Egypt: Things to Think About as We Await the Presidential Election Outcome
While Egyptian Brotherhood leaders claim to be moderate when they talk to Western audiences, that has nothing to do with what they say to each other or to Egyptians. In May at El-Mahalla El-Kubra, at a rally attended by Brotherhood presidential candidate Muhammad al-Mursi, the main speaker, Sifwat Hijazi, said that when the Brotherhood took power:
“Our capital won’t be Mecca or Medina, but Jerusalem, millions of shahids [martyrs] will march on the city. The whole world should know — and we say it clearly — our goal is Jerusalem, we shall pray in Jerusalem, and, if not, we shall die as martyrs on its ruins.” Another speaker added, “Tomorrow Mursi will liberate Gaza.” A singer sang: “The Jews will not be able to sleep, come, lovers of martyrs, you’re all Hamas. Take on arms, and prepare for prayer.”
Just words? Sure, like the words of Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser, Iranian spiritual guide Khomeini, Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat and many more. The Western mass media, academic experts, and government officials may assure you that the Muslim Brotherhood is really a moderate group and that worrying about what it will do in power is silly. Pay no attention. The Brotherhood daily makes clear what it believes and intends to do.
So does it make sense for a U.S. government to take up the doctrine of “neo-conservative” naivete and demand a Brotherhood victory over the army in Egypt? A proper U.S. government would — and I apologize for the “amoral” requirements of realpolitik — secretly be backing the military to keep the Brotherhood out of power. We now know that President Harry Truman’s administration did certain things to ensure Communist parties didn’t win power in France and Italy which would not meet contemporary “ethical” standards of electoral results over American national security interests. Thank goodness for that!
I like that:
“a proper U.S. government would…”.
We don’t have a “proper” U.S. government, we have an administration of internationalist subversives bent on helping the islamic supremacists worldwide.
And we know already what the subversives will do because it has already happened in Turkey: there, the Army was the only force that could stop the islamists and this administration did not support the generals.
What is on the table so that Washington, and the foreign departments of other governments, pay more than lip service to what is communicated by “Voices of the Martyrs”.
As long as an idea sounds wonderful, but leaves a lot to be desired when it is road tested, it is time to go back to the drawing board.
The short term and long term differ greatly here. In the short term, we need to back the Generals. In the long term we need to see Democracy started.
If it was my candy bar, I would split it this way;
Support the Generals ONLY if they can produce a workable plan to transition to Democracy.
The problem with elections now is that the MB has a serious advantage. They are organized and nobody except the Army is also organized.
So have the Army run things for a year or two while political parties are organized. do local elections in 6 months, regional elections in a year, then national elections in 2 years. Let all the parties get an election or two under their belts before the main event. Pro sports all have preseasons to work out the kinks, why not political parties?
If the Generals back out, SEAL team 6 learns a new language.
@stoicheion: Democracy as you expect the Islamic world to adopt is an unknown there and is not going to happen, regardless of any voting procedure. Know these cultures – study their history and politics and you may after a while learn to realize that the Islamic mind comes from an entirely different place from the culture of the West.
You champion Democracy with a capital D. What we refuse to get is that to the Islamist public “democracy” doesn’t mean anything but Sharia law (or the only other option: dictatorship. These two systems are the only things that can work there. Look at the PA’s only election results: Hamas, not some Jeffersonian style democracy.
It took centuries for the Western mind to develop into its worldview as it is today, and we in the West refuse to learn that this worldview cannot and will not spontaneously arise in an Islamic country.
Let’s stop being so provincial and cease to expect results by trying to superimpose the kind of human capital of the West (our attitudes, behaviors, our morality: “where we’re coming from”) which resulted in our prosperity and open and stable legal system which allowed our concept of freedom to flourish. That kind of human capital simply does not exist in the Islamic world. How many more countries will fall like dominoes under radical Islamic regimes before we begin to realize this?
Don’t forget: mob rule is also democratic.
What I can agree with in this article:
1. Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood (amongst most all middle eastern states) would like nothing better than to see Israel wiped off the map.
2. Without our support, the military MAY have a more difficult time keeping out the Brotherhood and other anti-Israeli/Western elements.
