The Meaning of the Obama Visit to Israel and U.S.-Israel Relations in Obama’s Second Term
At the same time, though, the idea — again, prevalent in mass media coverage — that Netanyahu must “moderate” to form a government is not true. First, a very important lesson: ignore everything said by Israeli politicians and media during the coalition-forming period, because it is invariably misleading. This is what experience has shown virtually without exception.
Now, Netanyahu’s basic choice is to bring together at least two of the following three parties: the traditional liberal Yesh Atid led by Yair Lapid; the Sephardic religious Shas, and the right-wing Ha-Bayit Ha-Yehudi, led by Naftali Bennett. This is like the story of how you get the fox, the chicken, and the grain across a river without something getting eaten. It is very difficult.
Yesh Atid has called for Netanyahu to work hard to get talks with the Palestinians going again. This has been treated as some major move of pressure. Of course not. That’s what Lapid is going to say and should say. And Netanyahu should also say — as he has done hundreds of times in the last four years — that he wants to get negotiations going.
That does not deal, however, with how many unilateral concessions Israel is willing to give to do so, and whether the Palestinian Authority — now believing it is victorious from having the UN recognize it as a state — would go along. Everyone knows this. So to say that Israel should try to get negotiations going again is equivalent to someone in America saying that it is important to improve the economy.
Yet the reality of coalition negotiations is this: Lapid doesn’t like Bennett and vice-versa; Lapid and Bennett don’t like Shas; Netanyahu doesn’t like Bennett and knows that adding him would create international costs. And by the way, would Bennett enter a government that started out by announcing a long freeze in construction?
So it isn’t as easy as mainstream conventional wisdom makes it seem.
It is also suggested the PA leader Mahmoud Abbas might actually give up something to get negotiations going. Like what? Perhaps giving up lawsuits against Israel — which is now supposedly occupying the territory of an internationally recognized Palestinian state, allegedly achieved without any agreement with Israel — in the international court.
Well, maybe. But Abbas faces massive political pressure in his society that far exceeds anything Netanyahu faces. What will he get for giving up what he has claimed as a trump card, a great victory? He certainly doesn’t fear pressure from Obama. Unlike Israel, the Palestinians can do anything they want and not face costs or even public criticism from the American president.
obama will hold Israels’ coat and sy ‘let you and him fight’, tsk, tsking at the meanness of the Joooos.
pleeze. just phone it in. nobody needs or wants this oily guy slipping and sliding around on his “promises” to israel, while he sends F-16′s to morsi who is murdering egyptians. now, with the help of 5,000 hamas killers to murder protestors.
barry, stay away.
Woodrow Wilson’s internationalism was also grounded in an anti-materialist, antisemitic world view that promoted the organic society, with international cooperation substituting for militant nationalism of the kind he described as the cause of the first world war. I contrasted Obama’s internationalism with Wilson’s here: http://clarespark.com/2010/09/23/woodrow-wilsons-internationalism-vs-obamas/. It is significant that for a time Lenin supported Wilsonian internationalism, and today the Woodrow Wilson Center is a highly thought of think tank.
After all, the sum total of international wisdom on the now-dead (but pretended to be alive) “peace process” is that this means Israel giving up things and getting nothing in return.
Wrong. It means Israel giving up things and getting blown up and sanctioned in returned. The situation isn’t static — it’s not like we make concessions and everything stays the same. No — the more concessions we make the worse off we are — the more assets we give away, the more terror, rocket attacks and international rebuke and BDS threats we get.
The world never really meant peace. I don’t believe it anymore. To them the “peace process” was always euphemism for creating an Arab-Palestinian state at any cost to appease the Muslims. If it could be done by peace, good. If the Arabs refuse peace, refuse to accept a Jewish state in any borders, then it’ll be done without peace. And if that will lead to more and more and more war and more and more and more attacks on our civilians that’s perfectly fine with them, as long as Israel doesn’t retaliate too hard, of course, since that will piss off the Muslims. That’s what the word “peace” in this context always meant to them. It never meant peace. That is why they never make any demands to the Arabs, including keeping ANY of their commitments or recognizing Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state. Now they even demand Israel to make concessions to even get the Arabs to talk to us at all about the new state they’ll get in return for more war on Israel. Even just for talking we have to make concessions.
Pnina, your argument is valid and legitimate. But, the Arab-Israeli conflict originated long ago, from the marital drama between Abraham’s two wives, the Matriarch Sara and the Egyptian princess Hagar. Thousands of years have passed, and yet that conflict is still unresolved.
Please read the Book of Genesis, Chapter 16. There, you will find the true origins of the Arab-Israeli conflict. God Almighty’s angel asked Hagar, mother of Ishmael, why she was running away. Contemplate Hagar’s answer, and God’s promise to Hagar.
Next, please read Chapter 21 of the Book of Genesis. Reread why Sara sent away Abraham’s firstborn son Ishmael. Also, take note of Abraham’s reaction. Then you shall know the reason why the Arab-Israeli conflict will not end. The Arabs are faithful to their forefather Abraham and his firstborn son Ishmael. They want their rightful share in Abraham’s legacy. Who could blame them?
I hope my message will help ease the pain of the Jewish people, as only the truth of God will set you free.
“They want their rightful share in Abraham’s legacy. Who could blame them?”
Who could blame them? And so, sitting on 99% of Middle East land; and numbering in population “like the stars in the sky and sand on the shore”; and holding the world by its balls because of their oil; and having global opinion on their side … is not enough of their “rightful share”? So, what, exactly, is the rightful share of Abraham’s other son?
To both sides, this is about God, and God doesn’t care about property rights, oil, or popular opinion. God gives and God takes away. Both Judaism and Islam arose from God’s blessings to Abraham. I want both sides to wake up, together with the entire Christian world.
The Jewish Soul and the Arab Heart are the two halves of Abraham’s long-lost legacy. Tragically, both were separated by women, when the Egyptian princess Hagar and the Hebrew Matriarch Sarah fought over Abraham’s affection. Thousands of years later, after Nazis tortured one half of an ancient people, God led the Hebrews back to their long lost brothers, the sons of Ishmael. Ishmael’s heart beats for Issac’s children in brotherly love, never submitting conscienceless so not to offend Islam, but always in unison with Israel’s pain. So, both suffer from mass denial and horrible pain, and that’s what makes the ongoing war so ugly. This war is about brother fighting brother.
The similarities are so amazing that there’s a beauty behind it all. Both sides believe in One True God. Both have had golden ages and dark ages. Both function on a lunar calendar. Both fast during bad times, and give charity during good times. Both have similar dietary laws by only eating Kosher / Halal meat, as both are compassionate. Both pray to God many times each day while facing a certain direction. Both give love to their communities, as both are family orientated. Both have a beautiful language that reads from right to left, and both preach the word of One God to their neighbors. I say this can only be the work of God.
If God doesn’t care about property rights, then He would not have proclaimed Eretz Yisrael the eternal possession of Abraham’s descendants through Isaac. There would be no Torah prophesy of ingathering of the exiles, and there would be no suggestion of messianic times during which the children of Israel will be returned to Jerusalem with a rebuilt Temple. If you want to go by scripture, then property rights is a pretty central theme.
As for “Ishmael’s heart [beating] for Issac’s (sic) children in brotherly love” … errr, not if you judge what’s in one’s heart by observing one’s words and deeds. And if by “Both give love to their communities, as both are family orientated”, you mean that both make children in order to send them out to blow themselves up in the hopes that they will take down as many of their brothers (the ones their heart beats for in love) as possible? Then, no, “both” don’t do that. That’s the domain of only one side.
