Good analysis as always!
I would add that Biden’s overt hostility on stage was a prelude to what we’re going to see from Obama in the next debate.
Romney better be prepared for an angrier, even-less-rational adversary come Tuesday.
I certainly hope Obama comes out swinging. He can have all of his base. Give us the independents who think Biden behaved like a bully with some kind of psychological disorder.
the lazy radical in chief may very well project his inner Mr. Hyde but he won’t have the command of facts and figures like Biden did to bolster his blustery performance. Mitt will handle him with aplumb and professionalism, like the first round. Funny how the liberals and left saw Mitt’s performance as too aggresive and Obama’s as too passive, so they fill heartened by Biden’s unleashed rudeness. If Obama tries the same tatic he going to show the voters just how petualant and petty a man he truely is.
…the lazy radical in chief… won’t have the command of facts and figures like Biden did…
Facts and figures run for the hills when Commander Biden takes the field.
[Insert map scene from Downfall here.]
If Obama tries to go all thuggish on Tuesday, Romney should turn to him and say, “c’mon Barry I saw you riding the bike in the mom jeans, wannabe”
Andrew I love your honesty even though it was hard to admit the truth in this instance. But I don’t see how Ryan could have done much better. I don’t see how he was able to keep his composure or even his train of thought with all of Joe’s bullishness and interruptions. Who, except possibly Romney, could have done a better job? Biden interrupted him 82 times and the moderator interrupted him over 30 times and kept changing the subject in the middle of Ryan making his points. I think he did remarkably well under the circumstances.
Romney was assertive with Obama but was never as contemptuous or belittling as Biden was with Ryan. Biden’s performance was shameful but, unfortunately, Democrats have no shame.
Rhonda, the “Left” has only the most tenuous relationship with reality. I laid out their theories of truthfulness here: http://clarespark.com/2012/10/14/reality-and-the-left/. It is time to resuscitate Orwell’s 1984 and expose the masters of Doublethink.
The difference is that you have to be able to play baseball well and consistently to get to the Majors and stay there.
For far too many “professional politicians,” you just need to be the candidate for a particular party in a particular district or state. Most elections in this country are over once the primary is done.
After that, the incumbent usually stays there. They get voted in out of habit and familiarity, and the power of an incumbent to pass out the goodies.
Imagine a baseball league where players were chosen by fan votes. Better, imagine a league where players were chosen by the votes of a large number of people who don’t even watch baseball.
“Romney better be prepared for an angrier, even-less-rational adversary come Tuesday.”
When your enemy is angry, irritate him.
From all appearances, Mitt seems to be doing just that today!
Ahhh, just what we want to see, another angry black man. If he shows up like the Reverend Wright he will turn off the voters en mass.
Yes, I hope el presidente’ takes copious notes from Bite-me, thinking that his tactics were successful. It’s bad enough when VP does it but when the pResident does it, it will be buffoonery on a whole new level.
But, as has been said, this is who they are. This is their demeanor, this is their personality. Superior, aloof, condescending, patronizing. Add to that, uncooperative, annoying and demagogues.
Given last night’s display of sheer arrogance, I have to think that Tuesday will be an even greater display of same because this is what they think “appearing strong” means. It has to do with how a socialist is (mis)wired mentally.
But as to the original subject: I think the author gives Biden way too much credit. I’m not sure how you mean that on a better day, Biden could “make mincemeat of” Ryan. If you mean he could do it by lying or explaining things to his own satisfaction, then I guess you’d be right. But that implies that the only judge is the collective moronic masses who cannot or will not think. On facts alone, Ryan will destroy any “argument” Bite-me makes. Last night offered opportunities for Ryan to do that and he took advantage of some of them but I think he was perfectly happy to watch Joe the Socialist destroy himself with his middle-school behavior.
Not to contradict myself but it may not be that Ryan won so much as that Biden lost by being a tool. But he can’t help it. He’s hopelessly dysfunctional and broken. That’s why he’s in government. No marketable skills, no ability to see beyond the utopian BS that has been fed to him and that he has consumed with abundance for decades. He is what he eats.
“But I don’t see how Ryan could have done much better. ”
How about: “Mr. Biden, no matter how condescending, dismissive and rude you are, it will not hide the reality from the American people that you still have a record of economic and foreign policy failure that will haunt our country after you are gone.” I thnk Ryan’s people did not prepare him for the debate qua confrontation.
