A ‘Dear Congresswoman’ Letter Protesting ObamaCare
Feeling particularly peevish one morning a few weeks ago, I crafted an aggressive letter and sent it to all of my national government representatives as well as to the president. I asked each of them to simply stop all of the initiatives regarding health care, cap and trade, etc., and let us all catch our breath.
The U.S. government had, after all, in a stunning few months, embarked on an unprecedented multi-billion dollar spending (“stimulus”) program, acquired a major insurance company and two very large automobile manufacturing companies, and assumed effective management control over the banking industry. All this at enormous and incalculable cost. I, like many of my fellow citizens, was feeling a serious sense of overload and wanted some time to digest these initiatives.
With the exception of my representative, Congresswoman Nita Lowey, neither of my senators nor the president did much more than electronically acknowledge my communication and direct me to their websites where I could witness them performing adulatory acts and read the usual pap regarding their support for the administration’s programs. I do, after all, live in a very blue state.
Ms. Lowey, however, replied with a 2 ½ page response in which she detailed her understanding of the need for health care reform and presented a case for the plan as it now stands in the House version. I was impressed and pleased with the thoroughness of her response and grateful to have an opportunity to engage in what I hope to be a meaningful dialogue absent much of the hype that so often passes for discussions.
Here is my (somewhat edited) response to her. There is so much more to say but one can only cover so much at a time. Perhaps there will be more to report as she and I may engage in further discussions.
* * *
Dear Ms. Lowey,
Thank you very much for your thoughtful and comprehensive response to the concerns that I had expressed regarding the health care “reform” proposals that are currently under consideration.
I would be pleased if you would consider the following observations and suggestions regarding this effort as I believe that they may better inform your considerations of legislation as it may develop over the months ahead.
First and, I believe, foremost, is the financial condition of Medicare. Without reiterating the facts that are well known and confirmed by all of the analysts and budget watchers, this program, by itself, is broken and will bankrupt our nation within the next generation or two. Congress and previous administrations have been urged to institute significant changes to either increase its revenue or decrease its services but there has been no political will to address the matter. Instead, the issue has been “kicked down the road” for future legislatures and administrations to address.
Medicaid suffers from a similar problem. Before introducing an enormous restructuring of our entire health care system as is being proposed, prudence dictates that we fix the problems that we now have. I do not find it credible to believe that the proposed legislation will ever be “revenue neutral.”
Supporters of the existing House proposed legislation contend that the introduction of a government-sponsored insurance program (included in the “Exchange” as you referred to it) will enhance competition in the health care insurance market. If one can predict anything from history, the political process and various special interest groups will surely suborn a government plan and more subsidies will be provided. (I observed the president’s town hall meeting in Colorado this eve where he strongly asserted that this would not happen. Count me as a skeptic).
Under these circumstances, choice will mean very little since the sheer economics of the plans that will be presented to employers and individuals will drive them to the less expensive, government-sponsored programs. This program will, inevitably, spell the death knell of competitive health insurance.
The concept that all patients pay the same rates for their level of coverage regardless of age or medical condition is embedded in the proposed plan. There is no equity at all in such a proposal since risks vary widely based upon genetic inheritance, life style, age, occupation, etc. The assessment of such risks are made daily by the hundreds of insurance companies underwriting fire and automobile risk coverage, life insurance, disability and even, yes, health insurance. While these underwriting efforts are regularly, to some extent, inhibited by state and federal legislation, there is an underlying concept that is, in my judgment, sound, i.e., one should pay for the risk that one presents to the insurance company.
Among the serious consequences of the proposed concept is that the patient will have no apparent financial interest in monitoring his or her medical costs nor will the benefits of life-style changes accrue to the patient in any tangible way. To the extent that individual citizens are indigent and require public assistance, direct subsidies or vouchers might be provided that may not distort an efficient and effective system.
Even those plans that operate under the provisions of the Employee Retirement Income Security Act (ERISA) will, after five years (assuming no changes to the underlying plan), be forced to offer “approved” plans, imposing even more conformity in the market. These and many other details essentially call into question the assertions that one may “keep his current plan.” The government-sponsored plans will most assuredly crowd out all other insurers and self-insurers as operate under ERISA.






This plan is not about health care; it is about government control and, more specifically, how to expand federal control into an intimate aspect of every citizen’s life. The Democratic leaders in Congress have no interest in “freeing up” the market or improving the quality or availability of health care. This is a power struggle, plain and simple. The market has given us the best health care in the world because it allows freedom for innovation. Even if the proposals would really provide universal health care (they won’t), the quality of that care would be stagnant because there would be no incentive for improvement. The government has created an unsustainable system, featuring tax benefits for employer-sponsored plans and giant unfunded liabilities for Medicare and Medicaid. Having created the problem, the government magnanimously offers to fix it, all we need to do is give it more power over our lives. Adding 50 million people to the system with no new doctors, nurses or other health professionals will not improve the quality or availability of anyone’s care. It will guaranty the type of waiting lists and lower cure rates that are the hallmarks of the Canadian and British national health plans.
I like and agree with all three of your suggestions. I hope people in DC are listening.
This letter is well thought out and erudite. I have sent similar letters to my Congress person, probably less erudite, but pointing out the lack of cost savings,likely rationing,long waits for services, illegal aliens getting service before US citizens,4th Amendment problems etc. The difference, the author got the courtesy of a reply.
My Congress person is Carol Shea Porter, NH 1st Congressional district. She has been featured nationally for being MIA for the month of August as has our 2nd district Rep Paul Hodes. She sends out self congratulating pap in reply to letters, obviously written by an intern when she address’ other topics. She has been silent regarding concerns about the bill.
In contrast at least Ms Lowey issued a thoughtful reply to the constituent. 2010 is coming and Carol Shea Porter has lost a lot of ground with NH voters.
What a great letter. I think you articulated extremely well the thoughts and opinions of many of us.
Ain’t it the truth?
I have put a pencil to all these government handout problems and came up with one word.
Baby Boomers-
78 million of us.
Born 1946-1964- Obama is and his wife are Baby Boomers.
The Democrats want to control our votes,
they know/think that if they please us we will keep them in power for the next 30 years.
Most of us are not stupid,
we know that our kids can’t even make their house payments without some help so how the hell is the government going to pay all our bills?