Besides believing in the same God and not eating pork, etc., there are few similarities between the descendants of Ishmael and the descendants of Isaac. Perhaps one day there will be – when they give up their tireless quest to obliterate Israel the Jewish People, and start treating their fellow humans as worthy of life and a place on this planet
Yes, God cares about property rights in some manner. God also said that “Eretz Yisrael” would be truly be redeemed after the Messiah came and did something to lighten up the mood. The idea of families sending their own to become suicide bombers is a very recent invention, a new curse to the world. This curse is a product of modern technology, and never existed until recently. To comprehend, one must consider the full consequences of communal sorrow and pain. Why else does the Arab-Israeli conflict continue, if not for sorrow and pain? All righteous people must step forward and help stop this madness. Think of the children. Arabs and Israelis all want to end this war, but since neither side knows how, both sides will continue fighting? Reject such hopeless negativism! God never commanded everyone to have big egos. All the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim saints throughout history made do with little luxury and much personal suffering. Remember your own history.
There is no prohibition against God-fearing Jews from entering into or worshiping inside mosques. And vice versa, God-fearing Muslims may enter and pray in Jewish houses of worship. That said, why can’t the existing mosques on the Temple Mount not represent the Third Jewish Temple as well? To think otherwise must be selfish. The rewards are already within the physical world, but no one knows how to share anymore? Legal title to property is irrelevant to God.
Healing all the inhabitants of the Holy Land must be a top priority. Therefore, I say that Muslims and Jews must rededicate and rename the entire Temple Mount as sign of peace and unity, and in joint recognition of their shared belief in One God. The has been enough destruction of sacred places dedicated to God to justify any more fighting.
Name changes are a popular theme in the Bible. The Book of Genesis says that that God changed Abram’s name to Abraham. The reason given was because Abraham would be the father of many nations. Renaming the Temple Mount would symbolize that God has many nations who follow him. Abraham named his firstborn son Yishmael, and God himself changed Jacob’s name to Yisrael. (In Hebrew, the language of the Bible, Yishmael and Yisrael phonetically sound very similar. Change a single syllable , and you get the other name.)
I believe that the God of Abraham intended a reward for all who believe in One God, and I refuse to think otherwise. All who preach of One God must be rewarded.
I reject your assertion that “neither side” knows how to end this conflict. If the Arabs want this conflict over, it can happen today. It’s completely in their hands. But the catch is: they have to come to terms with the fact of Israel. Once they come to that uncomfortable-for-them-to-face truth, peace will reign in the Middle East.
” The idea of families sending their own to become suicide bombers is a very recent invention, a new curse to the world. This curse is a product of modern technology”
Faulty logic. Suicide bombing is the product of a warped world view, not technology. Technology is the tool used to carry out a violent, life-denying philosophy. (This activity has actually subsided in recent years because it proved a largely ineffective strategy).
The “astonishing” parallels between Judaism and Islam have less to do with mystical brotherhood and much to do with Mohammed basing his new religion on an already ancient one, and claiming it to be the long-lost “original” version.
I mean, really. A New Agey friend of mine once told me with a straight face that the commonalities between Buddhism and ECKANKAR stemmed from the greater antiquity and originality of ECKANKAR.
I happen to not be religious, but if you want to look at it from the religious angle, then god promised Ishmael to make him into a great nation and nothing more. Nowhere in the bible did god promise Ishmael that his descendants will exterminate the Israelites and replace them, nor that his descendants will get the Jewish homeland. Maybe Islam promises the extermination of the Jews (“Judgement Day will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them etc.”), but don’t hang it on the bible.
If the Arabs are indeed the descendants of Ishmael, then they number today about 300 million people who rule 22 states strectching over territories 500 times larger than Israel, and they also have a large portion of the world’s natural resources. In addition they also control a sizable portion of the Jewish homeland in Jordan and could also get nearly all of Judea and Samaria plus additional lands from Israel if they were willing to make peace. So I say the Arabs got more than their fair share, and god’s promise to make Ishmael into a great nation was fulfilled in full. Their claim to replace the Jews and take Israel has no basis whatsoever in the bible.
The religious aspect of the conflict, which is indeed the dominant aspect, comes from Islam and its aspiration to replace all other religions. The thought of kuffar, designated by Islam to live as humiliated dhimmies under Islamic rule, becoming sovereign in a land once conquered and ruled by Islam is intolearable in Islamic theological terms and requires jihad until the land goes back to Islamic rule and the kuffar are subdued. War can be avoided only tactically as long as the Muslims believe themselves to be too weak to win, but peace can only be temporary because according to Islam any land once conquered by force by Muslims belongs to all generations of Muslims till Judgement Day.
Pnina, we both believe in personal freedom. Overall, I agree with your approach. My comments are to add to your own understanding, and are friendly in nature.
1) There’s a difference between Arabs and Islam. The term “Islam” includes other ethnicities, such as Turks, Persians, Indonesians, etc. The term “Arab” is inclusive of Christians, Jews, and atheists in addition to the Muslim majority.
2) The vast majority of Arab-held land is desert wastes and thus uninhabitable to humans. It’s impossible for the Arabs to do anything constructive with most of the land. That’s not a fair argument.
3) The call for genocide and extermination is completely inappropriate as well as wasteful as a matter of principle. Consider the Bible and the Koran as sometimes talking in general terms, but never personal. The extremists will eventually calm down if everything else settles down. Right now, the Jihadis have nothing to lose. Their economy is bad, their leaders are despots, and their media is government propaganda.
4) Natural resources are easily exchanged. Habitable land isn’t. In a final Arab-Israeli peace plan, Israel will demand a percentage of Arab natural resources in exchange for access to land. After all, oil is plenty, and habitable land is scarce. When Israel demands oil and natural resources in exchange for land, Arab support for Palestinian property rights will dampen. But, the formula that Israel will offer, such as X% of Arab oil in exchange of leasing the West Bank for X amount of years, will lead to a compromise.
4) The Arabs and the Muslim world don’t trust Israelis. So, what does Israel do? Simple: Israel must demand to make the Haaj, because no Muslim will commit violence while making the Haaj. It’ll be like back in the times of Abraham. Send Zahava Gal-On and Shimon Perez and Tzipi Livni first, they’ll do it because they believe in peace with the Arabs with a passion (or so they say). Start a campaign in Israel to have President Obama lead an Israeli delegation to Mecca for the Haaj, as part of the Obama peace plan. Obama will do it if Israel wants to. It will bring a lot of respect for Israelis in the eyes of the arabs.
“Israel will demand a percentage of Arab natural resources in exchange for access to land.”
I mean … this is just the height of absurdity. Israel was a barren wasteland before 1948. Go read Mark Twain’s description of it if you need verification. And now you want the Arab world to have access to this speck of turf because the Jews made something of it? Now that’s chutzpah. One might even think you were advocating a one-state solution to the conflict! And then with your suggestion of Israelis making the Haaj – one might conclude that you demand the Jews convert to Islam! After all, don’t you have to be Muslim to be allowed to make the Haaj?
Here’s a novel idea: live and let live.
1. The overwhelming majority of Arabs are Muslim, which is why Islamic law and worldview apply to the Arab-Israeli conflict, as well as Arab nationalism which is a very aggressive type of nationalism (ask the Kurds, Berbers, Assyrians, Copts, Nubians etc.). But it’s not only the Arabs, but most of the Muslim world that wants to see Israel annihilated for religious reasons — Iran isn’t Arab. The majority of Middle Eastern Christians are not Arab, but define their national/ethnic identity as Assyrian, Aramaic, Copt, Nubian and other identities. And the idea that Middle Eastern Jews are Arab is a modern idea pertaining mostly to pan-Arab nationalism and a few silly Jews, and not accepted by the overwhelming majority of Middle Eastern Jews. In the writings of Middle Eastern Jews throughout the centuries the Jews were always seen as a separate and distinct non-Arab nation.