Here’s what I don’t agree with:
Backing a corrupt, dictatorial military that had everything to do with keeping Egyptians stupid and uninformed and to cast the west as the ultimate enemy. Remember, the military has controlled the media since the nation’s establishment. How’s that worked out for us?
Certainly no better than the Egyptian fundamentalist parties, in Israel, Hamas was freely elected and consequently put in charge. What’s the difference? Well, for one thing by having 100% control of Gaza they have to answer to the people–and things haven’t been good. And from what I’ve read, their chips have fallen steeply and, with them, their credibility.
Absolute power means having to take responsibility for outcome, and results that go against the narrative have a way of moderating people. By maintaining the status quo in Egypt, the same old enemies will continue to be blamed for everything that goes wrong until the people get what they want. And guess what? If we support the military as a dictatorship, WE will be responsible for the outcome. But let them decide for themselves and history has proven people turn on today’s savior on a morning’s whimsey when things start deteriorating.
And what happens if the fundamentalist don’t give up power? As we all know absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Egyptians may be naive but, when it comes to corruption, they’re seasoned vets and will sniff it out in a heartbeat. And when the people come to terms with that, the blush will be off the petal and revolution will once again be in the air.
The Arab states are currently enthralled with the idea that muslim fundamentalism will fix everything. There is no reasoned argument that will change their minds, only time and experience as democrats will do that.
Do you really want to or think we could even keep these people in suspended societal animation for ever–their anger deepening, their radicalism growing, but this time with us truely the source of their discontent?
And though the road will be rocky (and worse), democracy IS the only path to ultimate peace. This is what our country has stood for from day one and that which I have tried to convince others of who have accused the United States of being a devious, cunning, backdoor-dealting, closet imperialist nation.
This kind of quick-fix, temporary bandage mentality will land us in deep trouble fast, undermining both our moral core and legitimacy as a global leader.
And one more thing: as a fellow American, shame on you for continuing to push this misguided, unethical and downright un-American scheme. We were born into this world as a democracy, have lived as a nation nurturing democracy around the world, and I’ll be damned if we don’t dance with the lady we brought until the end.
Excellent reply, thank you. I am always surprised how quickly some throw principles over the side when it is expedient. This whole “democracy is great…except when we don’t like the results” mentality betrays the American ideal.
In other words, do we really want the Egyptians to be held hostage for decades to a fanatical anti-Semitic, anti-Western and anti-American regime?
That would be catastrophic for the Egyptians, for peace in the Middle East and for American interests. We should no more condone a Muslim Brotherhood government in Egypt today than we would have condoned a Communist government in Western Europe in the late 1940s.
Democracy is about more than respect for a mechanical electoral outcome. A people that votes for a dictatorship, their votes should not be respected. But that is apparently hard for American elites to grasp.
If they can’t say anything against radical Islamists, the very least they can do is remain mercifully silent.
I can appreciate your point of view and the idealism that I think drives it. But I think that at some point we simply have to accept that people sometimes make bad choices and let them make those bad choices anyway.
Just as we are very protective to young children who have little life experience to guide them, we are a lot more tolerant of their choices once they get into their teens because we KNOW that they will soon be in a position to make their own choices and we won’t be able to stop them. So we guide them as best we can but then back off and let them do what they really want to do. With a bit of luck, the bad decisions aren’t catastrophic and they learn from their mistakes and finally start making good decisions.
Maybe it’s time we think of the Egyptians and those in the other Third World countries that way. If we respect them and their right to make their own decisions, while doing what we can to encourage good decisions, maybe things will turn out for the best. That should certainly reduce the anti-Americanism in the world.
Of course in the case of Egypt, I see nothing wrong with emphasizing that we will be extremely displeased if Israel or other pro-American governments in the regime are harmed by whatever government the Egyptians elect. You may grudgingly concede that your teenager can have the car on Saturday night but there’s nothing wrong with reminding him about the perils of drunk driving or racing with his friends. By the same token, we should be able to at least influence the behavior of governments, even if we can’t control every move they make.
