A Double Tragedy for Norway
Living in Oslo during the past few years, I passed the government buildings downtown almost every day. I lived right up the road from them, only a five-minute walk; they were my gateway to downtown Oslo. Very often, when I looked over at these structures in which, I knew, the prime minister and all of the cabinet ministries had their offices, I shook my head in wonder at the utter lack of visible security. Almost never did I see a single armed — or even unarmed — guard. (The only exceptions were on the rare occasion when a blizzard of foreign flags and a motorcade parked on the sidewalk indicated that some president or prime minister was visiting from abroad.)
This lack of security was certainly not unusual for Norway, where the police don’t carry guns, and where the very idea of police carrying guns is widely looked upon as some holdover from an earlier stage of human evolution. But — hello — in front of the main office buildings of a Western European government? After 9/11? It seemed sheer madness. In recent weeks, passing grim-faced soldiers with machine guns at Amsterdam airport, and then outside the New York Stock Exchange, I thought immediately of those vulnerable-looking government buildings in Oslo.
When I first heard the news of the explosions at those buildings, my first thought, of course, was that it was a jihadist attack. But it wasn’t: it was a right-wing lunatic. It wasn’t jihad. It was a meaningless killing spree by a madman, like the ones at Columbine and Virginia Tech. A headline in one Norwegian newspaper today noted that the death toll in Oslo and at Utøya yesterday was higher than at Columbine and Virginia Tech combined. The Norwegian media have always reported on mass murders by lone gunmen in the U.S. as if they were things that could never happen in Norway: rather, they were symptoms of a sick society that Norwegians could never possibly understand. In Norway, they use the term “amerikanske tilstander” — American conditions. It never means anything good. Yesterday’s nightmare, from a Norwegian perspective, was the most American of American conditions.
Those of us who thought, in the first hours after the blasts in downtown Oslo, that we were witnessing yet another act of jihad can be forgiven. In a way, it made sense. 9/11, London, Madrid, Beslan, Bali, Mumbai — why not Oslo? Then again…Norway, although a member of NATO with troops in Afghanistan and Libya, was not exactly in the forefront of the struggle to defeat jihad. On the contrary. Norway calls itself “the peace country.” For years, the Norwegian government and cultural establishment have striven to communicate to even the most extreme elements of international Islam that they want to be friends. They’ve shown their good faith in a number of ways:
- They’ve made a great show of treating Jews very shabbily. Jostein Gaarder, author of the international bestseller Sophie’s World, published an op-ed a few years back declaring his contempt for Israel and the Jewish people. When Gaarder came in for some criticism, many high-profile members of the Norwegian cultural elite rushed to stand shoulder to shoulder with him. If the cultural elite in Norway is more anti-Semitic than its counterparts in any other country in Europe, it has a great deal to do with the recognition that the more you like the Jews, the more you’ll antagonize the Muslims.
- They’ve been extremely gentle with Mullah Krekar, Norway’s resident terrorist. While some government officials have (admirably) labored to get the founder of Ansar al-Islam returned to his native Iraq, the system has repeatedly protected him, allowing him to stay in a very nice flat in Oslo, where he is supported by the state. Over the years the Norwegian media have churned out countless profiles of this murderous, child-torturing monster, invariably depicting him as a charming, grandfatherly type and allowing him plenty of space to bash the United States.
- They’ve squelched criticism of Islam. In January 2006, Vebjørn Selbekk, editor of a small evangelical publication called Magazinet, reprinted the Danish Muhammed cartoons — and sent the Norwegian establishment into a tailspin. Politicians at the very highest level pressured Selbekk to apologize for his offense. He withstood admirably — for a while — but eventually buckled, and on February 10, 2006, appeared before a gathering of Norwegian imams and begged their forgiveness for having exercised his freedom of speech. Top government officials looked on in satisfaction, and a delegation led by a bishop of the Church of Norway traveled to Yemen to deliver the happy tidings of this capitulation to the theologian widely viewed as the closest thing to a Muslim pope, Yusuf al-Qaradawi.
- They’ve dropped displays of Islamic totalitarianism down the memory hole. Two years ago, on two separate nights, a small army of Norwegian Muslim youths rioted in the heart of Oslo, turning a usually placid quarter into something reminiscent of Sarajevo or Beirut at their worst. The alleged motive for this explosion of violence was displeasure over the situation in Gaza; the real intention was to mount a display of power — to intimidate, and to communicate to Norway that their time had come, and that they had better be listened to with respect, or else. And in February of last year, another small army of Muslims, this time not rioting boys but sullen-looking men in long coats and full beards, gathered in downtown Oslo, in the same square where Vidkun Quisling once held his Nazi rallies, and listened with apparent pleasure while a young speaker named Mohyeldeen Mohammed threatened Norway with its own 9/11. Both of these events came and went, and the people who make decisions about this sort of thing plainly decided that it would be best to pretend that they had never happened.
- They’ve openly supported terrorist groups. In the last few days, one of the major stories out of Norway has been the declaration by Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Støre of his country’s support for the effort by Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas to seek United Nations recognition of a Palestinian state. This stance scarcely came as a surprise, given the Norwegian government’s longstanding effort to “build bridges” to Hamas. It was Støre, after all, who — when a couple of dozen Western diplomats walked out on a rabid anti-Israeli speech by Mahmoud Ahmedinejad at the 2009 UN conference on racism — was the only Westerner who chose to stay and hear him out.
- And the way they’ve talked to Norwegian Muslims about Islamist terrorism has been — well, consider this. A couple of years ago, when Jørn Holme, head of security services for the Norwegian police, showed up at a meeting sponsored by the Muslim Students Association, supposedly to discuss terrorism, surveillance, and the Muslim community, his main goal seemed to be to bond with the Muslims in attendance by putting down ethnic Norwegians (who, he said, were “too stupid to understand that there is no connection” between Islam and terrorism) as well as white American Christians (“In the United States in the sixties,” he told the audience, “blacks were raped by whites who went to church the next day”). Holme called the United State “human-rights-violation-country number one” and said that his greatest fear, when he contemplated a possible terrorist act in Norway, was that such an act would inflame anti-Muslim prejudice.
You can see, then, that while an Islamic terror attack on Oslo was a possibility, it would’ve been just plain dumb for Islamists to make an enemy of Norway.






It’s over for you over there, Bruce. They will find a way to implicate you now. You’ve already had one brush over supposed hate speech.
If you stay, they will jail you.
Come home Bruce. It’s time to end the exile.
Writing like this, we wiull make him leave Norway. Imagine some foreigner living in NY writing this about the US 2 days after 9/11. I spit on you Bawer. Pwah.
Norwegian,
Are you threatening Mr. Bawer?
The comparison with 9/11 just doesn’t work.
9/11 was foreign terrorists killing innocent Americans on American soil. It was an act of war by foreigners.
Your tragedy was a Norwegian killing innocent Norwegians in Norwegian soil. Whatever the issue was, it was clearly domestic.
You certainly make his point.
Imagine it? It happened a thousand times over. Lots of foreigners living in NYC say uncomplimentary things about the US all the time, including just after 9/11. Isn’t that just real life in Western countries?
Don’t get me wrong – many more of them said very nice things, and we’ve been glad to have them in our corner for compassion regardless of their politics.
Years ago I endured a Norwegian’s rants about how terrible the US is. She was here vacationing and a friend, who met her, invited to his BBQ. Over the course of her 60 minutes stay she had not a nice thing to say about the US. I only understood where she was coming from after reading Bawer’s excellent book:
While Europe Slept. She was so conditioned by her culture to reflexively hate all things American that I am sure she had no idea how rude she was coming across. In my opinion the Norwegian’s have truly lost their way.
That said I truly sympathize and suffer with them. This is a horrible tragedy which should never have happened.
“Imagine some foreigner living in NY writing this about the US 2 days after 9/11.”
In fact, we had people who wrote much worse things. They are still here. We still have freedom of speech. Do you?
I didn´t want to have this discussion now, but it needs to be said: the idea that because of this horrible crime one cannot disgree with Norwegian policy anymore makes no sense. No, it is downright fascistic.
You and your people will be persecuted now, and rightly so. If I see you in the street (and I know where you live) I will not threaten or hurt you. . .
I certainly feel for the horrible thing that happened in your country but the pairing of those sentences isn’t the best example of logical consistency.
LF%¤k you for writing this 2 days after our 9/11.
This is really not your 9/11 (terrorist from foreign nations murdering thousands) but your Virginia Tech (a home-grown loon murdering dozens). Condemning him for writing about this would be like condemning a Norwegian for criticizing American culture for allowing for Virginia Tech.
Not saying that ever happened, of course.
But it does make one wonder what kind of society would allow for the creation of a Breivik. Don’t you have gun control over there?? Don’t you promote tolerance of other cultures in your schools and media??
These are troubling questions that you have to recognize.
Bruce,
I wouldn’t worry about threats from these so-called “enlightened” Norwegians. Of the 37 real men left in Europe, none probably live in Norway.
I hope that you’re an old geezer. If so, death will be your way out. If you’re a young guy, you have a life of hell and misery to look forward to in Norway. If your country and your government keep kow-towing to the Muslims and appeasing them by allowing the creep of their culture, you will live in dhimmitude.
The Norwegian birth rate is very low. The Muslim birth rate is very high. It is a law of demographics that the Muslim population in Norway will overtake the ethnic Norwegian population at some point in the next few decades. At that time, you will be forced to convert to Islam or will be forced to give up your property and pay the Muslim tax so they will let you live. You will have no freedoms, no property, no prospects in life, and certainly no quality of life. Your Norwegian culture will have been erased. A once-great country will be under the thumb of a theocratic totalitarian state.
And, there will be nowhere to run. All of Europe will be in the same boat. I wonder why it is that you are unwilling to stand up for your own culture and country in the face of this threat. Could it be that “Norwegian” is really a Muslim?
If you are truly Norwegian: Like I said, I hope you’re an old geezer.
Funny thing is, even with all the anti-US bilge being spewed in Norway we’ll still take in as many of their children and grandchildren who escape from the hell their parents and grandparents stupidly created for them. Ditto for the Swedes, Danes and French. Why Europe feels the need to self-destruct like this I do not know but for a couple of generations after I’m dead and gone things are going to be rather unpleasant for non-Muslims.
Don’t you mean 85 kids massacred by YOUR fellow Norwegian “loonatic”?
I laugh that you are advocating persecution when you’ve probably excused Islamic behavior against the US on the basis that we persecute them. Did you participate in persecutions of the right in the past? Maybe this was his twisted attempt at payback.
I don’t know why you’re ranting, “Norwegian.” Shortly you and all of your “enlightened” people will discover precisely what Islamics think of you and how they will treat you.
Repeat after me: “I am a Dhimmi, and my Islamic masters are right, I am subhuman. They can kill me with impunity, rape my women, persecute me…
…and some people tried to warn us, but typically, we were such arrogant people following the soulless, ballless politics of our weepy liberal ‘thinkers’, that we let it happen to us”
And that will be the death-knell of you and yours.
This is an absolutely fascinating response by Norwegian. I am curious, if this attack were perpetrated by an Islamist and Bawer were a Muslim, would Norwegian still be responding thus: “You and your people will be persecuted now, and rightly so”.
I seriously doubt it.
I am Norwegian too, and this “Norwegian” posting here is pathetic.
Bruce, you are 100% correct. It is a double tragedy for Norway. The tragedy of many lost lives today as a result of the massacre and the tragedy of Norway’s decline in the future as a result of what I fear will be hugely damaging policies instituted in the coming months.
Norway of today is definitely not the Norway I grew up in. Just today, some guy was shot in the head in my home town of Sandnes. This would have been headline news a few years ago, but now these crimes happens all the time.
The Norwegian elite are a bunch of stupid sheep. I don’t know which one is the most contemptible but Holme would have to have the lead.
It’s tragic what happened to them yesterday but it is obvious that they are in for far worse in the future.