2. The vast majority of Israel’s land is desert land. Even more of it was desert land and swamps before the Israelis inveneted technologies to cultivate arid land and optimize crops. Israeli land isn’t different from the rest of the Middle East — it’s the attitude of its people that is different. Israel is a living proof that it’s possible to do constructive things with such land. But one needs positive thinking and determination to invest in life rather than in self-pity, narcissism and destrcution to be able to turn lemons into lemonade.
3. And when they revolt against one despot they just replace him with another despot. Nobody can save the Arabs but themselves. To have a good economy they need freedom and creativity, and they need to think hard and work hard to improve things, not to elect new despots and be fanatics and rely on the government for bread. Doing the latter is a recipe for disaster. Too much control and not enough education for enough of the people is bad for the economy and for any kind of development. Only the Arabs can change the trajectory of their own societies. Nobody can change it for them. They need to take responsibility for their own fate, just like the Jews did, and stop blaming outsiders for the sorry state of their societies. Blaming outsiders will not solve their problems. If Israel is destroyed or not is of no consequence to their future. The tiny and mostly arid land of Israel cannot feed them. Israel is powered by technology, not natural resources. If they’ll exterminate the source of that technology Israel will just go back to being that tiny stinking desert in the backend of Syria nobody cares about. Instead they should learn from Israeli technology and become a success story themselves, but they boycott Israeli technology. Their choice and their loss.
4. Israel will not demand Arab oil for land, and even if it did no one will take such demands seriously.
4 [sic]. Non-Muslims are not allowed in Mecca. If Israelis will demand to enter Mecca the Muslims will see it as an attack on Islam’s holly of holliness, which will intensify jihad. Israelis don’t trust Arabs for obvious reasons — the Arabs try to destroy Israel for decades now and are not willing to compromise. What should the Arabs do to make the Israelis trust them? Why don’t they have their own Zehava Gal’on or Shimon Peres dedicated to peace? Why do they teach jihad to their children in their schools and media? Don’t you think this is the real impediment to peace?
Israel will demand a percentage of Arab natural resources in exchange for access to land.”
I mean … this is just the height of absurdity. Israel was a barren wasteland before 1948. Go read Mark Twain’s description of it if you need verification. And now you want the Arab world to have access to this speck of turf because the Jews made something of it? Now that’s chutzpah. One might even think you were advocating a one-state solution to the conflict! And then with your suggestion of Israelis making the Haaj – one might conclude that you demand the Jews convert to Islam! After all, don’t you have to be Muslim to be allowed to make the Haaj?
Here’s a novel idea: live and let live.
I don’t see why Israel can’t lease Nablus to the Arabs. Better than forcing them out. I think Israel can and should improvise, since nothing else has worked. Jews don’t have to convert, Islam and Judaism are compatible. Plus, wouldn’t you want to see Israel’s left-wing do something except talk about peace and then do nothing?
As for the arab world having access to Israel, why not? They don’t have to be citizens, but they should be allowed some access. Residency perhaps? They can pay taxes and contribute to Israel too! Better than living under Assad. Put it this way, the Arab street would beg and beg for anyone to save them from American and Russian weapons plaguing the Arab countries. Also, isn’t it funny how Jews live all over the world, and have citizenship in so many countries, yet Israel is only for Jews (and the 25% arabs who stayed instead of fleeing in 1948)? What kind of system is Israel anyways? Does the rest of the world not grant Jews citizenship? Talk about double standards.
I know enough of the Bible to know that you do not speak for the majority of Israel’s population. Israel’s a kind nation. Israel sends the world help during earthquakes and floods. Shame on you for putting this entire conversation in such a negative light. Read all my posts, and see the common theme of peace between Israel and Ishmael.
To Pnina, Yes, there are many people in the Middle East. The vast majority look at Israel as the only local place with true freedom. Yes, it’s true that a healthy approach to life will bring measurable success. What’s not true is your analogy between a tiny tiny desert within Israel’s borders, and the massive and vast desert throughout the rest of the Middle East. The size difference is too extreme.
The Arabs can not save themselves anymore. Too many drug dealers and too many weapon dealers. All from America, Russia, Iran, etc… in exchange for dollars. Everyone knows that the Muslim Brotherhood was elected because the Qataris funded the dollars to the Muslim Brotherhood. Now what? Back to square one? I tell you, Arabs don’t want to become like Israel (but technology trading will help), Arabs want to get along with Israel so the radicals have no excuses left.
I’m not from the region, but I knew that Israelis believe in One God, that Israelis want peace with the Arabs, and that the Bible is the key to peace. Some call for Jesus, and some call for a miracle. I thought Israel was ready for taking new risks and chances instead of bringing another war on with Iran. Yes, Iran must be stopped, but at what cost?
At heart, I’m a theologian. I love to study religions, and Judaism makes much sense. But as an outsider with some insight, Judaism and Islam appear exactly the same. I didn’t know that the people of Israel didn’t act like the Bible tells them too, this is actually a shock. Secularism has truly permeated the Israeli soul? No respect for those in need? Worrying about who lives where? Why has the Bible survived for so long? Is this the promised land of God? To produce women like Zahava Gal-On and Tzipi Livni, brave and strong women who can challenge men, and then have another woman point out that the Arabs don’t have similar women!? The people of Israel are a light unto the nations, and they shine their light on the faults of others? Israelis must be watching too much of the media, or my message wasn’t strong enough. Why shoot down new ideas with Iron Dome efficiency? Anyone reading the comment page now won’t see the hope I was trying to convey…
It’s just more ugliness. Perhaps Israel should not find peace? Perhaps the world should forget the message of Jesus? To think such a rich culture would succumb to fights over mundane property rights and religious extremism. I’ve lost my will to carry this conversation further.
May you continue your mission to spread only your side of the story, with anger and bitterness. I’m sure you have your own justifications.
You cannot call Israel a “kind nation” and then in the same breath say it’s an antisocial society, a killer of women and children, an aggressor who steals land and makes the Arabs live “in hell”, having learned its practices from the Nazis. So, forgive me if I don’t readily see the ‘theme of peace’ in your posts.
Besides, what is it you really want from Israel? You say how “funny” it is that Jews are citizens of other countries, but that Israel is “only for the Jews” … and then with a wave of your hand, dismiss the huge 20% Arab minority within its borders as if they don’t count. Also, isn’t it funny that Mahmoud Abbas declared “no Jews allowed” in a future Palestinian state? Funny that Palestinians are citizens of Israel, but “Palestine is only for Palestinians”, isn’t it?
P.S. Again, the Haaj is for Muslims only. Mecca is off limits to Jews, so you’ll have to modify that fantasy.
What’s not true is your analogy between a tiny tiny desert within Israel’s borders, and the massive and vast desert throughout the rest of the Middle East. The size difference is too extreme.
No, it isn’t. Check out Wikipedia for the size of Israel vs. the size of the members of the Arab League. Israel’s size is a fraction of one percent of the size of the Arab territories.
- Nobody’s forcing the Arabs out of Nablus. They live there. They just don’t have an independent state there. They have autonomy though, and they could have a state if they accepted the two-states-for-two-peoples solution.
- I didn’t say the Arabs don’t have Arab women like Zehava Gal’on and Tzipi Livni — I said they don’t have people, men or women, dedciated to peace like Gal’on and Shimon Peres.
I think Israel can and should improvise, since nothing else has worked.
Why did nothing work? To make war one side is enough — if one side attacks the other there’s war. To make peace it takes both sides to want it enough to be willing to compromise on less than everything they want. If only Israel is willing to compromise and make concessions — and we did make many concessions and got only terror and rockets in return — it’s not enough for there to be peace.
