Ask Dr. Helen: Can a Man Be Raped by a Woman?
Here is one man’s story — let’s call him Mike — (other identifying data has also been changed) about a rape that happened to him over 17 years ago that he still can’t forget:
Dr. Helen, I’ve recently been coming to grips with the fact that I was raped by a woman. While doing online research, I happened upon your blog and read several entries, most notably the relevant “Can Women be Predators?”
If you don’t mind, I’d like to share my story with you.
I am now an editor at a small book company and an activist but in my earlier life I was a Marine.
On a Friday night in 1990, after hanging out with a friend for several hours at a club — said friend disappeared for the night and left his female friend (stranger to me) without a ride and about 35 miles from home. I was plastered, and not going to drive as the club was next to a motel. She asked for a ride and I offered to drive her home in the morning as she was about 6 months pregnant, but I was going to have to get a motel room for the evening as I was drunk and not driving in such a state. We decided to split the cost of the room and both agreed that sleeping was all that was going to take place. She was pregnant and also not my type in the slightest. At the time, I thought I was in love with a woman attending a local college. I seem to recall we even had separate beds.
I woke up about 2 hours later — still destroyed by the alcohol — to find my clothes removed from the waist down and the girl on top of me wailing like a banshee and quite roughly enjoying herself. She had apparently brought me to erection — not hard as I’m one of those men who can hold one for hours, awake or asleep, sober or drunk. She told me everything was okay and to go back to sleep and despite my best effort to the contrary, I was unable to move or speak coherently in my still very inebriated and half-conscious state and did fall asleep again quickly.
After most of my drunken stupor wore off around 7 am or so, I awoke again to find her on top of me — this time with a more menacing attitude as she knew I was in a better position to respond physically this time. I had began to wiggle out from under her (taking care not to hurt her baby) when she sternly warned me to “be quiet” and “not be forceful” and made it clear that she would cry rape if I tried to stop it. I was stunned to say the least and not sure how to respond. I could easily have thrown her across the room and off of me, but was concerned for her child and took her threat very, very seriously. She said it so easily that I doubt I was her first.
I weighed my options for a moment and came to the conclusion that a sober, 6 or 7-month pregnant college student of 24 was far more likely to be believed by the authorities than a drunk 19-year old Marine in the best shape of his life. I frequented that club a lot and I’m sure several people saw me leave with her. I was pretty much f*cked — in more than one way — at that point.
I complied by lying still while she continued to warn and threaten me and she eventually orgasmed again and got off me. I don’t know how long the second rape transpired as I tried to disconnect my mind from that scene. Further, I have no idea how many times she had actually raped me that night (at least twice), but I was extremely sore for a few days. As a small favor, she turned out to be disease free.
I’ve always tried to pretend it was nothing or play it off like an uncomfortable memory of a wild night that ended weird whenever the memory surfaced.
After 17 years of pretending, the floodgates opened this week (thanks to a wonderful woman I work with) and it has been extremely difficult to deal with as my denial was swept away. I have a lot of counseling in my future in order to heal after the band-aid was ripped away.
This was very difficult to admit, not only personally, but to a very dear friend who has been there before. As you know, rape is about power and control. She had power over me that night, even though I could have easily thrown her across the room and off me. Her pregnancy and threat of jail against me were the only weapons she needed to have her way that night.
I spend a great deal of time on civil liberties issues fighting for those without a voice through my publications working on national coalitions with the ACLU and tons of other organization leaders spanning the spectrum from left to right. It is very hard to see myself in the role of victim now, given how much time I devote to advocacy efforts.
Thank you for listening and thank you for what you do.
When I read Mike’s story, I realized the horrible psychological predicament that this rapist put Mike in. If he turned her down or pushed her away, she could call rape and as he points out, a pregnant woman would no doubt be believed by authorities and his career as a Marine would have been over. The psychological trauma this caused him must have been excruciating. Can you imagine being blackmailed this way? I know of another man who had a similar event happen to him as a teenager, but he never did anything about it or reported the abuse.
Why?
Is rape okay just because the victim is male?
No, of course it isn’t. Men rape other men, and some women are stronger than men and can force them to have sex.
However, the fact is that this guy was strong enough have stopped her, which in real rape she – and it usually is a she – cannot stop him. This is abuse, and appalling behaviour, but it isn’t rape.
To be consistent, Heather Mac Donald and most of those commenting on my thread here, ought to say that he was asking for it by getting so drunk and agreeing to share the motel room.
But I imagine they won’t.
So just because he was stronger it isn’t rape? Rape is about power and control. She obviously had the control with the blackmail which indeed it was. Power with the fact she had a child in her. Did he put himself in a horrible situation? Yes but that doesn’t change the fact that yes he was raped. You are looking at this from a feminist way, obviously you have a strong case of penis envy. I bet if he had said he knocked her flat you would have had something to say to that too.
If a women gets drunk and she wakes up with a man on top of her who has slit his wrist and tells her if you move I will tell the cops you tried to kill me
1. Mary Jackson
Is rape okay just because the victim is male?
No, of course it isn’t. Men rape other men, and some women are stronger than men and can force them to have sex.
However, the fact is that this guy was strong enough have stopped her, which in real rape she – and it usually is a she – cannot stop him. This is abuse, and appalling behaviour, but it isn’t rape.
To be consistent, Heather Mac Donald and most of those commenting on my thread here, ought to say that he was asking for it by getting so drunk and agreeing to share the motel room.
But I imagine they won’t.
So Mary, if a man and woman got drunk, decided to get a hotel room together, and both agreed to sleep (and/or passed out) in separate beds, and then the woman woke up with the man on top of her and penetrating her, committing forceful intercourse (non consensual)…
…because the woman got drunk and agreed to share a hotel room with the man, she was asking for it?
These are cases where a man or a woman is so drunk and incapacitated they can’t fight back.
The definition of rape:
rape1 [reyp] Show IPA noun, verb, raped, rap·ing.
noun
1.
the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2.
any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.
3.
statutory rape.
4.
an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.
5.
Archaic. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.
verb (used with object)
6.
to force to have sexual intercourse.
7.
to plunder (a place); despoil.
8.
to seize, take, or carry off by force.
it was rape..physical strength has nothing to do with it..she threathed to cry rape and blackmail him? and reply 544 Jennifer..going by your reply let hope you get raped someday..that would be justice :]
Zero sympathy, Blunderbrain. Get plastered, then get a hotel room with a total stranger, and later you’re ‘raped’.
Stupid people deserve the pain they afflict upon themselves.
“Zero sympathy, Blunderbrain. Get plastered, then get a hotel room with a total stranger, and later you’re ‘raped’.
Stupid people deserve the pain they afflict upon themselves.”
and your a dumbass troll with nothing better to do than go onto serious sites like this and start talking shit , so with that you can stop comming to these sites now , love redbone jesus bwahahahah
Mary Jackson,
Bull. It is rape. You are leaving out the blackmail angle. If he had tried to stop her, she would have yelled rape and you know good and well that a pregnant woman would have this guy thrown in jail so fast his head would spin and his military career would be over. In this case, the woman had more strength and power than the man in this situation. His choices were limited–she forced him to have sex with her when he did not want to. Yes, this guy was being a good Samaritan to get a room with this woman. He had drunk too much and did not want to drive and this woman needed a place for the night. This does not warrant blackmail and rape. If they had agreed to have sex in the room, went there and then he backed out and she had sex with him without the blackmail, no it would not be rape–it would be as you say, abusive and appalling behavior– but that is not what happened here. If you say that it is not rape than the same standard should be applied to women. If they go to a hotel room with a man and are forced to have sex just as this man was, no rape charges should be filed. Note this is not what I am saying is correct–you are with your analogy. Or perhaps you believe that only men should be charged with rape no matter what?
What a b****, abusing the protection of raped women like that. I feel bad for the child that she was going to have. And I fully understand the anger he must have been feeling.
That being said, get over it already. It’s been 17 years and you did nothing at the time. You’re a man an should not react as women do – crying and feeeeling so bad, that’s the women’s domain. You could have pressed charges long time ago, now all you can, and should, do is to get over it.
So being pathetic and crying is women’s domain? You have some obvious issues with gender, specifically misogyny. The question is not whether you will perpetrate domestic violence, it’s “when.” That contempt has got to find an outlet. Get therapy before it’s too late.
exactly …..
Bullshize.
I doubt the story, and if it were true this guy is the leader of the Metrosexual pack. He forgot to add that she backhanded him a few times while she was scaring him into silence.
Utter crap.
smarty , for a smart guy your pretty retarded arent you ? let me ask you this ….. has your parents sheltered you most of your life or are you just that much of a troll to not look at reality and see it for what it truely is ? wow get a life and stop being so retarded , but let me bring up the parts of the story that interested me the most…… did she not say that if he refused or tried to refuse that she would call the cops and have him in prison for the rest of his life ? and what about cases about girls using the legal system and shit to get what they want because lets face it guys….women are better reverred as better believable in the cases of rape , they can say that the men they raped was raping them and if they didnt comply or become more submissive then that would have happened so in that manner , quit comming to serious sites like this and imposing that only men are the rapists and not women cause it does happen rather you like to believe it or not so suck it smarty … suck it real hard bitch
Men can’t be raped. Metro-sexuals yes but men, no. I had a situation similar to “Mike’s”. I took a 100-mile motorcycle trip to a friend’s wedding. I must have caught a really bad cold on the ride down because early in the reception I started feeling achy and feverish. One of the bridesmaids asked me if I was going out with everyone after the reception. I responded no because I wasn’t feeling too good and shortly left for my hotel room. Twenty minutes later there’s a knock at the door and it’s the bridesmaid asking if I’d changed my mind. I said no to which she made her way into my room, jumped me and had her way with me for about an hour only to get out of bed saying she had to get away from me because I was burning up. I figure my temperature was about 101 or 102 even without the physical exertion. Was I raped? It may have been rude but I wouldn’t call it rape.
dude face the facts, you were raped, and that could have killed you.
in your condition you could have died, you needed rest and a doctors medication.
Does anyone really believe this. There is zero chance this happened. Only a fool would believe this. The only way a woman can rape a man is if she straps one on and ties him up.
wow you can just stop there , you just totally failed lol anyways yes a man can be raped and no she didnt turn into a dominatrix for it to happen lol lets look at your case huh ? okay lets do !!!!! see your problem stems from being sheltered most of your life and looking towards the fantasy that men are the dominant force on the planet when really you just cant deal with reality and truth , you hate the truth , you despise it … you think you have a conception of truth but you dont … you really dont man its times like this that i feel like im the only smart person on this planet lol so tinman stop comming to these sites for a big fat laugh and get back to doing your middle school algebra before i tell your mommy that you werent doing your homework and thus ground you to your room and make you do your own laundry … dumb ass white kid …… anyways just go back to doing your middle school algebra and then you can play your videogames lol the grown-ups are talking now … butt out
Helen, I think the belief is not so much that only women are rape victims, but that only men are rapists. A scenario like the one described is certainly rape. Gender don’t enter into it.
Trey
Leaving aside the weird and disgusting circumstances, this is mildly absurd, to be honest. It’s not really the same thing at all.
Rape must surely include physical force or threat of physical force. That is why women raping men is virtually a non-issue – most men, including this one, are stronger than most women.
In any case, even if she had claimed to be raped, it would have been her word against his with no supporting evidence. She had stayed in the room with him, which, in the eyes of Mac Donald etc means she was up for it. A prosecution would have been thrown out before it got to court.
so its not rape if i threaten to her parents that i will tell her parents that she is doing drugs or had an abortion or has slept around with a hundred guys, when she did not?
clearly you havent done your homework
Given the unsympathetic responses here (Trey excepted) it’s no wonder men don’t talk about rape. “Does anyone believe this? This is mildly absurd, Men can’t be raped.” Listen to yourselves. He didn’t fight back hard enough? This is what they used to tell women. I realize that men are not women but they are human and they have feelings. Apparently, no one here thinks they do. Men deserve what they get, even other men believe that. With attitudes like this, no wonder nothing ever changes.
I was hammered one time and woke up to a woman giving me oral sex. I woke up, looked down and then went right back to sleep! So, it is possible his story is true.
Definition of rape (Merriam Webster):
“unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will usually of a female or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent.”
I don’t think what happened was rape, though it may count as sexual assault.
> Definition of rape (Merriam Webster):
> “unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly
> or under threat of injury against the will usually of a female or with a
> person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent.”
> I don’t think what happened was rape, though it may count as sexual assault.
This is amazing. even the definition of rape in the English language presupposes that men are at least partially immune to being raped. I am a man. I was raped. Not by a woman but by another man. He raped by and even sucked me. I was severely drunk, and probably drugged. But I didn’t press charges. Because of this attitude. The only people that know are my close family(parents, and wife). And when I told my parents they only asked one thing, “Do you want to press charges?” after that they never brought it up. Nor did they connect being raped on a summer trip to being depressed and doing poorly in school the following year. Instead I was “just slacking off” and I needed to “buckle down” and stop “goofing off.” Of course if I were a woman who had been raped any psychologist would tell you that counseling would be a viable way to turn around my school performance. And most parents would consider it long before they thought their daughter was “wasting their money” in college. I will probably NEVER tell anyone else in my life. Except perhaps my daughter if it seems prudent and relevant. But even that is a long shot.
He didn’t fight back hard enough? This is what they used to tell women.
Big, big difference – if a woman fights a rapist he can hurt her even more, or even kill her. That is why women often don’t fight back. Except in very rare cases, a man can fight off a woman pretty easily.
Of course “Mike” didn’t deserve what happened. The woman behaved appallingly. But it wasn’t rape.
A Dane said “You’re a man an should not react as women do – crying and feeeeling so bad, that’s the women’s domain. You could have pressed charges long time ago, now all you can, and should, do is to get over it.”
==================================
THAT is the problem with society – that men are now supposed to let their feelings show! “Be a man! Don’t cry!” a boy’s father says to him. If he feels he was raped, then he was! Rape is not sexual; it’s about power. And that is what she was using against him. She could have masturbated; instead, she chose to play a power trip on that poor guy knowing he wouldn’t do a thing against her.
It is striking that rape law, and the standards and biases in its enforcement, were the weapons used by this sociopath to force this man ultimately to submit to this terrorizing event of abuse.
I know. There’s a special place reserved in Hell for me. But the whole time I was reading this I kept thinking, “Dear Penthouse.”
I’m sorry Helen, but this is silly. Men ARE supposed to be different than women. I don’t want to see men crying and sharing their feelings….I hate the whole metrosexual thing, it’s part of what is wrong with the whole landscape…we need men to be men…
I think the guy was clearly raped if she mounted him while he was unconscious. But the operative coercion after that point, seems to have been blackmail, not physical force.
Should we draw a distinction between blackmailing someone into sex and raping them? I would suggest that we should. As my Daddy always taught me, “If you can’t blackmail someone into sex, son, then what CAN you blackmail them into?”
“She had apparently brought me to erection — not hard as I’m one of those men who can hold one for hours, awake or asleep, sober or drunk.”
How do you hold an erection for hours? By counting to like a kazillion? Making a mental yearly shopping list?
Helen, don’t forget … “He asked for it. After all the little gigolo got all liquored up, even!”
Mary, so I guess a man who could have been charged with rape himself (and likely convicted) wasn’t forcibly put into that situation. Does force only have to be physical force? Hmmmm you put a gun 6 inches from my head and that is not “physical” force, but it is force. Also during the first time it can certainly be argued that the man was incapable of valid consent. If a man had done the same thing to a woman (took advantage of her while she was drunk) with no other physical force, everyone on here would call it rape.
So rape only counts when there is physical force or the threat of injury present? Psychological coercion isn’t enough? I guess that means all those male bosses who demand sex as the price of continued employment aren’t guilty of rape at all since no threat of violence is present. And rape victims to be forced to prove not only lack of consent but the threat of violent injury in order to get a conviction? Good luck with that.
“She had apparently brought me to erection — not hard as I’m one of those men who can hold one for hours, awake or asleep, sober or drunk.”
lol, ok dude, we believe you. This isn’t the Penthouse forum.
Sometimes a mouse can get the better of a cat, sometimes a freshman can pummel a senior, sometimes a 4-cylinder can beat a V-8. And sometimes a man can get raped by a woman. But let’s not let statistical aberrations cloud the obvious – rape is committed by men, on women.
It’s rape only if she’s ugly! (A little humor.) Men can’t get raped. What a pathetic story if true.
“Poor guy”. *sheesh* The guy is a putz. At best he’s a “victim” of his own stupid behavior. The Marine Corps is a better place without him.
Although a woman forcing herself on a man under threat of reporting a rape is rare, it does happen–it’s even in the Bible.
In Genesis 39, Joseph is sold into slavery by his brothers, but his master Potiphar leaves and puts Joseph in charge of his household. Potiphar’s wife repeatedly asks Joseph to “lie with” her, but Joseph refuses, until she grabs his cloak, and Joseph is forced to run away naked. Potiphar returns, and his wife uses the cloak to accuse Joseph of seducing her, and Potiphar throws Joseph into prison.
The Marine in this story probably feared the accusation of raping a pregnant woman, and his life being ruined, and didn’t have the courage of Joseph in the Bible. But seriously, how many men would in that situation?
Um… she forced him to have sex with her, against his will. I do not care much for legal, 50-cent word definitions of rape, but this situation certainly fits what I would call rape.
Dr. Helen is right – reform is needed. I agree that falsely reporting rape, or sexual assault, or sexual harassment; ought to merit the same sort of scrutiny and punishment as valid charges.
Guys, see how much sympathy you get when some woman slaps a false rape charge against you (or even a false sexual harrassment charge). Even if the evidence solidly points to that fact that she lied and that you’re innocent, even if there was no possible way at all that you and her could have been in a situation that even remotely supports her lie, you’re still screwed.
And for those of you knuckleheads who are being callous over this Marine’s plight: If you got caught up in a similar situation as that Marine, you’d get absolutely no sympathy from me, ever.
To the unsympathetic:
If you think the lifetime legal injury that would have been done to “Mike” if he’d fought back is something to scoff at, you really don’t have much of a clue. I realize it’s hard to get one’s head around the idea of a man being raped or abused by a woman, but if you think for a few minutes before having a juvenile emotional reaction, you’d see how much the law favours women. The woman who assaulted “Mike” is a predator, plain and simple. There are men on sex offender registries for their whole lives labelled as rapists and pedophiles for much less. Injury by physical force is not the only “real” injury. I think I could deal with the threat of temporary physical force more readily than the threat of being forever labelled a rapist.
Rape must surely include physical force or threat of physical force.
If the man had been two years younger, it would have been considered rape, whatever he said and did, because he would have been 17. Is a 17-year-old stronger than a six-months-pregnant woman? Most likely. BUT he is legally powerless.
Women can’t be rapists, you know, like blacks can’t be racist.
Yeah, because black people really can’t hate white people who use the N word.
–
any GUY who has said that this isn’t rape, the guy is a wuss, or that this is fake, (Hell is worth it for this comment) then I hope you are raped by a woman. I hope she rides until you bleed, you insensitive pricks.
a female friend of mine was raped when she was 11, and since then, she and I have broken our friendship, mainly because of all the men she’s raped as revenge. how do i know she’s done this? her last boyfriend told me. she almost killed him in the process as well.
I know a guy who suffered something similar, in that he woke up in his bed to find one of his housemates on top of him. She didn’t make any threats that I’m aware of, but she used him for sex without his consent: pretty much the definition of rape. I don’t think he made a big deal of it – what was he going to say? Who could he complain to?
To make it even worse, she became pregnant from the encounter and so not only does he support the child, he’s stuck with this horrible woman in his life for the next few decades.
wow, the majority of the folks on here are appalling, and their attitudes are repulsive. Blackmail isn’t force? I’d say a black eye is easier to recover from then a ruined career and reputation.
I do agree, this might not raise to “rape” but its clearly a sexual assault. But I believe that it doesn’t really matter, because he feels violated, his perception is this was rape – which means he needs help in overcoming that.
Now, if this woman had just been in the Army and done this to a prisoner in Gitmo, I can guarantee the attitudes among many here would be totally different.
This is nothing new. Joseph, Potiphar’s wife….. any of this sound familiar?
For those of you who say idiotic things like “if a woman fights a rapist he can hurt her even more…”, let us consider the following scenario.
Mary Mae is a young lady of twenty years whose mother and father own a plantation in the South in 1845. Mary Mae decides that she would like to have sex with one of her slaves; let’s call him Thomas. She goes to him and tells him that if he does not grant her sexual favors, she will tell her father that he sexually assaulted her. He knows that she will be believed, and he knows that if she makes the accusation, he will be tortured and killed.
The problem that Thomas faces is that he is in a legal system with imperfect fact-finding. The word of Mary Mae is given undue weight, and he is not given quite enough process.
Does anyone doubt that the coercion of a slave is rape?
Now let’s tweak it slightly, and say that it’s the 1930′s, and the characters involved are Tom Robinson and Mayella Ewell. Let’s say that instead of walking away, Tom Robinson rightly fears that even though he can expect at least some greater measure of justice than Thomas did vis a vis Mary Mae, nonetheless justice is stacked against him and people will try to lynch him if he does not give into Mayella’s request. Let’s say that he sleeps with her out of this fear.
How is this any different than the Thomas-Mary Mae situation? It is only a difference of degree.
Now let us say that instead of a racially discriminatory justice system, we are dealing with a society where certain types of people are *still* nonetheless given more credibility than others. Let us say that we are in a society where people who accuse others of sexual misconduct generally have the upper hand, particularly when they are female. Let us say that we are in a society where pregnant women are generally believed not to be the type of people who have sexually predatory instincts. And let us also say that the victim’s entire economic livelihood depends on his reputation and his conduct record, and that he is in an utterly unforgiving environment where things like parking tickets come up at promotion times. Let us also say that the victim in this case is only 17 years old, and that he can rightly expect people to make fun of his developing sense of masculinity *even if he does come forward and tell the truth* (though I don’t know why in the world we might think that….).
Once again, is there any real difference here? What I see is a perpetrator using the accidental characteristics of society’s machinery to her advantage.
Just in case I’m not making my case quite clear enough, let us go even further back to the Middle Ages, or at least to 1600′s New England — some sort of society where the patriarchy is alive and well. Let us say there is a (cue evil music) SEXUALLY PREDATORY MAN, and let us also posit that for social reasons, the man in question cannot reasonably hurt or kill his female victim. Perhaps she is the mayor’s wife. I don’t know.
Anyway, let us assume that instead of using force, he uses the threat that he will destroy her reputation in society by casting her as an unchaste whore. And let us imagine that in this society, such allegations would be believed without question due to the instinctual misogyny that such a society possesses. To avoid shame and degradation, to avoid losing her children, being cast out of her home, and forced to earn a living on the streets, this lady gives in to the man’s social blackmail.
How is this any different?
Recall that Lucretia’s virtue was not taken by force. It was not fear of death or injury that caused her to give in to Sextus Tarquinius. He tried that road and got nowhere with it. No, at the end of things, what he had to do was threaten to kill her and leave her in bed with a naked slave….. in the end, he leveraged her fear of shame.
I also find, on the part of some of the other commenters, a disturbing lack of understanding (or knowledge) of reproductive biology. It’s almost as though you’re proud to display your ignorance..
Oh, well… From reading the “enlightened” responses of some of the other commenters here, I guess in our society, which was supposed to guarantee equality of potential for all, with openness and understanding, without prejudice, that:
- only men can rape women
- only men can assault women (sexually or physically or mentally)
- only men can sexually harass women.
Thanks for the clue, folks.
There is a similar account in Genesis 39 concerning Joseph and Potiphar’s wife.
There are some situations where a man finds himself with no good options. Either he resists, in which case he will likely be charged with rape, or he doesn’t resist in which case he is raped. This fact puts one in a particular bind in as much as that since he could have resisted, he is somewhat complicit in his own rape. That itself is probably the source of a great deal of guilt. The heroic standard men are supposed to live up to is that of Joseph, resisting even though it means imprisonment and the complete loss of his reputation. That’s a tough standard.
The situation Mike was in is partly his own fault, but that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t rape. Being stupid doesn’t mean you deserve to be abused. His situation is similar to the nothing but bad choices situation that women can find themselves in, where if they don’t resist there is a good chance that they won’t be believed, but if they do resist they’ll just get hurt worse and maybe killed. No good choices.
I’m sorry, Helen. That reads as if it was straight out of penthouse forum, circa 20 years ago.
From a sixty-something male POV, for all I know it may be 100% true. It wouldnt surprise me in the least as I’ve run across several predatory women like the one described, and anyone who doubts this could happen should pay more attention to the news. It aint ALL about 30 something schoolteachers and their male students.
But the guy should have been over it, by now. I was actually raped at threat of knifepoint by some guy I was stupid enough to get into a car with from a DC bar in the early sixties. I got over that, at least as far as I can tell.. and have had nothing but hetero relationships since. I have no overt bigotries against gay men, have brushed off advances with a polite but sharp response, but I do the same with women whom I dont care to encourage.
Some of them, though, flatter me… no matter how ‘assertive’ they are.
If I was that guy, I would have written it off as a life lesson and been done with it. I know women who have done the same. But especially from a male view, it should be far easier.
You have pointed out numerous times that women’s thought processes and emotions are wired differently from men’s.
That is the whole point. I know women who have done the same, without being devastated for life.
Men are being treated as underclass “people” by the law and ridiculed in the media. But real men should not complaint as victims. Like Roman plebeians they should step aside. Mister bin Laden will solve all present problems created by women seeking power and power only.
Helen, you sure have managed to attract a bunch of losers to this post. I suspect that are the same folks who scream bloody murder when a male high school coach diddles with one of his students, but if the female math teacher beds a boy, it’s something to snicker at. Thank goodness for the few sane minds here.
I am sure if, Dr. Helen< you had removed genders from the story, people would line up solidly behind the victim. The comments prove the point though. Most people only see rape as penetration, and the perp is the one doing that. It’s a crock, but there it is. The comments about how this wouldn’t happen to a real man are also a crock. Hate to tell you this guys, but ANY woman can scream rape, and you will be face down in handcuffs fast enough to make your head spin. The police may determine later that she was lying, but that won’t take away the night or nights in jail proving your innocence, IF you can. People who think that is impossible, have never been close to it… I’ve been the guy to bail out a friend with the psycho ex-girlfriend who was blackmailing, and screamed it.
The DA dropped it when we could conclusively prove he was elsewhere.
Just because women can use soft-power to do this, doesn’t mean it is different*. The guy has figured out, no doubt, how hard it is to get any services for this. Hopefully he has friends to back him up over the long haul.
*yes, it’s a different scenario to take advantage of a man, but, it is also a different kind of wound. In effect you take away his manhood for some amount of time, because all his strength and power can be co-opted. He has no answer for that. Unlike a woman who will get sympathy from almost everyone, a man gets derision from many of his peers, and most women won’t believe him if he says anything about it.
I think the guy was clearly raped if she mounted him while he was unconscious. But the operative coercion after that point, seems to have been blackmail, not physical force.
This is where I’m at. I think the first one was clearly rape, as he was physical unable to fight back. The second one was a little odd. I’m not sure what to call it. It sounds like a sexual harrassment type situation, which I personally wouldn’t consider rape. If you agree to sleep with your boss because you are worried about losing your job, is that rape? I don’t think so. It’s not cool, but I don’t think that’s rape.
I will say there may be more of this type of situation then you would think. I know a guy who had a child by this woman and he claims that she got him drunk and had sex with him to have a child by him. We always thought it was odd/suspect, but maybe it’s not. Food for thought, at any rate.
I believe Mike’s story, but the answer to it is really, get over it. And I do not mean that in a condesending way, but more of a why are you torturing yourself over this? Yes it was rape, but it is just as much as being in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong woman.
And of course, lots and lots of alcohol.
There is a lesson in all of this Mike, avoid these circumstances in the future. Now would I say this to a young girl in high school or a boy who was raped, no of course not. But I am going to say it to you. You were a Marine and an adult. You got yourself in a bad situation. You survived. I am sorry Mike, but your experience is not quite as traumatic as what many women have to face or man on man rape. I am sorry, but I am not weeping about your “Prince of Tides” experience. Deal with it, let that scab heal and don’t let it happen again.
Well that’s a relief, Joe. Let’s just say the same thing to all those women who made a couple of mistakes and ended up with a male predator on top of them. Really! Get over it!
Wow. Just … wow.
Setting aside whether Mike’s claim is true, some great points have been made here, concerning what constitutes rape.
* It’s forcing sex upon another person with the threat of physical force upon the victim
or
* It’s forcing sex upon another person with the theat of some action which will cause harm to the victim
So, ladies and gentlemen, what’s it to be? if it’s the first, then there have been a hell of a lot of bogus rape charges made upon men in the past. As someone commented above, every sleazy boss who demanded a quickie so that a secretary could avoid being fired, get that raise they asked for, have that expense claim signed off – every damn one of those prosecutions? Bogus. Because, like, hey, it’s not like he was going to behave like Ronnie Specter and blow her brains out with a ’45, was it?
Whether you believe Mike’s story or not, men can be raped. By women. It’s all about coercive force, and for a kid who has a bright future in the Marines that can be destroyed, along with his life as a civilian, you bet your bippy he’s been coerced.
In fact, some women believe that it’s possible for a woman to rape a man.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyce_McKinney
BTW, I for one wouldn’t call Mike a metrosexual if his story’s true. For a 19 year old he showed a precocious understanding of western culture.
