A Mosque in New York for a Christian Church in Mecca
The principal mosque in Rome has a surface area of 30,000 square meters and can hold thousands of believers. The Christian church of Mecca has a surface area of zero square meters and can hold zero believers. In fact, there is no Christian church in Mecca. In other words, Rome is an open city and Mecca is a closed city.
There has never been opposition by Muslims to the exclusive character of Mecca. Their main sanctuary is located there, and it is forbidden for non-believers to cross the city limits. No other sanctuary of any world religion is closed to members of different creeds. The Western Wall in Jerusalem, the Jews’ holiest site, can be visited by anyone — Muslims, Christians, or Buddhists. The Basilica of Saint Peter in the Vatican, the center of the Roman Catholic religion, is open to any person that wishes to visit its splendor. Hindu and Buddhist temples welcome anyone who walks in, but not the Muslims’ main mosque.
Muslims claim that their religion contains the final message of God and that all other religions express falsehoods, lies, and distortions — which means that adherents to other religions cannot be accepted as equal human beings with the same rights. Churches are banned in Saudi Arabia. In “modern” Turkey, it is, in reality, impossible to renovate an old Christian church, let alone create one. In a traditional Islamic country, adherents of different religions who refuse to accept Muhammad as their prophet have to live a life with restrictions and special rules. They are the so-called “dhimmis” — people who believe in a single God but who should be treated with special restrictions because of their refusal to follow the prophet Muhammad.
In the Western world, Muslims claim the same rights as other believers. Although it is perfectly normal to them that their holiest site is forbidden to non-believers, they demand that nations in which other religions dominate grant them space and opportunity to build their mosques. The idea that this could be reciprocal is virtually unknown in Muslim communities since Islam is the superior creed and, by Allah’s word, should reign over the earth and over all the other religions.
Reciprocity would be like a denial of Allah’s word.
It speaks for itself that Muslims will try to build a mosque close to one of America’s most sacred sites, the area of the World Trade Center. They expect non-believers to step back and bow to their demands. The whole world should be open to Muslims, while in the Islamic world different religions should be restricted and controlled.
In The Jews of Islam, Bernard Lewis writes:
The claim to tolerance, now much heard from Muslim apologists and more especially from apologists for Islam, is also new and of alien origin. It is only very recently that some defenders of Islam have begun to assert that their society in the past accorded equal status to non-Muslims. No such claim is made by spokesmen for resurgent Islam, and historically there is no doubt that they are right. Traditional Islamic societies neither accorded such equality nor pretended that they were so doing. Indeed, in the old order, this would have been regarded not as a merit but as a dereliction of duty. How could one accord the same treatment to those who follow the true faith and those who willfully reject it? This would be a theological as well as a logical absurdity.
You’re joking, right? There is NO reciprocity in Islam.
What’s mine is mine & what’s yours is mine as well.
There won’t be a church, synagogue, or Hindu temple in Mecca until Hell freezes over.
And if Americans don’t wake up soon, you won’t be building churches, synagogues, or any other house of worship except mosques in America either.
I don’t think this is a joke as much as it is a sort of political strategy. I’ve made the same suggestion myself but I mean it only as a way to prove that the Muslims are lying when they say they are about tolerance for non-Muslims. If we were to defy them to build a church, synagogue, Buddhist temple, etc. in Mecca to prove their tolerance as a condition for allowing the Ground Zero mosque, I feel certain that they would utterly refuse, proving the dishonesty of their claims of tolerance. If we were to INSIST that building a church/synagogue/etc. in Mecca was an absolute ironclad precondition for building the Ground Zero mosque – and stick to our guns on this – I expect the Ground Zero mosque would soon be relocated to some reasonable distance from Ground Zero.
There is, perhaps, a very remote chance that Muslim leaders would finally see the hypocrisy of claiming tolerance while forbidding non-Muslims from within the city limits of Mecca and end that policy. If they actually ended that policy, it MIGHT be appropriate to reward them by allowing construction of the Ground Zero mosque – or not. I don’t presume to speak for New Yorkers who must make this decision. They might be adamantly against the Ground Zero mosque even if churches were permitted in Mecca.
Henry Reardon.
I’ve made the same argument re: The Temple Mount in Jerusalem.
I proposed a Multi-faith prayer on the Temple Mount comprised of Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Shinto, etc. etc.
You said it exactly. It’s a way to spin the narrative. Something our side historically has done poorly. The point is not to actually have churches in Mecca. I hope that at least some people on this board can understand that you can have a tactic where you ask for one thing while you are really after something else.
There’s a smallish problem with a church in Mecca… Having worked out of Jeddah, Saudi Arabia for years… I can tell you… Christians are NOT allowed in Mecca… oops… There is a sort of toll booth arrangement on the road to Mecca… Only muslims can pass through…
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Ergo… You could build all the churches you want in Mecca… no one would attend … heh
I believe that was a concurrent, if unstated, point. To have a Christian Church in Mecca, you would have to allow Christians in to worship. You would have to open up Mecca to non-believers.
You know, I’d settle for a Church or Cathedral built and paid for by the Saudi Royal family. Maybe a few Greek Orthodox Cathedrals in Turkey too.
I wouldn’t advise anyone to hold his breath. A “religion” that openly seeks totalitarian domination of the world and the elimination of all competing faiths is unlikely even to concede Christians’ or Jews’ right to exist. Remember that the Saudis forbid the public practice of any faith other than Islam; even to display a crucifix openly on the street can get you arrested, gaoled, and tortured to death. That’s the only stance consistent with Islam itself. Consider the following incident at a supposed interfaith theology conference:
How’d you like that word “impartial,” eh?
Islam, the savage creed of an equally savage people, must be ejected from the West, most particularly the United States, against all protestations of its allegiants and mouthpieces. It must be quarantined, confined to the hellholes it already dominates, until it dies of its own backwardness. The alternative is the steady Islamization of the world. I doubt we’d like that much.
Islam is not a religion it’s a cult.Islam has no place in America.
that hit the nail on the head
what else would you expect from those islamofacist scumbags?
I am taking it for granted that you are talking about Obama???….
A church at Mecca…frankly I am surprised that someone has not bombed the hell out of the place. Even Medina would be a start.
islam’s reciprocity is that if we appease them, they won’t kill us.
so don’t say islam doesn’t show reciprocity.
I don’t direct any anger towards you for this article, but it really is the latter end of a pulverized horse corpse. The only people who deny Islam’s steadfast intolerance, arrogance, and condescension, are either sleazy or hopelessly naive. Anyone with sense knows what the Cordoba Mosque is, lipstick on a pig, and all that, it’s a victory dance. They would have built right on top of the 9-11 site if they could have, and they wouldn’t have lost a wink of sleep over it.
Leon De Winter is on to something. This is the right strategy. Focus on making Islamic countries open up to other religions. Attack them in their home turf instead of defending ours.
“A mosque in New York for a church in Mecca.”
When pigs fly. Don’t you get it? Islam is about subjugation, NOT tolerance. The radical Muslims WANT a mosque near Ground Zero to prove that Islam has, once again, triumphed over its enemies.
And for all you “moderate” Muslims out there, where is the outrage? Where is the “tolerance?” Where is the “outreach” to other religions to show that Islam really is a “Religion of Peace?” I’ve only seen one Muslim public speaker on the O’Reilly No Spin Zone actually condemning the mosque and saying it is a very bad and insulting idea. She was a very articulate speaker and good for her. Unfortunately, I think she’s the exception and not the norm. How can I say that? Well, where in New York City were there any protests from Muslims AGAINST the mosque? Where in New York City is there a big outcry from Muslims to show “tolerance” to their fellow New Yorkers and respect their sensibilities and feelings? Where is the outrage on the part of Muslims in New York that such an idea is even being considered?
