.
I’m sure more reflection would bring more thoughts, but these are the first, and subject to modification upon reflection.
Dr. Helen,
I am a mid-thirties unmarried male, who has spent an inordinate amount of my life in long-term relationships with women. I have found that marriage is somewhat of an anachronism if you discount adding children to the relationship; until fairly recently, the ‘marriage tax’ was an economic hindrance, as well as the ramifications of divorce (I live in a no-fault state). My personal advice to men contemplating marriage is this: ask yourself if she would stay with you if she had to support you. Based on the notion that we’re all supposed to marry our best friend, whomever makes the money shouldn’t be the basis for the marriage. Yes, money isn’t the reason for a marriage, but most divorces sure have money at their roots.
Nice work ladies. It appears that, not satisfied with forcing the average family to have two breadwinners instead of one and debasing the child nurturing aspects of the family unit, you are well on your way to junking the family unit altogether, now that this particular partnership agreement has few takers. Rumors of Amazons and Scythians notwithstanding, history has not treated female dominated societies well.
When I got married just over two years ago we had made the decision to keep our finances separate. This was easy to do because we both have in-demand careers with great earnings and earning potential. We agreed on how the living expenses would be split. For us, a gift is a GIFT… if I buy her something, I do it with MY MONEY. My financial priorities are my priorities, and hers are hers. I’d recommend this approach at this point.
Great advice. I’m a happily married man, because I was lucky enough to find the right woman. So marriage has been a great blessing in my life.
But I realize I’m extremely lucky, because I know my happiness is unusual. I know many men who are unhappy with their marriages, and i know many men who’ve been victimized by the legal system in the process of their divorce.
I have a son, and my advice to him is this: When you consider marriage, know what you are risking, because if your wife is unhappy with you and gets a good lawyer, you may wind up losing all contact with your children and you may become a wage slave to the child support system. Consider that carefully, and know that you are placing your hope for happiness in the hands of another. You are rolling the dice. If you are still sure, still confident you found the right woman, and willing to approach it a lifetime, irrevocable commitment – no matter what – then by all means do so. Thinking of it this way may give you the certainty you need to make the right choice.
And I would certainly give very similar advice to my daughters too. They are risking a great deal too.
Not all marriages end in unhappiness, and not all women are out to castrate men. The only “trick” to having a good marriage is finding the right woman to marry. Good sex is not a reason to get married. How do you know when you’ve found the right one? Ask two questions: 1) Do I care more about her needs than my own? 2) Does she care more about my needs than my own?
If both answers are “yes”, you’re on the right path. How do you know the answer to number 2? Trust me, you’ll know. If you have to spend money for her to have a good time with you, she does not care about you, she cares about your money. Is she interested in being with you, or doing things/going places you taker her? And by the way, looks fade for both of you. Make sure you like spending time together, because you’ll have lots of time together over the next 40-50 years. And by the way, if either of you feel you have to move in together first to “try it out”, that’s probably a sign you’re not sure about each other. When you meet the right one, there won’t be any hesitation from either of you.
I guess I’m one of the boycotters. I’m 44, single, never married. In the past I had a few long term relationships that seemed headed toward marriage, one even involved cohabitation. In the end none worked out. The most serious one it seemed that all the effort to maintain the relationship was coming from me, and it wasn’t enough. I was expected to put more and more effort into making things work out for her. In the end, when I felt I’d gone as far as I could without damaging my career (actually I did damage my career to a degree, just not irreparably) it wasn’t enough for her and she dumped me. I was actually a bit relieved mixed in with all the other emotions because I knew that the question would come down to marriage or not soon enough, and while I felt like it was expected that we’d be married I wasn’t sure I wanted to go forward with this particular woman. Afterward I heard from our mutual friends that she basically dumped me because she thought she could do better.
All that happened in my late 20′s and early 30′s. I dated for a number of years after that, only seriously once or twice. About 6 or 7 years ago I gradually just quit dating. Without really thinking about it I came to the decision that I would not get married, so I wasn’t interested in going through the hassle of dating. The interesting part is that I share a house with two other guys in similar situations. We all seem to have voluntarily removed ourselves not just from the population of marriagable men, but from the dating pool. One is a few years older than me, the other in his early 30′s. Both of them were previously married and don’t seem eager to repeat the experience.
St. Paul said it is better than burning. I’m not sure whether he was married, though.
The more I read the more I feel like I got out lucky with my divorce. My ex-wife cheated and I have to give credit to her family who are wonderful people in shaming her enough to not try to take more of my stuff.
Gene Simmons of KISS has been enjoying the sexual company of superbabe Shannon Tweed for years. She has even birthed his children. He bought her a huge house. But he never married her. He is still very rich, and he still gets to screw pretty much any other female that interests him.
Is there a lesson there?
You know the one about Divorcee Barbie, right, Darksbane?
Don’t do it fellas.
I’m married, and happily so, but the more I see, the more I feel like a guy who played a slot machine while walking through the airport in Vegas, and just happened to hit the jackpot on the first try. Marriage is exactly like gambling. Yes, you’re going to see a few winners, and the fact that they exist encourages a lot of other people to gamble, but that doesn’t mean gambling is a good investment strategy.
Also, bear in mind that marriage isn’t just one gamble. You’re not going to be the same person in ten years, and she isn’t either. Particularly if you have kids, an event that can significantly change your outlook on life. What are the odds that the people you’ll be in a decade will get along with each other?
Find a girlfriend, treat her well, but don’t ever let her take you for granted.
Interesting comments so far. My first marriage of eight years, no kids, dissolved uneventfully and fairly painlessly. My second marriage of twenty years, four adopted kids, become a nightmare of (her) alcoholism, perpetual victimhood, jealousy and rage. I wanted to stick it out until my youngest was out of high school, but she wanted out. Somehow I was able to exit without alimony, and with two years of child support which actually went to the child, so I consider myself lucky. I’m in a great relationship of 5+ years; we live five miles apart, and the closest we’ll come to living together is a duplex! My point is that one can’t predict what either party will be like ten years from now, and that a young man should heed much of the advice given by the commenters above.
We tend to forget that marriage used to perform functions for society that have since been displaced by governmental social programs. A mere hundred years ago, women on the average lived shorter lives than men due to the complications of child birth. The need to address issues like property were less pressing. Women didn’t vote and had restricted contract rights let alone right to property, as they themselves were often treated as property. To protect one’s daughters, one married them off to someone to manage what ever the family gave them. If a women were to survive her husband, the possibility existed that the eldest son or another male member of the blood family would make play for the assets. Government was rather unconcerned about one’s existence other than as part of the 10 year census for apportionment because there was no income tax. So, if the birth was of a girl, the birth was just as much recorded locally in the parish records or family bible, cause dad wasn’t about to hitch up the buggy for a long trip to the county seat to file an official record when property was not going to be in issue, because a hundred years ago most Americans live in the country, on small farms, villages and towns. To protect females and their human rights within the context of the period, women were given the exclusivity of sex. While not perfect and saddled with a lot of hypocrisy, people a hundred years ago were prosecuted, harassed, and ostracized for sex outside of marriage. The imperfect institution meant that women were provided for in a world that did not integrate them as equals in the market place.
Give us the vote and subsequent property contract reform. Give us Social Security and lessen , if not remove, the need for the next generation of family to care for the elders. Systematically disassemble the monopoly on sex. Give us no fault divorce and cultural acceptable serial polygamy and polyandry. Give us open sex between consenting adults. It appears only commercial sex still carries the stigma society operated under a hundred years ago. Now throw in the negatives as so amply demonstrated, the real question is why does marriage survive?
I’ve been lucky and unlucky. My first marriage ended after 13 years (relativelly amicably and still hurt like hell) and basically so did my career/business. This was before widespread no-fault divorce, but my wife got a shark (paid for by her boyfriend) who I finally just said, “fine. Let her take whatever she wants. I quit.” She was pretty good about letting me see the kids. There were other, later attempts by the lawyer (like attaching my income tax refund by claiming unpaid child support even though I had receipts and the County records showed I had paid up.) I couldn’t take it and closed by business, put enough money (borrowed, mostly) into a drawing account that paid out child support once a month and dropped out.
Later, after I decided I’d probably be single the rest of my life, I met my current wife. We dated for five years, lived together (two different times) for 3 of those and finally got married. Our 15th anniversary is rapidly approaching. We have no children and both work. We have joint everything. We both try to put the other first.
My advice to young men is:
1) Never, ever marry anyone you haven’t spent serious time togehter with for at least 2 years. It takes time to really know anyone.
2) Have a written understanding of how finances will be handled. A pre-nup isn’t all bad, either, even if you currently have few/no assets.
3) Lower your expectations, and hers. Life is not always going to be a dream. What will you do when you hit the inevitable rough spot?
4) Talk about the serious stuff frequently. One or the other of you may change your mind about something important. It is essential that both of you *know* how the other feels about the important stuff.
5) Understand that even a good marriage may end. What will you do? Plan ahead.
6) Try never to be mean. Women remember such acts pretty much forever. It’s not worth it even if you stay together.
7) Practice give-and-take, but try not to keep score.
There’s lots more, but this is a start.
I got married at 23, we moved away from our support networks for a job that I had been offered. Within a year she had started cheating on me with a guy that was ‘me, before I became a boring working stiff’. A separation and divorce followed despite trying to work through the issues with a marriage councilor. Instead of alimony I paid off her credit cards and gave her some cash. Fast forward a while and I remarried, someone I had met on the internet on a video game that took 2 years just for INS permission to marry (she is danish), and we have been married for 5 years now and its still awesome (With the obvious caveat every relationship takes work and compromise.) Marriage works with the right person and commitment. Is marriage a necessity? Not really, but it offers proof of commitment that buying stuff and hanging out doesn’t.
This post is very strange to me. I have been married for almost six years (with one kid so far) and these experiences are very different than the ones I and almost all of my married friends have had.
I suspect that it is partly because they are Christians and see marriage as a sacred vow more than a legal arrangement. Divorce is not an option when things get rough and there is a community of support for the marriages that are having trouble.
I agree with Mike from above: “The only “trick” to having a good marriage is finding the right woman to marry.” The same thing applies to women looking for men. With right defined as someone you enjoy spending time with, who you respect, who shares your values, and who you want your future kids to be like.
KEY POINT: THE ‘MARRIAGE CONTRACT’ IS NOT A CONTRACT
Historically, the most remarkable change in marriage is that it is no longer governed by contract law, where it had resided for thousands of years. Marriage vows, promises, and ceremonial statements, such as, “To have and to hold, in sickness and in health, for richer or poorer, until death do us part”, bear little legal weight, are no longer a legal contract, and are unenforceable in law.
Marriage and divorce law is generally too unwieldy to remediate most unethical, immoral, or even illegal spousal conduct. Divorce proceedings in North America are rife with deception, fraud, embezzlement, perjury, defamation, and catastrophic financial and emotional outcomes. Children are especially victimized. The philosophy of “Marriage for Love”, relatively recent in human history, has not provided adequate guidelines about what to do when love breaks down.
Pre-nuptial contracts have begun to replace marriage vows, because they can be written in myriad ways, are enforceable, and are supported by all the power and precedence of thousands of years of contract law, with enforcement processes and procedures clearly understood by most litigation experts.
The simplest method to bypass the problems of typical marriages and divorces made on impulse is for couples to write and sign their own “cohabitation” contract, to replace marriage licenses and pre-nuptial agreements. This method is feasible right now by couples of any gender combination or sexual orientation.
The contract can specify certain benefits exchanges and obligations, with certain penalties for abrogating parts and/or all of the contract. Specific legal marriage documents would not be used, but a ceremony marking the signing of this cohabitation contract is feasible.
If the couple later have conflict over the contract provisions, it could be settled by standard litigation procedures. As in all important contracts, great care is needed for each signatory to commit fully to the process, with a clear understanding of the consequences of abrogating the contract and its provisions.
This may seem cold, but it’s actually quite hot. Couples who love and trust each other deeply would sign the contract willingly, because they wrote it, and “to have and to hold” would be legally defined and enforceable.
If they cannot negotiate such a contract, they may well not be ready for any type of cohabitation arrangement. It would also force irresponsible signatories to reconsider their negative behaviors in light of tangible legal consequences.
This contract method would not replace marriage for everyone, but it would create another legal route to recognize romantic commitment. It would motivate both signatories to stick together through “thick and thin”, since they would know that easy, no-fault, consequence-free divorce or abandonment was not possible. There would be serious and clear legal consequences for signatories who let themselves fall out of love.
Yeah I’ve heard that one Dan, and I count myself lucky every day that we had no kids and she was looking to get out and be with her new rich boyfriend more than thinking about taking me through the ringer, at least at first. Turns out that new rich boyfriend wasn’t so rich after all, but he did do all the things for her that I wouldn’t do. Like hit her, cuss her out, throw her down a flight of stairs, threaten to kill her and her family, you know… the important things.
After about 3 months of this she started complaining that she got a raw deal in the divorce (she got half of everything and somehow that wasn’t fair). I had a few choice words for her after that conversation.
She begged me back for about 1.5 years but the longer I was single the more I realized that I got very lucky. Been about 3 years now and I’m starting to get the desire to date again, but I’ll never legally marry again. It is a no win situation. I’ll make the committment to be with 1 girl for the rest of my life if I can find a good one, but I’ll never give anyone that kind of power over me again.
First off, I’m not gonna claim to be an expert on this, since I’ve only been married three years. I’m a girl, too, so some of you might discount what I’m going to say based on that fact alone.
But the advice I would give my son (and any other kids me and my sweetie may be lucky enough to have someday…) is this:
When I married his dad, I sponsored him for his green card. One of the many pieces of paper I had to sign for this honor was one stating that I would reimburse the government for the next ten years for any welfare payments or benefits that he may be granted over the next ten years, or until he racked up 40 quarters of Social Security credit, even if we got divorced. If his bad behavior was the reason we got divorced, too bad…so sad…..pay up, dahlink.
I worked for a social service agency, so I knew exactly how much that could come to….and how damn long it would take for me to pay that off if the guvmint ever wanted to collect on that promise.
If you don’t think that you would be willing to sign such a pledge for your sweetie, don’t get married to him or her. You probably have a good reason why you wouldn’t, whether you are consciously aware of it or not. Forget the good looks, the great sex or the current earning situation. All of that can change in a heartbeat, but the person’s basic character remains.
All people better have their own money–even if you blend most of it. If you have your own money in a safe place then marriage is not a threat. When you blend money and don’t have your own you are in danger.
I have said before that men should get married only if they wholly commit to the Catholic sacrament of marriage, and are absolutely sure their intended does too. By that I mean the whole enchilada: no sex outside of (or prior to) marriage, no divorce (and in case of abuse/adultery, no remarriage after separation), and no contraception either. Otherwise, there is no compelling reason for a man to marry.
Non-Catholics (and some Catholics too) will undoubtedly have reservations about the above, but our culture is long overdue for a hard conversation about how our having progressively shed each of the assumptions above has brought about the decline of the family and created a culture disposed toward narcissism and familial abandonment. If family bonds are a thing that can be broken as well as created, then marriage becomes “legalized fornication” and a transactional, not a covenantal arrangement.
I suspect the enhanced ‘safety net’ society provides now, combined with effective birth control, have weakened the links many women used to place between sex, marriage, family, and support. Men are unnecessary and sex is for ‘fun’ (especially amoung the younger/lower income segment of the population. If individuals are no longer personally responsible for anything else, why should we expect them to be responsible about marriage (this statement applies to both men and women.)
These whiner guys have problems that are centered on themselves, not society. You’ll hear from later about how American society messed up their retirement, career, etc.
I got married 2 days after graduation from college and have now been married 18 years and have a wonderful wife and 2 kids. This threat of my rights being taken away by divorce is easily resolved by not getting divorced. When getting married, it helps not to enter into the institution with the assumption that if it’s some sort of bummer you can always wriggle free. Once you’re in it, you should be in to stay, and choose accordingly. These guys simply made the wrong choice–she was an expensive bitch before the divorce, too. People I know who got divorced were generally screw-ups for various reasons, and botched this key junction in their lives.
Now, what these oh-so-desirable single men say about being better off single says a lot. Yeah, my wife is a “feminist” in the classic sense of being an equal, with an education, a brain, and productive capacity. And the thing is, a young household run by two equals with ambition will kick the hell out of a single-person household run by some infantile self-absorbed commitment-avoider looking for the next fun thing, male or female.
So while my single friends are aging and becoming desperate, tired, high-mileage, heavy-baggage tragic figures, my wife and I get to enjoy our kids under a firm umbrella of financial security and stability. So let me sum this up: by getting married, we were both able to get rich, have more sex, and have a more enriching home life than our single friends. Oh the pain and tragedy.
rule #1 say it with me now: Pre-nuptual Agreement
I tell all of my younger male friends this, and to learn from a real person what the downside of not having one is… as I have slid down to that long financial nightmare of chapter-something-or-other, I am really preaching this to keep guys from ruination…
rule#2 Don’t let her stay home. Seems in a lot of states and surely mine… if she is a stay-at-home with or without kids, she will get alimony. And, yeah, there is no such thing as maintainence. It’s alimony, and you are paying it as if you owe her something. Maybe in ye olden days when a woman migh have no way of getting a job, it was important. Now? No. The hard part, and what drive my female friends crazy [several of whom are divorced] Is because of my earning ability to allow her to stay home with the children, which was her demand, I now have to pay alimony for the same amount of time as the marriage lasted. MEANWHILE if she had worked, there would likely be no alimony.
How does that work? The chica who stays home and reads romance novels while the kids are at school, gets a free pass, while her sisters busting their tails get nothing?
In the end the laws apply only to those who step up to the plate, and act responsibly. Those who don’t, and who the laws are supposed to target, get passed. Male and female. I know guys who hit the door and never looked back, to the ruin of their children, and I know women [one is my ex] who use their college education and career experience… to work minimum wage jobs, since their ex has to pay it all anyway. I have a sort of grim smile that when the alimony is gone, and the last kid is 18, I won’t pay anything anymore… and she will be 50 trying to re-start the career she had 20 years before. Some hard lessons will be learned then…
Move to Japan and Marry a Japanese woman. Be a good husband and live happily ever after. If things don’t work out and you share some of the blame, the Japanese court will make you write a check for an amount sufficient to keep her on her feet before she gets a job. The court expects divorced women to actually re-enter the work force to support themselves.
Mike wrote: “The only “trick” to having a good marriage is finding the right woman to marry.”
I think that is the fundamental aspect of a happy, blessed marriage, the sina quo non of a good relationship. As in cooking, it is impossible to make a great meal out of rancid ingredients.
And I am not sure that men and women are taught what to look for in a relationship. But stringent and sober selection is a must, or we depend on luck. I prefer depending upon hard work and self control to luck any day.
Once the selection is made, there is certainly a lot to be done, but having selected a wonderful woman to be my wife, we are committed to doing the work. Having been married before, less succesfully, I learned that the choice of parnter is crucial.
And I cannot imagine being single, my wife and family bring too much joy, support, challenge and growth to my life.
Trey
Maybe we should do as Heinlein suggested in one of his books and have marriage contracts of different terms and different lengths that spell out the rights and responsibilities of each party and the conditions of termination etc… Lawyers want their share of the pie. They will continue to get elected to office and jigger with the laws and you can rest assured that whatever changes are made the lawyers will get theirs.
So, why not just cut them in from the start? Structure the incentives so that they make a little up front and there is little likelihood of making anything on the back end when things go awry. It is kind of like paying protection money to the mob to keep them from beating you up or like paying taxes to the government to keep them from arresting you. It is all just a cost of doing business.
France instituted a type of civil union for gays that has actually turned out to be very popular with straight couples since the terms are more appealing to them than the traditional type of union. There is no reason everyone should be forced into a one size fits all type of contract for something as important as a marriage when they wouldn’t dream of conducting even trifling business deals in the same manner.
personally I hate the idea that a woman can stop anything and everything I care about doing just by making my life a living hell until I concede to her demands.
I must hold my tongue, hold my temper and “be the man there” while the spouse screams invectives and shouts how I would stop riding my bike,horse etc. if I loved her! and lets not even go to the “I want you to stop riding the bike, horses etc because YOU WANT TOO not because I am bitchin’ you off of the bike, horse etc you name the hobby.” and the only recourse is divorce where the state takes all my toys and gives them to her.
Yes, marriage ain’t what it used to be.
Yes, and couples ought to be in marriage counselling from the time they get back from their honeymoons.
“The only “trick” to having a good marriage is finding the right woman to marry. Good sex is not a reason to get married. How do you know when you’ve found the right one?”
It’s cutesy-cutesy, Dear Abby-ish statements like these that make me wonder if A) Do you have ANY idea what is going on at all? B) Have you actually ever met a real live American Woman? C) What year are you living in.. 1974?
This isn’t a simple ‘character’ issue- this is a legal issue. The ‘legal’ system is now and has been completely insane. Guys, to explain how it feels to be a man nowadays to a woman, tell them to imagine if they woke up suddenly tomorrow to find out that rape is now legal. All the women would be completely freaking out, saying, “this is insane,” but then the men’s only response is, “hey, not all men are like that.” Then, just to make you feel like you’ve just entered the Twilight Zone, they ask accusingly, “hey lady, (talking to her like she’s an idiot that was born yesterday) what do you have against men anyway? You’re scary and creepy and obviously have issues that you need to get counseling on because of some past relationship problems- you know, you fit the profile of an abuser. I would never date a woman like you.”
I think it’s clear from this thread that ONLY WOMEN should get married.
I would add one other issue into the marrage debate for young men. If you are in your early 20′s, you are highly likely to live long enough to benefit from biotechnological immortality (www.sens.org). Within the next 20-30 years will be a world of unlimited openess and opportunity for those who keep their options open.
This, combined with the extreme financial and personal risk of marrage (risk comparable to venture start-ups or oil wild-catting) make marrage an increasingly unnecessary venture for today’s young men.
The future is open for those who seek to keep it open.
Oh the humanity
What planet are you from? I know plenty of senior single guys and narry a one is tragic or desparate. They are loving life and living it.
I’m 45, male, 18 years into a relationship, never been married.
One year, when we were on a 3-week vacation in Fiji, I noted that the entire cost of the trip would have been taxed away had we been married. The “marriage penalty” certainly factored into our early thinking.
Now that we are older and have more of a nest egg, remaining single can protect both parties by compartmentalizing risk. If one of us were to lose everything through illness or legal action, “we” would only have lost half. Even if we parted then, there would only be one life to rebuild — the other party wouldn’t have been dragged down too.
Since leading causes of bankruptcy include individual risks such as loss of job or medical bills, staying single becomes a way to protect your partner.
mark: It’s still a character issue. No amount of ‘good law’ can make up for bad people. It just controls the damage.
What I mean is, having a good marriage is just as difficult as it used to be – you need to have good character, your partner does as well. It is in some ways more free – easier to find them – but also harder to commit meaningfully. What is worse is what happens to the bad marriages.
I was married for nine years before my divorce, and I was with her for 4 years before that.
There was no cheating, no animosity. To be honest, she just wasn’t the right girl for me – although she was the one that asked me for a divorce. I got tired of her spending money and time on trying to find herself, so I stopped being interested in her. But I felt it necessary to stick to the marriage “contract”, at least until she was willing to break it.
I don’t think you have to view marriage as a sacred contract to stay married. I agree with those that said if you put her needs ahead of yours, and if she puts your needs ahead of hers, you will stay married.
I’m not going to shy away from marriage in the future, if I meet the right woman. I lost half of my assets in the divorce, and probably lost a good chunk more during the marriage itself. But it’s worth the risk for the right woman.
My advice would be don’t enter the marriage lightly. If you have doubts, there’s a good chance they won’t be resolved by the mere act of marriage. Used to be that married couples would work through their issues, because society was structured to support that practice. Now, society supports the “end it if it doesn’t feel right” practice.
The risk of loss in divorce really hasn’t changed; it’s just been readily quantified and monetarized by the courts. This just means that men must resist the urge to jump into marriage just to make their partner happy.
kurt9: Welcome to the world of magical thinking. Does one ever get anything for free?
The answer: no.
And thus our problems.
well, I’m a woman, married 5 years, and here’s a novel thought… why don’t YOU be the type of person you want to marry? Instead of opting out, protecting yourself legally, or “choosing” carefully. If YOU are honest, loyal, steadfast, industrious and resilient, the likelihood is you will attract the same sort of person. If you are easily bored, whiny, lazy, demanding and sulky – requiring lots of entertainment and maintenance – thats probably what you’re going to get in return.
Great comments so far; I especially like the suggestion from a couple of you to ask yourself if the person you are considering marrying would support you if you were out of a job. It’s a good predictor for a man or woman contemplating whether or not a partner is the right choice. Loyalty and feeling that someone is on your side is very important in a marriage. I think it carries you through some pretty bad times.
I got lucky on the 3rd try. This one has lasted 30 years and is absolutely great. The first two were quite painful to end and I almost didn’t go for the 3rd one for that reason. And back then I don’t think the court system and the culture were as bad for men as they are today.
I credit the success of my current marriage to my wife’s father. He did not raise his daughter to expect Daddy to do everything for her. He was a true feminist before his time. He was a physicist who believed that women could be equal to men in the sciences if they wanted to be. He encouraged his daughters to pursue whatever goals they decided upon and to believe they would be attainable through, and only through, hard work.
As a result, I have been blessed with a wife who loves men, especially me, appreciates everything I do for her, but does not believe that men, especially I, were put on earth to serve her and make her happy. Partly for that reason, I do everything I can to make her happy. But we both also know that ultimately she is responsible for her happiness, not I.
So to you young guys, pay close attention to the relationship your intended has with her father. It’s important.
I’m 32 and unmarried. As I see it, it’s a game of probabilities.
If I meet and marry miss right, there’s a 50% chance our marriage will end in divorce.
75% of divorces are initiated by the woman.
Women get primary custody of the children in child support cases.
So, .5 * .75 * .9 is about 1/3. So, if I marry and have children, I have about a 1 in three chance that she’ll divorce me and wind up with the kids. That is an unacceptably high risk to me.