This was definitely rape, and the unsympathetic responses here are puzzling. The definition Mary offers says “usually” carried out forcibly or under threat of injury. In this case, the man’s ability to use force to protect himself was thwarted by her pregnancy. He might as well have been physically restrained. His use of force would have threatened an innocent life. The definition does not rely on force, as Mary seems to imply (she obviously isn’t reading the definition carefully enough). Just because this situation was unusual does not mean it wasn’t rape.
This is one of those rare cases in which the man could not reasonably have fought off the woman. She used her pregnancy as a restraint against the man. She might as well have been holding a gun to another innocent person’s head. I can’t imagine how anyone could reasonably come to any other conclusion.
Legal definition:
“The crime of rape (or “first-degree sexual assault” in some states) generally refers to non-consensual sexual intercourse that is committed by physical force, threat of injury, or other duress. A lack of consent can include the victim’s inability to say “no” to intercourse, due to the effects of drugs or alcohol. Rape can occur when the offender and victim have a pre-existing relationship (sometimes called “date rape”), or even when the offender is the victim’s spouse.”
http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/rape.html
Note the words: “or other duress”.
If this isn’t rape then we have a huge double standard. The threat of force and an unwilling partner would be all that is needed to qualify in my opinion. Of course he could have physically stopped her when he woke up, but she threatened economic punishment(his job), not to mention his own conviction no one would believe him or fear of hurting the unborn child. Big marine raped by 6 month pregnant women….twice! SUUURE he could have come forward. This would seriously screw with anyones head and she might as well have been holding a gun to his head and it isn’t at all suprising he avoided confronting what happened to him for so long. As far as the comments for him to suck it up, because he is a man? Suppressing anger hardly makes one a man. Dealing with it constructively so he can move on and create and sustain better relationships with loved ones in his own life is harder and does.
Good Luck Mike
360 Annie: “I don’t want to see men crying and sharing their feelings…”
Then let us act like men and let’s have women go back to acting like women. Now get your butt in the kitchen.
As if all of the pain and suffering he would get at the hands of the legal system and in prison wouldn’t amount to at least a comparable level of threat of “physical force.” I think holding prison rape, among other possibilities, over someone’s head as an outcome of struggling against your actions certainly qualifies as a real threat.
You’re not particularly honest about anything on this topic, Mary, as even most of the men you constantly bitch about on PJM forums do believe that if a man screws a woman while she is entirely passed out, that that is rape. There is a difference, in most people’s minds, between people who have drunken sex, and people who have sex with those who are passed out.
Interesting commentary. I agree with Helen. This gentleman was definately raped. Maybe it would be easier for some to understand that if she held a knife to his throat.
For those of you who think there was no threat of violence/force (Mary Jackson), what do you think the police were going to use in response to her charges? She wasn’t threatening to use her own force against him. She was threatening to use the armed force of the state against him.
And no man is stupid enough to take his chances with the court when he’s being threatened with a rape charge. Innocence doesn’t matter once you’re accused.
I’ll bet this guy never helped a damsel in distress again. I know don’t let myself be alone with women or children I don’t know because of the risk of being falsely accused. Too many examples of men’s lives being ruined.
Funny thing is, I know this scenario is possible because I knew a guy in high school who lost his virginity this way. Knowing the kind of girls who hung around him, I wouldn’t put it past them either.
“When I read Mike’s story, I realized the horrible psychological predicament that this rapist put Mike in.”
I find your obsession with defining every person on the planet as a victim, regardless of how irresponsible, reckless and moronioc they are, appalling. This woman didn’t put Mike in a horrible predicament. He took care of that himself.
So he got drunk (smart!), and got a room with a total stranger (smarter!), and then something bad happened (ouch!).
Let me guess: the next day he got stoned and rode his motorcycle without a helmet and something else bad happened. Damn the ‘luck’.
Stop global whining.
Some of the comments on this discussion that make fun of “Mike” or make light of what happened to him are APPALLING. Some people have no shame and lack any sense of empathy. This guy’s only “crime” was getting plastered at a bar. I was a 19 year old once, in the Army, and I got hammered a few times as well. And it would have been my fault if I had been driving while drunk and either caused an accident or simply been pulled over and cited. Thank God I never had an experience like his. But, I can imagine the terror of his predicament. Anyone who cannot needs to check inside their cranium and in their chest cavity for a heartbeat. The first comment on the thread that men cannot be raped by women is imbecilic in its scope.
Mary Jackson,
You use the dictionary as your legal referance? Rape laws vary state to state–not with the newest version of Webster’s dictionary.
I find myself partially in the “what was he thinking” camp while also sympathizing with Mike’s situation.
Micheal E. Lopez made some pretty good analogies, and for me some commenters’ dismissive attitude because “no force was involved” seems way off the mark. No entity has greater access to, or employs it as readily, as the state. And that is precisely the force that was threatened by the pregnant woman.
“unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will usually of a female or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent.”
Ignoring the use of Webster’s as a legal reference, how do you say that based on this definition it is not rape? The fella was grossly drunk, thus not capable of valid consent, thus fitting the definition in Webster’s. Right?
Okay all you men. I’m not understanding something here. All my 66 years I have believed that the male erection is a very delicate thing – collapsing at the least bit of pyschological distress – and that many men suffer from premature ejaculation resulting in collapse. Right? Then tell me, how can a woman with a “keep IT up” on an unwilling man long enough to get what she wants? Are you saying that “fear” can cause an erection?
Some of the comments above are really stupid. It’s not rape because he could have thrown her off with one hand behind his back? Sure, and now he’s guilty of assaulting a pregnant woman. Even a drunk can string that thought together. And blackmail is different from physical force …how? If a man blackmailed a woman into having sex with him, would you say that wasn’t rape? And my personal favorite: “But let’s not let statistical aberrations cloud the obvious – rape is committed by men, on women.” Yep, let’s absolutely not let data get in the way of prejudice. That would be way too scientific.
Ok fine, we will all always do a double-take when hearing a story like the above, and of course the odds are against a woman being able to set things up so she’s able to rape a man, but you cannot hold yourself out as an intelligent human while simply refusing a priori to believe anything that falls outside your preconceptions.
In a few weeks, tens of thousands of college freshmen will be taken to auditoriums and told about how having sex with a drunk woman is rape. She is incapacitated by her voluntary use of alcohol or drugs, and having sex with her while she is to inebriated to consent is rape.
That makes perfect sense to me.
It is the height of absurdity to claim that this only applies to women. It is unjustifiable using even the most strenuous of mental gymnastics.
Trey
Poor judgment does not mean that the victim deserved to be victimized. That’s true for a woman whose drink was spiked with GHB or Rohypnol or a woman who shares a hotel room with a friend of a friend and is later raped.
Would any of those female rapists like to have my address?
The problem with extending rape laws to include anything other than the use of force or the threat of force, is that such a change would be far more useful to predatory women like the one mentioned in the letter than it would be to the men they “rape.” Imagine if she could accuse men of rape by saying they threatened to show up at her workplace and make her life hell if she didn’t have sex with them. She’d be a threat to far more than just physically fit Marines; heck, such women would probably start having any guy who so much as looked at her funny arrested.
Situations such as Mike’s receive the degree of impact we allow them to have. People DO recover from many horrible things (cf. Victor Frankl, Glenn Cunningham, John McCain) and lead good and meaningful lives. Our lives are only as ruined as we let them be.
Sioux Lady,
Exactly! Men can’t perform without some interest in performing. May I also point out that this line, “She had apparently brought me to erection — not hard as I’m one of those men who can hold one for hours, awake or asleep, sober or drunk” is a little far fetched. Ladies, does this seem likely?
I think he’s lying. The “orgasming” was icing on the cake.
Dear Hustler…
Chuy…Do you people know the difference between a war story and a fairy tale?
Fairy-tales start off “Once Upon A Time’; a war-story starts off: “This ain’ no shit. I was there…”
“Poor judgment does not mean that the victim deserved to be victimized.”
I don’t think anyone is arguing that point. Just don’t ask me to weep for someone who could have EASILY prevented this incident at 50 different points in the evening in question.
Every choice we make has a consequence. When you make bad choice after bad choice, guess what? Something bad happens.
I’ll save my tears for victims of child rape & molestation.
You were saying that in your first post
Rape laws vary state to state–not with the newest version of Webster’s dictionary.
OK, then, so what was the law in “Mike’s” state? Does “Mike” know?
I’m sure rape laws do vary from state to state (I’m British, and our legal definition probably varies too.) However, most definitions are likely to involve force or threat of injury, rather than pressure or blackmail (including over a job). In that case it becomes sexual assault at the most rather than rape. This doesn’t mean it wasn’t traumatic, or that “Mike” doesn’t deserve sympathy. He does. However, given that men are stronger than women in all but a few cases, rape of men by women is very rare.
I don’t buy the argument that her pregnancy was the equivalent of a loaded gun. He could have got her off without harming the baby.
Sioux lady, you’ve been hanging out with the wrong guys. Nothing delicate about my erections.
Rape is about forced sex under power. This guy was definitely raped.
However, his difficulty in dealing with it is rather pitiful. It truly *is* hard to imagine a former marine becoming such a twiddling metrosexual. Did she emasculate him that badly?
Then again, not every soldier is made of sterner stuff. Just Google Arthur Batchelor. (“Do you need another hug? A mommy hug?”)
Or go here:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/tm_headline=faye-saved-me—&method=full&objectid=18879126&siteid=89520-name_page.html
“”Topsy said she’d always be there for me, to protect me and look after me.”
In last week’s Mirror, Kate described Arthur as her “Tarzan”. But the modest sailor said: “I’m not quite king of the jungle. There are lots more braver people. We had a giggle about it. I suppose she’ll expect me to live up to the nickname now.”
—
We had a GIGGLE about it??? Blech. Goes to show.
Let me be more blunt. You’ve fallen for a fantasy or confabulation created with the specific intention of having others be subjected to a prurient exagerration of his capacities and vulnerabilities.
His “harpy” rape is a masturbatory fantasy and the literary equvalent of flashing.
For those who like the classics, the story of Poros (expediency) and Penia (poverty) from Plato’s Symposium says that Penia lay with the drunken, passed-out Poros and, from that act, conceived a child called Eros.
And I was not trying to be funny.
I’ve heard enough stories about lesbians sexually assaulting other women not to believe those on this thread who say that only men can rape. Of course, their delicate PC sensibilities don’t want to consider such a possibility, but it’s true nonetheless.
Also, Sioux Lady has a point. If I were in this situation and I didn’t find the woman attractive, I would lose my erection pretty quickly. Then what?
And finally, yes, it’s rape. But as the attitude of John (at 8:38) suggests, most of us who are men are less likely to be traumatized by an incident like this than women are.
Whta, did Penthouse not publish this, Mike?
I call BS on this.
Wow I am very surprised by the responses of women on this story. Honestly I am pretty sickened by it. People say its been 17 years already and should get over it. Yet if it were a woman, everyone here would be far more sympathetic.
What if the man was religious and saving himself for marriage, would you still be saying “Its been 17 years, get over it”? I am also disgusted by the fact that women here are somehow trying to justify the situation by saying it was a man, and forceful sex on a man from a woman is NOT rape. Do women “own” rape? Is this something that only YOU are entitled to? Sounds weird doesn’t it, but that’s how you are acting.
However I am sure it would make a difference if he were a young child or a teenager wouldn’t it? When a man says “No”, it means “No” just as much as No means No when it comes from a woman.
I am seriously disgusted by a lot of your responses here.
The non-legal standard I’ve heard most often applied to the question, “was it rape?” was “did you want it? if not, it was rape”. There are of course varying legal standards, but the psychology is about consent vs. coercion, and thus ultimately about power. I think Mike’s situation was clearly rape, and the woman knew it when she did it. Like most male rapists, she probably was aroused by the control as much as anything.
I believe that not only can a man be raped by a woman, but that it raises psychological issues peculiar to males. Mastery of his environment is a strong male trait, and many men judge their “maleness” by their assessment of how well they can control that environment. An erection is a physiological response to stimulation that can occur separate from a man’s emotional choice about a situation. A man who is raped has had his choice taken from him and his sense of maleness violated. In addition, his own body has betrayed him by “actively” participating in something he didn’t emotionally want to do. The sense of a lack of control would be compounded by confusion and guilt. I would think that is a potent and vicious cocktail of feelings.
I had a conversation like this 20 years ago with an FBI agent and a former police officer, both males, who laughed at me when I said it was possible for a man to be raped by a woman. Thus I’m not surprised by the response here. I’ve been teaching criminology off and on for the past 15 years, and whenever rape is discussed I make the point that men can be raped by women. I emphasize the psychological harm it can cause. And I point out that non-consensual sex is rape regardless of who is controlling the situation, male or female – even if it doesn’t meet a strict legal definition of rape.
In the state of Texas this would qualify as at least sexual assault, but probably not aggravated sexual assault. Texas Penal Code 22.011 states that sexual assault occurs if the perpertrator “(a) A person commits an
offense if the person: (1) intentionally or knowingly …. causes the sexual organ of another person, without that person’s consent, to contact or penetrate the mouth, anus, or sexual organ of another person, including the actor” and that “A sexual assault under Subsection (a)(1) is without the consent of the other person if: …. (5) the other person has not consented and the actor knows the other person is unconscious or physically unable to resist; ….. (7) the actor compels the other person to submit or participate by threatening to use force or violence against any
person, and the other person believes that the actor has the ability
to execute the threat;”
For aggravated sexual assault it is 22.021 and you could argue that threating to have him falsely arrested would meet the condition of “(ii) by acts or words places the victim in fear that death, serious bodily injury, or kidnapping will be imminently inflicted on any person;”, but that would be a bit of a stretch. The word “rape” does not appear in the statutes from what I have read so far.
Wow…just wow…
Let’s just replay the scenario with a couple of minor changes…..
Two women go out to a club and have a few too mnay to drink. One woman departs with a man leaving the other at the club. Unfortunately, she is too inebriated to drive and rather than risking it she elects to stay in hotel. The woman remaining at the club, a strong, fit, 21 year old elite woman athlete had struck up a friendship with a slender, effeminate metrosexual male who was stuck without a ride. Not feeling a threat from this man, and both being drunk and short of funds, they elect to share a room for the night after which she would drive him home. Both agree that only sleeping would occur in the room.
The woman awakes in the middle of the night to find the man on top of her having sexual intercourse. When she protests and tells him to stop he angrily refuses and threatens to ruin her career and image by going to the press or national Inquire and releasing made-up details about their night together and possibly even photos. While she could physically stop him she is stunned that this is happening and afraid of his threat and its potential impact on her public image and potential for a broadcasting career.
Now…given that he began intercourse with her while she was asleep, and threatened harm to her career when told him to stop, would that be rape? Would anyone be saying “just get over it”? Or would it be that nonconsensual intercourse still rape, no matter the circumstance?
When did the rape occur? When he entered her while she was asleep? When he threatened her and continued? Did it stop being rape because she could have physically made him stop but didn’t?
Why is this different from Mike’s story?
p.s. To answer the “what was he thinking” question there’s this. Perhaps he saw a pregnant woman in a difficult situation and wanted to help as best he could within his means. Perhaps, because he was a gentleman, he had no intention of doing anything other than what he said; sleep it off and get her home safely in the morning. Perhaps, this was a good deed getting taken advantage of and punished. There are many, many good men in the world who would want to help a pregnant woman in distress.
What a strange story. I agree that this is rape since the man did not consent. I don’t quite understand how the woman got him hard without his consent though.
Surprised, you’re frequently ‘outraged’, ‘indignant’, ‘disgusted’ and appalled, for a public audience aren’t you? It’s fun to wave the flag of indignation in front of a crowd. That way, everyone gets to see what a wonderful, caring, thoughtful individual you are.
I am sometimes called metrosexual by some people… mostly because I have long curly hair I think. But, I have, twice woken up from drinking to find a girl doing something or other that I hadn’t particularly agreed to. Once they were done, I thanked them for the enjoyable time.
I guess I didn’t see it as them exerting power over me, nearly as much as I saw it as a horny drunk girl jumping me. The one girl that was actually on top of me had put protection on me as well, that doesn’t seem like rape to me. of course, this guys experience may have been very different. If it was ‘rape’ to him, then I suspect it was rape, as far as I’ve been able to tell the difference between rough sex, Sadomasochism and rape seems to be the psychological state of the participants.
I don’t know how many of you guys are remembering how it was when you were 19, but when I was that age, the slightest stimulation could get me going, even if I were thinking about Grandma or dead puppies.
Without passing judgement on female on male rape, this guy is just a good old fashioned liar.
How many women do you know go clubbing when their six months pregnant thirty five miles away? How many of those women would not make arrangements of some kind to get themselves home?
Ratatosk….
If you were thanking them for an enjoyable time it sounds like you were consenting, albeit partially after the fact.
Mike did not see it that way and therein lies the difference as you noted.
Snoop: Yeah, he shouldn’t have been in that position. But that doesn’t excuse the perpetrator. If he rode a motorcycle without a helmet, that would be HIS choice, his liberty to do so. However, she infringed on his capability of making a choice for himself. That’s called coercion. Stop me if I’m going too fast for you.
Tatter: They already are extended WAYYYY beyond the threat of physical force. Women can claim rape for anything nowadays. Have second thoughts in the middle of sex? Claim rape afterwards. Heck, most courts barely need proof for a rape conviction anyway.
Casey, exactly, except for one thing: he could have gone to prison for a long, long time. That’s what makes the threat of false accusation worse than the threat of violence. If you’re beat up, you go the hospital, you get fixed up, and it’s over in a few weeks or months. If you get accused of rape, you have an ordeal that goes on for years, ruins your reputation, and ruins you financially. If you (as would likely be the case) are convicted, you can plan on 10 or more years behind bars.
I’d chose getting the crap beat out of me.
Lots of guys become erect while asleep. Never heard of the term ‘morning wood’?
Staying erect while he’s being forced to perform? I’m going to enter a social minefield here, but do all/some women rape victims stay totally unlubricated during their ordeal? I have no idea. I do have to say, erections aren’t necessarily as fragile as they’re made out to be.
Lastly, all this ‘what was he thinking?’. That’s dangerous ground. When a woman gets dressed up in a short skirt and a pair of heels – well – I ask you – what was she thinking?
I was not raped but had an ex gf steal a little over a thousand dollars from me and also used threats to keep me silent. This girl was an actress and could cry on command whenever she wanted, and manipulated others easily. I did talk to 2 lawyers but both suggested I walk away, that the money was not worth what she could do to me in court, so I did. I still have a big problem trusting anyone.
I guess the only learning experience from Mike’s story is to not get separate beds, but separate rooms. Or better yet, buy her a cab even if it’s hundreds of dollars. Better than walking into a nightmare because you tried to do the right thing.
I believe him. I was once assaulted by a girlfriend. I don’t remember the conversation leading up to it, but we were standing in her kitchen and she accused me of something, then within a few seconds accused me of the exact opposite. I replied that what she had just said was crazy because she was contradting herself. She screached, “I’M NOT CRAZY!”, took two of three steps towards me, ripped by button down shirt open with her left hand and scratched me across the chest with her right hand. She did it with such force that I had three deep and bloody gashed down my chest. I told her that if she ever did anything like that again, I would put her on the floor – meaning I would hit her so hard I would knock her out. It was like I flicked a switch. She went totally calm, stepped back, smiled and said, “You lay a hand on me and I’ll call the cops.” Totally confused, I replied, “But you’re the one who attacked me.” She continued smiling while explaining, “I can do anything I want. The police won’t touch me because I’m a woman.” I didn’t respond, but left her house and broke off contact with her. I have no idea, but my guess is that she knew exactly how to play the police in order to get away with violence towards men. I figure if I remained with her I would end up dead, in the hospital or imprisoned if I ever dared defend myself against one of her attacks. Because of this, I tend to believe this story. This woman, like my ex-girlfriend, knows that a man can’t use his strength to defend himself as long as she is willing to lie to the police. She can do anything she wants and the police won’t touch her.
“Perhaps, this was a good deed getting taken advantage of and punished. There are many, many good men in the world who would want to help a pregnant woman in distress.”
Congratulations, Casey. You’ve successfuly managed to redefine “naiveté”.
Drunk 19 year-old males do not share hotel rooms with single women out of the goodness of their hearts. You’re going to havee to trust me on this. If he were genuinely concerned for her welfare and/or honor (*cough*) he could easily gotten a separate room for himself (if he had any brains, he never would have put himself in that situation).
Just for the record, I have my doubts about this story as well. What I can’t decide is whether the problems in the story are the result of deliberate fabrication, or the story is basically true with a bit of self-delusion and exagerration to give himself some emotional cover for a humiliating experience.
In any event, the reasonable doubts that the story raise limit just how much of a statement I want to make about it, because I don’t want to find myself defending something because the evidence is ‘fake but accurate’. Hense, I’d much rather that this discussion was about a story that was less problimatic.
“I’d chose getting the crap beat out of me.”
Me too. I speak as someone who has been beat pretty bad on occassion, and I have a hard time imagining the beating which be worse than being convicted of the aggravated sexual assualt of a pregnant women. For one thing, being imprisoned amongst societies most violent is no picnic when its comes to violence you have to endure to say nothing to the irreparable damage you’d endure to your reputation. Wounds heal. Slanders don’t.
An erection is an involuntary physiological response. Most if not all men have stories of times when they had an unwanted erection that caused them embarassment. Multiple factors can work toward a man ‘staying hard’ against his will. Women can show sexual arousal too, through hardened/erect nipples underneath their shirts, and it too is involuntary. It has to do with the the parasympathetic nervous system. I think the confusion has to do with the fact that other muscles in our body contract and ‘get hard’ voluntarily, through the sympathetic nervous system.
And we wonder why so many men no longer want to have anything to do with women!
I believe him. And I’m a woman.
Well, after reading through the comments to get here, it is clear that there is still no sympathy for abused males, so my primary thought now is “Why bother?”
But there are some things in the comments that are simply not true.
Something “men can defend, women can not”. Bull Shit. Pure and simple. Even if you leave out the “blackmail” and “nobody will believe him” and related angles. Women can physically damage a man seriously. Seriously.
Men are in fact pretty powerless, any way you look at it.
But I will agree that the comments do provide evidence that drinking is a bad idea–it robs you of the last vestige of control–and makes you vulnerable to drugging and a number of other avoidable hazards.
Helen, while this was sexual assault, this is basically identical to the story of Joseph. If he were a real man he would have done the time for the injustice against him.
That’s part of being a man. Taking people’s crap so society can exist.
And I meant to add that I think that contrary to common opinion, rape is not a black or white issue (and I make no reference to race here, I mean: A given case is not Rape, or Not Rape).
There is a gray scale. There are situations where at the time, and in retrospect later, I was and am not sure what happened.
Snoop Diggit-whatever: ““Perhaps, this was a good deed getting taken advantage of and punished. There are many, many good men in the world who would want to help a pregnant woman in distress.”
Congratulations, Casey. You’ve successfuly managed to redefine “naiveté”.
Drunk 19 year-old males do not share hotel rooms with single women out of the goodness of their hearts. You’re going to havee to trust me on this. If he were genuinely concerned for her welfare and/or honor (*cough*) he could easily gotten a separate room for himself (if he had any brains, he never would have put himself in that situation).”
Again, thanks for demonstrating the power of stereotypes. Could the guy be making this all up? Sure. Is he? You’d have to be pretty naive yourself to think that there couldn’t be a 19-year-old Marine who, even drunk, has the decency to throw a protective wing over a pregnant girl. Or to think there couldn’t be a pregnant girl shady enough to do what “Mike” claims this one did. I’ve been around a few times and one thing I’ve learned (many times, and expensively) is that it’s always dangerous to assume that nobody could really do some particular thing. Especially if the person’s race, gender, etc. is the reason for your assumption. “Mike”‘s story could just as easily be true as false.
You’re naive if you believe that about young men. Erections while asleep are very common, and odds are against him that it’ll just go away if he wakes up to find himself penetrating a very excited woman.
As a former bartender, I’ve seen plenty of pregnant women partying without the concerns for safety that nynick assumes. Also, I have witnessed that just as some men get limp with drunkenness, some go the other way, and maintain involuntary lumber, even asleep. No interest or external help necessary. A different kind of whiskey d**k. I don’t think it’s reasonable to disbelieve Mike just because one’s own plumbing works differently. Ask around. It’s been known to happen.
Aside from the pressures of career penalty and possible arrest, this woman put Mike in the position of betraying another woman he loved, an infidelity he’d never intended, carrying its own shame and risks. How do you explain that one to your girlfriend when you bring home crabs (or worse)? How do you protect yourselves against whatever this bar-rat might’ve brought with her?
Unlike some other commenters, I didn’t get the idea that Mike “couldn’t get over it” for 17 years, but rather that he’s finally now admitted to himself what really happened. There are those occasions in life when we all look back and realize that things weren’t what we thought at the time. He’ll cope and move on now, I’m sure, but there’s no coping possible for an imaginary assault, which unfortunately so many here seem to consider it.
“she infringed on his capability of making a choice…”
No she didn’t, seguine.
He chose to get drunk.
He chose to not plan a way home.
He chose to get a room with a complete stranger.
Here’s my theory: The fundamental tenet of feminism is that womyn & men are completely equal and should be treated exactly the same in every circumstance. This requires, naturally, that men and womyn be equal-opportunity victims, as well. So now we’re forced to prop-up this notion by convincing ourselves that a 19 year-old male marine has been raped by a ferocious pregnant woman. Going too fast for you?
While I appreciate how desperately you NEED for men to be victims like you, it not gonna happen. Men don’t want to be victims, and we’re not going to let that bumper sticker stick.
We’re not better than womyn. But that doesn’t mean we’re the same.
Mike wasn’t raped. He just had a bad case of ‘stupid’.
Yes he was raped you idiot. She had sex without his consent that’s rape.
Rape must surely include physical force or threat of physical force.
So if a boss threatens a female employee with loss of her job if she doesn’t have sex with him, that’s not rape?
Somebody has a Jesus complex.
No, the answer to injustice isn’t turning the other cheek.
SarahW and Aronamos and a few others:
I assure you as I type this response and my hands shake with rage – I was indeed raped. This is not fiction. This is not funny. This is not your experience to childishly dismiss. Penthouse? Hustler? Really? Wow this thread is full of children.
NyNick:
She did have a ride home. As I mentioned above, he DISAPPEARED – most likely with someone else to have a good time on their own. What woman would be in a club at 6 months pregnant? Gee, I don’t know. Hit some clubs and you’ll easily find a few. As my own experience suggests, she is not a “typical” woman, but any stretch of the imagination.
For some of the other posters:
It is not something I need to “get over” or “suck up” or “man up” about.
Having spent 15 years next to a rape survivor (part of why I ignored my own rape – I couldn’t support her in the manner she deserved while dealing with my own), I have daily experience with this matter. Do any of you know what it is like to wake up next to a woman screaming in her sleep, fighting an invisible attacker or attempting to strangle you in your sleep as she is unable to wake out of the nightmare and can’t see you as her husband? How many of you are man enough to deal with that for YEARS ON END???? Not likely many of you.
Gee, I wonder why I took so long to deal with my own shit…
Anyone here at all?
It is not cute, funny, or laughable. It is painful, disgusting and at times – shameful to think about.
Ignoring it and suppressing it for so long hasn’t worked – even though I needed to be there for someone else while she gained her strength – something a real man would do. I’m working through this with an experienced rape counselor and I will be fine on the other end of this.
I am doing what a real man does – facing it. I am not doing what a insescure, cowardly little man-child does – pretending, deluding, ignoring and self-destructing.
Since when did denial and self-delusion become manly traits? Since when did hurting a pregnant woman and her child become acceptable behavior for a man?
When? When? When?
A real man (not an immature little wimp of a man-child like some of these posters) knows when he needs help rather than bottling it up until it explodes onto some innocent bystander. Anyone volunteering to be that bystander for me? Anyone? Anyone at all?
But thanks to so many people for revealing their general lack of humanity and total immaturity. Glad to see that victim-blaming and childish behavior know no gender.
Snoop (use your real name like a real man would):
I was a 19 year old Marine. Do you know how much that the Corps paid to an E-3 back in the day? Do you think the woman was wealthy or something? We split the cost, because we were both living on limited means. This was the semi-monthly night out and I planned for Further, why would I ever, in a million years have expected that a pregnant woman would do this to me? Are you f*cking psychic??????
Trust you on this? You weren’t there. You are talking out of your ass in order to make excuses for a rapist.
celebrim:
There is nothing “problimatic” about what happened to me other than that I was raped for helping out a friend of a friend. It is just that simple.
This will be my one and only posting in this ridiculous thread as I’m too pissed off to be civil any longer. All I hope is that another man reads my story, ignores the hate and immaturity of so many of these posters and seeks help earlier. I would have much rather gotten through this when I was 19, but I didn’t have that luxury as I left for the Gulf War a few months afterward and was then POS’d to a new duty station and married soon after that to a woman who had more than enough baggage for both of us. Life got in the way of “getting over it.”
Live through it first yourself and then tell me how to deal…
Oh crap.. all you who are lumping all the ‘get over it’ responses into one basket, PLEASE!
And for the women who think a man cant keep an erection, especially at 19 yo, against his will.. think again. “My Body betrays me” sound familiar?
Here’s the point, in case I didnt make it earlier, Rape is about power. The kid isnt so much concerned he was raped, he’s more concerned about the loss of power in the situation.
THAT is what he needed to deal with. And get over.
The idea that men cannot be raped by women has many sources; unsurprisingly, it is a staple of feminist literature like Susan Brownmiller’s “Against Our Will.” The premise was that men use their erections as “weapons to generate fear.” Rape was merely the most extreme instantiation of a much broader continuum of oppression — the oppression of the penetratee by the penetrator.
