Holder Loses Gamble on Terror Trial
Practical commenters had noted from the outset of the war on terror that military tribunals for unlawful combatants in our custody made more sense than trying them in civilian courts under normal evidentiary rules. To take the most obvious example, we have what we call the Miranda rule, which requires that police interrogation of a suspect cease when he requests counsel. If the police do not follow that rule, the evidence they obtain from the suspect is not permitted to be introduced into evidence against him. This is not because statements made outside the presence of counsel are necessarily less trustworthy as evidence.
Similarly, we have what’s called “the fruits of the poisonous tree” rule, which means that if the prosecution found evidence only as a consequence of having obtained an inadmissible confession, that evidence as well as the confession are excluded. Again, this means that perfectly relevant and credible evidence must be excluded. These exclusions are justified as the only means by which to enforce the prohibited police conduct, not because the evidence itself is untrustworthy or unreliable.
Because military tribunals involve matters of combat and not criminal enforcement, of necessity they deal with more exigent matters than normal criminal cases. Battlefield interrogators rarely have the time and security advantages of civilian interrogators, for example. It is therefore unsurprising that in the absence of more egregious conduct that bars the use of evidence in civilian criminal courts, like physical torture (the kind of conduct which is really likely to go to the reliability of the evidence itself), many kinds of evidence barred in civilian trials would be permitted, without in any way undermining the tribunal’s obligation to provide a fair adjudication of the matter.
To be sure, there are other considerations which make military tribunals more appealing venues for trials of enemy combatants. For example, they can be held in locations and in such a way as to provide greater security for the judges and jurors. And they are more adept in the handling of classified information which one reasonably anticipates will be needed in cases involving al-Qaeda warriors.
But the relative inflexibility of the evidentiary rules in civilian courts was the most compelling reason for trying the detainees by military tribunals.
Attorney General Eric Holder ignored these sensible warnings and proceeded to a civilian trial only to be given a hard lesson about the law: you cannot count on judges to ignore the law to cover for the president’s moral preening and outreach to his far left base.
The denouement came in a case involving Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani. He is a suspect in the bombing of U.S. embassies in Africa which killed 224 people. He was picked up and in the course of an interrogation overseas by the CIA had given the interrogators the name of a man whom the government now had intended to call as its star witness in the case against Ghailani.
We told you so. Jackasses.
Now let us hear the left whine about how these guys will be held interminably, because the war with Al Qaeda will never end. (crickets)
“The enemy of my enemy is my friend”. ‘The (white) Man’ is the enemy of O’bwana and his bros and Mohammeddans are their friends for the moment. As a large and growing number of corporations and individuals are finding out, O’bwana knows well how to attack his enemies. Mohammedan terrs simply are not his enemies. If you ignore what they say and watch what they do, Leftists are easy to understand. We should learn from the Leftists. In any war, the first goal must be to destroy your internal opposition (secure the rear and flanks) — then take the fight to the external foes. Bush, in so many ways so blind, neglected to take on America’s internal enemies before facing (in a half-assed way at that) the foreign attackers. Govt officers do take an oath to protect the Constitution from all enemies, “foreign and domestic” yet too many goofus Americans appear to believe that being a domestic foe is protected by the Constitution. BTW, both the exclusionary rule and the fruit of the poisonous tree are Leftie Court inventions, and not required by any Constitutional provision. If we’d elected a President somewhere along the line with the cojones of Andrew Jackson, we wouldn’t be prosecuting criminals with both hands ties behind our backs. Refusing to recognize any court decisions made after 1930 would be the most reasonable practice for the Executive Branch. Good thing the Founders didn’t have this attitude or we’d still be petitioning our Queen in England for redress.
this administration won’t even admit we are at war!!!!! our troops are being killed and their commander in chief is to busy giving comfort to the enemy to notice
I don’t know which is the bigger fool, Eric Holder or his boss, Mr. Obama. We have a perfectly good courtroom in Guantanamo Bay all set for military tribunals and we were all ready to use these tribunals for a bunch of terrorists who have already confessed to their crimes and actually WANT to die for Allah. NONE of these people are American citizens and all of these men were arrested overseas, NOT here in the United States. I really don’t understand what this fetish is that Eric Holder has for civilian courts when these animals could get just as good a trial in a military tribunal. Even a military tribunal is more than they would EVER give to any American. And remember, we are talking about the same people who planned the killing of almost 3,000 Americans on 9/11 as well as being guilty of numerous other terrorist crimes against the United States.
Give them a trial and then hang them. It’s the only message al Qaeda will understand.
…. Give them a trial and, if they’re convicted, then hang them. It’s the only message al Qaeda will understand ….