Mind you, I’m not convinced that our president administration will do anything but enthusiastically back the Muslim Brotherhood and ENCOURAGE any excesses they have in mind. But that will, I hope, all change after the November election.
I see that the Zionist propagandist is at it once again with his lies. The Zionist occupiers and treacherous Jews have put the Palestinians in concentration camps. They have turned them into prisoners in their homeland. It is time for a one-state solution. One-man, one-vote in Palestine. The fake illegitimate Zionist regime will soon cease to exist. The demise of the phony Zionist entity is rapidly approaching.
Today we will be victorious in Egypt, Insha’Allah. You Westerners are hypocrites. You say you want “democracy” in the Middle East. Well than you must support the results of the election in Egypt, irregardless of whether you like the results or not. If the majority of Egyptians support us — and they do — then how can you impose on us the secularists, liberals and leftists? That is not democracy. That is not the will of the people. Today the Americans and the Zionists will tremble in fear when they see the results of the election.
We don’t want your filthy decadent Western culture coming into our societies, and poisoning the minds of our children. We don’t want to have anything to do with your sick poisonous culture — the sexual immorality, pornography, prostitution, divorces, broken families, filthy movies, homosexual marriage, drugs, alcohol, gambling, consumerism, materialism, hedonism etc. We want nothing to do with your decadent culture.
What sort of liberties are offered by the western secular system? The liberty of disintegrating the family? The liberty of being homosexual? The western capitalist system & democracy has been discredited. It has been shown to be a complete and utter failure. Your decadent infidel nations are all bankrupt and dying. It is time for Islam to rule. Communism, socialism, capitalism, democracy… have all failed. We have the answer. We have a better way of life. We have the right solution for all crises and this is the observance of the divine law, namely the Sharia. The Sharia is the perfect system for humanity. Allahu Akbar!
Is there any way we can get you back in the conversation? Its not often we get an opportunity to talk with a true believer around here.
I just want to write thanks for writting Allah instead of G-d. I get so tired of folks who do not understand the god of the Kaabba is not the G-d of Noah, Abraham, Moses, and King David.
Don’t you think the US government has helped the Muslim Brotherhood already in North Africa, Libya, Egypt, and now Syria? Come on, we placed a round in Col. Quack’s head for you guys.
If you see Al Qieda’s Z man, can you tell him thanks for coughing up Osama for not going along with the agreement for region 4 within GATT.
Keep following Muhammad, and murder some more Coptic Christians, or Jewish baby girls in their sleep. You know, Muhammad would be proud of you guys.
Cheers,
“We don’t want your filthy decadent Western culture coming into our societies, and poisoning the minds of our children. We don’t want to have anything to do with your sick poisonous culture — the sexual immorality, pornography, prostitution, divorces, broken families, filthy movies, homosexual marriage, drugs, alcohol, gambling, consumerism, materialism, hedonism etc. We want nothing to do with your decadent culture.”
Yes yor Muslim Brotherhood friends (or was it your Salafist friends?) proved that recently when you proposed legislation in the Egyptian parliament to allow a man or woman to have sex with a deceased spouse for up to six hours after they have died. I’m sure there’s nothing sick or poisonous about that (in your mind anyway).
Snarky, you beat me to it in pasting that excerpt.
I was going to use it to ask our Islamic correspondent here about all of the thousands of Islamic hypocrites resident in our America participating is these very same enumerated terrible, hedonistic activities for their material well being. They seem to like and thrive well enough under our wicked Capitalism, do they not?
I’ll ask this ‘Islamist in Londonistan’ who, then is (are) the hypocrites?
Those strictures against all of your rote-enumerated vices only have selective applications? They don’t apply to you personally living freely in Londonistan? Do you have a special exemption?
Again, just who are the hypocrites among these Muslim/Islamists? Not all of them?….Only just a few?….None of them? …Only the “moderate Muslims”? What, then, specifically qualifies these eager residents here, many claiming American citizenship, for exemptions enabling them to live those delicious, comfortable, hedonistic lives here inside our America?
The taqiyya here of this “Islamist In Londonistan” has a rank, penetrating (pun intended) odor.
