Agents of Incompetence: ATF Dodges FOIA, Still Has Seized BB Guns (Part IV)
It was only a month ago that a bizarre story broke in the Pacific Northwest, as Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officers trumpeted their seizure of what they claimed were more than two dozen machine guns disguised as toys.
The problem with the CBP claim was that the items seized were 16 WE TTI (WE Tech) M4A1 and 14 WE TTI (WE Tech) M4 CQBR gas blowback Airsoft rifles that shoot plastic BBs.
They really were toys.
But instead of admitting they can’t tell a toy gun from a real one, CBP turned these Airsoft rifles over to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), and the agency agreed that these pot-metal made, plastic BB-shooting plinkers were honest-to-God firearms.
To put it mildly, things got interesting.
An Airsoft expert from England dismissed the claim as absurd. In the U.S., AirSplat expert Jon Dibblee — who was once Sgt. Jon Dibblee, a U.S. Army infantryman — categorically denied that the WE Tech M4s could be made into machine guns, an expert opinion supported by a gunsmith specializing in the AR rifle who examined another WE Tech in great detail. The gunsmith determined:
- The WE TTI M4s lack any sort of functional gas tube, which is integral to an AR15’s operation.
- The upper receiver of an AR15 fits onto the lower of the WE TTI M4.
- The stock trigger pack in the WE TTI cannot strike the firing pin of a AR15 bolt.
- The body of the WE TTI lower is several mils thinner than an AR15 lower, and shims would be needed for any AR trigger pack to work.
- The trigger pack of an AR15 appears to be able to fit onto the lower receiver of a WE TTI M4, one of the AR15 trigger pack retaining pins is impossible to insert without major modification, and the hammer isn’t operable with the WE TTI lower.
In short, multiple experts examined the dubious ATF claim and found that the WE Tech rifles confiscated by the CBP and slated for destruction by the ATF cannot be converted to machine guns, or any other kind of working firearm.
Customs has refused to answer questions addressed to them about the seizure, referring all claims to the ATF. As a result, PJ Media filed a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request with the ATF, asking in part for:
Documentation relating to the determination. … [C]opies of written documentation and video or photographic evidence showing how ATF technicians were able to convert the lower to fire real ammunition, and information of what occurred when the converted weapon was fired. … [C]opies of email and print communications within the ATF regarding this issue, and copies of email and print communications between ATF and CBP related to this issue.
The ATF’s written response to the FOIA request was less than helpful. Instead of providing information about the WE Tech rifles seized from Airsoft Outlet Northwest at the Port of Tacoma, Washington, ATF responded with what appeared to be a clumsy bait-and-switch:
We would like to bring to your attention our oversight on the subject of your request in our letter dated April 13, 2010; Springfield, Inc instead of record pertaining to Airsoft rifles intercepted by Customs and Border Protection; as maintained by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF).
Perhaps an expert in FOIA law can explain this interesting redirection to those of us less versed in the finer points of the legalities, but it would seem quite bizarre that an agency subject to FOIA requests has the authority to randomly determine that the requester really wanted something entirely different … and entirely useless. Airsoft Outlet Northwest’s Ben Martin confirmed receiving apparently identical information in response to their FOIA request as well.
Instead of providing reasonable, simple answers to reasonable, simple questions (along the lines of “how did the ATF come to the determination that these Airsoft rifles were machine guns?”), the agency passed along a series of heavily redacted documents about:
- Sigma Airsoft silencers (not WE Tech Airsoft rifles)
- seized in Phoenix, AZ (not Tacoma, WA)
- in 2004 (not 2009-10)
I’m sure that the three more or less complete documents they provided about Airsoft pistol silencers seized in 2004 by the Phoenix Field Division are of interest to someone. But they do not help us in the least when it comes to understanding the ATF’s determination that the WE Tech Airsoft rifles still being sold openly around the country are easily converted into fully automatic machine guns, and at a fraction of the cost the U.S. military pays for the real thing.