The reason you, like the West, is leaning so strongly on Israel, but never demanding anything from the Arabs is that you know that only Israel makes concessions and that the Arabs aren’t willing to give up anything. Pressing Israel is the only course of action that produced any kind of movement. If Israel doesn’t make more concessions the “process” stops, nothing happens, because the Arabs won’t move an inch, so you keep on pressing us even though you say for yourself that nothing we did worked.
If you think Judaism is about self-sacrifice to appease aggressors you’re wrong. That might be Christianity, but for some reason Christians never actually behaved like that. If they had they’d be all dead by now. You seek peace where peace is possible, you make efforts and concessions to make peace, but when it turns out that peace is impossible because the other side denies your right to exist you defend yourself, not sacrifice yourself to make them happy. You can’t appease people who want to destroy you, they won’t be appeased unless you’re dead. Neither religion nor common sense command such a thing.
Sometimes people need to learn a lesson to develop. You know, like karma. Sometimes it’s not right to give an aggressor everything they want. That will likely make them more aggressive rather than appease them. Maybe the determined and stubborn existence of Israel will eventually teach the Arabs and Muslims the value of moderation and tolerance. Getting to destroy everything they don’t like will not teach them that.
And yes, you don’t live in this region. I do. You speak from your heart and imagination, not from knowledge. You don’t know Israel and you don’t know the Arabs. You don’t watch or read their media and don’t know what the imams say in the mosques. You don’t know how non-Muslims live under Islamic rule. And if you’d look at opinion polls from the Middle East you’d see the majority of Egyptian Muslims hold religious views consistent with those of the Muslim Brotherhood. That’s why they won the elections there.
And as for Iran — they say Israel will be wiped off the map, and they develop nuclear weapon. 2+2=4. Again, neither religion nor common sense command self-sacrifice to genocidal maniacs.
And yes, this conversation is rather pointless. You basically say Israel should sacrifice itself to appease the Arabs, and those wicked stiff-necked Israelis refuse to sacrifice themselves, which is very frustrating to you and to the West. But is it really evil for a nation to insist on existing, or maybe what’s really evil is to demand that nation ceases to exist to appease those who want it eliminated?
If you really wanted peace, you would be talking about it to the Arabs.
Oh, and the Arabs must save themselves because no one else can do it for them. It’s not that people don’t want to. It’s that we can’t. The world can help the Arabs, but in the end they must find their own way because no one can do it for them.
The reason so much of Ara land is useless, is that they made it so. North
Africa was the granary of the Roman empire. Bedouin agriculture is a self cancelling phrase. Close cropping ruminants( goats and camels ) as well as blind ignorance and thus the inability to maintain ancient irrigation works created the Islamic desert.
I learned this in the 50s, in primary school.
Disclaimer: I’m not a licensed expert, so I may be wrong. These are an expression of my own free speech, nothing more.
International courts have questionable jurisdiction over either side of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Disregarding jurisdiction, international law, as is, is inconclusive to the big Mid-East problem. No international court could reasonably find enough wrongdoing to force a decisive legal verdict on Israel, period. Therefore, there must be a negotiated settlement, to which all sides can agree to.
The base problem actually lies in contracts law (do your own research or ask an attorney). While open to vigorous debate, Israel will eventually win the legal argument in full. Why? Because the Palestinians rejected the UN’s offer in 1948! Palestinians should have said “We accept”, and then declared war on Israel, and that would have preserved their legal claim to a sovereign state. Instead, they declared war without accepting the UN’s offer for a sovereign state, to their own detriment. Meanwhile, Israel accepted, therefore causing the offer to cease to exit. Major unacceptable legal mistake on the arab side, which the arab leaders are desperate to hide from their masses. The arab leaders negligently forfeited all legal claims to sovereignty over the British mandate of Palestine, thus failing their own citizens! When the arab street finds out the truth, those leaders will share the same fate as al-Gaddafi. No wonder the arab leaders were stalling for time, instead of submitting to God and God’s prophet Muhammed. The kings, presidents, and emirs are all living in paranoid fear of the arab street, like President Bashar al-Assad. Since the arab leadership rejected the UN’s offer, and the Israelis accepted, Israel by default has full legal rights to the land, based on common contract law regarding offers and acceptances. The result is that while Palestinians have political, popular, and military support (through the media, European handouts, and oil money), they lack solid legal support for their claims, and Israel knows it. That’s why Israel won’t sign a deal with the Palestinians.
According the most governments, including the American, the international law is created by the UN Security Council. So if the UN Security Council rules that Israel must be dismantled, that (according to the UN and most governments) is the law. Following the same scheme, if it were not for the American veto on the Security Council Israel should have been boycotted long ago. What I don’t understand is why Israel is lending credence to this system, which is killing it.
Jurisdiction is a complex legal matter that requires professional training to understand. That said, doesn’t Israel need to accept foreign jurisdiction over itself first? If there ever was a chance for a binding legal decree against Israel, the Palestinians would have taken it decades ago. The International Courts produced an advisory opinion against Israel’s separation wall in 2004, and Wikipedia says that advisory opinions are non-binding (although that is a matter of controversy). If you believe the Palestinians and the media, advisory opinions are binding law. Now, everyone is confused. With all the jewish attorneys out there, why is there still mass confusion on the subject?
I haven’t studied the question myself, but the claim I’ve read somewhere (not from a particularly reliable source) is that Israel accepts the jurisdiction of the UNSC by virtue of its UN membership. If this is true, then I don’t understand why Israel won’t leave, or in fact why it didn’t leave as early as the U.N. “Zionism is racism” affair in the 70′s. But if the claim is not true, then I don’t understand why Israel won’t declare that it does not recognize any jurisdiction over itself by any foreign body. Either way, there’s so much propaganda surrounding this question that I, for one, do not expect to sort it out to my own satisfaction any time soon. But then, I’m not a lawyer in the pay of the Israeli government.
It’s the Arabs who won’t sign a deal with Israel, not vise versa. Israel has made two maximal peace proposals where the Arabs will get all of the Gaza Strip, 91-100% of Judea and Samaria (including land swaps), a settlement in Jerusalem, and compensations for the 1948 refugees (even though there were more Jewish refugees from Arab states than Arab refugess from Israel). The Arabs rejected it. They demand to resettle all the descendants of the 1948 refugess inside Israel in addition to creating an Arab-Palestinian state. That will turn Israel immdeiately into a binational state, and within a couple of generations, due to the much higher Muslim birthrate, no doubt coupled with Muslim mass immigration through marriage and family reunions, into another Arab-Muslim state. Remember, it was supposed to be a two-states-for-two-peoples solution, not a 23rd-state-for-the-Arabs-next-to-Israel-plus-a-24th-state-for-the-Arabs-instead-of-Israel-and-the-Jews-in-the-sea “solution”. That’s no solution, that’s genocide. This Arab demand is why there will never be peace. They simply do not accept a Jewish state in any borders.
And BTW, there’s no precedence of the descendants of enemy refugess resettling in the enemy country they’ve attacked. When India was divided into India and Paksitan there were many more refugess on both sides by far — the Hindu refugees from the newly created Pakistan resettled in India, and the Muslim refugees from India resettled in Pakistan. The German refugees from the Sudetteneland were resettled in Germany. Any of their descendants demanding the “right of return” into the Czech Republic are considered far-right and nobody gives them the time of day. When it was made clear Arafat demands the “right of return” of the descendants of the 48 Arab refugees into Israel there were some politicians who said it means he doesn’t really mean peace, but such voices have been hushed quickly in favor of the pretence there was some “peace process” going on. But the Arabs never given up that demand. It’s clear they don’t want peace. They want the Jewish state gone, period. If the world really meant peace the only solution for the refugee problem ON BOTH SIDES, is that the descendants of the Arab refugees will be resettled in the Arab side — in the new Arab-Palestinian state and in other Arab states — just like the majority of the Jewish refugees from Arab states were resettled in Israel. Compensations for lost property should be made to the refugees on both sides. But the world isn’t interested in peace. It’s all a sham.