As ‘mark’ said above, nobody would tell women that hey, spousal abuse is no big deal, as long as you make sure you marry a guy who doesn’t abuse you.
Dear Dr. Helen:
I finished reading your post on “Should Men Marry” an hour ago and have only just recovered from the state of disorientation in which it left me. I am a 47-year old man who has never married even though I have for my entire adult life harbored fond notions of a life spent alongside a woman to whom I could devote myself body and soul. I have no doubt my own view resonates to the core with the bulk of responses other men have put to you.
Your reader who stated “…7 out of 10 guys I talk to tell me that [marriage] is one of the worst mistakes that they every made” could have been me. You can well imagine how many married couples a 47-year old man or woman could know in their life. Yet in my case, I would put the “regret factor” at about 90% or higher. Of all considerations that have induced me to sidestep the full commitment of marriage-and two women in my life have made me dwell on the thought to the point of distraction-none carried more power than the number of married men who confided to me that their lives went into a progressive tailspin once the ring went on the finger. And no, they are not the golf addicts, football junkies or other little boys who never grew up.
I fully acknowledge that there are women out there that are spectacular in every way, whose character, intellect and capacity for virtue and compassion are the stuff of legend. If you can get her name, please forward it to me. The preponderance of women I meet daily make a point of trying to be men, and ill-bred men at that. If you are familiar with Sir Compton MacKenzie’s statement that “Women do not find it difficult nowadays to behave like men; but they often find it extremely difficult to behave like gentlemen,” you will know what I mean. If I blame the rise of feminism on the historic mistreatment and mis-regard of women, I blame the revolting, self-centered, egotistical and utterly man-hating disposition of most American women on the soulless creatures who have taken feminism to perverted extremes and become intoxicated on it. Women constantly whine about “the male ego.” When is the last time these women took a good look at the cover of Cosmopolitan magazine or spent five minutes watching The View? These women do not lack a massive ego, they only lack testicles and a beard.
Don’t think I desire some kind of doormat submissive, either; if I need my slippers fetched, I’ll get a cocker spaniel, thank you, not a wife. I think, deep down, all decent men wish to be knights in shining armor, but you need a Lady in your life to be a knight. Women today are taught that being a lady is to throw your birthright away.
On the matter of the anti-male legal system I will offer only this: contemporary society does not raise men to be fighters. It raises women to be fighters, and it raises men to endure. “Real men do not complain, nor do they whine about attacks made upon them; it’s not manly,” society seems to say. If the proportion of ill-bred, vile men in this world have made it necessary for certain laws to be enacted, the public discourse of manhood has consumed all men collectively and spat them into the same pool of the bully, the wife-beater and the chauvinist pig. To be a man today is to be presumed guilty until proven innocent. I may as well change my name to Alan Alda to spare myself the trouble. Michael Crichton noted in his novel Disclosure that a man cannot even smile at a child in an elevator without being instantly thought a pedophile freak. Okay, that was a novel. But I have experienced the very same thing in my life many times. I’m a man, and therefore I am suspect. Men are not allowed to be human beings. Today, men have to take sensitivity courses when they get a job just to make sure they don’t offend their female coworkers. You should have met some of my female co-workers! Prison guards have more class.
And women wonder why men tremble at the altar.
Finally, the very same women I know who nag their husbands and boast to their girlfriends how they have their boyfriends wrapped around their fingers are the very same women who pant and blush while hearing Sean Connery’s voice, or watching Russell Crowe play Master and Commander. Maybe my mistake has been that when I listen to women, I have taken them seriously. Maybe 90% of what comes out of a woman’s mouth truly is irresponsible tripe. Maybe I really should just devote my efforts to being a gentleman as best I can, but when she starts testing my nerve, throw her across my lap and smack her backside until it glows like Rudolph’s nose.
On second thought, I’d rather not spend the next eight months in prison. Maybe I’ll just forget the whole romance thing and enjoy a good afternoon fly fishing. It sure seems a lot safer.
Sincerely,
One more man
I was very fortunate. My wife became a femanazi and I became a Practis Husband. I quickly found out that 2 could live as cheaply as 5 or 6.
OK. It took me 2 decades to recover, but it was worth it. As a rancher I now surf, hunt, shoot and smile…a lot.
Actually I pray for her. Well actually I thank God for the divorce…
I am happily married (12 years), but I would be happier if I was not married. If it wasn’t for the kids…
I never congratulate a man who announces he is engaged. And, I counsel against marriage to my friends. (Sadly, they never listen – I remind them of my advice when they are in their divorce proceedings.)
The only reason that makes any sense to get married is if you want children. If so, you need to find woman who has a similar interests, and family history. If she puts off having children get rid of her before it is too late. You don’t want a mother who puts her career before having children.
The marriages that seem to last are ones where the wife is Asian and Catholic. That combination is your safest bet.
And for those keeping seperate finances – the divorce court often does not care about that. It will add all the assets up and distribute them “equitably.”
“Oh the humanity
What planet are you from? I know plenty of senior single guys and narry a one is tragic or desparate. They are loving life and living it.”
… for NOW. Like so many men, you just don’t ‘get it.’ I was ‘happily’ married for a while too.. so what? It’s what happens to you as a man when the divorce comes.
Would you sign a contract with a business partner that stated he could, “at any time for any reason suddenly expel you from the business, and have you jailed for nothing if he ‘feels’ like it, take all of the money you made from the business, take your children, then you must pay him hundreds to thousands of dollars a month for at least the next 18 years?”
..and you’re just supposed to ‘trust’ that the partner will never do it? The whole reason there are laws is because we cannot just ‘trust’ everyone will be good. If you’re stupid enough to sign a contract like that, knock yourself out. The point is you have no rights as a man in a marriage/family.
It is not a crap shoot. A common sense of the nature and purpose of marriage can go far to ensure it will last. Men should not consider as candidates for marriage any woman who thinks that marriage is just a contractual agreement between two individuals; who thinks that the romance of feeling love is more essential to marriage than the hard work of sacrificially loving someone; who is not committed to (and who does not expect from her husband) absolute fidelity; for whom a professional career will be more important than being a mother (or than being a mother of “too many” children). Obviously religious faith can do a lot to instill (and signal) the appropriate marriage-oriented dispositions. (But of course even religious women today are still prone to some corruption by modern anti-family ideas).
I can sympathize with 32 and unmarried. I have 3 very marriage reluctant sons in their late twenties and early thirties.
This is what I tell them. First be a man and then marry someone with self confidence that you respect. If you are looking for someone to reafirm your manhood 24/7 you are probably going to be disapointed in marriage.
Women today are busy. They can only dedicate a certain amount of time to bolstering your image of yourself so you had better come into it with a secure knowledge of who you are and who she is.
If you love her for who she is not for how she makes you feel about yourself then it will likely work beautifully.
If all the women (or men if you’re female) are mean and shallow maybe you need to blame yourself, not the opposite gender.
“mark: It’s still a character issue. No amount of ‘good law’ can make up for bad people. It just controls the damage.”
The reason we have laws is because people cannot be trusted. Our laws actually encourage and enable women to commit what amounts to fraud and embezzlement.
What I mean is, having a good marriage is just as difficult as it used to be – you need to have good character, your partner does as well. It is in some ways more free -easier to find them – but also harder to commit meaningfully. What is worse is what happens to the bad marriages.”
Making a marriage work is impossible in the current climate. How can a marriage work when one of the spouses comes into the marriage who is not accountable for any of their actions legally or culturally because of their gender? Any man who would get married today is an idiot and a fool. The laws HAVE to change before intelligent men like myself ever consider marriage.
I’m 59, male, divorced, 2 kids.
I think it comes down to power. During the course of a relationship, dating, courting, marriage, men have most of the power.
The one time period they lose power is when they have young children. Women then have the ability to deprive them of the company of their children. If you are a man who loves his children you realize that your wife has the upper hand.
Good advice for men and women: When you are courting, pat attention to how your potential mate treats people with less power than them. Do they treat waitresses, cleaning ladies, and handymen with dignity and respect or are they dismissive and callous? Because that’s how you’ll be treating as the power relationship changes during your life.
I’m a not-yet-married single man, but a few observations on this for what (little) they’re worth.
I’d agree with several commenters that it’s absolutely critical to find the right woman, and that this is extremely difficult now; but I’d also add it’s if anything even more important to be the right man, which is also much more difficult now, for interrelated reasons.
The rise of feminism and the sexual revolution has had many good consequences for career-centric, sexually non-committal men and (a much smaller number of) women, but it’s taken a heavy toll on those who desire families or a stable marriage relationship, which people are necessarily the biological (And hence, actual) future.
Men have been encouraged/coerced (depending on the context) to be or at least appear to be more feminine and submissive, women likewise to be more masculine and dominant.
Unfortunately, this is what neither gender wants either to be nor to find in a spouse, respectively. (Show me a Feminist women who claims to want a submissive, matriarchal, or even merely androgynous male, and 8 out of 10 times you’ll show me a woman who’s lying to her own self so as to be true to her in-/con-fused ideology; 1 out of 10, you’ll be showing me an alpha lesbian or bisexual. Narcissistic, anti- or pseudo-marriage alpha males are grateful to feminists that a committed marriage is considered a form of oppression–so now they’re no longer exploiting women, but instead liberating them from dependence upon men! “I’m not here to exploit your body–I’m here to free your mind!” Say it with a straight face and how-can-you-think-I-don’t-care?! pain in your eyes, and a PC coed may go for it.)
This conflict between nature and the “progressively” coercive social and intellectual constructs benefits those who reject marriage and family (e.g., militantly feminist or careerist women and playboy-wannabe men), and similar penalizes marriage-oriented women and those who in the past would be called honorable gentlemen. (Witness the media/feminist response to Promise Keepers, as just one example–scholars agree: faithful, selfless, masculine men who lead and provide are the REAL threat to women!)
“Unfortunately” for America and the Progressive world, the future is built upon strong, faithful, loving, stable families with children–very much the contrary of what the intellectually regnant ideologies (are designed to) promote (unless one simply redefines “family”, of course–as they are more than happy to. On the “correct” progressive definition of family, who could possibly be more pro-family than Hefner and Flynt, except perhaps Greer and Mackinnon? Enemies, yet with some common goals re marriage).
I’m not sure how to combat this except at the individual level–the Progressive Left in its somewhat rival forms is more dominant and coercive in university and media culture than ever before; fortunately, there are also more alternative outlets for thought and culture than ever before, too, though their influence is _comparatively_ minor and available only to those who are proactive. (One has to search for conservative thought and culture; Progressive Leftism, OTOH, is pretty much mandatory for anyone with a college education or [in watered-down form] who consumes standard news or entertainment media.)
More concretely and personally, maybe this is coincidence, but UNINTENTIONALLY every one of the last several wonderful women I’ve dated has been foreign born–highly intelligent, highly accomplished (PhD, MD, etc.), WHILE ALSO not only unafraid of my traditional, morally conservative masculinity, but highly desirous of it. It’s not easy to find highly educated and intelligent American women who share these traits in their minds (which are, hence, often in conflict with their hearts).
American women nowadays, especially more highly educated ones, do _statistically_ seem to have more of an adversarial nature to them, yet this is not by nature but by education (putting a bit of the “grrrr” back in grrrrl) and so habit, mandated by the academy and reinforced by political training at every step along the corporate ladder. (This is also via experience with the male sexually-revolutionary players, of course–the kind of men who were once disgraceful cads are now heroes of the cultural left, especially if they’re glibly PC.)
This new adversarial nature isn’t, despite Feminist claims, scary or intimidating to men (a clever rhetorical trick on their part: ideologically condemn masculinity and male strength, and then condemn men who reject said ideology as unmasculine and weak) unless it’s in a corporate or university context (the thought policeperson is NOT your friend, and DOES carry a gun re your futur). But this adversarial nature is ABSOLUTELY NOT what men want in a wife (though it can be very fun, exciting, and disposable in any number of mere flings–not exactly good things for the future of families, but then, that may be the point–or, if you’re clever just redefine “family” so that it’s _great_ for families!).
I think and fear that until the academic and (derivatively) media culture change in a substantially more morally conservative direction, this problem will persist and even worsen (though maybe we’ve already bottomed out, for now–hard to say). But just the opposite is happening: as America has become more conservative, the academy has responded with more Progressive intellectual doctrine, coercion, and hence thought-inbreeding–the cognitive rear guard of American intellectual life–suggesting that this problem will not diminish in the near- to medium-term. (Nearly every conservative high schooler I know has returned from college a lefty–and not because of indoctrination, not by any means, no! But simply because, as all their professors, books, and assignments made clear, Progressivism (moral, social, political) is the only rational option! I mean, what’s the alternative–theocracy? Blood for oil? Women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, unable to vote, raped at will, even/especially in marriage, by conservative, patriarchal Christian men following the unstated orders of Karl Rove, Dick Cheney, and James Dobson? [Silliness, of course, but you get the too-often true point.] )
Which means that successful=marriage-seeking men and women are going to have to be even more careful and determined–much more careful and determined–than their predecessors in the 40s and 50s when seeking a spouse, AND in BEING a spouse. (The culture today doesn’t just screw-up others–it screws up us, too.)
Or we can do what many leading feminists and playboys would prefer–just give up on marriage and leave the culture to them. Polyandry, polygyny, free love, and condoms (those are what make it _responsible_ hedonism!)–a better future for all, from a certain narcissistic sexually revolutionary point of view.
It may seem the glide path to oblivion, but I’m sure that with increased social responsibility to make up for the no-longer-required personal responsibility, government will make sure it all works fine in the end, so long as the government is sufficiently comprehensively Progressive. Look at Europe for a shining example of the future! Yes.
…. or, we can fight back, one relationship at a time. Alas, this is much easier said than done. But is that any different from any other critically important quest?
(Apologies for the length here, and for the lack of concise editing. :[ )
“I lost half of my assets in the divorce…”
Therein lies the mindset, in either sex, that leads to 90% of divorces: Once married, under the law, your assets are no longer just yours; they become marital property. Don’t want to share? Don’t marry.
Try this: “I received half of the marital property in the divorce, along with owing half of the obligations.”
Fight vicious, discriminatory legalisms thus: From age 21, draft a legally binding Marriage Contract, to be initialed paragraph-by-paragraph by any prospective spouse. Should she balk at endorsing various disclaimers, specifying your entitlements (not hers), committing to equitable child-rearing and property division (50:50, absent stated character deficiencies including but not limited to abandonment, abuse or alienation, adultery, addiction, and so on)– no deal.
Previous to any marriage, establish the equivalent of an Asset Protection Trust immune to spousal litigation: Incorporate a charitable/educational Family Foundation, non-profit but NOT tax-exempt; membership by invitation only; undivided interests vs. shares, i.e. no individual equity. As Founder, you become Foundation Chairman, with minimum two Officers/Trustees as Secretary, Treasurer– typically close relatives, classmates; possibly your Agent’s in-house staffers (as non-lawyers, unqualified for barratry or champetry). Your corporate Charter, plus Constitution and by-laws, will carefully circumscribe their roles.
In Delaware, such incorporations cost about $100 to register. Your local Corporate Agent’s fee is some $75 per year. Since Foundation assets are all after-tax, you incur no, repeat NO, onerous tax reporting or operational requirements: Your Foundation can distribute grants to anyone for any purpose, in any amount at any time.
Donate all income to this Foundation, after tax; contract sale/leasebacks of autos and real property; administer your retirement accounts, transfer any intellectual property (copyrights, patents et al.) for taxation at non-profit rates. The Foundation Board will compensate you in whatever form is most appropriate (grants, services-rendered, contractual agreements), immune to creditors’ or other liens.
As a corporation, your entity never terminates, meaning assets may compound forever. Should your spouse –or for that matter any litigant– lay claim on any basis to your personal assets, your minimal checking account will have to do… you have no equity in the Foundation, which as a Corporation is immune to –not liable for– personal judgments against individual members, which your binding Marriage Contract expressly prohibits anyway.
Married twenty-five years now, with three outstanding kids, given today’s radically skewed, egregiously anti-male environment, I would attempt a family only with strenuous precautions. Life may not be “all about money”, but given today’s arrogant, mean-spirited and selfish gold-diggers, you’d best not take the chance.
At biggest issue here is the changing position of women in society. For years men were in charge in the workplace and women were in charge at home. Our society has worked to ensure that women have an equal chance at work but nothing has been done to equalize the man’s power at home.
With the incentives to reward female promotion at work many men find themselves at a disadvantage in the workplace because of their sex. This may actually be the right way to deal with correcting decades of female unfriendly work conditions.
What this means, however, is that men find themselves facing the choice to enter into another social arena at a disadvantage. Marriage and long term relationships have always trended toward female control and modern men are being asked to submit to females both at work and at home in many cases.
Add to that the fact that many of the women looking to marry have no intention of raising the children from that marriage. Men’s concession to women at home was in many ways a trade off to have a caretaker and stay at home parent. Women have removed that option – sacrificing it at the altar of their professional lives.
Society for women is a win (work), win (home control). For men it is the exact opposite. By the time many of these women figure this out men have settled into a quiet happiness of having no control over their professional lives but being in total control of the off-work hours without the stereotypical unhappy, constantly nagging, “you have to do better and constantly change to make me happy while I get to stay the same” dynamic that marriage has always included. Add to that it is in fashion to bash men almost constantly for being stupid, unsophisticated and boorish.
Who in their right mind would want anything to do with that?
My wife and I have been happily married for 24 years. Are things perfect? No, but then “the perfect is the enemy of the good.” Demanding perfection of imperfect people is bound for failure and is a sign of immaturity. We have a good solid marriage and love one another very much. Life is good.
While they say that 50% of all marriages end in divorce, it doesn’t necessarily mean that any given marriage has a 50-50 chance of failure. I’ve known several serial marryers who’ve been married 3 or more times. Likewise, I know dozens of people who’ve been married for decades to a single partner.
Here are a few suggestions to a young man thinking of marriage:
1. Don’t even think about it until you’re at least 25. If you’re still sowing your wild oats and chasing women, you aren’t ready for marriage.
2. If your potential bride seems more interested in your income and assets than in you, run.
3. If your fiance starts exhibiting “bridezilla” tendencies, run even faster. A wedding is a ceremony. Along with the reception, it’s all over in a few hours. A marriage is something you want to last a lifetime. If you find yourself planning your wedding more than your marriage, then you have problems.
Maybe I’m just lucky. I do thank God I didn’t marry some of the women I dated before meeting my wife. Marriage is supposed to be a true partnership between two people. It far more than about sex.
Brian Levine’s advice is PURE GENIUS:
“Good advice for men and women: When you are courting, pay attention to how your potential mate treats people with less power than them. Do they treat waitresses, cleaning ladies, and handymen with dignity and respect or are they dismissive and callous? Because that’s how you’ll be treated as the power relationship changes during your life.”
This is something I was taught by someone years ago. This is a tried and true method of guaging a person’s character. If someone treats any person of decidedly less social power in a condescending manner because they can get away with it, you’ve just discovered 90% of that person’s true character. Run away…run away very fast!
One more tidbit: Watch out for women who want to make you their pet project. If you guys are frequently asked “Why do you hang out with so-and-so?” or “Don’t you think you’d be better off if you did such-and-such differently?”…you’re being sized up for a major overhaul as soon as the ring goes on.
So, just as a point of departure, between finding the right mate, and legal ramifications…
Finding the right mate is someting you strive for, knowing that the is no surefire way of doing it… people change suddenly or over time. Sometimes people hide some things, and sometimes you deny them. This isn’t a “New” thing. So what to do?
This is where the point about legal issues comes as a general fallback. In an advice column, there isn’t a point in making relationship generalization beyond blowing off steam. Some people prefer high maint. because it’s challenging, some prfer low maint. because it’s easy. Either extreme has it’s detractors, and so the million and one other things individuals are.
What does work as a generality is law, since in theory it has to apply broadly. Many people, once myself included, think it’s bad to start a marriage with a pre-nup, because it has a stigma of distrust. This is perhaps true, BUT it protects BOTH parties. You will notice how I have yet to mention which gender in this post. That is because the sword cuts both directions. Many states now have formulas about child support, slightly standardizing that part. What’s left is the splitting of wealth, and alimony. If you address this at the beginning then there is never a question that one person will have to provide for the other for many years, even though they have advanced degrees, and could easily work.
I boils down to this: If everyone chose their mate wisely, If everyone knew everything there is to know about their mate, we wouldn’t be having this conversation, would we? Both genders can change, and some do, because they don’t have to try anymore.
So? Protecting yourselves legally is a reasonable fallback. Accepting the risk after knowing what it might be, is only prudent on the part of both parties.
Wow. Reading these inputs just makes me realize how lucky I was. I almost married a french chick in colleges that might have lasted longer or worse, forever.
What woman would ever have allowed me to surf, just surf, for a decade. Or take a deployment to the ME. How about shooting everyday? Never happen…
“The only reason that makes any sense to get married is if you want children.”
Very true. Indeed if you are sure you will not want to have kids, consider a vasectomy while single. Accidents happen…
And ask yourself if you want kids so badly that you are willing to pay a huge price in time and money AND run a substantial risk of losing them to divorce.
Maybe volunteering at Big Brothers or something would be…er, nevermind you will profiled as a pervert.
Hey Mark:
I see those “senior” single guys living it up until they have a stoke or something. If you don’t think they are pathetic, wait. And yeah, rolling around their dirty apartment floors having sex on empty pizza boxes with match.com skanks counts as pathetic.
I’ll concede a key point–in my marriage there is far less of a power struggle because we’ve given that up–everything is jointly held and consolidated. That means EVERY transaction is transparent to the other, every financial decision is the result of joint agreement. It’s cumbersome, but there is less “power,” more consensus.
We had to reach that equilibrium to survive when we were young and poor. Now the combination makes us relentlessly powerful and honest with each other.
Man is this post an eye opener. I think I’ll stay single – this country is truly screwed thanks to the left wing.
Here is my question for the married:
If the man and woman are equal, and if there are two choices: A and B. A and B are mutually exclusive.
The husband wants A and the wife wants B.
Shouldn’t the ‘tie’ go to the man as the ‘head of the home’?
mark this is ridiculous:
“How can a marriage work when one of the spouses comes into the marriage who is not accountable for any of their actions legally or culturally because of their gender?”
Men had the upper hand for years, and yet there were many who loved and respected their wives…who didn’t feel the need to exercise their culturally condoned right to beat their wives black and blue.
Just the same, there are good women today who are appalled at man-hating, who see marriage as a promise made to God, and whom would view divorce as a monumental failure of their own moral character.
I’m one of them…of course, I’m already off the market!
Like most of society, those of you who are still insisting that marriage can work are in the same kind of denial an alcholic has, in that you continue to believe that life will get better despite drinking a fifth of whiskey a day.. “If I can just find the right situation to allow for my drinking..” Until the alcholic stops drinking, then they’re life will not improve, but only continue in a downward spiral.
The U.S. is in denial that today’s American women are Monsters and we need to change that as well as the divorce laws as well as beginning to make women accountable for their actions, otherwise getting married today is like starting a cross-country trip in your car with a flat tire and a severe oil leak- you’re going to have to fix it before you leave the driveway.
Mark and Aric -
It is much worse in Los Angeles or California.
Here, we have about 68 to 75 divorces for each 100 marriage certificates issued.
Women get custody about 80% – 90% of the time, and women file for divorce 66% to 75% of the time.
High
.75 X .75 X .90 = .506
Low
.68 X .66 X .80 = .359
In California if you are a man and you marry, you have a 40% to 50% chance of losing custody of any kids you may have, no matter what you do.
IOW, you are at the total whim of your wife 50% of the time. You have no Rights 50% of the time.
Is this a risk any reasonable man should, would or could take?
w w w.dont-marry.com
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Mama73 – what this means is the laws HAVE to change or men should boycott marriage – and let the whole society go to hell with it! they should not depend on the good will of a woman but on a just legal system. Period. I think things will get worse before they get better – if ever! Is this what we are fighting Islamo-fascism to preserve?
Consider this advice a mother gave to her daughter:
“If your husband is happy, you’re both doing something wrong.”
Marriage is a very bad thing for men indeed.
I’m 43 and unmarried. I’ve come to accept that as best I can — and I’m all right, for the most part. The way I look at it is “well, this is better than an unhappy marriage, and certainly better than a divorce.”
But let’s face it — a good marriage would be better than any of those options.
And there is the issue of living only for myself — and that’s not how people are designed.
In fact, after my last breakup (four years ago), I had to fight to shut off my protective instinct for my ex-girlfriend. I was deeply worried about her, and wanted to make sure she got herself settled and would be all right.
When she was all right, I had to stop trying to help her (we were split up, after all), even though I found it deeply satisfying — as all men and women do when they focus on helping others.
Being able to do what I want when I want does have its advantages. I don’t pretend, however, that that’s my purpose in life. Fortunately, I have my faith …
Like any high risk choice the rewards can be equally great.
I do risk managment for a living and the key point in the equation is when does the payoff/risk ballance tip.
It is even true for the lottery once it gets high enough it is worth buying every ticket.
15 years married, 6 Kids, great job that I really couldn’t have gotten without a lot of cooperation from her.
The risks are high but so is the payoff.
Mama73:
Are you sure you even understand what the subject of the discussion here? What does this have to do with men having no legal rights in a marriage? You wrote:
“Men had the upper hand for years, and yet there were many who loved and respected their wives…who didn’t feel the need to exercise their culturally condoned right to beat their wives black and blue.
Just the same, there are good women today who are appalled at man-hating, who see marriage as a promise made to God, and whom would view divorce as a monumental failure of their own moral character.
I’m one of them…of course, I’m already off the market!
Uh.. O…K. Come back sometime when you would like to join the actual discussion.