That would have been a good answer but toward the end of the debate Ryan did try to confront Biden but Biden just talked over him louder than before causing both of them to talk at the same time and you couldn’t hear a word either one of them were saying.
The moderator should have controlled the time for each candidate much better and not allowed them to talk during the other one’s time to talk.
I was in the car and started listening at about the 15 minute mark. After about 30 minutes, I gave up because I thought Biden was winning easily. He seemed to dominate Ryan, and Ryan’s voice is not commanding at all. My reaction didn’t have anything to do with the philosophies or policy discusions; only the presentation. So I was pleasantly surprised to learn later that Biden had negated his advantage with the overt adolescent mannerisms. Ryan caught a break. If Biden had simply said the same words but without the clown moves, then the debate would have swung strongly to Biden.
Remember, 80% of the country really isn’t atuned to policy. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been in discussions with people who are really conservative but have been fooled by a tricked-up liberal politician hiding like a wolf in conservative clothing.
Biden’s problem is classic, and similar to obama’s. He is immensely impressed with himself and is unable to recognize the point where he turns people off. And Slo Joe doesn’t have the advantage of affirmative action to rescue him when his arrogance takes over.
In 1960 people who heard the (1st) Kennedy-Nixon Debate on radio gave it to Nixon going away. But he lost the debate, and the election, to the TV audience. RMN never recovered from being ‘seen’ as a shifty, nervous, sweaty, weasel by the viewers. And yes there were 3 total debates but after the first, the electorate had made up it’s mind and ignored the remaining two.
Ryan could have done much better by just standing up for himself. He should have told the moderator and Biden to not interrupt him. He should have called upon the dignity of the VP office.
“Mr. Vice-President, you occupy the office of the Vice-President of the US. We are all expected to give your office a certain degree of respect. That expectation goes double for you. You are expected to behave in a manner commensurate with the dignity of your office. Once you achieve your station, or the station of the Presidency, you may no longer act like just any other politician. You have the dignity of your office to maintain.”
A gentle rebuke like this would stick in the minds of the voters, and it would torpedo all Biden’s bullying, because, the more he does it, the more people will remember what you said.
People who are articulate in expressing the social customs and taboos are very powerful when offering such gentle rebukes.
And no, Biden would not have won on points. He was incorrect on any number of things. Ryan did not call him on many, but much of that was, because, between the moderator and Biden, he could not get a word in edgewise.
Laying there and taking is has NOT been a winning strategy for Republicans, and never will be.
I read it quite differently. At one point early in the debate, Ryan very tactfully said:
“Mr. Vice President, I know you’re under a lot of duress to make up for lost ground, but I think people would be better served if we don’t keep interrupting each other.”
When Biden kept interrupting, my observation was that Ryan made the tactical decision not to wallow in the mud with the pig, and to let Biden lose the debate – in the eyes of the important segment of the audience – due to his demeanor.
both biden and the moderator invaded ryan’s space, he needs to learn to put them at a distance. mr vice president i came here to debate you and that includes your allowing me to finish my thoughts without your rude interruptions and madame moderator please do your job.
The way I see it, Biden won the debate, and Ryan won the post-debate.
The entire night was Biden exaggerating, Ryan clairif- BIDEN INTERRUPTING AND CALLING RYAN A LIAR. Who won the debate then comes down to who was telling the truth each time. If Biden was telling the truth, then he’s a no-nonsense guy against some punk kid. If he’s lying, then hes a childish, petulant bastard and Ryan is more respectful than he should be.
Democrats think Biden won because they believe him, and Republicans believe Ryan won, because they believe him (and of course, he isn’t shouting out bullshit”. Independents are likely to believe Biden based on not knowing the facts, and his force of character: “Why would he lie so outright like that? He must be telling the truth.” And of course, he hurt himself on manners and body language. So Biden likely won slightly among independents, which is all that matters right now.
Biden won the debate. But every lie, falsehood, demagogue-ic, and fear-mongering is going to get taken to task over the next few days. Biden gave Romney/Ryan all the sound bites they could ever want for the rest of the election.
-Denial of Libya knowledge.
-Assertion of Medicare, prices, efforts, etc.
-Obama’s foriegn policy record
-Cause of the economy
-Middle class buried over last 4 years
And every campaign add ending with Biden’s quote: “I always mean what I say..”
And, if the adds do a side by side comparison, then the ending quote is: “I always mean what I say, as so does Mitt Romney.”
