Ask Dr. Helen: Getting What You Ask For
The first question was emailed by a reader who has a bit of an ethical dilemma:
Dr. Helen,
My wife and I have a 4 year old daughter, and she’s 8 months pregnant with a donor egg IVF. We don’t plan on having any more after this – she’s 45, I’m 47. We have 8 frozen embryos left from the donor cycle. The egg donor is an extraordinary young woman—an athlete and lawyer, with successful siblings and grandparents who were active until they were 100. I’m not quite that outstanding, but I do have multiple graduate degrees in technical fields.
In a few years we would like to donate the embryos to an infertile couple, but we feel a deep responsibility to make sure they go to what we consider good homes. We would want them to go to a happy, healthy, married, stable heterosexual couple with good incomes and college educations. We would prefer that they go to a couple that wants more than one child, and would try for more than one from this batch. We would like some kind of infrequent communication—a yearly letter, perhaps—to let us know how they are doing. Later in life we would like them to have the chance to meet our child, their genetic sibling.
Are these desires reasonable?
Dear Reader,
First, let me start by stating the reason that I think you have chosen to ask this question—perhaps there is a part of you that is uncomfortable that you have these desires as our society focuses so heavily on the politically-correct concepts of “tolerance and equality” in our society. While this might be a political ideal, when it comes to personal decisions such as who to have children with, having specific desires is entirely reasonable. Why? Because if you were going to have a child with someone the natural way, you could pick the person of your choice. You could decide that you want your partner to be healthy, happy, financially stable, college-educated and exclusively heterosexual if you were choosing a mother of your children, or even if you were putting a child up for adoption. So why shouldn’t you choose the couple who will receive your donor eggs the same way?
As for wanting open communication and letting the children meet later in life, experts seem to think this is a fine idea. In fact, there was a letter in “Dear Prudence” that I read recently that addressed the topic of genetic siblings who were adopted finding each other later in life. Prudence states:
It’s hard to believe that people who choose open adoption have kept it secret from their child that she is adopted. Adam Pertman, executive director of the Evan B. Donaldson Adoption Institute, told me that on reunion registries, adoptees are as interested in finding their siblings as their birth parents. He himself is the adoptive parent of a daughter who has full and half siblings by her birth mother, and has always known about them. You can’t control what the adoptive parents reveal, but Pertman says that unless there are strong extenuating circumstances, more openness is better for everyone, and it also avoids the awful question, “Why didn’t you tell me sooner?”
Although your situation is a bit different with using donor eggs as opposed to adoption, it still boils down to asking the donor recipients—just like adoptive parents—to be open with the children that they have and agreeing in writing to allow the siblings to meet later in life if they so desire.
Good luck with everything.
The next question is from a reader who is afraid of being perceived as rude and ends up getting walked all over—literally:
Dr. Helen,
My wife pointed out a particular neurosis (aka whineyness) that I’ve been dealing with for a long time. Getting down to the point, I have an unreasonable fear of people thinking I’m being rude when I am not.
For example, when my wife and I are out for a walk with our infant daughter, I will often move in front of or behind my wife rather than walk with her, because I don’t want to be in anyone’s way. On some occasions where I muster the nerve to actually walk with my own wife, I’ll inadvertently crowd my wife to one side to make way for other people. It’s almost like I don’t feel like I deserve the space I was allotted, so I try to use less of it.
My wife thinks I’ve been conditioned by society to think I’m always in the wrong, and am just acting accordingly. This certainly jibes with my tendency to beat myself up for making mistakes. (Something I didn’t learn from my parents, who subscribed to the “Okay, you screwed up. Now what are you going to do about it?” school of errors.)
So we come to my question: Do you think there might be something to my wife’s theory that I’m just responding to societal expectations that I’m incompetent and rude?
For bonus points, could you suggest someplace I might take rudeness lessons? An excess of politeness wouldn’t go amiss if I lived in, say, Fargo. But I live in a suburb of Boston, and one of these fits of pathological politeness can be physically dangerous if they happen while driving on the I-95. (Come to think of it, maybe I’m just compensating for the rudeness of the general population, trying to bring down the average as it were).