For those sane moderate Muslims out there who really think this is a bad idea, I’m sorry for you because your voices are being drowned out by the more radical Muslims in your faith. Unfortunately, since we have an extremely weak president and an even worse mayor of New York City who refuse to do anything about this, the only action will have to come from moderate Muslims. Now is the time to prove how dedicated you are to this country. Now is the time to prove that you really do care about your neighbors and about their sensibilities. Now is the time to prove how tolerant you people really are.
Any takers?
“Radical Muslims want a mosque near Ground Zero”.
And so does our President.
I don’t think Obama wants a mosque there. I am positive he finds it in very poor taste. However, I do think his hands are tied on the matter and why should he voice his own religious ideals based on the issue. That is a private matter for all, including him. Additionally, if this mosque issue ever went to the Supreme Court they would have to uphold the Constitution, no matter who it hurt. That is their one and only job. We know the Muslims have no tolerance, we know they have no compromise, we know that the motive for building the mosque there is evil, but what can we do? Not much. It was a smart and sneeky move on their part. Using our laws against us this way, but the President really can’t do anything about it. The jurisdiction is Bloomberg’s and the State of New York. It is not a Federal issue. Be sure they will use our laws against us again and again in the future!
I believe that this post was a rather eloquent statement that the author does, in fact, get it. There won’t ever be a Church in Mecca, so there shouldn’t be a grand Mosque at Ground Zero. Or at least, that’s the gist I got out of the post.
As for the moderate Muslims. I’d imagine a lot of them are more concerned about honor killings, female mutilation , the possible imposition of sharia councils that operate outside the law in local, muslim dense neighborhoods (as has reportedly happened in the UK, and probably happens here in the US), ostracism, threats of violence and painful death for speaking out, that sort of thing. The blowup about the mosque is probably a bit below their survival radar. Kind of like being Catholic in the middle ages and speaking out against the Inquisition. Not a healthy move. Someone was always willing to point you out or turn you in, rationalize their fear and turn a blind eye.
I actually feel a little sorry for moderates, and those who might actually believe that Jihad is an inner struggle for grace, and not an external battle for the imposition of islamic law on the world. Our western media acts in the capacity of apologists and does nothing to help them, our (US) gov’t is attempting to make peace with some of the worst, most intolerant nations on earth, and western liberalism is full of moral/cultural relativism that might just be fine with sharia law in Muslim districts, even though many of those immigrants left their homelands to get away from such impositions (the thugs followed them, unfortunately).
As a culture, as a society, perhaps it’s time to take the beam out of our collective eye, before we point out the problems of others, so to speak.
Yes, it seems we have been living beneath the shadow of the sword of Islam all along and were blind to it. All this information about the history of Islam has been hidden preferring the darkness rather than the light so we could not see.
The light now shining on it is truly marvelous to witness, a new freedom so to speak. We don’t have to pretend anymore that this shadow has kept us from seeing it in the light, clear and stark, while those who want to hide this knowledge scurry frantically looking for the shadow of darkness to hide.
So the author advocates the emulation of Saudi policy? How medieval.
Yeah, how archaic that in the post modern era social reality is still defined and imposed at the point of sword–in the form of an AK47, bomb, nuke. How barbaric!
They are scared that people will convert to Jesus as they know mohammed is dead and his diaper is fitted to his head. If they do build a church in mecca they will shot Christians and kill their own who convert so where is the peace. Diaper heads only allowed in mecca and mohammed is buried there and true worship would disturb his bones. To bad he is dead as he was quite the ugly child abuser and we could have hung him.
Tolerance for Islam – an intolerant, imperialist, supremacist, totalitarian political system posing as a religion – is insane.
We should demand reciprocity or shut down every Mosque in America. That is what a sane, self-respecting country that wants to survive would do. Appeasers be damned, you will only invite disrespect through your pathetic weakness.
I like this response the best!
TRUE!!!!
Plus, we have become a nation of “let the other guy do it’ people. The simplicity of allowing the other guy to walk all over us is over..we are gonna have bruises and a few broken bones.
We need stronger leaders, starting now.
Ah another true believer in the doctrine of 180. If you can take a statement of conflict and then invert it by 180 degrees then it has merit.
As an example, advertising seems to feel that it is ok to have women strike men in their commericials. If you invert this scenario and have the men strike the women, then everyone would be up in arms, and rightly so. So then why is it ok to have women abusing men as a form of advertising. Similar, what happens as Muslim vs Christian, should rightly work as Christion vs Muslim.
I think my Grandma had it right when she stated, “What’s good for the Goose, is good for the Gander”.
yes this is what should be done
The holiest spot for Jews is the Temple Mount, not the Western Wall. Under Jewish law, parts of it (perhaps a quarter of the whole area) are off-limits to non-Jews, and, today, all Jews as well. (Even when the Temple stands, Jews may be forbidden for various reasons.) But that’s nothing compared to Mecca.
Today, the Mount is under Israeli sovereignty (even though they let the Waqf do what they want) and is completely open to anyone, although only Muslims are allowed to pray there and religious Jews are given extra screening.
“Tolerance” is when you agree with a Muslim.
“Bipartisanship” is when you agree with a leftist.
Neither group feels any obligation to reciprocate.
1 Terry
You’re joking, right? There is NO reciprocity in Islam.
That is the point of the argument.
Gringo, I understood the point of the article. I was agreeing with the author, I know he wasn’t advancing a serious proposal, just using it to make a point.
Yes, there is a mosque in Rome (constructed not without much contention). But Rome is a secular city, so a more exact analogue would call for the sovereign Vatican state to allow a mosque (let alone a synagogue or a Lutheran church). Does anyone think this likely? I don’t.
Problematically, modern liberal democracies have decided to remove the state from religious matters and to tolerate even the intolerant. So Nazis can march in Skokie and muslims, if they can raise the money, can build a mosque pretty much where they please. It’s not about their intolerance, but our toleration (≠ endorsement).
Your analogy is wrong. You equate Mecca with the Vatican, on the basis that there are no mosques, or synagogues, in the Vatican. That equation is false. Muslims, Protestants and Jews can enter the Vatican every day. With all my Protestant ancestry, no-one has ever tried to bar my entry to the Vatican.
If I were any kind of non-Muslim seeking access to Mecca, I would be denied (in pretty violent terms, actually). As a non-Muslim, I may be permitted to exist in Muslim countries, Mecca excluded, but I certainly shall not be permitted to build a place of non-Muslim worship. Even Coptic Christians encounter all sorts of obstacles to practising their religion.
I’ve been to Saudi Arabia and it’s no joke. You get caught worshiping Jesus, you go to jail. If your Saudi you go to chop-chop square. Yet people would have us thing we’re the intolerant ones. What a joke they are.
How about for every day a church … er … Christian Outreach Center IS NOT allowed in Mecca, a mosque will be closed in the New York? Outreach that!
Would love to be there for the opening of the REFORM TEMPLE OF MEDINA which will happen somtime around the 12th of Never. We are dealing with ISLAM here, nor just ANY RELIGION. -Dr.Shalit-
7. hmi
Yes, there is a mosque in Rome (constructed not without much contention). But Rome is a secular city, so a more exact analogue would call for the sovereign Vatican state to allow a mosque (let alone a synagogue or a Lutheran church). Does anyone think this likely? I don’t.
The Vatican City State constitutes about 100 acres. Saudi Arabia constitutes about 830,000 square miles, an area where it is forbidden to erect a building for worshiping in a non-Muslim faith. Mecca would not have been the only problematic place in Saudi Arabia for erecting a Christian church. The WHOLE COUNTRY is problematic shall we say. IOW, the argument would have been better phrased not just for Mecca, but for ANYWHERE in Saudi Arabia.
You can well broaden that argument, try to build a church anywhere in Arabia, Pakistan, Indonesia today, you can even include Turkey (our”alley”) and you will see what the reaction is, never mind Mecca.
They want more than a mosque. It’s an entire Islamic cultural center.
A cathedral and seminary in Mecca would be a more equitable arrangement.
Surely, without all that oil sitting in the region (another oil find in Afghanistan this week)the powers that be would have done something long ago to stop its spread. Unfortunately, through our own dependence, we sponsor these zealots, a true double-whammy.