Hi DJL,
You stated that “this country is truly screwed thanks to the left wing.” It’s not just the left and the ideological feminists who are at fault, it is also the male “chivalry” of some on the right who have trampled on men’s legal rights by exaggerating the number of deadbeat dads, demanding large payouts to women in terms of alimony and seeing the state’s role as protectors and providers for women and children by using men to make this possible, sometimes at a cost that is many times more than just simple support. If men stand up to the legal system, many on the right are not supportive and say that men are whiners and should “take it like a man” when in fact, the man may be treated like a common criminal without due process and any “real” man would stand up for his civil rights. Those on the right also act like fathers are deserting their families with abandon but as a commenter pointed out, most divorces are initiated by women.
Mama 73, I don’t think you’ve taken enough time to examine the facts. The fact is, more than 70% of all divorces are filed by the woman. For a person who is supposed to be the commitment creature, this alone is a staggering stat. We are not asking ourselves the most important question: why is the woman; the one who is supposed to crave commitment, the one who seems to more often than not abhor it as well?
It’s nice that you and your husband work out so well, but all anecdotes aside, men suffer in great numbers at the hands of women today, probably much more so than women have by men, because at least women have always had a voice. Vaginal politics, going as clear back in history as Adam and Eve should be a clear testament to that. Men will never have such a manipulative bargaining chip. Furthermore, it seems that the state has done a very effective job in taking away any bargaining chip a man has ever had.
True.
What many on this thread as stating is that for them, and for increasing numbers of men, that tipping point has been reached.
There was always the risk that she would fall out of love. Always the risk she would leave for another man.
Except now, she is rewarded if she does this. She gets half of your stuff, no one holds her accountable, and the children are treated as her property.
And even more laws are passed over time that continue to make the deal a bad business decision for men.
It just doesn’t make much sense anymore.
We don’t worry about it, and frankly we don’t care what others think.
It’s our life.
Attempting to manipulate and shame men into doing what you think is right or proper or appropriate or not pathetic or whatever – it just doesn’t work any more.
Many men are questioning this long held cultural and societal value.
-Why should a woman get half of a man’s assets he had when they married?
Men and women are equal, she worked, he worked. So why does he pay Alimony and CPS?
-Why is a woman entitled to half of what a man earns during marriage?
How on earth is Heather Mills deserving of anything more that, say, £5mln?
-Why does a woman deserve to continue to live in the manner in which she has become accustomed to?
Does her ex-husband deserve to continue to have sex with her?
Does her ex-husband deserve to continue to have her cook, clean and garden?
Many Men are questioning these long held values, and find them to be unneccessary, unequal, sexist, unfair or just out of date.
Dr. Helen –
Two major issues stand out.
One: Women are now unconstrained by socio-economic pressures, or social mores. So men getting married is likely to be a moot question anyway. Since most women will choose what they are hard-wired for: the high-status Alpha Male. Think Sex and the City.
African-American women have out-of-wedlock births at around 75% or so nationally. They seem to be the canary in the coal-mine demographically speaking, and that is likely where we are headed as women lose societal constraints. A choice by women for what they really want: the most socially dominant men (that’s only a few men) for bed partners and reproductive partners.
It’s a post-marriage society. We are not going to turn the clock back.
Two: men who *DO* marry will find themselves dumped very quickly when they lose power/status/wealth/social-dominance. Remember that women absent constraints will ALWAYS choose the most dominant man, socially. All the war stories here speak to that dynamic.
The net result of this is going to be a lot of men who will never marry or be divorced and have negative experiences with women, and remain unconnected to them. While a few powerful men (think Bill Clinton or Mayor Tony Villaraigosa or Mayor Gavin Newsome) make it a point to have sex with subordinate’s wives and have multiple mistresses.
In short, the society of West Africa, the ME, parts of North Africa, and parts of SE Asia. You’ll see a LOT of violence and outright misogyny by men who will have zilch connection to women. Who in turn will be the mistresses of powerful men. You’ll also see the other markers of those societies: widespread poverty and “big man” wealth/women hoarding.
Men unconnected to women are dangerous for a society. Women overestimate their social control and should prepare themselves for misogyny by men on a widespread scale, including restrictions on women’s freedom and persons as a popular political program. What would be men’s downside? That women will continue not to sleep with them? That powerful men will continue to have most of the women?
The popularity of movies where pretty girls die instead of (being saved by brave men and of course sleep with them) disturbs me. As does the failure of any young man to try and save his female classmates from Cho at Virginia Tech. Quite literally it seems that young men have decided that young women are not worth dying for and THAT is very dangerous for society.
But hey, feminists have had their victory to choose the men they want and now they are stuck with the consequences. Power is an ugly thing.
The anecdotes are alarming, and I don’t like many societal trends. I think men often are treated unfairly in divorce, though I thankfully have no personal experience with it. But I find it hard to believe these anecdotes are truly representative.
I am male and have been married to the same woman for 37 years. We certainly have our frictions, regularly, but I cannot imagine not being married to her
I certainly have friends and associates who have been divorced, but most of them seem to be in stable and reasonably happy relationships. I find it hard to imagine the women I work with are, in their personal lives, gold-digging harpies, most of them anyway.
I think some of this is overstated.
Been there – done that.
I WILL NEVER, EVER, EVER, get screwed – errr, I mean MARRIED again. EVER.
–Confirmed bachelor (more than 20 years now).
Oh the humanity:
You said:
“I see those “senior” single guys living it up until they have a stoke or something.” If you don’t think they are pathetic, wait.”
I guess you’ll have to explain to me how only single guys have strokes???
And this:
“And yeah, rolling around their dirty apartment floors having sex on empty pizza boxes with match.com skanks counts as pathetic.”
Who said I dated or had any sex with women at all? (I’ve been with more women in my life than you have ever even met, Jethro, but when I come home now I have total peace- so it looks I might just outlive you!)
“I’ll concede a key point–in my marriage there is far less of a power struggle because we’ve given that up–everything is jointly held and consolidated. That means EVERY transaction is transparent to the other, every financial decision is the result of joint agreement. It’s cumbersome, but there is less “power,” more consensus.
We had to reach that equilibrium to survive when we were young and poor. Now the combination makes us relentlessly powerful and honest with each other.”
You’re delusional and you’re going to get screwed. You have no rights and your wife knows it and she laughs at you behind your back. She has more respect for a dog than she has for you. You’ll understand all of this as you gain more experience with women- sounds like you have a long, long way to go and a lot to learn. Good luck, you’ll need it!
I’m a 36 year old never married man, but I”ve been close a couple of times and after my last “relationship” I know that for me marriage is unlikely.
To put it bluntly, women now have pretty much all the power due to the way divorce laws work.
No-fault had become a great way for a woman to lie and cheat her way into a marriage and then hold over the man the threat of “if you don’t completely surrender to me, I can steal at least half your money.” if there are kids make it 80%. There doesn’t have to be a real reason. the man could have done nothing wrong other than just being himself, but if the wife decides she’s “bored” or “interested in another man” or “feeling trapped” or any other idea she gets in her head, she can file and immediately demand a huge portion of her soon to be ex-husbands income.
Add in they way that children are now used as a weapon, and marriage becomes even less interesting.
Me, I want to have children someday. I want to meet a woman would can be my best friend, my companion, my lover and my wife. But it has to be a joining of equals, not of me being expected to crawl around and wait on “her highness” as my last girlfriend started planning once I started talking about getting a ring. (Thank god that she revealed her true self before I took the final step.)
My recommendation to anyone who does ask me is to consider the environment the woman grew up in. If she had a close, loving and married set of parents, then it might work. Otherwise, I recommend just staying as a couple and avoiding the ring.
Or as a wise man I once met said:
There are 3 rings in marriage
The engagement ring
The wedding ring
and the suffering.
The balance of power in a modern relationships, especially marriage, heavily favors the woman. Even happily married men I know concede that, always with some bitterness in their voice. Ironically, our own sense of chivalry and being a real man does not allow us to be as capricious and downright mean as our wives or girlfriends. I knew marriage was a compromise, I didn’t know women had the right, and endorsement, if not downright encouragement, from society, to unilaterally change the terms of that compromise.
I’ve been married 22 years. The first dozen years were good to great. It’s gone downhill since. I now honestly feel betrayed, destroyed and emasculated. I am a money making robot. Were it not for our children, I’d leave. In eight years, I think I will.
This is a topic on which I have very mixed feelings.
I believe in marriage. I think it’s the best shot at lasting happiness for almost all men and women. I intend to encourage my children to get married, and I intend to see that they get first-rate advice on how to go about it.
I think the breakdown of marriage and family law is probably the strongest indictment that can be brought against the legacy of the 1960s.
On the other hand, my own marriage has become pretty miserable. It could be worse: We have never cheated on each other. She is reasonable about the finances (her income is a small fraction of mine.) She does a reasonable share of the housework. We are both committed to raising our children to be happy, good people.
However, she has not the least interest in any form of physical affection. We haven’t slept together in over five years (and it was very infrequent before then.) I can’t remember the last time she let me hold her hand or kiss her on the lips. The only time she’s told me she loves me in the last few years was when my longsuffering ran out and I threatened to leave. You will forgive me if I have some doubt that she was speaking sincerely.
I have tried to express affection in various ways. She will sometimes let me put an arm around her for a moment. Other times I get shrugged off or even shoved away. If I tell her I love her, she changes the subject. (I do still love her; I admire her talents and her commitment to the family, if not to me personally. I am her blind spot, admittedly a massive one.) I tried writing her a letter once expressing my concerns and the reply amounted to “With the kids, I don’t have time for that just now.”
I don’t doubt some here will find her despicable and me crazy for staying with her. Do remember that children are involved. Also, there are a couple of mitigating factors. She was sexually abused as a child, which she didn’t think was relevant when she married me, but I was sexually inexperienced when I married her and my clumsiness brought back the bad memories. The other mitigating factor is that I am borderline Aspberger’s. I am unusually well-adjusted to my disability, and it was not obvious to her when we married that I had significant gaps in my emotional and communications skills.
Given the choice to do it over, I think I’d decline. To say that marriage is for the great majority of people, as I did at the start of this post, is not to say that there is not a man here and there for whom it would be a mistake. I have no illusions I would be able to do any better with anyone else, nor do I have any illusions I would be very much happier choosing to be single the rest of my life, so I’m a bit frustrated with my decision set.
I suffer from some very uncomfortable chronic health problems that almost certainly arise from the stress of my situation. I am trying to work up the nerve to tell her in a kind but frank manner that if my sexual and emotional needs continue to be neglected, as they have been for many years now, I probably won’t last long enough to pay for the kid’s college. You can’t extract child support from someone who’s dead (though I wouldn’t put it past our courts to try.) But when I try to talk to her about “us” I become like the geeky biologist in The Gods Must Be Crazy. Only she isn’t amused. Generally as soon as the word “sex” comes up she lays a massive guilt trip on me.
My experience is far enough off the mean that I don’t know how much it will add to the discussion here. My apologies for that.
I plan to have someone whose marriage has been rather more successful be the one to give my children advice, when that time comes. I can only offer these thoughts, not based so much on personal experience:
1. From my observations of others, it appears that a good marriage is a lot of work but can be immensely rewarding.
2. Commitment seems more important than romantic love or almost any other consideration.
3. Picking the “right” person is overrated. It is essential that your partner be fully committed to the success of the marraige. Everything else can be worked out in time. People who believe that their marriage(s) failed because they had the “wrong” partner seem to be people who keep getting it wrong, marriage after marriage — suggesting strongly that that’s not the explanation.
4. Marriage is not all about sex, but sex is an essential ingredient for the vast majority of marriages. A person who uses sex as a weapon — including a woman who, without very good reason, withholds sex for a prolonged time — is desecrating a sacred gift.
5. Don’t get married if you are anywhere close to the autistic spectrum.
I can’t help but add my story to this thread. I am nearly 49 and have been married for 29 years. I would counsel any young man not to get married and not have kids. We got married very young, but didn’t decide to have children for 13 years. Having been through some tough times, our marriage was at it’s very best when we decided to have kids. Well, if I am truthful, SHE decided we would have kids and I decided that it would be OK. Once our daughter was born, our marriage changed forever. She stopped being a wife and was only a mother. Our sex life stopped. As much as I loved my daughter, I was stunned at what had happened. When my daughter was three, I tried to get my wife into counseling to resolve these problems. I thought it would be rather easy. Instead, I ended up moving out. Within a short time, I foolishly moved back in after she made was seemed like a sincere attempt to become a wife again.
Once again, in a fit of optimism, I let her have another child and quit working which she said was what would make her happy. Once again, I was played for a fool. I am just too nice by nature. Men aren’t taught to be fighters, indeed. With two young children, my marriage was over but I didn’t feel I would ever know these children unless I stayed married. I “stayed for the children” and spent many years in deep depression and isolation. All my attempts to renew our marriage, to be clear about what I wanted, to get her into counseling failed. Finally, I decided to end the marriage despite the fact that my lawyer said that I would be completely screwed financially. She was right.
I am now in the middle of trying to settle the divorce. I gave my wife 55% of the assets including the home. (Sorry, community property does NOT mean a 50/50 split.) She has custody of the children – that was not something even worth thinking about trying for on my part. I have been giving her half of my net income in child support and alimony. Yet, a planned settlement whereby I would give her alimony for 5 years fell through because she simply wanted more and reneged on the deal this last weekend. So, all the expense of the lawyers coming up with this plan is money down the toilet because I finally decided that I had given enough. We will have to start over and give it all to mediators, lawyers and the court. I make good money as an IT professional, but I don’t have the money to do this. No one will win.
Young men – don’t get married. Of course, I love my kids, but I thought having kids would be hard before I had them. They turned out to be WAY harder than I thought. There are lots of willing companions in the world and although they will eventually want to be married – resist. Find another one. Take it from someone who is very poor despite a good job, but is now much happier having dumped 140 lbs of redheaded, dead weight. Don’t do it, men. Build up a stock portfolio, buy that airplane, have that motorcycle, get the fast car or boat, and have a girlfriend when you want one. Kick her to the curb every Monday morning, however.
Dr. Helen,
Here’s the deal. Most women constantly re-invent reality in order to validate their emotional positions. Check out how often you hear guys say “she said X,” to which the woman will respond “I don’t remember what I said, and I shouldn’t have to, so I must have said Y.”
Men have many flaws, among which is the notion that men should be willing to be used for a meal ticket. The “social dominance” meme is totally misleading. Women despise a man they can dominate… a man who puts his foot down and says “not a chance” isn’t that creature. If the guy’s doing that in self-defense and she leaves, then guess what? Better now than fifteen years of misery later. There’s a reason men die early nowadays, and a lot of it has to do with stress trying to give women their perfect world.
But a loveless life stinks, too. So this isn’t about love. Is the legal institution stacked against men? Sure. It’s *all* stacked against men. But if you have kids with a single woman, you don’t get access to those kids if she leaves.
So my answer, with other guys in the audience, would be… want kids? If so, you’re going to have to roll the dice. Sure, the courts may rape you.. that’s what courts do. But a man who won’t risk for reward is hardly a man. And a GOOD marriage is one hell of a reward.
Jim Rockford said, “Quite literally it seems that young men have decided that young women are not worth dying for and THAT is very dangerous for society.”
Read this:
Men in the USA will not fight for this Feminist Matriarchy …
http://tinyurl.com/2qoeqk
AN ATTORNEY’S LEGAL & STATISTICAL REMARKS
I’m a California attorney. There are several facts that I think are highly relevant here:
Divorce laws well-intentioned
Divorce laws are not intended to harm men. Instead, they are intended to protect the party who sacrificed earning potential to (presumably) provide services to the family, (i.e., cooking, cleaning) during the life of the marriage. That isn’t to say these laws are fair. But they are well-intentioned.
Occasionally, women are victimized by divorce laws. I know of several instances where the husband was trying to start a rock band or an acting career. In such a situation, the law forces the woman to pay the man alimony.
Married men more likely to commit adultery
Married men are slightly more likely to commit adultery than their wives (according to most statistical sources). This isn’t to say women aren’t to blame for adultery in such cases-the man is typically committing adultery with a single woman, who must share blame.
4 DIVORCE RULES THAT DISCRIMINATE AGAINST MEN
Child Custody
1) The woman nearly always gets the children. This is plainly discrimination. However, it is nowhere mandated by law-it’s an unwritten rule. It is a product of biased judges who are typically elderly and liberal, and for those reasons tend to see women as inherently more virtuous than men.
Child Support for Children born from adultery
2) If the woman has a child by a man who is not her husband, her husband must pay her child support for the baby, so long as she can keep the child’s paternity hidden from the husband for a year. This is perhaps the most outrageous law of which I am aware. Many states other than California have a version of this law.
No assurance that child support is spent on children
3) The law aggressively pursues men who do not pay child support, but provides no real assurance that the support is actually used for the benefit of the children.
Married Women’s Special Presumption
4) Women married before 1972 (I think I have the date right) may keep gifts given by their husbands following a divorce, but the same is not true for men. This is explicitly discriminatory and most lawyers agree that it would not survive constitutional scrutiny. But the law has yet to be challenged successfully. It is called the “Married Women’s Special Presumption.” This law is only operative in California.
“Ironically, our own sense of chivalry and being a real man does not allow us to be as capricious and downright mean as our wives or girlfriends. I knew marriage was a compromise, I didn’t know women had the right, and endorsement, if not downright encouragement, from society, to unilaterally change the terms of that compromise.”
Perfectly stated. This very hostile and insane environment created by my wife was the cause of my alcohol addiction, so I left my wife and almost overnight, lost all desire for alcohol. I am so happy now alone. I have peace. I suggest to any of you men out there with alcohol problems who are married carefully consider the source of your pain that is causing your addiction. There’s about a 95% chance it’s sleeping right next to you.
I remember back as recently as the 70′s when I used to respect women so much and long to be with them because they showed some degree of respect and had not been infected with the feminist virus so horribly yet. Feminism has made U.S. women monsters and now they demand respect, and now, ironically, I have lost all respect for them. You see, respect is not something you demand, respect is something you earn.
Because women in the U.S. have become so monsterous, I have also lost all sexual attraction to them as well. Their personalities are either so offensive or so sickeningly fake, I’m happiest when they’re not around.
Now women to me just appear as something that crawled up out of Hell. No accountablity, no respect for men, as venerally diseased public toilets, with all the charm of an open sewer, women in the U.S today are cockroaches.
KenB–I think you’re right about a degree of (understandable, but still incorrect) overstatement here.
We don’t want to yield to the same kind of emotional stuff that feminism did–where some very bad experiences (in that case combined with Marxism, alas–talk about two bad foundations) lead to a dysfunctional and self-fulfillingly negative ideology.
Men need to remember: while it’s absolutely true (IMHO) that a relevantly good woman is much harder to find nowadays (i.e., not a good boss, or a good athlete, or a good lawyer, or a good scientist, etc., but specifically a good _wife_), it’s also honestly true from their perspective that a good man is similarly hard to find.
It used to be that men (and women) were _expected_ (descriptively and prescriptively) to be marriageable (which was a very good thing, unless you just never wanted to get married, in which case it was … annoying). Society and culture pushed people to be married and marriageable, with children and hence the future being the big winners. But nowadays, both men and men are inculcated with dysfunctional characteristics: women tend to be more feministic (and hence more selfish, hostile, unfaithful, and condescending with respect to men), but, in major part also due to feminism, men tend to be less capable of marriage: ideologically, men have been taught that traditional marriage, chivalry, and male leadership (patriarchy) are forms of oppression and bigotry, hence not goods to be encouraged and civilized, but evils to be discouraged and ostracized. Such indoctrination has worked surprisingly well, statistically speaking, at least.
Also, it’s hard to imagine the the Internet ubiquity of pornography and the sexually revolutionary hook-up culture (the latter routinely being endorsed academically) isn’t synergistically taking a toll, both catering to and creating men with much higher IQs than (relationship) EQs, and making women, and particularly a committed relationship with a woman, increasingly optional for a physically (if not spiritually) gratifying form of sexual expression.
Ditto for Hollywood, which visually indoctrinates men that all women worth having are physically intoxicating, indoctrinates women to a lesser extent that any man worth having is rich, handsome, and very clever with words, and further indoctrinates them that this approach to mate selection works well in the end–both ideology (the sexual revolution, kin to but not the same as feminism) and superficial marketing (nobody wants a movie or TV show like real life–they want it to be much more interesting NOW, and superficial appeal counts hugely to that end) causing this.
(I really don’t think men’s brains were designed to resist this level of appeal–beautiful Hollywood starlets in most TV shows, 18-year-old fantasy nudes available from every browser–and certainly not without society’s help, which used to be there, but no longer, outside of a church or other morally conservative context–which contexts are, of course, objects of cartoonish mockery in Hollywood and the academy.)
But this just means that marriage takes much more effort, first to (1)aggressively BE the right kind of person, then to (2) aggressively FIND and WIN the right kind of person, and then to (3) aggressively MAKE IT LAST against all the ideological, internal (we’re wired for infidelity in the state of nature, I’m afraid), and social (including some market forces, I’d suggest, even as a free market conservative) working against you.
It certainly can be done–go abroad if that’s better, so long as you keep (1) first–but it’s not automatic anymore (if it ever was).
Dr. Helen, you make a great point too, one that I hadn’t considered enough, about chivalrous, conservative male (count me in!) contributions to this problem: feminists have been extremely adroit at manipulating chivalry to (a) prevent criticism of feminism (who hasn’t noticed that every criticism or feminism is conflated by feminists and compliant media into an attack on women, from which chivalrous men revolt), and (b) to turn a chivalrous man’s eagerness to take personal responsibility in the protection of women into a naive willingness to believe the worst–often individually justified, but statistically dubious–about other men. There are, after all, plenty of cads in the world; thanks to feminism and the sexual revolution, no doubt many more than in the past. But men (and women) should be very skeptical of feminist claims which are typically gross distortions (dubious quasi-marxist and deconstructionist ideology _plus_ group think _plus_ intellectual affirmative action in the academy).
One more independent issue making things very difficult: men and women have been indoctrinated into thinking, intellectually, that age doesn’t matter. Well, of course, it does, and a woman who follows feminist advice to make sure her career comes first and then decides to get married in her 30s and 40s should realize that she’s facing much longer odds of getting married (or having children), other things being equal, since men are physically more attracted to fertile youth than to possibly/probably/certainly infertile middle age, and sexual appeal is, naturally speaking, all about having kids–or perhaps its due to a patriarchal agenda to devalue women of age and promote chattel slavery of an entire gender.
(The real and tragic irony comes when a foxy single-and-loving, sexually very progressive babe in her 20s decides to settle down in her 30s or 40s and discovers that she’s not nearly as sexually compelling as feminists told her she would be once the shackles of patriarchy were crushed by force. Indeed, she’s now defeated in her hopes by the new generation of what she happily was 10 or 20 years earlier.
)
Hi John Blake,
I enjoyed your comment, and wondered if you had any further info in the form of books/URLs. Thanks in advance.
Steve
As comedian Bobby Slayton said, “The marriage deal is that I can’t sleep with anyone else for the rest of my life, and if things don’t work out, she gets all my stuff.”
Big joke.
Thanks for posting that, Lee. I understand Meade’s greater point in questioning my statement “I lost half of my assets in the divorce”, and I will say that it is difficult not to have that perspective once you have been divorced, regardless of how you felt during the marriage.
It is because of the accounting that is required during a divorce that this happens. And quite literally, in the case of my marriage, they truly were my assets, as I discovered when I was asked to prepare the petition for divorce:
I brought a house and investments into the marriage. My ex-wife brought student loan debt. I was the only one working throughout the marriage. We had no children. We shared the housework. Eventually I hired a cleaning service. We spent incredible sums of money and time on an idea for her own business. It didn’t work, and I was left to clean up the debts and the pieces after the divorce.
So quite honestly, it isn’t a question of “if you don’t want to share, then don’t get married.” I did share. I did support. I was glad to, up to the point where my ex-wife began endangering our finances to indulge her personal insecurities. Because she didn’t share. She didn’t support.
Read the remainder of my comment, and you’ll see that I will risk this type of loss again. I will share my assets again. The right person is the key. The right person will understand that these will become “our” assets in the marriage, and will treat them as such, and not as their personal means to self-actualization at the cost of the marriage.
To another comment, it is very possible to be a loving, honest, charitable, supportive person and attract the exact opposite mate. (My ex-wife’s attorney even asked her, “Are you sure you can’t stick it out for a few more years?”) Not that my ex-wife was that opposite person, but she clearly was not the mate for me, and I was not the mate for her.
I don’t mean to chase men away from marriage. My point was: “marriage is worth it, for the right person.” But don’t expect your mate to magically become that person just because you get married.
mark -
My point was that in times when men had the upper hand (and there was such a time not long ago) there were still good men.
There are still good women out there .
I actually believe that the pendulum has swung too much in the other direction, but I see guys saying they want to swear off marriage and children completely and it makes me sad.
Marriage is hard, but so are a lot of good things! And children…well…they are amazing.
DJL,
The culture needs to change before there will be will enough to change the laws. I think the best way to do that is to find the few good women who are out there and raise good sons and daughters.
Yep, someone’s finally nailed it. That’s why I’m still single at 62….and intend to stay that way.
Everytime I got close, either some guy I knew well would get hit with a divorce (and taken to the cleaners) or a new acquaintance would come from the ranks of the walking wounded. Once I heard the story, I realized it could just as easily have been me.
More easily, really. These guys were all straight-up, hard working, considerate, thoughtful men with few issues. I looked up to many of them. If that’s what happens to the good guys, then what chance would someone with obvious faults have?
Thank Heaven I realized at a young age (in the 1960s) that it would never work. It’s much worse now.
I’ve made many mistakes and I continue to make mistakes; but they’re all minor and easy to recover from. Throw a marriage into the mix and any one of them could have led to ruin.
My only regret: The folks never understood.
