Comments on: Are Parochial Schools ‘Racist’? http://pjmedia.com/blog/are-parochial-schools-racist/ Wed, 15 Feb 2012 19:21:41 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Elle http://pjmedia.com/blog/are-parochial-schools-racist/#comment-366736 Elle Wed, 05 Aug 2009 02:03:11 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=63047#comment-366736 Mary, This woman and her child were not rejected in any way because of ethnic origin. The woman was rejected because the religious authorities found that her conversion was not sincere and that she was not, in fact, living her life according to the priciples of the Orthodox tradition. I repeat that if Muslim religious authorities had barred an individual from a Mosque or religious school on the grounds that the family in question was not living according to the principles of that religious tradion the Court would not have interfered. The difference is owing to the fear of Muslim violence and the disrespect towards Jews, particularly Orthodox Jews. One may not agree with Rabbi Sacks or with all the views held by the Orthodox community. However, in a free country where they threaten noone and provide an excellent education to their students they should be left alone. Mary,
This woman and her child were not rejected in any way because of ethnic origin. The woman was rejected because the religious authorities found that her conversion was not sincere and that she was not, in fact, living her life according to the priciples of the Orthodox tradition.
I repeat that if Muslim religious authorities had barred an individual from a Mosque or religious school on the grounds that the family in question was not living according to the principles of that religious tradion the Court would not have interfered.
The difference is owing to the fear of Muslim violence and the disrespect towards Jews, particularly Orthodox Jews.
One may not agree with Rabbi Sacks or with all the views held by the Orthodox community. However, in a free country where they threaten noone and provide an excellent education to their students they should be left alone.

]]> By: Carol Gould http://pjmedia.com/blog/are-parochial-schools-racist/#comment-366650 Carol Gould Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:50:30 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=63047#comment-366650 Michael, The 'fringes?' Sacks has been nominated to the House of Lords. In 2001 he was endowed with a Doctor of Divinity from the Archbishop of Canterbury. The Gryn controversy was covered in every British broadsheet. This from the Daily Telegraph of 28 Aug 2002: '..Dr Sacks has disappointed liberals by proving as orthodox as his predecessor on most religious issues. One of his worst moments followed the death of Hugo Gryn, the popular Reform rabbi known for his appearances on Radio 4's The Moral Maze. 'Dr Sacks refused to attend his funeral on religious grounds, but to avoid a public row he agreed to speak at the memorial service and found himself condemned by ultra orthodox rabbis. 'To placate them, he wrote a letter attacking Dr Gryn as "a person who is amongst those who destroy the faith". The letter was leaked, provoking an outcry from which Dr Sacks took several years to recover.' The TIMES Higher education (fringe?) wrote on 14 February 1997: 'Orthodox Jews have pleaded with Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks not to attend a memorial service for the liberal rabbi Hugo Gryn. Most non-Jews are mystified if not appalled at such an apparent lack of compassion..' The Roman Catholic Tablet: '..the well-loved rabbi and broadcaster whose untimely death in 1996 was mourned so widely’ http://www.naomigryn.com/Chasing%20Shadows%20quotes.htm Penguin Books: 'The death of Rabbi Hugo Gryn in 1996 was an occasion of great sadness for millions who had enjoyed his contributions to Radio Four's THE MORAL MAZE..' Michael,
The ‘fringes?’ Sacks has been nominated to the House of Lords. In 2001 he was endowed with a Doctor of Divinity from the Archbishop of Canterbury.
The Gryn controversy was covered in every British broadsheet. This from the Daily Telegraph of 28 Aug 2002:

‘..Dr Sacks has disappointed liberals by proving as orthodox as his predecessor on most religious issues. One of his worst moments followed the death of Hugo Gryn, the popular Reform rabbi known for his appearances on Radio 4′s The Moral Maze.

‘Dr Sacks refused to attend his funeral on religious grounds, but to avoid a public row he agreed to speak at the memorial service and found himself condemned by ultra orthodox rabbis.

‘To placate them, he wrote a letter attacking Dr Gryn as “a person who is amongst those who destroy the faith”. The letter was leaked, provoking an outcry from which Dr Sacks took several years to recover.’

The TIMES Higher education (fringe?) wrote on 14 February 1997: ‘Orthodox Jews have pleaded with Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks not to attend a memorial service for the liberal rabbi Hugo Gryn. Most non-Jews are mystified if not appalled at such an apparent lack of compassion..’

The Roman Catholic Tablet: ‘..the well-loved rabbi and broadcaster whose untimely death in 1996 was mourned so widely’

http://www.naomigryn.com/Chasing%20Shadows%20quotes.htm

Penguin Books:
‘The death of Rabbi Hugo Gryn in 1996 was an occasion of great sadness for millions who had enjoyed his contributions to Radio Four’s THE MORAL MAZE..’