Terry,
You are right 100%, Islam is a religion of in your face, like it or not. Islam can not stand the word “Love”. If you are a none Muslim and try to love any “Islamast” you will be putting him in a very dificult position. He can not love you back, if he wants to show you his love, he can only use words that decives, words such as “Islam respects and protect all religions”, I allways wandered? protection from what? is it protection from kiling you if do not subject your self to the Islamic Shariah? I have never seen any relgion in the world trys so hard to explain that his relgion is a “peaceful one”. If it is a religon then it must be peacfull one without explaining. Only Muslims can change Muslims teaching and replace the word “Love” for every tararistic word in the Quran,I hope our Muslim brothers will do that. I could be joking too, I am only hopefull.
The Christians and the Jawes of Iraq were the true Iraqies, same as it was in eygept, in Yaman even in Macca, so on and so on. We have been driven out slowly. The teaching of Islam, is a problem for every body iclouding the Muslims themselfs too. If now Muslims wants to build bridges to facilitate uderstanding of Islam, please show me one example, any were in the world, of any such a bridge. Unfotunatly the more we respect the Islamist the more we look stupid. Explain that to our elected goverment.
Sounds fair to me!
It is the end for Religious Freedom in the United States as long as Barack Obama is President:
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/26575
I think the true answer to dealing with muslims is to either DEMAND reciprocity, or just force it on them. They do exactly that everywhere they go. Prove to them that it “goes both ways”. I would DEMAND that a Christian church be built right next to a mosque. Failing that, a swine farm should be built there instead, or a pork-centered BBQ restaurant. Every time a bombing occurs in a Christian area, a bomb incident should be enacted on an islamic area. Eye for an eye. Fly an airplane into a building, plan on losing an islamic city somewhere….and on and on until they “get it”. Tolerance wherever they go or they can just get out.
This is an inherently dishonest line of reasoning. The builders of the “Ground Zero Mosque” are not government officials, members of the Saudi Royal Family, or otherwise important or powerful figures in Saudi Arabian government and society, and they would be legally unable to build a church or synagogue in Mecca or change the law so that it would even be possible. Furthermore, Mecca is considered not just a holy site in Islamic theology, but the holiest site–comparing it to Lower Manhattan or Rome is absurd–how about Vatican City instead? Would the Catholic Church authorize the building of a mosque in the Vatican? Or, for that matter, any religious building that is not exclusively devoted to the Roman Catholic religion? Of course not. Finally, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and the other Muslim countries you mention do not have pluralistic traditions of free worship and expression–we do. Playing this tit-for-tat game and saying that if other countries won’t hold themselves to our standards, we won’t hold ourselves to our own standards either is pathetic and childish.
“we won’t hold ourselves to our own standards either is pathetic and childish.
And how pathetic and childish would you sound when they do a “Nick Berg” on you? Whose being a gargantuan child now?
Ted, you just don’t get it do you?
Its not about the authorization of a mosque in lower Manhattan, its about its placement at Ground Zero and everything it says about the attitude of those that propose it or support it.
I’m an Australian and even I get it.
Gentlemen why don’t you present the whole facts here.
I’m amazed by you guys. The fact that you create a lie and believe it too. Do anyone of you have any idea how big is Mecca? It is the tiniest spot on earth.
The question is how many mosques are there in Mecca? ONE..Yes, one mosque. In a place where there is no space for additional mosques, how do you ask for a church.
We (Christians) have the tendency to be intolerant, but we always find a good reason why to be intolerant, don’t we now??
I pose the question to you all, how many Churches and temples are there in Saudi Arabia? That is more of the real question..To Clarify to some of you. Saudi Arabia is not in Louisiana….Saudi is where Mecca is.
Over 40,000 Churches and temples. Where 2/3 of the populations are not Saudis, they are from all over the world and from all kinds of religions, including Americans and British. In fact, I worked in Saudi Arabia for 25 years, and I was treated with dignity and respect, as a Christian, to tell you the truth, I was treated better than most of Muslims are treated.
Now, How many Muslims are allowed to enter the Jerusalem Mosque , nevertheless entering the wailing wall? ONLY Elder PEOPLE…the process of obtaining a permission to enter their own mosque is absolutely inhumane. In contrast, when Salah Eddin gain control over Jerusalem, he made it a true reciprocity. A city for all, not only for Muslims.
How many mosques are there in Vatican City? NONE…additionally, Vatican says no to using the Church for Muslim prayers…real tolerance, huh. ARE YOU KIDDING OUR READERS HERE???
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Vatican-says-no-to-churches-used-as-mosques-696.html . Italy, however, is real tolerant to Muslims and non-Muslims.
When Israel demolish tens of Palestinian homes and mosques every day, for absolutely no reason, except for its own selfish needs, how can you live with yourselves??
Folks, please do some soul searching and get the FACTS before responding to such racist article…Jesus was about Peace & Tolerance.
Just how Christian are you, Carl?
Jesus was not about “tolerance.” Nor was he entirely a peaceful Man. Remember how He dealt with the moneychangers and vendors in the Temple vestibule? Remember “I come not to bring peace, but a sword” — ? Remember “If any man among you hath no sword, let him sell his cloak and buy one” — ?
As for how small Mecca is, that’s hardly the point. The point is that Islam is utterly and completely intolerant of competing faiths. It seeks to subjugate the entire world, by force if necessary. If you know the first thing about Islam, you know that. If you don’t know the first thing about Islam, read the Koran, which Muslims claim to be the literal Word of God as revealed to Muhammad by the Angel Gibril.
As I mentioned above, the visible practice of any religion other than Islam in Saudi Arabia is a punishable offense. In a lot of other places, it will get you “informally” executed by a Muslim mob. Yet this “religion” demands to plant its foot on soil nineteen of its most ardent believers covered with the dust of the World Trade Center and the ashes of 2800 innocent martyrs.
But your objection is about the size of Mecca? The lack of a mosque in Vatican City, which is even smaller (108 acres total)? The fact that the Pope reserves Catholic churches for Catholic worship?
You’ve been found out: you’re either a Muslim or a liberal. I’m not sure which breed is more contemptible.
let me summarize Carl’s post: Christians are intolerant. Muslims are tolerant and peaceful. Jews are evil just because they are. Now carl, aren’t you late for your CAIR meeting?
The aptly named ‘Cordoba House’ will be viewed as a victory over the infidels by the Arab world. Only a fool or a practitioner of taqqiya would call this ‘interfaith outreach’.
Islam is a totalitarian political system masquerading as a ‘peaceful’ religion. In its purest form it is nothing but a 7th century death cult. Islam promotes peace by killing all unbelievers.
Where in the world are you getting this figure of 40,000 churches and synagogs existing in Saudi Arabia? I Googled it and found lots of articles saying there are none and a few saying that the Catholic Church and the Saudis are “talking about” building the first church in Saudi Arabia–that article was written back in March of 2009 (so far, no progress). In fact even the liberal Time magazine says:
“Mosques are the only houses of prayer in a country (Saudi Arabia) where the strict Wahhabi version of Sunni Islam dominates.”
Does that 40,000 figure reflect the historically adhered-to doctrine of the left that a lie told to justify a leftist outcome is justice? You know come to think of it, the Moslems abide by exactly that same law concerning their faith.
Neither the left nor Muslim society ever came to accept the basic lessons of the enlightenment. Muslims, because of their adherence to orthodoxy; liberals, I suspect, because their brains are simply incapable of truely understanding it.
25 Years working in Saudi Arabia, as a Christian, and he didn’t know there were no churches there. Being seminar, Islamic, troll on the internet. Priceless.
I wonder how much genuflecting he did while there. You get treated well if you don’t step on toes. I also wonder how often he wore a crucifix openly, or read the Holy Bible in public (just reading, where someone could see the cover and read what it was). How many services did he attend…that were NOT in the designated Western sectors?