We are in for much of the same here in the U.S. It’s only a matter of when. I hope that people in this country start paying attention to people such as Francis Schaeffer. These people are capable of a fair amount of violence. And they really do want to “take back America”.What is it going to take to wake people up to the meance of fundamentalist Christianity and the tea party? I wish I knew, but if we don’t wake up soon, we will end up with something like the Republic of Gilead in Margaret Atwood’s “The Handmaid’s Tale”.
“the menace of fundamentalist Christianity and the tea party”? Such as what? Those Tea Partiers don’t even litter, let alone riot. The Muslims who murdered three thousand Americans on 9/11 and the Muslim who shot dozens of his fellow soldiers at Fort Hood were shouting “Allahu akbar!”, not “Praise the Lord.”
And yet the Tea Partiers haven’t engaged in any violence since their inception, though they have had to deal with being physically attacked and have been slandered as well. All of this is a testament to how much power they have at the polls, and that’s what really bothers you, praetorian.
The menace of the Tea Party? Are you kidding?? The last time I was at a conservative/Tea type rally, I got a stern and angry lecture for >weaseling my way to the front of the crowd instead of waiting politely behind the rest of the peopletoo< proper…..
“Take back America” was an Obama slogan as well. Except he meant back to the 1930s.
Atwood´s silly novel was written 26 years ago and that scenario is unlikelier than ever. You are stuck in a time warp, not we.
So, you mean that we deserve more attacks by rightwingers? Exactly how does this differ from all the lefties who said the US deserved 9/11? As my fellow norwegian above, I think Bruce Bawer should leave the country now.
No, I did not say that Norway is more deserving of being attacked. What I did say is that with the kind of leadership you have (Holme, for example – he hasn’t made an honest effort to find any answers from what I read), that it wouldn’t be surprising to see this happen in the future. For starters, it took your police force 90 minutes to show up – that’s unacceptable and it appears that they either don’t have the numbers to do the job adequately and/or that they are tied down by procedures that prevent them from appearing in a timely manner for something like this.
And given the fact that it is unreasonable to expect the police to be on the site the moment a serious crime is being committed, maybe you Norwegians should start thinking about legalizing concealed carry permits in order to be able to defend yourselves under such circumstances. The shooter had plenty of time to reload, which would have given an armed adult who has a concealed carry permit time to shoot back. I don’t know how many lives would have been saved here with concealed carry permits being allowed by the law but it would have been significant.
Finally, you do have a Muslim problem, regardless of how supplicant some of your politicians are (like Holme) towards them. Too many of them are not interested in living peacefully amongst the non-Muslims and no amount of reasoning with this faction will convince them otherwise. But if you don’t believe me, feel free to ask the Egyptian Copts what it is like to live under this group of Muslims.
to theBuckWheat and the rest of you:
Please, make your own research and from that your own points about the Norwegian society and its social democratic system! Copy these tips and base your opinions from what information you can gather from all sort of different sources (Warning: If you are a facistic/monoethnic person like the madman 22.07.2011 in Oslo and Utøya, this might be difficult for you as it will strengthen the lack of logic in such ideologies).
Check the reliability of your sources,
compare the information first gathered with 2nd hand opinions,
go wide to get an overview and in detail to get a depth,
think historically and be at presence,
try see and listen from different perspectives,
and act according to how you would like others to treat you
If this way of thinking is too new and farfetched for you, start with just a few examples: What have been found in connection to what might be the first human appereance on the northern hemisphere ? How/When/Why did people go north ? How is the contemporary society, who´s living in Norway today, what are their origins, political views, hobbies, work, food, way of living etc..? Find differencies and similarities. Compare Norway to other places with historical-geographical-social-political similarities. Research left and right angled political views, tabloid headlines, intellectual articles, study science, religions, economics, and whatever subject you find available, talk with Norwegians in Norway and abroad and foreigners in and outside Norway-and when youre a bit more enlightened-it might be interesting to continue a discussion in this forum.
Which is a very long-winded and arrogant way of saying: “Shut up.”
Dishing out such lectures can be self-defeating. I´m sure you have lots of uneducated opinions about the USA and many other things.
Interesting: “I disagree with you, so you have to leave my country now.”
“So, you mean that we deserve more attacks by rightwingers?”
No- you are engaging in the cheapest form of the strawman, putting words in the other fellow’s mouth which are a complete distortion of what he actually said.
What happened in Norway was not derserved. It was not justifiable, or excusable, or (in the soft sense) understandable.
It was, however, predictable. It is not an endorsement of evil to observe that evil can arise as the result of foolish policies: it’s a commonplace that the vindictiveness of the Versailles Treaty led to the rise of Hitler, and saying so is of course not a defense of Nazism. Similary, it is I think rationally and impartially deducible from observed facts that some sort of violent backlash against unfettered Muslim immigration, and the social and often legal prohibition against criticizing it, would happen sooner or later, just like it was entirely predictable that desegregation efforts in the American South would lead to Klan violence.
Bruce, have you had a chance to review his video manifesto, or has that been embargoed?
People can watch it HERE (for now until it gets taken down again).
There is a dramatic growth in neo-fascist groups in Europe.
They are very different from those that emerged in the 1930s.
These new neo-fascist groups are strongly pro-Zionist–they recently organized a official visit to Israel–to Yad Vashem and to West Bank settlements.
They are also either neutral or even pro homosexual.
What they hold in common is a hatred of Islam
EG-SIOE uses the slogan:
‘Racism is the lowest form of stupidity! Islamophobia is the height of common sense’.
In American demographic terms 5,200 people, mainly kids, were slaughtered in Norway.
This will never be forgotten.
There will now be a massive police and security crack down on these neo-fascist groups in Europe and on their US affiliates.
Unfortunately this will also damage free speech rights.
What is EG-SOIE an acronym for and where did you hear about it?
Actually it is SIOE–sorry
http://sioeengland.wordpress.com/
Norwegian bloggers are reporting that Breivik is the author of a blog called Fjordman and that he’s guest blogged for Atlas Shrugs, Jihad Watch and Gates of Vienna “for years.”
As Breivik, he publicly praised one of her posts.
Elise Hendrick has translated a passage from Realisten which confirms that Fjordman and Breivik are one and the same:
According to his own statements, Anders Behring Breivik previously operated the blog ‘Fjordman’, and later wrote for many years under the pseudonym Fjordman for the anti-Muslim and Zionist blogs Gates of Vienna and Jihad Watch.
In fact, an intrepid friend of Elise’s has created a web page with the “collected works” of the miraculous Fjordman.
Pretty soon there’ll be a Festschrift in his honor.
And did you know he’s written a book (of course he has, he’s an articulate mass-murderer), Defeating Eurabia.
It’ll only set you back 50 bucks to get a glimpse into the mind of an anti-jihadi terrorist.
there is a favorable review of Geert Wilders magnum opus, Fitna penned by Fjordman.
Pam Geller, Atlas Shrugs, re Fjordman/Breivik: “Libelblogger Charles Johnson is claiming that the Norway shooter is a ‘Pamela Geller fan,’ and that he is actually Fjordman, whose articles I have published here at Atlas on occasion. He has persisted in this even though Fjordman is online tonight and clearly not under arrest. This shows how desperate Johnson is, and how low he will sink. In reality, the shooter is not Fjordman. I have met Fjordman, I know his identity, and he is not Anders Breivik. This is just a sinister attempt to tar all anti-jihadists with responsibility for this man’s heinous actions.”
Geller on the allegation by Norwegian bloggers that Breivik was “a guest blogger” “for years,” says that Breivik made one comment on her blog: “The shooter once posted ONE link to Atlas. ONE link.”
Norway Shooter a Charles Johnson Fan: http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/
I’ve been reading the terrorist’s manifesto, and found that he wrote:
“Q: Who is your favourite contemporary author and why?
A: That would be Fjordman. Despite a couple of attempts, I have not been able to meet with him even though he is Norwegian. He is quite paranoid which is understandable to a certain degree I guess. Many have asked if I am Fjordman, but this is obviously not the case.”
Are there not pictures of Fjordman on these other blogs?
I recall during the Iraq war coming across his blog, took that writer to be much older than this guy though, that’s just my impression.
Typical, typical, typical of the smear campaigns of the Euro-left: label anybody to the right of Noam Chomsky a “fascist” or “neo-Nazi.” SIOE (Stop the Islamicization of Europe) a neo-Nazi group??? About like the Salvation Army. And then of course the grand smear lauched by that lunatic Charles Johnson, with his unhinged obsession with Pam Geller- the notion that this terrorist is prominent Norwegian conservative blogger Fjordman.
Pathetic.
—————————
My sympathies and prayers are with the families of the dead, and the Norwegian people as a whole: I have fond memories of Oslo. This terrorist should be put down like the rabid dog he is, or jailed until he rots.
But it’s shameful that the Left are using this tragedy to further their own campaign of hatred against conservative dissenters. If you oppose pollution, does that make you a fellow-traveller with every Earth Liberation Front bombing? If I think Ireland should be united, does that make me an IRA supporter? Please. Rather more to the point: given Norway’s lavish support for the Palestinians, does that mean Norwegians endorse Hamas murders?
In American demographic terms 5,200 people, mainly kids, were slaughtered in Norway.
NO!! Ninety-three people were killed (that’s the last death toll I’ve heard) were killed, NOT 5,200. It makes no sense to scale that up by using the ratio of the populations of Norway and the United States.
Is the slaughter of 93 people not terrible enough? What the hell is wrong with this Norwegian that he has to fiddle the numbers to make it look even worse?
Or is he trying to claim that one Norwegian is worth 56 Americans?
What an exceedingly strange comment.
This is a lot of nonsense. Dramatic rise? I follow the European press and there is no evidence for that. A couple of websites and forums mean nothing.
What is your evidence that these people are actually fascist, that is, worshippers of state power and centralized government? In general, the far right in Europe is statist, anti-capitalist, anti-semitic, anti-American and nationalist. The left is statist, anti-capitalist, anti-semitic, anti-American and internationalist. The pro-Israeli “right” that I know is also pro-free market, often classically liberal and not violent.
First, I challenge your facile characterization of this murderer as a “lunatic” and a “madman”. The fact that you do not understand or agree with his thoughts and behavior does not render them mad, any more than that the phase of the moon was a likely factor in this tragedy. His mind and actions are clearly and unequivocally evil, but the structure and the deliberation of his atrocity implies a very calculated, contemplative and malevolent strategy, not characteristic of a disorganized mind.
The bombing was a straightforward attack, probably enabled by his access to nitrates as fertilizer, which he had as a farm worker. The real indicator of his diabolical cleverness is his attack on the island, using the bombing and a police uniform as a ploy to gain armed access, in order to slaughter the youthful offspring of the leaders and the ranking followers of the political faction he detested. The earlier bombing, as well as the isolation of the island, provided him with an extraordinary time window, during which first responders were distracted and pre-occupied, in fact almost unresponsive.
Your description of the Norwegian culture, and its bland acceptance of the evil of violent extremism and the malignant rhetoric of its Muslims, clearly explains the quality of an environment that could nurture any and all forms of evil, and permit the growth of a hideous counter-hatred, as he expressed in his condemnation of the multiculturalism than enabled not only Islamic hatred, but his own. The sheep became happily accepting of the wolves basking quietly amongst them, whilst the sheepdogs were carefully defanged or put to sleep.
And finally, I am truly baffled by the body-count he achieved on that island. Presumably he was armed with handguns (reportedly he had two), and was able to kill up to 100 victims — there has been no report of the number wounded. This would require several reloads, during which he would have been vulnerable to counter-attack, with rocks, sticks, clubs and possibly knives. How he was able to methodically murder so many is so far unexplained and utterly unfathomable.
And just imagine the likely altered outcome, had but one or two lawful citizens been carrying their own guns, with the mindset to defend (i.e., sheepdogs) those innocents, against the evil that was stalking them.
According to eyewitness accounts, he was carrying a bag full of guns which included one or two handguns but he also had heavier weapons including an “assault rifle” which is what he used for most of his killing.
Something I have not heard yet is how he came to acquire such weapons in a country where it is apparently very difficult to get them – even the police there don’t carry guns routinely – and how he became proficient in their use without anyone noticing.
I’m also curious to know whether he is or was a police officer or served with the military at some point. Those would be ways he could get the necessary training and maybe even the weapons themselves.