Now, whether or not there is something special about penetration-rape (and I think there is), the evidence is clear that women suffer more from penetration-rape than men do. The theory is that rape is first and foremost an opportunistic, outlier strategy for men to propagate their genes; the flip side to this is that the agony of rape for the female is especially severe because it is, like the man’s promiscuous sex-drive, deeply rooted in her biological nature. A central premise of Thornhill and Palmer’s book “A Natural History of Rape” is that “rape subverts female choice, the core of the ubiquitous mechanism of sexual selection.” This “subversion”, which violates her deepest, unconscious, most intractable desires, is experienced by the woman as unparalleled psychological trauma.
This kind of to-the-bone, spiritual trauma is simply unaccessed when a man is raped by penetration. The less extreme rape-by-commandeering is, as you can imagine, less traumatizing still. In general, at least.
This doesn’t mean that we should treat all these forms of rape different in a legal sense, but it does mean that there are, in fact, real world distinctions between the rape of a woman, the penetration-rape of a man, and the rape-by-commandeering scenarios illustrated in the above email.
I believe “Mike’s” story and I’m sympathetic. But does it come under the definition of rape, which usually involves actual force or threat of force. Duress is different from threats of violence (though still wrong).
I’d be more inclined to see this as sexual assault. For info, in the UK the legal definition of rape is penetration by the penis of somebody’s vagina, anus or mouth, without their consent. It can be committed against men or women but since it involves penile penetration it can only be committed by men.
That’s the legal stuff – it doesn’t mean that women can’t commit sexual assault that is just as traumatic for the victim.
So if a boss threatens a female employee with loss of her job if she doesn’t have sex with him, that’s not rape?
Technically, legally no – it’s sexual harassment.
The definition of rape – indeed all criminal offences – needs to be precise, otherwise nobody will ever be convicted of anything.
While I am revolted by some of the responses on this thread, I’m not surprised. Most people just don’t want to believe it’s possible for a woman to rape or otherwise sexually abuse a man.
I have a friend who several years ago (he’d just turned 18) made the “mistake” of falling asleep while watching a movie with a group of friends at one of those friend’s houses. He woke up to find that everyone but the hostess had gone home, and the hostess had unzipped his pants and was in the process of giving him oral sex. He was horrified, as he had no such interest in this “friend” and had already told her so. Apparently she thought she could change his mind by showing him how good she was at giving head. He pushed her away and immediately left her house. He was embarrassed and ashamed and disgusted. He felt stupid, like somehow he should have had the foresight not to allow himself to be put in such a situation, although he never in a million years would have expected she might do something like that, so how could he have foreseen the danger? I mean, after all, women don’t take sexual advantage of men, right???
To compound the situation, the next day the girl was mad at HIM, saying he had been rude and inconsiderate of HER feelings by rejecting her sexual advance. And all their friends sided with HER, leaving him to deal with his embarrassment and shame all by himself.
Now, this situation does not rise to the level of rape, but it qualifies as a sexual assault. If the genders of the parties were reversed, there is no question how others would have looked at this situation – all hearers would have been appalled and would have rightly villified the perpetrator. But since a girl forced oral sex on a sleeping guy, my friend was sure that if he told authorities, no one would think it was wrong, or they’d say “gee, I wish *I* had that kind of problem!”
Regardless of the genders of the people involved, waking up to find yourself involved in unwelcome sexual activity feels like, and IS, a violation. If it would be wrong for a man to remove a sleeping girl’s pants and perform oral sex on her, it is equally wrong for a woman to remove a sleeping man’s pants and perform oral sex on him. If it happened to a girl, she’d be encouraged by her outraged friends and family to go to the police, despite her shame.
In contrast, the other friends of this young man I know either thought his situation was nothing to complain about, or thought HE had been in the wrong for rejecting the girl. Disgusting!
This episode cost him his friends, because the perpetrator cast herself as the wronged party, and forced their mutual friends to choose between them. All their female mutual friends sided with the girl, and their male mutual friends didn’t want to “make trouble” and by their refusal to take a stand, by default sided with the girl. All of them have been so well taught that sexual assaults are only done by men to women, and so none of them appreciated that my friend felt just as violated as any woman in his situation would have felt.
I might also add that the shame, the violation and the subsequent abandonment by his friends sent this young man into a downward spiral into depression that he has struggled with for more than 3 years. This encounter seriously damaged his feelings of self-worth and changed him from an upbeat guy with a positive view of his future into an unhappy person who sees his future as a long bleak road of emptiness. It makes me very angry to see how much that idiot girl hurt him, and I know she’ll never be punished for it like she deserves to be. It was a sexual assault, no two ways about it.
/sarc
But I guess he just needs to “get over it” and man up, right? After all, he’s a man, and men don’t have feelings. Besides, what 18 year old would turn down oral sex? So his story must be bogus. Just another masturbatory fantasy. /sarc
well all i have to say is one thing what if he was interested in her then what would you say
the real question is: “Can a woman rape a woman?” Or better yet: “Can a tranny rape a tranny?” And would it make a difference if they were on their honeymoon, in LA.
Exactly! Men can’t perform without some interest in performing.
Most healthy men wake up with an erection from time to time. Exactly what interest did they express in their sleep?
To Mary Jackson, if you wake up to find a man performing cunnilingus on you, is that rape?
So James Landrith, you’re “Mike”? This is your awesome story?
The story is silly. I agree that it is nothing more than a “dark” Penthouse Forum story.
Absent a risk of contracting an STD (which does not seem to be the focus of his conern), I think all young men would welcome waking up to a woman getting a workout on them. As to psychological damage. What??? Because she was “not his type”?
I do not think men can really be harmed by non-violent rape and I do not think what he went though consituted violence. It is very different for women. Men are designed for quick action and are much more comfortable with sex as simply a physical act. I do not think that healthy men can feel “violated” by it under the described circumstances, whether is is consented to or not.
Most guys would just enjoy having a great story to tell their friends.
Let’s clear one thing up: a healthy 20-something male is involuntarily erect frequently. If you’re male, in your 20s, and having any difficulty at all, you need to see a doctor. Even in my 40s, all it would take is a woman in tight jeans to make me go “toing”. Nothing voluntary about it. It’s a reflex.
The story in totality is a bit strange, but there are no elements to it, taken by themselves, that lack credibility. If you’re going to insist that this is a fabrication or a distortion, what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. We have to disbelieve all female accusations of rape, too. Is that where you really want to go?
Bozoer Rebbe – legally no, but if it was without my consent, it would be sexual assault.
“Snoop (use your real name like a real man would)” Ohhh, gosh, James. You are SO calling me out, aren’t you?
A real man would also accept responsibility for his actions, James. You did this to yourself, but now you want the world to excuse you for it, so we get a big expose’ on the secret world men being raped by pregnant women.
Wallowing in this narcissistic victim-fantasy for the rest of your life is your choice, James.
He did it to himself? Yes because he hypnotized the woman into raping him, she bears no responsibility for her actions.
On the other hand, after the incident, I can see “Mike” being very distrustful of being alone with a woman that he did not know well afterwords. But, that, it seems to me, is not a result of being “raped”, but a result of him learning first hand how dangerous a woman can be who has no compunction about lying to the police about rape.
SarahW:
And I was not trying to be funny.
Humorless harridans are rarely funny. You don’t have issues with men, you have a lifetime subscription. Your misandry drips from every word.
“Rape must surely include physical force or threat of physical force. That is why women raping men is virtually a non-issue – most men, including this one, are stronger than most women.”
Mary, what matters is the legal definition, not some nonsense in a commercial dictionary. after all we’re not in the fourth grade. If you have sex with a drunken person (female) that is prima facie rape in almost every jurisdiction in the US. No force involved. Force is not an element of the crime; lack of consent is the crucial element.
“I’m sure rape laws do vary from state to state (I’m British, and our legal definition probably varies too.) ”
Mary, as I recall, penetration is written into the British legal definition of rape. That is completley sexist of course and quite backward, but there it is – every juriosdiction has some loopy old relics of laws.
“I don’t buy the argument that her pregnancy was the equivalent of a loaded gun. He could have got her off without harming the baby.”
Once again – she threatened to cry rape. The preganancy would just have made the police, the judge and the jury lose their minds that much faster and convict him before the trial. I can’t expect a woman to understand this kind of threat because you have never lived under it.
“Exactly! Men can’t perform without some interest in performing. ”
Bullshit. Well, maybe you can’t. Get a clue about basic anatomy.
“All my 66 years I have believed that the male erection is a very delicate thing – collapsing at the least bit of pyschological distress …”
Maybe only around you.
““she infringed on his capability of making a choice…”
No she didn’t, seguine.
He chose to get drunk.
He chose to not plan a way home.
He chose to get a room with a complete stranger.”
If he had been female none of those facts would have excused the rapist. Not one of those communicates consent. She should have doen hard time, just like a man.
“I’m sorry Helen, but this is silly. Men ARE supposed to be different than women. I don’t want to see men crying and sharing their feelings….I hate the whole metrosexual thing, it’s part of what is wrong with the whole landscape…we need men to be men…”
And we don’t need you or your kind for anything, you damned bigot. You really are sorry.
“Snoop: Yeah, he shouldn’t have been in that position.”
That’s the bottom line. The breeder could have walked.
I’m going to enter a social minefield here, but do all/some women rape victims stay totally unlubricated during their ordeal?
The fact that some female rape victims experience orgasm is generally not considered legal evidence of consent. Your body reacts automatically to certain stimuli.
I guess my parents were right: if you want sympathy, look in the dictionary. You’ll find it between “shit” and “syphilis”.
Was Mike raped? Sure seems that way to me. As others have pointed out before, remove the gender identifiers and see how you feel about it. And please, do keep up the hair-splitting regarding how rape can only happen with penetration. Has a person been any less mugged if they are threatened with a knife or a gun? Are they any less dead for having been strangled rather than shot? The very fact that such a distinction exists enshrined in our law is proof of the double standard, not disproof of the claim. Or do you want to claim that the law can’t be biased against a specific group? I’d LOVE to hear the defense for that one.
Snoop Diggity-DANG-Dawg,
Here’s one for you. Guy I knew passed out in a hotel room after a night of drinking while he was in the military. Woke up to find that a gay guy who worked in the hotel had followed him in and was performing oral sex on him.
So, let me guess, that wasn’t rape either, right?
I’m amazed that no one mentioned date rape until 3/4 of the way through the thread.
In college I lived for a year in an all-male dorm. Before we were allowed to move in we all had to attend a seminar given by a local ADA. We were told that if a woman had sex with us then later decided that she felt “forced into it” because we bought her dinner, gave her a ride, helped her fold her laundry, etc…she could charge us with rape. That was back in the late 80′s. They really tried to scare the hell out of us. It’s a wonder we dated at all.
How is this any different than date rape?
“To Mary Jackson, if you wake up to find a man performing cunnilingus on you, is that rape?”
According to English Law the man would only be guilty of rape if he was using his penis to perform said cunnilingus.
James – thanks for sharing your pain bub. Keep your head up and keep fighting the good fight.
Instead of engaging in more excited, breathless discussion about the inner-workings of the male anatomy, how about we enjoy some more hot, steaming narcissism over at “Mike’s” website?
http://www.jameslandrith.com
There, you can find all sorts of new & exiting things like:
Q: What’s Mike’s position on racism?
A: He’s agin’ it!
Q: How does mike feel about public education?
A: He’s fer’ it!
Q: What about people?!?
A: He likes ‘em!
Q: Technology?
A: Loves it!
Q: Foreign policy?
A: Hmmm, that’s a complicated one…
I find the general female response to this post rather dismaying, and quite frankly, will remember it in the future.
Most of all, contrast these responses – “oh, bullshit, women can’t rape men”, “I don’t believe that could/would happen”, “it was his fault, he was asking for it” and “he could have stopped it any time”, to the original situation presented: i.e., the idea that this man says he could do nothing because he would not be believed.
After enough of this at some point you simply start losing sympathy for women and women’s causes and have to start looking after your own ass. I’ve had similar uncomfortable situations myself where other people suddenly left me with a woman I didn’t know to look after. F*ck ‘em, they can walk.
That’s because you hang out with men who are controlled by their penises. Most of the men I associate with would not be happy to find themselves in that situation because their religion teaches them to wait until marriage before having sex. No healthy man would be happy waking up to a woman that he is not attracted to not only using him like a flesh and blood dildo, but very clearly, like a predator, making it known to him that if he objected that she would accuse him of one of the most serious felonies there is.
If you have sex with a drunken person (female) that is prima facie rape in almost every jurisdiction in the US. No force involved.
In Michigan the law presumes that a drunk woman is incapable of giving consent to sex. Of course feminist legal activists have made sure that a drunk man is still presumed capable of forming intent.
Many posters here sneer at my using a dictionary definition of rape, but also do not adhere to the strict letter of the law, which in the UK and many other countries, and perhaps in many American states, requires forcible penetration by a penis.
Are we talking about legal, technical rape here or not? If we are, which state was Mike raped in, and does the law define what happened as rape?
You guys are nuts to dismiss this- the threat of PRISON is surely as menacing as the threat of a beating. Probably more. How about the inferred threat of violence implicit in sending a man to jail for years on a rape conviction? Personally i’ll take just about any beating short of death over serial rape in a prison over several years.
Mary your argument is ridiculous. Makes me wonder where you were the night in question.
Nice strawman.
Now – how about using your real name? I guess that ‘real man’ comment hit a little too close to home eh?
Full disclosure:
I’m on the ‘it is rape’ side of the argument. Don’t care what country. Don’t care what side of the feminist divide. The word has evolved whether Mary wants to acknowledge it or not. If we’re all to be equal, men and women alike, then you cannot have two separate legal standards. If forced sexual intercourse is rape for a woman then it’s rape for a man as well. Force doesn’t have to be physical. She forced him, via blackmail, to do something against his will.
Mary Jackson (short version):
“Attention must be paid to me!”
“Guy I knew passed out in a hotel room after a night of drinking while he was in the military. Woke up to find that a gay guy who worked in the hotel had followed him in and was performing oral sex on him.
So, let me guess, that wasn’t rape either, right?”
Golly-gee, Mike T. OK, it’s rape, but who cares? Just another story about some drunk guy reaping the rewards for his stupid decisions.
Let’s say instead of him getting a “free one”, he was just drunk, passed out and someone took his wallet? Did a crime take place? Of course it did. But that doesn’t mean he was any less culpable for being a drunken jerk making stupid choices.
(Personally, I would have taken the free one and called it even)
James,
Thank you for your courage and please remember that somewhere out there is another guy who is going through what you are and who may seek help because of you. While they will learn from this thread that many–both men and women–have no compassion at all for men in our society and are the worst sorts of hypocrits and bigots, they will also see a helping hand from others. Thanks again.
Actually, Bozoer Mary’s argument can be summed up as follows:
“Attention must be paid to me!”
Attention should be paid to my arguments. Is what happened to Mike legally rape or not? In the UK it would not be; it would be sexual assault at the most.
If what happened to Mike was not rape under the law of the state it took place in, should the law be changed?
“Now – how about using your real name?”
You mean like big “Mike”, Dan? Please. I don’t don’t define manhood in such pathetic, rediculous terms.
This is actually quite interesting, because some of the same people defending the foolish choices made by “Mike” are also willing to endanger themselves by posting their a-c-t-u-a-l names on a blog, under the misguided proposition that this constitutes “bravery”.
This enables pretty much anyone to track you down and harass you (or worse). Smart, huh?
“..are the worst sorts of hypocrits and bigots…”.
No thanks, Helen. Disagreeing with your pet theory does not make me a hypocrit[sic] or a bigot.
But that fact that you resort to name-calling tells me pretty much everything I need to know about how you develop your theories.
Mary is correct, it cannot be rape. A woman cannot rape a man. It is sexual assault.
Mike T: I’ll grant you that. There are a small percentage of young men who are saving themselves for religious reasons. In that case, I suppose they could be violated. Of course, I don’t think any of them would have put themselves in the situation presented in the story. Also, nowhere in the story does he mention that she “stole” his virginity. So that does not seem to be what happened here.
“No healthy man would be happy waking up to a woman that he is not attracted to not only using him like a flesh and blood dildo, but very clearly, like a predator, making it known to him that if he objected that she would accuse him of one of the most serious felonies there is.”
The question is not whether he was happy with it – it is whether the coerced sex damaged him. It seems improbable. As I said in a later post, the most I (and most other males) would have taken away from the event was how dangerous a woman can be who has no compunction about lying to the police about rape. He got wiser in a hurry. That is not long term psychological harm.
I know James has responded in the thread and is angry. But, I still don’t believe that long term psychological damage is possible here.
Good thought provoking article Helen. I have never thought about this issue but in the future I will be more open-minded.
“Men can’t get raped.”
I thought that, too. It’s pure BS.
“Sexually Aggressive Women” by Peter Anderson is a very well researched and thoughtful analysis of sexual predatory behavior in women. In no way does it abbrogate the behavior of sexually predatorial behavior in men, but it does illuminate something few people can stomach: There are women out there who–YES!– rape men!
If you have the stomach to know the truth, you will be shown exactly how men have been raped at gunpoint, against their will.
Get over your pubescent obsession with what you believe causes erections. A man can be in a complete state of terror and be forced into an erection and ultimately ejaculation.
The Internet stuns me. Before the Internet, I never imagined that there were so many people who were totally convinced they knew every damn thing in the universe. Apart from Dr. Helen and Trey, the lot of you idiots makes me sick.
“…I never imagined that there were so many people who were totally convinced they knew every damn thing in the universe.”
But YOU know the truth, don’t you Kevin M? And I swear: I’ll never disagree with one of your opinions again. Evah.
James: I’ve been around the internet too long to accept anything uncritically from anonymous sources. Especially when those anonymous sources are relating sexual events, especially when they brag about thier tumescence. Your coming foward, in the face of all this scorn, does alot to establish credibility.
And on the subject of avoiding bragging if you want to be taken seriously, you repeated the problem in your response. There are few things more likely to be treated with disdain as threats to commit bodily harm on people over the internet. You are a Marine. You should no better than making big talk, anger or no anger. Your ability to kick ass is not in question until you bring it up.
Brian,
“But, I still don’t believe that long term psychological damage is possible here.”
You are so wrong–I don’t know where to start. I have treated boys and men who have been raped and abused, and believe me the psychological damage is real. Who are you to decide that no psychological damage has been done?
While this story may be fabricated the scenario is nonetheless valid, and most men can attest to similar events in their own life.
Want to know why it would be rape?
- What if he was married or dating, how do you think his significant other would feel about the encounter?
- What if she had an STD, AIDS, HEP whatever? He was denied the option of a condom (oh and you can get Herpes with a condom)?
- What if the woman later got pregnant and had then sought 20 years of child support, basically resulting in slavery for him?
- What if he was gay, a priest, virgin, celibate? His preferences don’t matter I suppose.
The double standards in the society are oppressive to men. It’s no wonder that men are basically dropping out and seeking a life of secure, stable solitude.
I comment only on the issue of a nineteen-year-old having, and sustaining, an erection. When I was a young man, I would get and maintain erections quite easily, though once sex began, I rarely lasted very long.
(Ironically, in my older age, my body now reacts the opposite. I have trouble getting and maintaining erections. It’s only recently that I’ve realized this is a source of some sexual relationship issues–we were virgins at marriage and my wife simply never learned how to do foreplay on me since she didn’t have to!)
Seems odd – a guy repeatedly raped while asleep?
Dear Snoop:
Read the book. I never purported to be an expert, but Peter Anderson IS! Take your hostility to his doorstep, and learn how to spell.
“Many posters here sneer at my using a dictionary definition of rape, but also do not adhere to the strict letter of the law, which in the UK and many other countries, and perhaps in many American states, requires forcible penetration by a penis.”
Perhaps? Plenty of people here have told you the opposite. Why is it taking you so long to understand this? We are quite aware of the legal definiton of rape in Britain; it is backward, bigoted and comepletely irrelvant to an incident occurring in the US. The strict letter of the law in almost every US jusrisdiction hinges on consent, which is what most posters here with a clue keep insisting.
celebrim:
I wasn’t bragging, I was making a factual point as I’ve already read other postings on other blogs where readers falsely believed that a man cannot be erect against his will. This was not bragging. It was a simple fact of my life at 19. Such childishness aka the “wet noodle defense” bandied about as facts from the willfully ignorant gets old after awhile.
Could I have communicated it better? Sure.
Further, I did not threaten anyone. No person on this thread was threatened. That inference is absolutely false and I expect you to retract it at once.
I simply asked if someone was willing to volunteer to be the person I blew up on as a result of NOT dealing with the aftermath of the emotions swirling through me right now. It was not a threat. This comment was directed at those who think I need to just “suck it up” – you know, the be a “real man” schtick. There is a world of difference between illustrating a point (which I did) and making an actual threat.
I’m dealing with my issues like an adult. I’m not going to blow up on anyone.
Claiming otherwise is simply dishonest.
Dear Snoop:
Read the book. Then we’ll talk. Until then, take a pill.
Maybe not rape (by the classic definition of it) but certainly sexual assault. I remembered reading about men being so plastered that the only thing that could wake them up from their stupor was the sharp pain of having their penis cut off.
James Landrith,
I’m sorry but I just ain’t buying it. It doesn’t add up. Take this statement.
“he DISAPPEARED – most likely with someone else to have a good time on their own.”
Most likely? If this had happened to me, I would have at the very least asked our mutual friend where the hell he disappeared to. “Most likely” implies you don’t know for sure that is simply not credible. What kind of person would leave a friend who’s six months pregnant alone in a club so far away from home with no other way to get back? That would require an explanation if it were me. I would have wanted to know that an a lot more about this person from the person that introduced us. It doesn’t appear you did that. Why not?
To answer Mary’s question
In Virginia, this woman would be classified as a rapist per the Commonwealth legal code:
It doesn’t say which state the incident happened in, but in Virginia she most certainly would be classified as a rapist. Most states in the United States are like Virginia where intoxication implies inability to give consent.
So, if the hotel worker had unlocked his door, come in, and shot him dead, he would have been culpable too.
Snoop is a troll. That’s getting pretty obvious here.
nynick:
Are you an idiot? “Most likely” indicates I don’t know where he went, not that he didn’t disappear. There is a big difference betweent the two concepts.
I deployed to the Gulf War a few months later. My friend was in a different unit. I had a mission to accomplish. I didn’t see him again until at least 8 months later or more. What does this have to do with what she did to me?
It has nothing to do with it.
You are making excuses for a rapist.
Whether “Mike’s” story is true or not, there is a great deal of immaturity displayed in the responses here. It seems that a lot of the really crass comments stem from the common, yet ignorant, perception that if someone does something stupid, then they deserve no sympathy. After all, they are “reaping the rewards” of their decisions. This smells like hypocritical BS to me.
To “Snoop”, etc – I don’t believe for a minute that you’ve never done anything really stupid in your life. And, I’m willing to bet your attitude would conveniently change if someone f***ed you up because of your stupid decisions… I think you’d be seeking justice, and finding lots of reasons why your stupidity didn’t make it OK for someone to abuse you.
By her legal threats, the possibility of getting raped by society was very real. Had he called her bluff and tossed her across the room, and had she cried rape, the police would have tested her the presence of semen, which would have probably turned out positive if she had brought him to orgasm. From there, only one conclusion: “Jail”.
This story is the tip of the iceberg. I know of a situation going on now where people are using devices like these to rape a man:
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6650943.html
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article56264.ece
The person is drugged asleep using gas or a medication pump that is also installed internally like the genital implants. The person is then raped by both women and men.(The devices are used to create an erection for the women.) It is blatant rape, torture, and sexual slavery.
This has been going on for years and the person in question cannot get help. People involved in the situation have accused him of being crazy, so he can’t go to the police without concrete evidence.(And there is evidence that the police are corrupt/involved.) He has gone to doctors, lawyers, human rights groups, private investigators, investigative journalists, etc. They all either seem to think he is crazy or seem to be intimidated away from situations like this. He has a little evidence of his claims but it is limited – one of the devices shows up on ultrasound, rectal bleeding, etc.
Anyone have any ideas as to where someone like this could get help? A person or group that realizes things like this are actually going on?
Mary Jackson:
“Attention must be paid to me!”
Attention should be paid to my arguments.
“Should”??!!!
According to whom? Who died and made you chief arbitrator of the definition of rape? Attention should only be paid to your arguments if they are worth something to someone other than the author.
Re: Penetration.
Perhaps the laws should be changed to read as an act in which penetration occurs without consent. That’s gender neutral and would include the possibility of woman raping men for those that are hung up on the “to be rape the rapist must penetrate the woman” argument.
Peronally, I’m in in the “forced/coerced sex is abhorrent” camp. It doesn’t matter who the aggressor is and who the victim is. It also doesn’t matter if it is intercourse, oral sex or any other variation. Gender doesn’t matter and restricting the law so that only men can be rapists is patently unfair and probably violates equal protection. Further, I can’t see why restricting rape to only women is something we should fight for. How would including protection for men lessen the rights or protection of women? Bottom line is rape is wrong, it has consequences for its victims, and should be heavily punished no matter the gender issues.
Mary,
Is marital rape possible in the absence of a physical threat?
“If what happened to Mike was not rape under the law of the state it took place in, should the law be changed?”
If having nonconsentual sex with an unconscious woman is rape, so is having sex with an unconscious man. If nothing else there is an Equal Protection argument to be made, at least in the US.
James, thanks for coming forward. You’ve shown a lot more courage than those who hide behind pseudonyms saying “Men can’t be raped.”
I guess the only learning experience from Mike’s story is to not get separate beds, but separate rooms. Or better yet, buy her a cab even if it’s hundreds of dollars. Better than walking into a nightmare because you tried to do the right thing.
That was my thought–call her a cab. But as James said, he didn’t have a lot of money, and not everyone had cellphones and lots of credit cards 18 years ago.
If this had happened to me, I would have at the very least asked our mutual friend where the hell he disappeared to.
Nick–what part of “disappeared” don’t you understand? Again, this took place in 1990, when few people besides doctors had cell phones. Don’t you think that, if he’d been able to call his friend and demand that he get back there and deal with this woman, that he would have?
Let’s say that you are passed out, in a dreamlike state, You are dreaming, or at least think you are. Some parts are coming in from dreams, with some reality seeping in from the sounds your ears are picking up. You are feeling pleasurable sensations, enjoying them, not knowing where they come from (maybe even not caring), until being awakened by sounds and lights or movement caused by her sexual activities on you. I particularly remember one instance where I was in a deep sleep from exhaustion. I wasn’t drunk. I hate alcohol. I woke up from my deep sleep to find my wife straddling me, I was being awakened by her activities.
People have a lot of different responses to having been the victim of a sexual assault. The severity of the sexual assault doesn’t necessarily correlate with the severity of the response of the victim. Everyone is different. It is just silly to try to mandate to people how to respond emotionally/psychologically to a sexual assault, or to tell someone their response was ‘wrong’. Actually, it is also dangerous, because it may encourage victims to exaggerate to get the justice/empathy they are wanting. Not to mention just give up and suffer alone. It also may encourage female perps out there.
Are you a part of the solution, or adding to the problem?
Mike had to know this would get ugly though. i hope he was warned. I am assuming he can handle it. He certainly seems to have found help. It is the others future and present victims out there that concern me.
The strict letter of the law in almost every US jusrisdiction hinges on consent, which is what most posters here with a clue keep insisting.
So have women in the US been convicted of rape then?
The law in the UK is obviously different, and would classify this as sexual assault. Which doesn’t mean the perpetrator gets off scot free. Indeed sentences for sexual assault can be longer than for rape in certain cases.
If someone (man or woman) penetrates a person (man or woman) with a broken bottle, that would not, technically be rape in the UK, but they’d be put away for a long time.
So can somebody tell me – is what this woman did rape in most American states? (I understand it is in Virginia.) If so, he should have pressed charges.
Some anger management issues in this thread. If I were you, Dr. Helen, I’d “prescribe” visits elsewhere. (I know, you’re a PhD, not a physician, just being a little facetious.)
Regardless of what you believe, this is a serious issue that should be discussed with civility.
Dr. Helen wrote: “Who are you to decide that no psychological damage has been done?”
I’m a male. Perhaps it gives me insight that you do not have. If you want what appears to be the textbook reason for the difference look to the comment above from JA – it sounds about right. God knows how much effort (and money) somebody wasted to come up with the “textbook” explanation, when the average joe could have given you the answer (though without some of the nuance) without much effort. I reminds me the recent breakthrough discovery that watching women running in bikini’s alters men’s thought processes.
I think that about 90% of men who heard the story he described would have grinned and told him “holy sh_t, excellent story” or “lucky for you”. James can probably corroborate me on that. That is not because we are mean or callous, but because we cannot conceive that coerced heterosexual sex under the circumstances he described could cause lasting harm.
You and Jim do not like that. But, that is the way it is. Men are different and they do not presume an eggshell-like fragility in the psyche of other males. Is that a bad thing? Perhaps there is some greater societal wisdom in it.
Geoff:
That’s not the worst of it. They’re saying that they don’t deserve the protection of the law.
Applying that principle in a different situation, there should be no child support paid to women who consensually got themselves pregnant, because they did it to themselves.
James writes:
” “Most likely” indicates I don’t know where he went, not that he didn’t disappear. There is a big difference betweent the two concepts.”
I know it indicates you don’t know. That’s exactly the point. If it happened to me, I would have found the guy and asked him were he went. I would think most people would have done the same.
“I deployed to the Gulf War a few months later.”