Dear Reader,
I think you are going to have to do some soul-searching on this one. I don’t know enough from your letter to truly understand where this behavior is coming from so I will take a look at two possibilities, one of which might fit you. The first possibility is that your “pathological politeness” as you call it, is due to a sense that you do not have the right to act like a “man” and perhaps have internalized a sense of shame from a society that tells you that you are part of the patriarchy, are part of a group that has trampled on other people’s rights and that to act in an “aggressive manner” is a negative way to behave. For example, old gender studies have indicated that men typically take up more personal space than women and tend to spread out more than women. Going back to your situation on the sidewalk, perhaps your fear is that you will be seen as “too manly” and thus, perceived as an unenlightened thug if you demand your fair share of space.
I have seen this fear of manliness in many modern husbands and fathers. Some men today are afraid of appearing like their own fathers, whom they thought of as unfair, controlling or condescending to women—the son swears he will not act the same way. Unfortunately, he often goes to the opposite extreme of letting his wife or others run all over him. These men are often doing dishes, watching the kids and earning much of the money all the while feeling guilty if anyone is unhappy with them. If you think this may be your problem, I have a couple of suggestions. Pick up a copy of %%AMAZON=1875989285 How To Be a Man%% by John Birmingham and learn how to gain more self-confidence in being a man. In addition, get %%AMAZON=0061243582 The Dangerous Book for Boys%% and build a treehouse, make a go-cart or learn to engage in fun activities that will make you appreciate how much fun it is to be a man. Ignore the societal pressures and male bashing and practice carrying yourself with pride until it feels real.
The second possibility is that you are not responding to societal pressure about being a man, but are actually afraid to grow up. You do not see yourself as a grown man with a child and wife to take care of, but rather, view yourself as a kid who does not feel entitled to respect and at the same time you are bothered by the subsequent responsibility that comes with being an adult. You mentioned “whineyness” which is what kids resort to when they don’t know what is expected of them. You also may feel uneasy walking proudly beside your wife as this would symbolize your status as “father and husband.” If you are afraid to assert yourself in life for fear of what it means psychologically, you might want to consider a few sessions with a counselor or professional who might explore this with you for further insight.
Finally, forget the “rudeness lessons”—a gentleman has both self-confidence and manners which do not include being rude to others who have done no wrong. I think the “lessons” you are looking for might be assertiveness training—this is something that might be helpful if your problem is just plain shyness and an inability to assert yourself because of low self-esteem or other reasons.
Here is some online information, or you can contact a professional in your area who specializes in assertiveness training.
Drop a line in the comments and share your thoughts on either of the questions above. Or if you have a question you would like answered, please leave it below or email me at askdrhelen@hotmail.com>askdrhelen@hotmail.com. Your questions may be edited for length and clarity. Please note that your first name only or no name at all will be used to identify your question-if you want me to use your name, tell me, otherwise you will be referred to by your first name or as “a reader” etc.
Helen Smith is a psychologist specializing in forensic issues in Knoxville, Tennessee and blogs at drhelen.blogspot.com.
This advice column is for educational and entertainment purposes only and does not purport to replace therapy or psychological treatment.
My wife and I have three wonderful children from IVF that were donated from a couple who were in a similar situation. I can say with deep sincerity “God bless you and thank you” to the couple that write you. While all children are miracles, ours were especially so, and a loving couple we never met cooperated to produce our miracle.
Most donor embryos are injected in pairs, and multiples are common. We go to a yearly picnic sponsored by the fertility clinic that helped us, and I always look for sibs. I have no idea what I would do if I thought I saw some sibs of our children, but my interest is keen. So I understand the wishes of the couple who wrote to want their children to know their genetic siblings.
I have a different take on the situation though. I would suggest that the couple surrender their embryos to God and pray for and trust Him with the placement. It is my experience that God is trustworthy.
I can assure them, that gay or straight, the people who are gifted the chidren will treat them like the blessing and miracle that they are. Most fertility clinics maintain scrapbooks replete with photos of children and families. It would not take many minutes looking at one of those for the donor couple’s heart to be touched.
I appreciate their kindness and thoughfullness. I just suggest adding a little prayer and faith to the mix, then surrendering the outcome to Someone who loves those children to be more than the couple or their new parents will.
Just my 2, well, 3 cents.
Trey (I have a few photos of our 4 year old triplets from donor embryos posted on my website)
Letter two, I would lean toward the second interpretation, though with many of the same caveats that you started with. Thinking that you need “rudeness” lessons communicates pretty clearly that you still think that normal family behavior is rude.
Why not just pretend you’re confident? Who’ll know the difference? I am not just being flip here. Acting confident will create a dissonance that should illustrate to you quite quickly why you don’t want to act confident. You will feel anxious. Endure the anxiety. Your ancestors endured worse and you have their genes.