PJ Media has been in contact with Averill P. Graham, chief of the ATF’s Disclosure Division. We have communicated that the FOIA information they provided “about an entirely unrelated incident in the desert Southwest” did not answer the questions about Airsoft Outlet NW’s WE Tech rifles, or about any of the other Airsoft toys and accessories purchased by the company being held hostage by the government.
Chief Graham has asked us to return the documentation they sent, and promises to pull their file on our original request and “see what happened.” Perhaps this additional attempt will bear more fruit … but I wouldn’t suggest holding your breath.
Hope is not lost for Airsoft Outlet Northwest, however. The government recently released some of the $20,000 in inventory they’d seized, including 15 other Airsoft machine guns made by WE Tech and 20 bolt-action Airsoft guns. Perhaps with some patience — and a bit of tenacity — the ATF and Customs can finally be convinced to return these toys to their rightful owners.
Getting them to admit they were laughably wrong may be an entirely different matter.
Chief Graham needs to loose his cushy government paycheck. As does everyone else working at the agency.
It is an evil empire all to itself and should be exposed to the sunlight and have a stake driven through it’s shrieking heart.
This would be really funny except for one thing, it is a perfect example of how Govt. Agencies work or more properly do not work. First they identify toys as dangerous and sieze them. Then they are either too embarressed to admit their mistake, or they cannot properly identify the requested information and instead substitue what they think you want. It might even be a combination of the two. It does not matter because it shows exactly why any Govt. Agency needs a clear and narrowly defined set of responsibilities. They also need to have their agencies trimmed from time to time as a matter of routine because all agencies grow beyond their ability to manage or control.
Always Think Forfeiture
The current regime will continue to obfuscate and hyperbolize incidents such as this to “prove” to the general public that guns are evil.
The left has a long-standing tactic of vilifying inanimate objects (guns, SUVs, talk radio, etc.) and when the propaganda takes effect, the left calls for more regulation and stronger laws. It’s all part of the “fundamental transformation” of the USA by the Obama regime.
Left to its own devices, you will not recognize this country in 2012. The yardstick to measure the right’s efforts to counter this regime’s machinations is how loud the left screams.
“Chief Graham has asked us to return the documentation they sent, and promises to pull their file on our original request and “see what happened.””
Well here’s a DOH moment – like Graham actually thought something went wrong with a FOIA? Nothing went wrong with that FOIA – the mis-direction is on purpose and these bozos know exactly what they are doing – stonewalling as long as possible.
In a similar vein many of you may not have heard of the totally unwarranted police action in the peace loving ‘Progressive’ State of Oregon last month. Wasn’t it the libs that were talking about Bush and his ilk that would preemptively arrest and prosecute for little or no reason?
You can read about it here:
http://oregonfirearms.org/alertspage/Outrage.html
All I can say is good luck. This is the same agency that has a habit of losing it’s own weapons and laptops more than any other law enforcement agency and their recorded inventory of explosives was deemed ‘deficient’ compared to what they actually had. They didn’t even know what information was on most the missing laptops.
ATF: We regret to inform you that we are unable to comply with your FOIA request. The information you requested was lost when the laptop containing the data was left by an agent on top of his car when he drove off.
More silly government. If this story gains traction, these clowns are going to wish they had been caught in their offices surfing porn.
Constitution? Sense? Due process? These are leftists and their bureuacratic helpers who have benefits and job security instead of souls, forget it!
Thanks for reporting what the media will not touch. Don’t expect anyone to lose their jobs over this lack of brilliance. We know after the 9-11 commission started that everyone that provided airport security that morning and those that prevented the domestic and international intel folks from sharing information were grandfathered in. Come to think of it, my grandfather has lost his marbles and I know he could do a better job.
How about not buying guns from “registered” dealers? Avoid the paperwork and the government won’t know how many or what kind of firearms you own. As far as I’m concerned, it’s none of the government’s damn business what kinds of firearms I own or how many. The Second Amendment IS my gun permit!!