And? What about the next day? The day after that? You expect us to believe you’ve been carrying this emotional baggage for so long and it never occurred to you to contact the person who introduced you to your rapist? It just doesn’t make any sense. Like I said, I’m not commenting on female on male rape. I believe it can happen. But I do not believe this particular story. I’m not an amateur at fraud detection either. It’s something I’m pretty familiar with.
Is marital rape possible in the absence of a physical threat?
Under UK law, rape of any kind requires physical force or threat of physical force. The situation may be different in the US, and possibly duress of another kind, such as blackmail, may be sufficient to prove rape. (Nobody has demonstrated this for definite on this thread.)
Since 1993, marital rape has been treated like any other kind of rape, so yes, there must be, in the UK, a physical threat for marital rape, generally the husband’s superior physical strength.
Of course, marital rape, like date rape, is difficult to prove.
It is interesting that those PJM readers commenting on my post about Heather Mac Donald, linked above, were quick to say that women who got drunk and went off with strangers were partly responsible for any rape that happened, and that their behaviour made it not really rape. They were drunken sluts who were asking for it. And yet on this thread, a man who behaves unwisely, gets drunk and goes to a motel room with an unknown woman, is deserving of sympathy.
In my opinion, they are both victims and both deserving of sympathy. But they don’t appear to be getting it equally.
I stand by my earlier opinion, and think Helen has been taken in by her generous spirit, with reason also giving way to the story’s flattery of and usefulness to her particular pet issues and agendas. The implication that maintaining skepticism about a man with a long internet trail of kookery and attention-seeking is “bigotry” or hypocrisy is beneath her.
I have another criticism – A better friend and advisor, in my view, would advise discretion in putting this story abroad, at least until he was further along in therapy and was more in control of his impulse to create a storm around himself.
While it may well have been unconsciously done, can you deny the lure of bringing “light” onto a serious men’s issue might have interfered in what a pychiatrist or psychologist would think best for this man (someone with enough quirks, eccentricities and personal baggage to suspect, if not diagnose outright, some mental instability or personality disorder)?
He may shout it from the rooftops if he wants, but he himself admits that stressing his uncontrollable, magnificent erections, through wind snow and alcohol. would lead to suspicion of what he might be getting out of relating such a tale. And in fact I think he is getting the secondary gain he always wished for: attention, and lots of it.
And not accruing to the benefit of rape victims, of either sex.
Whether we call it “rape” or we call it “sexual assualt”, the issues are, did he give consent (difficult if he was unconscious), and was he coerced (for a young marine, the threat of rape charges might be damned terrifying). As for maintaining an erection, that’s mechanical, and it can be annoyingly separated from emotional timing,appropriateness or interest. Perhaps, the problem for some posters, is that “real” men never turn down the opportunity to stick their dicks in whatever oriface is available – woman, man, beast – but most well-balanced guys I have known are at least occasionally selective. In fact, most guys I know have turned down at least one opportunity at some point in their lives because they were not in the mood, or they were not interested in the particular partner, or they had moral or health qualms.
I am happy to say that I have never been in Mike’s shoes. I have never passed out drunk, but I sure have stayed in my share of unofficial hostels, campgrounds and cheap flophouse rooms; the kinds of places where I could easily have woken to find myself in the middle of being sexually assaulted. While I have avoided sexual assualt, I was once robbed while being a good samaritan. I once picked up a hitch hiker (I know, that makes it all my fault) in the middle of a sweltering desert. I drove him several hundred miles, bought him dinner when I stopped at some fast food place, and then, because it was cold as hell, let him sleep in my car while I camped. I woke to find that my camera and stereo were gone; fortunately, my car was still there. Should I have “known better”? Sure, but it is sad to have to spend one’s life fearing strangers and avoiding random acts of kindness. His actions are the reason that I no longer pick up hitchhikers, which is sad luck for folks out there who are just trying to get from one place to another. Did I report the theft to the authorities? The highway patrol guy was NOT sympathetic; I got a “you shouldn’t have worn a short dress” kind of glare.
Another Kevin M writes:
“Nick–what part of “disappeared” don’t you understand? Again, this took place in 1990, when few people besides doctors had cell phones. Don’t you think that, if he’d been able to call his friend and demand that he get back there and deal with this woman, that he would have?”
They did have phones in 1990. They also had other means of communication too. Assume this had happened to you, don’t you think you would have contacted this person at some point to find out where they ran off to and learn as much as possible about the crazy person that raped you? It defies logic to have no curiosity whatsoever about exactly how this person ended being your responsibility.
The reverse sexism in evidence on this thread is astounding. Largely, the women have absolutely no empathy with this male victim of coerced sex, but if their bosses at the office hit them up this way, well, there would be hell to pay, lawyers to pay, and the justice system may even exact its pound of flesh too. What a sick, damned society we’ve become when the moral imagination is stunted this way. O.K., let me get this straight: only women can claim rape as a crime.
If I were not a happily married man, I think otherwise I’d want to be a monk, given the overall ethical I.Q. of so many women out there now.
What have we, the hated Caucasian males done that is so awful to reap this harvest of bitter fruit? Have we treated women so awfully that we deserve such scorn?
I have one thing to say to the women of our civilization: you think you’ve been wronged and that men deserve neither respect nor compassion? Try living in an Islamic culture for a few years with the kinds of male pigs from that culture. By the way, many years ago before I met my wife and before I had left the Jesuit seminary, my wife was nearly date-raped by a wealthy Saudi male in Washington, D.C. Fortunately, my wife was not drunk and she gave him a good, hard shove out her apartment door and then dead-bolted the door.
Ladies, grow up and expand your minds. Your Leftist, femminist, socialist profs in college poisoned your minds. Men can indeed be made victims of sexual power plays and even coerced sex. Bah, I don’t even know why I waste bandwidth arguing this point…
fred: I lived in Saudi Arabia for 4 years. Your points are ON THE MARK! “Male pig” doesn’t even come close to covering the point! YOU ROCK!
Please, let’s cease and desist with the “what ‘is’ is” regarding legal definitions. This isn’t a court, it’s a blog. We discuss social issues. It’s not presumed that the law is correct, and that’s that. The question is a moral question: can a man be put into this kind of helpless and humiliating (and potentially dangerous) situation with impunity? I don’t think anyone has made an effective case that that’s not true. I don’t particularly care what the legal definition of rape is in Timbuktu.
The story seems to be quite possible, and Mike was evidently quite powerless. It is rape in any common understanding of the word: this is sex without consent.
It is nice to see that those who deny “women can rape” know little about erection (at least no practical knowledge). Does this correlation extends beyond this commentors?
I don’t particularly care what the legal definition of rape is in Timbuktu.
Neither do I. It’s just that when I used a layman’s definition (from a dictionary) everyone jumped on their legal high horse and got ever so sniffy.
So now rape is what we want we want it to be? Great. Mike was telling the truth, but then so were some of those women dismissed for “crying rape”.
Mary,
You are familiar with rhetoric, aren’t you? The examples I have read re: women incapacitated are along this route (a great majority at least):
Functions X and Y are presumed to be given equal response for similar situations Z. If X is presumed at fault for situation Z, then Y should be presumed at fault for situation Z.
The reason they are saying this is because, in this case it is heavily presumed at this date that a woman cannot give consent when inebriated. The commenters are not loooking for an excuse to get women drunk and take advantage of them, they are looking for the opposite reaction of men getting the same courtesy in the same situations.
I also do not care about the law, per se. At one point, there were people that essentially were not human according to the law, yet it was the law at fault not the people.
I agree that men and women do not seem to be receiving the same amount of sympathy, but it seems to me that the men are getting the short end of the stick.
Mary Jackson, you’re dualling with a strawman. No one here was claiming that all rape accusations from women are “crying rape”. But realistically, some are. You can’t presume either way. That’s the whole point here.
The law has to operate on guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. The issue is that it’s up to a jury to decide what the threshold is for “beyond a reasonable doubt”, and they will be influenced by these social constructs. If a large swath of the public believes that women are generally telling the truth in rape cases, there will be a high conviction rate. If they believe that men aren’t telling the truth, there won’t be convictions, and in all likelihood, there won’t even be a trial, because the police and prosecutors won’t pursue it.
As several people have said above, the most likely outcome of reporting the crime would be HIS prosecution. I suppose that you’re fine with “blame the victim”, like they do to women in Iran?
James Landrith…
I applaud you for coming forward- you had a choice between keeping it quiet and drowning in your pain- and speaking up about it to let other men know that they don’t have to feel alone. You chose to speak up and let other men know that they don’t have to remain silent. Don’t listen to the negative comments- they can not help but be ignorant and rude. I believe you- And you know what happened.
I too, Am a rape survivor- I was sexually abused from the age of 8 to 16 and raped at 17 by a relative. I kept quiet for a long time because I was embarressed. You inspire me to tell my story from the highest point possible. I offer any support that I can- Because I have been there.
To all those who don’t think that Men can be raped… It happens.. YOU NEVER THINK that it can happen to you- until it does and then you sit there a little less sure of yourself- a little less smug- maybe even a little scared. I didn’t think that I could be raped- That made me too sure of myself and I was raped… I AM NOT SAYING THAT IT WAS MY FAULT- Because it wasn’t.
The people on here who are so fucking ignorant that they can’t believe that men CAN AND DO get raped make me sick- That’s like you saying that boys can not be abused- they can- I would say go out and get raped but I am not sick like that..
I just hope that when a person close to you is raped- you don’t try to help because they need to heal and come to beleive that it was not their fault and be believed- Not told that they are making it up or are going to burn in hell for it. I mean seriously I probably would have killed myself if I had people like some of the people in here “helping” me. With people like you- who needs enemies?
I’m floored. Absolutely floored.
He was forced to submit to sex against his will. That is rape. That anyone would argue otherwise just hurts my brain.
SarahW…
Are you a mental Health Professional? Are you a counselor? Do you know what it is like to be raped? To feel unsafe in your own skin? To feel IF ONLY you had done something different- it wouldn’t have happened If you are NOT- I suggest that you either go to school and become one or sit down and shut it!
It seems to me that you have a big habit of going off half cocked- GOD I am so glad that you are NOT a friend of mine- I don’t need someone like you around me who would tell me to my face that It wasn’t my fault and then spread all over the net that I secretly wanted it-
Seriously get a life honey- People don’t like the way you go about this stuff.
oh and SarahW…
QUIT STALKING PEOPLE SERIOUSLY IF YOU WANT TO KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT SOMEONE ASK THEM- DON’T GO BEHIND THEIR BACKS AND STALK THEM- Otherwise you could end up being stalked right back!!!
We are dealing with something that is way far above the ethical and rhetorical skills of lawyers. Coerced sex is abusive, wrong, and it is indeed rape. The sex of the victim does not matter. Women tend to be most of the victims of this crime. That issue is never in doubt. But men are also subjected to this crime. In a variety of ways and in a variety of circumstances – and, yes, women do it too.
The word play about definitions of rape reminds me of the preposterous word games played by Bubba Billy Clinton when it came time for that fool to be deposed. Oh, how I despise lawyers…
Men do not have a monopoly on sociopathy and narcissism – the lack of empathy for victims.
This crime is probably under reported because it is extremely humiliating for a man to come forward about a crime like this committed against him. The idea is that women, being physically weaker, who rape a man not only violate his personhood, but destroy his sense of being a man. Other men are likely to laugh at him, or mock him for complaining about the free goodies. It’s just sick and sordid.
, the women have absolutely no empathy with this male victim of coerced sex, but if their bosses at the office hit them up this way, well, there would be hell to pay, lawyers to pay, and the justice system may even exact its pound of flesh too.
It is unfortunate that this thread has turned into some sort of bashing women thread, since it seems like the most inflamatory remarks (ie, get over it) have come from men. And yet somehow, is the women who are at fault? I’m confused by this.
The consensus of this thread seems to be pretty reasonable:
1. The majority thinks the sex she had with him while he was unconscious is rape.
2. The jury is split on whether the stuff that happened due to blackmail is rape, and the laws don’t seem to support that that is rape.
3. It’s not a good idea to get drunk and hang out in hotel rooms with strangers.
4. A few people doubt the veracity of the story.
All this is reasonable, and there is no reason to fly off the handle about it. The doubt is the only thing that could be irritating, but when you are dealing with strangers on the internet, you just never know.
As for the larger issues, I am bit concerned with the anti-woman tone of this. Rape in general is very he said/she said in the first place, which makes it hard to punish. In a court of law, you can prove that two people were together or not, you can prove that they had sex or not and you can prove that there was some sort of violent action. If none of this occurs, you may have a problem proving it either way. This is why I am uncomfortable with the idea of prosecuting women who accuse men of rape, unless it can be without a doubt proven that they maliciously lied.
Furthermore, on this topic, I often hear from men that women are throwing false accusations around alot, particularly when stuff like the Kobe Bryant trial happens. But of all the women I know who have been raped, none of them filed charges. So there is a weird dynamic there, with some crazy women throwing accusations around and a bunch of other women actually getting raped, and being afraid to report it because all the men will think she’s like those women who throw the accustaions around and try to apparently blackmail men.
Thanks for the support Amy. You’ve been a good friend over the last few months as I’ve begun working through these issues and especially before I was able to get some professional help. It is fascinating how some people wish to disbelieve the facts of my rape simply because I mentioned that I can have an erection for a long time? Is that really something that people think I find outstanding and fantastic? Really? I was 19. This was not unusual.
Gee, I wonder why I mentioned the erection. Umm, because there are some clueless wonders who think that men can’t be erect when drunk. Mentioning that I can stay erect makes me a liar? Really? You think that is something that makes me feel good? Knowing that she raped me because she could get me hard and keep me that way? Really Sarah? Really? Really?
It was specifically mentioned in conjuction with the fact that I was passed out and inebriated when the first rape began. Facts and bragging are separate issues. If I said something about girth or width or some other ridiculous and completely unrelated detail – then that would have been bragging. I mentioned it only because I thought it relevant to explain how she could mount me and do it more than once. It was a material fact in the matter that I felt needed to be explained. This is not that difficult to comprehend. Unless one is like the great Sarah Wells who believes that men cannot be raped and then belittles them like the cyber-bully she is. This is outright shameful behaviour on her part.
Now, according to my site activity reports today, I have Sarah Wells (I believe) spending hours on my website from her comcast IP address, googling me with “landrith alcohol abuse” and other such ridiculous nonsense and visiting at least 3 times today to search for things on the site and in the Google cache. What is next Sarah? You are beginning to resemble a cyber stalker, like Amy mentioned above.
So, I’m in it for attention Mrs. Sarah Wells? Really? Is that why I have to rearrange my schedule each week to make a trip down I-495 during rush hour to attend a therapy session with a rape crisis counselor? Do you think I like using up my vacation time like that? Do you really think I like it? Is this all just a big joke to you? Really? Don’t you think I could have found something a bit less painful to “get attention” for?
Would you be surprised to know that I have volunteered to spend time working with RAINN now as well? That I want this experience to be turned from this painful memory of rape into something positive for other survivors – male or female? Did you know I’ve been posting online in support groups only because there are no local ones for men? Did you know that?
Is there anything else you’d like to know Mrs. Sarah Wells? Or is cyber-stalking me enough for you?
Lea, you’re on to something, but I think it’s more like this:
Sane people of either sex are reluctant to report rape because they don’t want the ordeal. This leaves a lot of not-so-sane people (the Duke case comes to mind) reporting it to prosecutors who may have their own agendas (Nifong comes to mind), and a lot of cases that shouldn’t be prosecuted are, and a lot of false convictions happen (as we are discovering right, left, and center by DNA evidence of men who have been wrongfully in prison for years).
It should be obvious that all false rape allegations are reported, but only a fraction of real rapes are. That’s naturally going to result in a high proportion of prosecutions of innocent people. That’s just the way it is. We can only hope the justice system does a better job than they have in the past.
Brian-
How about the scenario I described? Does that fit the definition of Rape, with the accompanying criminal and civil penalties?
I rest my case.
Lea – very sensible comments.
As I argue in my article here, which is about women but applies as much to men, with rape cases we see the limits of the law. Law and justice are not the same, particularly in rape cases. “Mike” suffered an injustice, and I can’t see an obvious legal remedy.
Does rape of men like this happen? Yes.
But this story did make my spidey-sense tingle a bit.
I Googled and found practically the same story posted by “anonymous” one month ago and attributed to a “prominent libertarian blogger”.
http://www.ifeminists.net/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.338
That doesn’t make the story false, but I hope Dr. Helen has investigated it sufficiently and satisfied herself as to its authenticity.
Shouldn’t normally expectable decent behavior be to express sympathy towards James and wish him healing and wellness?
Because if it is, I haven’t observed much normal, decent behavior in this thread.
James, I may actually have some practical helpful advice for you. Have you ever heard of EFT? It’s an acupressure tapping regimen. I recommend it highly. I do find the ‘bodily energy flow’ rationale given to explain it pretty unlikely, and the wikipedia article on it accurately points out the problems with lack of falsifiability, but I can however confirm from both personal experience and the reports of friends and acquaintances that it does usually do some good, and often quite a bit of good. I’ve used it on abuse issues from my childhood to my own great benefit, and it’s also helped my handicapped father with his fears of falling.
Gary Craig’s EFT homepage is at http://www.emofree.com/ , and Silvia Hartmann’s quick’n'easy visual walkthrough pages are at http://123eft.com/ .
Fred, your comments are great:
Men do not have a monopoly on sociopathy and narcissism – the lack of empathy for victims.
This crime is probably under reported because it is extremely humiliating for a man to come forward about a crime like this committed against him. The idea is that women, being physically weaker, who rape a man not only violate his personhood, but destroy his sense of being a man. Other men are likely to laugh at him, or mock him for complaining about the free goodies. It’s just sick and sordid.
Exactly. On one hand, we have feminists who want to keep rape marked off as their own special preserve and on the other, men who are incredulous that a 19 year old male wouldn’t jump on any skirt that came his way.
Like “Mike,” I did a very foolish thing when I was 19. I went to a frat party, drank too much and woke up from a stupor to find some strange guy on top of me. He was blind drunk too, but not so drunk he couldn’t keep his erection. I’m thankful that his frat buddies didn’t get ideas. I’m also thankful I didn’t get pregnant or catch any diseases.
I didn’t report it. (This occurred back in the mid ’70′s.) I was raised on a farm. The family style was stoicism; you took your lumps and moved on. Not only boys are raised to be tough. Also, I mainly blamed myself for being so stupid as to get drunk at a frat house among people I didn’t know well.
About 6 months after the rape, I overheard my attacker regaling his friends with tales of last weekend’s conquest at a table near mine in the Student Union. I don’t think he saw me, but if he had, it wouldn’t have mattered. I doubt he remembered me. Well, Frat Boy was telling his buddies that he had been so smashed the previous Friday night he hadn’t realized the “chick” he had picked up was “coyote-ugly.” Man, was she hot stuff in the sack, though! I had to restrain myself from turning and hurling my can of Tab straight at his face. I’m really sorry now, that I didn’t do something. You have no idea how the thought of that jerk getting off scot free (and going on to do the same to other women) bothers me when I think about it.
Some of these comments sound exactly like something Frat Boy would say. Stick it in, anyplace, anytime – when opportunity knocks, “a real man” doesn’t back down.
I’d like to think that the good and decent men in my life might have some qualms about having sex with a drunken 19 year old who is 6 months pregnant. But then the good and decent men in my life don’t see women as notches in the bedpost.
Can I say Hogwash? Of course I can. Hogwash. Pregnant woman rapes drunken marine in motel room, not once but at least twice. Of course he can keep it up for hours and have her carrying on like a banshee nymph. The only thing missing from this picture is the sign that says “Please do not feed the marine viagra!”
Mallet:
The only thing that is hogwash is your support for rapists.
Jim C:
Yes that is my story. I’ve known Wendy for years and I informed Dr Smith that I had also reached out to her. And yes, Dr. Smith is fully well aware that it was published elsewhere as well. I’ve been exchanging emails with her for weeks. She has been a wonderful and supportive person in our interactions over the last 6 weeks or so.
Geoff: “To “Snoop”, etc – I don’t believe for a minute that you’ve never done anything really stupid in your life.”
Hi Geoff! Yes, I have done stupid things in my life. I’ve never suggested anything to the contrary. The difference between me and whiners like you & “Mike”, is that I take responsibility for my actions & choices.
I don’t need to have a national whine-festival to air my damaged sensibilities. Share THAT with your therapist.
Donna:
I’m sorry to hear that you endured that, but grateful you have the humanity to recognize rape for what it is – unlike some others, who think that all men want all women all the time.
Hey kids, it’s James Landrith! I thought we were only going to have a solitary declaration of outrage from you?
But it turns out you have quite a following here! So many people who care… …care about YOU, James. How long do you plan to ride this masturbatorial train, James? The rest of your life?
I know, you could start a t-a-l-k show. Every day we could wallow endlessly through every facet of you victim-ness, analyzing it from hundreds of different angles, and asking all the previously un-asked “what-ifs”. You could add a whole new tab to your web site!
Heck, you might even get elected to the school board!
Donna,
Most guys who join frats are not worth anyone’s time, least of all their own. Having been a university student (but not a frat boy)and a soldier before I went to college, I can attest one certain thing: a bunch of infantry grunts who are used to rough language and rough living would find frat boys foul, without character, and certainly not gentlemen. Vast majority of soldiers I served with would never rape anyone. Shhhsh. Don’t tell the Leftie Moonbats that: they think all soldiers and Marines are rapists and murderers.
I am sorry to hear about what happened to you when you were a 19 year old college student. I wish you had found a way to get even with that roustabout. Rapists are among the most rank of human beings – and to call them human beings is a stretch.
i was always imagine, if i am being raped by women, it was very lucky to me. but, after read this story, i begin to fear and think, there is no luck being raped.
I wanted to repeat something said awhile ago. Rape is about power. Clearly in this case the woman had power. “Mike” also didn’t give consent to having sex either. And for the people who say suck it up and such, you have nooo idea of what it is like to be raped! Being a rape survivor I’ve had to deal with so many things and saying suck it up makes me angry. I mean the flashbacks, nightmares, and stress it puts on you and others around you. I wake up in the middle of the night in tears trying to fight off someone who isn’t even there. Rape is a big deal and happens WAY too much!!
James, thanks for getting your story out there!! Rape happens around the world soo much more than people know and the more we talk about it and the more people know about it the better chance we have at preventing future rapes. Hang in there James!!!
About eight years ago my doctor was, as usual, upbraiding me for my inability to deal with certain aspects of my life. After telling me he could see me dead within a few years he said “if you were a woman I’d be thinking you’d been sexually abused”. He did a double take at this point. He knew my history. Within days I was off to my town’s sexual assault counselling service. Even then I went there thinking I was the only one. To this point I’m still among the living.
At that time I was forty years of age. The rape I experienced at the hands of an aunt occured when I was eight, decades earlier. I’m an individual thoroughly embedded in politics and community issues – even rape activism in the early eighties – and have been since a very early age. How could I have got to that age still in denial of my experience and it’s impact on myself?
As I’ve learned more recently male victims tend to remain invisible. My “coming out” in my forties is the norm rather than the exception. Like myself most male victims only emerge when health issues make it imperative and denial is no longer an option.
Like James I have chosen to speak out rather than fester in silence. My good fortune is that child sexual abuse is generally taken seriously and I am able to occasionally find some traction. But I do encounter the same resistance to any acknowledgement that there may be some women who are predatory.
About six months ago I put together a brief examination of the social forces at work which marginalise male victims. There are a number of intersecting elements at play but the upshot is that male victims have no belief that they will be taken seriously and every expectation they will be pilloried. Thus they remain in isolation. In summary…
Western culture has always denied the possibility of the female sexual predator.
Feminist activism forms the basis of almost all advocacy on the issue of sexual abuse. Personally I understand their one sidedness as their targeted demographic is female victims who are almost exclusively abused by male abusers. It is consequently portrayed as a manifestation of the patriarchy(“rape culture”). The female offender is never acknowledged which feeds into and enhances the larger cultural denial.
Despite acknowledgement within the medical, psychological and counselling communities that boys are at least as harmed by the experience as girls our culture remains largely ignorant of this and, thus, indifferent. Widely held views are that boys should consider themselves lucky or even privileged. The general concensus seems to be that no harm is done.
The media refuses to give it it’s true name prefering to use terms such as “affair” or “relationship” in reporting these cases. They also tend to be far more forgiving of the female offender and frequently try to make their excuses for them.
Community standards, influenced by the intersection of advocacy, media and the judicial system’s lenient treatment of female offenders, have no encouragement to change.
While I wrote this with child sexual abuse in mind many of the elements still apply to the adult scenario. In some respects even more so. I had a similar experience to James during my mid twenties and while counsellors suggest it is more problematic than my childhood experience I remain reluctant to talk about it. I greatly admire James’ courage – YES COURAGE – in speaking out.
One of the great inhibitors to female rape victims reporting is their expectation that they will encounter scepticism. I would urge everybody to reflect on some of the comments here. Disbelief, blame, scepticism, shaming, even mockery is what male victims face. To some here I’ll make it simple. You’ve engaged in nothing more than pure, unadulterated cruelty.
Brian-
Yeah, thought so. Hint: It is.
Donna-
The ironic thing is that I when I went to college I knew a girl, also named Donna, that made false sex claims. Women like that ruin things for actual victims like yourself.
Fred-
Do you think you should be generalizing about men in fraternities like that? They are a large group after all. You’re likely defaming a lot of people. That isn’t too cool if you’re the plain talking person you seem to claim to be.
celebrim:
Agreed about the story: It’s odd a Marine would react that way to having someone he didn’t want on top of him. I’m guessing it’s a bit fabricated.
How about: guy wakes up to getting blown, she mounts him, and conceives, contacting him 7 months later that she is bearing his child…
That I believe. A Marine and a pregnant woman, him years later recounting the time he got smashed yet wanted to play “Good Samaritan” to the pregnant woman at the bar… Sorry, once he awoke and regained his “power”, that really can’t be characterized as rape. Drunken manipulation, yes.
Helen, the way to help the guys win is not to adopt the sorry tactics the left has used supposedly on behalf of women for years. You have to take on that stuff, not weaken men by pretending they are “victims”; hell, everyone’s a victim.
The little bit about the Marine remembering years later being “sore” that next morning is just too much over the top. His penis was chafed? If she was enjoying herself, she was rubbing herself raw? Or the Marines’ muscles were hurt as she manipulated his body into position while he was passed out drunk? I don’t believe a Marine would use the word “sore”.
[ps: Was John Althouse Cohen aboard on this one? Because his prison rape scenario is far, far different and your "rape" scene here diminishes that surely.]
Anonymous:
Post with your real name when calling me a liar.
Yes, I was sore. Yes, she raped me. You are why men like me never come forward when raped.
And “drunken manipulation” is a nice way of saying that you are making excuses for rapists. Something you’ve done that you’d like to admit to?
Yes, you are a coward for posting anonymously.
Further my cowardly anonymous friend, how does being a Marine make me a liar for telling my story? Noting that I was sore, after being raped makes me a liar? I’ve never forgotten that detail. She raped me twice during the night. She was on me and I passed back out. Then, she was on me again when I woke and up and ordered me to be still and be quiet or she’d accuse me of rape. THAT IS RAPE, not something called “drunken manipulation” which sounds like something you may done before, given your need to invalidate my experience.
Or do you have some stereotype of Marines that you like to promote?
Your posting is simply shameful and the fact that you do so anonymously speaks volumes about your character.
Then, she was on me again when I woke and up and ordered me to be still and be quiet or she’d accuse me of rape. THAT IS RAPE, not something called “drunken manipulation” which sounds like something you may done before, given your need to invalidate my experience.
I know that sucked and it was a bad position to be put in. I am glad you have shared your story because if you notice in the comments, many people have heard similar stories and dismissed them. I myself heard relayed one that I always thought was suspect and I am rethinking it now. I agree that everything that happened when you were unconscious was rape.
But it’s not unreasonable to draw a line and call blackmail blackmail and not rape. You could physically remove yourself at this point, an option most women don’t have when faced with a similar situation. I personally would draw the rape line at the point when you are either physically incapable of getting away or you are reasonably threatened with violence if you try to get away. You were in a different situation (at this point, not before) and I don’t think you should take people’s disagreement with you about this part personally, because it’s really more about where the line is. Nobody is saying that the women should have done that, it’s pretty terrible and as a woman, it pisses me off, because then whenever a woman says someone raped her, men think of these crazy women and dismiss it. It hurts all of us!
I do think there should probably be some legal name for “drunken manipulation” or whatever we want to call it. Blackmail is already illegal, would that count?
THAT IS RAPE, not something called “drunken manipulation” which sounds like something you may done before, given your need to invalidate my experience.
Now who’s being inflamatory? Really, everybody thinks what happened to you sucks. But I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that what happened when you were unconscious was rape and what happened afterwards (when you would have been physically able to remove yourself) was something else. Not something good, just something else.
And stop saying everyone who posts anonymously is a terrible person, because not everybody wants to give out all their information on a public forum.
I asked a specific question. Can a man be “forced” to maintain an erection. Kevin M. says he can. “A man can be in a complete state of terror and be forced into an erection and ultimately ejaculation.” Is that explained and scientifically documented in Peter Anderson’s book? If so, I may buy it. Does Dr. Helen agree?
Mr. Landrith says, “She could get me hard and keep me hard. . .” – apparently against his will – not only when he was drunk but also when, finally, sober. Unless what Kevin M. says is true, I think he’s seeing Dr. Helen about the wrong problem. Dr. Helen: How would you counsel a man who can be “terrorized” into an getting an maintaining an erection?