SJ
There are two aspects to the example given: 1) The woman left when the man was no longer bringing in as much money, and 2) She got an inequitable split during the divorce. As for item 1), it sounded like the very common, though usually not discussed, exchange of hotness (female) for wealth/power (male) was made. The female retained her hotness when the male lost his power. The partnership was no longer even; she split to find one that was. Just like the more classic divorce version where men split when they retain their power but the female loses her hotness. If you enter a barter marriage and you thought it was love, well maybe you over-rated your other (non-hot or power) assets. Get help. Stop living in La La land and come to terms with your actual worth to a marriage partner — one, that is, that you would accept. As for item 2), well the courts can measure wealth, but not hotness, so they deal in what they can measure, and therefore defend. Want to marry, and be reasonably safe? Marry within the same region of your own hotness and wealth. If you don’t, be clear on your worth,and the ramifications of losing your worth before your partner. Yeah, maybe one in a thousand times a really hot babe will actually love to distraction and elderly and paunchy, but powerful (compared to her) male. That leaves 999 times it is convenient for both until one can no longer keep up. And for God’s sake, stop whining if you no longer are able to provide your share of the bargain and get dumped. Prostitution is a lot like that.
There are two aspects to the example given: 1) The woman left when the man was no longer bringing in as much money, and 2) She got an inequitable split during the divorce. As for item 1), it sounded like the very common, though usually not discussed, exchange of hotness (female) for wealth/power (male) was made. The female retained her hotness when the male lost his power. The partnership was no longer even; she split to find one that was. Just like the more classic divorce version where men split when they retain their power but the female loses her hotness. If you enter a barter marriage and you thought it was love, well maybe you over-rated your other (non-hot or power) assets. Get help. Stop living in La La land and come to terms with your actual worth to a marriage partner — one, that is, that you would accept. As for item 2), well the courts can measure wealth, but not hotness, so they deal in what they can measure, and therefore defend. Want to marry, and be reasonably safe? Marry within the same region of your own hotness and wealth. If you don’t, be clear on your worth,and the ramifications of losing your worth before your partner. Yeah, maybe one in a thousand times a really hot babe will actually love to distraction and elderly and paunchy, but powerful (compared to her) male. That leaves 999 times it is convenient for both until one can no longer keep up. And for God’s sake, stop whining if you no longer are able to provide your share of the bargain and get dumped. Prostitution is a lot like that.
Actually, this article says divorce rates are actually going down among well educated women:
http://www.divorcereform.org/nyt05.html
Hey, that’s me!
…but this doesn’t clear up the other issue of laws being unfair to men at this time. They are, so what do we do about it? (Other than trying to bring up our kids the right way & posting on blogs.)
Lawyers out there?
Jenny,
Maybe a photograph from when the woman was 20 could be used to make a comparison as to whether the man got a bargain or not. Seriously, you have a shallow perspective on relationships and human beings in general. People are not just their looks and wealth. Believe it or not, human beings are more complex than that. Not everyone looks at people as a product to be bartered. At least, I hope not.
“Marry within the same region of your own hotness and wealth.”
Jenny, let me guess, you’re an American Woman?
Mama73, LAWYERS ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM! They benefit greatly from this mess. They aren’t interested in improving the situation because that would result in lost revenue.
As long as Feminists are around, things aren’t going to improve; they’ll only get much, much worse.
Men, any improvements regarding marriage/divorce/relationships in say, oh, the last 40 years?
…and Jenny being an American woman probably overrates her own “hotness.”
About 41% to 43% of first marriages in the USA will end in Divorce.
In California there are 75 Divorce Filings for every 100 Marriage Licences issued per year.
Then there is the fact that Divorce Rates per 1,000 are dropping because the Marriage Rate per 1,000 is dropping, because fewer people are marrying in the USA.
>
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My wife of 23 years died recently. She could be an extremely difficult woman yet even during the rockiest times I never wanted a divorce. I liked being married even if some times I was not that enthusiastic about who I was married to.
I had thought that eventually I would marry again. As I said, I liked being married. However, this parade of horror stories is seriously causing me to rethink that plan. Maybe after the kids are on their own I’ll just sell the house, split the money among them and join a monastery.
Helen:
“Seriously, you have a shallow perspective on relationships and human beings in general.” Actually, no. Just pointing out that a lot of people are. And that men are as notorious (or more so) for leaving a woman for a younger model as women are for leaving an out of work man — given they have the personal assets to have an attractive option. And often the person getting divorced for their partner’s shallow reasons, are equally shallow — it’s just that their shallow reasons are still being met.
college kid:
True, and thank God. Puts me in a position to be able to work and earn a good living. Financially, I can leave whenever I want — an option a woman without a career doesn’t have unless she wants to risk having to work at McDonalds to pay the bills, regardless of how unfair some divorces are to the man.
Ciaran:
Two kids and 20 years later, and being fairly analytical by nature, having fairly good eye sight and a mirror — not so much. Actually, never was at the front of the pack.
Still married, still liking it. Have two great kids, now adolescents. Didn’t marry for wealth, power, or even six pack abs. And will neither destroy my mate nor be destroyed by him, financially or emotionally, if we divorce. But I am impatient with hypocrites.
That being said, there are some horrible divorce stories on both sides of the fence. I’m not sure there are any laws that could be written that can stop shallow, needy, etc. couples that divorce from hurting each other — or even keep one from being hurt more than the other.
Also, the laws we have now were, by and large, passed by males, and most judges interpreting the laws are still male. Kind of intriguing to consider the psychology that would cause them to be more harsh on men.
Since marriage is a sacred vow and divorce is not an option, my life has become just like the song:
So now I’m praying for the end of time
To hurry up and arrive
’cause if I got to spend another minute with you
I don’t think that I can really survive
I’ll never break my promise
Or forget my vow
But God only knows what I can do right now
Praying for the end of time
It’s all that I can do!
Praying for the end of time
So I can end my time with you!
I fear the day when my son comes to me for advice about getting married. I have no idea how I will handle that.
In spite of a very twisted and unfair system, there are good women who will not take advantage of their right to take advantage.
I’m disabled and stay home: I do all the housework and cooking and family-stuff: I’m FULLY aware that if my wife divorced my she would have no obligation to support me; even though if the genders were reversed I would have an obligation to support her. I am FULLY aware of the discrimination.
This is what we should be teaching our boys!
- The system is unfair to males
- YOU must know how the discrimination and bigotry will effect you
- You must protect yourself, no one will do it for you
- You must be willing to fight her if it comes down to a fight
- You MUST choose well when looking for a wife
- There are good women who will not take advantage of the unfairness or their right to be unfair
I must begin by saying that “Should men get married?” collectivizes the subject in a fashion that makes any imaginable answer essentially useless. Ask rather, “Should I, John Q. Smith, get married to Mary Jones?”
Maybe. How well do you know her? How well do you know her family? A woman’s family is often a great influence on her state of mind and her ability to hold to her commitments. What about her desires for the future? When she speaks of them, do they seem individualistic or family-oriented? How well do those desires mesh with your own plans and aspirations?
Does she have her eye on something hazy and distant, failure to achieve which is likely to sour her over the long term? Most of us never achieve our highest goals, and many of us suffer serious personality and character deterioration when we realize that our defeats are permanent.
Is she obsessed with material goods? Virtually every man knows times of hardship, whatever the reason. Would she stand by you loyally, should you experience one, or would she add to your stresses? What would her family and friends say to her in such circumstances?
Probably the all-important question is that of children. Do you both want children? (If not, why marry?) If so, can you be reasonably sure that she’ll undertake the responsibilities of childrearing willingly and with adequate devotion? Or will she come to feel herself a victim because of the burden? Don’t kid yourself: childrearing is the mother’s task. Men are not suited to it, for reasons of basic evolutionary biology and psychology. If she’s averse to childrearing duties, then nothing she says about wanting children is trustworthy.
Time was, we took our time getting to know a prospective spouse. Getting reliable answers to the questions above was the reason.
Everyone is alone in the end. We all die in our own arms.
If you think marriage will save you the indignities of misfortunate ageing possibilities, well, more denial power to ya.
More than one man has been left to deal with his stroke all by his lonesome, marriage or no.
Women tend to outlive men by around 7-10 yrs and if you’ve ever been anywhere near an aged care home, nursing home or aged hospital ward, your heart would sink to your feet at the sad and sorry sight of elderly women with incredibly afraid and needy looks in their eyes.
Some folks have a very deluded notion of life and how it tends to end.
Getting hitched because of your fears of aged convalescence or having a nurse maid after a stroke… now that is very sad indeed. Pity the poor schlep who married ya.
Jenny, what a surprise, an American Woman with the usual chip on her shoulder and coiled like a rattlesnake ready to strike attitude. And you wonder why American Women have become the least marriageable women on the planet? I’ll take another guess, you’re a Feminist? And you have the audacity to say this:
“Also, the laws we have now were, by and large, passed by males, and most judges interpreting the laws are still male. Kind of intriguing to consider the psychology that would cause them to be more harsh on men.”
You fail to recognize the Feminist agenda behind it all?
Do yourself a favor, and read Mr. Baskerville’s book mentioned above called Taken into Custody.
Two overview comments.
First point: the legal system. Few commenters here are noticing what Stephen Baskerville’s “Taken Into Custody” is about: about the incentivization of bad behavior toward fathers. People here are commenting about marriage, as if marriages break up just because men make bad choices in their wives. But the point is that the legal system has morphed 180 degrees over the last 30 years, and perverse incentives for divorce have multiplied to the point that the legal system now catalyzes, encourages, and amplifies family breakup and child misery.
It’s not just that “bad women” screw their husbands in divorce courts-that’s a given. It’s that the legal system now encourages and gives great rewards for such socially destructive behavior. Any women who is on the cusp between behaving well and behaving badly in court finds that the public system pushes her toward bad behavior.
Second point: the culture. Both the “at large culture” and the “courtroom culture” encourage women to be vengeful, destructive and focused on getting even. These two zones of culture-the macro and the micro-are connected. The man-hatred visible in the larger culture is enacted within the confines of courtrooms everywhere-and almost no one says the obvious thing, which is, “This is really wrong and destructive.”
It’s time that we started to say that, though. “This man hatred and father hatred is wrong and destructive, and we do not respect it.”
In “Politics and the English Language” George Orwell said that most people believe that their individual efforts can do nothing about the degrading of language-but he urged people to understand that their individual efforts do make a difference. Same here. Some parts of our culture are urging women to hate their husbands and hurt them. We ned to understand our individual efforts make some difference: we have the power to stand up against the misandrists and their allies in state legislatures and say, “For shame! Stop it!”
Mr. Baskerville’s book is first-rate muckraking and reportage about the cesspool that family law has become in the last 30 years. One action available to anyone is to buy a copy or ask your library to order one.
Here is what I see it happen all the time: Guys marry women who are stellar examples of womanhood PHYSICALLY. That these woman lack character isn’t a consideration, they are nasty pieces of work, but look good. Meanwhile these guys have as friends some stellar examples of women with good character whom they ignore as potential wives. These women aren’t ugly but they don’t fit the definition of beauty given in the media. Only very rarely do I see women of good character get married. Why? I see needy bitches get married all the time. Why?
My Dad was destroyed by my mother’s desertion back in 1955. He died young from grief at not being permitted to see the children even when the court had ordered my mother to let him — the police simply refused to get involved. The injustice to men in family law is amazing.
I have a marriage I would not give up. And I am sure (having experiences that seem proof) that my wife would not give up either. And that is why I want to support the few who say it is all about commitment not “the right person”.
[Some who have said it is all about the right person, really mean "a person who will commit". But most people mean by "the right person" to point to character traits, compatibility, "hotness", wealth, and other illusions.]
Commitment means: divorce is not an option, ever, in any circumstances, ever. PERIOD
[There are circumstances, few and far between, not 50% or 75%, when separation is necessary. Divorce or taking up with someone else, however, is never necessary.]
Once you let yourself think divorce is an option, sooner or later that is the option you will choose. For marriage to last, you have to close the exits and paint them over.
Jenny has made the most powerful single post. Her succinct statement lays bare the foundation of “the right person” illusion.
OK. Now, my advice?
If you are willing to make an absolutely irrevocable commitment to live your life with someone who you are certain is capable of making the same to you, and you intend to have children together, then by marrying you will do the greatest thing you can ever possibly do with your life.
Marriage and child-rearing are the essential natural ends of us all.
There are things you can get out of marriage too, of course. And many of them are very precious… if you get the right person. But those things are not worth getting married for. And a marriage cannot last that depends on getting, nor on giving. Only absolute commitment can do that.
Also, such a commitment, when both know it is there, brings such a depth of joy and happiness that it is unspeakable.
ZSA
Jenny has hit on the very reason that I hide the fact that I have money at all. I live in a moderate home and drive a moderate car (Honda) and have a big bank account. I present myself as one who makes enough to modestly provide for a family but not enough to keep a women. That attracts women who are partnership minded and filters the rest automatically. My motto: You can tell what kind of person someone is by how they treat people who don’t have anything that is advantageous for them.
I’m 35, never married, no children, and have no plans to marry-in this country(USA), anyway. I’d side with those who hold that the only possible motivation for marriage nowadays in this culture is to raise children, and with the custody/child support situation such as it is the risks are huge.
In both sets of my grandparents, I saw a model of marriage. The men worked/pursued careers for the sake of the family-not personal aggrandizement. The women ran the household. And I mean RAN the household. Each looked after the other in what I perceived to be an equal partnership. Disagreements were worked out because divorce didn’t seem to even exist as an option. Work wasn’t the end-all-be-all of personal fulfillment, and housework/rearing a family wasn’t belittled or considered menial.
I grew up seeing family as the central lodestone of an individual’s life, and assumed I would marry once and for life. Then in the early eighties I started seeing my friends’ parents splitting up…with what seemed to be increasing frequency. The stigma against divorce grew weak then apparently disappeared. Confusion spread over gender roles (do we even have them anymore?)To simply be a male seemed to imply collusion with vast wrongs done womankind throughout history. Redressing these wrongs requires men to be ‘equal partners’ now. For many, that apparently means to fulfill the previous role of primary breadwinner willing to sacrifice for the family…but to expect absolutely nothing in return.
I don’t think that bias in the legal system(imagined or real) is the root problem. If only that were the case, it could be remedied. Rather, the sweeping social changes of the past fifty years have atomized traditional societal and family bonds, but have yet to provide satisfying replacement arrangements. I rather doubt we can go back,but I certainly can’t see a resolution to these problems in the near future.
Of 20 once or currently married coworkers in my blue-collar job, perhaps 3 or 4 are happily settled with their first and only spouse. The rest are divorced (some more than once,) or wish they were. With the 7 or 8 who have an ex and children under 18, it’s common to see them handing over a third of their check which she spends as she sees fit. Perhaps on the kids, perhaps on a shiny new car. I’ve watched two men go through unwanted splitups that were devastating, parting with over half their assets but loosing much more in terms of identity and meaning as husbands and fathers.
I’ve been in a steady relationship for ten years, living together for six. My financial contribution to the household is 10 to 1 compared to my partner’s, and I work longer hours to fulfill our financial commitments. I bought the house, I pay the bills. And yet we are supposed to share in household chores-living more like roommates. If we were married, the only difference is that she would legally own half. And I’m supposed to go for that?
Still on my first wife, 28 years, five kids, from young working newlyweds to medical school for me while she worked, to Navy Medical service from 81-94, living in some lonesome and ugly and some lovely places, to working together to get a private practice off the ground and sweating bullets over finances, to watching the happy kids grow and crying over the one who will always be lost.
I recognize some of the demon wives in these comments; a couple of my good friends married them and were destroyed. And THE salient factor I notced in those failed marriages? She clearly didn’t respect him. What the guy said about watching how your prospective mate treats menials: these women treated them with contempt. So true.
Love is necessary, but respect is essential. If I lost everything my gal wouldn’t leave, but if I then moped around and didn’t get out there and do somthing-anything- to get back on my feet, she probably wouldn’t divorce me- she’d shoot me, and damned right to do it.
I have great respect for her, and with good reason.
Just as vital: it’s not about YOU. If you (or she) are selfish, you’re done. If it doesn’t occur to you to pass up that great hunting trip because she’d be alone that week (and keep your mouth shut about it), you’ll fall apart when hard times come. Not saying you should always, or even usually, pass up the trip. If she’s any good, she’ll want you to go, because she knows it’s not all about HER either.
Finally, a story from Camp Lejeune Naval Hospital. Little old lady with incurable liver disease. I knew I couldn’t save her, but I was able to “keep the ball in play” almost two years. Every admission to the hospital, every office visit, her husband was there with her. The nurses knew them both well.
One day she crashed and I had to admit her. The nurses asked where her husband was. “Oh, dearie, he’s out golfing with his friends.”
“GOLFING??? WHEN YOU’RE SO SICK?”
“Dear, when you’ve been married awhile, you’ll understand that men have these….things…that they need to do once in awhile. If you don’t let them, they’ll never be right.”
LT said,
“I’ve been in a steady relationship for ten years, living together for six. My financial contribution to the household is 10 to 1 compared to my partner’s, and I work longer hours to fulfill our financial commitments. I bought the house, I pay the bills. And yet we are supposed to share in household chores-living more like roommates. If we were married, the only difference is that she would legally own half. And I’m supposed to go for that?”
LT, you better study up on cohabitation laws. With the marriage strike in full force, the greedy corrupt Family Court system needs fresh blood and they’ll soon be punishing you and giving “half” of your stuff to her if you break up. I believe the state of Washington is already doing this.
Search for “Meretricious Relationship”.
http://www.everettlawyers.com/faq/meretricious.htm
You’d be foolish to think the courts are going to side with the man.
http://tinyurl.com/27v4o5
I agree with Mike that respect is essential for a woman to love a man. I met so many “nice” guys when I was single that I couldn’t help but look down on. They whined so much!
My husband only whines for comic effect (which is acceptable).
Its kind of cheesy, but I think Doc Love’s advice is kind of right on to guys looking for wives.
You don’t have to be a jerk, but for heaven’s sake only a cruel manipulative witch wants a push over.
earlier I posted and indicated that I was rather against marriage in today’s culture and I’ve noticed a number of other men show similar leanings.
I think those that put it best indicated an understanding that marriage doesn’t have the same meaning it once did. And the increasing number of divorces and single mothers show that.
The problem is that woman are now being told they don’t need to have a man in their life to succeed. They are told they can raise children on their own, with generous support from the government, and sadly, too many people actually bless this arrangement with government as father de facto.
So now, marriage doesn’t benefit the women like it should. Admittedly they should find their husband to be a companion, supporter, partner and lover, but they no longer need him for those. Women are told that they can take any man as a lover, not to cleave to one man. They are told that by themselves they can make the money to raise children and keep a home. The police will protect them and their children. Teachers can serve in loco parentis to help teach right and wrong. And if they fail in their career, welfare and other programs from the government will keep a roof over their heads and food in their stomachs (if the government doesn’t just use child support to steal the money from the father to provide for her.)
the whole marraige contract has become a lie.
In an earlier age, it was well understood.
Women especially when pregnant didn’t have many opportunities for work and also needed protection from the many dangers they faced.
Men wanted children, but also wanted some assurance that they were raising their own children.
So cultures developed an agreement we now call marriage.
The woman promises to stay with the man and have children with him. She will let no other man touch her sexually, and will respect and honor him.
the man will go out and earn the provender for the family, build and maintain the home and protect his wife and children. He would also honor his wife by not looking elsewhere for companionship.
that was the agreement. But now, women can provide for themselves, so the man is not seen as necessary by a generation of women. They have lost respect for marriage and men are fleeing it as they no longer believe they will receive fair treatment.
Sad, but its reality.
what’s worse is if you look at the societies where large numbers of children are still being born, most are still very patriarch and violent. Unmarried men who have little prospect of finding a woman often take great risks hoping to achieve some significant and glorious victory to attract or win women, and the men who do interest women work hard to keep them from achieving any level of freedom. We may mock them, but culturally there is an understanding that allowing women to control marriage will only destroy it as an institution and for now, those cultures fight against it.
Statistics have proven – time and time again – that the single most cause of divorce is marriage.
Guys, save yourselves the hassle – and the money. Stay single!
Mama73 – Actually, this article says divorce rates are actually going down among well educated women:
http://www.divorcereform.org/nyt05.html
Maybe that is because fewer well-educated women; the well salaried ones mostly, are even getting married in the first place, through no fault or decision of their own, might I add. More and more men are wising up, and not touching them:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/sandra_parsons/article2678237.ece
“Jenny :
Helen:
“Seriously, you have a shallow perspective on relationships and human beings in general.” Actually, no. Just pointing out that a lot of people are. And that men are as notorious (or more so) for leaving a woman for a younger model as women are for leaving an out of work man — given they have the personal assets to have an attractive option. And often the person getting divorced for their partner’s shallow reasons, are equally shallow — it’s just that their shallow reasons are still being met.”
Jenny, the first rule we must establish is that notoriety does not equal frequency. The fact that women have hyped up the textbook case for divorce doesn’t make the hype correct. Now, through the most revealing statistic that the majority of women leave their men without hesitation, because they know that the state will pick up after them, it is certainly not hype to say that women should have all the notoriety that they project onto men.
I asked a question earlier, and nobody has bothered to give an explanation, so I will ask it again: Why is it that 70% OF ALL DIVORCES are instigated by the ones who are supposed to crave commitment? In short, why is it that the ones who are supposed to be commitment creatures; asking for commitment so liberally, are the very ones who also shun and abhor commitment?
Credentials: Late forties, married twice, the first for nine years, the second for thirteen and counting (no end in sight.)
There are two things I think I can add to this discussion, one focused on the front end and one on the back end:
1) Guys tend to not do due diligence when selecting their mate. They don’t do the hard work of having a good long engagement, they marry before they have several years of experience with the woman, and oh surprise… the woman turns out to be a shrew. If you asked their buddies, every one would say “Oh man, I knew she was a bitz but you seemed to think she was great, so I supported you.”
2) When guys divorce, they tend to take their hands off the wheel and let the woman control the course of events. They are embarrassed, or they are good people and they think by cooperating they can get through this and just go on with their life. Wrong. If you did the due diligence and the woman fooled you, you need to, figuratively, put your boot on her throat until she is the one who says “Take whatever you want, just leave me alone.” You have to deal with this… if she pulls a knife, you need to pull a gun. Show her your joint net worth statement and tell her “Listen, we can split this, or we can give it to our lawyers. I don’t give a crap, you choose.” You can go into therapy afterward and cry about how you feel really guilty about bankrupting her if you want to, but guess what: You’ll have the resources to go on with your life and have a chance at being happy. You might even earn your children’s respect in the process.
Get married or not get married? It depends on the woman and how strong a man you are. But it is not for weaklings or the faint of heart.
Does the phrase “self-fulfilling prophecy” mean anything to you feckless Bittermans?
I have no more sympathy for the wife who married the studly but retarded alcoholic, who then emotionally abuses her, than I do the whiners on here who married for whatever reason the wrong person.
You made the wrong choice, with total freedom to do so, and now you have the nerve to complain about it by attacking the institution of marriage, not your own idiotic decision making?
I’m a huge fan of Rush, but when it comes to marriage, he’s a damn fool.
So are you people. Why would you want to keep typing and remove all doubt of this, for all the world to see?
The fact of the matter is, your failure in the most important aspect of your life is not okay, and never will be. You need to accept that, as a pseudo-soldier would accept the fact that in a fictional war movie he is “already dead,” and get on with it.
It being life. BUCK UP!
You foolishly entered into a legal agreement basking in your ignorance of the ramifications of your actions, combined with, yes, a system that has adapted over the years to screw you.
The least you ingrates could do is appreciate the fact that you got to screw up your own life, unlike so much of this God forsaken planet’s inhabitants.
Mama73, you said:
“I agree with Mike that respect is essential for a woman to love a man. I met so many “nice” guys when I was single that I couldn’t help but look down on. They whined so much!
My husband only whines for comic effect (which is acceptable).
Its kind of cheesy, but I think Doc Love’s advice is kind of right on to guys looking for wives.
You don’t have to be a jerk, but for heaven’s sake only a cruel manipulative witch wants a push over.”
This isn’t 1979, this is 2007, and culture, expectations and the law has changed, so let me bring you up to date: As a man in 2007, you cannot ‘take charge’ with a woman, you cannot ‘tell her what to do,’ or ‘lay down the law,’ be ‘firm,’ ‘stand your ground,’ or ‘dominate’ with a woman or in other words, ‘be a man’ or a ‘man in charge’ that women want. Why? Because today that is now considered ABUSE and a woman will call 911 in 3 seconds if you so much tell her ‘no’ TO ANYTHING. GOT IT? GET IT? GOOOOOOOD.
Try being a man today in 2007, then get back to us and let us know how it goes, until then, you don’t have any idea what you’re even talking about.
John says: “I asked a question earlier, and nobody has bothered to give an explanation, so I will ask it again: Why is it that 70% OF ALL DIVORCES are instigated by the ones who are supposed to crave commitment? In short, why is it that the ones who are supposed to be commitment creatures; asking for commitment so liberally, are the very ones who also shun and abhor commitment?”
I have no agenda to push re “who are more evil: men or women.” Okay? I’m not after that at all. But John’s point is a very valid one. I don’t take statistics for the gov’t and I’m not a Ph.D., but I have personally known three marriages to break up because SHE was sidappointed by his earning potential. I have known too many women who hold the words “for richer or poorer” to mean nothing at all!
Spare me the “he’s afraid of commitment” crap. He’s terrified of making a huge mistake!
Mark,
You sound like all the boys I did my best to avoid.
There is a difference between “taking charge” and “dominating”. Likewise, do you like being told what to do? Why should any woman? Alpha males give their wives veto power (and alpha females rarely use it).
John,
I guess I live in the rarefied world where women are doctors, lawyers and business people who are married (happily), have children…but don’t desire to work full-time.
We all really value our husbands and see them as essential to the emotional well-being of our children. We all really like our husbands too.
glenn sacks says this:
“The current trend away from marriage and towards divorce and/or remaining single has more to do with overcritical women and their excessive expectations than it does with unsuitable men…
“Nobody would dispute that, in selecting a mate, women are more discerning than men. This is an evolutionary necessity–a woman must carefully evaluate who is likely to remain loyal to her and protect and provide for her and her children. If a man and a woman go on a blind date and don’t hit it off, the man will shrug and say ‘it went OK.’ The woman will give five reasons why he’s not right for her.