Most of us would be willing to pay more for government services as in taxes on our SS Medicare- etc.
I mean why stop something we have been paying for 45 fricking years.
But the Democrats want to appeal to the ‘greed’ they think is in us.
Hey!
Give us power over you and we will take care of grandma until she dies- or we have to eat her.
Well from one Baby Boomer generation-
SCREW YOU-UP YOURS!
WE NEVER TRUSTED ANYONE OVER 30.
I LOVE MY COUNTRY
BUT I WOULDN’T BELIEVE A GOVERNMENT DICKHEAD IF HE TOLD ME MY CLOTHES WERE ON FIRE AND HAD PICTURES.
All well and good except that there is little to indicate that those suggestions would have much real impact on soaring health care costs, which is the heart of any reform proposal. The most telling bit in this article is where it goes: “Such a structure will, among other things, introduce incentives for the doctor to withhold certain tests and reduce costs.” So in other words, doctors should not consider costs in patient treatment, which is an absolutely ridiculous point, especially considering the insane amounts of money currently being wasted on just unnecessary tests.
This doesn’t go far enough. We need to abolish Medicare and Social Security immediately. As long as the same people opposing ObamaCare continue to cash socialist welfare checks from Social Security and use socialized medicine in the form of Medicare, there’s always a chance some mean-spirited naysayer will accuse them of hypocrisy.
GREAT LETTER
….but as Bob in the first comment states ….it is not about health care. this health bill in it’s present form coupled with the stimulus (which isn’t about stimulating) is following the tenents of socialist thinkers (read marxist). there is the beginings of collapsing the economy coupled with the information that will be garnered by the health bill (not to mention the control of the individuals health options in entirety) …total control
without firing a shot. the need for speed in passing these bills is if the people knew the depth of the control the government would have they would revolt.
BUT CAN AMERICA MAKE IT TO 2012 ?
here is a short video clip …it highlights how marxism has been using education to spread their ideology in north america
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTmbcyeZ9ic&feature=related
it is all in this short clip ..why trolls, or most democrats keep using the same arguments regardless of what they are shown.
Fantastic letter but, unfortunately, it has no audience and will not be heard. Maybe 20 years ago! It’s not about Health Care. It’s not about Cap-N-Trade. It’s not about fixing American Autos. It’s not about Stimulus …. It’s about putting the prized socialist capstone in place, for good! These programs that redistribute wealth all create the conditions that channel fearful, strapped, hungry Americans to one savior – the federal government. We are NOT BECOMING the nanny state. WE ARE THE NANNY STATE! Only takes 51% now! The people who are now in the majority arrived in place after 50 years of a steady Marxist diet of propaganda pushed into the public arena by useful idiots of the left. What did average Americans do? They dutifully went to work. They coached Little League Baseball. They raised their families. They paid their taxes. They went to church and prayed to an ignored God. They watched TV sports. They lived! In their lives, there are three types of people – - – those that make it happen, those that watch it happen, and those that ask, ‘what happened?’ Our collective 49 percenters are scratching their heads now and asking, “What Happened?” One needs only to stand back from the ring to see that the 49 percenter fighters are you and me. While we get bloody over minutia, the odds maker political classes are busy building the ultimate fighting cage that has no escape. A means to their end! Keep the minions in the cage. In a word, with rare exception, the time for emails, phone calls and letters is past. The water is rushing over the damn now. We have to get off our collective rear ends and march on DC. We must remove the current political class and redirect the dialogue away from Statist collectivism and back to our beloved Constitutional Republic. It will get ugly! One thing is certain…talking to deaf ears isn’t going to get the job done. Have you read Drudge this morning? Dems will ignor the public and vote for the HC Bill!!!! They know best! Listen to Eric Massa’s comments on YouTube. Sickening!
Bob at # 1,
All I can say is exactly correct in my book. Please make sure you articulate your concerns in a cogent personal email to your Congress person. Bombast gets us no where and should be reserved as a tactic of the left.
Very good analysis and suggestions for a workable plan. I would add a 4th. Providers of care should be allowed by law to charge beyond what is paid by the “insurance.” Otherwise important care will not be available—reimbursement will be less than what it costs to provide—thus it will become unavailable. Under current provisions it is illegal to charge above that allowed by the bureaucracy. Off to prison and out of business. All socialized countries either allow this to occur or it occurs under the table but care is primarily rationed or disappears.
U R one bright guy! Maybe you should run for her seat..!
As has been mentioned tort reform is essential to any kind of health care reform. Due to a recent surgery in my family I have seen first hand how doctors are having to practice lawsuit prevention first and medicine second. The amount of money the lawyers are causing to be taken out of the system is staggering and what is even worse is the fact that tort reform has not even been considered or discussed by any legislators that I have listened to.
6. BC wrote:
All well and good except that there is little to indicate that those suggestions would have much real impact on soaring health care costs
Peter writes: Unlike the plan being floated by the House (HR3200) which, according to the CBO, will definitely INCREASE costs and the national debt.
BC complains about how ‘unnecessary tests’ doctors order are a large part of rising health care costs, but then tries to claim that tort reform, which would cut down on frivilous lawsuits against doctors and thus negate the C-Y-A extra tests they order, would do nothing to reduce costs. What planet is BC living on, I wonder?
Did anyone see Jon Stewart completely dominate Glenn Beck the other night? He showed clips of Beck recently saying we are in danger of losing the best health care in the world. He then showed Beck about a year ago talking about health care crisis. That the system is broken and people are getting shoved out the door. It just goes to show conservatives either lie or don’t know what they are talking about when it comes to healthcare. Debating things like death panels and tort reform just show how off base you people are.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-13-2009/glenn-beck-s-operation
By the way the US health system ranks 37th in the world, so please stop that we are the best non-sense. What do you have to back it up besides Fox News pundits?
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
Bob (1)
Charles (9)
You guys are right on. It’s all about power and control.I just say NO to any health plan that the current administration attempts to put through no matter how innocent it may appear. It will only be a first step towards total control of US health care in the future. And from that, there will be no turning back without a total revolution.
We just need to fix what we have. First step: tort reform. California health care costs are half of New Jerseys because CA put through tort reform. Second step: allow health insurance across state lines.