I would like to thank mike for his service to our country and wish him only the. Very best. Believe him, or not, shame on the way some of the way some of you have treated him. If he used the name Michelle to hide his idendity, you would all be outraged. Got bless you “mike”.
Sioux Lady:
It is not about being “terrorized” into getting an erection. If you want to know more about the human body and rape – take a little time and explore some rape survivor websites and books. Erections are not dictated by attraction or interest in sex. She was already on me at that point and my body responded to the physical interaction of her body. Women often stay lubricated throughout a rape and even sometimes orgasm. Such tactics are believed to be intentionally employed (ensuring the person being attacked has an orgasm) by some rapists to make a survivor feel guilty, ashamed and confused about what happened.
Lea, would you mind explaining how the attempt to compel his submission and obedience to her sexual assault through the abuse of proxy force via agents of the State is not threatening him with violence?
How is that meaningfully different from a man attempting to compel a woman to be submissive and obedient to his sexual assault by threatening her with kidnapping, robbery, and imprisonment by his posse of armed thugs at a later date?
“And stop saying everyone who posts anonymously is a terrible person, because not everybody wants to give out all their information on a public forum.”
Noooo; you stop misrepresenting things. AFAICT, he’s clearly not characterizing every anonymous poster that way; only those that engage in certain behaviors.
Lea:
You and I apparently disagree on what is and is not rape. Of course, you are also disagreeing with my counselor, dozens of other survivors I met and talked with, RAINN, MaleSurvivor, and several other rape survivor support organizations as well.
That is your opinion and this is my opinion (and that of everyone I’ve talked to within the rape survivor community). I do appreciate that you recognize it wasn’t good though.
BTW, the “anonymous” I was just responding to basically called me a liar. I reserve the right to take serious issue with such a charge.
Lea: “But it’s not unreasonable to draw a line and call blackmail blackmail and not rape. You could physically remove yourself at this point, an option most women don’t have when faced with a similar situation.”
He’d have had to push her off him, and then she could have him jailed for assault, no questions asked. If you don’t believe that could happen, re-read the comments here to see the response he could expect from the police and society in general when he tried to explain the situation. Or see the Duke “rape” case for a real-world example.
And all this just so you can maintain the privileged victim status for women. You are a card-carrying part of the problem.
This story doe snot ring true
This weirdly reminds me of how they now give flowers to men on the podium at the Olympics. It seems that the forces of feminism and metrosexuality are trying to force female behavior on men. The entire premise of this article is a joke and an attempt to feminize men.
Sioux Lady – I’m sure you’ll get lots of further responses on this, but the answer’s yes. I’m not sure whether James ever used the phrasing that he was ‘terrorized’ into an erection – it seems as though he’d got that way prior to waking up.
However (and there’s always one) – maintaining an erection in a stressful/inappropriate situation, when you’re 19, really, really isn’t difficult.
My specific question to you, is whether you believe that hypothetically – discounting James’ story as an utter fabrication – would this have constituted a criminal act … which brings me to Lea …
… who believes that what happened to James wasn’t rape, but was ‘something else, not something good, just something else’.
Everyone gets it. The issue arose earlier in the thread. Someone commented that it seemed that a number of the (apparent) women who have commented seemed to want to reserve ‘rape’for their exclusive use. I was dismissive at the start, but what I’ve seen since does support that observation.
Incidentally, to use a prior analogy again, Lea, let’s bid the issue down. Your boss hauls you into a closet and molests you. You’re sexually assaulted for 10 minutes or so. You get out, and you tell a male co-worker what happened, and what’s your reaction when he says ‘Oh really, I’m sure everyone can agree that sucks’.
The odd thing is that you seem to be of the opinion that James was initially raped, but what happened afterwards was something ‘lesser’. So what? “I know I raped her, but after a while, she seemed to be enjoying it so I bought her a box of candy and booked some tickets for us to go see “Mama Mia”?
It doesn’t SUCK Lea, PMS *SUCKS*, Premature Ejaculation *SUCKS*, not finding a parking space *SUCKS*. Being sexually assaulted does not *SUCK*. Rape’s rape. It’s a crime.
When you have been the victim of a crime, you are … well … you’re a VICTIM. When victims are doubted, and then grudgingly told that they might actually be telling the truth, but are then brushed off and told to suck it up, or ‘be a man’.
While on college campus “date rape” may be discussed and treated with the same magnitude as “stranger/violent rape”. Outside the campus I think you would not find that to be the case. Can a man be “date raped” by a women – I say yes probably pretty common. Can a man be “stranger/violent raped” by a women – I never heard of it but I guess it could happen.
I bet if you switched the sexes in this scenario a lot of people still would not call it rape.
Lea writes:
You could physically remove yourself at this point, an option most women don’t have when faced with a similar situation.
Actually, they would. “Mike” said that he was extremely drunk and that the rapist threatened to claim rape if he tried to do anything. Granted, the latter part would not work in the reverse. The former, however, occurs quite often. Women who claim date rape often report being too drunk and too confused to do anything, not that they were physically being restrained or were specifically threatened. So women faced with a similar situation do have the option of physically removing themselves, they simply do not, perhaps out of confusion, intoxication, being drugged, some form of coercion or fear.
I personally would draw the rape line at the point when you are either physically incapable of getting away or you are reasonably threatened with violence if you try to get away.
If you did that then the overwhelming majority of women’s unwanted sexual contact would never count as rape or sexual assault (definition of which depends on the state). Ironically, the overwhelming majority of children’s unwanted sexual contact would never count as rape or sexual assault either.
You were in a different situation (at this point, not before) and I don’t think you should take people’s disagreement with you about this part personally, because it’s really more about where the line is.
No, it is not. Mary Jackson’s disagreement with “Mike” has nothing to do with a line, just to do with her political views and her attitude that no woman is capable of raping or sexually abusing a man or boy. The same sentiment is carried by many other people commenting here. The blackmail “issue” is just a means of justifying what is clearly a double standard and what is clearly people excusing and mocking someone’s rape.
I do think there should probably be some legal name for “drunken manipulation” or whatever we want to call it. Blackmail is already illegal, would that count?
Some states have adopted laws counting any sexual act committed on a female while she is intoxicated as rape regardless of whether she gives consent. While the law is specifically gender neutral, the only instances that it has been applied in (to my knowledge) involves cases of date rape against women, not date rape against men or boys. Technically though, “Mike’s” rape would fall into the date rape category.
However, it seemingly has not occurred to the people attacking and mocking James that he could be raped and blackmailed at the same time. Ironically, this act is not uncommon. Child rapists do the exact same thing to children all the time. They rape them (usually by coercing them into sex) and then blackmail them into keeping silent. I would imagine that in instances involving female child rapists people like Mary Jackson would argue that no rape occurred and that no harm was done to the child, particularly if the child were a boy. However, in instances involving male child rapists most people would agree that any form of coercion would be part of the rape, that it would not be a separate, unrelated and probably consensual and harmless act. The same would be true of male-on-female assaults. So it makes little sense that it should not apply in female-on-male assaults.
Mary Jackson would argue that no rape occurred and that no harm was done to the child, particularly if the child were a boy.
Rubbish. My very first comment is clear that this is abuse, and very wrong. I have not commented on child abuse by women, but of course it is to be condemned and does immeasurable harm.
My disagreement is with the view that it is rape. This is not a disagreement of principle, but one of law, which defines rape narrowly as penetration by a penis. As such it can only be perpetrated by a man. Sexual assault, which may be more serious in some cases, may be perpetrated by both sexes.
If a man had penetrated “Mike”, that would be rape. What this woman did was sexual assault. As to which is the more traumatic, that is not for me to judge.
Mary Jackson’s assertion that “Under UK law, rape of any kind requires physical force or threat of physical force” is absolutely untrue. All it requires is a lack of consent.
When I was at school, more than twenty years ago, it was emphasised to us (by a visiting police officer) that getting a woman drunk to “take advantage of her” was rape, and would be treated as such by the law.
Not only that, but her quotation from Merriam Webster is incomplete – here is the full quote:
“unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will usually of a female or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent because of mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconsciousness, or deception —see also STATUTORY RAPE”
(found at http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rape)
Note that since “Mike” was drunk and asleep at the time intercourse commenced, he was doubly “incapable of valid consent”, due to both “intoxication” and “unconsciousness”.
I’m sure rape laws do vary from state to state (I’m British, and our legal definition probably varies too.) However, most definitions are likely to involve force or threat of injury, rather than pressure or blackmail (including over a job).
It is fairly simple to find states’ rape laws. I did so in a couple of minutes. Most of the laws include in first-degree rape or first-degree sexual assault (not every state uses the term “rape”) some clause referring to the victim being incapable of consent due to alcohol, drugs or some other mental deficiency. Some laws include clauses that could count blackmail or coercion as part of the rape. Others do not and other relegate it to lesser forms of sexual assault. However, such an act could be counted as a kidnapping charge, which ironically tends to carry a harsher sentence than many rape laws.
Similarly, I found this legal definition of rape:
“The crime of rape (or “first-degree sexual assault” in some states) generally refers to non-consensual sexual intercourse that is committed by physical force, threat of injury, or other duress. A lack of consent can include the victim’s inability to say “no” to intercourse, due to the effects of drugs or alcohol. Rape can occur when the offender and victim have a pre-existing relationship (sometimes called “date rape”), or even when the offender is the victim’s spouse.
Under a variation known as “statutory rape,” some states make it unlawful for an adult to engage in sexual intercourse with a person who has not reached the age of consent (usually 18 years of age).”
If one were inclined to actually find the legal standard for rape in the United States, one could with great ease. One did not, which implies that one’s reasoning has very little to do with actual definitions and more to do with one’s personal belief that no woman can forcibly sexually assault a man or boy.
In that case it becomes sexual assault at the most rather than rape. This doesn’t mean it wasn’t traumatic, or that “Mike” doesn’t deserve sympathy.
Actually, it does considering that the only reason one is not calling his assault rape is because of his gender and one’s political views, not because of what the rapist did to him.
However, given that men are stronger than women in all but a few cases, rape of men by women is very rare.
That is quite the logical fallacy and also quite unlikely. Following that logic, no child can assault an adult, no boy can rape a woman, no dog, cat, tiger, lion or wolf can harm a human, no insects can harm humans, snakes cannot take down larger animals, etc. Just because something or someone is seemingly bigger, taller and stronger does not mean someone smaller, shorter and physically weaker than them cannot overpower and control them.
The reason women raping men and boys seems rare is because the victims are extremely unlikely to report it and, to be blunt, it is because of the kinds comments one has made on this site why those victimized men and boys do not come forward. And in all likelihood, there are probably men and boys who will (or have) happen upon this article and read one’s comments and keep silent rather than come forward.
Mary, you can disagree all you like; the law in your jurisdiction does not classify what happened as rape, laws enacted in other jurisdictions do.
There just has to be some reason why you’re clinging to this shibboleth that if there’s no penetration, it can’t be rape.
All of you non believers should be ashamed of yourselves.
Who are you to tell someone that their story isn’t true?
Were you there?
No.
Just because he was a man and she was a pregnant woman, means nothing.
I, as a female, was raped. And you know what, no one believed my story. It’s the same deal.
But it happened.
If you don’t believe it, keep it to yourself.
That’s the last thing a rape victim needs, is to find out that there are a bunch of assholes out there who are going to doubt their story and vocalize that
“You and Jim do not like that.”
Brian, you have no idea what I don’t like. What i don’t like is inequality befiore the law. turn it around – why should a woman’s fragile feelings send a man to jail for doing what her body is designed for anyway? what’ she got that thing down there for if not for sex? Who is she to whine about some sex? That’s what you’re saying, really.
This is absolutley not about someone’s hurt feelings of being raped. it is about equality before the law, and too many people have died to preserve this Constituiton for some wannabe macho idiot to erode it one injustice at a time.
And all this just so you can maintain the privileged victim status for women. You are a card-carrying part of the problem.
No, YOU are a part of the problem because this is not about women/men. This is a perfectly reasonable difference of opinion on where the line is drawn. I feel the same way about a woman or a man. If someone is arguing you into something, I don’t feel that is the same thing as when someone is forcing you into something physically (I am counting ‘arguing’ as different from threat with a weapon).
The odd thing is that you seem to be of the opinion that James was initially raped, but what happened afterwards was something ‘lesser’.
Did I say ‘lesser’? No. Something very, very bad, if that makes you feel better. I used the example earlier and I will use it again, if someone’s boss tells them they will be fired and humiliated if they don’t sleep with them they still have a choice of refusal. It’s still a Very. Bad. Thing. I just wouldn’t call that rape, personally.
And all the points about children should be left out, because we are talking about a grown man. Not the same thing at all. And to other points, sure you can be raped and then blackmailed, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t two different things.
Why are people not allowed to have a different opinion without being demonized anymore? This is what I hate about politics, pc nonsense and everything else all rolled into one. Sheesh.
Lea, when you type something like:
“But it’s not unreasonable to draw a line and call blackmail blackmail and not rape.”
What that says to me is that you’re trying to characterize blackmail as being a ‘lesser’ offense than rape. If I’m misconstruing what you mean, I’d be happy to revise my conclusions.
And for the nonce, this is nothing to do with politics, and very little to do with political correctness, it’s about whether society treats just about half of its population in a fair and equitable manner ; and if you consider that being called in what seems to be supporting a double standard ‘being demonized’, then I’m sorry. Because my opinion is that you’re wrong.
Mary Jackson’s assertion that “Under UK law, rape of any kind requires physical force or threat of physical force” is absolutely untrue
That was not my assertion. However, for rape to be proved, there usually does have to be force of some kind.
the only reason one is not calling his assault rape is because of his gender and one’s political views, not because of what the rapist did to him.
Wrong, yet again. I am not calling it rape becaue the law would be unlikely to call it rape. Perhaps the law should be changed. That is a valid argument. If it was rape, under the law of the state where it took place, then “Mike” should have pressed charges. End of story.
Nobody apart from me has asked what state the incident with “Mike” took place in, and whether what happened would be seen as rape under the law of that state. I think this question is very important.
I’m seeing an interesting pattern emerging in the comments: women who have been raped believe him, and are appalled at the denial. Primarily women who haven’t been raped are doing the denying.
Draw your own conclusions.
A woman straddling a man’s erect penis is not rape, drunk or not. Unless, she 1) has him tied up. 2) instead of sitting on his erect penis she is plunging a beer can into his anus. 3) unless he is a minor. then you have child abuse issues.
Dr. Helen is truly the most unabashed misogonist female on the internets today. Rather than talk about the brutal deaths of female military at the hands of fellow males in the military or why female soldiers know better than to drink liquids at night for fear they’ll be attacked at the latrines by their male commrades, or even why such incidents go blatantly unreported and uncharged, she continually dreams up these articles on 1 in 1 trillion accounts of “poor men” getting raped to full ejaculation.
Dr. Helen, advocate for missing children. advocate for the college women who get kidnapped and are later found dead. advocate for the women and little girls who are being forced to have sex for food by UN peacekeepers. Advocate for the muslim women who dead under honour killings. Advocate for the 8 yr old girl who was viciously raped by her 250 lb stepfather that she had to have surgery because of and while you’re at it advocate that yes maybe some people that that rapist should be sentenced to death. Tell us, or explain to us WHY such things happen to women, to little girls and to little boys, mostly at the hands of men. I’d be interested to hear your professional Doctorly take on that, or is it that the actual, forceable, soul damaging as well as body damaging rape of women is not as exciting and therefore doesn’t get you enough hits? Let’s here something profound from the good Doctor besides your attempted portrayals of males as the world’s helpless victims.
Mary,
Thanks for speaking up and not letting this absurdity go unchallenged.
Forgive me but the very idea of a 19 year old military man, who’d been in a bar, drinking, most likely with the thought of hooking up takes a pregnant woman to a hotel room where unwanted (supposedly by him) sex occured not once but twice and 17 years later he is calling it rape?
As much as I would like to buy it, I am simply not convinced. Either way, I’m happy to see the man is feeling better now for having gotten it off his chest.
“Mary Jackson’s assertion that “Under UK law, rape of any kind requires physical force or threat of physical force” is absolutely untrue
That was not my assertion.”
Yes, it was your assertion – I copied and pasted it from your post from 30 June, 2008 at 1:55 pm, which is why it is in quote marks.
I’ve never been raped, but I have been a pregnant woman and I have had a 19 year old boyfriend (when I was much younger), and I would like to add three facts about pregnant women to the mix:
(1) pregnant women are often horny as hell, partly from hormones and partly because they’re not in danger of getting pregnant, seeing as how they’re already there.
(2) 19-year-olds are not likely to know this, as they and their friends with whom they discuss sexual issues have likely not lived with a pregnant woman other than possibly their mother, and their mother would likely not have explained it to them.
(3) 19-year-olds are also not likely to have had experience having sex with a pregnant woman and so are unlikely to know what force can be used against a pregnant woman without harming the woman. Mike’s erring on the side of caution is totally understandable in this light.
This point may have been made before. I don’t have time to read all of these comments. Men have erections through out the night—it has nothing to do with attraction or sex. I have had women tell me that they take advantage to this fact frequently. If its unwelcome, its rape.
“Dr. Helen is truly the most unabashed misogonist female on the internets today.”
Project much? What a man-hating bigot, and totalitarian too, telling Helen what she should blog about.
But this is a standard tactic. They call it the “oppression olympics” in the femisphere, except probably when the victims are white males. White feminists can’t tolerate any threat to their market share as trembling, dainty damsels in distress that the whole world has to jump through their rump to save and pander to. Oh, and they arrogate to themselves the advocacy for abused and starving children. Vampires.
Jim:
First, I doubt it happened.
Second, if it happened the way he described it I said it was sexual assault. It (apparently) may also be rape in some states (WV, for instance). But, was there was any real harm justifying filing a complaint or commencing prosecution? No. Did James suffer psychlogical damage under those circumstances? I don’t buy it.
Jim:
First, I don’t think the event described occurred.
Second, I already wrote that if it did occur as he described it that it would amount to sexual assault. It may even (apparently) been rape in some states (WV, for instance). However, I do not think James or any other man would have suffered psychological harm under the circumstances described. Since there was no meaningful harm, filing a complaint would not make sense and a prosecutor prosecuting it would make even less sense. I think (if it occurred) James is looking for a cause to some emotional problems he is having and he has latched onto this “event” as a cause.
I think you should look elsewhere James. I sincerely hope you feel better regardless.
DAMN, I love a good flame war!
People keep saying there was no harm done.
Wasn’t he at risk for an STD?
Wasn’t he at risk for a rape or assault accusation (if she needed an excuse for her whereabouts to a parent, husband or boyfriend)?
All intimate and sexual encounters between people are loaded with possible consequences but being drunk, coerced or incapacitated, he was unable to give consent or determine his own actions.
If this was a woman’s story there would only be support for the poor dear.
Sioux Lady-
#I asked a specific question. Can a man be “forced” to maintain an erection.#
This is a different situation from the marine’s story, but in this day an age men CAN be forced to have erections using electrical devices like these:
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6650943.html
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article56264.ece
It sounds unbelievable and crazy, but these devices exist and they are out there and being used to torture and rape people. Their existence and use is largely unknown now, but years from now (hopefully sooner) they will eventually be exposed and the public will become aware of them.
And note that when they are illegally installed you have a compound crime – you have to drug someone and perform a non-consensual medical procedure on them to install them.
ddc-
#A woman straddling a man’s erect penis is not rape, drunk or not.#
Wrong. It’s just like when male rapists drug someone unconscious and rape them.
And in this day and age devices can be used to forcefully trigger an erection – see above.
First of all, I will apologize for making the rash generalization I made about frat boys in college in my last post. I knew it was a generalization when I made it, but perhaps a tad bit of anger crept in to my thought process. Nevertheless, the college fraternity (and sorority) scenes do tend to have atmospheres of libertinism and disrespect for the opposite sex. In fairness, I do know a few fraternity guys who were not pigs when they were in college. But, I have heard stories of horrible things like what happened to “Donna” and it makes a normal guy like me very upset. If my wife had indeed been date raped by that Saudi many years ago, and I found out about it, I think I would indeed want to pay the scumbucket a visit and administer kafir justice. You have to understand: I’m Catholic, born in 1955, which means I was raised a certain way and with certain expectations of how we are to conduct ourselves. I am also the father of two teenage daughters, so you can well imagine what would happen to my blood pressure if this happened to one of my girls. And if I had sons (which I don’t)and if one of my boys was raped I’d be fit to be tied too. Next to murder, rape has to be the most heinous crime one can commit.
As for the two females on this thread, “Mary Jackson” and “Lea,” all I can say is that their lack of appreciation of the gravity and veracity of this sort of this stuns me. There is a kind of clinical coldness in how they approach this topic that is unmistakable. How this has come to be I do not know. I have never been raped, either as a child or as an adult. I’ve never been sexually molested as a child or adolescent. I’m fortunate that way, believe me I know how lucky I am. So, why is it that I can certainly appreciate the stories of “Mike” and “James” even though I was never a victim of that crime? All I can say is that human beings who lack empathy and compassion scare the dickens out of me.
In the end, it doesn’t matter. Saying that this particular incident not happening proves that rape never happens to men is like saying that the fact that the Duke rape didn’t happen proves that no rapes of women ever occur.
A little bit of logic would help this discussion.
Fred, have you actually read my posts, for example where I say (repeatedly) that what the woman did was appalling, that I sympathise with Mike, and even that what he went through might be as bad as rape?
Clearly not.
Where I disagree is that what Mike went through was legally, technically rape. It wasn’t.
Wrong, yet again. I am not calling it rape becaue the law would be unlikely to call it rape.
Actually, that was not one’s first argument. One’s first argument was:
“No, of course it isn’t. Men rape other men, and some women are stronger than men and can force them to have sex.
However, the fact is that this guy was strong enough have stopped her, which in real rape she – and it usually is a she – cannot stop him. This is abuse, and appalling behaviour, but it isn’t rape.”
Basically, one stated that this was not “real” rape because “Mike” is a man and is supposed to be stronger than women. One’s second argument was the Merriam Webster definition of rape, but that is not a legal dictionary and therefore cannot be considered a legal definition. However, it was not until people questioned the use of a clearly skewed definition of rape that one decided to ask where the rape took place. Yet even in doing this one still insisted on using the Merriam Webster definition and then turned to the UK legal definition (which is also a clearly skewed and sexist definition) to justify one’s position.
Nevertheless, one’s actual argument is clearly that a woman cannot rape a man or boy because males are supposed to be stronger and therefore incapable of being victimized. The definition acts as justification, but even in this instance it is weak justification because the laws vary from state to state (and country to country) and also because some laws are in fact bad laws, this being one of them.
Perhaps the law should be changed. That is a valid argument. If it was rape, under the law of the state where it took place, then “Mike” should have pressed charges. End of story.
The victim-blaming does not help one’s argument. All victims of rape should report it, but as one well knows there are many reasons why they will not, including people telling them that they were not really raped or victimized.
Nobody apart from me has asked what state the incident with “Mike” took place in, and whether what happened would be seen as rape under the law of that state.
And one did not ask until people questioned one’s usage of a non-legal definition of rape. Again, that does not help one’s argument. The question is important in a legal context, but not in the general context. As has been noted several times, certain states do not have the term “rape” on their books at all and instead use”sexual assault,” despite describing the exact same act. So again, the semantics one is playing has nothing to do with the law in the state where the rape took place, just with one’s personal and political opinion on whether a woman can force a man or boy into sex.
Sorry I double commented – I thought the earlier one was lost.
One last set of thoughts.
I was asking myself why I sent so much time responding to the article and the comments. I think it is because – while I abhor the power that (only) women have to claim date rape and destroy a man’s life – I think the last thing that should be done about it is for men to be countering with claims of “rape” or “sexual assault” where there is no real harm. Men don’t need to argue that they are women too.
I also think that there is an undercurrent here that there is a hidden pandemic of women raping and sexually assaulting men (equal in number to instances of men raping and sexually assaulting women). I think that is unfounded.
Finally, I am sorry, but there is a huge difference between the seriousness of what happened if you switched the sexes of the parties in the story. See the comment from JA above for the reason why. I just cannot feign the same level of concern for James than I would have for a woman in those circumstances. I don’t think most of the population could either (and I don’t think they are wrong for thinking that way) – despite the number of commenters here who seem to.
Toy Soldier – you (and others) don’t seem to be able to make your mind up whether you think the law is important or not. When I used a layman’s definition of rape, you and others jumped on your legal high horses and demanded an in-depth account of every law in every state, although not, strangely enough, the state where Mike was raped.
Mike was not raped. He was sexually assaulted. This is bad, but not rape.
Sexual attacks by women on men are statistically negligible compared with the other way round. The main reason for this is that men are stronger.
Mike could have faught this woman off. He didn’t. He could have reported the incident. He didn’t.
Brian, that is a truly disgusting, sexist and utterly moronic comment, so much so that you have lost any remote credibility, making it highly doubtful to believe that you would sympathize with any man, woman or child who was victimized. It is quite literally that kind of inane thinking that leads to men and boys remaining silent, and to be honest, the kind of sentiment that leads to further abuse and rape. At least the other dissenters had the general decency to imply that they thought this without directly saying it.
Others are less likely to be as polite in response to your rather infantile and unfortunately pro-male rape comment, however, I find it necessary to treat people who clearly lack any shred of empathy as decently as those people should treat others.
Vast majority of soldiers I served with would never rape anyone. Shhhsh. Don’t tell the Leftie Moonbats that: they think all soldiers and Marines are rapists and murderers
You don’t need to tell me that, Fred. Military service has long been a tradition among the men in my family. They might curse a blue streak when their blood is up, but I can’t imagine one of them treating a woman like that jerk treated me.
“However, I do not think James or any other man would have suffered psychological harm under the circumstances described.”
Translation: Lie back and enjoy it. What you don’t understand is that your evaluation or assessment of the harm is neither here nor there. Period. the law in most places calls this kind of behavior rape. Period. Getting a male judge and a male jury to understand that may be another matter; it is likely that female judge would not have the same problem.
Fred, in Lea’s defense, as she pointed out, it is men on this thread who are dishing out the real venom. It some form of pussy-whipped imitation of masculinity. Women like Mary and Lea are merely callous; I don’t what your expectations of women are, but it is not so strange for either a man or women to have only a clinical interest in what happens to a stranger.
Lea wonders why there is so much anger at women under the surface in this thread. It is simple – the system so obviously priveleges women both as victims and perpetrators.
re: Mary Jackson
In the previous comment by Mary Jackson, the commentator stated that “in real rape she – and it usually is a she – cannot stop him. This is abuse, and appalling behaviour, but it isn’t rape.” Legally, rape is defined as nonconsensual intercourse. Yes, the precise wording varies state-by-state, but this is the general consensus. It, however, is not defined as nonconsensual intercourse that could not have been physically prevented. Further, there have been many cases where a woman, who did not attempt to physically prevent her rape, was successful in pressing charges, and obtaining a conviction.
By arguing that this man was not raped because he could have physically stopped her, you are starting down a very slippery slope- where the next argument made could be that a woman wasn’t raped because she failed to take an opportunity to run away, or jump out a window.
When sex is forced upon a person, regardless of whether this is done physically, emotionally, or mentally, the crime at hand is rape, not sexual abuse.
Well, Heather, if it’s so clear cut that this was rape, why didn’t “Mike” press charges?
This is not rape. If a man had penetrated him it would have been rape.
Toy Soldier – you (and others) don’t seem to be able to make your mind up whether you think the law is important or not. When I used a layman’s definition of rape, you and others jumped on your legal high horses and demanded an in-depth account of every law in every state, although not, strangely enough, the state where Mike was raped.
No, I linked to a site that actually lists the rape laws of each state so that one might look at them rather than use non-legal definition. Given that “Mike” did not state where he was raped, one has no means of determining whether what occurred legally falls into the “rape” or “sexual assault” category in his state. Generally speaking, however, “Mike’s” experience is rape. It is exactly the same as what happens to women except that the roles are reversed. That is literally the only difference and in any other kind of situation one would not play this kind of semantics game, which again implies that this has more to do with one’s personal and political opinions than it does with the actual acts done.
Sexual attacks by women on men are statistically negligible compared with the other way round. The main reason for this is that men are stronger.
Actually, the main reason is because males do not report their abuse, not because women do not rape men and boys. The majority of professional therapists and social scientists who work with, treat and study male victims agree on that. Again, if one were inclined to look one would find recent studies demonstrating that nearly 40% of the people to rape and sexually abuse boys and young men are women. One could also find professionals who treat and work with male victims who know about the actual effect it has on men and boys. The fact that one has not done this again suggests that one’s argument is purely personal and political in nature and is not based at all on legal standards.
Mike could have faught this woman off. He didn’t. He could have reported the incident. He didn’t.
Most women could fight off their rapists as well. Many women have fought off rapists and other would-be attackers, so it is not only possible but probable that women could defend themselves if they wanted to. Likewise, women could report their assaults. There is nothing actually stopping them from contacting the police and filing charges. So, following one’s logic, the fact that women do not fight off their rapists and do not report their rapes even though they could implies … what, exactly?
I could care less what the LEGAL definition of rape is in the United Kingdom. It is not my country and people like “Mike” and “James” are Americans, not Brits. So, what a British legal professional thinks about what happened to “Mike” is not my concern. Truly, it isn’t. I only care about something that is even beyond how the legal establishment deals (or fails to deal with)this problem: the erosion of moral sensibilities and the lack of caring about how we treat each other. That pregnant women used power and intimidation to take advantage of “Mike.” If the roles were reversed, it seems most people would not have a hard time understanding what transpired. Let’s pretend that the word “rape” is non-existent in our lexicon. Now, use your intelligence to come up with descriptive and defining phrases and words to cover what was done to “Mike.” How does this differ from how some boss would grope a female subordinate when everyone else has left the office and only those two are left behind?
