Agents of Incompetence: ATF Seizes ‘Toys,’ Then Touts Their Danger (Part II)
It is quite a stretch for U.S. Customs inspectors at the Port of Tacoma to declare that they recently intercepted machine guns, especially when the devices they confiscated were two models of a well-known brand of high-end Airsoft toys. To make such a claim, Customs relied upon a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) determination that these toys could have parts replaced or modified to turn it into a weapon capable of firing real bullets in automatic mode.
For such a claim to be true, the modified toy would have to:
- accept M4/M16-type military magazines
- strip a cartridge from the magazine and push it up the feed ramp into the toy’s chamber
- have a functional fire control group action, barrel, and gas system to cycle the weapon
- withstand (structurally) the high heat and pressures of a firearm cycling at hundreds of rounds per minute
Both Airsoft Outlet Northwest (the retailer/importer the Airsoft guns were seized from) and AirSplat (the nation’s largest Airsoft retailer) stock and have experience with the various configurations of the WE Tech Airsoft gas blowback systems, and both claim to have had experts attempt see how these toys could possibly be converted into functioning firearms. Airsoft Outlet Northwest took a previously delivered (without incident) WE Tech to a gunsmith that specializes in the AR platform. The gunsmith determined the following:
- The WE TTI M4s lack any sort of functional gas tube which is integral to an AR15′s operation
- The upper receiver of an AR15 fits onto the lower of the WE TTI M4
- The stock trigger pack in the WE TTI cannot strike the firing pin of a AR15 bolt
- The body of the WE TTI lower is several mils thinner than an AR15 lower, and shims would be needed for any AR trigger pack to work
- The trigger pack of an AR15 appears to be able to fit onto the lower receiver of a WE TTI M4, one of the AR15 trigger pack retaining pins is impossible to insert without major modification, and the hammer isn’t operable with the WE TTI lower.
In short, the gunsmith determined that the entire upper receiver would have to be replaced by an upper from a real M4/M6 type rifle to have a hope of functioning, and a trigger pack from a real M4 would have to undergo extensive modification to even fit. And even when modified to fit, it wouldn’t fire. If this gunsmith is correct, then all the effort to take a $400 toy and $600-plus of real gun parts — plus significant labor from a proficient gunsmith — would result in a thousand-dollar club less functional than the original toy, unable to fire real bullets or Airsoft pellets.
AirSplat, which has had samples of the exact same firearms in the past and which carries WE Tech products, had a slightly different experience in their attempts to see if these toys could be converted into weapons. They also had a tester who seemed supremely qualified to be in a position of being able to tell a toy gun from a fake one. Jon Dibblee was an Army infantryman for six years before being honorably discharged as a sergeant last year. He currently works for AirSplat, and he conducted tests with other employees on several models of gas blowback M4 replicas, trying to see if they would work with real M4 parts.
In the models they reviewed, Jon and his team determined the same fundamental conversion problem that dogged every attempt to turn an Airsoft gun into a real one, and that was the quality of the materials used in Airsoft construction. While quite acceptable for use in compressed-gas powered toys, the metals and plastic used in Airsoft would melt under the temperatures generated by real firearms, if they didn’t blow apart from the high pressures first. The all-important component (from a legal perspective) that determines whether or not a product is a gun or a toy is the lower receiver, which all Airsoft distributors contacted have confirmed are made of inexpensive pot metals that can not withstand the heat or pressures generated by authentic firearms.
Are similar products made by union labor in the US? Maybe we have a Toyota-like situation.
The above article contains some troubling discrepancies.
> The WE TTI M4s lack any sort of functional gas tube which is integral to an AR15’s operation
This is irrelevant if it will take an AR15 upper.
> The upper receiver of an AR15 fits onto the lower of the WE TTI M4
but
> the various Airsoft toys (including WE Tech) tested by AirSplat could not mate a real AR upper receiver to a toy lower, due to the placement of the two pins that hold the upper and lower units together.
Which is it?
> While quite acceptable for use in compressed-gas powered toys, the metals and plastic used in Airsoft would melt under the temperatures generated by real firearms, if they didn’t blow apart from the high pressures first.
Not if only the lower receiver is involved. It doesn’t experience the pressure of firing; the upper holds the barrel and bolt group. The lower just holds the firing mechanism and buffer group. It does not have to be reliable to be a gun.