Better idea. Feral gummint builds prison piggery at or near Guantanamo. Those Islamanazis who are convicted of war crimes are sentenced to life at hard labor – hog farming.
That is a GREAAAT response, but I would like to add that all they eat for all meals includes some form of pork! Sausage, bacon, pork rinds, hog jowl and more…hey they might begin to like it!
Both Obama and Holder as well as (Janet Reno (number two)) or Janet Napolitano should be impeached when the new congress convenes in January then Biden for supporting Obama and lying and also the misdemeanor of being stupid as hell should be impeached and the new speaker of the house will be president and undo all of Obama’s nightmarish policies!
I am taking the day after this upcoming election to either party like it’s 1999 or puke all day long, but I believe that party is gonna be the order of the day!
“I suspect … Holder and his colleagues … were so persuaded by their own political posturing and their sense of the rightness of their cause that to this day they remain blinded to reality.”
This is not just a definition for florid incompetence, it is a definition of extreme radicalism. The Obama administration is off the charts in every way in both categories. And yet they are still touted by their media lackies as “intellectuals” and Obama is touted as extremely bipright, even by many on the right. To me he looks like the sad and presictable result of decades of racist preference quotas (affirmative action) which elevated millions of minorities far beyond their capabilities, and imbued them with a poisonous sense of pious righteousness.
These decomposing corpses don’t even know how badly their rot and corruption smells. They don’t seem to posess even a scintilla of capacity for self reflection. Which in addition to incompetence and extreme radicalism, may indicate that they are sociopathic on some level as well.
Why would ANYONE think this is not EXACTLY what The One and his toadies were looking for? The Muslim in Chief has no interest in penalizing his Brothers in Islam for doing their Islamic duty to destroy the Infidels. And after all, they are People of Color, and therefor Preferred Species. If you were truly out to destroy the United States, what more could you want?
I have never been so disgusted in my life as the day that the current occupant of the WHITE HOUSE was elected. I hope the “White guilt” is over.
I told co-workers over and over before most of us got layed off including myself that they would soon be unemployed!
I am working now and hope to stay that way but am not looking for a raise anytime soon, so IMPEACH Obama and Holder and Napolitano and Biden as soon as possible!
Problem seems to be that Obama and Holder are lousy lawyers.
Lousy lawyers…a redundancy. Traitors is a better term.
For valid reasons too numerous to list here, Eric Holder is, suffice to say, a putz.
That’s what happens when you ignore the laws for the sake of politics – or perhaps, as one friend of mine suggested at the beginning, for the sake of religion. Under the law of war, people who fight without uniforms or any identifying insignia are not entitled to any of the protections of the Geneva Conventions. None. They may lawfully be shot out of hand, without any trial or other proceedings. Consider that they are captured on a battlefield, weapons in hand, fighting against our military forces. There are no genuine issues of fact to be resolved, for if they were not “unlawful combatants” they wouldn’t be in custody. But, the U.S. no longer follows such harsh rules and they were to be provided with military tribunals to determine their offenses and punishments. The civilian judge could not have ruled any other way as the case law is clear in evidentiary matters such as the “fruit of the poisonous tree” doctrine. Now they will be tried – if they are tried – by military tribunals. They ought not to be imprisoned without trial indefinitely as that is not only inconsistent with our notions of fairness but also has the potential to distort our civilian judicial system, when those who are accustomed to indefinite detentions without trial come to hold positions of wider authority within it.
That is correct, and NO Pundit ever remembers it.
(And it should be remembered even when talking about Israel, that fights against a whole pack of [what are technically] war criminals who do not wear any uniform.)
Does anyone really believe that Holder as Attorney General has any real interest in getting convictions when he has spent the last decade trying to defend and get these terrorists off? What kind of fools are we, when in the face of this pathetic AG, that we think justice will prevail against these terrorists?
Holder and most of his department are hard left scum bags, just like the president. They believe in “no terrorist left behind” and of course criminal trails will show the big bad evil American government against these freedom fighters. Not to mention enriching friendly lawyers in nyc which is the other sacred creed of these losers which is “no lawyer left behind.”
It will only get worse until these people are driven out of the AG office and investigated for treason.
I sure hope they remember to give Miranda rights to the individuals in the obaMadministration. Sure don’t want to have cases or evidence thrown out because of procedural screwups. Looking forward to lots of perp walks and trials for treason.
Is it remotely possible that this is the intended outcome, all along?
DUH!
This is bugging me, and I otherwise agree with the article…
“It is therefore unsurprising that in the absence of more egregious conduct that bars the use of evidence in civilian criminal courts, like physical torture (the kind of conduct which is really likely to go to the reliability of the evidence itself), many kinds of evidence barred in civilian trials would be permitted, without in any way undermining the tribunal’s obligation to provide a fair adjudication of the matter.”