I agree with all that has been said about the idiots at ATF and the government agencies that work with them. However, I don’t under stand why anyone in today’s environment with trigger happy cops in every town and on street corner would want a perfect look-a-like M4 that is a toy. Especially since part of it is from a real M4. Essentially this is like the .22 cal insert used on auto pistols for cheaper target practice. Although they use real bullets instead of BB’s. To someone walking onto a scene where several of these people using this modified BB gun are aiming at others, it would be easy to think it was a real battle. I have a locker full of long and short guns and a CCL but I don’t think this BB gun mod to a real M4 is a great idea.
Inspectorudy,
First of all, I’m pretty sure none of the WE M4A1 contains any parts from a real M4. Secondly, even though you may not perceive any meaningful use of airsoft replicas, there are plenty of people who do, and would appreciate you not trampling their freedom to do as they wish.
If you do a search on the history of airsoft, you can see that it is an outdoor activity that is active all over the world, with practical applications in inexpensive tactical training and war game simulations. With the way these simulations are properly set up, there is very little chance of someone just “walking onto a scene” where such activities are taking place.
Unfortunately, poor parenting skills do not preclude the incidents of young children taking these replicas out onto the streets. But frankly I blame this on the parents for not teaching their children how to treat firearms with care and respect, and not the fact that such replicas exist.
First, I did not and have not “Trampled” on any one’s freedom. Second, it clearly states that an AR15 upper will fit on a airsoft lower. Why I haven’t a clue. Third, I am a responsible gun carrying citizen and I don’t appreciate hot heads saying they have a right to brandish guns anytime and any place because of the second amendment. If you look at the history of our nation after the constitution was adopted, after the 2nd adm., you will find many reasonable restrictions on firearms. If you are dumb enough to want to play with a toy that looks exactly like the real thing and accept the consequences that go with that attitude then be my guest. I recently had a neighbor crawl through my back yard with what looked like an AR15 in his hands while wearing some kind of mask. I told my wife to get her cell phone and I went and got my XD9 and quietly went to the back door expecting him to be standing there. When I got real close and could see him from the side I realized it was my neighbor. He was “Playing” guns with his son and his little friends and they were all armed with exact replicas of real guns. What a neat game! Are you so immature that you can’t play with a red or blue bad copy of a real gun? Why do they have to look real? Does that make the game go better? When you see the old paint ball guns they didn’t look like anything real but they are a lot of fun. It seems to me that you are mixing up a real constitutional right to defend and protect yourself with the right to be foolish.
Rudy,
I’m an airsoft game operator in CA, and I think you’re over reacting. MilSim sports like ours are founded in realism and airsoft guns are marketed to a large extent with that in mind. And I want to re iterate that people just don’t “walk onto a scene”. Most organized games are in clearly marked, designated areas. We routinely have over 200 people at our games at Fort Ord. We operate with the blessing of the local municipalities and carry substantial insurance policies. Unorganized or private games usually take place on private property away from other poeple. Your neighbor had obviously made a mistake taking an airsoft gun on the streets, and in most cities they fall under the bb gun discharge prohibition in unspecified areas. Incidents like that put our game in a bad light.
Now, the WE M4 lower will accept a real steel upper; but the hammer will not engage the BCG. The dimensions of the lower are all wrong for any conversion. Not to mention these guns are all made in rural communist china out of the cheapest pot metal you might imagine. Their is no way it could hold up to the pressures of the .223…
I have to agree. While I would never want it to be illegal to own or use an airsoft gun, I do feel that it shows a lack of judgment to traipse around the neighborhood with something that’s indistinguishable from a military rifle. While we have the right to keep and bear arms, I also believe that every gun owner has the implicit responsibility to use those arms safely and correctly. This includes not giving other citizens undo cause for alarm. It also includes teaching your children the proper handling of firearms.
Brought to you by the same great government agency that brought you Waco, complete with bulldozed crimescenes afterwards.
“I don’t under stand why anyone in today’s environment with trigger happy cops in every town and on street corner would want a perfect look-a-like M4 that is a toy.”