]]> By: Anonymous http://pjmedia.com/blog/are-parochial-schools-racist/#comment-366483 Anonymous Tue, 04 Aug 2009 17:54:44 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=63047#comment-366483 I see the different denomination of Judaism like I see the difference between Christian denominations. Several inner city baptist parents send their children to catholic schools with the understanding that their children will receive a catholic education with all the the expectations that go with them. I don't see why this principle cannot be applied here. If you want your child to coke to this orthodx school, she will be expects to follow our rules while she is here. Seems simple enough to me. I am glad that we have separation of church and state in this country(USA). Because some of this controversy does not exist here. If you want to keep outsiders out, refuse government money and support. I see the different denomination of Judaism like I see the difference between Christian denominations. Several inner city baptist parents send their children to catholic schools with the understanding that their children will receive a catholic education with all the the expectations that go with them. I don’t see why this principle cannot be applied here. If you want your child to coke to this orthodx school, she will be expects to follow our rules while she is here. Seems simple enough to me. I am glad that we have separation of church and state in this country(USA). Because some of this controversy does not exist here. If you want to keep outsiders out, refuse government money and support.

]]> By: Michael http://pjmedia.com/blog/are-parochial-schools-racist/#comment-366177 Michael Tue, 04 Aug 2009 10:33:28 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=63047#comment-366177 "The intransigence of Jonathan Sacks is at the core of this issue. In 1996 when the JC leaked his infamous ‘destroyer of the faith’ letter written to Dayan Chanoch Padwa to elaborate on his absence from Rabbi Gryn’s funeral he upset vast swathes of the nation." Good Lord! Which nation was this? I live in England and if vast swathes of my neighbours were upset I missed it! Most of us in England are Christian. We might not be very good Christians. But that is what we are. The trouble is, Ms Gould writes about the fringes - the ones who are fighting each other like ferrets in a sack. “The intransigence of Jonathan Sacks is at the core of this issue. In 1996 when the JC leaked his infamous ‘destroyer of the faith’ letter written to Dayan Chanoch Padwa to elaborate on his absence from Rabbi Gryn’s funeral he upset vast swathes of the nation.”

Good Lord! Which nation was this? I live in England and if vast swathes of my neighbours were upset I missed it!

Most of us in England are Christian. We might not be very good Christians. But that is what we are. The trouble is, Ms Gould writes about the fringes – the ones who are fighting each other like ferrets in a sack.

]]> By: Owls Fan http://pjmedia.com/blog/are-parochial-schools-racist/#comment-366093 Owls Fan Tue, 04 Aug 2009 02:18:12 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=63047#comment-366093 Mary Jackson writes: "England is the most tolerant country in the world when it comes to religion, superior by far to the sectarian Celts." Mary, you might want to work on that whole tolerance thing. I don't think you've got it down quite yet. Mary Jackson writes: “England is the most tolerant country in the world when it comes to religion, superior by far to the sectarian Celts.”

Mary, you might want to work on that whole tolerance thing. I don’t think you’ve got it down quite yet.

]]> By: Carol Gould http://pjmedia.com/blog/are-parochial-schools-racist/#comment-366047 Carol Gould Mon, 03 Aug 2009 23:09:51 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=63047#comment-366047 The intransigence of Jonathan Sacks is at the core of this issue. In 1996 when the JC leaked his infamous 'destroyer of the faith' letter written to Dayan Chanoch Padwa to elaborate on his absence from Rabbi Gryn's funeral he upset vast swathes of the nation. Gryn was a beloved radio commentator on 'The Moral Maze' and the conroversy about Sacks and the funeral got into thet maistream press, with the TIMES even penning a leader editorial. Notwithstanding his superb scholarship Sacks is essentially a reactionary and this trickled down to JFS. It would be interesting to hear from American PJM readers if there is anyone as powerful as the British Chief Rabbi in the USA. The intransigence of Jonathan Sacks is at the core of this issue. In 1996 when the JC leaked his infamous ‘destroyer of the faith’ letter written to Dayan Chanoch Padwa to elaborate on his absence from Rabbi Gryn’s funeral he upset vast swathes of the nation. Gryn was a beloved radio commentator on ‘The Moral Maze’ and the conroversy about Sacks and the funeral got into thet maistream press, with the TIMES even penning a leader editorial. Notwithstanding his superb scholarship Sacks is essentially a reactionary and this trickled down to JFS. It would be interesting to hear from American PJM readers if there is anyone as powerful as the British Chief Rabbi in the USA.