Pnina, Israel can be both a victim and an aggressor. We, the God-fearing people of this earth, shall never forget the Shoah. Please make room for other genuine victims of war, so God can heal everyone, myself included. Israel’s undisputed legitimacy and historic rights are not at issue. My heart, the heart God gave me, goes out to all who suffer. Today, Hitler’s evil still spreads to another nation, Syria. For all of Assad’s many sins, Syrians still believe in One God.
With spite, I say that Muslim Arabs are not responsible for resisting a God-less Israel in their heartland. Yes, Israel won the legal war over the land, because after all, Israel followed the rule of law. But secular Israel openly abandoned God by established secular law instead of God’s law. The prophet Mohammed, who is revered by hundreds of millions, preached submission to God and God only. God has many children; please explain why Arabs must forsake Islam just to submit to one set of God’s children, Hitler’s victims(a.k.a. Israel)? Submitting to secular Israel equals rejecting the Prophet Mohammed’s core teachings. Muslims literally may not submit to Israel. Promises of a better secular world won’t change Islam. Now Jihadis are on the loose everywhere because they have no hope for a better future. For what? Because Israel expected everyone else in the Middle East to abandon God and his teachings? Jews always believed in God, same with Muslims. What did Muslims do to deserve Hitler’s wrath? Nothing! Stop fighting each other! Both are still the children of Abraham!
Truth is, the Arabs were (and still are!) genuinely shocked at the lightening speed of Israeli accomplishments. In hindsight, the whole world saw the entire Arab civilization self-destruct for a variety of reasons. Until the Messiah reveals himself and changes everything, Israel remains morally responsible for inadvertently (negligently, not intentionally) pushing their trauma upon the local Arab population. The conflict must be settled in civil court, with respect for all victims of violence, terrorism, genocide, and war.
“Now Jihadis are on the loose everywhere because they have no hope for a better future. For what? Because Israel expected everyone else in the Middle East to abandon God and his teachings? ”
What are you talking about? Arabs who inhabit 99% of the Middle Eastern land have no hope for a better future because Israel separates Church and State in their tiny country? Huh?
Or are you saying that Israel must cease to exist on the land of ancient Israel because that is an intolerable situation for the followers of Allah, Mohammad, and the Quran, and the existence of Jews in Israel is MAKING THEM have to accept the unacceptable? Hence Jihad?
Learn the geography of the Middle East. Most of the Arab-held land in the Middle East is extreme desert and completely uninhabitable for humans. Go look at any population density map for proof.
Israel does not separate Church and State. Ask any Israeli gay rights activist about Israeli Governmental interference in the laws of marriage for proof.
Of course Israel must continue to exist within the borders of ancient Israel. To make such suggestions is offensive as a matter of principle. Sensationalizing the issue away from constructive debate is also extremely disrespectful to the victims on both sides of the conflict. Please remain respectful.
You study geography! In the land Israel got in the 1947 UN decision the Negev Desert alone made 75% of the land, today it makes 60%. Most of the rest of the land was desert or swamps too — Tel Aviv, Holon, Bat Yam, Rishon LeTzion, Petakh Tikva and many, many other towns in Israel were either desert or swamp land. The Israelis dried the swamps and developed technologies to cultivate arid land. The Arabs didn’t attack Israel for the fertile land, this is absurd. If the size of Israel is about 0.2% of the size of the Arab-ruled land, and only a minor portion of it was originally fertile land, how can this extremely tiny piece of fertile land feed the entire Arab world? The Arabs have far, FAR more fertile lands — in Egypt, Syria, Iraq etc. And you could cultivate arid lands with modern technology just like the Israelis do, and use technology to optimize crops just like the Israelis do. What’s stopping you?
Of course Israel must continue to exist within the borders of ancient Israel.
Should I remind you again that it’s the Arab side who rejects any compromise? You already have a portion of ancient Israel in Jordan and could have had nearly all of Judea and Samaria plus land swaps, and part of Jerusalem if you were willing to make peace. But you don’t accept a Jewish state in any borders — and that is why there’s always war.
And for a Muslim to reproach Israel about gay rights is hilarious. You’re not serious, are you? We have Arab gays seeking asylum here, so really, let’s not get into frivolous accusations.
First of all, keep your rhetoric civilized. The fact that you assume that I am an arab, and gave such a nasty response, is shameful. Your angry, and are completely over-sensationalizing the topic.
You stated that Arabs have so much land, and I said that most of that land is uninhabitable. Israel has all sorts of connections with American Jews, who regularly send it outsider money, ideas and technology. Just look at Chabad’s website. Yes, Arabs have plenty of fertile land, but Arabs don’t have the advanced technology nor the organizational skills to work it. Arab leaders buy weapons, and point a finger at Israel when the arab population complains. Plus, the issue isn’t about Arab land, it’s about Israel and its anti-social attitude.
What’s stopping the arab civilization? Maybe the conflict with Israel? Because of Israel, everyone and anyone feels the need to carry weapons. You must not exaggerate the facts or seek to sensationalize the issues. The situation in the entire Middle East is horrendous. What pride can any arab have? Arab civilization has collapsed, arabs are in complete chaos, and you mock the arabs?!
Excuse me, but there never was a vote which resulted in a refusal to make peace with Israel. There wasn’t any vote to accept or reject any peace deal in. Stop implying that the average arab has any control over anything in the disputed territories.
The gay rights comment was to prove that Israel does not have a separation between church and state. Thank you for making Tel-Aviv an international Gay Mecca. The Middle East would love to have more of Israeli accomplishments and less Israeli attitude. Somehow, I can’t see you holding a rainbow flag. Must have been someone else’s accomplishments that your taking credit for.
I thought you were Muslim because you talk like a Muslim, using Muslim religious expressions and unusually bizarre ideas, such as that we want everyone in the Middle East to foresake god. Westerners have all kinds of bizarre paranoid ideas about us, but I haven’t run into that one yet. And you blame all the troubles of the Arabs and Muslims and all the jihadis operating all over the world on Israel, which is also typical of Muslims, though to some degree also of leftists. And then you tell me I’m saying nasty things! Look at the mirror.
You say the Arab rulers point their finger at Israel when the Arab population complains, but you do the exact same thing. You blame all their troubles on us, just like their rulers. How is that helpful in solving their problems?
I’ve been hearing about Arab pride and honor my entire life, but the fact is that when it comes to Israel the only way to satisfy their sense of honor is for Israel to be gone. And if the Arabs launch war after war to destroy Israel and then feel shame about losing them, how exactly is it our fault? Isn’t it just a little bit sinister to blame us for that? Should we lay down our weapons and let the Arabs slaughter us just so they’d feel a little better about themselves? It’s sad that people base their sense of honor on destroying others — much like the concept of “honor” killing — but I don’t have to sacrifice my life or my country on the altar of Arab honor. If the demand that a whole nation be annihilated to satisfy one’s sense of pride isn’t anti-social I don’t know what is, yet you accuse Israel of being anti-social.
Israel doesn’t have an anti-social sttitude. Israel helps people around the world. Israel treats Arabs in its hospitals. The Arabs, on the other hand, talk about destroying Israel, tried to do that time and again, and even talk quite openly in their media about exterminating the Jews, and broadcast all kinds of anti-Semitic propaganda. That’s about as anti-social as can be.