I don’t think this sentence is making sense. It seems that you probably mean that the “egregious conduct”, torture, that is restricted in civilian courts will not, in a combat/military setting (and because of combat/military setting), have negating effects in a military tribunal. But, in that case you would probably necessarily need to elaborate on such torture or techniques being used in the article, but that was not the case, so I can’t understand the meaning. We would have to know that the “egregious conduct” in a military setting, the techniques, are legit. I believe that they are, but that is besides the point. The point is that certain egregious conduct is not explained to be legit under different circumstances – That measures are taken to ensure false information is not given.
The actual sentence is saying that in the absence of torture, evidence that is barred in civilian court, would be permitted without undermining the military tribunals. That seems to be missing a premise (that egregious conduct is justified in some circumstances), or it just doesn’t make sense.
Or maybe, you are using “bars” as a noun (idea). But in that case, or other far out options, it seems you are trying to avoid outright saying that torture is necessary and useful in military tribunals. You see, it looks like you were avoiding it, because like I said above, you would have necessarily mentioned something about the techniques used. And if not that, the sentence would not lack a premise. And I ruled out that it was an accident for other reasons which I won’t even go into.
Tommy Gunn – you are exactly right. This decision is what they had hoped for: to neuter a “legal” way to hold or try these criminals. This was and is thier intention, as the Liberal Left is full of VERY compentent lawyers and jurists. They just don’t use thier competence to uphold the Law, they use the LAW to push thier own agenda, and not for any kind of justice.
From Webster:
jack·ass
noun \ˈjak-ˌas\
Definition of JACKASS
1
: donkey; especially : a male donkey
2
: a stupid person : fool
What makes anyone think they care about letting these folks off. It’s not a war with them. Islam is the religion of peace. America is the oppressor. Get a life. Just a formality to let the jihadist get back into circulation. They need civilian court trials to keep from being impeached.
Evidence obtained by torture will not be permitted in civil or military tribunals, not only because of a revulsion against such conduct, but because it is untrustworthy. Evidence obtained by means courts have decided are not permitted by law enforcement officers–like interrogating a witness without counsel when he has asked for an attorney– would be permitted in military tribunals because the circumstances are different and the evidence itself is trustworthy.
I hope this clarifies what I meant.
Eric Holder has, on national TV, several times confirmed that he doesn’t recognize a legal issue, either before or after it bites him in the a$$.
I used to think John Ashcroft was a poor-quality attorney general, but this guy is in a whole different class of incompetence, and his continuance in high public office reflects poorly on the judgment of the President of the United States.
I believe one of the reasons for the incompetent Holder and though impossible to fathom but more incompetent CiC Obama giving this POS terrorist every legal right of a U.S. citizen and trying said POS in a civilian court is to pat one’s self on the back in not using ‘Bush’s Guantanamo Bay’ for prosecution.
This tactic expectedly blew up in their faces. Odd, I thought Obama was supposed to be ‘brilliant’. And Holder, he did a ‘bangup job’ years back in the Clinton administration..! You think these ‘wunderkinds’ would’ve seen this situation play out beforehand. Color me ‘shocked’.
Eric Holder, having placed the burden of cowardice on the rest of us, needs to prove that he is not afraid of challenging common sense, and show how we would approve of his policy of trying to prosecute enemy combatants in civilian courts, if we had any balls. Hey buddy, how is that working for you? You’re not afraid of admitting you mistake, are you?
But the lesson is not on him, it’s on us: Next time around, let’s put some grown-ups in the executive branch, if we dare, that is…
Like many other readers, I think that there has been no “mistake” on the part of the present administration.
An administration of subversives WANTS to weaken America. The more problems for America, the better, in their opinion.
This administration has been put in the White House by the same forces that for seven years had tried their best to disrupt the war effort: the media controlled by the marxists, the organizations paid by the billions of SSoros.
It’s the CHIMERA, the alliance marxists – islamists – elitists, in action !
“So why did the Department of Justice take this big gamble? I suspect that Holder and those of his colleagues who were involved in the defense of the Guantanamo detainees were so persuaded by their own political posturing and their sense of the rightness of their cause that to this day they remain blinded to reality.”
Their ’cause’ smacked right up dead center against a cold hard fact – one Holder and company wish to ignore. It’s called LAW – backed up by the Constitution – something Holder and his jackass boss should start paying attention to because they could come up against another cold hard reality if they do not – a prison cell. (Well – I can hope can’t I?).
These morons seem to think they can just make this shtick up as they go along – dispensing with the rule of law (Constitution) when it doesn’t suit their cause. It may well be that Constitutional Law isn’t practiced – nor observed – in Chicago-land – but that isn’t the case in most of the rest of this country.