He probably would have done his compulsory military service.
Wrong.
Correct.
Just because this guy recognized that Jihadism is warped does not make him just a lunatic.
A non-lunatic writes and makes speeches to convince others. A lunatic opens fire.
Because Norway has very strong hate speech codes, you may be in trouble in this case. Be careful.
I am sad for those who died. But sadder still for those who will exploit this tragedy for political gain. They are the evil ones. The lunatic is merely a lunatic.
What is most troubling is the very poor response by the Norwegian security forces.
In the US we would have a SWAT team on site in 10- 15 minutes at most– by helicopter
Why was there no security or medics at the camp?
How did he get on the ferry with long and short guns without a security check?
The murderer went on shooting for 90 minutes and it took the police 90 minutes to get to the scene–90 minutes
–that is truly pathetic.
Be fair, there are lots of areas in the US where a SWAT team wouldn´t show up within an hour or two. And Norway is a comparatively peaceful place. You never expect the unexpected, just as we didn´t expect guys with box cutters to kill 3000 people. In the end, the government cannot always protect you. Isn´t that why we have a 2nd amendment?
All I had to do was read this:
“Not only has it lost almost one hundred people to a senseless rampage, but legitimate criticism of Islam has been profoundly discredited by association with a murderous lunatic”
No. Criticism of islam is in no way discredited. If you mean to say that those who report such stories have a hook to use in selling more of the tolerance meme, sure. By your own phraseology, your position is one of weakness and invites its own scorn. You’ve written what you’ve written and there is no sense or respect in wringing your hands over the truth of your words.
“… my first thought, of course, was that it was a jihadist attack. But it wasn’t: it was a right-wing lunatic. ”
Bruce Bawer – I’m a big fan, mainly due to your relentless anti-jihad efforts, but you also hail from the Left, and dare I say, somewhat the more extreme Left by American standards. Those who are familiar with your history know this to be true. In any event, may I suggest that the label “right-wing” coming from an expat such as yourself or most Europeans, is a hollow temr.
Frankly, anyone to the right of Che or Fidel is condsidered to be a “right-winger” by Euro standards.
So I’d like to suggest that while you write so eloquently about the twin tragedies the West just suffered by this heinous attack by this maniac, you yourself should not supply additional fuel to the distortions and propaganda of the Left by ascribing the term right-wing to the actions of this maniac?
As monstrous as it may sound, the Left has been waiting for this man eagerly. They tried to attach the “right-wing” moniker to Abby Gifford’s shooter, to the VA tech shooter, and others as well, but the facts didn’t support their putrid thesis. Don’t play the West-loathing West’s game or help them lie in any way.
So in the west the media and politicians are critical of attempts to link Islam with terrorism but they are happy to make generalizations about the same if the perpetrator is right wing and/or Christian. What an effing joke.
This disagreement on the whole left wing/right wing issue vis-a-vis the killer is a loser for Conservatives. The killer is a former dues paying member of a self proclaimed right wing party. He was anti-jihadist and anti-multicultural in his posts-the ‘twin towers’ of liberalism. He also called for cooperation with conservatives to achieve his political objectives.
Clearly this animal is a creature of the right wing.
However Conservatives do not have to justify or defend this ideologically congruent association with evil. Certainly it is a tangible association but it is also wholly inadvertent. We have no collective responsibility to another man’s use or misuse of ideology any more than we answer for another man’s actions because they share our race or gender. The argument is specious and should be challenged fiercely.
“he killer is a former dues paying member of a self proclaimed right wing party.”
The Progress Party, “right-wing?” Please. The PP is a center-libertarian or classical-liberal party almost identical in its positions to the German Free Democrats- a party so mainstream that they have been a member of every governing coalition since the Bundesrepublik was founded. The PP is currently the second-largest in the Norwegian parliament- so stop trying to marginalize them as a bunch of Hitlerite wackos.
Again: the Left is relentless in labeling “right-wing” any group that doesn’t overtly wave the Red Banner.
This ‘terrorist’ waged war against a government that is complicit with the Islamification of his country. Before Islamification can be stopped, the government that aids and abets Islamification must be stopped.
Interesting comment. Um. Mind if I ask you if you consider yourself a supporter of attacks on governments you deem complicit in the jihadist movement? And if so, why?
I believe in the principles set forth in the Declaration of Independence, which happens to be a reasoned discourse on the subject of taken up arms against one’s government. Jihad is the ‘holy’ war to subjugate all humanity to a totalitarian psychopathy called Islam. Any dhimmi government that helps Jihad is an enemy of free people.
“I believe in the principles set forth in the Declaration of Independence, which happens to be a reasoned discourse on the subject of taken up arms against one’s government.
If you’re suggesting that slaughtering 80 kids in cold blood is anything like what the Founding Fathers had in mind, then quite frankly you’re out of your tree.
I think the founding fathers did not have the problem of Jihad and Marxism to grapple with, nor did they have the issues of abortion and gay marriage. But their principles and reasons are timeless.
And if I want to lament over the slaughter of innocents, I’ll go down and dig through the dumpster at the local, federally, taxpayer subsidized, Planned Parenthood ‘clinic’. There’s sure to be something there about which I can be holier than thou.
Sounds like Patrick of Atlantis is another mass murdering wannabe. That comes across perfectly clear. He even justifies killing children in his own twisted way.
The liberal MSM is referring to Breivik as “far-right Christian”, and call “Progress Party” right-wing when Wikipedia correctly notes they are classic liberal /libertarian.
Have you ever heard the MSM refer to “far-right Muslim terrorists”? All Islamists are right-wing, but lefties love the.
What happened to Bruce Bawer’s other article and all of the comments? They all seem to have disappeared …
Unfortunately, it seems to me that the Norwegian “authorities’” joy and relief at finding that Anders Behring Breivik is not a Muslim terrorist lets them and the leftist, socialist politicians continue the charade that all cultures are equal.
Allowing the portrayal of Behring Breivik as a “Christian” and a “conservative” — “a Christian fundamentalist” (who likes watching Dexter and True Blood and playing Warcraft?) — means that no Muslims will be offended. How convenient for the chattering classes.
How inconvenient, even dangerous, for the citizens of Norway. To think that a blue-eyed, blond-haired ethnic Norwegian Norwegian is likely to be the only fall-guy for an evil scheme which seems unlikely to have been perpetrated by just one person seems obscene. I’m with topnife: How could one man kill so many people in one day? It defies logic.
Something’s rotten in the state of Norway.
Breivik is a very disturbing case. You read what he wrote and you realize a lot of it could be informed by things said by writers Bruce Bawer or Mark Steyn or many others. And there are things that sound like stuff a lot of conservatives including myself might agree with. For sure, his views are a synthesis that may have formed rather uniquely in his own mind and there’s obviously something seriously wrong with his head, but we can find more than just traces of conservatism and classical liberalism in his thoughts.
The political opponent is not ignorant of that fact and has already begun to use this event against conservatives (and libertarians) in Europe. Breivik did a lot of damage to the cause of men like Bawer and one commenter might be right in advising Bawer to leave Norway. A wave of prohibitions would not surprise me, the climate is definitely going to get rougher for the Right in Europe.
At the same time, it’s probably not the time to be meek. The IRA has killed scores of innocents, yet it has never stopped peaceful Irish nationalists from working peacefully for Irish unification. Communism has killed millions yet it never stopped reformist socialists advocating for the same outcomes, merely using different and more legitimate means. We condemn the acts of violence, but we can’t just abandon your own views because some of them may also be shared by misled, crazy or downright evil people committed to violence.
When you let the alligator sleep with the children, why will you be surprised to find the children eaten?
Islam is an international criminal conspiracy to overthrow all governments by artifice and force, and control the entire world. Posturing Islam as a valid religion is made absurd by the Koran itself, as well as by its violent history, continuing down to the present moment.
Dubya lied, deliberately, when he called Islam “a great religion”. Islam is theological feces and its Koran has no value except in an outhouse.
Islamic leaders all over the world have repeatedly announced their intentions to destroy both Israel and America; yet many want to pretend they have not done so. We must criminalize and stamp out Islam and its Mafia-like methodologies.
“But legitimate criticism of Islam, which remains a very real threat to freedom in Norway and the West, has been profoundly discredited by association with this murderous lunatic.”
Really? Spoken like a true coward. What is the solution then? Flood Europe with more Muslims just to prove how “tolerant” Europeans are? Did it ever occur to those in power that they are the ones driving people around the bend, with their insane policies, insane politics, and the destruction of what many people hold dear? Over the years in America we have watched the left use episodes like this to shove more of the same down people’s throats and those victims too eager to prove they are not what they media say they are. It becomes a vicious circle. Like the left blamed the right wing for Giffords shooting, perhaps it is time to blame the LEFT for creating the conditions that this lunatic felt the need to take into his own hands. When you set about to squeeze people beyond their endurance, just what the hell do you expect them to do? This is the fault of the international left. And that is the true narrative.
You said exactly what I was thinking. We have the “Norwegian condition” in this country. When a government bends over backward to appease a declared enemy, it sets this chain of events in motion.
Yes, I’m afraid that Norway, and other European countries, are commiting cultural suicide by their appeasement.
Does anyone know what type of youth camp the nut attacked? Was it Jewish children? How about where he got those weapons? Did he make the nitrate bomb from a recipe off the Internet?
Remember McVeigh did not make the bomb in Oklahoma. His smart partner Nicholas went to the Philippines to learn bomb making for Ramsey Yousof the moon god worshiper behind the first World Trade Center bombing back in 94.
I was the youth organization of Norway’s labour party.
I woke up this morning thinking about the camp massacre and wondering, where were the grown ups?
This scenario at the camp is some kind of metaphor for what’s happening in the West: Increasingly, there aren’t any grown ups in charge.
Why were these teenagers left to fend for themselves? Why were there no strong men/women protecting them — or at least finding help? Why was the response by security forces so slow? Why did so many teenagers die?
Increasingly, in the Leftosphere, young people are asked to be the adults while the “adults” indulge their juvenile fantasies
“In any case I’ve never sought to serve any ideological establishment in my writings, only to express my own sense of things – which includes reserving the right to criticize undemocratic tendencies on both the right and the left. From time to time this apparent want of ideological purity has caused confusion or even indignation among readers who expect one to fit into a neat right-or-left dichotomy. So be it. As far as I am concerned, the left-right dichotomy has become meaningless anyway. Read A Place at the Table and Stealing Jesus and While Europe Slept and Surrender one after the other and you will see that all four books are motivated by a dedication to individual identity and individual freedom and an opposition to groupthink, oppression, tyranny.” Bruce Bawer
You would be surprised how difficult it is to do that at PJ for someone center-left……. evolution is often questioned….
I posted your quote above at the first PJ thread regarding the terror attack. I can relate to your words and I understand them now in regard to the political struggle within the West.. The spell will be broken soon enough as reality will continue towards conflict regardless of partisan illusions.
Yes, many had noticed the emerging activities of al-Islam and the string of terror attacks lately. Every Intel expert thought the same thing in that hour, especially after al-Islam took credit quickly for the bombing. And you could see the narrative chaos in motion right there in the comment thread: http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/07/22/bomb-rocks-oslo-norway-at-least-two-killed-in-attack-on-government-building/
You know how many Iraqis have been slaughtered by AQ and al-Islam Victor? Do you even know the atrocities in Sudan? Can you comprehend a young Taliban boy beheading a prisoner? Now can you count all the “right-wing” attacks in the West on one hand as you count how many Assad kills this weekend? What? Do Muslim slaughters not count to you? I’m waiting for you again to link this all to Israel. Turn Lieberman into the devil as you have elsewhere to divert an author’s article and the following comments? Never forget Oslo when you never uttered those words about any of the myriad facts laid before you on various blogs? How quickly you have forgotten 9/11 or the countess things since then drawn in our blood and the blood of innocent <uslims slaughtered by extremists. Now tie Israel into that, spout about Turkey and tell us what America's Fundamental Interests are.
Victor you are a troll and Pajamas Media is going to pull your plug. YOU are what Bruce is talking about. Michale Totten, Barry Rubin, Bryan Preston, you are something, aren't you?