Depending on what his industry was, you can bet he was respected, at least to his face. I’m sure he had genuine friends (if he’s genuine himself), but still, it’s telling he says he was treated more respectfully than muslims around him. If that’s true, he was in a line of business that the royals or the local leaders considered important, not because he was Christian.
As for his tolerance shickt…I have no problems, actually, with holy sites being designated for the faithful (ie, Mecca, Rome, parts of Jeruselum, etc). I think that a lot of people would probably agree. However, the extreme position is taken because it’s not just a site, but an entire country (well, really, an entire region) that forbids the expression of other faiths.
@70 (truthywood)- and your point is? The fact that any religion would persecute others in the past is not an argument for anything, just a statement. Buddhists used to have their zealots too. So what? Do you actually have a point? On the other hand, nevermind…
Jesus was about truth. If we don’t care about truth, we will tolerate anything and “tolerance” will become our worst nightmare as truth could be lost unintentionally or intentionally.
Love others, absolultely. Deliver the truth to the world, absolutely. Invite in every contrary doctrine from around the globe and call all things equal? No. It is our responsibility to use discernment and hold up the truth clearly and without waivering. How do we love people, including our own children, if we waiver on truth and call all claims equal? And where is our allegiance to the Lord who suffered the cross that we might be redeemed if we call all religions equal, even those who would deny that he was on the cross? Both claims cannot be true. Neither then can they be equal.
“Islam is the last word of God” according to the Muslims, hmmm, I wonder if God would agree that a religion that teaches prejudice, intolerance, considers women second class citizens, encourages killing as a way to spread “the word,” and is constantly in a state of war somewhere in the world against believers of other faiths, and still hypocritically calls itself “the religion of peace,” would God agree they are the “last word”?
You people are confusing. You claim to worship the Constitution but do not accept that all Americans are equal under the law. You say America is the greatest most free country in the world while at the same time you want to deny Americans a right to practice their faith. Additionally you advocate that we act in the same way as terrible countries like Saudi Arabia. Those people who want to deny a few mosques here or there demonstrate their ignorance and the fact that they don’t understand the American ideals that they say they cherish. In the end (read mostly white) people will have to accept that muslims in America aren’t going anywhere just like the minorities who moved into your neighborhood aren’t going anywhere. We might as well make nice with the neighbors because in the free America they are allowed to be here just as much as you or I.
Nothing confusing about the truth, nothing at all. The Muslims have a superiority complex about their intolerant religion, free Americans are exposing the Muslim weakness of ignorance and intolerance, nothing confusing about that at all. Muslims may not be going anywhere but they are going to have to change their ways if they truly want acceptance.
Rsmrt, you are completely wrong. As has been repeated ad nauseum, it’s not the building of the mosque that is the problem. It is locating it where so many died in a blatant act of WAR, by Muslims. Do you understand that? What is not computing in your mind? This is the problem I have with you and your ilk. You guys are completely tone-deaf. And then, you try to turn it into a first amendment issue. Its not about can they, its about SHOULD they. I have met and conversed with individuals such as yourself. And you know what I find to be the common denominator: the September 11th attacks didn’t register with you. It did not affect you at all. People who side with you tend to believe that that event was an isolated incident. And to top it off, your ilk say irresponsibly ignorant statements like “that was a perversion of Islam. Their religion is one of peace.” No, it is not. And if you bothered to study Islam, you would know that. This type of behavior has been going on for 1400 years. Islam is about subjugation, not tolerance.
Here is a comparison; it would be like the United Stats erecting a museum dedicated to the ingenuity of scientists creating the atom bomb, located in Nagasaki, Japan. May be the U.S. would have right to build such a thing, but it’s so incredibly offensive to the citizens there. But the fact that you don’t understand that proves that political correctness and moral relativism has corroded your mind. And same goes for President Obama. Your the same as the citizens who submitted to the Muslim hordes, accepting dhimmitude. You not only wrong, but your are a coward.
Carl 1938,
You are right, Jeasus is about Peace & Tolerance. Can you say the same about Mohammed? Go and find tolerance in Turkey, America is not stupid.
I still say, in the interest of ecumenical cross cultural toleration, New York needs a Muslim gay bath house next to the Cordoba Mosque. Full service bar, disco, canine day care center for the pets, 24/7 ribs and chitlins BBQ, and first class steam jobs and blow baths. Yup, say the place is a non-denominational center for humanistic worship, and call it Prophet’s Pigs And Poop. That should test the local zoning board’s city hall’s commitment to the principle of community toleration.
When St. John’s Church was re-opened in Baghdad, local Muslims attended Mass and asked to be photographed, so that their neighbors would know that it is ok to come home.
http://www.aina.org/news/2007111715948.htm
“LTC Stephen Michael at St John’s. LTC Michael told me today that when al Qaeda came to Dora, they began harassing Christians first, charging them “rent.” It was the local Muslims, according to LTC Michael, who first came to him for help to protect the Christians in his area. That’s right. LTC Michael told me more than once that the Muslims reached out to him to protect the Christians from al Qaeda. Real Muslims here are quick to say that al Qaeda members are not true Muslims.”
“The ceremony was long and very Catholic, and since I was not raised Catholic, I would not have understood most of it even if it were all in English. But some of the American soldiers understood what was going on, and they said it was good.”
“Today, Muslims mostly filled the front pews of St John’s. Muslims who want their Christian friends and neighbors to come home. The Christians who might see these photos likely will recognize their friends here. The Muslims in this neighborhood worry that other people will take the homes of their Christian neighbors, and that the Christians will never come back. And so they came to St John’s today in force, and they showed their faces, and they said, “Come back to Iraq. Come home.” They wanted the cameras to catch it. They wanted to spread the word: Come home. Muslims keep telling me to get it on the news. “Tell the Christians to come home to their country Iraq.” ”
Glory to God in the Highest, and Peace to men of good will on this beautiful Sunday.
Very well Mr. Leon de Winter. Very well.
The super rich crude oil Princes, in order to placate the (poor) masses, gave to the Islam clergymen the power to educate (and appease), their young boys.
The problem is that political power shifted from the (cautious) ruling class to the ill-unprepared (imature) recent found power able, Islam church leaders. This is an internal, Islam, problem that must be solved internally.
There are many historical examples of this mixing of religion and politics gone out of control. If not cut at the beginning, by the adults, this childish venue, generally grows and ends with to much blood.
That same phenomena has happen in medieval Europe, Ottomans Turkey, Imperial China … all over the world, time after time, again and again. Rome marched their conquering hordes to the sound of the Divine Cesar. Not so long ago we had our “hundred years” religion based wars. We should also remember our own history, learn and act.
Islam is the youngest of the wide spread religion in the world, just 1.300 years old. If you mix this infantile social organization and a lot of ease money/power, you have a receipt for quite a problem. Would any one cared that much about Islam, without the oil? This is not about religion. It is just about power. The NY imam looks like just a vanity stricken puppet.
But! Is Mr. Obama really well advised?
The Kaaba, or zero point is where Allah and the other 359 false gods are. Allah Akbar! Allah, aka Sin is greatest of all other gods.
Mohammad, who murdered, and raped most of his adult life, said so.
So, many Muslims expect Christians to be tolerant of this idea to place a mosque on nearly the same location 19 extremist Muslims carried out ‘jihad’, murdering 3,000 + American civilians?
Yet multi-generational, voluntarily displaced Muslims in the West Bank REFUSE to acknowledge Israel as a state. These same faux refugees encourage (doing nothing is encouraging) terrorists to launch thousands of explosive devices, kidnappings of Israeli civilians, military people in Israel.
Killing volunteer doctors, journalists, peace activists, country’s Presidents, etc., at hundreds of locations worldwide annually. Hmmm, Mohammed’s message sure seems like a heck of a divider not ‘uniter’.
Where’s the ‘incentive’ in our olive branch offer to a people stuck in 15th Century-like mindset/teachings and contributed next to nothing as a whole in that period, and beyond?
There isn’t one.