And as a male, I can tell you that, along with other males, erections happen when we are asleep and no stimulation is the proximate cause of this condition.
“Rape” has “evolved,” in some jurisdictions, to have more of a political meaning as opposed to an ethical one. Among feminists, there is a clear political intent behind this, and by corrupting its meaning humanity is done a disservice.
After my experience today, the disbelieving comments are not so surprising. A Weblog posting that I made and considered rather innocuous received some venom — from men. It’s about the feminazi view that men are bad and women are good. I was surprised, frankly. Postings about religion, conspiracy theories, freedom for Tibet, even similar posts — none had the venom from men. If I’m out of line by posting the link here, I apologize in advance. Curious people can see it at http://stormbringer005.blogspot.com/2007/10/man-bad-woman-good.html.
Let’s pretend that the word “rape” is non-existent in our lexicon. Now, use your intelligence to come up with descriptive and defining phrases and words to cover what was done to “Mike.”
I don’t need to use my intelligent. A perfectly adequate phrase exists: sexual assault. This is how I’d describe what happened to Mike.
How does this differ from how some boss would grope a female subordinate when everyone else has left the office and only those two are left behind?
It doesn’t differ in that neither would be rape. A grope isn’t a rape, nor is a sexual assault.
I find it fascinating that so many commenters at PJM on my recent Mac Donald thread called the women lying sluts and disbelieved everything they said. These women, so it went, should not have got drunk etc.
Now they are saying that men should always be believed no matter what.
Common factor? Misogyny.
anonymous_libertarian:
ddc-
“#A woman straddling a man’s erect penis is not rape, drunk or not.#
Wrong. It’s just like when male rapists drug someone unconscious and rape them.”
Your lame comment basically states that you cannot differentiate between male and female gentitals.
You have got to be kidding me to say a woman straddling an erect penis (without the man throwing her off which being unrestrained he would have little problem doing – ESPECIALLY a Marine) is the same as the unwelcomed intrusion of an erest penis into any oriface of a woman.
I wonder, answer me this question. if you were going to be tortured in prison who would you rather “rape” you. A woman’s vagina straddling your penis or bubba’s erect penis intruding into your anus? Convince me you cannot see the difference.
Here’s a biology lesson: Based purely on genitals of the sexes. A female’s genitals are passive, therefore a vagina cannot rape. female genitals are “entered.” A male genital is “aggressive” and therefore does the “entering” and when unwanted, in a sexual situation, can cause a bit of damage. End of lesson.
The reason for the amount of women bashing by men might also be due to the sentiment by the men here that “we cannot help that our genitals become erect so don’t blame us, we are tired of being blamed for the rape.”
What this might suggest to me is that if the male cannot help being erect even while an unwanted female climbs onto of him, then how also can or must he be blamed for rape against a female. “we get erections all the time – throughout the night – our genitals can’t help it.” Well, maybe in a man’d mind, men really ought not be ever charged with rape at all?
Just a thought.
Mary Jackson, you do indeed have a political agenda. And you don’t like it when we criticize double standards. I’ve never called women those epithets and never, ever blamed the victim when it comes to the crime of imposing forced sex on women. Misogynist I am not. Please check my critical comments about Islamic culture, which is THE most misogynist on the planet. Those apes take it to another level entirely. And you’d better make sure the Islamic apes in your country do not break out of the pc, multi-culti protection racket Labour and socialism run over there. You will not like the jizya those 7th century savages require of you.
mary: “It doesn’t differ in that neither would be rape. A grope isn’t a rape, nor is a sexual assault.
I find it fascinating that so many commenters at PJM on my recent Mac Donald thread called the women lying sluts and disbelieved everything they said. These women, so it went, should not have got drunk etc.
Now they are saying that men should always be believed no matter what.
Common factor? Misogyny.”
I also find this rather interesting.
Common factor? Misogyny.
That is ridiculous. It is not misogyny to say that women can be capable of vicious and predatory behavior, just as men can be. I will grant you that male rape of females will always be much more common than the reverse because of the biological differences, but simply acknowledging that the reverse is possible is beyond you.
As an earlier poster pointed out, many of the women on this thread who have actually experienced rape have no difficulty sympathizing with and believing “Mike.” I suppose we’re all misogynists too?
This is about one person treating another person like dirt, like a thing. It’s not OK when men do it to women, it’s not OK when women do it to men, it’s not OK when adults do it to kids. And I don’t get why some people’s compassion dries up entirely when a victim falls outside their little magic circle of People We Should Have Compassion For. Women, check, kids, check. But feel sympathy, or empathy, for a man? And a Marine, at that? Oh, come now, that’s asking too much.
transcended,
That’s an easy one. The answer is ‘no’. Any other questions?
Jim = clearly afflicted by misogony.
Little boys get raped. The vast majority are raped by other men. For them I have sympathy. For James, zero. The good Dr. can bring that up as well. Saaaay, use her Doctor skills to rather than explain why poor James was so frightened by the pregnant girl, why men rape little boys.
Oh but wait…that’s blaming men again. Oh snap! I think in an effect to NOT blame men her articles become fantastical efforts to remove ALL blame of men and paint them in every one of her articles as poor pathetic sad sack picked-on victims.
Ask the average woman about what kind of men she works with at an office each day. It ain’t the timid sorry sad-sack man.
Jim = clearly afflicted by misogony.
Little boys get raped. The vast majority are raped by other men. For them I have sympathy. For James, zero. The good Dr. can bring that up as well. Saaaay, use her Doctor skills to rather than explain why poor James was so frightened by the pregnant girl, why men rape little boys.
Oh but wait…that’s blaming men again. Oh snap! I think in an effect to NOT blame men her articles become fantastical efforts to remove ALL blame of men and paint them in every one of her articles as poor pathetic sad sack picked-on victims.
Ask the average woman about what kind of men she works with at an office each day. It ain’t the timid sorry sad-sack man.
Lea wonders why there is so much anger at women under the surface in this thread. It is simple – the system so obviously priveleges women both as victims and perpetrators.
Thank you. I guess the anger is what keeps drawing me out. I find it worrisome.
I’m also a bit surprised to hear myself defined as ‘callous’. Mary and I do not share the same opinion. I clearly think a Rape occured to the gentlemen in question. And I really do feel sympathy for these men, but I also feel alarm, not at them, but at the way women like the one in the story seem to have turned some men against women. I remember listening to a conversation between two (male) co-workers around the time of the Kobe Bryant trial. It was pretty much assumed that she was crying rape, because apparently women lie about this stuff all the time. Now, maybe she did lie, I have no idea. But the fact is that Kobe got off. The Duke boys got off (thankfully, of course, since they were innocent). But there is so clearly a huge amount of fear in the male population of being falsely accused that I’m worried about the backlash and this board is a good example of that.
As I said earlier, rape is already hard to prove. Women (or as someone said earlier ‘all sane people’) are clearly reluctant to report it and so many people get off scott free. Apparently, men are afraid to report it as well, but we seem to be left thinking everybody who reports it is a liar. That is a concern. We should look at each case with new, just eyes.
Most women could fight off their rapists as well.
I wouldn’t go nearly so far as most. I have seen some literature that some date-rapes could be prevented by struggling more, because some attackers may just decide it’s not worth the trouble. (this actually happened to a friend of mine. She fought the guy off for 3 hours and he finally gave up). The thing is, even scrawny, scrawny men are awfully strong compared to most women. And when a woman decides to struggle, she has to make a decision as to whether this will make it better and get her away, or make it worse and anger the man. And this may be hard to tell. This is not really the situation most full grown men are in. It seems they are more likely to be incapacitated by alcohol or drugs.
Mary,
I am not sure what your reasoning for distinguishing “sexual assault” and “rape” is. Keep in mind that we are talking the United States, so its mores are operational. I can say that informally, it is called ‘rape’ over here whether there is penetration or not as well as whether there is opportunity to resist or not. At least, that is my impression from a number of sensitivity seminars as well as campus alerts when I was in college.
Let me be clear about what I believe:
Girl gets drunk and sober man has sex w/ her == rape
Man gets girl drunk to take advantage of her even if he drank == rape
Man and girl get drunk and get together != rape
The same goes for the opposite.
Now I would say that I could accept that any charges would be slightly less (not going for specifics, just not greatly less nor the same) for woman on man rape as there would be less physical damage. And, yes I think a pregnant woman bouncing on your groin area for who knows how long is going to leave a mark.
Minor point – I don’t see the second episode as being necessarily different as the act was already in comission when he woke up. The fact that blackmail was brought up at that point does not transmute the situation. If the situation was reversed and the man instead of blackmailing, stole a purse, that doesn’t make the situation one of theft, does it? Regardless, blackmail is a form of coersion and power does not necessarily have to come at the end of a fist.
Regardless, blackmail is a form of coersion and power does not necessarily have to come at the end of a fist.
See, I guess where I’m coming from is that for a while they started saying that even a guy talking a girl into sex, which she later regreted, was rape and I always thought that was wrong.
I agree with you that it was already in commission, so to a certain extent this is more of an intellectual argument then a real one about what happened after he was really awake and able to fight her off. If anything, the blackmail stuff speaks to her intent. If he had been unconscious and woke up to her on top of him we may not have known if it was a case of them both being drunk (except she was pregnant…which I guess doesn’t preclude her being drunk but if she wasn’t drunk, then never mind. Because if you start having sex with unconscious people that’s pretty damn wrong, no matter who’s doing it. But take away the pregnancy and put two drunk people in a room together and I think you would have a more ambiguous situation).
Some people here aren’t very bright at all.
Rape isn’t about sex so much as power, and the hussy in this tale had a bit of power, LIKED it and ABUSED it.
It doesn’t become rape if you add props like a gun or a knife or a sex toy-
it was already rape- non consensual, forced sex.
Christ Almighty, I can only hope that most of you live in other countries or do not vote.
(and WTF is misogony? Is that the misspelled buzzword of the day? Clever. The more moronic internet posts I read, the more I enjoy books.)
Thanks for sharing your story, Marine.
Mary Jackson:
I’m a bit puzzled. I went back and read your article on Heather MacDonald. Your main complaint was that MacDonald advocates one standard for men and another for women. Here you’ve come up with your own set of double standards. But yours are OK because they favor women, while MacDonald’s favors men.
I find it fascinating that so many commenters at PJM on my recent Mac Donald thread called the women lying sluts and disbelieved everything they said. These women, so it went, should not have got drunk etc.
Now they are saying that men should always be believed no matter what.
First of all, I just did a quick scroll through the MacDonald thread and this one, eyeballing the names very quickly. People can change Internet niks, of course, but the commenters appear to be mainly different people in both threads. So “they” are not saying one different thing on one spot on PJM and contradicting themselves elsewhere. That’s what you appear to be doing.
Secondly, show where “they” are saying “men should always be believed, no matter what.”
You’ve built a lovely strawman, Mary, is that a Brit thing?
BTW, the “anonymous” I was just responding to basically called me a liar. I reserve the right to take serious issue with such a charge.
Sorry, but I don’t believe a real Marine was “sore” and wouldn’t react physically to an unwanted threat. Nope, no way.
Either you didn’t get “raped” or you weren’t a Marine.
But if you were, sorry I just don’t buy that “I was sore afterwards” complaint. If you really were raped and in fear of this woman physically, why the heck did you stick around for the second go-around.
Just like we do with female victims, rightly so, we question whether their reported details add up. Sorry but yours don’t. I’m glad you’re getting some attention, some sympathy, and hopefully some serious psychological help (not sure all those who are out to convince you you’re a male victim in the typical female style are not banging away on agendas of their own.)
Because a fit Marine does not get “sore” by even an Amazon woman. Again, were your muscles hurt, or was your penis chafed? And if she was enjoying herself, wouldn’t she be naturally lubed? Or do you mean to tell us this pregnant lady was into really rough sex and was rubbing herself raw and you got “sore” from the friction…
Just as we should questions female rape victims when somethings aren’t adding up, you’re going to have to provide more details. No Marine would react without physical force to someone they didn’t want on them. I don’t buy the “but I was scared she would blackmail me” angle either. Act first, think later. It takes very little Marine training to instill that one as instinct, thankfully for survival reasons. They don’t grown victims in the Corps — maybe something was missing that you’re finding now in the dr. helen mens-victims crowd. Sure men can be raped. But your story here dismisses those men truly raped, 99% of the time by other men, and under true physcial force or violence.
Somehow it must be more palatable to sell it as “straight” rape though, nevermind the true male victims who have been violated. Talk about “sore” …
It is difficult to see how this Marine could have gotten away from this trouble once she had lowered the boom on him. If he did not cooperate, he would be accused of rape. A Marine, off-base, drunk, and in a hotel room with a woman he barely knew was in a no-win situation. There is NO WAY the police or his commanding officer are going to believe him and reject her story. The threat of jail, for the naive among some posters on this blog, is pretty terrifying to a 19-year old guy. This was a pretty well set up power play on that woman’s part. She knew what she was doing and executed her plan to perfection. He had no defense at all. None.
Yes, he was drunk. Yes, some would argue that he put himself in a position to be taken advantage of. Yet, who expects THIS to happen? Female rape of men is not exactly a common occurrence and can a 19 year old whelp REALLY expect to see this coming? And besides, the blame-the-victim mentality apparent in some posts is getting quite old. Maybe more experienced and wise older people are able to recognize some of the clues to evil that a sociopath/narcissist/personality disordered person can exhibit. Even so, you can’t see all of them coming. Some do hide it well.
In closing, to touch on one dimension to this I’ve beaten ad nauseam: I’m shocked by how little the moral dimension to this thing had been appreciated. The legal language/law aspect of it sure has been worked over, but I’m surprised by how few are the insights about the dimension of evil that permeates the crime. And I think we impoverished for it.
I guess I’m too old and old fashioned to thrive in this post-modernist culture.
anonymous,
I was thinking the same about the “sore” angle and his waiting around for a second go and this “fear” thing doesn’t add up. 17 years of mental anguish? if it were man on man rape yeah, i could easily and instantly be sympathetic. it wouldn’t be unheard of if a real victim were to substitute a man perpetrator for a woman due to the shame and mental anguish.
I’m getting sick of this thread and the boneheaded attitudes on display in it. I am posting one last time to apologize to Lea — I do see your point now, though I still think this case was a rape by any reasonable definition.
Folks, you are pretty much all operating on a double standard so deeply ingrained you probably don’t even realize it. I’m not promoting whiny victimhood for men here, just asking for a little logical consistency. If men and women have equal rights, as I believe they should, then equal responsibility comes with it. Nonconsensual sex isn’t transformed into a lucky night just by reversing the gender of the participants.
If you really were raped and in fear of this woman physically, why the heck did you stick around for the second go-around.
That has only been explained, oh, at least 20 or so times in this thread. Not to mention in the original account.
Sean Galt is right – the level of intelligence the scoffers display (not to mention the level of basic human decency) isn’t stellar.
FAKE FAKE FAKE
If you lameasses believe this story that’s so obviously made up, then I have a seat to sell you on the Obamanot spaceship.
The pre-takeoff excitement is really cool, man, but the ride sucks.
Stick your moderation – HERE – commies!
Dear Sioux Lady:
I will only refer you to the book I cited. I am not an expert (thank God!).
It boils down to this: Both male and female genitalia serve a purpose, exactly as does a heart, kidneys and a spleen. They function according to parameters. “Being terrorized” of course does not induce an erection. Say a man has not spent the entire evening with his lover (he is not sexually exhausted). He eats a healthy diet and stays in shape. He is abducted and held at point of a weapon. His genitals are stimulated. He is in a state of terror, and yet an erection WILL manifest. Continued stimulation results in ejaculation. Women who are raped are, of course, horrified at the experience, and yet their genitals will lubricate and orgasm is not unheard of.
It is an indelicate subject, and decent people are aghast at such information, but the human body is what it is.
Again, please read Peter Anderson’s book if you doubt it. Certainly, most people, like you and I, who are “brought up right” would have no such personal experience with these abominations of human depravity, but the truth is sometimes awkward.
Woman can, indeed, rape men. And if you think most women are reticent to report their rapes, consider how preposterously humiliated a man would be to walk into a police station and say he was raped by a woman.
I think it is very courageous of Dr. Helen to broach this topic, since Oprah and Dr. Phil haven’t the intestinal fortitude to do so.
Many rapes of women by men are not forced rape. It varies according to state law. In some states, if a woman says no, even up to changing her mind after penetration, it is rape.
This was rape since it was most certainly rape by most if not all state laws.
The fact that he was drunk and offered to share a room with her (separate beds as well), doesn’t remove the crime. Nor would it remove the crime in the case of a woman being raped by a man.
Its deplorable in both cases, and I feel sympathy for the man. His story is very likely true, and the reactions here are one reason men do not report it or talk about it, instead they are left to deal with it on thier own, or not.
Seventeen years to deal with a rape that you have not sought help for dealing with is not a long time at all. That is why women need help when they are getting past it.
“No Marine would react without physical force to someone they didn’t want on them. I don’t buy the “but I was scared she would blackmail me” angle either. Act first, think later.”
Sorry, but if a man, Marine or not, reacts in a “act now, think later” way with civilians, he WILL be accused of assault, and usually aggravated by the fact that he has had military training.
Also, it’s not a micro-chip they add to your brain that somehow, you react in X way 100% of the time with 100% of people, personality be damned. Sure the army wishes to uniformize things, but they can only succeed so well, and at 19 years old, you’re no veteran hardened in the way of military who wakes up at 4 am every day because of force of habit.
I didn’t expect much more positive comments towards male victims personally. I’ve been prepared for the horribleness by the media and by reactions to other cases of harm coming to men. It’s always disbelieved or blamed on the victim, or the perpetrator (if female) is excused on other grounds (that are generally not self-defense, but things such as mentall illness, stress etc – things that never excuse a male perpetrator’s actions).
I’m glad for the few who supported James’s account and coming forward. I also do support it.
To those who say men ought not to be victims, or to speak of feelings, or even to ‘steal’ that victimhood from the ‘real’ victims, I wonder what you’d do were it to happen to you?
I personally have not had it happen to me, but I know what having problems from society means and what empathy means. I also know what it is to have your problems trivilalized, minimized or ignored.
“Sure men can be raped. But your story here dismisses those men truly raped, 99% of the time by other men, and under true physcial force or violence.”
Totally false for your 99% statistic. Even rape shelters don’t go as far as 99%, and they’re still underestimating the issue. The statistical probability of a rape with a male victim is lower than for male on female rape, yes. That’s I’ll happily concede to be true. But it’s not infinitesimally insignificant, it’s about 1/2 to 2/3 the rate of women’s as victims (I’m speaking only of female on male here – not male on male). Male on male occurs in some proportions too, and female on female also does occurs in some proportions, which are not insignificant.
Saying that one group deserves their compassion as victims, and another is undeserving because of being male, black, short, old, fat, wiccan, jew, bald, long-haired, unshaved, Iranian, Japanese, Chinese, etc – is totally stupid and makes no sense. Anyone can be a victim regardless of any characteristic, and they are just as worthy a victim as the next person.
Having any privilege or advantage of any kind (sex, size, height, economic class, fame, etc) can make it happen less often, but it doesn’t make it any less awful for the victim when it does, or any more acceptable to mock, berate, ignore or laugh at him or her.
Even if the male victims represented only 5% of men, versus statistics saying women represent 25% of women – you know, men have 0% of shelters, 0% of compassion towards them, and are the least believed of all – because of sentiments such as expressed in this thread, calling them metrosexual or other terms that are aimed to insult and minimize their harm, while preventing or repairing none of it.
“Sorry, but I don’t believe a real Marine was “sore” and wouldn’t react physically to an unwanted threat.”
Because a “real marine” would beat up a pregnant woman?
anonymous said…
Helen, the way to help the guys win is not to adopt the sorry tactics the left has used supposedly on behalf of women for years. You have to take on that stuff, not weaken men by pretending they are “victims”; hell, everyone’s a victim.
This has nothing to do with the gender war or politics. It’s not about helping anybody “win”. There are NO winners where sexual abuse is concerned. There are many losers however.
I will say this about feminism…
I was a teenager in the seventies. There were marches I participated in that were, to me, an natural offshoot of the civil rights movement that so influenced my earlier political awakenings. Among those crowds were two of three sisters. The third sister was absent. She was also the one who had taken some liberties with myself some years earlier. As we marched we chanted “Equality, equality, …”. I miss those feminists. Maybe it’s a good thing they used a different label.
Lea said…
But it’s not unreasonable to draw a line and call blackmail blackmail and not rape. You could physically remove yourself at this point, an option most women don’t have when faced with a similar situation. I personally would draw the rape line at the point when you are either physically incapable of getting away or you are reasonably threatened with violence if you try to get away. You were in a different situation (at this point, not before) and I don’t think you should take people’s disagreement with you about this part personally, because it’s really more about where the line is. Nobody is saying that the women should have done that, it’s pretty terrible and as a woman, it pisses me off, because then whenever a woman says someone raped her, men think of these crazy women and dismiss it. It hurts all of us!
Lea, why is it that we are constantly exhorted to not draw attention to a womans attire if she is raped? I’ll come back to that.
James was a marine at the time of his experience. Six years prior to my own experience in the eighties I represented my country as a javelin thrower. I can’t speak for James but I was stronger and faster than most of the planet’s population at the time. How the hell could any woman, or even most men for that matter, rape me?
Yes, Lea, I could easily have physically removed her. Do you think I haven’t asked myself about this a million times? Why doesn’t a woman fight off her rapist? You don’t ask her this. You simply make assumptions. Besides, that’s too much like “blaming the victim”. Simple truth Lea, I froze. Apart from saying no in several different ways I was a passive agent through the entire thing. The potential consequences of my physically removing her were far worse than my allowing her to get it over and done with as quickly as possible. Consider where you might have heard something like that before.
So why shouldn’t we draw attention to the miniskirt (a sentiment I have always agreed with by the way)? Significant problems for rape victims are sourced from guilt, shame, self recrimination. Blaming the victim for their circumstances magnifies these issues for the victim. Do you actually believe that men don’t also experience guilt, shame or self recrimination and for the same reasons? What makes you think that a male won’t have exactly the same issues? I never defined my mid twenties experience as a rape. That was done by others. I still have difficulty addressing it in those terms. The fact is, though, that the outcomes for me were little different to those experienced by any number of female victims. I didn’t seek help for years and then only because I was ordered to by my doctor. I’d had no way of linking my health concerns with an event I couldn’t view as rape, or even sexual abuse, because nothing in the culture enabled me to make those connections.
Lea, if I’d had you as a guide, rather than my doctor, eight years ago I’d probably be dead. Thanks Lea.
By the way a physically violent rape is TWO crimes. It is both a rape and a physical assault. A rape coerced through blackmail is likewise two crimes. Arguably both are worse than rapes which devolve only to issues of consent.
Mary Jackson said…
My disagreement is with the view that it is rape. This is not a disagreement of principle, but one of law, which defines rape narrowly as penetration by a penis. As such it can only be perpetrated by a man. Sexual assault, which may be more serious in some cases, may be perpetrated by both sexes.
Australia has defined rape in such a way that it doesn’t matter who is doing the penetrating. Laws were amended in the late nineties when it was found that women couldn’t be charged at all let alone convicted. The couple of women who sexually abused me twenty years apart did so legally!
You seem to have your own definition. Mine requires coercion of some form. There are many forms of coercion other than the physical.
ddc said…
Tell us, or explain to us WHY such things happen to women, to little girls and to little boys, mostly at the hands of men.
The majority of child abuse is committed by women even when sexual abuse is included. Female perpetrators account for a quarter of child sexual abuse and constitute significantly more than a quarter of individual abusers. Look up “The Invisible Boy”.
Toy Soldier:
Brian, that is a truly disgusting, sexist and utterly moronic comment, so much so that you have lost any remote credibility, making it highly doubtful to believe that you would sympathize with any man, woman or child who was victimized. It is quite literally that kind of inane thinking that leads to men and boys remaining silent, and to be honest, the kind of sentiment that leads to further abuse and rape. At least the other dissenters had the general decency to imply that they thought this without directly saying it.
Between two thirds and three quarters of the men guilty of seriously physically abusive rapes were sexually abused by a woman during their childhood. Treating the victimisation of boys with the same gravity applied when the genders are reversed may make a big dent in the number of violent rapes experienced by women and girls.
ddc said…
Little boys get raped. The vast majority are raped by other men. For them I have sympathy. For James, zero. The good Dr. can bring that up as well. Saaaay, use her Doctor skills to rather than explain why poor James was so frightened by the pregnant girl, why men rape little boys.
Incorrect. Boys are approximately half the victims of child sexual abuse and are abused EQUALLY by either gender.
@Toy Soldier…
Thankyou for those links. There’s research referenced there that I’ve not seen.
Kali Munro’s closing thoughts should be heeded…
Men who were sexually abused by women rarely see their reality reflected in articles, books, services, and web sites that are created for sexual abuse survivors. The fact that it is not widely acknowledged or accepted that boys as well as girls are sexually abused, and women as well as men sexually abuse children is damaging to men who were abused by women.
Many male survivors live in isolation, fear, shame, anger, and silence precisely because they know the taboos in our culture about talking about this form of abuse. It needn’t be this way. We can acknowledge that boys are abused and women abuse children without diminishing the reality of male perpetrated violence and female victimization. Understanding this form of abuse contributes to our knowledge about abuse in all its forms – something that we will all benefit from.
gwallan: Lea, if I’d had you as a guide, rather than my doctor, eight years ago I’d probably be dead. Thanks Lea.
I this completely unfair. I was talking about the main person at the top of the page, not your story, which I had to go back and refresh my memory on. You were 8, correct? Not the same thing at all. Children are completely different from adults in this matter. Believe me, my mother was sexually abused as a child and I do not take child abuse lightly at all.
As for your other experience, you were vague and I’m not talking about it because I don’t know the details. This has not a damn thing to do with miniskirts and people asking for it and it’s ludicrous for you to bring those things up!
From the different stories I’ve heard, it seems that most of them involve alcohol or drugs, which if you did freeze, might explain that? As I said, I’m not talking about your story at all because I don’t know it.
I did not take the original story lightly, I just have questions about where to draw the lines. And it appears that the law differs from state to state so I am not the only one. But apparently I would have caused your death by having these questions and am obviously a cold, callous shell of a person who has no business responsing to stuff people put on an open board. Whatever. I”m done.
Hey morons! Still arguing about absolutely nothing?
Have a happy July fourth!
http://www.jameslandrith.com
Lea,
I think we agree in your last points to me. I did try, if imperfectly, to say basically the same thing. I did make that assumption based on the fact that it was not said she had been drinking and that it is a very bad idea for a pregnant woman to be drinking. If the situation was not as I had assumed, then yes it may have been different. Though also as I suggested, if it were premeditated predator behavior, then it doesn’t change it. But that would be difficult to prove.
Overall, I don’t think we are talking about legal remedies, just what constitutes ‘rape’.
The thing is, even scrawny, scrawny men are awfully strong compared to most women.
If size in and of itself were a determining factor in whether a person were capable of committing a violent act, then technically no child would be capable of assaulting, raping or murdering an adult (male or female). However, we this is not true, so it is not a stretch to imagine that an adult woman would could engage in the same actions and behavior.
And when a woman decides to struggle, she has to make a decision as to whether this will make it better and get her away, or make it worse and anger the man. And this may be hard to tell. This is not really the situation most full grown men are in.
How would you know what situation most adult men are in if adult men rarely even mention being raped, let alone raped by women? How would you know what decisions they have to make or what the risks are?
I this completely unfair. I was talking about the main person at the top of the page, not your story, which I had to go back and refresh my memory on. You were 8, correct? Not the same thing at all.
Actually, it is not. Speaking as someone who advocates for male victims I can attest that the exact same arguments many have made about why men can fight off women and therefore cannot be raped are said to boys all the time and regardless of the gender of the rapist. Boys are routinely told that if they did not want it they could (and should) have fought back. Given that no one has made any distinction as to when a male is fully capable of fending for himself, it is not unreasonable to assume that people like you and Mary Jackson would apply the “bigger, stronger = incapable of being raped” logic to boys.
But apparently I would have caused your death by having these questions and am obviously a cold, callous shell of a person who has no business responsing to stuff people put on an open board.
The legal definition is a separate issue. In certain states no one can legally be “raped” because the statutes only acknowledge “sexual assault” regardless of the victim’s gender, but it is unlikely that you would consider a forcible sexual act on a woman not rape just because of a legal technicality.
Putting that aside, gwallan’s point is that the attitude you demonstrate would have caused him enough damage that he might have fallen more into depression and may have intentionally taken his life. Anyone who works with victims of rape and sexual abuse of either gender can attest that not being believed and having one’s experienced ridiculed greatly increases victims’ unwillingness to come forward and also victims’ willingness to turn to self-harm and even suicide.
I woke up from my deep sleep to find my wife straddling me, I was being awakened by her activities.
And if the reverse was true, your wife would probably feel violated and possibly accuse you of marital rape.
“Well, Heather, if it’s so clear cut that this was rape, why didn’t “Mike” press charges?”
Even a Brit cannot be this clueless. Tell me, Mary, during Jim Crow why didn’t blacks report the lynchings and other murders and rapes committed by whites? Can you really have such a Penny Lane view of life that you think all a person has to do is file a report with the police and the matter will be prosecuted and resolved, and that all a jury has to do to convict is hear the evidence?