Israelis don’t get our technologies from American Jews. Israel is an extremely creative nation in its own right. Israel has more startups per capita than any other nation in the world. Israel is the second most educated nation in the world after Canada. The world uses plenty of Israeli made technology. You’re using Israeli technology right now since there’s no modern computer that doesn’t use Israeli technology. How could this have happened? The majority of Israeli Jews are descendants of refugees from the Middle East and Europe. Israel started as a very poor country, surrounded by enemies and having to absorb huge numbers of penniless refugees, and it had no oil or gas or even a good amount of fertile land. At some point Israel had to ration food to be able to feed all its people, otherwise some would have straved. So don’t tell me how lucky we are and how much money we get from American Jews. What makes the difference is attitude. We didn’t sit on our butts all day and whined about what everyone did to us — we do that on some holidays and occasionally on our spare time, but it isn’t our daily food. Anyone — an individual, a group or a nation — that focuses their attention and energy on blaming others for wrongdoings, real or imagined, done to them and for all their problems will invariably end up a loser, except the lucky few who manage to turn it into a profession.
When you’re in trouble others can help you, they can lend you a hand, they can lend you money, they can make you gifts, but in the end only you can turn your furtune around. If the Arabs won’t help themselves nobody can save them.
The Arabs could actually use Israeli technology to help them with their lands like others in the world do, but they don’t want to — they boycott us. Even when Israel left behind all the greenhouses when we unilaterally withdrew from Gaza for the sake of peace, they broke them and used the materials to make rockets to launch at our towns. So how can anyone save them but themselves? How can you save them from themselves? It’s not the Arab-Israeli conflict that prevents them from advancing their civilization. It’s their fanaticism, close-mindedness and obssessions that prevent it. The Arab-Israeli conflict could stop right now if they were ready to compromise, meaning to accept the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. If they can’t accept Israel’s existence then there’s nothing we can do about it. We have no intention of committing suicide.
If their rulers scapegoat Israel to divert the people’s rage, then the sooner the people open their eyes to it the sooner they could start making progress. The disappearance of Israel will not solve any of their problems. They’ll just choose another scapegoat to blame for them. In fact they already blame America and the West, and the Muslims even blame the poor Middle Eastern Christian minorities.
And I was not mocking the Arabs, though I should. When people try to kill you all the time you should mock them to keep your sanity. But what I was doing is criticize them. And that’s what others should do too. The root cause of their problems is not Israel. The root causes are to be found in their own culture and attitudes. Denying and sugarcoating it isn’t helping them. The West has been doing it for decades and it ain’t working. One needs to see the reasons for one’s failures to be able to overcome these failures, to make adjustments and get on the road to success. By denying there is a problem and blaming it all on others you just prolong the Arab agony.
And I really don’t understand your point about gays. First you vehemently complain that Israel is a secular state that doesn’t live under the law of god and supposedly wants everyone else to become secular too. Then you complain that Israel doesn’t separate state and synagogue and doesn’t have gay marriage. Then you complain that Israel turned Tel Aviv into an “international Gay Mecca”. What do you want? What’s your beef? You hate Israel — that much I got, but you should try and be a bit more consistent re the rationalizations you produce for that hatred.
What on earth are you talking about?! The Muslims are not expected to submit to Israel, just to let it be. It’s the Muslims who demand us to submit and live under Islamic rule. The Muslims are not expected to forsake Islam either, just to let others worship or not as they wish. Of course, letting others do that is against Islam, so you have a problem with it.
Submitting to secular Israel equals rejecting the Prophet Mohammed’s core teachings.
You mean that accepting Israel’s existence on a portion of the Jewish ancestral homeland, which in size is about 0.2% of the size of the land the Arabs rule (nevermind the size of the land all Muslims rule), equals rejecting your Prophet Mohammed’s core teachings. Accepting a non-Muslim state on any territory once conquered by force by Muslims is forbidden by sharia and that is why it equals rejecting your Prophet Mohammed’s core teachings, right? Your problem is not with borders, but with the very existence of Israel, right? That’s why there will never be peace.
Israel has a right to exist where it does not because of the holocaust, but because it was our ancestral homeland for millennia before the Arabs conquered it, before Islam was even founded and before your Prophet Mohammed was even born. Just because the Muslims once conquered it as part of your huge imperialist project doesn’t mean you have a right to it. Just like you, at least part of you, accept the existence of non-Muslim Spain you should accept the existence of non-Muslim Israel.
Now Jihadis are on the loose everywhere because they have no hope for a better future. For what? Because Israel expected everyone else in the Middle East to abandon God and his teachings?
What kind of nonsense is that?! Israel never expected anyone in the Middle East to abandon god, unless merely accepting the very existence of the little Stats of Isral rather than destroying it means to the Muslims abandoning god. But we don’t have to lose our sovereignty and I don’t have to die just because our mere existence doesn’t sit well with mainstream Muslim theology. This fanatical intolerance is what creates the problems and brings endless war everywhere Muslims have borders with non-Muslims.
If the Muslims have no hope for a better future for themselves and produce an endless stream of jihadis it’s because something is wrong with Muslim society, ideology and politics. It has nothing to do with Israel. Israel never demanded you do anything other than stop trying to destroy us, and never intervened in the Arab or Muslim internal matters. If you get your “information” from the paranoid Muslim media and clerics, themselves “informed” by anti-Semitic forgeries like “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, I suggest you wake up. If it wasn’t for your fanaticism you wouldn’t even notice Israel — it’s that small. You have so much land, so many people, natural resources and so many blessings you could be one of the most prosperous nations on earth, but you squander all that wealth and potential on greedy tyrants and fanatic ideologies. Is that what god gave you all those gifts for? Sestroying Israel will not solve your problems because Israel is not the cause of your problems.
If Israel is successful and the Arabs are largely failing maybe the Arabs should ask themselves what is Israel doing right and what are they doing wrong. They don’t have to abandon god. Just allowing more freedom and tolerance, adopting more positive thinking, emphasizing education, encouraging their children to get educated rather than become jihadis, and investing the oil money in productive endeavors to help their own people rather than investing it in lavish life style for tyrants, police states, promoting terrorism and radical Islam abroad, and investing in Western academia, businesses, politics and PR companies, could make a tremendous difference in the lives of the Arab people. I don’t know if this kind of redirection is un-Islamic. I hope it isn’t. Anyway there’s nothing much anyone can do about it but the Muslims themselves. It’s the choice of the Muslims if they want to self-destruct and try to destroy others while at it, or use all their gifts to make a good life for themselves and while at it make a better life for all humanity.
Imagine all this energy, and all those human and material resources, going into inventing productive technologies, finding cures for diseases, making the desert bloom, growing food and other such noble endeavors instead of investing so much of it in hate, paranoia and destruction. Look what Israel with 8 million people contributes to the world in these fields because it chose this path and imagine how much blessing could 1.5 billion Muslims bring to the world had they chosen this path too. Is this path un-Islamic? But this is up to the Muslims. Nobody outside Islam can decide their path for them.
You can’t pick and choose certain phrases and take them out of context. But, I will try to explain a few general themes.
1) All the Arab wars lost to Israel had major implications for Arab society. Arabs fear Israel and Israel’s powerful military, and that fear causes constant social strife. All the moderates are dead. All the intelligent men are in Europe or America. There are very few jobs for the rest of the men.
2) Arabs think Jews are mentally scarred from the Holocaust, like their brains are scrambled and they need doctors and medicine to fix them. Why else would Israel kill women and children? Go look on youtube at all the children crying. Arabs threaten because they want respect, not because they want to kill. They want to save their communities from harm. Now, after so many decades, Arabs got more and more desperate. The radicals took over. Their justification is that Israelis take away land and make the women and children cry, so no one can challenge the radicals either. Most arabs are poor, very poor. Most don’t have enough to eat, or enough to save for their children’s education. Many arab children die. Arab leaders do not represent the arab people, they represent arab oil money. But secular Israel refuses to deal with anyone who dares criticize them, and makes arabs wait in hell for years with barely enough food and no jobs. Israelis learned that from Hitler, not from arabs. Israelis shame themselves by thinking the arabs was democracy and education. Arabs want food, water, clothes, and shelter!