Never happen though. Their goal is to have national control of 1/6 of the economy and then move to total control of our lives.
I wrote to Chuck Schumer a couple weeks ago and said “Hi Chuck. When you do start your end of life counseling? I start in 7 years and I’m so excited to learn how to make room for the young ‘uns.”
I got back his standard form letter saying how much he loves keeping in contact with his constituents.
Serioulsy–> You are asking these people to believe their lying eyes. We all know that its their gut that does the perception-duties for them. The eyes are just there to keep their little brains from sliding out of their skulls when they bend over.
Good work, Cortes. It is surprising that you got a decent response from M.s. Lowey, but you have handled it gracefully in the response above. I especially like the three positives.
#17 Mudboss: “it’s all about power and control. Just say NO to any health plan that the current administration attempts to put through…..”
Ahhh; if life was so simple….. Have to wonder how you feel about the vastly expensive prescription drug benefit put in place by Bush/Cheney? And according to some recent studies, over 70% of the health insurance market in over 20 states is controlled by 1 or 2 companies? Doesn’t sound like the free market at work to me; sounds like monopoly and oligopoly. Hate to say it, but maybe a government health plan or at least medical co-ops could inject some competition and reduce premiums.
Like Mike2 in #13, I had a surgery last year; and insurance didn’t cover all of it. The surg center gave me a 60% discount for paying in cash. I paid $3,600, which means the center would have billed insurance for $9,000. Just how expensive was that procedure??
Private health plans often include some element of family planning. I fully agree with those who don’t want public money paying for abortions. But isn’t the whole anti-abortion movement; many of whose adherents also oppose artificial birth control; all about trying to use big government to have power and control over peoples’ personal lives? Can’t we just say NO to that?
I have asked this question of my Congressman (John Sarbanes, D MD) on 3 different occasions.
Dear Mr. Sarbanes,
Please find enclosed a copy of the simple question that I asked you, as well as your non-answer. I take it that basically, you just don’t have an answer why you in Congress has chosen to specifically exclude yourselves, and all Federall employees, as well as members of the Executive branch from coverage in your bill. I would very much like answer to my question.
Sincerely,
Richard A. Vail
“Pray that you will never have to bear all that you are able to endure.”
Jewish Proverb”
Dear Mr. Sarbanes,
I would like you, personally, to answer one simple question:
If HB 3200 is such a good bill for this country, WHY is/are Congress, the President, VP, and all federal employees specifically exempt from the provisions of this bill?
After all, if it is good enough for the rest of us, it SHOULD be good enough for you, your family, Congress, the President and all federal employees.
Richard A. Vail
I keep getting variations of the following response:
July 24, 2009
In a message dated 7/24/2009 2:49:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, md03ima@mail.house.gov writes:
Dear Dr. Vail:
Thank you for contacting me to express your views about health care policy. As the Congress enters into this historic debate over health reform, I have heard from thousands of people who care deeply about this issue and want to highlight specific areas of concern to them. I appreciate this input and have tried to put it to good use as we consider various reform proposals.
America is home to the world’s best doctors and nurses, the most advanced medical technologies, and scientists that are on the cutting edge of research and development. There are many things about our health care system that we should be proud of and fight to retain. But rising health care costs are making quality care less affordable – squeezing American families and businesses. Americans pay more for care than any other citizens in the world, but we are not the healthiest.
It is time for us to create a uniquely American health system that builds on what works and fixes what is broken. We must make health care more efficient and affordable so that all Americans have the opportunity to receive quality care. And we must put doctors and patients back in charge of our health care decisions – not insurance companies.
In a recent speech to the American Medical Association, President Obama offered his own observations about the current state of health care in America. He said, “When it comes to the cost of our health care, then, the status quo is unsustainable. Reform is not a luxury, but a necessity. I know there has been much discussion about what reform would cost, and rightly so. This is a test of whether we – Democrats and Republicans alike – are serious about holding the line on new spending and restoring fiscal discipline. But let there be no doubt – the cost of inaction is greater. If we fail to act, premiums will climb higher, benefits will erode further, and the rolls of uninsured will swell to include millions more Americans.”
As the health reform debate continues, the overriding goal for me is, and always will be, providing the opportunity for every American to access quality care. The debate over how we expand coverage has received the most focus and it is very important that we get it right when we develop new insurance options for patients. I will continue to advocate for a system that gives Americans more choices including a “public option.” I strongly support a public option health plan because I believe enhanced competition in the health care market will reduce cost and promote innovation.
But there are several other issues receiving much less national attention that I view as equally important to the success of our reform efforts. I have been particularly focused on ensuring that we have an adequate number of doctors and nurses to support our new health system; bringing a new emphasis to primary and preventive care so that we can catch health problems before patients become very sick and reduce cost; and finding ways to bring health services to the patient through “place-based health care.” I have introduced legislation to support each of these goals and have worked to make them a part of the broader health care reform debate. Additional information about each bill can be accessed through my http://www.sarbanes.house.gov/health.
As a member of both the Health Subcommittee and the full Energy and Commerce Committee, I have participated in scores of hearings on all aspects of our health care system. In late June, making use of what we learned in these hearings, the Congressional panels that claim jurisdiction over various elements of health care policy – Energy and Commerce, Ways and Means, and Education and Labor – released a tri-committee discussion draft for comment and revision. More recently, the Chairmen of these three committees have introduced legislation that builds on the discussion draft and incorporates ideas that were generated in response to that document. I am pleased that several of my legislative proposals discussed above have been incorporated into the broader health reform bill. The committee has now begun formal consideration of the legislation and it is my hope that we will be able to report a bill to the full House of Representatives in the near future. For more information about the bill, go to the Energy and Commerce Committee here: http://www.energycommerce.house.gov.
I understand and respect that this is a very personal issue for many Americans. In the end, I believe it is possible to make intelligent reforms to our health care system that expand coverage and improve quality of care. I also believe there are many areas where we can reduce cost by eliminating waste and making our system more efficient. The status quo is unsustainable and I am convinced that long term economic security will be elusive until we fix our health care system. I look forward to your continued feedback as the process unfolds in the coming weeks and months.
Sincerely,
John Sarbanes
Member of Congress
Eventually, I hope to get at least some sort of response that actually answers my question.