“Jim = clearly afflicted by misogony.”
The standard Daddy’s Little Girl whine in these debates. Can you get anymore patriarchal, Daddy’s Little Girl? Grow up and learn how to argue like an adult.
MOre misandry from you:
“Here’s a biology lesson: Based purely on genitals of the sexes. A female’s genitals are passive, therefore a vagina cannot rape. female genitals are “entered.” A male genital is “aggressive” and therefore does the “entering” and when unwanted, in a sexual situation, can cause a bit of damage. End of lesson.”
Lesson? Where did you learn your “biology” – in a women’s studies class somewhere? Genitals cannot be either passive or aggressive, that is a property of individuals. It has to do with their intent, their minds, not their bodies. Simple and obvious distinction, lost on you obviously.
But your misandry is on display when you call male gentials “aggressive” = aways in the wrong if something violent occurs – typical sexist bigotry. Very telling. Very standard. And you have the nerve to accuse people of misogyny. Moral idiot.
“…during Jim Crow why didn’t blacks report the lynchings and other murders and rapes committed by whites?”
holy. sh*t.
you actually consider that an appropriate analogy?
holy. sh*t.
The most amazing thing is the attacks against the victim people are making here are the exact same ones that excused rape against women for thousands of years. I though we were over that. Do these women posting here really want to go backwards in time to when we told victims they were “asking for it” by drinking? or merely by being in a room with someone (remember Tailhook)? Or by not using enough violence to defend themselves? Or by having their body react to being stimulated even if they don’t want it?
All of those arguments have been used against women for so long, I can’t believe I see women actually taking those positions.
Well, I know I was de facto raped by my wife. She was prone to imbibe excessively and then become violent verbally and sometimes physically. Nothing could dissuade her during these very prolonged onslaughts.
Finally, on the night in question, I tried locking myself in a small appendage house with a bedroom, which attached to our house, simply to escape one of her outbursts. She then found me after a few minutes and actually surprised me by threatening to break down the door or window if I ~ “didn’t come out and do my husbandly duties”, which hadn’t even been a part of the whole scenario until then, and never had been before.
There was a 6 lb. splitting maul handy, which she and I both often used.
I reasoned that if I didn’t comply, I’d soon be face to face with her anyway, but with some damage to the little house to boot. So I complied, but only after also going through the following considerations in my mind.
If I had instead managed to escape, one very real question was how much damage I might have had to do to her in order to escape – she was very strong, and so am I, but who knows what would have actually happened? I think I would have had to literally knock her out, before she got to me possibly with a weapon of some kind – such as that maul or something else in the kichen – at least if I tried to go for the car keys.
I probably could have outrun her into the night, but other things I considered were: 1] how much damage might she do in my absence, and, 2] if I went to the Police, what would she then claim happened – especially given that she was juiced out of her mind and might not be able to remember anything correctly to begin with; and so, 3] what damage would the “Authorities” then do to either me or her, given the “must arrest”, etc., provisions of domestic violence procedures.
So, as I said, I complied. The alternatives seemed worse.
I don’t care if anyone else thinks it was “rape” or not. And I am not at all bothered by my decision. I was not even “humiliated” by this incident, especially in comparison to the chronic situation which obviously obtained.
We’re divorced. Move on! I will only add that sexism directed against men is no better than sexism directed against women. Hoping the Messiah will cure you of it, and of all other bigotries [and personal problems with life], is not a plan. Get over it yourself!
Mary Jackson,
Again, let’s compare what you’re purporting to be required for a rape to occur, and the female-male equivalent. You said that if this was rape, “Mike” would have pressed charges. If a female was raped, and she didn’t press charges, does that mean that she wasn’t raped?
I doubt you would agree with the latter, so why would you suggest the former?
To address your last statement, that if “Mike” had been penetrated by a man, it would have been rape; Nowhere in legal or psychological texts is it specified that penetration of the victim must occur in order for the act to constitute rape.
Now, you may have invented your own definition for the word, with its own requirements and technicalities,but thankfully, rape is not defined by any individual’s conceptualization of it, to include yours.
In a later comment, you wrote that where women have been taken advantage of, men have called them sluts, and attempted to profess that it was their own fault. I would have to agree that this, as you so pointedly stated, is absolutely rooted in mysogyny, and further, is absolutely horrific. However, it does not deny the significance of the fact that a man can be raped, should the roles be reversed, and that what happened to “Mike” constitutes rape. It would be a tragedy for anyone to fail to see what has actually occurred, simply because their sight has been tinted by lesser members of our society.
Finally, to all of those commentators claiming that failure to accept men as victims is rooted in the so-called “feminazi” movement, I would like to call to their attention that it is not just women who are objecting to the idea of a man being raped by a woman – it’s men, too. And by deciding to aim your anger at one group, and further, to insult them along the way, you’re simply promoting a different type of ignorance; and isn’t ignorance what you’re attempting to fight?
plutosdad,
My exact same observations about some of the responses on this thread. I think the most important thing about a thread like this is what it has exposed rather than what it has resolved.
“Finally, to all of those commentators claiming that failure to accept men as victims is rooted in the so-called “feminazi” movement, I would like to call to their attention that it is not just women who are objecting to the idea of a man being raped by a woman – it’s men, too. And by deciding to aim your anger at one group, and further, to insult them along the way, you’re simply promoting a different type of ignorance; and isn’t ignorance what you’re attempting to fight?”
Actually it’s *more* men than women, but it’s a society-wide attitude that produces this. Feminism didn’t address it though, maybe it was convenient, or not on the radar. Some feminists might address it, but few do. The only feminists I’d actually see side on the willfull ignorance and demonization are some radical feminists – who see men as inherently evil.
Many others can possibly see the harm, mob mentality and dogma can often prevent it though. (It’s considered anti-feminist to consider men as victims for examples).
Schala,
I do not agree that it is considered anti-feminist to see men as victims. The point of the feminist movement, in general, was to bring women on to the same playing field as men, not a higher one. Wouldn’t part of that playing field, albeit a negative part, be victimization?
I appreciate your comment that it is mainly men who choose to promote the idea that men can not be raped, however.
Regardless, just because a specific movement fails to address a specific issue does not mean that they are to blame, as others choose to believe. There has been numerous other movements that also have not addressed this issue – and noone chooses to blame them.
I’m not blaming feminism, I’m blaming the Victorian attitude that men ought to be tough and not display any sign of weakness, etc.
Funny enough that Victorian era also produced the petticoating of aristocrats to make them more gentlemanly (usually by force, if not brute, direct force). Petticoating in theory is supposed to make boys act more like girls to not appear too much out of place and reveal they are really boys, so they act shyly, demurely, and humbly. Of course some carried it too far and decided to break them.
About feminism though, it cannot claim to be for gender equality if it only addresses women’s issues. It is pro-woman, but not gender equal.
Little boys get raped. The vast majority are raped by other men. For them I have sympathy. For James, zero. The good Dr. can bring that up as well. Saaaay, use her Doctor skills to rather than explain why poor James was so frightened by the pregnant girl, why men rape little boys.
Gwallan: “Incorrect. Boys are approximately half the victims of child sexual abuse and are abused EQUALLY by either gender.”
Oh right that would explain NAMBLA’s membership well into the six figures and the sex tourism resorts set up all over the world to provide little boys for sex to cater to these men from all over the world. Where have YOU been hiding?
Jim,
Hurts doesn’t it? When you reduce yourself to sexist name-calling clearly with irrational hostility towards women I’d say that clearly the misogonist shoe fits. Sorry but you haven’t been successful in trying to hide your hatred of females.
keep up the good work. I bet your a real hit with the ladies.
“you actually consider that an appropriate analogy?”
You actually consider that an appropriate comment? Holy sh*t.
“Finally, to all of those commentators claiming that failure to accept men as victims is rooted in the so-called “feminazi” movement,…….”
Amen. It is a form of chivalry. The slam on feminism is that many feminsts have adopted chivlary as a form of feminism. Some of them are spraying that fertilizer around here.
“you actually consider that an appropriate analogy?”
You actually consider that an appropriate comment? The woman threatened hiim with a false rape accusation. why is it an injustice when a black am gets legally lynched over a false rape accusation, but it’s not an injustice when the same thing happens to a white man?
“She had apparently brought me to erection — not hard…”
This guy can’t keep his story straight.
Sorry, but if a man, Marine or not, reacts in a “act now, think later” way with civilians, he WILL be accused of assault, and usually aggravated by the fact that he has had military training.
Point is, he’d be an alive Marine. That’s why they teach them, if it’s not already inherent in that breed, not to take ANY physical crap.
A Marine in reacting would have immediately pushed this woman off him. If he’s disguising the facts and it was actually another man that raped him and left him sore, and traumatized for 17 years, that I can believe.
This little tale as concocted, sorry nope. The “he was a Marine too” complaining of “soreness” detail was just a little over the top.
Because a “real marine” would beat up a pregnant woman?
Why the heck would he have to beat her up?
He merely wants to physically remove the woman, and then physically remove himself from the situation.
Paralyzed by fear of blackmail into submission? Do any of you know any real Marines? Trust me, they wouldn’t just lay there thinking of England. Even, especially, a 19 year old Marine.
I’m starting to think this guy WAS raped … by another dude.
Only force makes rape?
Oh well, I guess people need to stop calling roofies a “rape drug”. Oh, and when slavers told women “submit or I’ll sell you kids down the river,” that wasnt rape either.
Oh are you forgetting she was pregnant? Any force against her hurts her baby, threfore she was threatening a third party with physical violence if he didnt comply.
It’s simple here, he said no, she threatened him into complying. It is rape.
Mary Jackson: “Rape must surely include physical force or threat of physical force.”
No…if a sober man takes advantage of a woman who is passed out or stone drunk, he’s guilty of rape. This is no different.
360 Annie: “Men ARE supposed to be different than women. I don’t want to see men crying and sharing their feelings….I hate the whole metrosexual thing, it’s part of what is wrong with the whole landscape…we need men to be men…”
Annie, please go screw yourself. Whether you like it or not, men are real human beings, and human beings have emotions, and sometimes cry or talk about them. No man will want to be with you if you treat him like a robot.
nynick: “Men can’t perform without some interest in performing.”
A man doesn’t need to be aroused in order to have an erection. He doesn’t even need to be awake. Those who think that a man can’t be raped because of the whole erection thing obviously know nothing about the human body.
SarahW.: “Let me be more blunt. You’ve fallen for a fantasy or confabulation created with the specific intention of having others be subjected to a prurient exagerration of his capacities and vulnerabilities.
His ‘harpy’ rape is a masturbatory fantasy and the literary equvalent of flashing.”
Sarah, I sincerely hope that if you’re ever attacked, yourself, you receive as much sympathy as you’re displaying to this man.
Snoop: “He chose to get drunk.
He chose to not plan a way home.
He chose to get a room with a complete stranger.”
Just as women often do. Do you accuse them of “choosing” to be raped, as you’re doing for this guy?
James, there are, as you can see, plenty of D-bags living in the Stone Age, who can’t conceive of what you’ve gone through because they take their outlook on life from MARRIED WITH CHILDREN. But there are also plenty of people who support you, as well.
Paralyzed by fear of blackmail into submission?
Uh, fear of a jail sentence and a ruined life and reputation would certainly do it for me.
The “he was a Marine too” complaining of “soreness” detail was just a little over the top.
OK, I’m a woman, but I don’t get why the soreness detail is so incredibly unbelievable. People – even young people in good shape – have been known to get sore even when both partners are consenting.
Do they issue new stainless steel penises to recruits at Parris Island along with the service rifles?
ddc: “A female’s genitals are passive, therefore a vagina cannot rape.”
I’m sure, ddc, that you’re a mere misandrist tool, but I’ll try with this, anyway:
A body part cannot rape all by itself. The human being to which that part belongs is the one who commits rape.
This woman forced him to have sex. That is rape. If he had hit her, he would have risked hurting or killing her unborn baby, and evidently he wasn’t willing to take that risk, which demonstrates what kind of guy he is. Sexual assault is traumatic, no matter how old you are when it happens, no matter your gender or the gender of the perp.
Rape is violence committed sexually, not sex committed violently.
Quite of few of the men in my immediate and extended family served in the Army or USMC. And I dated a couple of men who had been in the Marines, although they were not in active service when I met them.
So although I’m a civilian myself, I have to wonder about a few of the commentators who seem to think that being a Marine means you can just toss people around. I’ve run into this strange idea before, and it usually is held by civilian men who have never set foot on a military base in their lives. They have a notion that leathernecks and GIs on leave go around beating the hell out of everyone who gives them a funny look.
A Marine or soldier who runs around assaulting civilians gets into big trouble quickly. And a Marine accused of assaulting or raping a pregnant civilian? Do you think the armed forces want that sort of publicity? He’s going to get the book thrown at him.
I wonder if some of the harsher male responses aren’t due to the fact that they really hate the thought of a male victim and really, really hate the thought of a Marine being a victim. “Hey, I’ve seen “Full Metal Jacket” 15 times now! I know what the military is! Aren’t these guys supposed to be killing machines? Don’t give me this rape crap!”
That’s a very powerful closing sentence, Janet.
It is pointless to say he should have beat her up because he didn’t HAVE to “beat her up.” What exactly stopped him from sliding out from under her, getting out of bed, sitting in a chair and telling this chick to chill out for a few minutes? Did she have a gun? Is someone trying to suggest this guy was that desirable that she HAD to have him or else she would go apesh!t? A woman’s sexuality does not work that way, unless she was jacked on E or whatever. It is still the guy who has to get the erection since a flacid penis will not easily get into or stay in a vagina. and he has to keep the erection for as long as she’s on him.
“She apparently brought me to an erection.” Well apparently he liked it. it just seems less than believable. As to the fear part if he DIDN’T have intercourse with her that she would yell rape? Rape cannot be proven with evidence of forcefull entry OR without evidence of DNA. DNA. Hers and his.
He could have done any number of things besides “just going along with it.” Either way it simply does not sound like forced rape.
James Landrith: Thank you, sir, for the confirmation.
“’She apparently brought me to an erection.’ Well apparently he liked it.”
Riiiiiight, ddc. Just like if a woman’s nipples become hard (or she “becomes wet”) while she’s being raped, then it’s “not really rape,” right?
That was a devil’s advocate argument, not a serious question, by the way, ddc. Not that I expect you to grasp the difference.
“It is pointless to say he should have beat her up because he didn’t HAVE to “beat her up.” What exactly stopped him from sliding out from under her, getting out of bed, sitting in a chair and telling this chick to chill out for a few minutes? Did she have a gun?”
He was knocked out and heavily under the influence of alcohol, you tell me how your capacities are when you think you can’t drive because you’ll have an accident and that it’s worth spending money to pass the night away from home – perhaps he was drunk enough, don’t you think? My capacities when drunk are diminished very very low compared to normal, if you take into account that your coordination went out the window with your sense of balance.
“Is someone trying to suggest this guy was that desirable that she HAD to have him or else she would go apesh!t? A woman’s sexuality does not work that way, unless she was jacked on E or whatever.”
How would YOU know that. Are you a woman, do you know all women. Are you an authority on women’s sexuality? Women can be just as pervy as men, and just as interested in sex as men. That you’ve not met one, or asked them about it (or they didn’t feel like telling you if it was the case – which is more likely considering your attitude) doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
I’ve not met any people affected of dwarfism, but they exist, I’ve seen pictures, I’ve seen them on TV, I read about them. I don’t say ‘they don’t exist’ because I haven’t met one personally. And there’s plenty of mediatic evidence, if you know where to look, that women can like sex as much as men.
Plus as an aside, rape is about power, not about sex. It’s violence committed against another party who has not consented or is unable to consent for a reason or another. Not about desiring your victim. You can find your victim super ugly and rape her anyways, maybe even because of it.
““She apparently brought me to an erection.” Well apparently he liked it. it just seems less than believable.”
Read what dozens of people have said here: erections are not voluntary or signifying arousal necessarily. They can happen in your sleep while you dream about your dead grandma, or how you almost drowned in your childhood.
“As to the fear part if he DIDN’T have intercourse with her that she would yell rape? Rape cannot be proven with evidence of forcefull entry OR without evidence of DNA. DNA. Hers and his.”
It’s easy to prove her case if he ever comes, or had comed. Wether he liked it or not, he’ll be presumed guilty. How would he know if he ejaculated during his sleep when she first mounted him?
“He could have done any number of things besides “just going along with it.” Either way it simply does not sound like forced rape.”
Rape was forced in this case imo. But rape in itself does not need to be ‘forced physically’ to become valid. It’s an unconsenting act, it’s rape, period.
@Lea…
I was eight and twenty six. I’ve been “treated” for both but went to the counselling over the childhood experience originally. The later event was treated as more serious after they managed to drag it out of me. That I advocate more in the area of child sexual abuse now stems from an already existing belief on my part that we treat boys abysmally and that the numbers are greater. The fact that it’s safer helps a bit too.
This is not a exaggeration Lea. It is not an attack on you specifically but a statement of truth regarding the attitudes prevailing in our culture. As I have already stated male victims don’t emerge until their health issues make it imperative. Even then most don’t. I was one of the lucky ones in that my doctor twigged to a possible causality. Most of them continue deteriorating never having any idea why. He was giving me three or four years.
If we don’t speak to them they can’t answer.
When you make demands, as you have, that the male must be able to physically stop the abuse you make it their fault. “You should have done this”. “You shouldn’t have done that”. You don’t need to blame the victim. Nobody does. They do that on their own. This assertion on your part puts the responsibility on the victim. You might as well tell me my skirt was too short. It’s heard the same way. It’s my fault.
What is it that makes you believe there are no women aggressive enough to rape? How many women have you engaged with sexually that you can form a basis for this belief? That you wouldn’t do it, or even conceive of it, doesn’t mean there are no women who will.
And, no, I won’t give you a blow by blow description of events. Why should I? Given what I’ve seen here my expectation is that the more you know the more you will use it to marginalise me.
I have the same outcomes, the same ongoing problems as any number of female victims. That doesn’t make me a pseudo “woman” as some here are trying to suggest. It just makes me human.
As for your other experience, you were vague and I’m not talking about it because I don’t know the details. This has not a damn thing to do with miniskirts and people asking for it and it’s ludicrous for you to bring those things up!
It has everything to do with blaming the victim and it’s heard in exactly the same way. I must have wanted it.
From the different stories I’ve heard, it seems that most of them involve alcohol or drugs, which if you did freeze, might explain that? As I said, I’m not talking about your story at all because I don’t know it.
I was stone cold sober. She was very drunk and very troubled. I did what women are often advised to do actually. I remained passive. I let her do it not out of concern for what she may have done to me but for what she may have done to herself. I mentioned being involved in rape activism in an earlier post. Late seventies and early eighties I was a radical and active feminist. I knew much about rape even before this experience. What I didn’t know was that men can be raped and have the same impact as a woman. I wasn’t prepared for it or it’s consequences.
ddc said…
Oh right that would explain NAMBLA’s membership well into the six figures and the sex tourism resorts set up all over the world to provide little boys for sex to cater to these men from all over the world. Where have YOU been hiding?
Where have I been hiding? I’ve been doing something you clearly haven’t been doing. Reading and learning – for years.
Look up “The Invisible Boy” or read some of the material Toy Soldier linked to.
Then come back and lecture me about numbers.
this is pathetic
“If he had hit her, he would have risked hurting or killing her unborn baby, and evidently he wasn’t willing to take that risk, which demonstrates what kind of guy he is.”
Give me a break, Janet. That didn’t demonstrate anything about “what kind of guy he is”. By his own admission he was completely inebriated.
This is a text-book example of whiney, liberal mentality: I want to do anything I want, anytime and anywhere I want, but there can’t be any consequences whatsoever for those choices.
Sexual assault IS traumatic. So what? So are car accidents and hurricanes. This may meet the legal standard for rape, but he gave her the power to do so.
Paralyzed by fear of blackmail into submission?
Uh, fear of a jail sentence and a ruined life and reputation would certainly do it for me.
You’re a Marine now too, Donna? Lol.
The “he was a Marine too” complaining of “soreness” detail was just a little over the top.
OK, I’m a woman, but I don’t get why the soreness detail is so incredibly unbelievable. People – even young people in good shape – have been known to get sore even when both partners are consenting.
Talk to a guy about what the penis can take without getting “sore”.
I think a lot of the scoffing is just whistling past the graveyard. Saying “That could NEVER happen!” is really just a way of saying “That could happen to ME and there’s nothing I can do about it!”
“Saying “That could NEVER happen!” is really just a way of saying “That could happen to ME and there’s nothing I can do about it!””
Not saying it could never happen. It just that this kind of scenario is so easily preventable.
When I get in a car I fasten my set belt.
When there’s a tornado watch I seek shelter.
When I leave my house I lock the door.
And when I need a hotel room, I never share one with a COMPLETE STRANGER.
You’re a Marine now too, Donna? Lol.
No, did I claim to be?
So, Marines don’t have to worry about jail and loss of reputation? Lol.
The only lesson I can see in that story is that bad things happen to stupid people. Sharing a motel room with a complete stranger, and a pregnant one at that, is stupid. A pregnant woman hanging out at a bar all night is stupid. A young Marine being fearful of a pregnant woman and her threats is stupid.
The hapless Marine preemptively decided that local police would not believe him over the bar-hopping pregnant lady so he didn’t defend himself. That doesn’t sound like much of a Marine, or much of a man to me.
Schala,
“About feminism though, it cannot claim to be for gender equality if it only addresses women’s issues. It is pro-woman, but not gender equal.”
Have you considered that where the status quo must be changed, you have to travel from one extreme to the other, in order to find the balance?
Further, everyone discussing the legitimacy of “Mike”‘s story is sorely missing a large point, here: This is not a discussion about “Mike”, this is a discussion about the subject as a whole. You can choose not to believe “Mike”‘s story, but he’s not the first man to claim this, nor will he be the last.
Whether he was a Marine, whether he should have been drunk, whether his story makes sense, or is even consistent none of these are key issues – why waste your time debating them? There are other testimonials, and other victims – just because you don’t believe “Mike”‘s story doesn’t mean that a man being raped by a woman is not possible.
“This is not a discussion about “Mike”, this is a discussion about the subject as a whole.”
Ok, then find a better example. Dr. Helen is trying to prop up this allegation with a very shoddy story.
It’s like the Columbia professor who hung a noose on her own office door so she could wave her “indignant flag” and rant about how racist everyone is. Racism, too, is very real, so there shouldn’t be a need to fabricate evidence.
What so many people fail to realize is, it isn’t up to society, witnesses or offenders to determine whether an encounter was consensual. It’s up to the victim, the person left feeling violated.
Rape is about power. In fact, labeling abuse, molestation and rape as “sexual” violence is perhaps the greatest mistake in the English language. These crimes, though involving sexual organs, are not about sex. They are about power, and given the story Mike shared here, it’s pretty obvious the woman in question had all the power. Mike had none. That is the quintessential heart of rape.
Susan Brownmiller’s ground-breaking work on the issue of rape (“Against Our Will”) published in the 1970′s made it clear that the reason rape is resorted to is to clinch the sense of power over another person, or in more extreme cases, groups of people. Once you have exerted your will totally over another person, the best way to finish it up is to take the one thing that should rightfully always remain yours: your body.
Mike was drunk. In most states within the US, this alone means he could not consent. Mike was threatened with blackmail. Extortion is not only illegal, it takes the place of consent, which again translates into rape. But the overwhelming proof of Mike’s situation is his description of being afraid to respond. Many people are afraid of sex with strangers (disease, performance issues, possible regret the next day) but when we talk of terror, we are discussing violence, which is precisely what rape is. It’s isn’t strictly a women’s issue; it never should have been treated that way.
Real Feminism isn’t about painting issues (such as rape) as unique to women. As a Feminist myself, it disappoints me that people (MacKinnon comes to mind, actually; and Muscio to a lesser extent) have set up this dichotomy that only women are victims and only men perpetrate. They’d do well to visit the roots of the philosophy and recognize that women are more likely to be victims because men statistically are more aggressive, but this is changing. More men are coming forward with their testimonies of female aggressors, and there are a lot of sociological implications behind that.
The reality is, men can be raped, and women can be perpetrators. Women can rape women, men, children, and animals. It’s not the normal demographic, but neither is a Republican signing off on eco-friendly legislation. Still, it happens. And when we talk of fear, of violence and victimization, of bringing about an end to rape and the power an aggressor yields over their victim, what exists between a person’s legs becomes completely irrelevant.
Donna,
I continue to be amazed by the shameless, feckless, and just plain mean comments that are sprinkled in throughout this topic’s discussion. You’ve been more than patient with these morons, and I would not even dignify their comments with rebuke, as it is obvious they are impervious to being shamed.
A few of these comments are nothing more than taunts from insolent rascals.
But this is but one manifestation of where post-modernist society is headed.
Additionally, anyone who believes that a law is slanted in the women’s favor when it comes to rape–this is not so. Speaking again in the context that women are the most publicized of victims of this type of violence, and the most likely to pursue criminal solutions, it should be noted that the law is severely biased towards victims, period. Sexual violence are the only cases where the victim must prove innocence instead of proving the offender’s guilt.
That being said, rape is not a matter of misinterpretation. When Kobe Bryant had the audacity several years ago to declare on TV, “I understand now that she didn’t feel it was consensual,” they should have thrown him in jail again, because he was functionally admitting his guilt.
Mike has stated he was raped. The debate should end there. He doesn’t have to justify himself to us, and those of you seeking to punch holes in his story, to blame him (violence is never the fault of the violated) and otherwise discredit the silent epidemic sweeping the minds and bodies of our men, I imagine there are better uses for your time somewhere else.
“Mike has stated he was raped. The debate should end there. He doesn’t have to justify himself to us…”
Sorry, no. It clearly doesn’t end there for the same reason the debate about the Duke rape case didn’t end with the “victim’s” similarly absurd allegation. And ‘yes’, he absolutely does need to justify himself to us, and indeed to me personally.
If James Landrith is going to roll out a slip-shod allegation for public consumption he better get his story *cough* straight. Had he provided enough information to identify his alledged attacker, he would rightly be sued out of existence.
“I continue to be amazed by the shameless, feckless, and just plain mean comments that are sprinkled in throughout this topic’s discussion.”
Indeed fred. IS that how life is at your house? Anyone who dares to disagree with the Master of Moral Authority gets voted off the island?
Where is your sense of shame, fred?
Having read the comments here and the information about the law of at least some American states, I’m starting to modify my view. In the US it may well be that this counts as rape. In the UK it would be sexual assault. Either way, what the woman did was wrong. And either way, it is virtually impossible to prove.
However, this kind of abuse – as opposed to abuse of children by women – must surely be rare, because most men could restrain most women. The woman’s pregnancy seems to have worried “Mike” to the extent that he felt he could not restrain her. This is a particularly unusual set of circumstances, and while I am sympathetic to “Mike”, rape is overwhelmingly something that men do to women (and other men).
The mean spirited comments of some here are shameful in their ignorance and cruelty.
Men often get erect while sleeping, but that is not consent.
Some female rape victims become wet, and some even orgasm. Now, before anyone flogs me for that comment realize that police officers who speicalize in rape cases have reported this. Does this mean the women who became “aroused” were changing their minds or that they were consenting?
NO! Their BODIES were reacting to stimuli and not in synch with their minds. That is my point.
That Mike was erect does not mean consent was given. And his story is very credible. This woman wanted sex and she used the power of violence by proxy (the threat of police involvement and prison) to get what she wanted.
Men are, generally, stronger, but women know that and often use violence by proxy to acheive the same level of threat.
Any seen girls in junior or senior high who fling vile accusations at one another because of some snitty argument? Why is it so different?
Also, anyone who has trouble believing women rape should see the ground breaking movie about lesbian rape called:
“She stole my voice”
It’s about lesbians who have been raped by other women and how they are finally speaking up.
I hope I have added to the discussion.
Steven
“Snoop Diggity-DANG-Dawg:
“I continue to be amazed by the shameless, feckless, and just plain mean comments that are sprinkled in throughout this topic’s discussion.”
Indeed fred. IS that how life is at your house? Anyone who dares to disagree with the Master of Moral Authority gets voted off the island?
Where is your sense of shame, fred?”
How old are you, anyway? You sound like an angry adolescent or college student who does not like the fact that former Leftists like me can name your moronic statements for what they are: inspired by Lacan and Derrida.
Oh, and I wanted to add:
The truly screwed up thing is how the law would be used against this man.
This woman was pregnant, but let’s suppose she was not.
Had she had the child and then sued Mike for child support he would have been made to pay it.
In some states (I can cite references) a man who was passed out and assaulted or a boy who was statutatorially raped can be sued for child support even after the woman admits she raped or molested. You can look it up with a simple Google search.
We got rid of, mostly, the stereotypes that “a stranger in the bushes” is the most likely rapist (it’s mostly people we know) – now we need to accept that sexual violence can be committed by women as well as men.
Steven
I wanted to note this part of the story as it is important:
Dr Helen said:
“Crystal Gail Mangum who made false rape charges against the Duke students. Any jail time for her? Nope. Her reward for lying? She just finished her bachelors degree in “criminal psychology” of all things!”
And what sparked CGM to make those false allegations against the Duke 3 in the first place? A racial slur hurled at her? No, in fact SHE made a racial comment first and then was responded to in kind.
It was the fact that she was on parole and got caught being under the influence. She was going back to jail.
Regardless of whether she was charged, she undoubtedly should have been, she should have been scooped up for her parole violation and sent to prison to finish her term. Oh, and she was in prison for trying to run over a cop with her car.