The question is what.
WHO
PAYS
YOU?
M
Get more psychiatric help and your usual medication–increase the dose –or consider electroshock therapy
Perhaps I missed it but I believe you owe Fjordman, Pamela Geller (Atlas Shrugged) & Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch an apology for perpetuating Charles Johnson’s libelous smear he launched on his sleazy site mindless green footballs.
If you can not apologize after being proven to be so horribly wrong, you sir are in fact a troll of the highest order.
I don’t know if I follow the logic…..
The shooter had an organic farm producing melons.
That proves that all people who are involved with organic produce are dangerous extremist nutjobs?
White nationalism and an admiration for neo-fascism is a bit different than organic farming, though.
“White nationalism and an admiration for neo-fascism….”
You obviously have not read anything he has written, have you?
Or does questioning multiculturalism and islam now means you are a white nationalist and neo-fascist?
Sarcozy and Merkel will be surprised.
I believe Hitler was an organic food aficionado and an environmentalist.
Do some reading.
Actually, he showed the greatest respect for radical Muslims by adopting their main tactic: mindless and futile terrorism.
I will not even pretend to know what the long term consequences of these murders will be in Norway but it seems to me elites in Europe are fast approaching a situation where the public or at least a significant chunk of it is getting fed up with Muslim immigration. The elites are afraid of the Muslims they do have whether they admit it or not, too PC and too proud to back off their policies and now faced with rightwing violent reaction.
this shooter may be evil but he obviously is not crazy in the “Black dog told me to do it kind of way” indeed he clearly has a political agenda he is wants to put on the table and is prepared to do 21 years, the max jail sentence he can get barring an ex-post facto change in the laws. Of course at the rate Norwegian demographics are going in 21 years it will have a Muslim PM, sharia laws, and a state executioner with a big scimitar.
here in the USA 146 years after the last shots were fired in the American Civil War (or as some of my Southern friends refer to it The War of Northern Aggression) we are still trying to figure out what to make of John Brown and his mouldering body.
I do hope that the Norwegians are broadminded enough to recognize that, just because Sarah Palin motivated this shooter, is no reason to vote against awarding the Lord Obama his next Nobel Peace Prize.
I agree with a few posters here, that the Norwegian elites will use this as an excuse to clamp down on legitimate criticisms of Islam as hate speech and incitement to violence. There is a high chance of a witch hunt now at the highest levels of govt officialdom (and media support), they will be baying for blood, the equivalent of some kind of McCarthyite commission, but from the Left. It could get very bad for Bawer, he could be dragged before this possible commission of inquiry, and the establishment could release all their fury on him. Who knows what charges they could fabricate? However if Bawer runs, a lot of the Leftists and their Islamist allies would see this as a vindication of Bawer’s ‘guilt by association’.
It’s just got a lot tougher for the decent anti-jihadist movement in Norway from now on, and of course it’s always been tough! I think they could well shut you guys down completely. Bawer has no easy choices to make.
We still do not have the story of why it took almost 2 hours for security to deal with this murderer.
I saw one press conference with the acting chief of the Oslo Police in which he was asked why it took so long for police to get to the island, which is apparently only 20 minutes from Oslo. He said they had trouble getting a boat. I find that mind-boggling. Surely the police could easily commandeer a boat from anyone they liked. And who would resist lending their boat to the police for the purpose of stopping a mass slaughter?
–
I’ve seen TWO different men both described as the acting chief of police and I’m curious what that’s all about. I don’t remember either name precisely but one was close to “Roger Andreson” and the other one had the initials SS. How does a police force have TWO acting chiefs? And where is the actual chief?
I wonder if this has anything to do with the delay in getting the police to the island to stop the shooter. Maybe this was literally a case of too many Chiefs and not enough Indians? I can picture one chief insisting that a boat was the best way to go while the other lobbied to arrange helicopters.
Based on what I’ve read so far, the killer believes that the progressive left is engaged in a campaign of national and cultural annihilation through it’s immigration policies. The state has probably compounded matters by making it a virtual – and in some cases a literal – crime to complain about it. A veritable witch’s brew for domestic terrorism. But how one goes from there to mass slaughter is pure raving incomprehensible lunacy. My heart truly aches for the parents of these children.
Best wishes to you, Mr. Bawer. You’re in the eye of the hurricane now.
1. Nothing I have read so far indicates this man is a Christian — that is, a believer or a religious person. Indeed, his actions show he is the opposite of a Christian.
2. A crackdown to control “hate speech” would only exacerabate the situation. Onerous government “politically correct” restrictions on society (as in most of Europe) have created a stultifying environment that breeds exteme behavior. A person who feels he has no voice and no choice is a dangerous, frustrated person. What did the Germans do as a result of the restrictions of the Treaty of Versailles? Blam!
“Nothing I have read so far indicates this man is a Christian — that is, a believer or a religious person.”
From skimming his Manifesto and watching his video, it appears that being a Freemason is a much more significant “belief system” for him than any kind of Christianity.
Freemasons aren’t Christians.
See: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2018148/Anders-Behring-Breivik-posted-YouTube-video-hours-Norway-terror-attacks.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
Check out this timely story the BBC was kind enough to publish, today:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14265952
In 2009 a US Army major serving at the Fort Hood military base in Texas opened fire on fellow soldiers, killing 13 people and injuring many more. It is not clear what motivated the attacker but some reports said the gunman, a US-born Muslim, was unhappy about being sent to Iraq or Afghanistan.
Really? It’s not clear? And by “some reports”, is the BBC referring to its own painfully politically-correct articles, by any chance? Because, I honestly doubt I could find anyone here in the United States who believes this terrorist son of a bitch went on his rampage because he was “unhappy” abut being sent to Afghanistan or Iraq. And note how this little section was tacked onto an article about a husband killing his wife and other family members during some kind of domestic dispute, as if they are somehow related? Maybe the jihadi was just upset about his girlfriend breaking up with him or something? It’s potentially possible, isn’t it?
And yet, right next to this article on the BBC website they have several where they express no such doubt about what happened in Norway just *yesterday*.
Well, it’s simple Graig.
Every attack by de radical left or Islamists is either a ‘right-wing conspiracy” (9/11) or is caused by the policies of a “right-wing” government.
The train bombings in Milan were the fault of the Spanish government having Soldiers in Afghanistan. So the attack was caused by government policy and they pulled the soldiers out.
The violent reaction to the publishing of the Mohammed cartoons was excused as they were provoked by the western policy of free speech. So the government decided to limit the freedom of speech.
“Right wing” (Everything right of Chavez is now considered “right wing”) “conservative policies cause these people to behave violently. The attacks are just the cause of wrong policies of the respective “right-wing” countries such as the UK and the US who are at fault.
The problem with the attack in Norway is that Norway is a socialist (“left-wing”) country.
So here the policies (They are the ‘correct’ ones.) cannot be blamed so it is the fault of… the “right-wing” conservatives.
So you see, all violence from whatever direction is always the fault of the “right-wing” conservatives.
Quite simple isn’t it?
That is the advantage of being a Socialist\Marxist, you are always right.
a christian fundamentalist on a killing spree and who is to blamed for…..Islamic totalitarianism ! huh !
“It wasn’t jihad. It was a meaningless killing spree by a madman, like the ones at Columbine and Virginia Tech.”
You can read, can you?
A case of projection bias?
Andy: reading and reading between da lines makes da entire difference. what is da point of discussing islamic fundamentalists and Islimization of Norway when dis is nt da point of debate here. this is exactly how minds are being molded to link Islam and terrorism.
This article sounded more like …ok it wasnt a jihadist BUT IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ! and even if it wasnt this time…it will be soon !
Of course there is no link between islam and violence Sara.
Of course it is not true that there have been more than 17.000 violent attacks by muslims in the last 10 years, it is all ‘right wing’ zionist propaganda.
It’s those christian fundamentalists you need to look out for.
its not ALL zionist propaganda. People claiming to be muslims and not having a clue of islam definitely exist. my point is dat generalization without even having anything to do with the current situation is nt only malicious bt also can b a cause of further discontentment.
Like, Sara, there haven’t been any jihadist attacks in the West in the past few 20 years — but there’s been plenty of Christian fundamentalists on the rampage all over the world? Uh huh.
We don’t know if Breivik was a “Christian” “conservative” or “fundamentalist”: His Facebook page seems to have been tampered with in the hours just after his rampage. His original one seems not to have mentioned the Christian and conservative tags. So, I wonder how they got there?
Lots of things don’t add up.
However Breivik is packaged, the Muslim problem in Norway is not going to go away. Somehow, the Norwegian authorities/chattering classes seem to think that blaming Breivik’s “Christian conservatism,” which isn’t even established as a fact, for this rampage will result in quiet on the Muslim street in Norway. I’m afraid they’re fools and useful idiots. Norway has a huge problem with their increasingly militant and violent Muslim population. Blaming white, Norwegian ethnic, Breivik alone for this blood bath — and, by association (which isn’t proven), all white, Norwegian ethnic, Christian conservatives, is a fool’s game and will not solve their much larger problem of Muslims who refuse to assimilate and, instead, wish to impose Shari’a Law on their host country.
He was an obsessed lunatic. he cud have been as obsessed about madona as he was about christianity and islimazation of norway !
Europe’s Extreme Righteous
(Page 2 of 3)
During their trip, the Europeans drove through Palestinian villages in a bulletproof bus to meet Jewish settlers in the desolate West Bank outpost of Har Bracha, set on a windswept mountain bluff with views into Jordan. While there, they vowed that the settlements were necessary to defend Israel against its Arab enemies.
As if to prove his readiness to defend the Holy Land, Strache donned camouflage war paint and an Israeli Defense Forces combat jacket for a picture with paratroopers of the 101st “Cobra” Battalion on their base near the Gaza Strip. (The last photo of Strache in military regalia became a minor scandal in Austria when it surfaced in 2008. The picture showed him with leading Austrian neo-Nazis and Holocaust deniers, and was apparently taken around 1990 when Strache was reportedly active in the Viking Youth, an illegal neo-Nazi group.) The history of the Sweden Democrats is equally controversial. Until 1995 the party was headed by Anders Klarström, who had previously belonged to the openly fascist Nordic Reich Party. Convicted in 1986 for illegal possession of firearms and death threats against a Jewish actor, whom he called a “Jew pig” and threatened to burn, Klarström was one of dozens of officials and members purged by the party in the 1990s. Still, Lena Posner-Körösi, president of the Official Council of Jewish Communities in Sweden, describes the Sweden Democrats as a “neo-Nazi party.”
That some of the signatories to the Jerusalem Declaration have histories of extremism doesn’t bother Nissim Zeev, a member of the Knesset who met with the visiting Europeans. “At the end of the day, what’s important is their attitude—the fact they really love Israel,” says Zeev, who represents Shas, an Orthodox right-wing party.
Strache himself got the ultimate blessing by Ayoob Kara, a deputy minister and member of the ruling Likud Party, who told Austrian reporters that he’d read the Freedom Party’s platform and thought it was “kosher.” (Kara himself is Druze and therefore doesn’t adhere to Jewish dietary law.) In Kara’s judgment, Likud and the Freedom Party could work together. “Israel needs friends,” he said. “And Strache might be the next Austrian chancellor.”
For the European politicians, this is a useful alliance, too: many find that support for Israel dovetails nicely with an anti-Islam platform. While anti-Muslim sentiments are wide-spread (more than 50 percent of Germans recently polled said they could imagine voting for an anti-Islamic party), anti-Semitism is no longer considered an acceptable part of political discourse, says Cas Mudde, an expert on European populism at DePauw University. In an interview before his death in a 2008 car crash, Jörg Haider, the longtime leader of the Austrian Freedom Party and Strache’s predecessor, talked of Strache’s plans to use Israel to make the party more respectable. “If the Jews accept us, then we won’t have a problem,” Haider said Strache told him. Today, polls show support for Strache at a record 25 percent. Among Austrians under 30, the Freedom Party polls 42 percent.