]]> By: yankev http://pjmedia.com/blog/are-parochial-schools-racist/#comment-365887 yankev Mon, 03 Aug 2009 17:47:55 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=63047#comment-365887 Mary J, I stand corrected. According to the article by Rabbi Wittenberg (who, it should be noted, is a rabbi of a movement that actively rejects Orthodox Judaism), the mother was converted by an Orthodox court in Israel but the Orthodox court in London declined to certify the conversion because they found that subsequent events showed that the conversion was not sincere. The principle remains, though, that a government must permit a religious body to determine its own standards for conversion, and in this case the court refused to do so because the court -- like Rabbi Wittenberg -- does not like those standards. Mary J, I stand corrected. According to the article by Rabbi Wittenberg (who, it should be noted, is a rabbi of a movement that actively rejects Orthodox Judaism), the mother was converted by an Orthodox court in Israel but the Orthodox court in London declined to certify the conversion because they found that subsequent events showed that the conversion was not sincere. The principle remains, though, that a government must permit a religious body to determine its own standards for conversion, and in this case the court refused to do so because the court — like Rabbi Wittenberg — does not like those standards.

]]> By: yankev http://pjmedia.com/blog/are-parochial-schools-racist/#comment-365883 yankev Mon, 03 Aug 2009 17:42:17 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=63047#comment-365883 #42 "If a Muslim school rejected someone on grounds of ethnic origin – and the parents took the school to court – the verdict would be the same." It has nothing to do with ethnic origin. There is no dispute that if the girl were to convert according to the laws of Orthodox Judiasm, or if the mother had done so before the girl was born, the girl would have been admitted. There is no dispute that neither the girl nor her mother believe in the Orthodox Jewish religion; if they did, they would not be asserting the theory that the mother's non-Orthodox conversion renders the mother or the child Jewish. If the girl does indeed believe, then she can convert and the school will admit her. What really happened is that the court said that Orthodox Jews may not administer their own religious affairs in accordance with their religion's doctrine and laws concerning conversion because the court does not care for the doctrine. #42 “If a Muslim school rejected someone on grounds of ethnic origin – and the parents took the school to court – the verdict would be the same.”
It has nothing to do with ethnic origin. There is no dispute that if the girl were to convert according to the laws of Orthodox Judiasm, or if the mother had done so before the girl was born, the girl would have been admitted. There is no dispute that neither the girl nor her mother believe in the Orthodox Jewish religion; if they did, they would not be asserting the theory that the mother’s non-Orthodox conversion renders the mother or the child Jewish. If the girl does indeed believe, then she can convert and the school will admit her. What really happened is that the court said that Orthodox Jews may not administer their own religious affairs in accordance with their religion’s doctrine and laws concerning conversion because the court does not care for the doctrine.

]]> By: yankev http://pjmedia.com/blog/are-parochial-schools-racist/#comment-365880 yankev Mon, 03 Aug 2009 17:36:45 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=63047#comment-365880 Mary Jackson, the school is run by Orthodox Jews according to the beliefs of Orthodox judaism. According to those beliefs, the mother's conversion was not and never was valid. She was converted by Reform Rabbis according to the beliefs of Reform Judaism. Let her choose a school of that sect for her child. Morevover,anyone who believes that the mother is now Jewish, or that the daughter is Jewish, by definitions rejects a core belief of Orthodox Judaism. Demand that this girl be treated as Jewish by an Orthodox school is nothing less than a demand that a given religion abandon its unfashionable beliefs about who is and is not a valid convert, and substitute someone else's more fashionable beliefs on that subject. Mary Jackson, the school is run by Orthodox Jews according to the beliefs of Orthodox judaism. According to those beliefs, the mother’s conversion was not and never was valid. She was converted by Reform Rabbis according to the beliefs of Reform Judaism. Let her choose a school of that sect for her child. Morevover,anyone who believes that the mother is now Jewish, or that the daughter is Jewish, by definitions rejects a core belief of Orthodox Judaism. Demand that this girl be treated as Jewish by an Orthodox school is nothing less than a demand that a given religion abandon its unfashionable beliefs about who is and is not a valid convert, and substitute someone else’s more fashionable beliefs on that subject.

]]> By: Mary Jackson http://pjmedia.com/blog/are-parochial-schools-racist/#comment-365849 Mary Jackson Mon, 03 Aug 2009 16:49:08 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=63047#comment-365849 <i>It was only a matter of time in Britain where Jewish schools, out of all the religious schools, would face a disruption of this sort.</i> Who caused the disruption? A Jew trying to get his child in there. The judges are simply applying the law. If a Muslim school rejected someone on grounds of ethnic origin - and the parents took the school to court - the verdict would be the same. It was only a matter of time in Britain where Jewish schools, out of all the religious schools, would face a disruption of this sort.

Who caused the disruption? A Jew trying to get his child in there. The judges are simply applying the law.

If a Muslim school rejected someone on grounds of ethnic origin – and the parents took the school to court – the verdict would be the same.

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