Seriously:
Seriously? Really?Did you really show up with a gimmick like that here? I can’t wait to go get a vaccination in…Morocco.
At least the representative sent a real response, it is seldom that you get that much if anything at all. I would rather get a bad answer to my concerns than a canned response probably from an auto-responder or staff member.
I must say that since the congress or senate does not actually read bills before their bodies for them to vote on though you would think that they have the time to read and possibly respond to their constituents.
Looks like the Democrats will use the nuclear option and pass the heath care bill without Republican support.
So they don’t listen, on their cell phone, we are mobsters, and now I’m a raciest for being a senior citizen.
We can only make sure we remember the Democrats and vote them out starting next year.
We can only make sure we remember the Democrats and vote them out starting next year.
That’s exactly what people who were sick of Republican incompetence and corruption did last year! About sixty percent, or more, of the population. That’s why its exactly the Republican agenda that’s being rejected. So go for it! Vote them out with the illiterate and ignorant 30% of the electorate that backs you.
I just read a news piece that stated the Democrats in Congress are preparing to use the reconciliation process, normally reserved for budgeting, to ram health care reform through with a simple majority vote in the Senate. I would be surprised if this were attempted. Here’s why.
I am not at all sure that certain Democrat Senators wouldn’t vote against such a move. I would be surprised if Ben Nelson and Kent Conrad supported such ramming via reconciliation and I bet other Senators might join them. They are highly respected in that body.
My understanding is that if this were attempted it is the last legislation the Semate would be able to consider for a very long time. It takes one Republican Senator to abrogate the Senate waiver of readings rule. This means that 1000 page bills would have to be read into the record, a process that could take days and effectively end Senate debate.
Finally, as each day passes and more Americans find out about the contents of Obamacare the bill becomes more unpopular. Reconciliation would therefore be used to pass an unpopular piece of legislation. The Democrats are not suicidal. Such a result would be very politically damaging and could permanently hamstring the administration. It could also result in a reversal of power in the 2010 election and the abandonment of Democrats by the most likely voters, the elderly.
I would be surprised if the reconciliation process was employed for ramming.It could seriously damage the Democrats power structure and fuel a popular uprising in 2010. I say it is unlikely.
Following is one of my letters sent to various interested entities about ObamaCare, and a number of my other deep concerns. Rachel
Whatever you want to call it, be it single payer, government managed health care, ObamaCare, the public option or socialized medicine, it doesn’t really matter.
The American people have raised their voices in opposition to the government having veto power over you and your doctor’s considered treatment decisions. ObamaCare has unofficially flat lined.
It’s D.O.A.
And no matter how many times Nancy Palosi bellows that the people attending town meetings to voice their strong opposition to ObamaCare are Nazis, it’s not going to change their minds. If Congress itself is too good for ObamaCare, then ObamaCare isn’t good enough for the people.
Incidentally, there’s a reason Obama refuses to have a “no rationing clause” inserted. And everybody knows what it is. The same President who said “No earmarks in my administration,” who then signed a bill with 9,000 of them, now says the public option will have no rationing. Fool me once…well you know how it goes.
And wasn’t it Barack Obama who said he was the”post racial president” who, without a smidgen of fact to base it on, accused one of America’s best and brightest police officers of “acting stupidly” in the arrest of a Harvard buddy. Implied racism was undeniable.
As if that weren’t enough, President Obama hired to the supreme court the ethnocentric, Sonia Sotomayor, who swears up and down that any Hispanic woman is more intelligent than a white male. Imagine if Imus said the opposite.
Factor in President Obama calling for the redistribution of wealth; his apparent fascination with some kind of EuroSocialist America; and what have we got?
We’ve got to start questioning where his true loyalties lie. I’m confused. Doesn’t Obama’s birth certificate say, “Born in America”.
Actually, I hoped on that cold January day that a man of impeccable integrity and honesty was being sworn in. Our first black President. So many of us were so proud. Only to hear a week later the new attorney general call us, with regard to race, a nation of cowards. Hello. Who was just elected President?
Well, now it’s been eight months and the reality has sunk in.
Barack, I’m afraid you’re not that great leader from Chicago.
I fear you’re just another bum from the neighborhood.
Reconciliation won’t be a walk in the park. It may be a walk in a minefield.
http://keithhennessey.com/2009/08/06/even-harder/
Moho, moho, moho…you are certainly a very bright and literate person with a clearly educated mind…but step away from the keyboard for a moment and look at what you are writing. It is dripping with snobbery and elitism; it is crass and narrow; and it reeks of propaganda. I suspect your worldview has no room for the notion (and reality) that the numbers of sophisticated, educated conservatives are legion, and the majority of the “illiterati” are indeed the prime constituency of the post-1968 Democrat Party.
Seriously,
Nice stat-grab. This nine-year old WHO report breaks down the ranking’s components and surprise, surprise, the good ole’ US of A ranked first in “Responsiveness” and first in “per capita expenditures.” Of course, our open borders and forty years’ worth of welfare has made many a slob out of us and thus we did slip in the “healthfulness” component. But, for those scoring at home, especially when confronting a serious ailment or disease, “responsiveness” is a pretty nice thing to count on, regardless of how fat the AFL-CIO union thug is getting next door. Seriously, please try again…
The Cap and trade and the health Plan is plain and simple…the government takeover of individual rights and liberties. The corruption from the top down in this new administration is appaling. Their spend, spend, and spend will criple this nation. Just say no to these arrogrant snobs.
It is dripping with snobbery and elitism; it is crass and narrow; and it reeks of propaganda.
If I knew I’d have to deal with this kind of sobbing whining, I might have thought twice about writing it–you’re right. The only thing that bundles you together with the idiots that now make up the majority of your party is your tendency to self-pity and your inability to view anything that happens in the world outside of your preferred role as victim of an unkind world.
We still have the difficulty of recission of policies and inability to get ANY insurance based on pre-existing conditions. I would adopt your proposals, plus make some kind of health insurance obligatory – like car insurance. In exchange for the increased pool, tighten regulations to make sure individual policy holders are treated like large employer plans right now (no exclusion for pre-exising, no recission, etc.). For the poor folks perhaps some kind of voucher program. This would give us the greatest freedom and the greatest choice without making the government the “sole purchaser” of health care (which is where these currently proposals will likely lead) with the power to manipulate every aspect of the market from wages to research dollars . . . and without granting said government the right to make life and death decisions over our lives. For when the market becomes schelerotic, how will you make a new deal with someone else?. This is our best chance to preserve a fairly free and independent market which is still capable of innovation, free choice and just compensation.