Europe’s right-wing parties have “realized, whoops, we’ve been wrong about Israel and the Jews in the past,” says the Sweden Democrats’ Ekeroth, adding that their newfound love for Israel isn’t surprising. “It’s all about Islam,” he says. “You can’t be against the Islamization of Europe, and, at the same time, support the Arabs in the Israel-Palestinian conflict.” Ekeroth, who is himself Jewish and says he runs “the anti-Islam activities” of his party, believes that “Jews who fight us instead of their real enemy are digging their own graves.”
Europe’s Extreme Righteous
Far-right European politicians find love—and common cause—in Israel.
Activists and sympathizers of the nationalist “64 Counties Youth Movement” parade as they march together to the Slovakian, Serbian and Romanian embassies with members of controversial extreme right wing “Magyar Garda,” or Hungarian guard, in Budapest on June 13, 2009 during their demonstration to commemorate the 89th anniversary of the WWI’s closing treaty.
To the casual observer, the visiting Europeans at Yad Vashem, Israel’s Holocaust memorial in the hills above Jerusalem, looked like any other foreign delegation. In the Garden of the Righteous Among Nations, where Gentiles who protected Jews are honored, they laid a wreath and posed for a photo before signing the visitors’ book with the solemn promise: “We will want to make sure that ‘never again’ really means never again.”
But these were no ordinary travelers with Zionist sympathies. Rather, on this trip to Israel were a Belgian politician known for his contacts with SS veterans, an Austrian with neo-Nazi ties, and a Swede whose political party has deep roots in Swedish fascism—unlikely visitors to pay their respects at Yad Vashem, perhaps, unless one considers the political currents in Israel and Europe, and the adage that one’s enemy’s enemy is one’s friend.
Only a few years ago, many of Europe’s far-right politicians were openly anti-Semitic. Now some of the same populist parties are embracing Israel to unite against what they perceive to be a common threat.
Over the past few years, Europe’s right-wing political leaders have tapped into rising worries over immigration from Islamic countries to predominantly secular and Christian Europe, where the number of Muslims has grown from 29.6 million in 1990 to 44.1 million in 2010, or up to 10 percent of the population in countries such as France. Geert Wilders, an anti-Islam firebrand whose Party for Freedom last July gained a record 24 seats in the Netherlands’ Parliament, likens the Quran to Hitler’s Mein Kampf and has called Muhammad a “devil” spreading a “fascist ideology,” and has vowed to stop Muslim immigration. In Switzerland, 57 percent of voters banned the construction of minarets in a popular referendum in late 2009. In poll after poll, large majorities of Europeans say they worry about the spread of Islam and that Muslims have not properly integrated.
Invited by a right-wing Israeli businessman named Chaim Muehlstein, the December visitors did not compose an official delegation. “Jesus Christ,” fumed a government spokesman anonymously when asked about the visit; Yad Vashem spokeswoman Estee Yaari cringed when NEWSWEEK asked her about the group. “Millions come here every year, and I definitely didn’t meet these people,” she said.
But members of the Knesset did meet with the group, which signed a “Jerusalem Declaration” guaranteeing Israel’s right to defend itself against terror. “We stand at the vanguard in the fight for the Western, democratic community” against the “totalitarian threat” of “fundamentalist Islam,” says the document, which was signed by members of the group that included Heinz-Christian Strache, head of the Austrian Freedom Party; Filip Dewinter, head of Belgium’s ultranationalist Vlaams Belang; René Stadtkewitz, founder of the German Freedom Party; and Kent Ekeroth, the international secretary for the Sweden Democrats, a populist anti-immigration party.
(Page 2 of 3)
During their trip, the Europeans drove through Palestinian villages in a bulletproof bus to meet Jewish settlers in the desolate West Bank outpost of Har Bracha, set on a windswept mountain bluff with views into Jordan. While there, they vowed that the settlements were necessary to defend Israel against its Arab enemies.
As if to prove his readiness to defend the Holy Land, Strache donned camouflage war paint and an Israeli Defense Forces combat jacket for a picture with paratroopers of the 101st “Cobra” Battalion on their base near the Gaza Strip. (The last photo of Strache in military regalia became a minor scandal in Austria when it surfaced in 2008. The picture showed him with leading Austrian neo-Nazis and Holocaust deniers, and was apparently taken around 1990 when Strache was reportedly active in the Viking Youth, an illegal neo-Nazi group.) The history of the Sweden Democrats is equally controversial. Until 1995 the party was headed by Anders Klarström, who had previously belonged to the openly fascist Nordic Reich Party. Convicted in 1986 for illegal possession of firearms and death threats against a Jewish actor, whom he called a “Jew pig” and threatened to burn, Klarström was one of dozens of officials and members purged by the party in the 1990s. Still, Lena Posner-Körösi, president of the Official Council of Jewish Communities in Sweden, describes the Sweden Democrats as a “neo-Nazi party.”
That some of the signatories to the Jerusalem Declaration have histories of extremism doesn’t bother Nissim Zeev, a member of the Knesset who met with the visiting Europeans. “At the end of the day, what’s important is their attitude—the fact they really love Israel,” says Zeev, who represents Shas, an Orthodox right-wing party.
Strache himself got the ultimate blessing by Ayoob Kara, a deputy minister and member of the ruling Likud Party, who told Austrian reporters that he’d read the Freedom Party’s platform and thought it was “kosher.” (Kara himself is Druze and therefore doesn’t adhere to Jewish dietary law.) In Kara’s judgment, Likud and the Freedom Party could work together. “Israel needs friends,” he said. “And Strache might be the next Austrian chancellor.”
For the European politicians, this is a useful alliance, too: many find that support for Israel dovetails nicely with an anti-Islam platform. While anti-Muslim sentiments are wide-spread (more than 50 percent of Germans recently polled said they could imagine voting for an anti-Islamic party), anti-Semitism is no longer considered an acceptable part of political discourse, says Cas Mudde, an expert on European populism at DePauw University. In an interview before his death in a 2008 car crash, Jörg Haider, the longtime leader of the Austrian Freedom Party and Strache’s predecessor, talked of Strache’s plans to use Israel to make the party more respectable. “If the Jews accept us, then we won’t have a problem,” Haider said Strache told him. Today, polls show support for Strache at a record 25 percent. Among Austrians under 30, the Freedom Party polls 42 percent.
Europe’s right-wing parties have “realized, whoops, we’ve been wrong about Israel and the Jews in the past,” says the Sweden Democrats’ Ekeroth, adding that their newfound love for Israel isn’t surprising. “It’s all about Islam,” he says. “You can’t be against the Islamization of Europe, and, at the same time, support the Arabs in the Israel-Palestinian conflict.” Ekeroth, who is himself Jewish and says he runs “the anti-Islam activities” of his party, believes that “Jews who fight us instead of their real enemy are digging their own graves.”
Europe’s Extreme Righteous
(Page 3 of 3)
The growing antipathy toward Muslims in Europe is spurred on by organizations such as Stop the Islamization of Europe, which has chapters in 11 countries, and the English Defence League, a growing protest movement that regularly sends hundreds of rampaging demonstrators into Muslim neighborhoods in British cities. These and countless other, smaller groups regularly protest mosque construction and Sharia, the Quranic code that some European Muslim communities have tried to enforce.
On the Web, one of the anti-Islam movement’s countless outposts is called Reconquista Europe, named after the centuries-long struggle to drive Islam out of Spain that ended with the mass expulsion of Muslims and Jews in 1492. Strache, too, likes to play on history. In campaign literature, he is depicted in knight’s armor, promising a hot sausage to a blond, slingshot-wielding Austrian boy if he “hits that mustafa.” Kara Mustafa commanded the Muslim armies in the 1683 siege of Vienna—but, in today’s Austria, “mustafa” is more common as a derogatory epithet for any ethnic Turk.
Perhaps it was also his sense of humor—or history—that propelled Strache to wear what he did at Yad Vashem. Instead of covering his head with a kippah as a gesture of respect at the Hall of Remembrance, where the ashes of Holocaust victims are kept, Strache wore a Biertönnchen—the red, blue, and black cap that identifies him as a lifelong member of Vandalia, a right-wing student fraternity long associated with Pan-German nationalism and anti-Semitism. Stadtkewitz, the German Freedom Party founder who was also part of the tour, says Strache was playing to Austrian TV cameras along for the ride. “It was a way for him to tell his followers, ‘Hey, look, this isn’t what it looks like,’?” he says.
Although the intent of the trip was to forge bonds, some friendships weren’t made in the Holy Land.
Stadtkewitz, who founded his Freedom Party in October after he got kicked out of the mainstream Christian Democrats for inviting Geert Wilders to give a speech in Berlin, says he thought his Austrian and Belgian travelmates took a step too far to the right.
With Joanna Chen in Jerusalem
Do us all a favour.
Next time…..
1. Stay on topic.
2. Paste a shortcut.
This is a Newsweek article
http://www.newsweek.com/2011/02/27/europe-s-extreme-righteous.html
Yep, the magazine that was sold for a dollar and was owned by the Washington Post and whose editor confessed to bias (surprise).
Just having a quick look at it I already spotted a factual mistake and the article is full off half-truths, omissions and has no links to sources.
You have to do better than this.
The fact that right wing euro thrash is hanging out with right wing Zionists is very topical indeed. That is the sht finds another sht in the shthole if you know what I mean. Are you wearing your brain today?
And when will you be pasting excerpts from “The Elders of Zion” on this site?
no can do.. what I post is kosher. obviously you are one of them elders of zion who hang out with the euro thrash.
Thanks so much for posting this (overlong) classic example of the MSM’s efforts to demonize conservatives as “exteremists,” “fascists” and “neo-Nazis.”
The telling sentence where truth slips through- a glimpse of political reality in modern PC Europe- is here: “Stadtkewitz, who founded his Freedom Party in October after he got kicked out of the mainstream Christian Democrats for inviting Geert Wilders to give a speech in Berlin”
….”Not only has it lost almost one hundred people, including dozens of young people, in a senseless rampage of violence. But legitimate criticism of Islam, which remains a very real threat to freedom in Norway and the West, has been profoundly discredited by association with this murderous lunatic.”….
How is it that “legitimate criticism” of Islam can be “profoundly discredited” by Oslo?But Islam cannot be by 9/11?(& by every other Islamist attack)
I grow very weary of people who accept the premise of our enemies.
What you had better hope is NOT happening in Europe now is the rise of the right. If this attack was committed by either one or a gang of right-wing extremists, does it mean that the right in Europe has finally had it with the politically correct liberals as well as Muslims? This could either be an isolated incident, or the start of a major civil war in Europe. And if this guy was an right-wing extremist, he will serve as a hero to other sick individuals. The next few months will tell what’s going on in this once peaceful part of the world.
My condolences to Norway on this most horrific of human losses ever
In their history. Bruce you are a sick puppy.
Madness knows no religon, race or creed. In the end, it simply is.
My condolences to the people of Norway.
As for those raging on Bruce, I would remind people how long the peoples of Europe started turning on us like Wolves in their various dailys after 9/11.
I’m glad my family is out of that place.
I think it is important for we on the right to own this monster. Let’s be honest. Much of his concerns are ours. We always rail against the Muslims because they do not own up to their vast numbers of terrorist attacks, brutality, and extremism within their ranks, even among so-called “moderates.” And correctly so. Well, let us follow our own advice. We are not exempt. What it points out to me, is how our opposition to Islamic hegemony and violence, should be based upon Judeo-Christian principles, not on nationalism, or sentimental angst due to the disappearing of your people and culture – simply a more subtle, perhaps less innocuous, but nonetheless parallel repetition of Germany in the 20′s-30′s. Our opposition to Islamization must be based upon the deep conviction of our love for our fellow man, not so much upon love for nation,race or culture. The hatred fomented by Islam and their allies on the Left, is clearly fomenting hatred by those not wishing that they be forced into some Marxist nightmare, or Caliphate horror. Our disgust, revulsion, and anger is justified. Hatred and non-defensive violence is never justified.
It was only a matter of time before some individual or group was bound to go violent in what they would see as their own holy war against home-grown quislings. The surprise is that it took this long.