A good many comments here echo Terry @ 1, that there’s no hope for the reciprocation scenario that Leon de Winter has suggested — namely, a mosque here for a church there — because the mosque folks will never ever countenance a church under any circumstances, and I agree with those comments.
But, for well-meaning people who are convinced that the reciprocation argument is still a good and valid one, maybe not right now, but for some day in the future, let me first point out what a real and true reciprocation scenario would have to be — namely, that we bomb and raze to the ground a commercial center in Riyadh, killing about 2,800 people in cold blood, and then announce our intention to build a church right there at the site afterwards.
I don’t recommend this, but you see what I mean. Do you think the mosque folks would ever consent?
Of course they wouldn’t, never in a million years, not under those circumstances, especially not on that site, and who could blame them? Not me, certainly, not even if they had come around in their thinking to allow other faiths’ houses of worship to be built in their country. It wouldn’t be right if we insisted upon building a church there, and it would be wrong to get on anyone for saying no to it.
Obama and Bloomberg are all wrong.
Dear Leon de Winter,
You stroke with your arrow the heart of the problem. A mosque in N.Y. against a church in Mekka. Logically said, you are right. But is it feasable? An illusion, and the christians are restless. Who decides are the millions of crude oil barrels flowing daily to the West and Amen. The only way to fight these schizophrenic, narcist, paranoiac and psycophatic desillusioned people is to ban radicaly the islamic immigration into the christian Occident.
We need not go so far, geographically speaking.
WOULD MAYOR BLOOMBERG SUPPORT THE OPENING OF A WHITE SUPREMACIST CHURCH IN HARLEM?
Gustave Flaubert (1821-1880), famous French writer, lettre [n°1728] à madame Roger des Genettes, vendredi 1er mars 1878, dans les “Œuvres complètes de Gustave Flaubert”, Correspondance, huitième série [1877-1880], Louis Conard libraire-éditeur, Paris, 1930, page 112.]:
“Je demande, au nom de l’humanité, à ce qu’on broie la Pierre-Noire, pour en jeter les cendres au vent, à ce qu’on détruise La Mecque, et que l’on souille la tombe de Mahomet. Ce serait le moyen de démoraliser le Fanatisme.”
English translation:
“I demand, in the name of humanity, that the Black Stone be crushed, so that its dust scatters in the wind, that Mecca be destroyed, and that the tomb of Mohammed be dishonored. This is the way to discourage fanaticism.”
Dutch translation: “Ik eis in naam der mensheid dat de Zwarte steen verbrijzeld, het gruis ervan in de wind verstrooid, dat Mekka verwoest en het graf van Mohammed onteerd wordt. Dàt is de manier om het Fanatisme te ontmoedigen.”
Still on the Ground Zero Mosque Fence? Then Read this!
Now that the radical Imam Feisel Abdul Rauf has hit the trifecta in his quest to build his Park51, formerly known as the Cordoba Initiative, New York’s Monster Mosque just may be a go.
(The project name was changed due to the very negative associations with Cordoba, home to the Great Mosque in Cordoba, Spain which was built on the foundations of a Christian cathedral, a fact Muslims would not want Christians to think too much about.)
Rauf must be leaning on his architects to get the project moving so that it will be ready for its scheduled grand opening on, what else?, September 11th, 2011, the tenth anniversary of the Islamic attack on the World Trade Center.
Is that scheduling, indeed, the entire obscenity that is the Cordoba House Initiative/Park51, not the most outrageous example of Muslim in-your-face arrogance of this century, building a monument to Islam barely two blocks from Ground Zero?
Nevertheless, the Islamists now have the Democrat president of the United States as well as the Democrat governor of New York State and the lifelong Democrat mayor of New York City in their corner, all of them spouting the same tired drivel of freedom of religion while ignoring the essential truth that the Islamic religion is irrelevant in this matter.
Does our Jewish mayor ever think of what the Islamists in our midst think of him?
The perfect analogy has already been articulated. . . .
(Read more at http://www.genelalor.com/blog1/?p=1844)
Cordoba Initiative (CI) aims to achieve a tipping point in Muslim-West relations within the next decade…
People of the west, and non-Muslims everywhere, if these words don’t scare the crap out of you, then nothing will.
Where does anyone get off imposing this thing in this area. How the hell do you impose dialogue? I have heard a lot of descriptions of what is happening with this mosque but the one that seems to me to fit best is “imposition”
Nothing that begins with an imposition can have a positive outcome no matter how well intentioned.
But, if you ask me, this is where Islam has always missed the boat. It has always imposed itself on others, claiming good intentions or good ends. They have always imposed themselves claiming that it was necessary to acheive some good end that only Islam could bring. Never for a minute realizing that the impostion itself poisons all such attempts. Dialouge and healing can simply not be imposed!
Thousands of people do not want the mosque built so close to Ground Zero. We do not want Ground Zero to be used for ANY CAUSE other than to remember the dead. Ground Zero is not the place to redeem the name of Islam or to counter-program the horror of what happened there because that has nothintg to do with remembering the dead. The Corodba Initiative wants to impose a cause that does not belong there. There is no room, nor should any room be found for any other cause but memory and honoring the dead.
If the mosque is built it will be nothing more than an attempt to impose religious dialouge where none is wanted or asked for. If this mosque is built it will be just another hijaking committed in the name of Islam, a hijaking of the only cause this sacred ground should be used for in order to use the site to improve the name of Islam.
We have to say no to the hijacking of Ground Zero for the cause of Islam.
I also have to wonder, like Krauthammer, how long it will take for extremists to hijack the mosque. It will have a huge target on it. Mosques are taken over by extremists all the time. I can all to easily imagine that one day there will be people in control of it that will celebrate the Islamic “victory” of that infamous day.
For this and all the above reasons it must be stopped.
“A mosque in New York for a church in Mecca.”
Why not Israel for Constantinople? And while they’re at it, they could hand over 2.5-4 million Muslim slaves to make up for the number of Christians they enslaved over the years (at per capita rates, of course). Plus, we get to hold dominion over 20% of their land for–say–500 years and exorbitantly tax the local inhabitants for remaining Muslims while committing periodic pogroms at our whimsy. And–of course–we reserve the right to plunder their coasts for a thousand years.
Well, that’s a start at evening the score anyways.
I agree with your comment except for this:
all of them spouting the same tired drivel of freedom of religion while ignoring the essential truth that the Islamic religion is irrelevant in this matter.
The Islamic religion is very relevant to this disgraceful provocation, which is, in reality, an act of war. This is the arrogant way Muslims practice their religion. And it will continue until we stand up to them.
Talk show hosts and bloggers should begin to call the Cordoba house (mosque) by its true name which is the 9-11 Victory Celebration Mosque.
Look, I am a conservative American Christian and I don’t understand this.
I love the United States and I love our constitution.
Our constitution is very clear on freedom of religion. Whether you like it or not, Islam is a religion. We cannot make it illegal for Muslims to build a mosque in this country.
Saudi Arabia doesn’t have freedom of religion. It is perfectly legal for them to deny a church on their soil if they choose.
I am just as patriotic as anyone on this site. I honestly don’t understand how so many constitution-loving fellow conservatives can be so blind on this issue. IT IS THE CONSTITUTION. READ THE FIRST AMENDMENT.
Nobody would deny the right for a mosque to be built at ground zero; but as has been mentioned, this is beyond an exercise in the rule of law. This is a country being asked to have a religious center built dedicated to the religion that–in the name of which–was responsible for the killing of thousands of that nation’s citizens.
What kind of unthinking, thoughtless, myopic people would insist on building a structure dedicated to their own religion that was responsible for such an abomination on the very grounds that it happened?
Let’s not pretend to be automatons. Even we Americans have a right to a minimum degree of respect.
Read this more eloquent article on the subject from National Review.
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/243729/9-11-families-stunned-presidents-support-mosque-ground-zero-andy-mccarthy
CAIR, the Muslim brotherhood, those who danced in the street after 9-11, and any other moon god worshiping POS is at war. It is called the house of war. Therefore, the Mosque in question is not protected by the constitution due to that fact, they are the enemy.