“A woman’s discerning, critical nature doesn’t disappear on her wedding day. Most marital problems and marriage counseling sessions revolve around why the wife is unhappy with her husband, even though they could just as easily be about why the husband is unhappy with the wife. In this common pre-divorce scenario there are only two possibilities-either she’s a great wife and he’s a lousy husband, or she’s far more critical of him than he is of her. Usually it’s the latter.
“Despite this week’s media homilies, it’s doubtful that many men or women are truly happy alone. Much of women’s cheerful ‘I don’t need a man/I love my cats’ reaction has a hollow ring to it, and sounds a lot more like whistling in the dark than a celebration.
“Yes, there are some men who make poor mates, but not nearly enough to account for the divorce epidemic and the decline of marriage. While it’s easy and popular to blame men, many of the wounds women bear from failed relationships and loneliness are self-inflicted.”
“I asked a question earlier, and nobody has bothered to give an explanation, so I will ask it again: Why is it that 70% OF ALL DIVORCES are instigated by the ones who are supposed to crave commitment?”
…The women I know who have done this are bat-$h! f****** crazy.
I try not to hang around these women, so I really don’t understand them. It might be infectious, you know?
I’m sorry. All I can say is that there are good women out there.
Mama73,
you wrote:
“Mark,
You sound like all the boys I did my best to avoid.
There is a difference between “taking charge” and “dominating”. Likewise, do you like being told what to do? Why should any woman? Alpha males give their wives veto power (and alpha females rarely use it).”
You don’t even know what you’re talking about. You can play a little shell game with terms desribing ‘being a man’ all day, but for we as men, it’s not some cutesy-cutesy little dear Abby world we live in, where every thing is based on ‘moods.’
For us, it is deadly serious- we can go to jail for NOTHING in the context of a marriage just on the word of a woman. If we get arrested for ‘domestic violence’ (which now can be anything at all, including a cold stare or the silent treatment) we can also lose our career, the right to see our children, and our home.
There is no parallel or nothing for you, as a woman, wherein you have to deal with the same nightmarish reality, that is why it’s all la-ti-da for you. So essentially you’re just laughing at us and the horror men have to face- so screw you. You are ‘just another brick in the wall.’ Go play on iVillage.
The comment above by Steve in Ohio bears repeating. It should be required reading for every man seeking a marriage license.
Question:
When was the last time you ever heard a woman say this?
“I’m the reason my marriage failed. My husband had no choice but to leave me because I was a nagging, self-centered bitch.”
Or
“I left my husband because my expectaions were impossible.”
Yet, at least half the time this is the reality, just more proof that women do not even really know what accountability even means.
Mark,
You are right, I made a cheap shot. Sorry, it wasn’t very kind.
But you seem really depressed and in need of a positive male role model.
Obviously I can’t provide it…Steve in Ohio, where are you?
P.S. Mark, to say that mens rights are just fun and games to me is a cheap shot too. I have a husband, stepfather, brother and son I love very much. Why would I not be very concerned for their rights and well being?
“But you seem really depressed and in need of a positive male role model.”
Like any tpical female, it’s breathtaking how you can be wrong so consistently about EVERY LAST LITTLE THING. Ironically, I’m not dpressed, and do you know why? Because I live alone and don’t have some idiot female in my life making my life miserable. Isn’t that really neat?
“I have a husband, stepfather, brother and son I love very much. Why would I not be very concerned for their rights and well being?”
It’s nauseatingly pathetic that you have a husband, stepfather, brother and son and don’t even know what is even going on.
Hey everybody- here’s some comic relief- these posters are REALLY, REALLY funny- about how psychotic and retarded women today are
go here
http://reality2007-endofcivilization.blogspot.com/
John wrote:
“Why is it that 70% OF ALL DIVORCES are instigated by the ones who are supposed to crave commitment?” Yes that is hard to explain. I really don’t mean to be insulting, but it is so off center I’m suspicious of it. Do you remember where the 70% came from? Statistics can be deceiving sometimes.
Jim: Really liked your post. Also speaks volumes for your character that you don’t “need” all the trappings of wealth that you could have. Best of luck to you. (Are you an engineer?)
Divorce laws are different from state to state. I know in my tri-state area the stories I hear are of assets split, retirement split and child support, but not much alimony (and temporary at that). In even the most fair divorce, everyone’s lifestyle will take a hit, even if both are working equivalent jobs, since two homes cost more than one, and the lawyer takes a cut (size usually dependent upon the nastiness of the divorce). If only one is working, having enough money for both to live on their own may be nearly impossible. This is just math. Unfortunate, but still just math.
Most of the horror stories I hear are from women. Maybe men tend to tell their own horror stories more to men. As long as judges are people, there will be unfairness and horror stories. But is it really as pervasive as these posts make it sound? Could it be that since on average everyone takes a hit in their lifestyle through a divorce, that most people feel wronged even if they aren’t?
I also wonder if there’s ever been a decent study done on the number of women beaten who say nothing out of fear of being killed, the number of women actually killed by their spouses, and the number of men who have to spend a night in jail to get before a judge due to a lying wife. And then, you’d have to compare the frequency of each to the magnitude of the hazard. For instance, how many nights in jail would be equal to one death. It just doesn’t strike me that either happens often enough, to basically decent people who don’t hit each other, to use as a reason to not get married. Not if you’re willing to risk you life on our highways.
I’m a 31 yr old man, never married, hope to get married and have children soon.
My female peers, though… I love them, some of them love or have loved me, but it is difficult to avoid the feeling that the current public culture has provided a very effective arsenal of rhetorical weapons that only serve the purpose of justifying bad behavior. It is argued that this is superior to the prior regime, which (allegedly, in some cases legally) only allowed such outlets to men. That is, of course, exactly the kind of stupidity that results from the idea of Equality Uber Alles: misery is generalized.
What is the actual lesson of Sex and the City? Women are f—ing unhappy outside the traditional arrangements. Whereas they were allegedly unhappy in specific, prescribed ways under the former inequitable marital regime, now they are free to be miserable in myriad, wholly new ways, and ruin lives with the available law – especially their children’s – in the process.
But of course so are men, I think, unhappy outside the traditional arrangements. And where women are prohibited from education and employment, it is only humane that the law protect them in the war of annihilation that divorce can so easily become.
Yet here we stand on the other side of the sexual revolution: birth control, abortion, tongue rings and tatoos, co-ed dorm bathrooms, female majorities in colleges, law schools, and med schools, the whole legally-mandated equity as applied through the 14th Amendment, among other legal devices.
Fine.
But still: the world’s beings are not equal.
If 70% of divorces are initiated by women, this has more to do with women than it does with men. The law does incentivize, and people respond to incentives I agree but… 70%?
Equally, the black out-of-wedlock birthrate is over 70%?
Are people not a little shocked out of their pieties by these statistics?
In my opinion, the 60s Revolution essentially won – but, like all Revolutions, not only was it mostly a sham, but it has gone on for too long, is incapable of recognizing its own victory, and is now devouring its young.
American society will correct itself, I think. But we are in the nasty twilight time, the old ideas are dead, except privately, and we can only attempt to live by the good, old NATURAL example, despite the risks, until the correction occurs.
The country will in general be much better off once the Baby Boomers are dead or drifted off onto senility. I’m sorry to conclude that but I think any honest observer could come to no other conclusion. Thanks a lot for breaking all our chicks (although the easy oral sex was nice, thanks!).
As the Despair.com calendar page says, “The only common factor in all your unsuccessful relationships is you.”
‘”Why is it that 70% OF ALL DIVORCES are instigated by the ones who are supposed to crave commitment?” Yes that is hard to explain. I really don’t mean to be insulting, but it is so off center I’m suspicious of it. Do you remember where the 70% came from? Statistics can be deceiving sometimes.”‘
This is the exact number quoted to me by my law professors in family law and torts, as well as in at least 3 different legal textbooks.
Of course, they could all be wrong, but frankly I don’t have the time to go out and interview all the country’s court clerks, so I guess I for one will just have to take it at face value.
“Yes that is hard to explain.”
Is it? The longer I live and the more I observe the more I am convinced that generally women are more egocentric than men. Since Darwinian explanations are all the rage, I’d offer the proposition that this redounds to the benefit of women – more concerned with their more troublesome anatomy and personal health, more need to select mates carefully – and to children, whom women generally see as “a part of them,” so that the children are cared for as a woman woudl care for herself, or more. So they are given a surfeit of egotism, which they will apply to their children, perhaps. I don’t know. But I suspect that on the bell curve of egotism the women would be surprisingly well-represented on the right. Of course mem are not immune. I’m just speaking in generalities here. (70%)
sofasleeper said,
“5. Don’t get married if you are anywhere close to the autistic spectrum.”
After my last couple relationships I would have to agree, or at least say your statement should be given serious consideration.
“The longer I live and the more I observe the more I am convinced that generally women are more egocentric than men.”
Hmmm. Well, naturally I’m not going to go along with that, but maybe the female ego is more often tied more to her looks, the man and her children, and a man’s is less so and more tied to other things like job, physical strength, sports, sex, intellect — winning competitions of some kind. Darwin would approve. The woman must get the best man to ensure her and her childrens’ survival, and the man must bring down the most mastodons to ensure that of himself, wife and kids.
And I think part of the competitive nature of the male is in the area of having a good looking wife. Not the only area, but it is an area. These women in the 70% wouldn’t trade up if there wasn’t someone willing to take them. Where do all of these single men come from? (And, are they all single?)
And also, if men didn’t pick the prettiest ones, who are in large part pretty because they care to take the time on hair, make-up, clothes, diet, boob jobs, etc. Then, in time, women would be less obsessed with that role and find another. (I know not all women fit this role, but it disheartening to see how many girls, born into all of the choices available, still rate themselves on how alpha their boyfriend is.)
Pick your spouse wisely, if you decide to marry. I see that said a lot up above. Makes darned good sense.
I say this again (and again). If marriage is what you have decided upon, take a week of vacation. Spend it in the last row of your local divorce court. See for yourself how marriages end, and what happens. Take it all in. Watch the judges, the lawyers, the wives, the husbands, the in laws. I promise you will come away shaking your head.
However, if you still are not sure, the one way bus ticket to Seattle and case of beer (offered to east coasters) is still available. It is a four day bus ride. Plenty of time to think it over undisturbed. But if you STILL want to go through with it, you must pay for your own return ticket.
“As the Despair.com calendar page says, “The only common factor in all your unsuccessful relationships is you.”
That’s all cute and clever, but the ‘Man In The Mirror’ decade was the 1980′s. You’re confusing personal responsibilty and failure in relationships that truly are a man’s own fault and the subject of this article which is about divorce law and a toxic culture of women who are anti-male and anti-family.
Yes, it is true you have to work at making a relationship work and accept responsibility for your own failings, but the state of marriage for men today is that now matter what you do- you could be the greatest father/husband/provider and you’re probably even MORE likely to get screwed!! Women will just look at you as a bigger sucker.
It’s like running a marathon while there’s people in the bleachers shooting at you with rifles!!!
Never, ever get married without a pre-nup. I know it sounds harsh and unfair, especially when you’re supposed to be entering marriage for life and all.
But look at it this way; if she isn’t ok with it, then you’re finding something out that is very important, right? Remember, current law will take away the lion’s share of everything you ever did and will do.
All of the commentors appear to fall into two categories. Those burned by belief in monogamy and the marriage contract and those in succesful marriages. While I enjoy reading about the succesful marriages and respect the commentors’ passion, I find it kind of erie that in ten to twenty years most of them will be in the first category. I myself was in the second category after 5, 10, and 15 years and now after 20 am firmly in the first category. There just seems to be little one can do to stave off the effects of monotomy, mid-life crisis, and humankinds tendancy for selfishness and compulsion. I am not a pessimist. I loved my marriage and would not trade a day of it for anything. If I had any advice for those who believe in “till death do us part” it would be a strong faith in God and an inner circle of friends and aquaintences with the same belief. (for full disclodure my ex and I started with that and ended secular). Faith does not guarantee a succesful marriage, but lack of it almost always leads to eventual seperation.
My ex left for another man, but we have remained civil throughout, have kept the kids interests paramount and are very good friends and co-parents today. She could have taken me to the cleaners and possibly ruined me completely but did not and I have to give her credit for that. Although had I done anything wrong other than being “boring” such as addiction, abuse, adultury, I’m pretty sure she would have done everything to take me down.
I do not believe in marriage for myself (44 years old with 16/17 year old children). I have been able to find intimacy, physical pleasure and great friendships with women without any commitment. It’s not easy and takes some brutal honesty and letting people down, but it’s working as well or better than my committed life. It is true that marriage on the whole makes people happier – especially men (many empirical studies show this) but I believe it is largely because our society feeds the idea that happiness comes from monogomous relationships. In reality their are religious monks, priests, etc who have taken vows of abstinence or seclusion who have levels of happiness (measurable brainwave patterns and physical responses) much higher than normal. And inner happiness while more difficult to attain is much more reliable and durable. I do not know what advice I would give to my children. Probably just this – be true to God, live by the Golden Rule and understand that your relationship with your children IS forever, IS precious, and should never be soiled by difficulties between mom and dad.
The Anti-Christ is definitely going to be female.
“Never, ever get married without a pre-nup. I know it sounds harsh and unfair, especially when you’re supposed to be entering marriage for life and all”
Let me bring you up to speed, Jim. Women have been fighting pre-nups in court and winning for many years now. Attorneys have found all kinds of loopholes to get around pre-nups, the most popular one is the ‘not in a proper state of mind when she signed it’ loophole. A lot of guys don’t know that pre-nups are and have been worthless for a long time. Sorry to break the news to you!
There is no hope for marriage in it’s current state. The laws have to radically change.
Jenny is a perfect example of the reason I won’t marry. Typical Foul Mouthed American Woman with a chip on her shoulder.
Men, I have no idea why you even listen to the female viewpoint on this issue. Women aren’t capable of understanding anything from man’s perspective. I mean it. They simply aren’t capable of walking in our shoes. They will shame us until we’re blue in the face about choosing the right person for marriage. Pre-nups aren’t a solution because they are often thrown out because they were signed under “distress”.
How many times do we have to hear some typical American Grrrrl‚Ñ¢ barge in and say “not all women are like that” & “there are good women out there”? That isn’t the issue! THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN AND AMERICAN WOMEN HAVE NEVER & WILL NEVER DO ANYTHING TO FIX IT. They benefit too much from it. There shouldn’t even be a system. Get the government out!
American Women: Reform or eliminate the sham family court system, RENOUNCE FEMINISM, renounce the spreading & legalizing of misandry in every aspect of our culture, and maybe, just maybe men will once again consider marriage.
My opinion is that it’s too late for you to do anything. The traditional family has been destroyed. Exactly what feminists wanted. Destroy the family; destroy the country.
Many will never forget what American Women have done to American Men & the Traditional Family in this country. We will never forgive you. We’re opting out. Going our own way. We’re tired of the government & American Women mistreating & disrespecting us. Without men, you’re nothing. My college friends have had enough of American Women and their narcissistic personality disorders.
Change the laws. Change the system. End the double standards against men.
Get busy. You have a lot of work to do & the feminists are a nasty, mentally ill bunch to deal with.
Good Luck.
Hmm. In reading through this thread, I notice a trend, and that is people who are not surrounded by successful marriages.
I’m not just talking about long-term marriages, I’m talking about happy long term marriages.
I’ve been married for six years, and expect to be married for the rest of our lives… which isn’t surprising, considering my parents have been married for 40+ years, and his parents were married for 40+ years before his father died, and my siblings have all been married for the long term (and apparently, the fact that my parents are happily married is a huge draw for children of divorce.)
My friends are all in happy marriages, and nobody seems to be speaking of divorce, or of the stresses that you usually see before divorce.
What is my advice, then? Men, if you want to get married, look at the girl’s family and community. If it’s full of long-term, happy marriages, then that’s what she’s had as role models. She’s a good prospect.
And it’s even better if her community and church offer such things as marriage counseling, and voluntary married retreats, because then she has probably been exposed to the fact that good marriages need work. After all, I grew up with the idea that marriage is a promise and a task, and chose my husband accordingly. He’s the sort of friend I’d always want to be with, and someone who is going to support me as I support him.
Incorrect. Also, the women chosen, if the man is a USA citizen, will have been from women who live within the USA.
Therefore, once one samples a few of the dearie AW one needs to go to FW and look at women in other lands.
i’ll second the comment from the gent who equated marriage to gambling. only i’d characterize as it as much worse: marriage nowadays is just like **casino** gambling. if you get fabulously lucky and hit the jackpot, well, that’s just awesome. fish are jumpin’; life is sweet; etc etc.
the problem is that – just like casinos – for every jackpot winner out there, there are many MANY losers. and now – just like casinos do – now the legal system is ratcheting the costs of failed marriage & your odds of success up to stratospheric heights, to make more money for their clients. (who ain’t the men, btw)
living in vegas, sooner or later, most everyone learns a hard truth: stay away from the casinos, because *in the long run, you can’t win*. a casino won’t offer you a “game” that’s not fixed massively in their favor. who’d sign up to get ripped off? knowing your chances of ‘winning’ are less than 1%? knowing the real stakes of the game are “heads you get amazingly lucky and break even, tails you get wiped out.” that sound like a good deal? (as for the folks who *don’t learn* the lesson, nothing awaits them but misery, a destroyed life and utter financial ruination. rather like modern divorce, no?)
same with modern american marriage. nice work there, ladies. we’ll see how that works out for you down the line. what possible backlash might there be, do ya think?
Now that we have institutionalized the concept of domestic partnership, there is no reason for any man to ever get married. You can share a domicile, share health and retirement benefits, raise children, stay together forever and live happily ever after. If a woman does not love and trust you enough to do these things without the benefit of marriage, she is not a woman you want to marry.
As a man, the legal risks of divorce are all yours. You have nothing to gain by marriage at all.
After 20 or 30 years of successful domestic partnership, I suppose it would be OK to marry but be sure to get a pre-nup that protects you both.
All of my college friends married, some three or four times. They are all broken men, regardless of the level of success they have achieved in other areas of endeavor in their lives, regardless of whether or not they ever got divorced at all.
I have been with the same woman for thirty years, the only bond being friendship and respect. We never had to work very hard. We do what we like. We go where we want. We are totally financially self sufficient at this point, whether we work or not.
Our parents were never happy about our relationship, so what. We never had kids, so maybe we are a case of arrested development, so what. I’m 56 years old and happier than I’ve ever been.
Marriage is a joke and it’s a joke that is played on you.
CK: “Jenny is a perfect example of the reason I won’t marry.” Some woman, some place, owes me big time.
From John Ross of “Ross in Range”
Would You Go on a Cruise Ship that Didn’t Have Lifeboats
on a Cruise Line Where 60% of the Cruise Ships Sink?
“I returned home from a 3-day visit with my best friend from college, and for every room except my study, it was like moving into a new apartment. Not a single fork, plate, roll of toilet paper, curtain, drape, salt shaker, napkin, bar of soap, nothing. … When I’d tell people what had happened to me, their eyes would get big and they’d invariably tell me of two or three other friends they knew whose wives had done exactly the same thing.”
Read the whole thing. It’s not as optimistic as it sounds.
Recommended reading:
The Garbage Generation by Daniel Amneus
While his proposed solution may or may not be the right one, his description of the pathology of the subject is spot on.
I am a 28y/o man. I am a virgin (seriously, by choice.) And I want to be a father. When I am being honest with myself, I realize that I prolly won’t get to be one. I think on the matter a lot because being a father means a lot to me, but I see hope slipping by faster then the years.
So, now that I have given my background, I’ll say what I have to say. First, to those who say that equating marriage to money is the cause of bad marriages, marriage, is an economic institution. If it was just about love, there would be no need for marriage; people would be happy being with one another, and would love the other person enough to let them go freely in the event that love stopped being mutual. Marriage is about combining resources. Originally, marriage was solely for the purpose of children, and the laws regarding what the marriage contract entailed, reflected as much. A man could divorce a woman in case of infertility or infidelity (the infidelity on a woman’s part meant that any children she had may not have been his.) A woman could not divorce the man because that would represent a breach of contract that she could not repay. So, by this convention society was able to convince men to apply their earning powers to the creation and development of the next generation, and give women a support system by which they could afford to have and raise children. Obviously, the system was not perfect, but, honestly, humanity is still growing up, and as history marches on people really do, by-n-large move towards freedom. The advantages that the system gained the societies that followed it were sufficient that societies that didn’t fell by the wayside.
As society started growing in wealth the need to make children stopped being all consuming and marriages for other reasons began to be more prevalent. But, society is slow to change its institutions and the rules by which they operate. What I feel that what we are seeing today is the disconnect between that fact that we can now leave the meaning of the marriage contract to those individuals who choose to engage in them, and societies willingness to let those individuals have enjoy the right of self determination. So, we find other people defining for us the meaning of marriage, and hence the injustices of that come from such. What is particular damning about marriage right now is that the contract isn’t static. The rules, by which I marry today, are not the rules by which I will live be tomorrow.
Second, my own personal experiences. There are two major hindrances to me becoming a father. The first is the legal system. It basically means that if I roll the dice and lose, I am going to lose big. Sadly, I don’t see the rewards being greater then the risks. The today’s inequities in the marriage laws have been beat over the head fairly well here, so I won’t beat a dead horse.
But, the second factor in the problem is women themselves. They have turned out be a pretty big disappointment. Self obsessed. Shallow. Lacking honor. Irresponsible. And dare I say it, Sluts. I have heard them referred to as the Young Independent Women and they take their cues from “Sex and the City”. Live your life now while you are young, don’t worry about tomorrow. They would rather blow their money on the latest hand bag. They date serially or just ‘hook up’. When you ask them about what they intend to do about retirement they will often get pissed off. They expect the government to solve any problems they have. Basically, they are women who I don’t even want to trust with my penis let alone my children. Having lived overseas for a number of years, I don’t see that as being much of an option either. Japanese women are WAY to submissive to be interesting. Philippina’s demand I pay for their family. The Muslims want me to convert (I am an agnostic.)
*Shrugs* I guess I was unlucky enough to be born in the wrong era. Boohoo. In the end we all must play with the cards dealt and I have decided to stay optimistic while preparing for the possibility of not. Personally, I am considering surrogacy and single parenthood.
wow. Reading these posts has been extremely informative. And very emotional. I empathize with those men who have been taken advantage of. And I’ve known many good men who’ve been victimized.
Regarding John’s question as to why 70% of divorces are initiated by women; I’ve wondered this myself, and I think one reason is that men are too chivalrous to dump their women, even when the marriage is bad. They will withdraw and refuse to participate, but they will not file. My theory is that they are simply being gentlemen, and allow their wife to dump them so she can save face emotionally and socially. In some cases anyway.
Plus there’s the additional consideration of moving out, alone, setting up a new household and still having to contribute money to the original family unit. The thought of loneliness has to be a considerable factor. To be lonely and broke is hard to face. If women were facing these options when filing for divorce, I imagine many would reconsider.
I often joke about getting the kids and a blender in my divorce. I’ve needed access to the female only help system MANY times and of course there is no possibility of ever getting access to it.
The BIGGEST anger making thing for me is women’s refusal to listen to the above paragraph. It is almost always turned around to women have it worse: NO! Women may or may not have it worse, on average. That, whether true or false, has NOTHING at all to do with the extreme unfairness and bad behavior shown ME! NOTHING!
The legal system is so badly skewed toward women that it is creating rage among men. Worse, far worse, is the refusal to LISTEN to the men’s stories and feelings and thoughts an….
TAF wrote, “Recommended reading: The Garbage Generation by Daniel Amneus”
The Amazon reviews are excellent, and worth reading in their own right.
http://www.amazon.com/review/product/0961086459/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful/103-1414906-0057445?%5Fencoding=UTF8&coliid=&showViewpoints=1&colid=&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending
The text of the book is available online.
http://fisheaters.com/gb1.html
Marriage, Divorce Rates:
From this page you can see there are still a lot of men willing to marry:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_mar_rat-people-marriage-rate
This one shows a lot of those marriages end in divorce:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_div_rat-people-divorce-rate
That puts the divorces per 100 marriages at 50.5. Not the worst on the planet:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_div_per_100_mar-people-divorces-per-100-marriages
(The U.S. is missing for some reason, but would be #4)
Note that the countries with the highest number of divorces/100 marriages is in places where a woman can get a divorce. They are also typically in places with a higher standard of living, lacking institutionalized wife-servant class.
O.K. so there are a lot of men out there still willing to get married.
Wife as Servant:
Servants are a luxury item. The less a servant does, the more of a luxury he or she is. The more the servant charges, the more of luxury he or she is.
So, if you have a wife and keep her as a servant, and you’re not rich enough to afford one, that was a mistake. This is even if you treat her nice — I’m talking economics here, not relationships.
Take a look at countries where this is the norm. Their standard of living is (on average) very poor. Half of their population can’t contribute to the economy or the cutting edge of any field. Further, I bet divorced men in the U.S. are in much better shape financially than those men who live in these third world countries.
If you’re not wealthy enough to afford a servant, marry a partner. If you are, get a pre-nup, and good for you. Wish I could afford one.
And, also, children are expensive. If you get a woman pregnant, and aren’t married, you will still have to pay child support, and will have even less rights than the divorced man.
Now take a look at the birth rates:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_bir_rat-people-birth-rate
For the countries with a decent standard of living, the U.S. (#151) does fine.
Marriage, child births, etc. are not in trouble in the U.S. Even if some people do opt out, plenty don’t.
Jenny said, “Marriage, child births, etc. are not in trouble in the U.S”
Thanks for the laugh Jenny! You are delusional!
While I’m sure most guys are smart enough not to make important life decisions based on anecdotal evidence found in a web comment thread, just in honor of reality itself I’m posting some links to actual data about marriage and divorce.