> The trigger pack of an AR15 appears to be able to fit onto the lower receiver of a WE TTI M4, one of the AR15 trigger pack retaining pins is impossible to insert without major modification, and the hammer isn’t operable with the WE TTI lower.
This appears to be the operable statement, and the one that disqualifies the WE TTI cannot be made into a gun. That and the possibility that the AR15 upper cannot actually be fitted.
I suspect that BATFE has stepped on it and is now engaged in a bureaucratic arse covering operation. But better reporting is needed to hail the bastahds down.
This does not surprise me at all. It is funny, but last night I was explaining the ATF’s relationship to other agencies and how political they are. To justify their existence and further funding they are constantly pulling “stunts”. Two of their most famous stunts in the nineties were Ruby Ridge and Waco. I was a detective back then and we all discussed the issues surrounding the cases. At the outset we felt there was a rat in the soup when the feds tried to spin their actions into a positive light.
Some of the guys I worked with tasked over to ATF task forces or worked with them. On a one on one basis the agents are really not bad guys. But their operations made you go “what the ….?!” Back then, it was apparent that nobody like the FBI or DEA wanted to fold the ATF into their department. They just didn’t trust them.
Hi Dennis,
The two teams were looking at various models, and I should have done a better job noting that.
The AR gunsmith was looking at the WE Tech M4 CQBR, one of the two models taken in the 30-gun seizure. his responses we for that specific model only. The AirSplat team looked at other We Tech rifles and similar gas blowback clones. That may account for the discrepancy on whether or not the uppers could be mated successfully.
As for the trigger pack, it seems clear to me that if the pack’s retaining pins cannot be easily inserted without major modification, then we don’t have what the BATF can claim as a firearm. Likewise, the ‘smith said that the hammer would not work in that same sentence.
And then there is the problem of the WE-Tech lower not having a feed ramp, making it all but impossible for the toy to load ammunition from a magazine. Granted, the BATF could try to claim that they could presumably load it as a single-shot weapon, but calling it a machine gun is absurd.
Of course, without an operable trigger pack or hammer, calling it any sort of firearm defies credibility.
As our experts have determined, anyone with sufficient experience and tools to remanufacture a WE Tech lower into something that could be used as a weapon already has the capability to create weapons from scratch, or to modify real weapons into automatic weapons with far less work.
The Customs and BATF claim simply isn’t credible.
“These rifles could have had far-reaching and potentially devastating ramifications if they had gotten into the hands of individuals who wanted to do harm in the American population”, said Customs and Border Protection Area Port Director, Rolando Suliveras Jr. “This was a good interception by our officers.”
As Big Sis Napolitano would say…the system worked.
Ummm…I’m sorry, but are these guys supposed to be protecting the U.S.? Typical of CBP talent, I’d say. Maybe they can get jobs with the TSA. Seems about their level of competance.
If I told someone to go batf yourself would that be considered profanity on this blog?
The non-conspiracist in me says either Customs/BATFE stepped in it and are covering up or they are experiencing the pure incompetence that is the standard for government agencies.
When my tin-foil hat gets too tight, I start thinking about:
+ 1st paranoid theory: It isn’t about finding real facts, it is about doing **something** about things that sound scary, and making yourself look good. Most of the general public could read Bob Owens explanation and come away with glazed eyes…if Customs/BATFE says they stopped scary machine guns, then by gorsh that’s a good thing! This is what a steady diet of public education and Dancing with the Stars has inflicted on our society.
+ 2nd paranoid theory: the more you can demonize military rifles and “gateway” toys like airsoft, the more you can control the conversation. Chip away at public perception, make up ridiculous stories, frame people. Confiscate toys that can be converted to machine guns (honest, they can!) Throw in jail someone whose AR15 malfunctioned and doubles or triples on the range because of a worn sear, disconnector or weak springs. Soon, a threat is perceived by the public and it makes it all the easier to get funding for your agency and really start tearing into those whacko right wingers with their bibles and guns.
So if you replaced the upper receiver and the lower with real parts from an AR-15, you would have a functional rifle. By the same token, if you took a *painting* of an AR-15 and replaced the upper and lower with real parts from an AR-15, you would have a functional rifle.