I could sell your entire culture on Ebay as an antique. Personally, for 5 grand, it’d be a toss up between the middle east and a near mint insert movie poster of Forbidden Planet. The good thing about the poster is that it wouldn’t drone like a cicada.
No. Leave them to duke it out. We can fight whoever remains standing. Or better, we should develop our oil and gas and other energy sources, let the Arabs and other Middle Easterners pound sand until they are ready to leave each other alone. They are not our responsibilities. Our young men and women are not to die for them. We are not to indebt ourselves further to support a military action against them and make ourselves a scapegoat to concentrate their millenium old hatreds against each other.
If nothing else, the Great Satan has shrunk a bit in last few years, and could only afford to be the Little Satan who has not enough weight to throw around. That damn place is only strategic for their oil, and their Suez canal. We don’t need their skunking oil, nor their stupid canal. We can use the Chinese-owned canal in our backyard, and the flying birds to go places.
Truman was wrong not to let the communists take over France and Italy. Germany which got over the commies, is doing fine now. France, and Italy are currently going thru their socialist utopia phase and wasted billions of our money propping them up all these years. Their socialist fever must be high enough to kill off their leftist parasites which have already infected us. We need to save ourselves, our young who can’t find jobs, and our old who can’t retire.
Well in the second paragraph when you’re not being a gag writer, I’d have to agree with you. The rest had to be stolen from a Hollywood parody sketch.
(That was in reply to the Islamist in Londonistan.)
This Islamist’s views inform us exactly Islamism must be firmly repressed.
A people that has no freedom of conscience, that has no history of rule of law, respect for the equality of women, minority rights, private property and the concept of limited government does not understand the essence of democracy. The rule of the Sharia is the very antithesis of democracy and freedom.
None of the things I mentioned exist in Islamic culture. The West to be sure has its share of vices and shortcomings but it also has great strengths and virtues. Among them are the love of God, trust in our fellow man, self criticism, honoring our obligations to others and our belief in peace and friendship with all peoples.
The Islamists glorify cutting people’s heads off for holding the “wrong” beliefs, freely changing their religion or demanding equal rights for all. They are in love with jihad and death, war and destruction. Free men and women draw the lines in the sand and will not allow them to vanquish us in the name of an other worldly perfection and a totalitarian creed.
We have every reason not to want that kind of system imposed in Egypt even if the vast majority of its people as the above poster says would vote for it. The Egyptians must not be allowed to become slaves to themselves.
“We have every reason not to want that kind of system imposed in Egypt even if the vast majority of its people as the above poster says would vote for it. ”
Actually, I’m more concerned about the Muslim zealots imposing Sharia HERE in the United States than I am about imposing it in Egypt….
I join you.
We’re already being infiltrated and betrayed by Muslims from Northern Virginia, Dearbornistan and wherever else their mosques/madrassas pop up…..right under our politically correct noses.
Or all of this could have been avoided in the first place if we simply threw our support to Mubarak and didn’t let him fall. Ironically, if the military takes over, you will have roughly the same government as if Mubarak DID stay in power. Who knows, the military government may even pardon Mubarak and turn him loose. The pro-western military is the best thing that ever happened to Egypt. At least under Mubarak and the military Egypt was financially stable (at least when compared to now) and there was a certain degree of political stability in the country as well. Do you really, honestly, think Egypt will remain pro-western and stable if the Muslim Brotherhood and the Salafists took over? You would just have another Iran only without the oil, which would make it just another Islamic state that’s an economic basket case. I would support the military in a heartbeat. And the military would maintain the Camp David accords, which would guarantee at least some measure of peace in that area. This is no small point. The military would be the best option for that country right now. And for a nation that has no real history of democracy, let alone forming a democratic republic, a pro-western military is the best outcome you could hope for in Egypt.
Your culture is filthy and vile. Your society is decadent. We will never let you spread the pollution & poison our children’s minds. We will resist. We will never give in. We will fight to the death in order to keep your decadent culture out of our societies.
You decadent infidels are disgusting. Keep your vile culture to yourselves. Stop trying to export it to our countries. We will fight you to the end … and we will prevail … even if it takes 100 years. Allahu Akbar!