Think about a game of chess. After 65 years of playing, switch sides with the arabs, and see the game from their perspective. I dare you.
“All the Arab wars lost to Israel had major implications for Arab society. Arabs fear Israel and Israel’s powerful military, and that fear causes constant social strife.” Really? Just as upstate New York is in decline because the Bills were never permitted to win the Super Bowl, and the people of the region will suffer helplessly until they are permitted to murder at least the starting offensive squad of the Dallas Cowboys. All kidding aside, when actual human lives are at stake, no one is owed a victory – especially by, and over, those whom they have broadcast intentions to slaughter in revenge.
But at least MM’s mask FINALLY comes off. One must admire his/her tenacity in keeping it on for so long, but once he/she/it writes “Israelis learned that from Hitler, not from arabs,” it’s kind of hard to conceal the true sentiments anymore.
Pack it in, Pnina. You’re dealing with someone who lives in a fantasy world where the entire Middle East is a giant plantation where about 5 million rich, cruel, arrogant Jews crack their whips over the backs of their 300 million helpless Arab slaves, and take food from the mouths of innocent children because they enjoy it. What else can you expect from people who had the power to kill god? BTW, MM, I don’t know if this last (the god-killing business) is what you truly believe (one hopes not, but the signs do trend in that direction). But here’s a little friendly advice: You may consider yourself a theologian at heart, but until you can actually read and understand the Bible in Hebrew and the Koran in Arabic, PLEASE stop pontificating to Jews and Muslims alike about what their religions “really” teach.
There’s a famous story that Chassidim like to tell. Look it up on the internet. It’s about Moshiach. He comes to one shtettle and announces, “I’m Moshiach! I came to save you and lead you to the promised land! All you have to do is open your eyes and accept some good advice on how to get there!” And the shtettle folk said, “Since you know all the answers, answer this, Rashi or Rabainu Tam?” And Moshiach said, “Huh? Who cares? I’m here to save you from galus!” And the shtettle folk replied, “If you don’t daven with our nissuch, then you are obviously not Moshiach, because our own Rebbele, the son of our previous Rebbele, said that our Moshiach would daven in our nissuch.”
Moshiach goes to the next shtettle, and the same thing happens. And again and again, and again. Finally, Moshiach meets Yoshke, and after a long farbrengen with vodka and herring, and gossiping about the shtettle folk, Moshiach decides join Yoshke, and like Yoshke, preach to only those would actually want to listen. After all, Yoshke did more far more than Moshiach could, by NOT preaching to the masses. That’s because the masses listened to the old Rebbele, and therefore felt entitled to everything while constantly fantasizing that Moshiach will daven with their nissuch and not anyone else’s.
Werewife, I bet I can call you nastier names then what you called me, but I wouldn’t do that, because my Mom taught me better manners. Please educate yourself on the affects of the Holocaust on Jewish society on a communal level. Pay special attention to the concept of a “mental state” and its affect on Holocaust survivors’ children. Then read up on how traumatized “mental states” can affect daily behavior (similar to rape victims). The problem with “rape victims” is that afterwards, they close themselves off to new and healthy relationships, because the mental state is still compromised.
Holocaust survivors are known to pass major psychological issue to their children. Today, there’s a huge market for treating the children and grandchildren of holocaust survivors, so the affects of the Shoah don’t pass along to the next generation. It’s a major issue, and is well documented.
I suggest you seek professional assistance before posting in public forums again, because my message is that all people who experience trauma, Jews and Arabs, have compromised mental states. All with compromised mental states must seek a trained professional for at least their children’s sake. In the meantime, shame on you for devaluing freedom of expression.
MM, just because you can drop a couple of Yiddish expressions doesn’t make you an expert on Jews and Judaism. It would help if you got them correct: e.g., no Chasid would refer to his Rebbe as his “Rebbele,” which is a diminutive like one would use to address a child. I have no idea what “nissuch” means, but I think you were shooting for “nusach,” meaning liturgical arrangement. (Moving on to English, it’d help to know the difference between “affect,” meaning emotion, and “effect,” meaning result.) No Chassidic story would depict a holy figure “gossiping about the [shtetl] folk” or anyone else, as Chassidim consider gossip to be a very serious sin. Given all that, I did try to look up your “famous” story online and couldn’t find it. The only Chassidic story I ever heard that featured Jesus (“Yoshke” is a deliberately insulting diminutive) told of a failed attempt by a Ba’al Shem to rescue him from Hell.
But what to make of your sage counsel that I should educate myself on aspects of the Holocaust? [Insert eye roll here.] Please. It wasn’t me who brought it up. Rather than invoke Godwin, I’ll entertain your suggestion thus: For centuries Christians and Muslims have laid claim to the Jews’ clock and “helpfully” told them what time it is. Now they presume to lecture the Jews about the “true meaning” of the traumas of Jewish history and the lessons the Jews “must” learn from them. The condescension, it is strong with this one.
And as for your polite forbearance to call me “nastier names,” well, I would rather you directed your bile at me personally than the vicious sex-and-violence fantasies you heaped on the ultra-Orthodox of Israel in your comments below in response to Husky. It’s not that I devalue freedom of expression; it’s just that the only necessity for the triumph of evil (in which category all good people include Jew-hatred, oleaginous lies, and excuses for violence and dysfunction) is for good people to do nothing. The least one can do is respond.
As for “compromised mental states,” you can only speak for yourself.
“For centuries Christians and Muslims have laid claim to the Jews’ clock and “helpfully” told them what time it is. Now they presume to lecture the Jews about the “true meaning” of the traumas of Jewish history and the lessons the Jews “must” learn from them. The condescension, it is strong with this one.”
We now have B.H.Obama continuing this fine tradition by admonishing Israel that she doesn’t know what’s best for her. The world sure has a lot to say to the Jewish People, eh? A curious, never-ending global obsession with a nation that is smaller than the margin of error in Chinese population stats.
I doubt very much that you have ever read the Koran. I would say that 1/3 of it describes how Allah tortures the deceased. The Allah of the Koran is a sadistic monster not at all a God, just as Mohammed was a pirate not a prophet . God listened to his prophets and performed miracles for them. Mohammed was not sure the being who talked to him was an angel, he suspected it of being a demon. Moreover Mohammed could not perform any miracles and knew he never would be able to do so. If you read the Koran and Hadith there is NO resemblance between them and the Torah and the Midrash . Do not be deceived by the tolerant and gentle verses at written at the start of Islam, all have been abrogated, superseded by later verses, mandating hatred, war and slavery. Judaism and Islam are not compatible at all, they are opposites . Judaism venerate truth, Islam does not, the prophet of Islam lied and cheated many times, and so may his followers. And that is why no peace treaty with any Arab is worth much. Just ask the Bani Quraytha jews.
Jews lived intimately with Arabs and Muslims for centuries. They never talked about how barbaric Arabs were until about 1950. They didn’t start talking about how evil Islam is until about ten years ago. Interesting.
Obama is not the first US President to make a fool of himself by posing as the brand new prophet who knows just how to untangle the knot, if only those stubborn Israeli would let him conduct the Jerusalem Symphony and magically erase millenia of contention by the power of his divine music. But this predicable challenge would not likely pop up again with some regularity if there had not been in the first place a gutsy Harry Truman to stick his neck out and allow the creation of Israel when it mattered. What can one do with the US president who received his Nobel Peace prize preemptively? Surely Mr. Netanyahu can figure out how to tackle that one! In the meantime, please join me in visualizing Joseph Biden himself manning the Timpani, in faithful support of his messianic boss?