Yeah, the toy part is a problem. Personally, I’d like a real M4. And the cops would have to just get used to citizens carrying them “in every town and on street corner.” You see the 2nd Amendment has this part about “bearing” arms – or did you forget that? “At the time of the founding, as now, to “bear” meant to “carry.” Heller v. DC. Police in many states are already used to citizens actively carrying arms with them as they go about their day to day business (concealed or otherwise). The police in the rest of the country can just get over themselves. Or get another job. You see our employees seem to have gotten the notion that they have more rights than we their employers have, and that notion needs to be rejected emphatically.
Alcohol, tobacco and firearms, should be the name of a convenience store not a government agency. I hope Henry Bowman doesn’t hear about this.
Thorne Meadows says; “I hope Henry Bowman doesn’t hear about this.”
Great book wasn’t it? I’ve read it three times.
Could the barrel of the toy weapon withstand the pressure of a real round being fired in it?
Your question has been addressed several other places. But “Not only NO, but #### NO !”.
It’s really not relevant because there is also the problem of the action, ammo feeding mechanisms, and the chamber.
@Thorne,
From your lips to glhods ear. I pray every day that we never need to feed the hogs.
But if need trumps prayer then….
Waco vs Romanian Rules Baby!
!!Molon Labe!!!
Well, Rep Dingle told us the BATF were “jack-booted thugs”. Perhaps he needs to update that with “stupid jack-booted thugs.”
Reading this article just makes me so excited that these same bureaucrats will be running our healthcare system. Oh Glory Days, they will take care of us all.
Why would the BATFE be running our health care system? I didn’t see that anywhere in the 2000 plus pages I read.
Actually, I had a somewhat similar experience with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco Firearms and Explosives. Since I don’t trust the Obamunist Administration, and believe they’re trying to do away with the first ten amendments as well as the balance of the constitution, I purchased two, thirty caliber light machine guns at a gun show. As I was loading them into my olive drab Hummer, three ATF agents approached me, and asked to see the guns, telling me machine guns were illegal. Keeping my cool, I explained that these simply were toys, made by Mattel that only shot caps, not bullets. After removing them from their containers and examining the weapons, luckily the officers agreed that they looked like toys, and let me go. Whew, that was a close one.
No Person of Choler, it could not. I don’t even think it’s made of metal. It’s plastic.
The next step is not to ask the same folk what happened, but to submit the facts and sequence of events to that agency’s Office of Inspector General (OIG), with copies to the Members of Congress who represent the area where the company pays taxes and/or employs people. Additionally, find out which Members are on the Oversight Committees and send them similar inquiries, with copies of the material. In all cases, ask that they make inquiries of the federal agency, including that the OIG send them copies of their findings and response.
All government’s favorite things to do, are to CONTROL us and KILL us.
The more Sexular the government, the bigger the pile of dead bodies.
Bode Miller, the Olympic skier from, NH had a young cousin from Russia living with or near him, a couple of years ago.
A Franconia policeman, got it real bad for young Liko Kenny, and set out to murder him. This video of the Cat N. Mouse chase, where the Stasi Cop toys with Kenny, knocks him off the road and hoses him down with pepper spray, but gets shot dead, in the process, should make your blood CHILL, THEN BOIL!
Stasi Cop is buried with High Honors, a FALLEN HERO, (EFFING BULLY!)
As it turns out, a passer by, grabbed the Heroe’s gun and shot Liko Kenny, to death…This man is in jail, now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF-BtESLEsU&feature=player_embedded
I’ve watched this, exactly ONCE! I feel like a person who has just landed on a Penal Colony Planet, in a B, Sci Fi movie.
If it doesn’t OUTRAGE YOU, you are a BODY SNATCHER!
I’m sorry…Stasi Cop, had beat Kenny up in the Franconia Police Station, not long before this atrocity.
SC was chasing Liko Kenny, for a LICENSE PLATE VIOLATION…Missing screw, or some such thing.