Just do your job, dude.
“My wife and I have a 4 year old daughter, and she’s 8 months pregnant with a donor egg IVF.”
My first reaction was to question the wisdom of having a 4 year old carry a donor egg.
Re: Letter Two – I do the same thing, but don’t feel that it’s whineyness at all. In my mind, it’s simply “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” I find it extremely rude to see 3 or 4 people walking abreast in a supermarket aisle with no thought whatsoever for the people who are trying to make their way past them, so I refuse to do the same thing.
Is it possible your characterization of it as “whineyness” or an “unreasonable fear of being rude” (rather than a reasonable desire not to be rude) are your wife’s characterizations and not your own?
I don’t think it is any of these. I think that he probably comes off as a weenie at times perhaps, crying foul at things that most people think trivial. However, what really is behind all this is what you might call false OCDness or what my wife and I usually call “Monkishness” after the TV character Adrian Monk. (It is particularly fitting, I suppose, for me.) Basically, he moves out of the way when he walks because he should! He’s right! After all, it isn’t his side walk. When one uses common property like a public sidewalk they are duty bound to make an effort to not interfere with anyone else’s use of the same. He is just being a bit more careful than most people are, is all, probably even to the point of always going a little beyond his duty so as to err on the side of caution. And, perhaps that leads to conflict by way of his criticizing conventional behavior apparently as if it were not conventional (because everyone else isn’t doing the same thing he’s doing).
The problem with all of this and the key to understanding it is that whether something is rude or not is not simply a social convention. It is quite possible for everyone to just be rude — the fact that everyone does it doesn’t suddenly make rude behavior not rude. So, now one does have to make a choice — do they just do as the Romans, so to speak, and act rude (like everybody else)? Or, do they act properly even when no one, or most people, are not?
That question certainly is a personal one that I won’t attempt to even discuss the multitude of issues surrounding it here. Suffice it to say, though, I think there is this other possibility here, and he sounds like he kind of fits the bill. His whinyness is just him legitimately contesting the appropriateness of what actually is (technically speaking) rude behavior. Indeed, he may be considered a leading expert on such things in his circle. Everybody thinks he’s whining just because they all like to think his points are trivial. Personally, though, I do find that more often than not, such charges of being thin skinned or too whiny are actually nothing more than veiled attempts to defend bad behavior. I might add that this is sort of a hippy thing to do — justifying bad behavior in this way. And, it being a passive sort of thing, it lends itself to female misbehavior. In other words, while you see plenty of men do that, it really fits into female politics even better. (So, perhaps his wife is being a little passive-aggressive?)
We live in a very rude society in this day and age in which people routinely mistreat each other. While, I, myself, quite frequently take a “when in Rome” attitude, it still doesn’t change the nature of the behavior. And, the reason he is wondering if he should take lessons is because this way he can just exactly know what the rules are and not have to be so careful so that he is not always over shooting his duty all the time (and thus be less whiny and more socially correct when he does “whine”).
Re letter two -
When did being polite and courteous become pathological?
Maybe when they stopped teaching “citizenship” in schools and replaced it with “self-esteem”?
You sound like a gentleman to me. Your wife should appreciate that and get off your back.
We’d all be better off if there were more “pathologically polite” people and fewer self-entitled jerks. I miss public civility.
For the polite man. Just move to the south and you’ll fit in much better. It is perfectly acceptable to be a southern gentleman and 100% man. In my family it’s a requirement.
I am just like the polite man. I would suggest to him reading No More Mr. Nice Guy by Dr. Glover, that book helped me a lot. You may find it applies to you. It is not at all about being “not nice”, but rather, being assertive, confident, not apologizing for yourself, etc.
I don’t think it’s society, it’s something, but for me I’ve just always been like that. But to disagree with some responders, it’s not OK if it’s bothering you at all. There is being a gentleman and polite, and then there is the extent that we go, which may have its roots in something else.
For the overly polite man:
Dale Carnegie classes are great for building self confidence.
(As are the Marine Corps and a black belt in Karate, but the commitment is a bit higher.)
I hold doors for people and I don’t find it much trouble to move out of the way of the inattentive/distracted/oblivious in the mall.