Yes, the powers that be will crack down even harder against anyone they deem out of step with their anti-semitic brand of multiculturalism. And perhaps they’ll bury opposition even deeper for some time to come. But I believe there is a growing resentment and fear, among many native Norwegians and Europeans in general, of what is now being seen as a genuine threat to their very Western way of life.
The elite in Europe may run things, but like all ruling classes, they’re usually the last to sense the directional shift in the winds of change. And I wouldn’t assume that this act of terrible violence will automatically be a major blow to those struggling to preserve Western culture in Europe. Look what came out of the 9/11 tragedy here in the US–certainly it woke many of us up to the dangers of radical Islam but it also sparked a major campaign of appeasement.
I think there will be lots of introspection within the Norwegian population and the public courtroom trial of the man accused of these horrendous deeds will, if nothing else, keep the multicultural topic front and center for quite awhile.
Bruce, this article makes you sound like a racist. Try this excercise; copy the article into Word, find and replace all mentions of the words Islam and Muslims with Jews, and Jihad with Zionism and read it again.
Norwegians, genetically have more in common, share a higher percentage of genes with Africans and Chinese than do a black labrador retriever and a yellow labrador retriever.
Dan, you do realize that Muslim is not a race, right? Certainly you may disagree with Bruce, paint him as overly prejudiced, or claim that he stereotypes Muslims. But the correct word for your characterization of his post is not “racist.”
This is about culture, religion and ideologies, not race.
“Clearly this animal is a creature of the right wing.”
I could not agree more. I hope the SOB fries in hell. But what Europe considers “right wing” has always been a sick elitist sinkhole of racism, gang corporatism and violence, only exceeded in degrees of sickness by what Europe calls “left wing”, which is a murderous, soul destroying hell on earth installed under the guise of “equality”. So please tell me how this relates to a bunch of decent people who believe the US Constitution and the liberty it sets forth has advanced the human condition more than any other single set of ideas and who simply want the government to adhere to its own founding documents? Because that’s not “right wing”, it is politically right down the middle.
The mental disorder of the left wing elites means that this POS will be used to introduce more draconian hate speech laws, a doubling down on PC and multiculturalism, and jail time for anyone who so much as complains about feeling uncomfortable around Muslims. Meanwhile, the vile, POS shooter will get only 21 years (and don’t tell me about containment…liberals have such sympathy for the devil that even in the US, men sent to prison “for life” for heinous crimes come up for parole all the time, and the victims are long since dead while the murderer is an “older man with medical issues” and gets released).
Norwegians are such hypocrites: Norwegian women are being raped by Muslims (100% of the perpetrators are Muslims) and the elites have blamed, in the past,…”global warming”. Jewish children get slaughtered by jihadists whom the Norwegians embrace and indulge, then blame the Jewish victims for their “provocation”. Their nobel peace prize has become a politicized joke, with awards going to Arabrat, Gore and Obozo. Liberals in the US and Norway love to use any attack with mass casualties to demonize anyone to right of Lenin: when a leftist schizophrenic shot up a Gabby Giffords speech in AZ, suddenly he became a tea partier and Palin enthusiast. Before it was known that he was Muslim, Bloomingidiotberg blamed the attempted Times Square bombing on a conservative “who hates Obamacare.” Now the Oslo bomber and kid-killer is going to be used to destroy any resistance to Islamic extremism. The left has been waiting for their McVeigh moment for years, and has finally got it. You ever notice when when acts of Muslim terror occur, the left always says:
–Islam is a religion of peace
–The terrorists have hijacked a peaceful religion
–Don’t blame Islam for the act of a lone fanatic
–(after 9/11): the Jews did it, it was an inside job, it was payback for US policies.
BUT when McVeigh bombed OKC, the MSM went into an uproar against “Christian fundamentalist terrorists”
when Giffords was shot and others killed by a neo-hippie nut case, suddenly “tea-party/Palin terrorists” were of concern.
One could easily take the liberals’ narrative and shove it back in their faces by saying that their anti-free speech, uber-PC, muslim coddling Quisling policies have caused this tragedy, or, in the words of Obozo’s favorite pastor, about 9/11: “Norways chickens have come home to roost”. But I highly doubt many conservatives or anti-jihadist activist would ever go down that road.
“…and jail time for anyone who so much as complains about feeling uncomfortable around Muslims.
A disproportionate number of hate-crimes against gays in Europe are committed by Muslims; a disporportionate number of sex-crimes against women too… but it may be a hate-crime to even mention this.
I can see the day coming soon when the Muslims’ rock will crush the gay rights & women’s rights scissors.
This is indeed galling: imams and Islamists can spout the vilest homophobic, misogynist, treasonous platitudes from their pie-holes, indulge in Jew hatred that hasn’t been seen since Nazi times, and tell Christian children visiting a mosque in the name of multiculti that they are the spawn of apes and pigs, and will not be so much as made to have their feelings hurt by any critcism. But let a Lutheran pastor decline to perform a gay wedding, or a schoolgirl in England ask to be switched from an assignment with a group of Pakistani kids who were berating her, the entire weight of the PC establishment comes down on you and charges you with hate crimes, thought crimes, hate speech, etc. The leftwing has made a deal with the devil, but don’t expect the devil to behave in the rush to a socialist MC utopia of islamic ascendency.
“The left has been waiting for their McVeigh moment for years, and has finally got it.”
And they never suspected this “thrill up their ‘collective’ leg” would cost THEIR kids their lives.
Using the leftist liberals own usual rationale perhaps if the Norwegians were more fair and less accommodating with the Muslims this unbalanced man would not have taken out his mania against anyone. I guess he must have been angry with their ruling politicals that put up with anything Islamic in Norway since their children were the primary victims.
No doubt every Norwegian is stunned and my heart goes out to them. This is so senseless, like the Breslin massacre that it defies any logic or understanding how any individual can be so full of hate that he can even consider this as being an answer.
The first response of some blog commentators was that ‘Norway had it coming for slights or anti-Muslim aggression’ and I suppose that the lack of guards was in part to emphasize the idea that Muslims were not dangerous, thank you (unless they needed to be). Perhaps if they had less need to have their nose in the air about this point, the Norwegian government would have posted guards who might have been interested to learn who was parking what turned out to be a truck bomb in a perhaps unauthorized location, now walking away and just possibly averted this tragedy. Though they may clamp down on right wing thought, might the Norwegian elite in sorrow, as you suggest, be more willing to tolerate it?
I found this bit of information rather interesting:
“13.26 It appears Breivik stole large chunks of his manifesto from the Unabomber.
While most of the document is acurately sourced, Breivik makes no reference to Ted Kaczynski, who killed three people and injured 23 others during a 20 year long mail bombing spree under the alias Unabomber.
Brevik often copies Kaczynski word for word, only changing the word ‘leftist’ for ‘cultural Marx’.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8655175/Oslo-explosion-live-coverage.html
Brutal, tragic, uncalled for, horrific, but senseless? Looks like a European wake up call to me; or in street logic, what goes around comes around. As reported, the shooter’s target selection and motives were political, to get a “civil war” going, apparently between the ruling multicultural party (representing the multicultural policies that the German Chancellor recently remarked had failed in Germany) and the supporters of traditional European cultural identities and values. In short, the Western shooter wasn’t interested in implementing the Cairo Declaration, the UN’s new toleration code outlawing political cartoons critical of Mohammed and Islam or we’ll burn your cities down–meaning migrants marauding for Mohammed in those European no go zones for Muslims only. So after ten years of Muslims going on rampages killing infidels, usually killing more Muslims than non-Muslims, women and children, for perceived insults to Imperial Islam and its prophet, a lone European finally plays tit for tat, time to tango, and says enough already. Looks to me like the European elites have finally exceeded the limits of their rank files willingness to tolerate the BS. I wonder, could this be the European version of John Brown, Harpers Ferry, circa 1859? John Brown was hanged, Norway makes a capital punishment exception for “war crimes,” which I presume an act of civil war would qualify.
Looks like we have some budding Breiviks.
After watching his video manifesto I think he had two purposes in doing what he did. He got attention for his cause, and he prevented a significant part of the next generation of young multiculturalists in his country from being able to help their cause and from reproducing. A similar event in this country would be to attack an environmentalist or left-wing youth camp. In his book about being a red diaper baby Ron Radosh describes these camps and how Pete Seeger would come and lead camp fire singing.
I think the difference here is that the frustration has better outlets than it might have in a country like Norway, and can be released in constructive ways, whereas in a repressive society like that of Quisling, it is easy to see how frustration and contempt can build to such a point.
Thank God we aren’t Europe.
All these events have a half life in the public psyche. However, the goal of the Islamists to force Norway and all of Europe to face Islam’s three choices that it places before all non-believers (convert, submit or die) doesn’t have a half-life. Liberal (er, now “progressive”) political correctness at dodging these choices cannot make them go away. Islamism is a greater threat to free Europe than Hitler ever was. And yet, Europe does what, whimpers and acquiesces? It looks like Europe would rather commit cultural suicide than offend Islam.
My grandparents sent their children to free Europe from fascism. I am not willing to send my grandchildren to free Europe from Islamic fascism. The present generation of Europeans doesn’t deserve it.
dan: you are so pathetic. here you are calling an out right terrorist a right wing lunetic and then changing the subject how nords treat jews like shit. so from now on call the jihadist a misguided left wing. why do you live here if they hate the ews so much?
Appalling, your examples of Norwegians placating Muslims, including antisemitism, providing for the vile Mullah Krekar, appeasing the even more vile al Qaradawi, the views of Jørn Holme…
You can see, then, that while an Islamic terror attack on Oslo was a possibility, it would’ve been just plain dumb for Islamists to make an enemy of Norway.
Indeed. Norway seems to be moving along quite nicely, slitting its own throat.
Focusing on right wing, domestic terrorism would fit right in with Janet Napolitano’s approach in the US, since she seems more obsessed with homegrown threats than with “man caused disasters” from abroad.
I am very very sorry at this tragedy in Norway.
Please Bruce and the rest of you here, step back and take a look at yourselves. Is hateful contempt for Norway and its policies of tolerance and inclusion the appropriate response here? You make me sick.
Mullah Krekar is a vicious Al Qaeda supporting jihadist who hails from Iraq.
Several years ago, I recall not the exact case, he was found guilty, even by Norwegian standards. According to the article, he has continued to live in Oslo at state expense.
Al-Qaradawi is a vicious violent jihad spewing creep. According to the article, Norwegians went out of their way to placate him over the cartoon furor.
If appeasing such individuals counts as “tolerance and inclusion”, count me out.
“Policies of tolerance and inclusion” my ass. Norway, or at least its ruling establishment, is a PC madhouse, virulently *intolerant* of non-ultraleft opinion, but remarkably accepting of the vilest sort of barbaric hate from their medieval house-guests. And you might have noticed that the camp-conference for Labour Party youth where this occurred was, among other things, a “We hate Israel” rally: official Norwegian government policy. Just last week this same group attempted to prosecute a Member of Parliament for daring to criticize mass immigration.
Norway is about as “tolerant and inclusive” as UC Berkeley.
He is a bona fide terrorist. By killing as many Norwegian social democratic youth as possible, he wants to cut the roots of the tree of multiculturism so to speak. The way he carried out his plan was deliberate; He murdered them one at a time. So it is personal to him. That just shows the depth of his hatred of what he calls Marxist multi culturalists. He does not despise Islam but he despises Muslims. Again his hatred is personal. Just like some of the fascists who post here.
He is a bona fide terrorist. By killing as many Norwegian social democratic youth as possible, he wants to cut the roots of the tree of multiculturism so to speak. The way he carried out his plan was deliberate; He murdered them one at a time. So it is personal to him. That just shows the depth of his hatred of what he calls Marxist multi culturalists. He does not despise Islam but he despises Muslims. Again his hatred is personal. Just like some of the fascists who post here.
Fran. Who is it that is being tolerated and included? What does official and upper-class Norway tolerate about those complaining of Muslim crimes against them? Is it the tolerance of the Jews, of of those who target Jews that you applaud, or lament?