” In the meantime, please join me in visualizing Joseph Biden himself manning the Timpani, in faithful support of his messianic boss?
LOL, thanks for that mental image. I really needed the laugh just now.
@Barry,
This is a great piece of journalism
My only caveat is
“That is, to keep the largest existing settlements near the border”
There is no “border” ,just a cease fire line as agreed at Rhodes agreements in 1949.
The gigatic fire wave engulfing all the failed arab state helped me to understand that firstly,the arab soul must make peace with himself,with his wife ,his kids before trying to bridge the gap with other people,including Jews .
Listening to excerpt from Obama’s prayer breakfeast and his mention of Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u825_JLTGB4
This is very very important he does not have the same fate as Yitzhak Rabin from wackos inside this fox chicken and the grain
M M seems to have set himself/herself up as an authority arguing for equivalency on this matter. “They want their rightful share in Abraham’s legacy.” What legacy is that M M? All that Muslims (or anyone else) have to do, is STOP cursing the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in order to be blessed. Gen.12: 1-3 “I will bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you.” And it is good to remember that God made a very different covenant with Ishmael; but a covenant just the same. The name Yeshua is being shouted by hundreds of thousands of “Arabs” throughout the ME; because the feet of Yeshua are walking on its soil … see God does love Arabs as well. Imagine that.
M M seems to have set himself/herself up as an authority arguing for equivalency on this matter; a gentler and kinder version of Islam using not only faulty logic but down right lies e.g. Israel’s God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; whereas Islam’s God is a Babylonian misfit called Allah with a revenge freak as a prophet. “They want their rightful share in Abraham’s legacy.” What legacy is that M M? All that Muslims (or anyone else) have to do, is STOP cursing Israel in order to be blessed. Gen.12: 1-3 “I will bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you.” And it is good to remember that God made a very different covenant with Ishmael; but a covenant just the same. The name Yeshua is being shouted by hundreds of thousands of “Arabs” throughout the ME; because the feet of Yeshua are walking on its soil today and no amount of kinder and gentler forms of Islam will change that because young people have seen first hand what Allah does … see; God does love Arabs as well. Imagine that. I’m praying that Obama blesses Israel; that he will embrace Israel and show a captivating love for Israel. Why? Because of the difference it will make to America’s future; remembering God’s words to Abraham, “I will bless those that bless you, and curse those that curse you”. The soil of Israel blossomed because God’s people set foot there; … look across any border with Israel and all you see is … sand. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob meant what he said in Gen.12: 1-3.
Yes, nowadays Islam is radical as a result of decades of chaos, but please compare of Islamic radicals as ultra-orthodox Jews in Mea Shearim. Both are nice enough, but if someone causes offense to their religious beliefs, they hit the roof and declare holy war! Most of their holy war is chanting prayers until a big enough mob forms, and then they rampage as a mob with all their toys (rocks, guns, cars, cigarettes, alcohol, the internet, cellphones, etc). And of course, they like to boast about their masculinity and their God.
Don’t compare Jihadis with Hitler, compare them with the religious fanatics who are very upset, because they’re wives are upset, and thus sleep with them. Jihadis will calm down, but they won’t be the first to declare peace. Like the Jewish ultra-orthodox, Jihadis can only stop once their communities are safe and secure, because then their wives will sleep with them. What works for the ultra-orthodox Jews will work for the Jihadis. Both have tons and tons of kids!
The key here is to integrate all the poor women stuck at home raising the kids. Instead of worrying about the Jihadis, get some jobs for their wives, so their wives can earn an income, and the Jihadis have to stay at home playing Dad. What man can handle nine children? As a bonus, that will also stop all these young men from wanting so many babies, thus easing the Government’s burden for paying handouts.
Wrong. Jihadis get to stop when the entire world is islamic and under sharia law. For that is what the Koran instructs. Jihadis are not upset, they are merely obeying their religion. There is no orthodox jewish sect which is commanded to make war until the entire world is jewish . Consequently there is no equivalence between upset extremists. There however is a religion of intolerance, war and slavery .That religion is NOT judaism.
Israel should unilaterally recognize Jordan—which is composed of the vast majority of Mandate Palestine—as what it is: the only legitimate “Palestinian Arab state.”
It should announce that it recognizes the “right of return” for all “Palestinians” to that state.
To facilitate that “right of return,” Israel will pay to each “Palestinian” who chooses to exercise it the sum of $50,000, upon signature of a perpetual quit-claim to any claim to citizenship or nationhood in the Land of Israel, from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River. This relocation allowance will also be paid to minor children, provided their parents or guardians execute the relevant documents on their behalf.
From the date of the announcement, this sum will diminish by $10,000 per month every month it is not exercised, until it reaches zero.
One month after the relocation allowance reaches zero, the Arab areas of the West Bank should be thoroughly cropdusted with pig fat.
I hope that Netanyahu leaves that rude bastard waiting alone in another room while he has a nice dinner with his wife…………..and also make him come in the back door………….just like Barry did to him……!!!
M M, you have not been exactly honest in your assessment of Genesis 16, or your woefully ill informed of the story of SaraH and Hagar.
If you’re not Muslim and you believe in this “shared heritage”, which by the way Sarah and Hagar were not equals in Abraham’s eyes and that should be more than obvious from a quick perusal, then as Christian and a student of the Bible and using it as the legitimate source of disputed territory, I say let us use the Bible to determine the allocation of land and leave it at that.
If we can all agree, then there is going to be many an unhappy Arab I am afraid. Because Israel will greatly expand her holding and there will be no dispute about Jerusalem.
Somehow I don’t think the premise of your first argument is going to lead to peace, friend. Universal Armageddon would be much more likely.
Make that you’re…(sigh)
I have lived through all of this. First, Little Rock. Then Rhodesia, South Africa and then Hong Kong. We are fighting a losing battle. Israel is simply the next card to fall. If the Jews had held with us on supporting constitutional rights in the US, then perhaps we would not have had to meet at this pass, but they didn’t. I am pessimistic.
naughty, naughty, naughty…comparing Israel to Rhodesia. The difference is that the Jews actually could retain their ethnostate if they were more reasonable and less paranoid.
You can’t rule over other peoples.
“You can’t rule over Other Peoples.”
You seem perfectly fine with allowing Muslim Jihadis to do so.
Perhaps Obama will cancel the trip after Hagel is confirmed.
“Obama might come away with just enough to claim some success, a claim that will be echoed in the mass media. But it would be meaningless.” — This is a good thing. Right?
MM’s rants are quite odd.did he really advocate Arab residency rights in Israel without citizenship ? A closet kahanist perhaps. As Dr Rubin states as long as Obama keeps to fuzzy platitudes, the trip will be a success. Furthermore,it is in everyone’s (Abbas,Netanyahu,lapped,moors,Abdullah) interest to avoid open conflict. Let him take his photo-ops,mouth pretty if insincere words and most importantly LEAVE.
M M
“Also, isn’t it funny how Jews live all over the world, and have citizenship in so many countries, yet Israel is only for Jews (and the 25% arabs who stayed instead of fleeing in 1948)?”
Takiyah (BS)….Jews cannot live in at least 22 different countries……Those who once did were expelled with the clothes on their back…if they were lucky….no right of return.
As someone from the US, let me say that we don’t all support or even like Obama. I would take Mr. Benjamin Netanyahu any day over Obama. My only fear is that he will somehow betray Israel and Netanyahu and Israel will think that the real Americans are behind it. Please don’t trust Obama, but please trust Americans, we support you. Don’t judge us by the fact that we most often elect idiots and criminals to public office. I look forward to the day that Judah and Ephraim are joined together in Israel! Shalom,