It would still, after more than fifty years, be more than I could do to deliberately be rude. Some conditioning is too strong to overcome. (Thanks Mom)
Helen, I object to your categorizing the second poster as having a problem with “manliness” because he has internalized some message about how he isn’t supposed to be assertive. I am a woman and I have interalized the same message, is that somehow more okay because I am a woman? I just don’t see why this had to be framed in a gender based way. Lots of people are encouraged by society to take up less space, regardless of gender.
To me it sounds like he is overly concerned with how other people percieve him. WHy does he care if some stranger he brushes on the sidewalk thinks he is rude? He probably wasn’t rude, they might not even have noticed. He needs Stop worrying about what other people think of him and worry about what HE thinks of HIMSELF.
Well, since I wrote the second letter, perhaps I should clarify some things.
First, the whineyness was a reference to the late Dr. Ellis (who famously likened neurosis and whineyness). It was intended tongue-in-cheek.
Likewise, the “rudeness lesson” was not serious, but jokes like that don’t transmit will over email. Oh well.
My main problem seems to be that I have an unreasonable problem with people thinking I’m a jerk when I’m not. I don’t mind people thinking I’m a jerk when I’m trying to be one, but I don’t like people to misperceive my actions. This manifests in behavior that is too accomodating of other people, while holding my own needs as too unimportant to worry about. Basically, I’m letting the ill-informed opinions of other people run my life. I ought to convert to be a Democrat.
Or I could just suck it the heck up and live my life. Maybe I’ll convert to stoicism instead.
I’ve been like this since before I even met my wife, so I’m pretty sure it’s not Dr. Helen’s second suggestion (thankfully, as I have neither the time nor the money to spend talking with some guy in a suit about how my mother didn’t hug me enough, or hugged me too much, or whatever). It just seems worse lately, because it always seems worse when I get worn out. As you parents out there know, while nothing brings quite as much joy to your life as a new child, nothing wears you out like one either. So I guess I’ll just have to live with it until I can relax again– which should happen sometime in 2031, by which time the little one will be all grown up and moved out and not in need of financial support.
Finally, I’ll have to defend my wife here. She’s not kvetching about me not being a man, and she’s not on my back about it. She just doesn’t like to see me beating myself up over something I have no control over. (ie: the perception other people have of me)
Anyway, thanks for the advice, Dr. Helen. I’ve requested two of Dr. Ellis’ books from my local library. Sounds like some RET is what I really need.
Hi Greg,
Thanks very much for writing in and clarifying a few things. I do think that you will find Ellis’s books informational and perhaps find some suggestions in them for how to turn your self-imposed criticism of your behavior around. My recommendations are “How to Refuse to Make Yourself Miserable about Anything” and “How to Make Yourself Happy and Remarkably Less Disturbable” although honestly, many of his books repeat themselves so if the two you ordered are different, they will probably be fine. Try some of the exercises in the books in your daily life, I think you will find them helpful. Thanks very much for your letter.
Letter two.
I love politeness and consideration in a gentlemen. What bothers me is the indeciscivness that I see in many men (and women)because they don’t want to appear rude.
Men who wouldn’t say no if their lives depended on it or disagree with the most reprehensible ideas or opinions.
There are gracious ways to say no, to disagree or just make a decision.
You aren’t pleasing anyone by being a yes man or door mat.
Several folks have been convincing with their excellent comments about letter two. I reacted most strongly to the part that said he crowded his wife over, which struck me as problematic.
When people have to cross paths and a person defers to those coming the other way, that’s fine. Inconveniencing yourself for the safety and comfort of others is a nice thing to do. I acknowledge the possibility that the man’s wife is in fact expecting him to act in a rude or aggressive way and berating him for ordinary social graces.
But that crowding his wife thing just stuck in my head, y’know?
The Big Lebowski: Isn’t that what makes a man?
The Dude: Mmm, sure. That and a pair of testicles.
Stop being so damned concerned with how others perceive you. In an effort to avoid any misconception of rudeness you have become something much, much worse.
“you don’t please anybody by being a doormat.”
Depends on whether the other person needs you to be a doormat.
In “What Men Want, What Women Want”, the author provides studies showing that some women will try like hell to make a guy a doormat, to see if they succeed. If they do, they leave.
I expect it’s annoying to have to undergo the quarterly macho check over some meaningless subject which is suddenly the center of the universe and the guy is wrong about it.
Excessive concern about what others think is unfortunate. It gives those others power over you. The condition is beyond being cured by admonitions to buck up and be a man.