The enemy should be attacked, and destroyed.
ROPMA!
If they had wanted to build a modest memorial and worship center for the Muslims killed by the attack (the workers in the building), I’d imagine most of us would not have a problem. If they had participated in the creation of a truely shared, interfaith house of education and dialogue, no one would have cared either. That’s not what they want.
Rule of law is one thing- and it’s why in the end, they will probably build the massive center they want. Most everyone posting here will follow the law, and grudingly support it. However, the larger implications of what that center will be, and what symbolism will be taken from it, must be acknowledged. Also, the 1st amendment allows people to vent their moral outrage at what is taking place. They have their say as well, which as a supporter of the Constitution, you should agree with.
In terms of symbolism, I think I agree with Victor Davis Hanson- once the Mosque and center are built, it won’t be long until there is a large amount of propaganda circulating showing a mosque built on the remains of the once-symbols of the strength and ingenuity of America. It’ll be a symbol of dominance and domination, and the eventual success of Muslim Zealots, not to mention quite a recruiting tool. How do we balance national security against legal use of private property? This, to me at least, is a legitimate question.
Of course, NYC could solve all this and could find claim emminent domain on the site- that’s protected by rule of law and precendent too.
Under our constitution then, temples for witches should be acceptable also. Temples for any claim is game, including a Voodoo temple right? For 200 years our nation did not entertain the approvals for Mosques because we were largely faithful to the God of Israel and his Son Jesus Christ. The constitution was made in a land of Church and State, not Mosque and State. It was never meant to cover the constituencey of foreign gods who had no representation here, but to protect the Christians and Jews who resided here. I do not think our forefathers saw that the United States would become the United Nations. Our papers have limits and we are about to discover their shortcomings as our nation forsakes the God of Israel who made us strong. As the Lord lives, we will not call other gods equal and thrive.
44. Peggy
“Thousands of people do not want the mosque built so close to Ground Zero. We do not want Ground Zero to be used for ANY CAUSE other than to remember the dead.”
************
There’s a strip club 1 block from this mosque. But you didn’t care about that right?
In order to level the field and make everything fair, some nutty out of control Christians should blow up something in Mecca so then it would be a fair trade to have a Mosque near the trade center and a new Christian Church in Mecca
I am very sure that the authorities there will be giving all kinds of reasons not to allow such a proposal to come to fruition. The American people must realise that by allowing a mosque to be built near ground zero is tantamount to a tight slap in the face by those extremists. Those who favor such a move must remember that when the muslims have reached a certain number in population, they will start to demand for their kind of law, ie shariah law. That’s when the real problem will start. Remember what Col. Gadafi of Libya said? “The muslims do not need any more guns to conquer Europe”. So true. So very true.
“The Western Wall in Jerusalem, the Jews’ holiest site, can be visited by anyone — Muslims, Christians, or Buddhists.”
Idle (or perhaps not) historical point – when the Western Wall was under Arab/Muslim control between 1949 and 1967 it could not be visited by … Jews.
If Americans, especially Conservatives, keep on blindly assuming that Islam is just another religion, and therefore its treatment falls under the First Amendment, then there will never be a way to legally challenge such triumphalist affronts as the Cordoba Mosque.
Islam is a totalitarian political ideology masquerading as a religion. While there may be moderate Muslims, there can be no moderate Islam. Until this is understood, the First Amendment will continue to undercut any chance at stopping new mosques, sharia, and the Islamic takeover of our society from within.
It is time for real Conservatives to acquire a backbone. Everything about Islam can and should be opposed because Islam is NOT just a religion.
“THE NATIONAL MOSQUE”
President Obama-mama needs to declare this site “sacred ground” and erect the “First National Mosque and Shrine to Obama” purchased with TARP money. Why just 13 stories, it should be 4 buildings, 3 at 40 stories and one a large shaft to NY. After all, he needs to repay NY for all of their support in getting elected.
Sorry to say this Islam was never a religion. It was a very calculated cunning
way the so called prophet started fooling people in mecca, it did not work and he was to be assasinated but escaped at dead of night as he knew there was no allah to save his so called messaih . It was a ruse to rule over men and get
their unstinted obedience ….he created this eloborate myth that there is one god allah and he was sole messaih.
Wanna Read more ? check historyofjihad (at)org
Wake up america before you become islamicised like my country India, liberal
foolish democracy. Those opposing these jihadi elements are branded by congress party and arab funded paid media in india.
Don’t let it happen in America….this is just the begining of spread of this
sub-human cult worse then nazism.
I have written here and a several other sites making a comparison between Islam and the Aztec Religion which included ritual removal of human hearts while the victim was still alive. My point is meant to be that calling an ideology or a ceremonial activity a “religion” doesn’t mean we have to accept it as such nor do we have to tolerate beliefs or activities no matter how antithetical to our values just because some other group decides to call such activities a religion. The Aztecs believed that their religious rites and activities including human sacrifice were as spiritually valid or acceptable as we feel our religious rites are today. We do not have to accept that there are any religious elements to this debate about the ground zero Mosque at all. To state that the sole purpose of this Islamic center is to create a monument to the Moslem tactical victory of 9/11 is not intolerant in any negative sense of that word and certainly doesn’t justify the charges of Religious intolerance. In my opinion the only “rights” we have to argue about here are property rights.
From President Obama’s remarks Fri Aug 13
“The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country and that they will not be treated differently by their government is essential to who we are. The writ of the Founders must endure.”
Bob Belvedere wrote “I then remembered what one of The Founders wrote and I came to see the wisdom of what Barry stumbled into.”
From John Quincy Adams:
In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar (mohammed), the Egyptian, combining the powers of transcendent genius, with the preternatural energy of a fanatic, and the fraudulent spirit of an impostor, proclaimed himself as a messenger from Heaven, and spread desolation and delusion over an extensive portion of the earth. Adopting from the sublime conception of the Mosaic law, the doctrine of one omnipotent god; he connected indissolubly with it, the audacious falsehood, that he was himself his prophet and apostle. Adopting from the new Revelation of Jesus, the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion. He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST: TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE…Between these two religions, thus contrasted in their characters, a war of twelve hundred years has already raged. The war is yet flagrant…While the merciless and dissolute dogmas of the false prophet shall furnish motives to human action, there can never be peace upon the earth, and good will towards men.
“The writ of The Founders must, indeed, endure.”
This is but a highlight of an excellent post, well worth heading over to The Camp of The Saints
http://thecampofthesaints.wordpress.com/2010/08/16/the-house-of-the-rising-muslim/#comment-5227
A Masque Next To Ground Zero by Hal Lindsey
The plan is to build a 13-story Muslim mosque and cultural center literally only a few hundred feet from Ground Zero in lower Manhattan. The leader of the project, Imam Abdul Rauf, says that the mosque is intended as a gesture to build “bridges between faiths.” Another proponent claims that the mosque, which will occupy the site of a 152-year old building that suffered damage in the 9/11 attack, is really a “celebration of America’s religious tolerance.” Why would a religion founded on fealty to one law, one leader, and one god — a religion whose modern defining characteristic is its intolerance of all other faiths and traditions — actually “celebrate” America’s religious diversity. That’s the very thing Islam HATES about us. How could a religion that reduces women and girls to mere chattel and considers all non-Muslims to be second-class citizens conceivably “celebrate” a non-Muslim society that believes all humans are created equal in God’s sight? It’s laughable. Yet our leaders and the media-types have fallen for it hook, line, and sinker. Are they that stupid or have they been intimidated into acquiescence? New York City already has more than 100 mosques. We’ve already proven that we really are an open, tolerant society. To say with a straight face that this is Islam’s celebration of America’s religious tolerance would be like the Southern Baptists building a church in Amsterdam’s infamous Red Light District to “celebrate” Holland’s sexual promiscuity. It doesn’t make sense because it doesn’t make sense.