We can write all the nice letters in the world to our elected officials protesting the take-over of health care but can we ever compete with the AFL-CIO now strongarming and threatening Democrats that don’t want to follow Obama?
Chicago thug politics at it’s very best by a Hoffa offspring no less. All Hail Obama (or else).
http://briefingroom.thehill.com/2009/08/19/hoffa-blue-dogs-making-a-big-mistake-on-healthcare/
#26 – moho said “That’s exactly what people who were sick of Republican incompetence and corruption did last year! About sixty percent, or more, of the population. That’s why its exactly the Republican agenda that’s being rejected. So go for it! Vote them out with the illiterate and ignorant 30% of the electorate that backs you.”
I agree that people were sickened by corruption, and overspending and elected a guy who has tripled the damage Bush did to the government debt, and wants to add another 100% to the current debt with more big government in regards to health care. How proud you must be, and you bring nothing to the debate.
The left must be pretty nervous as they are clearly dispatching useless trolls to conservative sites.
15. Seriously: said “Did anyone see Jon Stewart completely dominate Glenn Beck the other night? He showed clips of Beck recently saying we are in danger of losing the best health care in the world. He then showed Beck about a year ago talking about health care crisis. That the system is broken and people are getting shoved out the door. It just goes to show conservatives either lie or don’t know what they are talking about when it comes to healthcare. Debating things like death panels and tort reform just show how off base you people are.”
I suspect you and moho watch the same programs to reach your conclusions. Beck and Stewart are not scholary resources, and using them to support or belittle a position is folly.
TO Peter the Bubblehead: Earth. And you?
Good God Moho, is that the best you can do? You do make it sound like you would want all those who disagree with you put into reeducation camps. I just wonder if you would care if any ever came out.
Whether it be a republican or democrat administration you will always find a crisis in order to get legislation passed. Never fails. In 1993 Bill Clinton gave his crisis spin, where if healthcare reform was not passed that year the economy would never recover. Wrong.
I have a degree in risk management, and I can tell you first hand that providing health insurance in a competitive all encompassing manner, is an extremely difficult process that has been with us for a long time. Nothing has changed.
Back in 1986, I was a Vice President for a Third Party Administrator contracted to administer a newly formed health benefit trust for a statewide association of general contractors. Mistakenly, I acted in the capacity of underwriter and marketeer for the group product. Needless to say, my marketing skills overwhelmed my underwriting skills, and within 2 years the fund went bust. This was a self-insured trust, so it did not take long for our reserves to be exhausted.
If every insurance company operated like this particular trust did it would bring down the entire U.S. economy, therefore this is why insurance companies have to be the bad guys many times to insureds or potential insureds, and be responsible, unlike the U.S. Government.
The irresponsiblity of AIG is a good example of the fundamental principles required of all insurers to maintain standards of risk, and never wavering. AIG may never recover from their excessive risk taking.
It is my understanding that the British Nationalized Health Plan is the third largest employer in the world, therefore if we did the same it would make the U.S. plan most likely the largest employer eventually.
This is the crux. Government employees vote Democrat, and more Democrat employees assures Democrat victories. Nuff said.
Omar,
That is some creative thinking. It would be interesting to see what the accountants would have to say about the idea. It sounds like a foundation that could be built upon.
I would like to add a plank if I may. The person applying would need to proove US citizenship or produce a valid green card in order to obtain coverage.
Oh my, the liberals actually think Jon Stewart is giving them the “news”? That truly explains everything doesn’t it? No wonder they’re willing to worship at the MSDNC altar.
“Spoon some news in our empty heads please kind sirs,” the sheeple plead.
Yet more whining, Michael? Do you want a tissue to wipe your eyes? That’s okay…there, there, little victim-man, the big scary guvament won’t come to take you to those nasty re-education camps. I mean, for a re-education camp to have any purpose, you would have had to have been educated in something other than lunatic fantasies in the first place.
Michael and others
Ain’t worth wrestling in the mud with pig/trolls, you get really dirty and the pig/trolls like it.
Readers,
If you want to learn more about why health care costs are so high go read Steven Malanga’s article “How Free Health Care Got So Expensive” at Real Clear Markets.
The article lays out some of the psychology and market distortion that contribute to the cost expansion. The government could positively influence cost, but not by an option.
As others have pointed out President Obama doesn’t really care about cost, he cares about control and power for his friends. If he cared about cost he would be listening to people like Malanga and proposing a bill that would attract bipartisan support. But that wouldn’t fit the Alinskyite’s political bias.
Samizdat–> Like the rest of your ilk, what you’re afraid of is a discourse with someone not stuck in the cone of silence that your movement creates around its less critically aware base. The greatest danger is for Republicans to consider opposing views legitimate, because it wouldn’t take long for them to realize just how absurd most of the content on this website is. It would follow that the backlash once they realize how cynically Republican party apparatchiks take advantage of their innocence would be jaw-dropping. That’s why I’m a troll; that’s why everything but Redstate, Pajamas Media, Rush Limbaugh and Fox are liberal organs. The last thing you want is an open conversation with your opponents. You seem to fear facing me in an argument more than most of them, and you’re trying to infect them with your pant-crapping fear. But it’s apparently not working. The fact that people here keep engaging me, means that you’re not doing you job.
The moral case against socialized medicine is broader than just the usual religion-based objections — there’s no moral right to health care as such, as Leonard Peikoff explains…
Read the full article, here: http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=5123
Kim at 47,
I have always looked at the problems of socialized medicine from a practical point of view. I just didn’t approach the problem from a moral stand point. Just goes to show how incomplete my thinking was.
Vicious in theory, lets see could that relate to choking off innovation and rationing? Could it relate to government delay causing death and suffering that would be avoided in the market place? Could it relate to the government intentionally preventing options and alternatives?
Boy o boy was my thinking incomplete. Great points Kim and Mr Peikoff. Learn something every day about the immorality of socialism and the Marxists. Keep on educating Kim. I look forward to your future posts.