Here’s a good summary of the existing data on the ENORMOUS benefits to both men and women of being married. Generally, married men live longer, have higher salaries, are less susceptible to mental illness, depression, and suicide, report a higher level of happiness, and are more sexually active than unmarried men. And the differentials here are not small, for example:
“Married people live longer and healthier lives. The power of marriage is particularly evident in late middle age. When Linda Waite and a colleague, for example, analyzed mortality differentials in a very large, nationally representative sample, they found an astonishingly large “marriage gap” in longevity: nine out of ten married guys who are alive at 48 will make it to age 65, compared with just six in ten comparable single guys (controlling for race, education, and income). For women, the protective benefits of marriage are also powerful, though not quite as large. Nine out of ten wives alive at age 48 will live to be senior citizens, compared with just eight out of ten divorced and single women.
In fact, according to statisticians Bernard Cohen and I-Sing Lee, who compiled a catalog of relative mortality risks, “being unmarried is one of the greatest risks that people voluntarily subject themselves to.” Having heart disease, for example, reduces a man’s life expectancy by just under six years, while being unmarried chops almost ten years off a man’s life. This is not just a selection effect: even controlling for initial health status, sick people who are married live longer than their unmarried counterparts. Having a spouse, for example, lowers a cancer patient’s risk of dying from the disease as much as being in an age category ten years younger. A recent study of outcomes for surgical patients found that just being married lowered a patient’s risk of dying in the hospital. For perhaps more obvious reasons, the risk a hospital patient will be discharged to a nursing home was two and a half times greater if the patient was unmarried. Scientists who have studied immune functioning in the laboratory find that happily married couples have better-functioning immune systems. Divorced people, even years after the divorce, show much lower levels of immune function.”
Read the whole thing, as they say. I personally found most of the data here quite surprising.
Of course these benefits only accrue to those who stay married. While the depressing national average divorce statistic is bandied about a lot, it is NOT the case that every married couple faces a 54% chance of getting divorced. The odds of divorce are much higher for some people than for others depending on certain characteristics. You can read an interesting series of blog posts from a pair of sociologists on how things like income, education level, age at marriage, religious affiliation and so forth affect divorce rates (quite dramatically in some instances) here. (This is the last post in the series, I’m linking to it because it seems to be the only page that has links to all of the related posts, in the sidebar).
Why don’t women do anything about divorce laws that treat men unfairly? Maybe because we still have our own problems. Individual outcomes vary, but on average, women post-divorce suffer a 30% decline in standard of living, while men post-divorce suffer only a 10% decline. (Source.) This may be because of the lower earning power of women (particularly for women responsible for child care) in general rather than how marital property was divided, but it may explain why women just don’t see men as being as badly off financially after divorce as they themsleves are.
I see my embedded link to the series of blog posts on the odds of divorce doesn’t work: here’s the full link. Cut and paste if it still doesn’t work, I guess.
http://www.pobronson.com/blog/2006/07/will-this-marriage-last-how-to-improve.html
Bottom line.. marriage and family in the U.S. ARE DEAD, and women killed it. R.I.P. The sooner you accept it the better it will be for all of you.
LOL SR!
Modern Marriage is beneficial for men the same way the slaughterhouse is beneficial for sheep!
What’s next? Are you going to tell me Feminism And Romance Go Hand In Hand?
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071015102856.htm
Yikes!
The propaganda is thick, men!
I recently had a friend inform me that I should get on Match.com because my ex has a profile listed on there. I noticed a lot of single mothers that discussed how they were divorced and how they have custody of the baby/kid and them listed all of the normal expectations of a man they are looking for on those sites. I was actually emailed by a woman who was 30 and explained her divorce, etc.
Then I found my ex’s profile. Imagine marrying someone, having a child with her (my own flesh and blood), then having her file for divorce for something stupid. The family court would demand that you pay $800/mo child support for 18-21 yrs (plus all the trimmings…legal fees, half of pension, 401K, alimony, etc. etc. This is extremely painful and humiliating per se and my new reality.
Then, I see like 8 pics of my ex holding my own flesh and blood marketing herself to every man in the area. Talking about how the divorce is over and she has custody and she’s ready to find her new man to live with, care for, love, etc. etc.
My feelings are ineffable. I can’t describe this feeling I have. Before you marry, please spend some time looking at the shameless single mothers of Match.com. Maybe you can avoid the humiliation of losing everything and then being approached anytime/anywhere by anyone from your past and having them say, “Hey, I saw your ex and kid on this web-site, looks like she is looking for a replacement, ha ha ha!”
http://tinyurl.com/yvpprs
OK, guys. I’ve been happily married for over twelve years and now we have a 10-month-old. Between the time we said “I DO” until now, we have seen the best and the worst marriage could offer, at least from the experiences of those around us.
Nobody said to us it was going to be easy to stay together. Yet, we were told, and I repeat, “Compared to marriage, divorce IS expensive.” For that reason, we both had to be absolutely sure before taking that jump, and never look back.
I want to tell the guys who have been through it: I feel for all of you. I wish you never, ever had to go through it. To have your life and your children ripped out of you is like having both arms and legs amputated.
In fact, my poor brother is a member of your club. He doesn’t make that much money as a police officer (Whoever said to go into the NYPD to make money flat-out lied), but he got literally taken to the cleaners during his divorce. He didn’t own a lot of assets: his now ex-wife had COMPLETE control of the purse strings, until he decided to take a little bit of control out of her, at the advice of his cop friends. What happened next was a can of worms: any money he saved on the joint accounts was locked away from him. Everything he saved – gone! And you wouldn’t guess it from the story, but she makes A LOT more money than he does! Now, he lives in a co-op apartment that he was able to buy, with my mother’s help. (!) He has been so shaken by the experience, that he has vowed never to marry again. And I don’t blame him.
And my poor niece is paying the price.
One more thing: I’m still in speaking terms with his ex-wife. I visited her last April and found out, during one of our conversations, that the house she so comfortable lives in – in an upper-mid class section of Nassau Co, no less – is soaking her out of so much money in property taxes, plus her home insurance co. won’t renew her wind/storm/hail coverage because it is within the danger zone. She may have to move out of there and find a cheaper place to live.
There’s one word that applies here: karma.
I’m a 28 year old unmarried male. I would like to get married and have children one day, though I’m not sure that will ever happen (largely because I’m not particularly sociable, and don’t think I’ll ever find a girl I want to settle down with) I mostly agree that the current system is broken and biased against men.
BUT.. On the “70% of divorces being filed by women” statistic… I DO have an explanation for that. Several family friends (mostly my sister’s girlfriends) have been divorced. And in all of them the husband took off with another woman (All three of them also already had children.. How you can just abandon your spouse and kids is beyond me… Not in the manner these so called “Men” did.) In any case, the men abandoned their spouses.. but it was the WOMEN who ended up filing for the divorce. I’d say this might go some way towards explaining the 70% figure. Sometimes the man leaves..And leaves the woman to file the official paperwork.
I can only speak from personal experience. Draw your own conclusions. I have been divorced for 3 years from my high school sweetheart for 18 years. My x wife only worked part time when she needed extra cash for her and I was always the provider for our family. We have 3 children together. My x wife used to complain that I was traveling and did not spend enough time at home with our family as my job requires me to travel at times for a couple of weeks at a time. I left my job and took a serious pay cut in order to stay home and be with my family more often. A few months after my job change my x wife came to me and told me that she did not feel the same love for me as before and felt love for me like a sister would. She felt we needed a break from one another. I was hurt but gave her space and moved into a separate bedroom. My close friends warned me that they found her behavior strange for a woman in her early 40s with 3 kids. I did not listen to them and told them that she worked part time at a church and would never think of her cheating on me. A few weeks later I returned home from work early to find her in bed with the church handyman. The result was a one sided divorce that resulted in my providing for her, her new live in boyfriend and loosing my family. I thought about suicide many times and would never contemplate marriage again. I work multiple jobs to pay for the mistake that I committed the day I took my vows. My children are being used as pawns as she won’t even use the child support to provide for their needs. If my oldest son comes to me and asks me if I think he should get married. I will tell him the truth that the only good that came from my marriage was them and that the rest has been pain. Good luck and I hope you don’t find yourself in my situation. I feel sad that if I ever find a good women the only thing I can offer her is a broken man.
This happened to my best friend: His wife asked for divorce. They went to counseling. He found photographic evidence that she was having an affair. She then falsely accused him of child molestation and coached their four year old in an accusation. He signed over durable power of attorney to her and gave her all his assets (.25 mil$) to provide for the children and fled abroad. Finally, he found that the DA had found insufficient (no) evidence. However, two years later his visa and Driver’s License was revoked for lack of support. He’s returned and has convinced her to sign a final agreement and waive future payments. She lives with her boyfriend. He’ll never be able to see his children. As in Quinn’s case she used the respectability of church-going to cloak her plan. She was a lot smarter than I gave her credit for, in an animal-cunning sort of way.
I’ve heard of two other cases almost exactly like this that happened to friends relatives. Unless you’d stake your life on your wife-to-be’s character for the decades to come; don’t marry.
That said, I’ve been married for nearly ten years and likely to remain so. There were long stretches where it wasn’t a happy relationship; with work and perseverence it became so.
One more story. A friend of mine is very wealthy (100 mil$+). He’s been taken to the cleaners twice by gold-diggers. The second marriage lasted less than three months; she had what she wanted: The legal means to get some money out of him. He won’t marry again.
To anyone where your partner-to-be is not deeply religious and commitment-minded to the point where they’ll suffer rather than divorce: Don’t get married. It takes a level of commitment such that if you or your spouse falls ill six months into marriage, (too ill for sex and full companionship), you or the other would still be willing to be faithful for the rest of your lives. If there’s not that level of commitment; don’t marry. It is very unlikely to work.
The typical American feminist has ZERO concept of sacrificial love; and that’s what it takes for a relationship to last a lifetime. For them it lasts until conditions change. Men can be trapped by love into an ancient covenant that makes no sense outside of life-long, life-giving commitment. The word “marriage” means something so very much smaller in the current culture than it did in the past: Don’t do it.
To Jenny: Birthrate in the US is maintained because of immigration from Latin American countries. Without that, we’d be as bad off as Europe. Analogously, the only European countries near replacement rate have high Muslim populations.
Sorta OT but how does a guy’s savings/assets from before “I do” get distributed to the ex wife? I was under the impression that any asset brought into the marriage and not co-mingled with marital assets won’t get touched.
Reddish wrote, “How does a guy’s savings/assets from before ‘I do’ get distributed to the ex wife?”
Short answer: The judge says so.
The settlement may not explicitly include non-co-mingled assets. It may just be so high that those assets get included.
The husband may even volunteer those assets to avoid worse consequences.
Read this link for general advice on emotional and fiscal preparation for a divorce from John Ross.
http://web.archive.org/web/20070705031305/http://www.john-ross.net/marriage_ii.htm
If that link doesn’t work, try clicking on my name on this comment.
As a moderately successful businessman, friends often ask me if they should quit their jobs and start their own businesses. My answer to the question when phrased that way is always “No”, because it’s a sign that their focus is wrong. If you’re asking about starting your own business before you’ve got a business idea and plan in which you have the right combination of confidence and passion to devote your life to it, then you’re by definition not ready.
Marriage is, I think, much the same. “Should I get married” ought to be answered with “no”, whereas “should I marry person X” is another matter.
If, with respect to a specific would-be spouse you’re already in a relationship with, you can imagine any set of circumstances which would lead either one of you to file for divorce, then you should consider this concern an absolute bar to marriage, and not get married until it’s been dispensed with.
And although the cost of divorce is higher for men than for women, the same rule applies equally for both.
If you’re not BOTH committed to be in it for life, come what may, then at least one of you lacks the emotional maturity to handle marriage. And if you’re not sure whether the other party is as committed as you are, then you don’t know them well enough to marry them.
Marriage used to work in spite of the frequent lack of considerations like this because divorce was way harder than it is now, and unilateral divorce was harder still. But society changed the rules, cut away the safety net, and now we must rely far more on ourselves and our ability to discern the necessary qualities in a partner.
Here’s a great, readable site that covers these issues, and others, The Equal Justice Foundation.
http://www.ejfi.org/
It’s an eye-opening site. Marriage is discussed specifically in both the “Marriage and Family” and the “Civilization” section.
There’s a remarkable comment on Maggie’s Farm under “The Problem With Women”
http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/archives/6686-The-problem-with-women.html
Here’s just a part of it,
“But not a single one of our own children wants to get married (a couple of them do want to have to have kids). This despite the fact that all the rising generation of cousins are devout Christians, tenderly reared by parents who put them first, tho continuing with WASP family traditions of demanding a lot academically, not spoiling, etc.
I think the difference is that every single marriage (this holds for all my cousins, too, not simply my siblings and I) has been miserably unhappy.“
Dr. Helen has her own site. Here’s the post corresponding to this article.
http://drhelen.blogspot.com/2007/10/should-men-get-married.html
Neo-Neocon is unimpressed.
http://neoneocon.com/2007/11/01/getting-married-whats-in-it-for-me-part-i/
http://neoneocon.com/2007/11/02/getting-married-whats-in-it-for-me-part-ii/
Dr. Helen responds.
http://drhelen.blogspot.com/2007/11/neo-neocon-has-some-thoughts-on-my-pjm.html
Heather commented, “The raw anger here does make me uncomfortable. I was going to write about how to solve some of these problems then I started to read Neo-Neocon and I got a little angry.”
Ditto.
Heather continued, “I’ve seen too many divorces lately and I’ve yet to see one where the guy does not get the short end of the stick. Yes, even when he does get the kids.”
JW wrote, “As for NeoNeocon…. I do not believe that she sees the problems. She’s blind to some very real and crucial problems we have in our first world culture.”
Indeed.
To the person who says divorce is not an option I suggest that person visit http://christiandivorce.1hwy.com/index.html
The author’s email is on site. This is an online study regarding the teaching of Jesus and Paul on divorce rights. Divorce rights have always been available to the Christian.
2. I question the things that are now being said about men and divorce. Anyone can write anything. To suggest that men do not have due process in divorce proceedings is to provide disinformation.
To suggest that one person in a marriage (when there are children) can hold the spouse (mutual consent divorce when there are children) who wants the divorce hostage to his/her demands is to deny due process to the spouse who wants divorce. We stopped slavery in the U.S. in 1865… every individual has due process rights and one person cannot legally blackmail another person.
When the legal system allows a misuse of the system, it would be foolish to allow a process that woudl destroy marriage, itself.
Right here: Woman, 46, never married, no kids, no pets, quite happy about that. Wonderful b/f who survived not just a divorce… it was a plan to nothing short of destroy him. He will never, never ever get married again, and I don’t blame him!
I do not need a piece of paper from the government to tell me my relationship is valid and valuable!
(Uncle Sam already has his nose in too much of my business, imho)
Hang in there guys, and for crying out loud, don’t just post, write your representatives at all levels of government!! Hopefully this will turn around.
PLEASE Buy a copy of Dr Stephen Baskerville’s book “Take Into Custody”, buy one for every man you know who is thinking about marriage!!
Cool chick out!
I have a perfect solution for men, and really the only one in which they can take back their reproductive rights:
Freeze their sperm and have a vasectomy.
In this crazy world we live in, a woman can cheat on her husband, have her lover’s child, and the husband can and most likely will be forced to pay child support to her (or her lover!) until the child emancipates!
The solution is to plan your marriage, not just your wedding. Have the difficult dicussions prior to getting married. Ensure that you have similar financial beliefs and long term goals. While Religion plays a big part in a lot of people’s lives, often they stop the discussion there and forget that we are not just our Religion! Couples also have personality quirks that must be compatible.
So while it is important for society to recognize that we have enslaved men as a gender, men only have one option left. If women have to ask permission in order to reproduce, not only will paternity fraud decrease to nearly nil, but those on the hook by default will have a Constitutional right to get off the hook. The only excuse prior to the drafting of the constitution for a husband to not be named the father was if he was out of the country, sterile, or impotent. This exception to the presumption of paternity was forever preserved in the Constitution by clearly stating that any law passed contrary to the Constitution or the Common Law was void.
Aside from the obvious Constitutional violations of Equal Protection when it comes to a woman’s right to decide whether or not to become a parent (both during pregnancy and after), the only way to make a big enough statement for the powers that be to take the issue seriously is for men to take their futures into their own hands.
About Adryenn Ashley
Certified Divorce Financial Analyst and Certified Asset Protection Specialist, Adryenn Ashley is the author of Every Single Girl’s Guide to Her Future Husband’s Last Divorce, which will be released in January. Her financial wellness boot camp for women and couples launches nationwide later this year.
I’m 60 pages into Stephen Baskerville’s book “Take Into Custody” and all I can say is WOW!
I had no idea the family court system was this bad.
Guys, marrying the right person has nothing to do with it until the family court system is reformed or eliminated.
Once the family court system is changed, then you can proceed to the next step of choosing a spouse.
Until that happens, you’d be a fool to marry!
Read this book! Shocking what is going on in the family court (legalized thievery) system.
“the act of taking something from someone unlawfully”
Just like trade unions, the institution of marriage is one that has been bastardized beyond repair. And the “feminist” movement and the “family” (haha) court system are to blame.
Can anyone here name ONE benefit a man gets out of a “legally-binding” marriage that he wouldn’t get out of a committed cohabitation “agreement”?
(And don’t say LOVE – because if you need the government or your church to validate your commitment, then how strong was it in the first place?)
Look at it this way – would you gamble EVERYTHING you have, including your children – on a bet that has proven to be a loser more than 1/2 the time? And you thought Vegas was a racket…
I am single, never married (and never will be) and I have a daughter from an ill-conceived relationship… and she’s the best thing that ever happened to me… I was just lucky enough to have a judge who realized that I would be a good father, and that I had rights too. I also helped raise three step-sons from a previous relationship… and I have advised ALL three that marriage is a losing proposition…
There’s nothing in it for men… and in the immortal words of WOPR (from the movie War Games)… A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?
I have a tale to tell, and a question for the women posters here.
I’m still a married man – sort of – with three adult children. I fell in love with a wonderful girl at a church I visited. I proposed, my widowed mother was pleased, and then she talked about the family money. She would put good money into the marriage but everything would be in my mother’s name, not mine.
Of course I asked why, and she said to trust her on this; you must NEVER let a wife get at the family money or the marriage will probably fail. I found a couple of aunts had made the same arrangement with my cousins so I accepted it myself, and was happily married for many years.
When my mother died I inherited, and I felt I could trust the wife I loved – I put the cash in our joint account and discussed various investment plans with her.
Yep, you guessed, the money vanished from the account and she threatened to call the police and have me thrown out if I protested. And, she could stop me seeing the children whenever she wanted, so I’d better not upset her about the slightest thing even once.
She became a tyrant to the children too with her constant nagging, coldness and insults. She soured their outlook on life permanently. The house is cold and filthy, and gets no visitors that I know of. She dresses and acts like some grasping old miser out of a fairy-tale. I avoid visiting “home” now.
Question for the women posters here: How is it that men’s mothers seem to have known EXACTLY how to produce a happy home for generations, but women in general never mention that?
Your wife always was what she was, it’s just now she feels free to show it. You have my condolences. On the other hand, I inherited about a decade ago and shared freely with my husband. That worked out well for us, but I could tell you stories of various neighbor women who married, inherited, and lost it all to a husband who squandered it, or became instantly deadbeat. They are still married though, so I guess they were good little wives according to many who post here.
There may be many different traits between men and women, but greed to the point of mental illness happens to both genders. I don’t think women suffer any more (or less) from it than men.
And actually, I think your story was too pat. Too overdone and too flip. It lacked the rage the story, if true, would have caused. Maybe it actually is true, but I am not completely convinced.
Having been married for almost 17 years now, I’ve learned a few things about having a happier marriage. All of them have had to do with changing *me* and zero to do with changing my husband. And why would I want to change such a wonderful guy, anyway?
My husband and I are both fully committed to lifelong marriage. We view marriage as a covenant, not a contract. We knew that about each other from the beginning.
But, as I will advise my daughters before they marry, while we can’t count on guarantees, things have gone a lot more smoothly if I…
1) never, never, *never!* nag (a destructive, manipulative, and counterproductive behavior);
2) never selfishly refuse an opportunity for intimacy (“just not in the mood,” “too tired,” etc.–how much joy we women miss out on with lame excuses–and we never know how long we have together–what if I lost him tomorrow?);
3) Be grateful for and dwell on his wonderful traits because the rest is totally insignificant in comparison;
and finally, 4) learn what says “I love you” loudest to him and do that, even if it does not come naturally to me. (Learned this from one of the most helpful marriage books I’ve ever read: *Five Love Languages*)
It’s all about learning your spouse, laying down your life for him, and vice versa. Love manifests itself in actions, not mere words. I firmly believe a woman who does at least these four things for her husband will be married to a happy man. “Do unto your husband as you would have him do unto you.” It’s that simple, really.
Why don’t men show up? Battlespace preparation by their spouses.
“Criticize Him Daily …by carving into his ego like a Thanksgiving turkey, you can effectively break down his self-esteem… A man’s self-image is greatly affected by his perception of his virility. If you degrade his sexual ability, you will essentially emasculate him – his entire sense of self-worth will be dismantled.” – Divorce War – 50 Strategies Every Women Needs To Know To Win
@Jenny 3:02 PM
- “I think your story was too pat.”
It’s true! The first draft was a long whine. I cut it right down and it shows badly.
- “…women who married, inherited, and lost it all to a husband who squandered it, or became instantly deadbeat.”
Yeah, and I can imagine him now. He’s drinking a beer, watching TV and cursing all the neighbours. Probably he’s wearing dirty clothes and the house is a mess too. My point is that free money is not a blessing and that’s been common knowledge from the oldest times.
It’s human nature. If you work in an office like me, you know what it’s like when the supervisor is away. Do your colleagues keep the customers in mind all day? Hell no! They do “enough” work by their standards, and then they crack jokes, gossip and throw paper planes at each other. I love it.
Free money does that too until it’s spent. I’d like to think that these office ladies can become angelic mothers through the transcendent power of maternal love, but my actual mother said otherwise…
Which reminds me: can you answer my original question?
I’ve been wanting to say something about this entire topic since that article appeared in City Journal written by that clueless harridan. First some disclaimers, 30 years old, single, never married, military veteran, college grad, current graduate student.
A while back, some friends over drinks asked out of the blue to name “the first three things that come to mind when I say ‘American women’ ” – without thinking twice I blurted out “shallow, materialistic, and whiny.” Dead silence. I thought for a second to see if I wanted to change my mind, part of me wanted to panic and instantly apologize, for fear of the good old “SEXIST, RACIST< BLAAAARRRGGHHHHH” that seems to come out anytime you even _criticize_ women these days, but nope, I stand by it.
In fact, I’d like to add to it a little bit:
1) It seems like American women have developed an ability to completely deny or accept personal responsibility, for ANYTHING in their lives, at all. It’s either (whine) the system is nooooottt faaaaiiiiir, or “it’s my ex’s fault” or anybody else’s fault but their own. Sorry, not an endearing quality ladies, and not the mark of equality
2) A sense of entitlement, esp entitlement to bad behavior (which should just be accepted, because, you know, they’re women and _empowered_ after all). I don’t think that anyone, regardless of gender, race or whatever, is entitled to jack or shit
Also, if diversity, sensitivity, and sexual assault awareness training have actually accomplished anything, it’s made men and women distrustful of each other, to a horrible degree, and with the legal deck stacked in a woman’s favor (so, has anyone ever seen a woman punished substantially for false rape accusations, for false sexual harassment allegations, or actually held to work standards, ever?)
Here’s what really happens at a military unit when we get our annual “sexual assault awareness briefing”
1) the guys sit there and stew, because we have to listen to some politicized civilian, who is completely outside the chain of command, lecture us about how bad we are
2) if we ever speak up, we get slapped down by complicit senior (usually male) NCOs and officers who remind us that “sir, we’re not here to argue the policy, but enforce it”
3) after we’re done, all of us disgruntled males discuss what a load of bullshit we’ve been forced to swallow again while several of the females scamper off, with and even bigger sense of false pride than they had before, singing “I’m every woman” and “You go girl” (yes there is some sarcasm here)
My favorite SARC comment was “you guys might as well bring written contracts to the bar with you if you even plan on getting with someone again”
The irony is, that long after the current cultural fads have been discredited, or even if the law corrects the current imbalance, it will persist in the services because we are so go at enforcing what we’re told, after we’ve exhausted our objections and advice to the commander and he says “press”
I think the entire bottom line is this: us guys, our bullshit meter has been pegged, and since we don’t have the legal recourse to correct things, and since women seem much more interested in “privelege” than actual “equality” (I don’t see any one out there DEMANDING to sign up for Selective Service), since they seem to chastise us for criticizing their gender, but then have no problems falling back on it or using sex as a weapon (that’s called empowerment supposedly) – why should we bother? You can call us “CGLITS” (Can’t Get Laid in the States) all you want, but for guys, the less bullshit we have to put up with, the happier we are.
Women ought to take a hard look in the mirror, because the feminists did you a disservice: they won you freedom, BUT, they sure as hell failed in telling you what the heck you were supposed to DO WITH IT.
Reading these posts makes me realize that Marriage indeed is just not for everyone.
Yes, there are some really nasty women out there – and an equal number of mean men.
I tend not to generalize and treat everyone as an individual. Stupidity is not gender discriminatory.
That said, a real feminist would not take a man to the ringer – she’d have a job and a career of her own. It’s the lets play house-wife types that usually become mean and vindictive. With all the new technology gadgets, such women simply have too much time on their hands to be miserable about not having more to do. Doing laundry? What exactly are you doing besides throwing clothes into the washer? The machine does the washing, while you sit in-front of the TV watching day time soaps. Cook? Ha!
Honestly – the statistics prove my point. If you want a good marriage. Find yourself an educated woman with a life of her own and insist she keeps her job – at most taking off a year or two when the kids are really young.
And please – the lazy wannabe leaches – who want to sit around the house all day claiming they are rearing kids – and then rob their Husband of all his contribution to the marriage fund in divorce – are NOT feminists. Dom Female and Submissive Male is not an equal partnership! I would not support it, just as I would not support the reverse. That’s true feminism.