I’ll tell you why the Muslims insist on putting a 13-story mega-mosque (which, by the way, will eerily resemble a World Trade Center tower) within earshot of Ground Zero. It will be nothing less than a traditional act of Islamic triumphalism. It’s a symbol of conquest. Although the Muslims have changed the name of the proposed structure to “Park 51 Mosque,” the campaign to build it is still called “The Cordoba Initiative.” For all of you Progressives, and Liberals who are supposed to be intellectual but who can’t change the oil in your own car (like Barry Barack Hussein), I’m going to share with you a short history lesson about the symbolism of “Cordoba” in the Islamic mind. And trust me, the Muslims are big on symbolism.
The world should know that the ‘Cordoba Initiative,’ the New York City based organization desiring to construct a massive Islamic house of prayer at ‘Ground Zero,’ has posted on its website, a peculiar and disingenuous statement indicating the desire to bring back the atmosphere of, “interfaith tolerance and respect that we have longed for since Muslims, Christians and Jews lived together in harmony and prosperity eight hundred years ago.”
I point this out because contemporary scholarship has clearly demonstrated that there was no ‘harmony’ or ‘prosperity’ for non-Muslims in Islamic Spain. The Cordoba Initiative is attempting to revisit some sort of mythical “tolerance and respect” which never existed.
What is irrefutable is that living under Islam, the non-Muslim population was always mandated to submit to Islam, accept discriminatory laws, and make payment of a mandatory Quranic tax imposed upon every non-Muslim. For a period of about 800 years, most of Spain was ruled by Muslims and this area was known as ‘Al-Andalus.’ Islamic rule ended in 1492, when the city of Granada, the last Muslim kingdom in Western Europe, capitulated to the Spanish Catholics.
The Cordoba Initiative is an organization whose very name makes reference to what was, 1,000 years ago, one of the world’s most advanced cities, Cordoba, Al-Andalus (Spain). This was a city that was politically and religiously dominated by Islam, and a city that was conquered by jihad (holy war). Today, there are Islamic groups such as Al-Qaeda that have a dream of seeing a pan-Islamic world that would extend from old Al-Andalus (Spain). This is based upon Islam’s principle of dar-al-Islam, which means a world where Islamic sovereignty prevails over the citizenry. Dar-al-Islam is attained through jihad and the media is replete with Al- Qaeda’s calls for jihad and their claims to Al-Andalus and its major cities such as Cordoba.
Clearly, Islamic Cordoba was once a city where a number of intellectual Muslims such as Averroes (Ibn-Rushd), influenced European thought with Arab philosophy related to the scientific teachings of Aristotle. In mathematics, the Arabs built upon the foundations of Greek mathematicians. At one point there were dozens of free schools in Cordoba for the education of poor Arabs and at some point there existed some 600 mosques. However, even with all of this scholastic and societal grandeur, the route to get to such a point of magnificence was through violent warfare.
Not only were successive battles for Spanish cities bloody, but desiring more than Spain–the Arabs declared a jihad against France, then crossed the Pyrenees, and in successive swarms spread over the southern regions of the French countryside, slaughtering the Christians by thousands, and burning their churches to the ground before being halted.
We must remember that a practice associated with conquering Islamic armies was the construction of a mosque at the location where their triumphant battle was won. Thus, this modern Islamic organization is seeking to build a mosque at the site of 9/11 attack—an attack which was carried out by 19 Muslim hijackers who considered their mission holy war.
Insomuch, it is this man’s opinion that a Muslim house of prayer that would be cemented in the ashes of catastrophe at the foot of New York’s lost Twin Towers would be a symbolic victory flag for Muslims who seek the destruction of America. Further, it is my honest opinion that no matter how the construction of a mosque at ‘Ground Zero’ may be perceived by well-meaning Americans, the construction of a mosque on the spot where Al-Qaeda brought jihad to the United States will unquestionably represent victory to the worldwide forces of Radical Islam.
What Obama had to say about placing a Mosque at ground zero was perhaps expected; but a failure on his part to yield to the will of the majority of people in America will cost Obama everything he has and force him out. No mosque will be built on or anywhere near ground zero.
Why were the Obama comments expected?
For a man who writes, “The Muslim Call to Prayer is one of the Prettiest Sounds on Earth”, said Barack Obama to the New York Times. What would you expect?
For a man who spent a great deal of time as a youth in Indonesia surrounded by Muslims; his step-father Sotero was Muslin, his uncles and aunts were Muslim, his grandfather was Muslim and his relatives and friends were Muslim. Obama read and recited the Islamic book called the Koran daily. What would you expect?
For a man that says America is no longer a Christian nation, despite the statistical fact that almost 80% of American’s relate to Christianity in some way. What would you expect? In truth, Muslims are not more than .06 to less than 1.0% of the population in America (est. 2009). Very small percentage of Muslims in America, very small.
On more than one occasion, Obama has had a Freudian slip and declared that he is, or his religion is, Islamic. What would you expect?
Both Obama and Bloomberg have the right idea. This is a religious question. However, remember that there is NO imperative that a mosque be built in the area called ground zero. And, as a matter of tolerance, we can say that those Muslims that want to build a mosque in New York can build it elsewhere. That is tolerance enough and certainly more than the Muslims have for our feelings about ground zero.
And, as for Obama’s declaration that we must allow for religious freedom, I agree. An overwhelming majority of America’s Christians believe that Islam is primitive, of the devil, intolerant, unforgiving and backward. The Koran is proof that Muslims are encouraged to kill infidels rather than tolerate them; and force their religion upon others. Islam is an extremely degenerate set of outdated tenets.
So we have to be tolerant of Muslims when their Islamic ideals call for intolerance; I say NO.
Nevertheless, Christian opinion is strong enough to carry the day and prohibit, by whatever means, the building of a mosque anywhere near ground zero.
And, as long as Obama has declared that we shall have religious freedom, Christians and other dignified non-Muslim individuals will fight openly and freely against everything that Islam and Muslims stands for.
As a matter of fact, we shall pray fervently that the Muslims who don’t give a damn about the sanctity of ground zero can go to hell. Religiously, we shall oppose this plan of theirs with everything we have. And, to those who feel that we should tolerate Muslim’s intolerance regarding respecting our views on ground zero — Obama and Bloomberg and liberal extreme democrats — we American’s will push them out on election day or sooner by any means we can.
American’s have begun their fight to put Islam down as unAmerican; it is part of our religious right and the free exercise our beliefs. Amen.
This is the perfect test of the commitment of people like this imam to the true sense of the Bill of Rights. I’ve always seen the Freedom of Religion clause and the Establishment clause as to be read together, as an injunction to be tolerant and respectful of others’ beliefs, something our courts have lost sight of and which radical Islamists aren’t willing to even consider. It threatens their image of themselves, which is itself a reaction to the shame they feel that their cultures have fallen so far behind that of the West. The West has its share of corruption and wickedness, but it has delivered greater prosperity to the common man than any system in history, and that is what they really hate.
While we’re waiting for a Christian church to be built in one of the Islamic paradises, perhaps the plans for the GZM can be modified to include an all-faiths chapel.
TMG95
In the very sentence that you highlighted, I believe that I emphasized the word CAUSE. You must be blind.
The strip club is a business, however distasteful, it is not COMPETING with the cause of remembering the 9-11 dead. It is not attempting to counter-program the abiding truth about 9-11 that Muslims killed 3000 people in the name of Islam.
That is what the Cordoba House is attempting to do. It is attempting to squeeze in a positive message about Islam where none is wanted.
9-11 should forever be a testament and a blight on the name of Islam. Let them build their bridge of dialouge somewhere else.
No one is saying not to build their mosque. No one here is saying that there should be a law against building a mosque at the site. It is not a reigious freedom or church/state separation issue. It is a moral one. They should build it elsewhere honoring the request of thousands of people, a majority of Americans.