Bawer’s a left-wing nutcase who went to Amsterdam because he figured he’d have it better among the fabled loosey-goosey culture of urban Holland than amongst the right-wing, blue-nose, fundamentalist, cousin-marrying, cowboy Americans. Also, they’re homophobes.
So, off he goes to Holland, to discover that gays have a rough time there because of Muslim gay-bashing. Then he’s off to Norway. Still can’t admit that things might be okay in the US. Wouldn’t be quite quite among his buds.
But he has admitted that appeasement not only isn’t working, it’s pissing off the ordinary folks. Who can’t be fooled forever by something like this. No matter how smarmily sickly-sweet an appeal is made to the exact process that caused this in the first place.
Mister Bawer.
Although I resent the conclusions you draw, your skewed representation of events in Norwegian public life and Norwegian news media, and last but not least your eminently poor timing, I will not resort to the same ad-hominem attacks as some of the first posters have. Rather, I will confront your misrepresentations with fact:
1) Your point about shabby treatment of Jews is poorly made. It is true that Norway’s public has a more critical opinion of Israel’s policies toward the Occupied areas than most European countries (not to mention the U.S.). It is, however, also true that with very few exceptions – the mentioned op-ed by Gaarder being one – this criticism is presented in relation to concrete policies, courses of action and incidents, and rarely mention the term ‘Jew’ at all. Being on the board of the largest Pro-Palestine umbrella organization in Norway, I can personally attest to the care taken in our work to clearly make out the difference between Jews as members of an ethnic and religious group and Israel as a political entity.
Your speculations as to the motives behind a practice which you, in your misrepresentation, have construed are therefore utter nonsense.
2) Mullah Krekar has been repeatedly tried in Norwegian courts. In none of the trials has the evidence presented been sufficient to convict him. For reasons not disclosed to the public, a court has ordered that he be detained in house arrest until he can be repatriated. Norway remains a staunch opponent of the death penalty and – although this position has sadly been undermined by the increasingly hateful anti-immigration debate during the last years – repatriation where this leads to immediate danger to the repatriated’s life or health. To the extent that he enjoys better conditions than most of those who await a repatriation, which for the time being cannot be effectuated, it is a result of the practical problems that have arisen in protecting him against extrajudiciary execution, presumably by political zealots.
3) The charicature case was somewhat more complicated than you portray it as being. It has been thoroughly debated, and I won’t say more about it than that you use your the right, also given under the Norwegian constitution, to paint a rather one-sided picture.
4) The allegations of throwing displays of islamic totalitarianism down the memory hole is probably the worst display of falsehood in your article. You imply, by the term ‘army’ and the ascription of collective motive, that the riots were organized, which they were clearly not. Also, you fail to mention that they occured in the aftermath of demonstrations against Israel’s ongoing operation Cast Lead, which had been broken up by police by rather repressive means. The bulk of the rioters were minors, and a significant proportion of Palestinian descent. These facts do in no way make their wanton aggression defensible, but are nonetheless clearly relevant for those who want to interpret the events.
Regarding the speech by Mohyeldeen Mohammed, you fail to mention that his statements were severely criticized by several public figures, and that he suffered a media barrage so strong that he fled the country shortly after his speech. Several prominent Norwegian Muslims distanced themselves from his statements, and it is impossible to maintain that his sentiments are anywhere near the mainstream i any of Norway’s minority groups.
5) It might not be so in the U.S. political establishment, but elsewhere in the world, it is recognized that the continuation of the Israeli-Palestine peace process is impossible while the Occupied Territories aren’t under one rule. As the Hamas government builds on parliamentary representation which were a result of elections that were part of the now-dead peace process, it is impossible to disregard Hamas as a party to the future of the Occupied Territories. Calling PA President Abbas a terrorist is not only the same as saying there will be no end to occupation, it is actually a negation of the definition of terrorism as the action of agents outside the political establishment.
You also fail to mention that Jonas Gahr Støre not only sat out Ahmadinejad’s speech, but that he promptly entered the stage and severely criticized his speech, thus becoming the only western representative to do so.
6. As to your representation of Holme’s meet with Muslim student representatives, consider this: The statistics on perpetrated terrorist acts in Europe both post- and pre- 9/11 clearly show that islamic terrorism is not the major threat. Friday’s events in Norway only compounds those statistics. As to the ideology that motivates the lesser proportion of terrorists who are muslims, it is just plain wrong to maintain that this is in any way a mainstream ideology based in a worldview shared by large portions of Europe’s muslim populace. On the other hand, the worldview espoused by the mass killer of July 22nd coincides to a frightening degree with that of prominent members of the Progress Party. There is obviously a huge difference between maintaining a chauvinist ideology and using it as a motivation to kill. However, it is an insult to the victims of this tragedy to claim that this was an act of ‘meaningless lunacy’ – the political motivations are clear.
Holme’s assertion that the U.S. is the prime Human Rights violator in the world is also wrong, although conveniently impossible to verify. If it were restated ending with “… in the Western World.”, it would however be quite true, as several U.S. intellectuals, think tanks and organizations have repeatedly stated over the years – information any politically interested American should act on.
Having said this, I would like to make the point that I still welcome intelligently formulated criticism of Islam, and still intend to defend with my life the right to unintelligently formulated criticism of the same – mainly by continuing to maintain an open, tolerant and free society through civil and political action and by refraining from demands of double standard laws aimed at immigrants, ill-informed and panicky prioritizations of political subjects for debate and fighting for humanist values.
You, sir, do also have a distorted perception of reality, but you are thankfully both non-violent and a clear voice against political violence. In this, at least, there is some comfort.
And, you sir, have spouted verbose, hot air that hopefully will loft you soaring…. away, away, away….somewhere, anywhere else, the same as I’ve suggested should hoist others of your ilk.
You’ll probably pop….psssssst!……. at altitude.
My, aren’t we good at staying on topic. Bawer’s no less verbose post actually conveys so many half-truths (a.k.a. lies) that such a long reply is necessary in order to address them all. I don’t think outcries over verbosity count as arguments.
I don’t recall that playing the Nazi card is a valid argument either. Although, by Godwin’s law, this loses the debate for you, I welcome you to expound on your accusations of nazism. An attempt to actually address the many refutations of Bawer’s statements that I made would probably be too much to hope for?
Talking about half-truths (AKA lies)
You lost me in your first point.
Judea and Samaria are not occupied territories. By using this term you purposefully show your political bias and state a half-truth. The politically neutral (And legally correct) term is disputed territories. There is only one occupied territory and that is the Golan Heights.
And yes, it is important. I am sick of people using language as a political tool.
I am so gratified to learn that intellectuals throughout the world so graciously manage to draw a distinction between Jews as an ethnic and religious group and the state of Israel.
You all make such eloquent allusions to the legitimate state of Israel as occupied territory, as does the Hamas charter.
It’s very fashionable thought, from the not so hallowed halls of American academe to the not so hallowed halls of the Japanese government. Very generous of you all, wherever you are throughout the world.
Hamas, a violent terrorist organization, was duly elected in Gaza at the point of a gun. Abbas is weak, old man who has recently presented his weak old man-ness to forging alliances with Hamas.
I suppose in the mind of intellectuals everywhere it’s perfectly in keeping with humanistic common sense for Hamas to train up its small children into the ways of Jew hating and jihad.
As for the despicable Mullah Krekar, didn’t he say Muslims would breed like “mosquitoes” and Europe would be conquered that way ? It seems to be working.
Thank you Benjamin Larsen for taking time to provide some much-needed enlightenment here.
You are not helping your argument by doubling down you your one-sided obsession with Israel. You disgust me.
I’m not quite following you. It might surprise you to learn that some people actually hold more nuanced stances to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict than a steadfast defence for whatever is Israel’s current policies. My position is not very different from that which Peres and Rabin held when they signed the Oslo accords. Israel is an economically, culturally and militarily powerful state, whose current foreign minister has stated that he does not want a peace process, and whose current government has acted in a way that makes a renewal of the peace process impossible. In this state of affairs, I find it reasonable to support the Palestinian side.
That’s my position. How that equals nazism beats me. It is also a wide side track from the main topic.
I didn´t mention nazism. I said your one-sided obsession with Israel disgusts me, precisely because there is nothing nuanced about it.
“Being on the board of the largest Pro-Palestine umbrella organization in Norway”
That, and your pretense that the de facto Hamas government in Gaza didn’t seize power in a bloody coup d’etat, says about all one needs to know about your moral compass: off by many, many degrees. Sorry: people of sound mind have no time for anyone who is involved with a pro-terrorist organization: and the fact that you deny that that’s what you are is further demonstration of your decadence.
And to compound your support for terrorists, you then attempt to insult Americans by claiming our supposed “human rights violator championship” is backed by statements from Americans- as if we aren’t perfectly well aware which “Americans” those are, ultra-left-wing oikophobes like Noam Chomsky, Ward Churchill, Howard Zinn and Medea Benjamin.
Who speak for “America” about like Vidkun Quisling spoke for “Norway.”
Mr. Bohemond
I did not say anything regarding the way Hamas gained power in Gaza. I made it clear that Hamas was a force that had to be taken into account even before they committed a coup d’êtat in Gaza (and Fatah did likewise in the West Bank). I have also disavowed the policies of Hamas.
And no, Mr. Bohemond., Chomsky, Churchill, Zinn and Benjamin are not to you what Quisling was to us. They did not legitimize a occupation by seizing power under an immoral yoke in your name, and for ever shame your nation by theirs. Whatever you think of them – even I find them hysterical at times – they and their likes tell important truths about American empire. Although such indices should be treated with caution, the U.S. scores bad by the rest of the West’s standards, for instance, see http://www.guardian.co.uk/Tables/4_col_tables/0,,258326,00.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_United_States#International_comparison
Although I do not hold these articles as conclusive evidence, I ask for your understanding as to why some people might assert such an opinion.
It’s interesting that you, Mr. Larsen, claim to not have a distorted view of reality and yet here you are claiming that the statistics show that Islamic terrorism isn’t the major threat. Well, then, why don’t you tell all of us just what the major threat is and would you also explain list for all of us the attacks that this other threat has undertaken and how many people that this unidentified threat has killed?
Let’s hear it – I want a specific movement named and the acts that were undertaken by it in its name.
Murdering kids is condemned (except by the Jihadist imams and their congregations who sponsor it) AND the Norwegian shooter remains correct about the Islamist threat and the appeasers who enable them.
If Norway remains asleep many more of their people will perish and their culture will be buried by the Muslim hordes.
foreman and liberyship42 are on to something. I have long sensed a disconnect between the European elites and the rest of the people. It first became apparent during the Maastricht “debates”. Unlike this country and Great Britain, Europeans have little tradition of bottom-up democracy in which *everyone* gets their say. The European Union is anything but a bottom-up democracy, which is the only kind worth having. The immediate future looks grim; I hope I am wrong.
If I were Norwegian I would be absolutely disgusted by you. One can clearly sense through your writing that you don’t really sympathize with all the murdered children. Your anguish actually stems from the fact that you are disappointed/upset that the culprit was one of your own who actually admired you specifically. You are so consumed by hate that you don’t wish that this tragedy wouldn’t have taken place. You just wishes that those responsible would have been those “evil” Muslims.
This is the impression I got as well from this article.
It’s disgusting how you dare to try to downplay certain points because of how you fear it might affect the movement you’re part of.
Even muslim leaders call out extremist muslims, while at the same time recognizing them as terrorists.
You on the other hand, and others that share your beliefs, don’t even have the guts to call this man the terrorist he is out of fear of what that term makes people think of.
You’re worse than apologetic muslims.
Jeg skrev at han er en “evil, twisted creature”. What more do you want?
“Even muslim leaders call out extremist muslims, while at the same time recognizing them as terrorists.”
Some do. Many don´t. And we all have learned to live with it.
But Bawer was very clear about his rejection of this crime. You wanted to see him on his knees begging for forgiveness. Why would he? The next terrorist might come from a group you largely agree with or defended at one point, and I bet you won´t apologize either. I say this remembering lots of odes to the “Iraqi resistance” (which actually murdered mostly Iraqis) in the European press while living in Germany.