A well written and well thought out letter. The author gives the proponents of this disaster a chance to explain themselves, but will surely be disappointed as the reality hits that this is just another leftist Ponzi scheme devised to undermine America’s unique culture of independence, freedom, and responsibility.
As time goes by, these crpto-Marxists are losing their ability to fool people. This is why they are in such a hurry. Lets hope we get our collective act together soon and send these leftists packing before they do much more damage.
Moho:
I have three questions for you. These are honest questions not meant to ridicule or demean. I really want to know from whence you are coming.
1. What are you afraid of? The Socialists have control of all three branches of government, yet you act like you lost. If socialism will actually usher in a utopian society, then even the small minority who oppose it will benefit and become enlightened.
2. Why do you hate so much? Your letters are filled with venom – as are some of the replies. Hate is not an argument. It is also never the answer.
3. What is your objective in constantly appearing on a website in which you disagree with a vast majority of contributors? Obviously, it not to win friends and influence people. You do not win converts or arguments by name calling and demeaning your opponent. You are also not trying to convince people of the error of their ways. That is accomplished by following well established rules of debate.
The fundamental issue I’m having with all this is that nobody is really arguing that the heath care system in this country doesn’t need some sort of serious repairing, especially in terms of its bizarre and relentless cost escalations; and Obama has a plan that’s at least a first step in fixing it; but the discussion so far regarding it has been dominated by malicious, dumbass charges and rumors. If the right had an ounce of integrity, it would focus on what the bill actually proposes and then do some honest checking to see it makes sense, and if not, then how could it be improved, and maybe even adding something like tort reform, while *likely* not too effective, still has a chance of turning out to be a good idea.
Instead, though, we only have a bunch of PITA babies knocking their food and drink off the table and going “No!!!”
Al-Shifa pharmaceutical factory.
Discuss.
“Hey, Mr. Tambourine man play a song for me….”
38. BC wrote:
TO Peter the Bubblehead: Earth. And you?
Peter writes: Then perhaps you can explain how on your version of ‘Earth’, you can possibly save any money in health care with the plan outlined in HR3200? How do you explain that the non-partisian Congressional Budget Office has said this plan will increase our debt by close to $1Trillion more dollars (on top of the explosion of debt The Won has already granted us in his ultimate wisdome /sarc).
Perhaps you can explain how the conservative lan for tort reform, reigning in the ambulance chasers like John Edwards who make more than any insurance company executive, would NOT save the public money, as you lamely try to claim without any facts to back it up in post #6.
Please, I am interested in hearing how things like this work on your ‘Earth.’ Because those of us here in the REAL Earth would love to know.
#32 Karlinsync: “the cap and trade and the health plan is simple….the government takeover of individual rights and liberties. The corruption from the top down in this new administration is appalling……”
Think you forgot the takeover of rights & liberties by Cheney/DeLay/Lott in 2001 & 02, also known as the Patriot Act. I didn’t hear a lot of so-called conservatives opposing that, although I did. I never quite understood how strip searching 80 year old grandmothers at airports was going to make me feel safer.
#42 AThinkingPerson: “Oh my, the liberals actually think that Jon Stewart is giving them the ‘news’……” Yes, just like a lot of self proclaimed conservatives think Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter are giving them the “news.” Got real news for you: all three are entertainers who care more about enhancing their personal bank accounts than they care about providing the “news” of the day.
Gramps Cane,
There are a couple of commentators who visit regularly who name call and debate dishonestly. By debate dishonestly I mean they lie and will say virtually anything to advance their agenda. I will identify a couple of them as Moho, BC, Now and Then, The Shadow and Vivo.
Each of them is Marxist to a varying degree. Any opponent who dares to question their logic or argument is stupid.
It isn’t worth debating these people. They employ the ad hominem attack as their primary weapon of choice, as they lack the intellectual honesty to employ much else. It is part of their DNA, I guess.
As I said before in another post, don’t wrestle in the mud with the troll/pigs, you get dirty and the troll/pigs like it.
Gramps:
1. I’ve never characterized my comments in terms of fear. So I can’t answer your first question.
2. I’m careful before I begin to hate people. It took me eight years to begin to hate you people. Eight years of watching you swallow every lie the Bush administration offered you while he took us into two disastrous wars. Eight years of watching you support him while he dismantled the last remaining areas of government that made sense, and infected the rest with incompetence and bumbling patronage. I didn’t really start hating you people until you began your tirade against Obama. And its not because I support Obama, its because I’m muslim, my parents are from another country. There are millions of us. When you circulated your loathesome discourse about his being a secret muslim, about his birth certificate not being authentic, you were talking about all of us. Now, you think your asinine accusations of socialism can disguise your bigotry. Look, you idiots, we’ve lived in a semi-socialist country for 70 years; get used to it.
3. I don’t do this to win you people who post here over as converts, I do this to humiliate you in front of others who may be unclear about their own support for this absurdity. Those who don’t have strong enough opinions to post comments and wonder if these ridiculous accusations could be true. Those who don’t bother following the links to see if they actually support the arguments, or track down the evidence presented to support them. The fact that it makes me feel better to out your stupidity is just a bonus.
Each of them is Marxist to a varying degree.
Samizdat: While I’m not surprised at the cowardice shown by your comment, I am surprised at how non-chalantly you invoke the McCarthy era. I mean, especially because part of your strategy is to constantly whine about how we’re in a new McCarthy era, where you poor victims are being hunted by black helicopters. If you won’t debate me because I’m a Marxist, only one of two possibilities are likely: a)you’re afraid that your propositions won’t stand up against Marxist scrutiny b)you don’t favor open discourse.
Of course, I’m not a Marxist, but the accusation allows you to justify your pant-crapping fear.
55. SteveB/Colorado wrote:
Think you forgot the takeover of rights & liberties by Cheney/DeLay/Lott in 2001 & 02, also known as the Patriot Act.
Peter writes: Please explain to all of us here EXACTLY what rights YOU, personally, lost as a restult of the Patriot Act. This I want to hear.
Unlike HR3200, which would strip me of my right to choose whether or night I want to buy insurance, strip me of my right to choose what company I may buy insurance from once the law goes into effect, strips me of my right to privacy as the government would suddenly be granted all rights into my financial and banking information… I could go on and on.