I cannot wait until January 2011 when the next Congress is sworn in and the criminal activities of this administration begin. Start with Holder and his minions whom cannot see that the New Black Panther Party did anything wrong. A slam-dunk case thrown out for ??? lack of interest?
when the next Congress is sworn in and the investigations into the criminal activities of this administration begin. (insert bold into my post above – thanks)
A bit brain-dead this morning!
Where is the President while this is happening? OOPS ! I forgot he’s on the campaign trail flying in “Air Force One” all over the country at great cost to taxpayers, even though they all are not Democrats. Your tax dollars at work for one party !I can’t imagine the cost of the trips, the Campaigner in Chief, has incurred. So much for thinking green, for him and the other climate change pushers! The only green we see, is our dollars flying into Air force One’s gas tanks. I can’t recall any other President spending so much time away from Washington. Remember to vote wisely in November 2010 and 2012 to stop this lack of attention to the needs of US citizens,LIKE JOBS and Illegal immigration. If the GOP wins and becomes the majority party , then get ready for the hand to hand combat that our community organizer Prez has promised. You can’t make this stuff up. On November 3,2010, Obama, the consummate campaigner will hit the trail once again to FIRE Up the crowds for his 2012 election.
I think/fear the Obama administration is getting exactly what they want by trying them in civilian courts and getting them to walk on technicalities.
Where is the President while this is happening? OOPS ! I forgot he’s on the campaign trail flying in “Air Force One” all over the country at great cost to taxpayers, even though they all are not Democrats. Your tax dollars at work for one party !I can’t imagine the cost of the trips, the Campaigner in Chief, has incurred. So much for thinking green, for him and the other climate change pushers! The only green we see, is our dollars flying into Air force One’s gas tanks. I can’t recall any other President spending so much time away from Washington. Remember to vote wisely in November 2010 and 2012 to stop this lack of attention to the needs of US citizens,LIKE JOBS and Illegal immigration. If the GOP wins and becomes the majority party , then get ready for the hand to hand combat that our community organizer President Obama has promised. You can’t make this stuff up. On November 3,2010, Obama, the consummate campaigner, will hit the trail once again to FIRE Up the crowds for his 2012 election.
One could easily get the impression that Eric Holder and Pres. Obama did not really want to convict an anti-American “freedom fighter”.
Looking back at just 50 years of attorney generals arouses the question “What if?” It seems there is diminishing family name entry in cabinet level positions since another AG pushing his own agenda met his fate. There were then as there are now “sleepers” among them that only get aroused when certain thresholds are crossed.
Janet Reno may have been totally without any personal agenda due to the overload from the Clinton “damage control” activity but the Secretary of Commerce and fund raiser under investigation paid the price in a well covered Bosnia crash. Maybe all the due process in “court delay defense” does the job as well now as assassination did back then.
An excess of air brushed lawyers spilling over into mass media exposure could be a clue. After all, the thought of death must remain unspoken at white house coffee breaks and “out of sight ” doesn’t necessarily mean “out of mind” when a bet is raised. The greatest understanding at that level is that once “you’re in the know” there’s only one event that will remove your name from the risk list.
In the mean time the entire Moslem world is laughing at us. Its no wonder they don’t respect us and aren’t afraid of us.
In the mean time 29 fuel trucks were blown up yesterday in Pakistan our friendly ally.
#2 “leciat” said, “giving comfort to the enemy”. That is a very good point…it’s true. Giving them (the enemy) guided tours of our nation’s security facilities may fall into that same category; along with myriad other “comforts” including – but not mimites to – glowing reports given them by the MSM.
My point is, that by NOT naming the “enemy”; all our leaders and the dutiful MSM can escape incarceration. Very cunning.
Even more cunning is that the AG and the POTUS can pass themselves off as lawyers! Heh! Heh!
Notice how quiet Russia, Iran et al have been recently…something’s cooking, and it smells bad. This trial is just another annoying distraction at a time when all our strength and all our wits are needed elsewhere.
This is not a mistake. This is not an error. Holder IS Obama and Obama is getting what he wanted. And what he wanted was “justice” for terrorist. America has been unfair to terrorist and over-reacted to 9/11. “We could absorb another 9/11.” Now, they are getting fairness in our courts.
The one thing I don’t understand about Obama is how he is pedal to the metal in pushing the drone attacks in Pakistan. This is not in character.
Trial them, jail the convinct and free the aquitted.
Then, the next time they kill US citizens try to not capture them.
Holder won his gamble. He wants the terrorists turned loose so he can claim Bush had innocent people imprisoned.