How much weeping and grovelling do you expect? You’re not going to get much more than the crocodile-tears you America-hating Norwegians pretended to shed over 9/11, but at least they’ll be genuine.
Not gonna lie. This whole article is pretty douchey. You’re doing your whole country a disservice.
Norway didn’t help the West during the Cold War. In fact, it actively impeded America’s efforts to remain free.
Norway has refused to save itself from the depredations of Islam.
Given all the virulent anti-Americanism out of Norway over the past four decades, pardon me for not mustering sympathy one.
Give yourself a Nobel Peace Prize.
It turns out that the kids on this island, were being brought up, like all good Euro-lefties, to be little anti-Semitic bigots.
Per Manfred Gerstenfeld, in Ynet:
“Well-known anti-Israelis such as Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Stoere and Sidsel Wold, the NRK state broadcasting group’s correspondent in Israel, spoke at the Labor Party’s youth camp before the massacre. Stoere was welcomed while in the background posters were hanging with “Boycott Israel” written on them.”
Remember, these are the same Norwegian leftists who make heroes out of those Nazi savages of Hamas, Fatah and Hezbollah who murder Jewish children in Israel.
If the Norwegians on this forum have found little sympathy from the Jews here, maybe they should take a good look at themselves first. If that is even possible for them.
On the one hand it’s not very politic to write an article criticizing Norway right after about a hundred innocent Norwegians were murdered in cold blood.
‘Holme called the United State “human-rights-violation-country number one”’.
On the other hand it’s real hard for me to feel a whole of sympathy for Norway when their citizens and even their public officials are going around spewing that kind of LYING anti-American propaganda.
60 years ago the Norwegians erected a statue to President Roosevelt in Oslo by way of thanking us for helping to defeat the Nazis, and now they appear to hate our guts, even though we’ve helped them plenty, and never offered them ANY harm whatsoever.
If that’s the attitude over there (and, it sure seems to be), then why should I give a damn what happens to Norwegians?
Frankly, the whole damned country can drop into the North Sea for all I care.
And, the next time Norway has a Hitler or Stalin breathing down its neck, Norway should call on its new-found Muslim friends for help instead of us.
It’s not really their fault. Norway is a very small country that has, thanks to the United States and its own unearned wealth in natural resources, lived a very sheltered and privileged existence. They are like small children, asking their parents “Why?” who when they don’t get an answer that satisfies their youthful curiosity presume to be not only the equal of their parents/guardians, but their betters. I certainly feel bad about the end (or the beginning of the end?) of Norway’s innocence, but on the other hand they aren’t MY children, and frankly their snarky and obnoxious condescension and constant moralizing has been getting on my nerves for quite some time. If they were my neighbor’s kids, I’d be that one cranky guy calling the police every time they invited their friends over, in hopes their family would eventually move someplace else. Unfortunately, it doesn’t really work that way in today’s western world but maybe revoking their internet privileges and not inviting them to participate in any adult activities will solve the problem too. Even if it doesn’t, at least maybe I wouldn’t have to hear so much of their silly babbling over here in California. Because no lie: it does piss me off a lot. Particularly in this case where the meme that seems to be emerging is that it’s America’s fault that one of the kids in Norway got tired of being bullied by the other kids on the playground and went on a rampage. Where can the US sign on the dotted line to relieve ourselves of the responsibility of babysitting Norwegians?
Does a day ever go by when there is not a Muslim terrorist attack?
See this is the problem with Norwegian immigration laws. We let people like you in. Kindly leave my city.
Truth hurts, huh?
Mr. Eric R.
I have not called you a nazi. I have told you that calling me a nazi won’t win me over, and that calling people nazis is commonly counted as such bad form in a debate, that the person doing the calling loses the debate by default.
The fact that you weren’t allowed to comment is probably a result of a maximum number of nested replies in the settings of the commentary field at pajamasmedia.com, and not something of my doing.
How do you think people like us can reason with one another?
So tell me Herr Adolf Larsen, if you are not a Nazi, then where is your concern for:
a) Tibetans occupied by China?
b) Georgians occupied by Russia?
c) The part of Cyprus being occupied by Turkey?
d) The Kurdish in their struggle for an independent nation?
e) The black Muslims of Darfur being slaughtered by the white Arab Muslims of Sudan? (Since you seem to love Muslims so much.)
f) For the Christians being massacred around the world by Muslims?
No, you don’t give a shit about any of them. And yet none of these groups vow to exterminate their (true) occupiers (unlike the Israelis, who are holding this land because they were being attacked from it). You only concern yourselves with supporting crazed filthy, sub-human Islamonazi savages who openly admire Hitler and want to finish his work of exterminating Jews. Then when the Jews try to stop these efforts at a second Holocaust, you scream bloody murder. Admit it, the only good Jew to you is a dead one. Always was. Always will be. Under the guise of human rights, you use a sickening and genocidal double standard whose only goal is to wipe every last Jew off the face of the earth.
I can’t reason with a degenerate Nazi scumbag like you, no matter how slick your words. We Jews will no longer debate our right to live, much as you want us all to die. You only deserve hate, insults and scorn.
Mr. Eric R.
Although you continue to address me as subhuman, and purport to know my beliefs, knowledge and motives better than I, I will answer your questions, after pointing out that I am doing you a favor in allowing you to continue straying off topic with regards to Mr. Bawers despicable post and haphazard handling of truth. As a return service, I do not think it is unreasonable to expect that you comment on the validity and timeliness of Mr. Bawer’s conclusions, if my assertions were true.
a) This question is infinitely more complex than the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, although I believe that chinese repression of Tibetan culture is reprehensible and should be stopped. I hope my government addresses the issue in its contacts with China, and keeps contact with the Dalai Lama. The Norwegian public has already pissed the Chinese off by being the society that fosters the Nobel Committee that awarded Liu Xiaobo the Peace Prize, so it unfortunately has relatively little leeway in doing so.
b) I have some concern, although this conflict is also more complicated than the Israeli-Palestinian, since it involves several different ethnic groups which are played against one another. Although the Georgian government in Tblisi might claim that Abkhazia is under Russian occupation, people in Abkhazia might not.
c) The part of Cyprus under Turkish occupation was, to the best of my knowledge, on the brink of normalizing relations with the rest of Cyprus. As I understand the situation, the situation is not resolved mainly due to various tactical political motives, but could easily be so within a short time span, given the right conditions.
d) I support the Kurdish struggle for an independent nation, although I am under the impression that the Kurdish Regional Government in Northern Iraq has been a milestone in allieviating the pain of cultural repression. Obviously, the kurdish minority should be recognized and given the right to determine their local cultural policies, have their language recognized and their institutions legitimized in the countries where it exists.
e) I deplore the slaughters in Sudan.
f) I deplore the premise in your question f), as it is simply not true that «Muslims in general massacre Christians».
In addition, I am also actively supporting the people of Western Sahara who live under Moroccan occupation or exile in famished refugee camps in Algeria. Rather than let the charters or fluctuating attitudes of distressed people legitimize a permanent dehumanization of the enemy, I consider the numbers: For every Israeli citizen killed by attacks from its occupied lands, Israel kills 100 Palestinians. Every year the settlements encroach on Palestinian lands.
So, to me it’s clear that Israel is the stronger part. It’s nigh to being the only part, since the Palestinian Authority is ridiculously weak in comparison. However, I do not admit to any of your accusations. Far more than half of the world’s Jews don’t live in Israel, and a large proportion of that country’s populace is non-Jewish. I don’t accept that an attack on Israel’s policies is an attack on all Jewry, and considering the facts on the ground I consider your invocation of the Sho’ah to describe the threat to Israel by the people of the Occupied Territories to be either an act of outrageous contempt of its victims’ sufferings or an example of amazing lack of historical perspective.
The thing is, every human has a right to live. Be she Jew, Hindu or Norwegian. And although I understand the temptation, every occupying state valuing the lives of its own civilian population over the lives of the occupied civilian population is committing the heinous moral crime of chauvinism. I don’t hate the state of Israel, I just wish that its claim to be a human rights-respecting democracy was backed up with facts.
Do you seriously believe that I want you to die?
Maybe it’s just me but I was under the impression you were being asked to provide evidence that you had spoken out about those issues ion the past with the same passion you’ve spoken out about evil joos and american idiots and so on and so forth. Answering questions in a politically correct manner while being completely biased when it comes to what it is you decide to get involved in is an old dodge and doesn’t amount to much at the end of the day.
Human beings can be evil. Man is fallen. We in the west have been taught to pretend that there is no true evil that cannot be explained, no evil without a reason, like deprivation or a bad childhood. But there is.
Any idea can serve as a springboard for evil. The evil man can use anything to legitimize the intoxicating freedom of being evil. Even conservative ideas that we agree with. But it must be said that “anything” is usually not used. Most terrorism in the last 50 years did come from the far left and fanatic muslims. That is just a fact. But there is no guarantee that it will always and everywhere be so.
The only lesson that we can draw – one that conservatives should not have to learn – is humility. The realization that man is a fallen creature. I would say that this knowledge is inherent in conservatism, but in the heat of battle some of us can forget. The left never learned it and has no intention of learning it; they believe they can make men perfect and breaking eggs to make omelette is in their DNA (and you never get the omelette).
“It wasn’t jihad”
You say “potato,” I say “patattah”. Mass-murdering totalitarian religious fanatics or mass-murdering totalitarian secular fanatics, it’s the same poison in different bottles. People like Breivik have far more in common with the jihadists than they will ever admit. They don’t use the language of holy war but they behave in the same way. As Diderot once wrote, “From fanaticism to barbarism is only one step”.
I paid $32.67 for a XBOX 360 and my mom got a 17 inch Toshiba laptop for $94.83 being delivered to our house tomorrow by FedEX. I will never again pay expensive retail prices at stores. I even sold a 46 inch HDTV to my boss for $650 and it only cost me $52.78 to get. Here is the website we using to get all this stuff, CentShack . com
Well . . . I guess someone can’t seem to admit that his most ardent supporter is a homicidal maniac.
Perhaps you may want to reflect on the fact that hate merely breeds hate.
Being a dogmatic, ideological, blind-faith, violent Muslim is terrible.
Being a dogmatic, ideological, blind-faith, violent Christian is exactly the same.
For a lay person, who stumbled here by accident, who is neither american or norwegian, nor muslim or jew this has been a most enlightening 30 minutes of reading. You people are a bunch of racists xenophobic paranoid “my religion and my country are better then yours” 7 year old kids. There is so much hatred and vile going on here it made me sick to the stomach. Would kindly the U.S. And their upmanship go away they have been exploiting, killing and bullying the rest of the world forever. Would jews please stop crying anti semitism every time anyone opens their mouth: israel is oppressing and exercising violence on a daily basis, would muslims please take a good look at their religion and tell us if they want to co-live on this planet or not and would you ALL please stop pretending to represent your religion. If God existed, and i’m starting to doubt it these days, look around you, he has obviously dumped us. STOP THIS BICKERING !! You have all given that madman what he wants: the above debate. Most of us want to just live our little lives in our little corner in peace and not want the negative energy that your fanatic stubborn views are creating in the world, just like you want this writer to leave your country, i want anyone who hates anyone to leave my planet. NOW !!
i want anyone who hates anyone to leave my planet. NOW !!
Since yours was one of the most hateful comments in the whole thread, I sugge4st you go first
Considering most initially assumed an organized terrorist network behind this tragedy, I don’t understand why there wasn’t more security on the island. Even if it had been preparation for the wrong enemy, there would have been some protection period. Although..if it had been the apparently typically unarmed policeman, not much help would have been available.
By the way, this idea of a political “youth camp” gathering on an island seems a bit odd to me. But it seems like it would be natural to have some security there.
And yes, so far the excuses for the delayed response make the police look less capable than the news copter gathering footage of the massacre.
By the way, this idea of a political “youth camp” gathering on an island seems a bit odd to me. But it seems like it would be natural to have some security there.
Such indoctrination centers are common in communist countries. I bet if we dug deep enough we’d even find some re-education camps in Norway. Not that Norway is communist… but they do seem to read from the same playbook…
That last @73 was to the Norwegian son of Lars by the way. Reply seems to be broken on your thread.