I think that clarifies a thing or two. I wasn’t quite sure from your last post where you were going. (That is, assuming you’re not a plant.)
By the way, you seem to have grown up in England, judging by your English language skills and your online name. Your parents may have immigrated there before you were born or soon after. Although I’m not quite sure why you are still in “Londonistan.” Why stay in the heart of darkness?
It’s a joke. Satire.
I think. I hope?
If not, I hope he ponders this:
Pornography + access to MRI’s and miraculous surgical techniques
versus:
No pornography (no clitorises, in fact), no MRI’s, no miraculous surgical techniques for the common man, BUT – all the Koran study and fava bean paste you desire.
You’re being more instructive in muslim/islamist ways here than you can know. Don’t let your trolling bobbin-floater sink into the water; when the bubbles cease….you’re fini.
Instructions on how to disconnect your satellite dish and not board planes are on the internet. Then, disconnect the internet and 1400 years of history can come alive.
Try using toilet paper instead of a pebble sometime before you call other filthy.
I call my solution for Islam the “Y” solution. That is for the Y chromosome. Mumps makes young boys sterile. We (the west) need to weaponize mumps so that it destroys the “Y” chromosome. Then we send in drones to spray the Umma. After a few decades of only girl babies, Islam is finished. No genocide, nobody killed, just no baby boys are born.
Allahu akbar, does NOT mean “God is great.” In Arabic, “God” = Allah and “great” = kabeer.
Allahu means “My/Our God” and akbar means “greater.”
Allahu akbar, therefore, means “My/Our God is greater [than yours].”
When a Mohammedan shouts this, he is being very clear about his motive: jihad, the holy struggle to defend Islam by killing infidels. So apart from confirming that any Terrorist Act or any other situation where this is shouted was Mohammedan in nature it also exposes the reality of Islam because if THEIR god is greatest then there must be perforce other ‘lesser’ Gods.
Which reveals Islams Polytheistic roots it also reveals the confrontational and supremacist nature of Islam. Needless to say the Mohammedans are very happy that the moronic moonbats and the Islamophile, antisemitic Lame Stream EneMedia continue to mistranslate it as “God is Great” as this also gives them the opportunity to say that their God allah is the same as your God which is patently and clearly insane.
The Mohammedan God is an evil , self contradictory, illogical, violent,misogynistic, vengeful , antisemitic, Arab supremacist God (its all in the Koran) totally unlike the Christian and Jewish God.
Ron Paul Just Won The Iowa Caucuses Grace Wyler | Jun. 16, 2012
http://www.businessinsider.com/ron-paul-wins-iowa-caucuses-2012-6
“Liberty, when it begins to take root, is a plant of rapid growth.”
George Washington
#11.,
You write in very good English for a moon god worshiper.
Yes, yes I know, the god is greatest!
Obama has done everything he can to put Islamic scum in power and will do his best here also.
I just wonder how the naive , gullible, stupid Western Democracy leaders , Left Wing moonbats and the Lame Stream EneMedia feel now as the Muslim Brotherhood takes over and sets about turning Egypt in to an Islamic fundamental state as they most certainly will. A situation that awaits ALL the so called ‘Arab Spring’ countries especially SYRIA.
“Democracy – Muslims don’t want and dont understand no stinkin’ Democracy.”
The US should just mind its own business. Meddling in the Middle East is like poking a hornet’s nest with a stick.
We have huge reserves of fossil fuel here at home, why don’t we use them? Abolish the EPA and drill.
According to the Muslim Brotherhood, Mohammed Morsi won the second round of the presidential election with 52% of the vote – this is interesting because in the parliamentary election, the Islamists took a combined 72% of the vote. Since then, their support has markedly declined.
This result, if borne out, makes it easier for the Egyptian army not to allow Morsi to assume office since the Islamists are now markedly weaker than they were in 2011. If he is the winner, will the Egyptian military honor the election results or a find a way to cancel them?
Stay tuned.
I don’t think you have to worry about Egyptians marching anywhere. Besides, aren’t these threats why Israel has access to nuclear weapons?
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