Now, please, tell me what rights YOU lost due to the Patriot Act, aside from the right to fly airplanes loaded with innocent passengers into tall buildings.
I swear something on this sight edits posts when they are submitted somehow, because I know for a fact I did NOT write ‘whether or night’, but ‘whether or not’ instead.
Commentators,
Take a look at “Don’t Like Obamacare, Here’s an Alternative” By Shawn Tully which is a Fortune article published today at RealClearPolitics. Lays out a thoughtful, non public option, elegantly simple way of problem solving our major healthcare issues. Four pages long instead of 1018 and completely comprehensible,unlike Obamacare.
I believe I represent many conservative voices when I say that this plan offers an attractive alternative to the immoral government takeover being proposed by the lefties who control Congress. If you blanch at immoral go read Kim’s previous post and the Piekoff analysis contained therein.
The elements of the Tully plan are already largely in place and would require little bureauocracy to implement. One big problem for the trolls, it doesn’t increase the control of the government over the people and it isn’t a socialist “solution”.
Margaret Thatcher was correct when she said that the solutions to everyday problems are conservative.This is yet another example of the correctness of that timeless statement.
Trolls, see if you can critique Tully without calling some one names or stupid. Lots of luck.
Bubblehead–> noticed the same thing. Read your posts closely, they even do it to the faithful.
Samizdat: The idea that a briefer set of policy directives is better for a multi-trillion dollar economy, than a more involved one has to be the stupidest thing I’ve read throughout these last years. In your world, briefer may be better, but that’s because you apparently understand nothing about the way the our nation works.
Interesting blog, but it’s missing an important part of the equation: when looking at the generational component re. health care reform, all generatins need to be factored in, including Generation Jones (born 1954-1965, between the Boomers and Generation X).
Google Generation Jones, and you’ll see it’s gotten a ton of media attention, and many top commentators from many top publications and networks (Washington Post, Time magazine, NBC, Newsweek, ABC, etc.) now specifically use this term. In fact, the Associated Press’ annual Trend Report forecast the Rise of Generation Jones as the #1 trend of 2009. Here’s a page with a good overview of recent media interest in GenJones: http://generationjones.com/2009latest.html
It is important to distinguish between the post-WWII demographic boom in births vs. the cultural generations born during that era. Generations are a function of the common formative experiences of its members, not the fertility rates of its parents. Many experts now believe it breaks down more or less this way:
DEMOGRAPHIC boom in babies: 1946-1964
Baby Boom GENERATION: 1942-1953
Generation Jones: 1954-1965
Generation X: 1966-1978
yoo-hoo, moho, (as I figuratively tap your shoulder)…
that little chip on your shoulder seems to be getting heavier with each passing comment…take a deep breath and calm yourself down. Us neanderthals have a difficult enough time grasping the brutal logic and rapier wit of your musings when you aren’t frothing at the mouth; now that you are all riled, its nigh impossible to understand you…
How’s this for a starting point:
Obama is tripling down on every bad Bush policy (which was in fact most of them) and is discarding the few that actually worked. It is this reason that his poll numbers are sinking with that elusive group of Americans that call themselves “independents.” Now, your turn…
According to Greenpeace 3% to 8% growth in the economy and the burdgeoning world population is the reason for a much needed gov controlled health care plan plus a gov controlled energy plan. In other words, stifle economic growth and weed out the population. Seems to me this is the Obama Plan and he is busily executing it.
Us neanderthals have a difficult enough time grasping the brutal logic and rapier wit of your musings when you aren’t frothing at the mouth; now that you are all riled, its nigh impossible to understand you…
How’s this for a starting point:
I don’t mind repeating myself on this issue:
I don’t consider myself smart. I’m probably of average intelligence. I don’t have a degree. When I call you people stupid, its because you show a demonstrably below average cognitive ability, and a complete lack of critical thinking skills. This is what most average people think of the kinds of thinking espoused here, even many Republicans themselves. The bleed off from the Republican party–what made them independents, instead of Republicans–was the growing agglomeration of stupid people in the Republican party, and the leadership’s desire to keep focusing on their gullibility because they lack any ideas. I don’t think that the majority of people who come to this site looking for answers are necessarily in that group–they probably never post a comment. I spend time here in order to show those people how absurd the ideas that currently fuel Republican ideology are. Its not hard to do so, which is what scares you all so much.
Question; How much will ObamaCare cover for mental health and treatment? There’s going to be an explosion in mental health issues if ObamaCare becomes law! Not that it isn’t already needed for the Soldiers of Obama marching to this music now
Superb letter.
I dearly wish that the Republicans in Congress understood all the points in this letter and could/would articulate them. Maybe then they would be seen as something other than just naysayers.
Steve Forbes made some of these same points on Mike Gallagher’s radio show this morning.
57. Moho:
“1. I’ve never characterized my comments in terms of fear. So I can’t answer your first question.
2. I’m careful before I begin to hate people. It took me eight years to begin to hate you people. Eight years of watching you swallow every lie the Bush administration offered you while he took us into two disastrous wars. Eight years of watching you support him while he dismantled the last remaining areas of government that made sense, and infected the rest with incompetence and bumbling patronage. I didn’t really start hating you people until you began your tirade against Obama. And its not because I support Obama, its because I’m muslim, my parents are from another country. There are millions of us. When you circulated your loathesome discourse about his being a secret muslim, about his birth certificate not being authentic, you were talking about all of us. Now, you think your asinine accusations of socialism can disguise your bigotry. Look, you idiots, we’ve lived in a semi-socialist country for 70 years; get used to it.
3. I don’t do this to win you people who post here over as converts, I do this to humiliate you in front of others who may be unclear about their own support for this absurdity. Those who don’t have strong enough opinions to post comments and wonder if these ridiculous accusations could be true. Those who don’t bother following the links to see if they actually support the arguments, or track down the evidence presented to support them. The fact that it makes me feel better to out your stupidity is just a bonus.”
Excellent post, Moho.
Republicans had absolutely no complaints about the Patriot Act, a sweeping Fascist/ Statist piece of legislation that actually was unconstitutional (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20999950/), however when it comes to fixing our catastrophic health care system, Republicans immediately begin screaming about Fascism and the Constitution, completely exposing them as morons and hypocrites.