For those tending toward rational choice explanations, consider marriage from a woman’s perspective. You want to have children, security, and a meaningful life, including romance. So market yourself as a proponent of traditional marriage, get a husband, produce the kids, keep the guy around to help out during their early years, and then and only then divorce.
Benefits to you: you can be the center of attention of friends and family for a while, you can recast your self-centeredness as a heroic strike against patriarchy, you can count on income supplementation without any reciprocal obligations, and you can search for romance forever. With him out of the house you can either have weekends free while he takes care of the kids or you can shut him out forever. What’s not to like?
If she sounds too good to be true, she probably is 4-5% of women are Borderline Personality Disordered (have BPD). They will turn on you, peel away everything you own and are, using the evil legal system, and then never think of you again, anymore than you are still thinking about some old toaster you threw away 20 years ago.
Alice AN-
You hit the nail on the head. I make quite a bit more money than my husband and I always have. Women who do not have marketable careers can be more insecure and that does result in some bad behavior. It’s a fact that after a divorce, that OVERALL the standard of living for men is higher than for their former wives ( I realize there are exceptions to this, this thread is full of those exceptions) because the women do usually end up with the children but child support is often inadequate. Two do live cheaper than one.
I don’t remember where I read it but the main ways to stay out of poverty/get rich are very simple:
Get at least a high school diploma.
Do not have children out of wedlock
Get married
Stay married- the average divorce costs $200,000 in attorney fees and higher costs of living for both parties. SR is also correct in that married men are healthier and live longer. As a doctor I can tell you a lot of men neglect themselves all the time and many experience deep depression after the death of a spouse. Women aren’t affected by marriage/spousal death as much. Probably because they’re the caretakers.
If you can accomplish these tasks it really is better for men and women to be married than not- and it is essential if children are in the picture. Personally, I agree that the respect angle is huge. Being an apha male has nothing to do with physical dominance. It has to do with standing one’s ground. I had three proposals before I settled on my husband of 15 years (including wealthier, more sensitive and more handsome men). He was the first one who wouldn’t let me run all over him. To this day, I do anything I want within reason, but he has very few things he about which there is no compromise- one is a very expensive hobby, another is complete fidelity.
So I find things to do while he’s having his fun and keep my eyes off other guys. Really, it’s very simple. And there’s a certain security in knowing he’ll do whatever it takes to make sure that his family is safe. And I don’t have to give up a bit of my feminist identity for that, although I am a pretty good shot, too.
I am an attorney who practices family law in New Jersey. I have also been divorced once and have remarried.
Should men get married? I give a qualified yes as an answer. Here are the qualifications:
1) Do not get married without a prenuptial agreement. And not just any pre-nup, either. This pre-nup should address every property settlement issue as if you were in a divorce proceeding. Special emphasis should be made on protecting your pre-marital assets, eliminating claims for alimony, and securing visitation rights with your children. Have your fiancee VIDEOTAPED being questioned about each term of the agreement, and expressing her voluntary consent. While a significant burden, this makes the agreement bullet-proof later in court. Ignore this recommendation at your own peril.
2) Marry Up. Alot of the horror stories you hear stem from women who try to milk all the marital assets in a divorce, because they want to live off you post marriage for the rest of their lives. Avoid women who are too dependent and needy economically. The more she makes than you, the better. Remember the old adage of our grandparents’ generation: It is just as easy to fall in love with a rich person as a poor one.
3) Don’t marry an American. This sounds facetious, but the idea is to find a woman who has not been marinated in Feminazi Ideology. This will eliminate most American educated women. Better for you to find a girl who was home schooled or from a culture which at least respects the Manly Virtues, such as most Asian cultures. This is NOT a prescription to go get yourself a mail-order bride, however. Such foriegners are just as problematic, as they are usually desperately poor and will end up viewing you as both their meal ticket and their path to citizenship.
This is hard learned wisdom for me, as I first married lower (economically) and a typical pushy American girl who entered the marriage relationship viewing it as a power struggle. When I remarried, it was someone more successful than myself, and while she is an American citizen, she grew up in China. We have been happily married for ten years and have two children.
Which brings me to why I answered “yes” at all: Ultimately, most healthy, normal men will only find true happiness in a good marriage, and in the joy that raising children brings. While expensive cars, electronics, clothes, and vacations are nice, you don’t want to find yourself alone when you reach, say, 50. For most people, a life devoid of family and children ultimately leaves one with a hole in their soul. That is the great tragedy of what the Leftist assault on marriage has meant for the average person: Misery, impovershment, and lonliness.
I’m the most fortunate of all. I’m 62 and have
been married since age
26. Because of our Faith in God we were both virgins at that time.We had those talks
about family, sex etc. Great sex is like riding a unbridled horse. I still have great sex five or more times every week.The Trojan comdom company
enjoys have my business.
We honor God and he honors us in Marriage and our careers.
When i was in the Navy SeaBees i was once called into the office for counseling because of faltering job performance. After discussing the causes which were primarily my marriage to someone who is miserable and selfish i recieved the best piece of advice i’ve ever heard about women from Senior Chief Eaton(G-d Bless him) he told me it took him two failed marriages to figure this out, but in a nut shell if a woman does’nt have a good relationship with her father she’ll never have a good relationship with any man. At first this seemed a little to all encompassing but for the last 14 years i’ve looked at other people’s good and bad relationships and his observation bears out 95% of the time. Over time the common sense of this became apparent. A female learns how to deal with males how and when? At home from childhood on starting with her own father.
Finally! The next to last current post puts the credit for successful marraige where it should be, with the Creator of that Institution. Not to say that religious folk in general and Christians in particular are more immune to divorce, only that they should be.
Pretty much everything I’ve read here only serves to prove that human pride and the human unwillingness to make God the center of the relationship is at fault here. As I’ve been married once without Him and am still married with Him at the center, and seeing the difference in the two situations is the proof in my pudding. That I would have the extensive business relationship to the folks at Trojan that he enjoys…:-)
If you must marry, only marry a virgin. Unless you marry a rich woman, but she may tire of you. But I’m totally serious about virgins for long marriages.
I’ve been blessed with a good woman. Despite some awful behavior on my part, my filipina wife stuck with me and has converted me into a good husband.
I believe this happened (partially) because, not just because divorce is illegal in the Philippines, but family is paramount. However, the REAL reason forgiveness triumphed over her darker side? Because of her upbringing and culture, her friends and family EXPECTED her to make our marriage work. Additionally, masculinity is a GOOD thing.
Wow, there are a LOT of jaded men on here. I’m 29 and unmarried but I have many, many guy friends who have been married and divorced and I have to say the mistake they made was an error in discernment above anything else. They went for pretty or the girl society/the family/their friends expected them to be married to or any number of other fleeting qualities as the primary basis and that’s very simply a poor foundation for marriage. I will say that the “feminist” movement has certainly destroyed the fabric of cohesive successful families but that’s been evolving slowly and painfully since the early 60′s. Is there anyone who didn’t see all of this coming? That said, I would love to get married but it’s going to take an extraordinary woman and I use the word because my experience with women my age is that the ordinary, as in the average woman my age, has a mindset that they have no need for a man beyond the occasional (or not so occasional) “romp in the sack”. I’m certainly not going to marry a girl because she looks good on my arm or a girl who finds most of my value to her derived from my sexual performance. Sadly, I understand that I may never get married not because I’m against marriage, afraid of divorce or resentful of women in general but simply because I’m not sure there are enough women left who have the same view of the importance (and weight) of marriage and a cohesive family for me to find one. In short, part of the problem is that the mindset of women has changed but part of it is that men seem to lack good judgement when choosing a partner. I think both sexes have, to some degree, lost the meaning of marriage. It wasn’t so long ago that when marriages hit “rough spots” both people were willing to do everything in their power to work it out because of the respect they had for the institution but it seems (in most of my friend’s cases at least) that even when comparatively trivial difficulties arise, it’s easier to cash out and divorce then actually sack up and work through the problem. Yes I know that there are some issues that cannot be fixed (adultery would be on that list in my case) but I do think that divorce has become a way to escape facing the trials of marriage and if your the type to not even try working things out, marriage probably isn’t the best choice. It’s no suprise in my generation mostly because most of my generation’s parents never had a clear understanding of lifelong commitment and many of their marriages were disastrous. Again, the dilution of the core of marriage began 40-50 years ago so is it really so suprising that generation after generation loses its grip on it to the extent that we all find ourselves in the position we’re in now?
Bear in mind that the statists (people who believe that the gov’t should run every aspect of our lives) are competing with individual men for the respect and loyalty of women.
Sa what you will about equality of the sexes, the facts remain that females are more tractable and compliant toward authority, and take pleasure in being protected and provided for.
What man can compete with the power of the state?
What man can protect and provide better than the gov’t?
What man can exert greater authority than the gov’t can, with its guns, police, armies and jails?
The answer is none. No man, considered as an individual stands a snowball’s chance in that competition — barring perhaps a king or prime minister or the like.
And you might want to think about this as you head to the polls — for certainly she will, whoever SHE is in your life.
It is more than a suggestive coincidence that it is called the nanny state.
Bear in mind that women are the majority of the population at all times that people are allowed to mate freely (China is a big exception but only because of gov’t fiat). So the closer you get to pure democracy the closer you get, not just to mob rule, but to feminine mob rule. Rule by the great unwashed masses … of women!
Freedom and individualism favor men.
Under circumstances where a woman cannot turn to the gov’t for everthing she wants … health care, child care, child support, guaranteed income, protection from thugs, blah, blah … she will turn to a man who she knows to be a respected member of a community of worthwhile men.
If she can turn to the gov’t and get all those things with the added perq of being able to indulge her whims, release from the annoyance of maintaining a relation with a man (for surely the sexes are mutually confusing and annoying at the best of times) she certainly will — most of the time, better women excepted.
==========
Consider what your grandfather got out of marriage that he could not get by himself as a single man.
Now consider what marriage offers you, that you couldn’t get on your own by staying single.
Think of what your grandfather placed at risk by marrying.
Now think of what you risk by marrying.
Which looks like the better deal?
=====
I’ll add this, take a gander at this article:
Robert W. Patterson on 1948 Revenue Act on National Review Online
From the article:
==================
I support the notion of marrying foreigners. The only relations that have been practical and stable in my life have been with women from east asia. Their education seems to have made them far more competent in personal and domestic matters than what girls get here in the US.
=================
Finally I reflect on the fact that it is usually women that first seek the commitment of marriage — ironically not the men.
I wonder sometimes what would happen if young men were to answer those probing indirect questions that start to come into the conversation with a blunt and candid “Oh, marriage huh? What’s in it for me?”.
Started counting how many times “Is” came up in all the comments and got dizzy so “I” will help all you poor men out.
Dear Helen
Dear Ann Landers and your sister
Never mind let’s skip them and go right to the source.
Dear God,
“I” didn’t mean it when “I” said “I” was loneley. Can “I” take it back? Just make more men.
Thanks
>>>
MOGS said
I’ve been wanting to say something about this entire topic since that article appeared in City Journal written by that clueless harridan. First some disclaimers, 30 years old, single, never married, military veteran, college grad, current graduate student.
A while back, some friends over drinks asked out of the blue to name “the first three things that come to mind when I say ‘American women’ ” – without thinking twice I blurted out “shallow, materialistic, and whiny.” Dead silence. I thought for a second to see if I wanted to change my mind, part of me wanted to panic and instantly apologize, for fear of the good old “SEXIST, RACIST>>>
Okay.
BUT why do you military types continue to defend this _distopian disaster_ of a country? It is an important question; the key one of all our lives.
Even a 12IQ dog will stop fetching the stick if his master hits him with it.
But you human males continue with your dog like prideful strut –head up, eyes gleaming, jaunty pace, with the fetched stick in your mouth– bringing it back to your master while he laughs at you, waiting to hit you again.
What is the matter with you military types? Are you dumber than dogs?
THIS DISTOPIAN DISASTER (called america but it’s as big as the entire english speaking and modern western world) needs to be STOPPED THROUGH ANY MEAN NECESSARY. Why aren’t you armed citizens stopping it?
Do you defend the constitution? [inherently broken nonsense that it always was] Or do you defend politicans AND the unconstitutional _pressure group activist advocacy cabals and media shysters that control them_?
The most important question of your lives. And indeed the most imporant question the destiny of mankind has ever asked…
——–
—–
PS females like jenny need to be in “reeducation work camps”.
Eugenics is good.
Dr. Helen,
I am one of those guys who have turned his back on marriage and family because I have seen what it has done to my peers.
I’m a 40yr old professional white American male, never married, no kids. I do not gamble because the odds are stacked. For that same reason I will never get married or have kids. Never ever, no way, never.
Any man considering marriage should consider the decision as being the same as betting everything he has, and will ever have, on a flip of a coin.
In the US there is better than a fifty-fifty chance a marriage will end in divorce.
If you win the bet and have happy marriage, the befits can be longer life, health, kids, good sex life, the house with a picket fence. Keep in mind you will be the one supporting the family and paying for all the stuff, but that’s ok because you love them and want them to be happy.
If you loose the bet– give up everything you now own and pay to support her for the rest of your life and/or be sent to prison.
On top of that, support the children that you may never see again and will most likely blame you for everything, for the rest of your life and/or be sent to prison.
If you never take the bet, you may still get the some of the benefits and will be not be forced to pay for your bad bet for the rest of you life and not have to risk going to prison for nonpayment of child support or some story your ex-wife concocted to get back you for marring her.
As far as a woman considering marriage, I’d take that bet in a second, if it does not work out for her, she gets his stuff and a check each month for the rest of his life. Not a bad deal.
Its sad to me that marriage has become an unreasonable risk. Russian roulette has better odds and if you loose that bet you suffer for a moment not years.
Remember when a woman needed a man like a fish needed a bicycle? What an ironic twist- turns out the bicycle doesn’t need or want the fish! What a blow to the female ego! No wonder talk of a marriage strike infuriates women. Of course, that old saying went out of fashion about the same time that Gloria Steinem got married…
The problem with feminist analysis of marriage is that they set about trying to convince themselves that women were somehow being shortchanged in marraige; therefore, they decided to “even the field” by pushing for more and more draconian, anti-male legislation. When men reacted, quite logically, by turning away from marriage or commitment, the response of feminists has been to turn to that old standby, male bashing (AKA the Peter Pan syndrome). If men don’t want to marry, why by god there must be something wrong with men! Don’t they know how lucky they are to have a woman willing to live with them…?? They must be immature, or anti-woman, or suffer from some kind of pathology…
As the men posting here have shown, however, men are just overcoming what has been, for generations, a form of female oppression. Men don’t need marriage- it is, was, and always will be, a social device for controlling men and providing for women and children. Women benefit from having a man who is forced, by law, to support her (the opposite is not true) and her children. Once he’s done the job of insemination, then he can be legally discarded, if the occasion arises. The problem for women, though, is that if another man isn’t available, they find themselves raising children without the benefit of male resources. Furthermore, women need emotional connection more than men, and need sex just as much (in spite of our gender bias in this regard). So feminism has set women up to be the ultimate losers in this uneven competition, and the new generation of men are the ironic beneficiaries of feminist social engineering! The real backlash against feminism isn’t going to come from men- it’ll come when women realize that they’ve been conned out of what is most important to their emotional well being- men- by other women who were pushing an anti male agenda.
I’m 25 this year and my parents divorced when i was 10 and ever since i grew up without any ‘dad’ figures. i get really jealous looking at other peoples happy family and wish i could have one in the future. but with 50% marriage nowadays that ends in divorce makes me think if i even wanna be a dad or get married. i suppose the fear of going through the whole episode really freaks me out but then again i don’t want to grow old and alone with a bunch of people in a senior home either.
Getting marrid in America? Are you kidding me? You can vbasically say good bye to more than half of your stuff and work until the 16th of eachmonth for your ex wife.
Is it because american women are feministic? Hell no. There are women all over the world who are feminisitc at heart. The difference is that american women have incorporated the american way of life. How can I screw more out of “the other guy”. It applies in business no matter what you buy: a car, a house, a pure bred dog…there is not one field of business that it does not apply to. So why should women be different? The laws that make it possible where initially made to protect them. And one day, after the big awakening, it will turn and then american men will retaliate.
Sad, very sad!
As to the question about getting married, ask her about a pre nuptual. Her first reaction will give you a good idea what’s coming your way.
Like I said: sad, very sad!
Interesting blog. I am 41, male, never married. I’ve always wanted to get married and have kids. Just never met the right woman. I totally agree with the post about seeing how the woman you’re with treats someone of lower social status. That is how you will be treated one day when you’re no longer ‘in favor’ with your significant other. I see a lot of guys that have stayed married, in these ‘happy marriages’, tend to be weak and submissive around their wives just to keep the peace. I find that sad. Yes, they can claim they are ‘happily’ married for ‘x’ years, but I wouldn’t want their lives no way, no how. Even the truly happlily married ones don’t say, “yes, go get married”. They tell me the grass isn’t always greener. And yet, I see other friends getting married after only 6 months of dating. No question it is more of a biological clock factor for the older guys/gals. This can work out, but more often than not it is to pop out kids irregardless of the ‘marriage’
So as I see it, I will trust my own instincts. And I intend to be happy either way.
I am 34, and the window of opportunity for marriage/family is beginning to close a bit.
I have dreamed of raising a family for most of my life (wierd, i know, for a guy, but its true). However, i fear that the only way i can meet a true MATE, and not a predator, is to move out of the country, to where women are happier and less hungry for money/power. Im thinking Sweden, or possibly Norway. Maybe there I can find a woman who will not HATE me for my penis, nor resent any ‘non-manly’ qualities i have.
With ONE exception, all of my friends who have happy marriages have married outside of the US. The fruits of Mexico, Sweden, Canada, Germany, France and Spain all seem to be far sweeter than the bitter home-grown crops . (and by that i am not so childish as to mean ‘more attractive’. in many cases they are rather plain. But they are ADULTS, and love their man the way the do themselves, and would rather insult themselves than someone they love. That is Loyalty, and that Is what is needed in a relationship between two equals)
Im sorry. I can’t get married here, knowing that as soon as i stop making money, a woman will leave me. Thats not marriage, to me, but a sort of domestic prostitution.
Marriage is misery. Any young man would be foolish to get married today. I mean, how much more evidence do you need?
As for “loneliness”…when you marry an American woman, you will eventually discover what real loneliness is. Gentlemen, you will never be as happy as when you are single. Stay that way!
I forgot to add, “David” above touches on a really key point. Marriage for men has a nice *potential* upside, on a scale of 1 to 10, maybe a plus 3 or 4. But the potential DOWNside is a much bigger absolute number, easily a minus 9 or 10. A really good marriage can make you moderately happier. But a bad marriage is like hell, prison, and war all combined. For single men in America, the RISK of marriage is enormous, the RETURN is fair to middling. Saying no to marriage is like saying no to invading Russia in the winter.
“Im thinking Sweden, or possibly Norway. Maybe there I can find a woman who will not HATE me for my penis, nor resent any ‘non-manly’ qualities i have.”
HalfJack, No and No. There you will not find the less hateful and less hungry for power. All developed nations have feminism ingrained in their systems. It is no wonder that we are importing immigrants at a high rate. This is a great cover for the horrific reality of marriage and family in our societies. Not only we are too busy working hard for our high standards and materialism; we have managed to forget about kids and the population is not meeting replacement levels.
My wife is from a less developed country. When I bought her the engagement ring; she picked out a 200 dollar ring. I asked her: “Don’t you want something nicer?”. She said: “Oh no, if we spend like that we would be living on the street”. I wonder how many girls here would take the same path and answer the same way.
Before feminists got courts to be friendlier to women, men screwed their ex-wives (not in a good way) a lot worse. What enrages some men today is that women are able to do what used to be men’s exclusive prerogative — use a spouse to put them through school and the start of their career, then dump her for a trophy and walk off with the dough.
Which brings me to the major topic of contention here — prenuptual agreements. As a lawyer, I chuckle at some of the things that have been said here. A prenuptial agreement is not a panacea, but putting aside all the many caveats and pitfalls that attend this legal device, the major question you need to ask yourself is this: are you prepared to wear the shoe on the other foot? After all, if you treat this is as a business transaction, what’s to guarantee that your bride won’t do the same? A lot of men who have posted here about prenups erroneously suggest that there are only two possibilities with respect to a woman’s reaction upon being presented with a prenup: either she’ll cry and call you a jerk and you’ll dump her gold-digging tukhos, or she’ll bite the bullet and sign the contract, promising to drink your footwash and to perform a harakiri on herself in the event of a divorce. But those are not the only, nor even the most likely, possibilities. Imagine a third scenario: you smugly present your little prenup, and your bride says something along the lines of: “I will have my attorney review this and contact your attorney with a list of changes I want made. In the meantime, I require a full list of all your assets, copies of your tax returns for the past 10 years, and an affidavit with respect to offshore assets. I also need 30 days for my forensic accountant to go over these documents, and for my attorney to check for liens on your real estate holdings. Also, while there may be other changes, I insist on a clause that any misrepresentation by either of us with respect to our respective assets renders the contract null and void (obviously, the one doing the misrepresenting cannot invoke this clause). Additionally, we are to exchange updated asset disclosure every 3 years for as long as we are married.” And, in a few weeks, she presents you with changes or additional clauses that SHE wants you to agree to, protecting HER interests. How would you feel about that? Are you sure you won’t perceive it as a lack of trust (which it certainly is) and become offended? It’s one thing to declare, with an air of superiority, that a prenup is a “legal contract” (is there any other kind?) — it is quite another to treat it like one.
Now, the small stuff from Law 101: you can’t use a contract to bind a third party, including your as yet unborn children. Thus, provisions in prenups dealing with custody, visitation and child support are not enforceable, though courts may take the parties’ wishes into consideration. Full financial disclosure is an absolute prerequisite to a valid prenup. Punitive and clearly one-sided prenups are unenforceable. Unfair tactics employed to get your intended to sign the prenup — slapping her with it 2 hours before the wedding, having 1 attorney represent both parties, forbidding her from getting her own legal counsel — likewise render the agreement null and void. Then there is a laundry list of things that you simply cannot legally agree to — that includes complete renunciation of one’s legal rights (e.g., I can divorce you, but you can’t divorce me and you can’t contest any claim I make against you). By statute in all 50 states, spouses cannot agree not to support each other. You cannot agree to the timing, manner, and triggers of divorce, although most states will allow you to EXCLUDE a specific ground (such as adultery, for example). Most importantly, however, a prenup will not guarantee that there will not be a nasty divorce litigation down the road. At best, it can guarantee you’ll win, but it is not a particularly efficient means of preventing parties from suing each other.
Finally — I am an American woman who grew up in Russia. I am fluent in Russian, maintain contacts with people in Russia and in the Russian diaspora, and remember the old country very well. With that in mind, the things some of you guys say about at least Russian and ex-Soviet women here are just howlers, HOWLERS, I tell ya. Russian women are “traditional”? As in, they adhere to traditional AMERICAN values? Russian women are not materialistic? Russian women are used to being housewives? Russian mail-order brides marry American customers for their middle-aged pot bellies and bitter rantings? BU-WHA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!! Thanks for the awesome laughs, gentlemen. I’m in stitches. Keep’em coming, guys. Please — DON’T learn your mail-order meat’s native languages and DON’T familiarize yourselves with their cultures. I’d much rather you continue to make total arses of yourselves and entertain me and Russian women with your jaw-dropping ignorance. Goryachij privet!
P.S.: Since the 1920′s, the so-called “no-fault” divorce has been the ONLY kind of divorce in Russia, so American feminists didn’t invent the concept. (Just a teaser, scraping the surface of cultural misconceptions.)
“and remember the old country very well. ”
Aha, that’s not the way it works and if you think we are that ignorant; think again. Seen my share of con-artists and I’m not even 30. You seem to have forgotten how it works first of all.
But, I get the feeling you don’t like the women there. I think I might know why. lol
“What enrages some men today is that women are able to do what used to be men’s exclusive prerogative — use a spouse to put them through school and the start of their career, then dump her for a trophy and walk off with the dough.”
I can’t help but pick on your points here. I don’t even want to go into the LAW thing because they become a bunch of rubbish when not kept clear and simplified. I’m sure there were men that did what you have written above but statistics will show that men did way less of it back then than what women do now. Basically, you are showing that women are more selfish.
I do not think the problem is limited to women, per se, but rather to certain people in general. I definitely agree whih those who have opined that if you want your marriage to last you need to find someone who is committed to the marriage- not what they can “get” out of it.
You have to give in order to get- at least that’s what I used to think. I am a 33 year old, college educated person with a decent salary. When my spouse went through law school, and the subsequent job search that followed, we lived on my income alone. I even agreed to give up my job and home and move away from all of my friends and family so that they could attend the school they wanted. I did all of this, sacrificing my own chance to go to graduate school. During our marriage this person has spent us into near poverty (expensive designer clothes, vacations, new car, etc.), been unfaithful, said and done some of the most unimaginably mean and hurtful things, has ALWAYS put themself first, and continually blames me for the things they lack. (Now they are saying that I don’t make enough money for them to afford the kind of lifestyle they want.) I live under constant threats of divorce and outbursts such as, “I’m not letting you have anything but what you came into the marriage with. You can’t have any of it; you’re not getting anything.” I don’t NEED any of this material crap, and I am coming to the conclusion that don’t need HIM either. Guess what? That’s right! I am a WOMAN. The person behaving like a entitled diva is a MAN.
Not all women are selfish, gold-digging whores. Nor are all men are ethical, hardworking, and loyal.
From Jim Rockford:
“The popularity of movies where pretty girls die instead of (being saved by brave men and of course sleep with them) disturbs me. As does the failure of any young man to try and save his female classmates from Cho at Virginia Tech. Quite literally it seems that young men have decided that young women are not worth dying for and THAT is very dangerous for society.”
Jim – have you ever been in a situation where you would potentially have to give your life in order to save a stranger? I have not, and obviously neither have you as you comment on other people’s actions on one of the most unimaginably horrible days of their lives. The students at Virginia Tech were not soldiers, they were not taught to die for the man/woman (battle buddy) to your left and to your right – they were simply students who were in a world of hell in one blink of an eye.