If they really want to build bridges, they will move it. And they sure as hell won’t open it on the 10th frikkin anniversary of the attack. People are riled up by the audacity of the thing and the double talk about religious respect and dialougue when it is really a spit in the face.
I think you need to wake up (and try reading a comment before you attack it) I am as libertarian and as Constitution loving as anyone, yourself included. This is a issue of civility or in the case of the mosque builders, incivility and I don’t think anyone should stand for it.
So I think you, and others here who also don’t see the problem, need to get down off your high horse.
The views of this site are NOT a prejudiced rant…I have experienced this first hand – Want to know more take a look at the following link….Time to wake up people..before it’s too late.
http://www.persecution.com/public/restrictednations.aspx?clickfrom=bWFpbl9tZW51
you read http://www.islamtomorrow.com
worship of god(allah)only you keep faith in god
Fellow dudes and dudettes,
Let me lay some pearls of wisdom on you. This is America 2010. It is not Germany in 1938. The mosque has a constitutional right to be built there. Let’s stay focused here. No one is trying to degrade your religion or point of views. Its only a mosque. There is a constitutional separation of church and state. Anybody who has the cash and the proper papers for construction can build whatever they want their. Jews shouldn’t ever relinquish their national heritage. No one has asked them to. To do so would be wrong. Yet isn’t that what many are asking Muslims to do? Jews certainly have their right to their national land, Israel. Those territories belong to them. They can build a synagogue anywhere on Manhattan island they choose, just like their Muslim brethren, who are also descendants of Abraham, just like Jews.
Why are the Intollerant Preaching Tolerance?
Islamization : The erasure of the customs, norms and laws of any country or region in order to purely reflect Islamic sentiment. This can be done through political pressure – as in the West – where full out Jihad is not possible, such as in places like Pakistan and Afghanistan, where the ultimate goal of Islamization has been achieved by violent Jihad and finally through political pressure for peace – which in Islam can only come under Shari’a rule.
Dawa, whether done from the rubble of the World Trade Center or elsewhere, is the missionary work by which Islam is spread. Islam is not merely a religion. In truth, Islam is a comprehensive political, social, and economic system with its own authoritarian legal framework, sharia, which aspires to govern all aspects of life.
Why are the Intollerant Preaching Tolerance
Islamization [Islamisation]: The erasure of the customs, norms and laws of any country or region in order to purely reflect Islamic sentiment. This can be done through political pressure – as in the West – where full out Jihad is not possible, such as in places like Pakistan and Afghanistan, where the ultimate goal of Islamization has been achieved by violent Jihad and finally through political pressure for peace – which in Islam can only come under Shari’a rule.
Dawa, whether done from the rubble of the World Trade Center or elsewhere, is the missionary work by which Islam is spread. Islam is not merely a religion. In truth, Islam is a comprehensive political, social, and economic system with its own authoritarian legal framework, sharia, which aspires to govern all aspects of life. This framework rejects core tenets of American constitutional republicanism.
Who would attend the Christian Church in Mecca since the Muslims there do not allow Christians? They kill them!
Islam has no “golden rule” Islamist are unable to grasp the concept. They are at the core a hate group filled with
intolerance and those who think otherwise do not really know anything about Islamic teachings.
I suggest to build a handfull of temple in Mecca
I mean, let’s make this a city of God !!!
A different mosquee for every different Islamic faith
(I suspect the mosquees in Mecca are all of a single faith,
they don’t even trust each others between such small boundaries)
A Catholic Cathedral, let’s not be shy, with bells chiming each hour
A monastery for every major monk’s order
An Orthodox Cathedral for the Orthodix faith
(and church for minor orthodox faith if any)
A Protestant Cathedral for every major protestant faith
A churc for every minor christian faith
A synagogue for the Jews 8D I’m sure that’ll make Muslim happy !
A large temple for every distinct Hinduist faith 8D
A large temple for every distinct Bhudist faith
A large temple for every distinct other religion
Some representative builting for every distinct school of thought that is somewhat mystic (free massons, Zen, Reiki, etc)
I’m sure our muslim brothers will accomodate us and do this to prove their openess
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The Coran itself isn’t half that bad, the problem is most muslim don’t give a damn about the Coran besside considering it holly. They only read the interpretations of it, the little commentary bellow who more often than not are full of bad stuff. The Coran itself says not to kill. In some version the comentary gladly rurn it into “don’t kill muslim” and then deform some other text to say you must kill jews. And then there are the other books like the little green book which are quite horrible
The situation is similar to the corrupts priest who ordered the crusades. The devout 18th century christians who rulled that black peoples had no soul, and bessides women had no soul either. The problem is that men are men, and some of those allatoyah and immams are not so holly but are verry good at manipulating peoples
If you look arround you’ll see christian preachers that are every bit as corrupt. You’ll find hindu priest “riding you of your karma” for a sum of money (an absurd concept, as absurd as a priest removing your sin after a donation, heaven simply don’t work that way)
We shouldn’t be extreme in our reaction to that mosque. But I do think it’s a verry bad idea. If only because it will increase frictions between religions. Also I think spending 100 millions to build a “carritative building” is an absurdity. They claim they plan to help peoples. Give me that 100 million and I’ll show you how many peoples can be helped WITHOUT BUILDING A MOSQUE just by creating jobs or someting. Hell ! Just hire poor peoples to plant trees, with 100 million that’s a lot of tree, a big change in the good direction
A church in Mecca?
Surely you know that Islam doesn’t believe in recognition and tolerance of other faiths. That is absolutely forbidden where they reign.
Islam means submission in Arabic.
Think about it.
http://www.jewishdailyreport.wordpress.com
Apple vs Oranges, If you want to really compare than compare Vetican city with Mecca.
By the way will that be ok if remaining 55 Muslim countries who allow Churches , put restrictions or ban on Churches because Western Christians are killing millions of Muslims. they are destroying the Muslim countries since decades, they destroy democracy, install puppets, and continue to support illegal occupation of Israel because of their belief of Armagaddon which is going to kill all non believers.
Its only recently that Christians allowed any other faith to live between them, other wise until now they have only persecuted other faiths other colors.
Don’t fear any Church ,Mosque or Synagogue
Don’t be duped by the dupers ….this is fodder so you don’t smell
our economic problems in America .
If it is a problem lets just simply tumble all the bricks and blocks
of these religious houses and just stay home and pray to your choice
of Abrahamic religion
DONT FORGET …..THIS IS STILL AMERICA ..we are not in the Balkans
I compeletly oppose a mosque at New York especially after 3 rated muslims destroyed it, It is an insult to people who lost there lives at 9/11.
All muslim in the world are worst kind of people, all they do destroy other people happiness in name of pevert muhamud,
I think just as muslims place restriction on other religion we should restrict there belif in America, NO to prayer hall, no mosque, no burque, if they fail to follow they should be thrown out. No place for such a third rate religion.
The muslim are kind bad of virus, they simply blame other for there own problem and bomb and train terrorist.
Americans must wake up, America is a place for human being with plurist society not hate monger muslims.
“No other sanctuary of any world religion is closed to members of different creeds”
Not true. Not true at all. Some christian sanctuaries are even closed to women. Why? Because they follow traditions a lot of centuries back. Religion doesn’t progress or evolve quickly. Not everything progresses with the same rate.
But come on. This is not rocket science. There is a reason that some countries are called developed and some not. Christians use to organize crusades (passing by Constantinoupole and raiding it just as a bonus event). But that is in the past. The western world is more “civilized” now. Some countries are not at that stage. They are NOT as the western was hundreds of years ago, but they are a century or half behind.
You should stop confusing civilizations with countries and religions.
If this is to happen, this will mean the end of islam, just think about it, every one take mecca as gravity spot for their prayer, as you know (or may not) every one else is infedal, the cross is the symbol of infidedilism, so mecca will not and could no longer be the keblah or the worship spot, & this will mean the end of islam which is by the way the religion of tolerance …and with the end of islam (peaceful) will come the end of terorism..can u imagine that
seriously it time churches to built in very country especially Saudi Arabia