I have a seventeen year old son who behaves much like Greg (second letter). I find his over anxious need to flatten himself, make himself “disappear” in order to give extra space to other people a bit pathological and deserving of a closer scrutiny. For him, it goes together with low self-esteem and a certain fear of people. He has been to counseling but the behaviour persists. I’m pleased that he is polite and considerate, but when it is too much consideration, I’m afraid he is feeling less worthy than others to occupy a space. I used to be like that when I was young and terribly shy and I know today that it was a very bad start for life. People respond positively to assertiveness, and being overly-solicitous of other people may give them the impression that the person is cringing. No one has much respect for the cringing person.
On the other side, there are the roller-coasters, rolling ahead mindlessly oblivious to anyone. Just the other day I was walking with my 7 year old daughter side by side, not occupying more than half the breadth of a sidewalk. A very finely dressed sixty-ish woman holding a large bag with a metal buckle on the front was walking towards us. We drew a bit closer and to the side as she closed in on us, but still she bumped her bag against my daughter’s arm, enough to cause a bruise to appear later. There was no need for that to happen as more than half of the breadth of the sidewalk easily allowed her to pass us within comfortable distance. I realized she was walking right in the middle of the sidewalk and simply kept on walking, as though we were invisible. Most people, coming face to face usually side step slightly and politely away from each other.
I will always prefer the too polite person over the roller-coaster.
Nothing has cured me of being ashamed to be assertive faster than having two boys with Asperger’s Syndrome. Everywhere we go I get dirty looks from people who see my older son lolling around on the floor and kicking, and my younger son yelling out “PENIS!” at the top of his lungs. They don’t realize that it is an accomplishment for them just to be in the room, that I’ve had to pick my battles and decided that the rolling or the language was not the most important thing to work on today.
The hardest thing about it is that 15 years ago I would have been the one giving the dirty looks and thinking to herself, “Why doesn’t that woman control her children?” So I know for a fact that there are people out there thinking about me that way. That I also realize they’re immature little pr*cks like I was doesn’t seem to help though.
Helen,
Why do you think that men who do dishes aren’t masculine? I say that’s a very outrageous idea.
I love that Dr. Helen has to blame women’s equality for one man’s difficulty asserting himself. It *must* be the feminist conspiracy that seeped into his brain through soap bubbles and fabric softener when he started helping his wife with her second shift of housework. (Note that Dr. Helen’s not really concerned about the double workload the women have long bore, but just the men who now work for pay and chip in around the house, as their wives have done for decades.) No agenda here at all, Mrs. Schlafly.
Men doing dishes and watching their own children?!?! This gender confusion must be stopped, before you know it women are going to want to become doctors…..
Oh, the HORROR of men washing dishes and spending time with their own children. Why is it that when women do the dishes, they’re doing their wifely duty, but when men do the dishes, they’re graciously “helping out” and “emasculating” themselves?? GROW UP. If a sink is full of YOUR dirty dishes, YOU WASH THEM. Same goes for YOUR OWN CHILDREN. When the women spend time with them, it’s parenting. When the father spends time with them, he’s “babysitting”. Surprise! You’re both parents. Dr. Helen, please, enlighten me, as to how men can get back in touch with their masculinity by behaving like spoiled children.
I never said that men shouldn’t do dishes; I just said that men shouldn’t be doormats. I thought that feminism was about not being a doormat, but judging from these comments some women are perfectly happy in a world filled with doormats, so long as the doormats have penises.
If the guy’s elbowing his wife out of the way of strangers, I wouldn’t call him excessively polite or a doormat. No wonder the poor woman wants him to assert himself with strangers.
I do most of the dishes and laundry.
It’s a dirty little secret. Guys get a lot of credit for doing things they can do with half their brain asleep and the other half thinking about something else.
Hmmm…I read Greg’s e-mail thinking that I do that all the time. And then I realized that I learned it when I was around 10 or 11. I used to be A LOT like my Aspie son. I’d dance down the middle of the sidewalk like no one else was there because I honestly hadn’t given them a thought. Once my mom got it through my head that those were PEOPLE not THINGS in my way, I started steering WAY away from the people because it is much easier for me than dealing with them.
And congrats on your new baby!
These days, when my family walks on our local greenway, my dh tells me to hurry up and stay with the family and my sons (our Aspie and our 2nd grader) to pay attention to other people.
Hang in there, Greg, and find a happy medium that doesn’t involve pushing your wife to the side…she’s as tired as you are.