Punishing false accusers is an essential first step. Punishing women who commit sexual assault needs to happen too.
Steven
bmmg39,
“Just like if a woman’s nipples become hard (or she “becomes wet”) while she’s being raped, then it’s “not really rape,” right?”
a woman’s or man’s erct nipples can’t insert themselves into a vagina or anus. and a vagina is moist to begin with, almost like your mouth is moist. Dear lord, i can’t even believe you wrote that. Apparently you’ve not had much experience with vaginas. are they dripping wet? no, we’d have endless mess in our panties, but we are moist throughout the day, night just as a matter of biology. so give me a break. A penis presses up against the labia (with is on the outside) which is dry. Ever put your finger inside a woman before? Maybe not.
Mary,
I haven’t read all of the posts, but rape in the UK does not depend upon the threat of physical violence. If you read the Sexual Offences Act of 2003, the legal definition of rape is:
(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b) B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
You are correct that under this law, a woman cannot rape a man. However they did institute a new crime, under section 4:
4 Causing a person to engage in sexual activity without consent
(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a) he intentionally causes another person (B) to engage in an activity,
(b) the activity is sexual,
(c) B does not consent to engaging in the activity, and
(d) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
This can carry the same punishments as rape.
I believe that many states laws have been changed in the US to reflect the belief that women can rape men. For instance, the Utah statute hinges upon consent and does not mention penetration. It states:
76-5-402. Rape.
(1) A person commits rape when the actor has sexual intercourse with another person without the victim’s consent.
(2) This section applies whether or not the actor is married to the victim.
Mary Jackson: However, this kind of abuse – as opposed to abuse of children by women – must surely be rare, because most men could restrain most women. The woman’s pregnancy seems to have worried “Mike” to the extent that he felt he could not restrain her. This is a particularly unusual set of circumstances, and while I am sympathetic to “Mike”, rape is overwhelmingly something that men do to women (and other men).
Well put Mary. The ONLY case of male rape by a woman I could find on the internets was in Australia. she was giving him oral sex i believe while he was drunk. He woke up during the act and put her off of him.
The fact remains. Any man can remove any woman whom he finds setting herself on his erect penis whereas most females cannot fend off a man who is dead set on raping her. Physical advantage > males. Much more frightening, much more traumatic, much more violation.
This story is just laughable and apparently FAR less frequent an offense.
However, this kind of abuse – as opposed to abuse of children by women – must surely be rare, because most men could restrain most women.
Unless one explains at what point it becomes clear when boys are to be considered stronger than women, technically one is implying that women cannot rape or forcibly sexually assault males of any age.
In light of that, it would appear then that one has not modified one’s view on male rape at all. One is still arguing that women cannot rape or forcibly sexually abuse anyone and that neither men or boys can be raped because they are generally strong and capable of restraining any potential rapist, particularly female rapists. (Yes, one did mentioned male-on-male assault, however, one’s logic could also apply in these cases given that most men and boys are as strong as other men, meaning that one’s argument is essentially that no boy or man can ever, has ever or will ever be raped.)
Toy Soldier, what is all this “one” business? I’m not the Queen.
I explicitly excluded minors, even in the bit you quoted.
implying that women cannot rape or forcibly sexually assault males of any age.
I explicitly say the opposite. Learn to read.
“Have you considered that where the status quo must be changed, you have to travel from one extreme to the other, in order to find the balance?”
If you don’t examine men’s issues, then who are women to be equal to in the end? To an ideal that is superior to any other condition of life? Men and women should be equal. I totally agree. For that to happen, men and women’s issues both need to be examined, and treated. There may be more work to do on women’s issues (particularly outside North America), but men’s issues can’t just be ignored either. I don’t say the focus should be solely on men’s issues either, but it’s common for them to be minimized, ignored or say “You got it easy, with all that privilege, so just suck it up.”
“Additionally, anyone who believes that a law is slanted in the women’s favor when it comes to rape–this is not so. Speaking again in the context that women are the most publicized of victims of this type of violence, and the most likely to pursue criminal solutions, it should be noted that the law is severely biased towards victims, period.”
Yes, especially when the law defines rape as a penis entering a vagina – that only a penis owner can rape someone else. Yeah, not slanted at all…I’m glad laws are made more gender-equal elsewhere, but the UK law is a glaring example.
The section 4 law mentioned in another post is a ‘separate but equal’ thing, why didn’t they judt amend the original law. Why must it be specific to a penis? It could be a dildo, a carrot, a mic for all I care – or not involve someone being penetrated either. If I’m forced to perform a blow job on someone, it’s rape.
toy soldier,
“meaning that one’s argument is essentially that no boy or man can ever, has ever or will ever be raped.”
The subject is about adult men and women. Adult woman forcing herself on an adult male. Adult women can be convicted of rape yes, when the male is an underage minor stated by each state with respect to age of concent. The determination behind such a law is that a teen minor child is not yet equip with the emotional and mental maturity for sex and can be therefore easily manipulated by an adult. The power the adult woman has lays more in the “manipulative” as has been seen in the most popular cases involving teachers of teen boys, unless of course said teen boys were overpowered/restrained/physically threatened. The later has not been shown to be the case however. Male on underage girl or boy rape and murder however, as has been the case with many convictions, have always presented the abuse of both manipulative as well the physical.
The issue of power, as it would relate to adult on adult rape, is more focused on the “physical” aspect of power. Adult Men biologically have more physical power over adult women.
“Adult Men biologically have more physical power over adult women.”
On average.
You see, I can play the averages too. Men are on average 5’9½ and 160 lbs. Women are on average 5’4½ and 130 lbs. You see averages everywhere? I see people everywhere, and people aren’t all neatly averaged. I know a 5’3″ 115 lbs guy, and I know a 6’0″ 250 lbs girl. Who would be stronger? Your averages won’t enter the picture, it’s a case-by-case thing.
The only real physical advantage men have is that testosterone is higher and testosterone favors muscle building – enough so that someone with average women levels of hormones needs to work out twice as much to achieve the same muscles as a man with the average men levels of hormones.
Does this mean everyone works out? That all men are top-shape, physically-fit and intimidating, like to fight and have no qualm about throwing a punch or pushing someone in a wall – simply because they have a penis?
I know plenty of boys and men who don’t like, for whatever reason, to fight. Even big 6’4″ 300 lbs guys who are muscled enough – who hate and avoid violence. The same can be said for some boys and men of a lesser size, say 5’4″ and 125 lbs (at adult size), who abhor violence and have a pacifist ideology. Do they absolutely need to fight, for the honor of what’s between their legs? Do they need to like it?
“The issue of power, as it would relate to adult on adult rape, is more focused on the “physical” aspect of power. Adult Men biologically have more physical power over adult women.”
The issue is one of consent. If I feel forced to do something sexual against my will, by physical force, bondage, threats of any kind, blackmail – it will be rape. Wether they are 4’0″ and 60 lbs dwarfs or 7’1″ 200 lbs Shaqs.
Well. Wow.
Some of you, literally disgust me with your comments. I’m nineteen years old and I can say, I believe Mike. I can also say that some of the responses I’m seeing here, are not at all called for. Some of the responses are just.. Pathetic..
Who is anyone to say what Rape really is? I mean, last I heard, Rape was non-consensual sex. The point of this whole post was not to have you all mock him, call him unmanly or say he’s lying. It’s to bring awareness to the fact that YES, men do and CAN get raped. Women aren’t the only victim and it’s NOT at all surprising that more men don’t come forward. Read what you’ve all said. Then honestly ask yourself if you would openly come into comments like these. Seriously. People. Some of you need to get a grip on reality.
Oh and “A DANE”? Telling someone to get over something because it’s been 17 years? Really isn’t your place to say. Doesn’t matter how long it’s been, doesn’t matter what you think either. The facts are, people heal at their OWN pace and YOU don’t have the RIGHT to TELL SOMEONE ELSE, how fast they should heal. That’s like telling me to get over my Sexual Abuse because it’s been a year. Bullshit. That’s just, plain stupid and ignorant.
Some of your posts here, have really irritated me, and make me sad to think that some of you actually have the NERVE to write this stuff. This kind of thing DOES happen.
I explicitly excluded minors, even in the bit you quoted.
Which I acknowledged, however, one’s general argument is not based on age, but on males’ strength in comparison to that of females, rendering the male’s age irrelevant. To demonstrate this point, had Mike been 17-years-old instead of 19-years-old would one have considered his experience rape? Would he not be able to “restrain most women”? Would he not be “strong enough have stopped her”? Would his age be the only factor that would then make it rape even though the situation is exactly the same?
One may be offended (which is rather ironic), but the fact is that I am simply taking one’s argument to its logical conclusion. If one will argue that an adult woman can rape a 17-year-old boy or a 16-year-old boy or a 15-year-old boy or a 14-year-old, 13-year-old, 12-year-old, 11-year-old boy and so on, then it is reasonable to ask why one does not think a woman can rape a 19-year-old young man.
Do they absolutely need to fight, for the honor of what’s between their legs? Do they need to like it?
Lot’s of guys apparently don’t like what’s dangling between their legs. They don’t make up a rape charge though. They save up and get the she-man surgery.
Who is anyone to say what Rape really is?
Absolutely. If a woman, like that one at Duke, says she’s raped… she is. And if 17 years later, a guy so drunk he was physically unable to push a pregnant lady off him and leave the room … why of course it’s rape.
And if it wasn’t good sex, well that can be rape too according to your definition, right? Or if the drunks screwing have second thoughts? Rape clearly, no need to ask any questions about the story if the facts dont add up…
Everybody’s a victim in today’s America, eh? And there’s plenty of doctors like helen willing to take your money, write about you, and maybe even prescribe a pill to make all the bad memories/hurt feeling go away.
Well you learned something about people’s attitudes, didn’t you? This is the thing that you learn about the men’s rights movement; there’s an unbelievable amount of resistance to acknowledging that there are problems, because there’s so much cultural investment in man: beast, woman: victim on the part of both men and women, left and right, that many people are too indimidated to even come out and debate.
However, things have gotten so far out of balance (specifically in family law), I think this is starting to change. I think that what is probably the last sanctioned prejudice may be on its way out. But it’s not going without a fight.
The subject is about adult men and women. Adult woman forcing herself on an adult male.
Actually, the subject is about whether or not Mike was raped by a woman. The excuse for mocking and diminishing his experience is that he is male and that women are apparently incapable of physically harming, hurting, overpowering or restraining males. To the extent that Mike was old enough to be considered a man is sheer coincidence. Those mocking him and those saying that his experience is not rape would and often do make the exact same argument when the victim is clearly a minor.
The issue of power, as it would relate to adult on adult rape, is more focused on the “physical” aspect of power.
Most of the literature on rape focuses on the rapist using coercion, manipulation and fear to rape, sometimes in conjunction with physical assaults and/or threats, but often times without it. However, it is impossible to determine whether such assaults or threats were made against male victims by female rapists unless those men and boys report it, which they have little incentive to do given the generally hostile response they receive.
However, to the extent that one believes that female sexual assaults do not focus on physical power, there is evidence to suggest otherwise. The important thing to note is that the victim was ashamed of what was done to him that he initially told the police that men had tortured him. His response may be what many male victims do when they must seek treatment for violent sexual assaults committed by women.
This is the link I forgot to add.
Schala,
The difference between men and women that you seem to exclude? muscle. Men have more of it while women have more fat. Another point you seem to exclude? Testosterone.
Schala,
Bone density. Male skeletal structure bone for bone compared to a female is bigger, heavier. Even if the man and woman are the exact same height.
I really don’t think you can win this argument unless we talk about a woman who has possession of a fire arm at the time of rape OR, that she has a black belt. Then you might just win the argument.
T S,
The argument you present apparently was to also accompany the link. According to the story which is horrendous for the young boy and my opinion is that these girls got exactly what they deserved. In that respect I am pleased that this boy got justice and the girls, punished. That being said, the fact remains that there was a trio of girls who tortured that poor boy, all of whom were about the same age. Disgusting behaviour by any human being towards another but had there only been 1 girl against that 1 boy do you think the outcome would have been the same?
Absolutely. I see no reason to assume that a boy could hurt a girl but a girl cannot hurt a boy. It is a rather asinine notion, particularly if the argument is based on the boy’s level of strength as it would imply that a boy assaulted by multiple girls should be able to fend them off, and it would likewise imply that a boy could fend off any assault by another solo boy or an adult male.
Mary: “However, this kind of abuse – as opposed to abuse of children by women – must surely be rare, because most men could restrain most women.”
Mary, I will disagree with you respectfully (respectfully because you are one of the few dissenters on the “rape” label who’s trying to be mature about the topic).
First, I don’t see why you think women abusing children is so rare. Second, with respect to women raping/sexually assaulting men, just look at how one man who’s come forward is being treated by about half of the people who are receiving his story. Do you not think this (and other aspects of societal roles and gender stereotypes) will cause other male victims to keep quiet? Third, the size/strength of the people involved isn’t usually relevant, and sometimes even benefits the smaller, weaker person. Just as in the cases of women committing domestic abuse against men, the woman often feels as though she has the freedom to hurt her partner, predicting he won’t strike back because a.) he’s naturally passive, b.) he’s afraid of hurting her, and/or c.) he’s afraid that HE will be the one to go to jail if he defends himself (and, infuriatingly, in some areas, this is still the case). Many people automatically take the woman’s side in such cases, purely because she’s a woman, and many of those people wear police uniforms or black robes.
ddc: “a woman’s or man’s erct [sic] nipples can’t insert themselves into a vagina or anus.”
True dat! It’s also completely irrelevant to the story! The question revolves around whether or not a woman SEEMINGLY showing signs of being aroused would negate a rape charge. The answer is “no.” Ditto for a man with an erection.
transcended: “The difference between men and women that you seem to exclude? muscle. Men have more of it while women have more fat. Another point you seem to exclude? Testosterone.”
Did you even make it to Schala’s third paragraph, transcended?
bmmg 39, please look again at what I said:
this kind of abuse – as opposed to abuse of children by women – must surely be rare
“As opposed to” is the key phrase. I’m not saying that women abusing children is rare, but that women raping grown men is rare.
As regards to the abused man coming forward, I understand, better, now, in the light of some comments, that this presents particular problems for a man, particularly a marine, of which an unfeeling attitude is expected. In many cases his account will go unheard. This is wrong, as I have maintained from the outset.
Rape/sexual assault, whatever the law, and whatever people’s attitudes, remains difficult to prove unless corroborated by third-party evidence. The law is a blunt instrument and not correlated with justice. “Mike” did not receive justice.
Please read my (not anti-male) article at New English Review on rape and the ineffectiveness of the law in dealing with it. This applies mainly to women, but also to men.
Mary, I apologize. I still disagree with your main point, but I retract my “first” point of 5:06 p.m.; I think I originally read that as “as is,” not “as opposed to.”
Our difference with you is mostly one of semantics. You do see him as a victim of something vile, and we appreciate that, no matter what we call the crime against him.
You do see him as a victim of something vile, and we appreciate that, no matter what we call the crime against him.
Indeed.
“Lot’s of guys apparently don’t like what’s dangling between their legs. They don’t make up a rape charge though. They save up and get the she-man surgery.”
Those that do have never been men in the first place. But please that’s off-topic.
“The difference between men and women that you seem to exclude? muscle. Men have more of it while women have more fat. Another point you seem to exclude? Testosterone.”
Re-read my last post, completely please, you might find I addressed just that.
“Bone density. Male skeletal structure bone for bone compared to a female is bigger, heavier. Even if the man and woman are the exact same height.”
Right, in every case. Is that like saying, since women are on average 5’4½, a man who’s 5’5″ is automatically taller than ANY woman on Earth? I know plenty of guys with smaller bones than many girls I know, yes.
I’m 5’6″, my mom is 5’2″, our skeletal structures are similar (we’re both rather slim) but hers is slightly bigger, and thus heavier. Yet I’m taller. My bone structure is very small compared to average, even if I’m taller than the average woman, I’m lighter than the great majority (over 90%) of people of any height – as long as they reached maturity, of course (and I have, I’m 25).
It doesn’t follow that men are naturally heavier in skeletal structure for the same height. Just as some families produce tall children, some produce big-boned (but slim) children, and there’s enough variety to prove you wrong that any man is automatically heavier than any woman of the same height.
I was considered a man (erroneously, but legally still) at some point in my life, a 5’6″, 100 lbs man. Believe me, I’ve seen my share of heavier people, of 5’6″ or lower.
“True dat! It’s also completely irrelevant to the story! The question revolves around whether or not a woman SEEMINGLY showing signs of being aroused would negate a rape charge. The answer is “no.” Ditto for a man with an erection.”
you seem to be trying, very hard, to equate the nipple and a penis, in terms of arousal as being equal. Many women’s nipples stay “erect” 24/7. A man whose penis is erect 24/7 usually has a medical issue. Those same women are not even aware of this until they look at their refection in a store window, a mirror or down at themselves. It has little to do with arousal. we don’t EVER feel our nipples getting nipply. Now does a man realize when his penis is getting erect? Or are men completely unaware? Do you think a woman’s nipple gets a nip-erection while watching porn or looking at pictures of men naked? I hope not. Can the same be said of a penis.
A nipple and a penis do not act the same way. If they did, a penis wouldn’t experience shrinkage when exposed to cold water. Nipples on the other hand, become nipply when exposed to cold.
So in conclusion. No. Not the same.
Look ddc, the point is, a penis can get erect even without any arousal. It can get erect for virtually any reason. About erect nipples, I’ve never had them erect 24/7, I don’t know people who do, either. Maybe they exist, I don’t know.
The correct correlation however is a vagina becoming wet. Say all you want that it’s always wet, but I’m sure some women would know that it’s not as wet as when aroused. And that it can be an involuntary stimulation, like an erection. I can distinguish when I get aroused, too.
And if it wasn’t good sex, well that can be rape too according to your definition, right? Or if the drunks screwing have second thoughts? Rape clearly, no need to ask any questions about the story if the facts dont add up…
Everybody’s a victim in today’s America, eh? And there’s plenty of doctors like helen willing to take your money, write about you, and maybe even prescribe a pill to make all the bad memories/hurt feeling go away.
Ah, if the act of sex is started, and then the male or female says “No.” or does not want to continue, while the other decides to continue? Then yes. If it wasn’t good sex? That cannot be considered Rape. I never said, don’t ask questions, but from what I’ve read, some of you haven’t been asking questions, just mocking ect.
Ha, about this whole doctor making money thing, just cause he’s trying to bring awareness to the issue doesn’t mean he’s looking for sympathy. If he was, what would make you think he’d post it here where he’s been mocked ect.? Obviously some people in America are too oblivious that Rape is NOT just a crime against women.
I would like to point out that our bodies are programed by nature to respond to stimulation, wanted or not. This situation is appalling, and some of the responses I have read here are even worse. Male rape generally goes unreported because of the social ideas that if a man is victimized he is less of a man, but keeping silent is devastating to the man.We have compassion for women who are raped (which is as it should be).Why can’t we have the same compassion and understanding for men.Truth be known, the number of male victims rivals that of women.
Anu:
Sioux Lady:
I am just as confused as you.If fear causes erection then there are milloins of men who are afraid all the time!!
If the story is true, not a fantasy or a Hollywood script, then of course it was rape.I can understand Mike’s long lasting anger;he was forced to a situation in which he was totally powerless.
kevin,
i believe a man can be victimized. If raped by another man he’s more of a victim. by a woman? Hard to swallow (excuse the pun). By a pregnant woman, twice in one night? even harder to swallow.
bad sex, sex with someone you regret having sex with while drunk? If you have 10 people in a room at least half will have experienced that. I mean I can admit to that. And i can also think about it now and smack myself for putting myself in that positionb but it isn’t rape.
“i believe a man can be victimized. If raped by another man he’s more of a victim. by a woman? Hard to swallow (excuse the pun). By a pregnant woman, twice in one night? even harder to swallow.”
Please cut the misogyny and misandry.
Misogyny because: Women can’t possibly hurt a man (hence child-like physical capacities)
Misandry because: No real man would ever get raped or be a victim to a woman in any way whatsoever (subhuman males – not worthy of concern).
Mylai,
To be honest it sounds more like and, “oh man, i feel sick that I actually had sex with such a fatty. it kinda makes me sick that i let her talk me into it/went along with it.” it happens, it’s not rape, it’s just him feeling like he 1. being drunk, he lowered his standards just for sex and ever since, feels ashamed. Which can be quite as “soul-crushing.”
A very handsome a good male friend who was in the airforce, once told us that he’d gone to a hotel with this one very unattractive woman (because she was one of the few women in that bar and was very willing) and had to close his eyes while having sex with her. that it still freaked him out when he thought about “doing her.” Obviously doing-HER was not someone he especially WANTED to do, but did anyway.
Buyers remorse sucks.
Honestly, Dr. Helen, I really think we’d be better off without discussions like this. There are areas, such as paternity, where men are REALLY getting screwed, and those who bring up such injustices need to be taken seriously. When you start taking up EVERY male vs. female cause, including those in which only a small minority of men would sympathize with the man, you run the risk of discrediting all men’s causes.
It’s the reverse of “anti-rape” feminists who declare all sex to be rape and largely ignore real rape cases.
Furthermore, anti-male prejudice isn’t always about man vs. women at all. Many times, a manly-looking male who gets into a dispute, even a non-violent one, with an effeminate male–whether gay or straight–will be treated by legal or corporate authorities as if he’s bullying a virtual woman. Put it this way: if a male hairdresser at a department store makes a nasty remark about a male dockworker in front of several others with the intent of humiliating him, and the dockworker bluntly tells him where to stick it, it ought to be dealt with the same way as if both were dockworkers. But it seldom is. Usually, people will act as if the dockworker is little short of a woman beater, even if no violence was involved.
My point? First of all, pick your battles wisely; and second, not every anti-male injustice is done by a woman.
Interesting how this place is a cesspool of sexism.
“A very handsome a good male friend who was in the airforce, once told us that he’d gone to a hotel with this one very unattractive woman (because she was one of the few women in that bar and was very willing) and had to close his eyes while having sex with her.”
In other words, he CHOSE to have sex with her. Do you still fail to see the difference between that case and this one?
“When you start taking up EVERY male vs. female cause, including those in which only a small minority of men would sympathize with the man, you run the risk of discrediting all men’s causes.”
Small minority? Have you read this entire thread? Men are sick of this double standard and are beginning to show it.
If they drank enough to be passed out, not many men could fend off the female rapist.
In most rape cases that I’m familiar with, the victim’s ability or willingness to defend himself (or herself) is a moot point. Either they’re knocked out or disoriented by “date rape” type drugs, or the predator takes advantage of a drunk / vulnerable victim in a seemingly harmless social situation (apparently this is what happened to the marine). Serial rapists will find some advantage over their potential victims, whether it’s drugs, weapon or just a menacing presence.
Victims and criminals aren’t on equal terms, regardless of gender. If a 5’5 170 pound masked woman jumped me in my room I’m do exactly what she wants me to do, rape, a funny bunny dance, or whatever. I could probably beat her up, but….. how do I know if she’s concealing a gun somewhere? What if she has accomplices? Does she know my family members? If we could anticipate and react rationally in the face of crime, there wouldn’t be any.
The only men who would think this was worth talking about are either (1) highly “sensitive” men who are the same type who are always snitching to the boss when someone “offends” them; or (2) men who have it in for women on account of getting screwed. And, as I said before, men do get screwed in paternity, etc. You can either throw the whole case away in order to get back at women who had nothing to do with the screw job you were given, and benefit your own sense of righteousness–or you can fight on the legitimate front of paternity, alimony, et al, and do something for other men. You or them. It’s that simple.
Another factor–people realize that men and women are different physically, but I don’t know if many of you realize how different. I remember a friend who was a high school track runner who was somewhat amazed to find out that there were less than five women in the world that were faster than him. He was pretty sure that it was only one (Flo-Jo). In terms of strength, I’m only in about the 70th percentile among men (a rough estimate); yet I can’t recall a single woman since puberty who was stronger than me.
This isn’t saying that there’s no woman who could take me. There are female black belts out there who could do it. So I’d have to conclude that the woman-on-man violence CAN be a legitimate issue, even if it does seem a little overblown. (Personally, I like “feisty” women, although I have my limits). Rape, however, isn’t just decking somebody. It’s holding them down in a subdued manner and simultaneously performing sexually on them. That requires either a huge differential in strength, a group of people, or the credible threat of death. (I believe prison rapes often use one of the latter two methods, even though many prisoners are very strong from weight lifting).
“The only men who would think this was worth talking about are either (1) highly “sensitive” men who are the same type who are always snitching to the boss when someone “offends” them”
You see, that’s what’s wrong with people’s attitude towards this. They’ll first dismiss it could be true, and then call his masculinity into question.
Convenient that you can’t call a woman who was raped’s feminity into question, cause some even expect “being weak” to be a feminine trait, and hence, somewhat positive or something (for a woman).
Just quit the BS though, it’s obvious that it can happen, more than you think too. And if it happens to you, you’ll see how hard it can be to cope when people basically tell you “That’s impossible.” or “You’re a wuss.”
“she was pregnant and not my type in the slightest.”
I just can’t get past thinking this was a case of buyer’s remorse, the morning after. Men accuse women, who find themselves in the same situation, of the same all the time and without even a second thought. Claiming that it was all her fault for putting herself in a dangerous situation, shouldn’t have been drunk, shouldn’t have gone into that hotel room, accepted that ride, wore that short skirt, shouldn’t have acted like flirty (i.e. a slut) etc, etc, right? So what in anyone’s mind makes this man more believable? Nothing. Yet every male commentor and a few female commentors immediately accept his account of the story as fact and called the few who don’t believe him, feminazi’s. There’s your double standard right there.
Would be great if we could here HER side of the story. You know the saying, there’s her side, there’s his side and then there’s the truth…
Because truth be told, i’ll think he’s full of it.
Would be great if we could here HER side of the story.
It would be a rather interesting story listening to the woman explain how she was so victimized by having sex with an unconscious man.
As for believing the story, there is a significant difference which would dissuade men or boys from lying about rape: people generally will not believe them. The same is not true with women. While some people do not, a lot of people do, which is how one gets the afore mentioned Duke case. That would not happen in the reverse because people would still mock the male victim.
As for every male poster and a few female posters immediately accepting the story, did one actually read the comments posted here? They are not, by and large, positive, particularly not the comments from male posters.
This guy, while raped, was relatively lucky, if what a friend of mine who has visited Jamaica just told me is true. He said that in Jamaica, sometimes the women (black) kidnap white men and gang rape them. They’ll strap the man down, force a hot pepper concoction into his urethra to get an erection. Apparently there is more detail than this, but my friend squeamishly refused to tell me more. Anyway, they have their way with him, and then kill him.
Can anyone confirm or deny that this ever takes place?
As for you folks who scoff at the Marine’s story, shame on you. This is the kind of calloused dismissal that keeps men from talking about very real issues, like circumcision, rape, separation from their children and other abuse.
This story illustrates the distinction between the “legal” definition of rape, and the “social” definition. Years ago, those two definitions were more closely linked, but hardcore feminism split them, with their insistence that a husband could “rape” his wife. Once the legal definition of rape was reduced to the lack of positive consent, marital rape became a crime, and the teller of this story can claim that he was raped.
By the social definition – sexual activity coerced by physical force, with an almost always female (exceptions – brutal homosexual male to male and young minors) victim with no previous sexual activity between the two actors – neither marital rape nor the story above qualify.
The crime of rape has been considered heinous because of the factors involved in the social definition, and applying the sanctions and stigma of “rapist” to either of the two situations I’ve described is wrong. The story that started this discussion would not cause most men to feel what this man seems to say he does, so applying the serious legal penalties to his “attacker” is overkill. The same applies to marital rape – the act is exactly the same as (probably) hundreds of other times, and calling it “rape” does not make it so, and dilutes the accusation when valid (charge of assault and battery in that case would be appropriate).
Let’s save the charge of “rape” for times when it deserves the special place in law reserved for it; when the crime does serious physical and mental damage.
Ah…the opportunity to summarise…
A weak or weakened woman is a call to arms.
A weak or weakened man is an object of derision.
A man weakened by a woman is a woman.
“The story that started this discussion would not cause most men to feel what this man seems to say he does, so applying the serious legal penalties to his ‘attacker’ is overkill.”
Again, your bogus statement that “most men” would not feel violated — even if it were true, which it is not — bears no impact upon what this man felt and feels. Bud, neither you nor anyone else gets to decide how this man should be feeling.
“The same applies to marital rape – the act is exactly the same as (probably) hundreds of other times, and calling it “rape” does not make it so, and dilutes the accusation when valid (charge of assault and battery in that case would be appropriate).”
Are you serious? I have to be reading this wrong. Rape is rape is rape. Doesn’t matter who does it, doesn’t matter the relation of the two people. Sex without consent IS rape.
Going by this definition, it would be impossible to rape a “slut” or a prostitute. (Who CAN be raped, despite society’s standards.) Since a slut has sex all the time, what’s one instance or rape? Um, no, rape is traumatizing no matter where it comes from. It can be even worse when it comes from someone you trust. (IE, a husband)
It dilutes “valid” rape charges? What constitutes a valid rape? Does the rapist have to be a stranger? Does the victim have to be a virgin? Your line of reasoning is completely flawed here…rape is rape, whether it happens in marriage or dating or with an acquaintance. Doesn’t matter who does it . (As in Mike’s case.)
I can’t believe the idiocy of some people. Just look at most people’s responses: he’s called a sissy, a liar and a coward. Why the heck would someone make up a story like this when it gets them insulted so much? I highly doubt male survivor would co