As a recent Virginia Tech graduate and someone who personally knows people that were shot and has been through the grief with them, you have no idea what happened that day.
Jim, are you yourself prepared to die so that a stranger can live? When you state that you are ready to do that, and honestly mean such and do not say it because it sounds good, then perhaps you can support the comments you made.
Dear Dr.Helen:
I am a 43 year old single male.I have an MBA and I am a self-made millionare.I have no reason to get married.If I get married I have to put up half of everything I work for some some idiot broad.This is no deal! Besides sex I have no use for women at all…and most of them are so easy to get into bed I don’t have to buy them dinner either! When we divorce I have to go through the legal quagmire called divorce court which is femi-nazi dominated….and pay all the legal bills.This is no deal.The best advice I have ever gotten was from a older divorced friend..He told me…”Anything that bleeds for 7 days and doe not die cannot be trusted”.Best advice I have ever gotten
I’ve been married 12 years. Alas, it is without question the biggest mistake I have ever made, and I am a careful guy. Women change after several years into a marriage, I think it’s a biological lifecycle: they turn toxic.
To any young man reading this: FOR GOD’S SAKE DO NOT GET MARRIED. Marriage is misery.
Hey there,
I’m a 25 year old guy living in Canada. I’m attractive, intelligent, active and I have a great personality (Not to brag, just paint a picture).
There is no way in hell I will ever even consider getting married. I have heard all of the horror stories and it seems like these days, aside from meeting my physical needs, women don’t have anything I want. It seems like the women I meet are materialistic, have unrealistic expectations and completely over-play their hands.
I would love to have kids, I think I would make a great father but I’m not interested in having much to do with North American women.
The Nuclear family is DEAD and it’s death, in my opinion, is the root of most of our societal problems.
“With ONE exception, all of my friends who have happy marriages have married outside of the US. The fruits of Mexico, Sweden, —>Canada<—-, Germany, France and Spain all seem to be far sweeter than the bitter home-grown crops”
Canada? Good luck with that buddy….
Marriage in America is pretty much a fools game now. It is no secret that most of the legislation that was pushed was done by man hating feminist. For me marriage turned out to be the single worst thing I have ever done. The legal system is very stacked against men. Secondly there are huge financial invectives for women to marry then divorce. Supposedly the heavy intrusion by the government into family life was supposed to protect it. It has failed miserably with more broken homes than ever and no end in sight. I personally am leaving the country to start a family, I will not do it here way to risky.
There is no benefit for guys to get married period!
GUYS UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE GET MARRIED IN AMERICA.
I’m with Tom American family courts are destroying families all over this country this is a great place to get an education and have a shot to become financially independent as a man don’t get married not in this country not in this culture I too travel abroad and will be starting my family in the other side of the world the further away from here the more control the man has total submission from a woman is easy to find abroad if you want to find true love and happiness where the system can not touch you go abroad and NEVER NEVER NEVER bring your woman abroad to America not even to visit ENOUGH SAID!
Foster, total submission would probably be better for a man who’s too weak to enjoy a partner. And it’s true: doormats are cheaper in other countries. Be wary though, many foreign women marry American men to get that cherished green card. After that, well, it’ll be time to go hunting for another doormat. The good news is that the shopping expedtion is a great excuse to travel.
Maria, Apparently you missed the part in my comment NEVER NEVER NEVER bring your wife to america not even to visit.and that I will live in my country of choice which happens to be the Philippines where the women have no control over a mans financial future no ones getting a green card from me that would not be very clever
Maria I forgot Gor comment about total submission is for weak men let’s be for real America is probably the greatest country in the world for women. You can get a man marry him have children knowing full well that if he does not do what ever you say do you know honey dew this honey dew that or if you just get tired of him and want someone else all you have to do is take him to family court have him put out of his house for no reason keep him from his children legaly for no reason plus make him pay way to much money for child support to where the man can not take care of himself happens everyday in America you call my unwillingness to participate in that weak ok but I call oppression and it is legal to do in this country no darling I just want to live in a country that women and the goverment do not control my money and my relationship with my kids and I can be treated with respect which does not happen to often in America then even if you do treat your man good you allways have the option of sticking it to him only in the western world so I choose to leave western women alone it is not the financially smart thing to do to live in a culture where the women are submissive and know how to care for a man is the thing for me be careful if more men find out how life is outside America the pickings will get mighty thin here I think
Maria:
“Foster, total submission would probably be better for a man who’s too weak to enjoy a partner. And it’s true: doormats are cheaper in other countries. Be wary though, many foreign women marry American men to get that cherished green card.”
Weakness has nothing to do with it, men are biologically inclined to want submission (power) from a woman, and women are inclined to be submissive to a man. Wymyn with “the chip” will deny this of course, but biology will always win out over brainwashing and social conditioning.
The weak, “enlightened” men do not demand submission and want “partners” (women like you who walk all over them).
“After that, well, it’ll be time to go hunting for another doormat. The good news is that the shopping expedition is a great excuse to travel.”
The chip is strong with this one.
I wrote the “bad bet” post above, and came back to see where the discussion has gone.
I find it very interesting that the women posting tend to harp on marring outside the US and the points they make only confirm to me why I will never get married. I wonder why no females have addressed a situation like mine, no marriage ever, not in North America, not anywhere on earth. I will not marry any woman (or man if that comes to pass) because marriage as it now exists is a very dangerous proposal. The issue to me is not that some group caused the problems with modern marriage; it is marriage as an institution with all the cultural and legal repercussions, has turned from a constructive aspect of society to a destructive one.
The arguments I have read against marriage seem to be an exercise in pointing blame, women destroyed marriage; or men destroyed marriage. I no longer care who is to blame, the destruction is done.
There is no panacea to minimize the damage marriage has the potential to cause, not a pre-nup, not finding a bride in another country. For myself, marriage is inevitably a sharp stick in the eye (or wallet, or groin, or what ever is most painful for you) for the majority of men, and for many women. In my opinion, many men see marriage as broken beyond repair; many women see marriage as still salvageable.
Men are not as marriage oriented as women, there are no “groom” magazines that I know of, but I have seen hundreds of “Bride” magazines. As a man, I can walk away from the whole idea of marriage with little guilt. I think it is more difficult for women to give up on marriage because they have realized that men will walk away from marriage far quicker than they were led to believe and still want the fairytale every little girl grows up with “price charming will come and marry you and live happily ever after”. Prince Charming not wanting to get married is incomprehensible.
From my experience, men that shun marriage (all marriage) befuddle women because they have trouble comprehending “A man need marriage like fish needs a bicycle”.
I have yet to hear a good argument for marriage as it currently exists.
I wrote the “bad bet” post above, and came back to see where the discussion has gone.
I find it very interesting that the women posting tend to harp on marring outside the US and the points they make only confirm to me why I will never get married. I wonder why no females have addressed a situation like mine, no marriage ever, not in North America, not anywhere on earth. I will not marry any woman (or man if that comes to pass) because marriage as it now exists is a very dangerous proposal. The issue to me is not that some group caused the problems with modern marriage; it is marriage as an institution with all the cultural and legal repercussions, has turned from a constructive aspect of society to a destructive one.
The arguments I have read against marriage seem to be an exercise in pointing blame, women destroyed marriage; or men destroyed marriage. I no longer care who is to blame, the destruction is done.
There is no panacea to minimize the damage marriage has the potential to cause, not a pre-nup, not finding a bride in another country. For myself, marriage is inevitably a sharp stick in the eye (or wallet, or groin, or what ever is most painful for you) for the majority of men, and for many women. In my opinion, many men see marriage as broken beyond repair; many women see marriage as still salvageable.
Men are not as marriage oriented as women, there are no “groom” magazines that I know of, but I have seen hundreds of “Bride” magazines. As a man, I can walk away from the whole idea of marriage with little guilt. I think it is more difficult for women to give up on marriage because they have realized that men will walk away from marriage far quicker than they were led to believe and still want the fairytale every little girl grows up with “price charming will come and marry you and live happily ever after”. Prince Charming not wanting to get married is incomprehensible.
From my experience, men that shun marriage (all marriage) befuddle women because they have trouble comprehending “A man needs marriage like fish needs a bicycle”.
I have yet to hear a good argument for marriage as it currently exists.
I will tell my son to never marry unless he married a woman from an upper middle class family (similar to my family of origin) who has a college education and is established in her job. I’ll also suggest to him that he marry when he is in his thirties.
I fell for a woman with no degree who does not put her husband in the top three priorities of her life. Not Biblical–husband and wife should place one another at the top of each other’s priorities. When they take care of each other, then they are better suited to care for children and responsibilities that are of much less importance than their immediate family. My wife is from a different background and does not appreciate the finer things that I think are imperative to properly developing children to be strong contributors to society. Further, I have had more “life experience” than she, but any advice I give (based on my experience) is treated as “talking down to her.” She never had a male role model in her life, the child of divorce, and was allowed to walk all over her stepfather. As a result, we have marriage troubles now.
As much as I wish it were not the case, marriage is a financial arrangement as much as it is a match of two people emotionally and spiritually.
Men must be VERY careful whom they marry… and yes, it would be wise for most of us to consider not marrying at all. Courts default child custody to the mother (though this is less trendy nowadays), so if divorce should happen you can expect to lose your children and half of everything you worked hard to provide during the marriage (especially bad for those of us whose wives have not contributed financially to the marriage.)
In about 90 minutes I will leave my office and go to the house of my girlfriend of several years. It has been a shaky relationship at best and several times we have broken up only to get back together again. In 90 minutes I have to tell her that we shouldn’t get married even though she wants to and expects us to. Despite my telling her my doubts she does not listen to me. She is not American by birth, but only by naturalization. Her culture is very family-oriented and not given to divorce and so my doubts do not stem from the fear of divorce, but simply from fear of being treated poorly.
I am 46 and single. I once thought that men were the problem and if only we treated our wives/girlfriends better then the relationship would flourish. I thought that her career was the most important thing to her and that her happiness was more important than mine. I couln’t be more wrong. Men, being married may still be a fine thing, but you had better make it clear to yourself – and to her – that marriage requires sacrifice from both of you. Forgiveness is necessary but it can’t replace the need to be respected. She doesn’t have to understand you, per se, but if she thinks it’s important to understand YOU and what you are about then you’ve got something there. My girlfriend of several years understands only what’s on the tip of her nose. That is all.
This evening is going to be very difficult.
There is one good thing, which is the example of the Scandinavian countries, especially Sweden. Marriage is disappearing there. Yet both men and women are happier than in the U.S., and children are healthier, smarter and happier in Sweden as well.
So, it looks like marriage is to men and women what slavery was to blacks and whites. Get the BAD INSTITUTION out of our lives, and human decency will have room to find a healthier relationship for all.
Marriage is not disappearing in Sweden Kai. They have been backed up into a wall to have lax immigration laws to bring in young couples and yes couples that marry outside.
Now Denmark, should seem like your utopia. It does not take in young couples mostly due to its land capability. I would imagine is expensive as heck to live there. So, everyone is going to hop over to Sweden due to the socialist utopia that is Denmark.
Marriage is a bad institution to people who don’t know how to make it work.
And yes, if you want to be free then you must reduce contact with another conscience. I guess it’s directly proportional to loneliness.
Some of the comments above point out something else that is wrong with today’s society – the need for a ‘blame culture.’ Marriage is about two people working together and supporting each other despite hardship and other obstacles and I think after a few years of dating you can see the bad elements of your partners’ character as well as the good. So it strikes me as a little strange that many of the men on this site are suddenly ‘surprised’ by their wife’s behaviour. If you wife is showing signs of being the ‘Bridezilla’ type then obviously she wants the wedding more than the marriage and has the potential to be controlling. Most ‘control freaks’ are actually terribly insecure, and this trait has fairly obvious signs. Constantly obsessing about how they look, a need for other men to find them attractive, a need to tell you how you should live you life, etc etc. Unless you get married in a hurry, these things can’t be hidden forever when you’re dating.
As for American women being morally corrupt, as some have suggested, that is a generalization and is certainly not applicable to every American woman. I’m British but I have moved to the US and I don’t think American women are very different to women of other nationalities. They do have high expectations, but then, so do most men it seems. An example would be that a close friend’s marriage is falling apart and he blames his wife for their problems, but as a friend of both partners, it is clear that they are both equally to blame for the circumstances they find themselves in. He would never admit this.
It really comes down to this – the law needs to be changed. Men should have to contribute a reasonable amount for child support, but they should not have to support their ex-wife in her chosen lifestyle after a divorce. They should also be allowed a fair custody hearing and both parties should share custody unless there is a very good reason why this should not be the case (i.e. in cases where it is proven that one spouse or the other is violent or completely unable to support the child). And women should not be able to make outrageous claims about the behaviour of the husband, unless there was strong prior evidence. Any woman with a conscience would not be okay with their estranged or ex husband not seeing his children. He has rights too. And no matter how bitter you are, denying someone their right to see their children, or to be financially secure and move on with their life is not acceptable.
I think any reasonable person (yes, even a liberal woman such as myself, who seems to be widely abused in many of your comments
) can conclude that men should have equal rights in marriage, divorce and child custody. I am uncertain why women tend to get custody of children unless it is because of the old theory that women have more of a bond with their children because they give birth to them? I have no idea how widely believed this notion is. But men should have equal opportunities. I’m quite cautious about getting married. But then, I have an understanding, supportive and open minded partner who can communicate with me when he is unhappy, without fear that I will act like a five year old, as so many women seem to do. I don’t think today’s society encourages women to pursue marriage either, mainly because the prevailing social view in the west is that marriage is doomed to fail. This is not encouraging for any woman or man and so the attitude that you can walk away if things don’t work out has prevailed instead. The idea of a divorce or breaking up a child’s family is a nightmare scenario, but marriage has always been risky for that very reason. Only difference now is that divorce is more socially acceptable. I sympathise with any man who has been screwed over by his ex wife and pre nuptial agreements are certainly a major sticking point. I’ve never been able to decide whether they are proof that a partner doesn’t trust his intended, or whether they are just practical. I would probably be offended if a man asked me to sign one – it would signify he had doubts about my integrity, but it is unfortunately something many people now feel is necessary because of some terrible court judgements that have ‘taken men to the cleaners’. Marriage should not be a business and the law needs to adapt to reflect this. Equal rights are not being upheld in divorce courts and this must change. Sorry this is so long!
Wow, that was depressing reading (in the main)…
I think the start and cornerstone of a happy marriage is friendship.
I married my first boyfriend – he’d been a friend for 6 months before we started dating…
I knew him, I liked him, I noticed his qualities and respected him and then he asked me out…shortly thereafter,love was added to the list.
Our relationship started with a solid base, friendship and an emotional connection…
I sometimes wonder whether putting a physical relationship ahead of the emotional bond is the problem…not taking the time to get to know someone.
It seems like courtship is dead and buried…everything moves so quickly.
My husband & I have been together for 27 years now…(we’re now in our late 40′s)
I’d call our marriage a life partnership – we started with nothing and are now financially secure – we both have professions and equally contributed to our nest egg. If we did divorce, the division would be simple…50:50
Reading all your life stories makes me thankful that I didn’t have to navigate the whole dating scene and spend years looking for the “right” one. I’m also, pleased I haven’t been through a nasty divorce. (not yet anyway!)
IMO some of the best relationships have been formed when great friends got together…that solid base stands a better chance of survival.
Also,
I think a great mistake is often made when men marry much younger women – my brother-in-law has been burnt twice…(both refused to sign a pre-nup)
A much younger woman usually brings less into a marriage and therefore, usually leaves with more…
And remember, a pre-nuptial agreement offers little protection if a child is born…
Also, marrying someone purely for their looks is usually, a mistake…
My BIL thought his young beautiful wife was a huge asset until she walked away with a younger man and his assets! Also, people change over time…attractiveness should be a more rounded concept that includes personality, compatibility & character.
I think it’s also, better if both parties are capable of looking after themselves. If your spouse is dependent IMO, it can contribute to growing-apart and you usually have to pay more support after a divorce – she/he also, has the worry of trying to re-enter the workforce and find a decent job.
Good luck everyone – take a close look at your friends!
I lost everything. I loved my wife very much. I worked hard, she had sex with men from the internet and took my daugher, the two houses I built, my dog and my things. She accused me of abuse (a lie, in person she told me ‘she just was not meant to be with one man’ and that saying I was abusive was the best way to get what she wants.
My daughter is four and threw her teddy bear away because ‘ he was old and a boy’
I think of suicide often and fight a daily battle with depresson.
I remember she was so happy when I asked her to marry me.
It is very sad what women have decided to do to men. Just because you can do something does not mean it is a right thing to do.
The legal system is cruel and encourages women to use children as pawns to get money and assets. My daughter has been taught that I am old Papa and old things should be thrown in the bin. She says it makes her sad and that she hit under her bed and cried after momma made her throw her ted out. She is scared that I will be put in a plastic bag and thrown out and I had to show her that I could tear a bin bag so I could get out if I was put in one.
The court system has backed my ex completely, her female barrister knew the female judge and I learned afterwards that they were both themselves divorced.
I read a lot of internet postings from women who have affairs and decide that their husband is ‘stupid’ or ‘shit’ or ‘emotionally abusive’ (I’n my case writing a love letter to her after she had dcided to divorce was represented as psychological torture in court),
It’s is very sad what these small selfish mean women and their embittered mothers have done to men, children and society. The pride and ‘bravery’ in their ‘strength’ to be sexually unfaithful, ‘follow their heart’ etc.
Men should not marry. It is sad that the law and a twisted femminism with no courage to face the fact that there are just as many women as men go bad when faced with material and sexual temptation has destroyed an institution of partnership and love. Children and men suffer.
I miss my daughter (I get to have her stay for three weeks a year).
This is a remarkable post with comments spanning several years. I will add another comment to the pile.
I came here through Google, interested in the idea of feeling like I would never marry anyone – reading this material has gotten me to reflect on much of what I have studied as a theologian and the understanding that has been passed on regarding this topic within the wisdom literature traditions that gave us the Bible and other texts. Granted, the vision and opinion of women transitions over time, but contrary to what many feminists claim (and at HDS one encounters much of this) the role of women from a cultural and scriptural point of view – especially in the late second temple period – is astounding.
Effectively, the male of the species is a persistent sojourner – his role within the familial and civic unit is defense and support of the infrastructure of a culture.
The female of the species establishes the culture of her household, just as a city establishes the culture of its citizens. This has lasting impact and is taken very seriously, to the point that prophetic narratives warn against marriage or deny requests for marriage to women who belong to cities or kingdoms that are pending judgment and execution – reason being that if you married a woman from a country or city that was pending the fulfillment of prophecy, you would bring the curse of the city along with you into your own household.
While this has little interest to secular circles, it yields a number of principles that I have followed, despite being mocked for my singlehood into my mid-30s, and throw back at my friends that learning how NOT to date and whom NOT to marry is as significant as the reverse. Perhaps more so.
The guidelines that I have followed are as follows:
1) I should be able to tell my child ‘listen to your mother’ and sincerely mean it.
2) I should appreciate the personality, mannerism, language and habits of my wife, because my kids will generally follow her lead more than myself. This isn’t a perfect mix but – for example, if I start taking it personally when I am ‘neglected’ then I miss the entire boat.
3) The purpose of marriage is the establishment of a hearth – ultimately to host and have something to offer to the community. If this is not the aim for both people, marriage is pointless and unnecessary.
4) The purpose of having children is to multiply the benefits we have received – to provide an opportunity to engender a person who might grow wise and do good things on earth. There are a lot of people who wants children, but really should just have puppies – and even then… poor puppies!
5) Be wary of beauty – it is a trap 90% of the time. It is designed to dissuade you from your values and your own will – it makes people crazy. Some call this love, but scripture is quite clear about calling this foolishness. If a person is not trained to seek wisdom and see that as the most erotic of enterprises, then marriage – indeed many of life’s ventures are doomed from the outset and unsustainable.
There are many other statements that are harder to quantify in modern times – but one that I think many will relate to is that a contentious wife (or husband) is the most terrible curse for a household…
When I have shared these comments with women my age, they become very frustrated. They don’t feel the responsibility is evenly spread – and I tend to agree. It is difficult to be a mother – it is not easy. It is not for everyone.
When I share this with girls in my youth programs, they are actually quite happy. Young girls want the bar to be raised, and when the bar is raised, they do have a good chance of becoming adult women – not latent adolescents tromping through their 30s and 40s with overbearing, disoriented narcissistic tendencies. And I have met a number of women who appreciate that when the bar is raised, their marriage and their children have a much larger impact than their own happiness. Their marriages are less likely to be co-dependent addiction factories or vampirical contests of endurance.
Nothing gets a young girl or woman more interested in learning that the principle that every piece of information – every skill, every bit of knowledge they take in and understand – it’s an investment in the future of their family and ultimately in society for at least 60 years down the line. I have found over the years that I have done this – making that kind of impact transforms a young woman’s thinking in ways that career goals and breaking the glass ceiling just cannot match.
The problem I see with marriage is that it takes away the need for women to keep their boyfriend’s happy. In a “casual” relationship – and by casual I mean any relationship that is not committed by law – both partners have to put their relationship first, have to work at making their partner happy, and do whatever they can to be attractive. Otherwise, very simply, one of them will call a halt and break up with the other.
Once you get married, guys lose this ability but women not only retain it, they get a stronger one which is “call a halt and get something extra out of it”. So all of a sudden, she has no reason to be nice to you, no reason not to nag you and deprive you of your freedom, no reason to watch her appearance, and no reason to ‘give it up’ to you – a phrase women use which I find bizarre as it suggests that sex is purely a gift women can choose to give to men, rather than something to be enjoyed equally by both. How many ‘whipped’ guys do you know who are in the trap of “no sex and no friendliness unless you do as I say?” In a relationship this cannot happen, because if it does, the relationship will end, and that applies to both men and women. If a man decides to stop making an effort by being romantic, taking care of his girlfriend when she’s sick, watching his appearance, etc, she will dump him, and rightfully so. The exact same is true of the girlfriend if she loses interest.
In a marriage, if a man does any of the aforementioned things he will too be dumped – and taken to the cleaners in the process. IF, on the other hand, it’s the woman who stops making an effort, there is realistically nothing the man can do about it other than basically pay her half of his wealth to leave him. So it’s a sad fact of human nature than once someone no longer has to work for something, they won’t. Astonishingly, I even see women admit to this on these online forums, when the uncomfortable scenarios come up for discussion, and the responses usually seem almost shocked at the suggestion that the person you marry should be the same person once you’re married: “Why would I do that now, I already got him to marry me so I don’t need to ‘win him over’ anymore?”
I sincerely hope that this is not true, I believe in true love – but all the evidence I’ve ever seen suggests otherwise. I am only 23 so perhaps it’s simply that those who are unhappy complain about it, while those who are happy don’t shout about it – I hope that’s the case, but I still grit my teeth for the day when my girlfriend will no longer “have” to care about our relationship and I can look forward to a celibate life with someone who only ever nags and tells me what to do. I googled something like “why should men get married” hoping to find some consolation and I found this article…………….
My disappointment – as you can imagine – was extreme.
I have read all the ”I know how to handle this” comments…Take it from someone who at 60,has nothing,owes plenty and is paying for a ”crime” he didn’t commit.The comments about having married the ”right” one are all great ,but will change with the stroke of the pen from any divorce firm.You can believe as i did that it is all wonderfull and say”we have this all figured out”.WRONG
I have been bitterly divorce. The problem I see is the court systems coddling women – give them the kids, family home, child support etc, and throwing out the man. The judges can get away with this because society will not disagree – “the man must have dome something wrong”. Other women then learn this and use the techniques. Those who are doting to their men are chastised – “you need to stand firm for your needs. Go to court if he does this to you”. I am remarried – but she earns jsut about same as me and no children – I wont lose financlially in case we want to split.
All I have to say is keep it up, men. Things are going to get worse before they get better…but they will get better, if we stay the course.
Marriage only benefits women and this is even truer of divorce. Until the playing field is leveled to the point where no gender bias exists, I’ll never get married again.
I put her through school, asked her to work from day one, as that had always been the agreement, worked in this country whilst going to school and sleeping on the floor so that I could save for a life here, pay my rent and support them back home whilst she was going to school, only to have her refuse to work once I got her here, never respect my want and need to also be a parent to my daughter, have her tell me that the money that I worked so hard for was hers as well, and to this day, she still lords my little girl over my head, and last but not least, she was physically abusive once. I was a very good husband, not perfect, but very, very good and I honestly used to love her so much that I had even crawled across landmines just to be with her (Russia and closed cities), and I am telling you very clearly that I do not feel that way about her now.
Fortunately, I am not a victim, as that would render me powerless and what she did, was my fault, because I allowed it to go on in my life, but suffice it to say, that I will never, ever get married again. I’d rather burn in hell. Stripped of the one human that matters to me and why? So my ex can have more money (she still isn’t self supporting. I’ll never do it again. Never.
To make matters worse, the family courts, judges, attorneys and the soon to be ex-wives all figure to make out handsomely at the financial expense of the men, no matter how good of a person he is and was. The aforementioned do not care at all about the child’s right to a father, a father’s right to the child or the fact that many children do not make out well at all in single mother households. The facts are clear. Sadly, people still pretend that the facts aren’t the facts due to their continuing greed.
Women squawk about wanting equal rights, there are multiple examples of women that are extremely successful in their careers (Carly Fiorina ad infinitum), yet women have ZERO problem with making excuses for themselves as “mothers,” “victims,” yet touting your self sufficiency and equality EXCEPT when you’re busy having family court take what are his children too and HIS money.
You ought to be ashamed of yourselves, but of course you’re not and until you are and until things are equal, I’ll forego marriage. It just isn’t worth it.
ps. Many of you will say that women don’t make out any better from a divorce than a man does, but we all know better. I see it everyday at work. I don’t know how many men have come back from deployment to find out that she is having sex with someone else, filed for divorce, took the kids and half, and now she wants alimony too. Pathetic.