By that logic, you could ban the importation of any photograph or painting of any functional firearm.
How fast do you think the ATF would drop this if the New York Times or 60 Minutes were doing a story on it, showing them in a bad light?
@Bob Owens:
Thanks for the clarification.
> As for the trigger pack, it seems clear to me that if the pack’s
> retaining pins cannot be easily inserted without major modification, then
> we don’t have what the BATF can claim as a firearm. Likewise, the ’smith
> said that the hammer would not work in that same sentence.
That seems to be the operative paragraph. The things cannot be guns.
Just a note for the non-gun-nuts, on an AR15 type rifle, the “lower receiver” is the gun. It’s the part with the trigger group and the serial number. The upper receiver with the barrel, and everything else, are just parts, and are not regulated.
@8. Georg Felis:
> So if you replaced the upper receiver and the lower with real parts from
> an AR-15, you would have a functional rifle.
Yes, but that is like saying, “If you took all the parts to a rifle and assembled tham, you’d have a real rifle.”
Ridiculous! I guess the ATF has to justify it’s salaries somehow though, and seizing toys is as good a way as any.
J.
They better look at how someone can take a hammer and a nail, set the nail behind a bullet, hit the nail with the hammer, and it will go BOOOOOOOMMMMM!!!!
So therefore hammers and nails should be banned.
I can’t wait for these hysterical cretins to start seizing rolls of Menthos,and bottles of coke as “bombmaking materials”. A few years ago,these losers were bravely stomping pet cats to death, while raiding houses,to confiscate what later turned out to be legally-owned firearms.This agency should be abolished,except that their antics constantly reinforce the notion that government is evil.
Luckily the main stream media jumped right in and exposed this fiasco… Ah, no, business as usual.
1st paranoid theory
1st paranoid theory
3rd paranoid theory: some Customs agents’ kids are getting some cool airsoft guns for their birthdays.
Seriously, what is the process for handling confiscated items at customs? Is it s strictly controlled destruction process…. or a poorly supervised, rarely locked room?
I say we trust the ATF’s word on this…
…as soon as they produce a functional automatic rifle from the seized toys AND have the agents responsible for the seizure each test fire it using live ammo.
4th paranoid theory: Someone in the family that owns Airsoft Outlet Northwest made a donation to some Republican candidate or perhaps the RNC, or in some fashion ticked off someone high up in Democratic circles, and now it’s payback time. Obama is not above sending his hounds to harass common law-abiding Americans. It’s the Chicago style, after all.
There is always a motive for seemingly dumb actions bt goverment. Of course the idea that an Airsoft rifle is “readily” converted to a full auto firearm is delusional…on the surface. Have no doubt that ATF has one of these toys in a machine shop and is rebuilding it into a functional firearm. They will present this Frankenstein ,probably held together with super glue and duct tape, to the press as proof that it can be converted to a full auto. The real danger here is that once this precident has been established with a toy what do you think the status of your real AR-15 or M1A is?? That’s right! Any real ,leagally owned, semi auto firearm is now in the catagory of readily converted to full auto, subject to confiscation!! Don’t fall for the diversions…
Big Savings.
Let’s equip BATF only with airsoft guns which each agent can easily convert by himself!
They can sell their unused expensive stuff at gun shows.
@10 Dennis
“Yes, but that is like saying, “If you took all the parts to a rifle and assembled tham, you’d have a real rifle.”
Exactly my point. In order to make the toy gun into a real gun, you would have to replace *all* the parts.(except maybe the stock, and perhaps one or two screws). Seems the ATF is enforcing an import restriction on something that only *looks* like a real gun. And if so, why not outlaw the importation of photographs of guns. Or oil paintings. Or Transformers. (Well, using Megatron as an example may be a little bit of a strawman arguement, but with this bunch I’m not sure. After all, you could replace all his plastic parts with real Transformer parts….)
I was a detective back then and we all discussed the issues surrounding the cases. At the outset we felt there was a rat in the soup when the feds tried to spin their actions into a positive light.
Cool text. Waiting for you to continue the topic.
Bella Smith
independent escort warsaw
There has to more to the ongoing continuous drama that the ATF is subjecting the airsoft industry to on this issue.
I too say let the ATF present one of these ‘converted weapons’ to a public / open environment for inspection to prove that their claims have validity.