“The current regime,” my ass. Executive-branch agencies under both Republican and Democratic administrations have a long history of stalling on, dragging out, ignoring and otherwise failing to fulfill requests as the Freedom of Information Act requires. With a few notable exceptions (in my experience, the FAA stands out), no agency and no official of either party really wants to fill these requests.
A request I filed for declassified FBI files on the 1979 Klan-Nazi shootings in Greensboro, NC, took more than four years to be filled, and what we got, although voluminous, was so heavily redacted as to be practically useless, even though 20 years had passed since the events in question.
A request I filed in 1991 with the Health Care Financing Administration for Medicare/Medicaid payment data technically remains still open, although I last inquired about it more than five years ago and have since left the news bidness.
Moreover, it is a matter of documented fact that under Bush 43, the Justice Department instructed agencies to change from the “presumption of disclosure” that had been policy under Janet Reno, Bill Clinton’s AG, to a presumption that Justice would defend any agency decision to withhold. The fact that this order was issued barely a month after 9/11 only mildly mitigates its antidemocratic nature. In March 2009, AG Eric Holder reinstated the Reno standard, but having had no occasion to submit a FOIA request since, I have no idea how much of a difference it has made.
Suggestion for would-be journalists of any political stripe or none at all: If you must pursue information from executive-branch agencies, try anything — hell, try buying the receptionist an ice-cream cone — before submitting a FOIA request. FOIA should be a last resort.
Has anyone checked into the possibility of related party transactions and political corruption? The person or persons most likely to benefit from this obvious abuse of power would be a competitor that wants the Northwest distributorship to go under.
No, the people in that office are well known in the gun community as a pack of jerks.
In fairness to Bush 43, he did go back and “clarify” the 2001 Ashcroft order.
With Apologies to Ayn Rand: WHERE IS HENRY BOWMAN?
With apologies to Henry Bowman… where’s Francis Marion, Patrick Menry, John Adams, George Washington, John Parker and his pals the Munroes, Parkers, Lockes, Tidds, Reeds, John Brown, Samuel Hadley, Caleb Harrington, Jonathon Harrington, Robert Munroe, Isaac Muzzey, Asahel Porter, Jonas Parker, and Jonathon Harrington?
Let’s drink a Sam Adams at Buckman Tavern (or your local equivalent) and watch the tyrannt’s men as they blunder forward out into the countryside.
(How did the Moby’s get through moderation? Or, are these people know for their satire?)
Whenever you deal with the ATF, you have to be aware what office you are dealing with. Some are really upright, other’s… Well, they are the ones people have in mind when they talk about “jackbooted thugs”.
Someone call Len Savage @ Historic Arms in Franklin, GA………He scares the dog turds out of BATFE…
Just more proof the BATFE needs to be completely eliminated. It’s an unnecessary and incompetent agency whose sole job is to infringe on our civil rights.
F Troop strikes again. What a bunch of stupid tax collectors.
Little insight about ATF. The last 5 Directors have all been “acting” Directors. Read: since Waco no US President has had enough confidence in the agency to make the position permanent. Very recently, DOJ had to literally intervene between ATF and FBI over who has “jurisdiction” over illegal bomb issues. ATF agents have drawn weapoins and threatend to arrest FBI agents. I kid you not. ATF was fairly diminished in any real homeland security capacity, but did win the explosives battle with FBI. BATFE has more EEOC suits filed (per capita) than any other government agency.
There newest “mandate” has all wording about homeland security removed, but they have picked up arsons and “violent criminal groups”. This means that our nations 1 million gang bangers are now theoretically the problem of ATF.
Most regualr Cops I’ve come in contact with are very pro gun. ATF is so anti-gun it is scary. recent law: if you pawn your handgun, you have to qualify all over again to buy back your OWN weapon.
I dont mean stat qualifications but the federal background check most people have to clear to CCW.
One more thing: Fireworks. You have got to be shitting me…………
Let’s be fair to these statist buffoons;they ARE getting better.True,they still have those dreaded BB guns,but as of today,they have not burned any children alive,as they did in WACO,or stomped any kittens to death.