I’ve given up trying to reason with these nutcases. As Barney Frank said to one uneducated health care protestor, “Arguing with you would be like arguing with a dining room table”.
And he’s right. The core of the angry GOP cannot be reasoned with. They gleefully exist in an echo chamber of misinformation. They get their News from FOX, which is nothing more than a mouthpiece for the conservative movement and a delivery system for GOP talking points.
And since the GOP is committed to lying continually and consistently on everything from the Recovery Act to health care reform and even whether or not the President was born in this country, the end result is a GOP voter base – roughly 30% of the US population – that believes a whole hose of ridiculous jaw-dropping bull****, such as that the president is an illegal alien/ secret fascist/secret Muslim/product of affirmative action, that there are FEMA camps set up to detain conservatives, and that health care reform will kill seniors.
I agree with you completely that we will not be able to change their minds. They have abandoned reason, and have shunned actual discourse in favor of screaming and carrying guns. They won’t listen to us because they reflexively hate us. They have been carefully taught by the Hannitys, Becks and Laimbaughs that progressive thought is a cancer, that liberals are nothing more than deadbeats with psychological disorders, and that the Democrat Party is an evil Socialist criminal enterprise that uses labor unions as personal strike forces.
How is a liberal supposed to have a reasoned debate with a conservative who, from the outset, sees the liberal as nothing but a cancerous, subhuman leech?
“Well, the one thing, and there are many, but one thing that we can all do is stop assuming that the way to beat them is with better policy ideas right now….To us, bipartisanship is them being forced to agree with us after we politically have cleaned their clocks and beaten them. And that has to be what we’re focused on.”
- Rush Limbaugh, from his speech at the annual CPAC conference.
How is one supposed to achieve “bipartisanship” when the Conservative view of bipartisanship is the Democrats being “forced to agree”?
Clearly, it is impossible.
The Right declared war on us, and it’s time the Left started accepting that we’re in this war whether we decide to defend ourselves or get massacred. That is why we must abandon this myth that there ever was “bi-partisanship” or that there ever can be such a thing, when Conservatives at their core hate liberals.
We cannot reason with them any more than the moderates and liberals in 1930s Germany could reason with the Nazi Party, so we must do what every good and reasonable American must when confronted by hatred, bigotry, lies and intimidation – we must defeat it.
48. samizdat,
Thank you for your encouragement. I’m happy to pass on intellectual ammunition when I find it.
I share your enthusiasm for learning new things too. We have some amazing minds here on PJM.
#16 Seriously,
That ranking was from 2000. This is nearly a decade later. Did you even read what your url said at the top?
“The World Health Organization’s ranking of the world’s health systems was last produced in 2000, and the WHO no longer produces such a ranking table, because of the complexity of the task. ”
By the way, how are we ranked on education? 15,19 and 14th according to this site: http://www.siteselection.com/ssinsider/snapshot/sf011210.htm. Guess the educational “public option” ain’t looking so good now is it?
70. Dave R. wrote:
Republicans had absolutely no complaints about the Patriot Act, a sweeping Fascist/ Statist piece of legislation that actually was unconstitutional
Peter writes: So of course, being unconstitutional, the Supreme Court agreed it was perfectly legal.
I am beginning to understand the libtards. whenever they use words like ‘unconstitutional,’ what they actually mean is “Something I don’t agree with, no matter if it is legal or not.”
As I challenged some other libtard on another thread here today, please explain, in graphic detail, exactly what freedoms YOU, PERSONALLY, have lost due to the implimentation of the Patriot Act?
The only one I can think of is the loss of being able to fly planes into tall buildings, but you would probably consider that an expression of free speech, wouldn’t you?
More asinine finger pointing. Look, do you actually want to know which countries have the highest murder rates?
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
The top five are Christian countries:
1. Colombia
2. S. Africa
3. Jamaica
4. Venezuela
5. Russian
I’ll add that the first country on that list is the number one recipient of US funding in the Western Hemisphere. The first Muslim country to enter the list doesn’t even come in until number 50, Tunisia, with a murder rate that is one quarter that of the US. Seriously, you people have 0 sense of priorities. No matter how incompetent the Democrats are, they could never equal that of the Republicans.
incompetence of the Republicans…
Medicare and Social Security bankrupt by 2020. Four times balanced the budget since WW II. Who in their right mind would turn over our health system to this group?
Moho
“You are asking these people to believe their lying eyes. We all know that its their gut that does the perception-duties for them. The eyes are just there to keep their little brains from sliding out of their skulls when they bend over.”
This is the first HIGHLY intellectual posting from the brainpower jugernaught Moho! Most people would expect an intelligent person to rebut the position held by the author, or perhaps offer alternative. But Moho takes uberintelligence to a whole new level and simply attacks the people on the forum. Brilliant!
Then further down the comments reminds us how truely omnipotent his powers for thought truely are! Thanks for the reminder. We the readers here on PJM are truely in awe of your skills at debate!
Brian, thanks for reposting that. That’s the best put down of you people I’ve come up with in a while.
The silence from the libtards about what rights they lost due tot he Patriot Act is deafening.
From the original post:
“Ms. Lowey, however, replied with a 2 ½ page response in which she detailed her understanding of the need for health care reform and presented a case for the plan as it now stands in the House version. I was impressed and pleased with the thoroughness of her response and grateful to have an opportunity to engage in what I hope to be a meaningful dialogue absent much of the hype that so often passes for discussions.”
We never got to see Lowey’s letter, only Cortes’ response. I’m a little curious how she defended the plan.
Bob: “It will guaranty the type of waiting lists and lower cure rates that are the hallmarks of the Canadian and British national health plans.”
Do you mean to say that adopting a health care system closer to that of Canada or the UK will result in a negative change for the U.S.? That may be true, the U.S. is a different country with different needs.
But if you’re saying that the health care system in the U.S., as it is now, is better than the system in Canada or the UK, I’d like to see the evidence you have to support it. As a Canadian, I’d be concerned – maybe I’d even begin lobbying for Canada to adopt a system that’s more like yours.
It also may be true that the majority of Americans want good health care for themselves, at the expense of the minority who can’t afford it. Believing that is your prerogative. Personally, I believe that the rich do not deserve better health care than the middle class, and the middle class don’t deserve better health care than the poor. But that may be a very un-American belief.
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