So, as I said. Biden likely won the debate, mitigated by his demeanor. And Ryan wins the post-debate on substance. He can come in a week later and say: “Biden lied at every turn. Here is the proof. And notice that I was reserved and respectful… even a touch presidential… when he was cavorting lies in the guise of no-nonsense.”
As far as comments on the actual debate, it amazes me how much Joe Biden thinks he can demonize Romney/Ryan just for supposed consequences of ideas, and get a pass on the real consequences of his [Obama's] actions Some proverb about glass houses and ultra-sonic screaming comes to mind.
For a Presidential team whose ideas have failed the last 4 years… you think he’d be open to some new ones.
Ooo! Another golden campaign ad. Lead up to with lots of interrupting. This is just too good.
I thought Ryan looked, well, presidential, while Biden looked unhinged. Biden really was beginning to scare me. At one moment, he was all laughs and smiles, and at the very next moment he was deadly serious and talking in a low, gravelly, voice like some washed-up boxer from the movie “Body and Soul.” I was wondering if all Americans were thinking the same thing as I was last night. Are Americans saying, “This Biden guy is really one heartbeat away from the presidency?” You’re kidding me, right?” Well, on November 6 we will have a chance to change that and let the real grownup in the room, Paul Ryan, have a new job as vice president.
I was waiting for Biden to say, “Want to see a trick with a pencil”?
Biden made what is know in tennis as an unforced error. Substantively it was a draw, except for Jerk Joe’s doubling down on the Libya Lie. Which now has to be investigated by the MSM. But who’s tax plan is better or who saves Medicare, that’s not going to win anyone over. By maintaining his composure and remaining calm, Paul Ryan looked Presidential while Joe looked childish.
I thought the debate was a tie. But Biden did scare the hell out of me! What if your Obamacare adviser acted like that while you were seeking medical aid? Your DMV clerk or your family doctor?
While Biden’s idiotic facial expressions did him no good, his incessant interruptions were quite effective. They distracted Ryan somewhat, and they distracted the viewer from following Ryan’s arguments. I expect Obama to employ the same strategy. Romney will have to find a way to back Obama off without sounding whiny.
So basically you are saying, “The only way for the Dem’s to score any points is to cheat”. Makes me have respect for the regime in power today.
I suspect that the Romney/Ryan long game is to save the truly heavy-hitting bombshells for the last debate–where they cannot be easily refuted under televised scrutiny. In the meantime, they allow Joe and/or Obama to score some cheap “giveaway” points, i.e. those not worth getting into the policy weeds over.
As for Ryan’s demeanor last night, I believe he is of the school (or was coached) that believes if one’s adversary is busy destroying himself you stand back and allow it to happen. Biden obviously was ordered to be an attack dog (either that or he’s simply unhinged) in order to resuscitate a flailing Obama candidacy. In the process, Biden seemingly managed to offend and push vast numbers of independent women into the Romney camp, this by virtue of his outlandish, rude and offensive behavior.
The result? Despite Ryan’s mild demeanor, he scored a significant demographic victory, he kept the Romney campaign’s ammo dry (available for later use), and simultaneously enabled the VP to reveal himself and/or the larger campaign as that of a crude, angry, and patrician cabal of incompetents.
I saw this in a comment earlier today and smiled.
“When a wise person debates with a fool, the fool rages and laughs, and there is no peace and quiet.” Proverbs 29:9
A genuine classic.
Thanks for that. I think I’ll put it on the blog!
I think we should all take Winston Wolfe’s advice.
“…so, please….pretty please. Clean the f-ing car!”
Or did you mean something else?
“Let’s not start s-king each other’s d–ks quite yet.”
Hear a lot of ‘Vice-Presidential debates are not a game changer but may influence the ‘undecided’.
OK, I am totally biased against Obama/Democrats/Liberals/Progressives/Socialists/Communists
Having said that, I find the ‘undecided’ vote incomprehensible.
The choice is stark: Freedom vs. subjugation.
At this point in time what’s with the ‘valley of indecision’ voters?
WHAT are they looking for?
I’d like to see a real debate with real rules between the two – if Biden was prevented from blowing his big mouth off during Ryan’s time, and they could only use provable facts, Ryan would have beaten the Sandwich Man like a red-headed step-child.
bingo now you have why biden behaved the way he did. he is lost and has no answers enter crazy joe. watch this and not that!
– with a pig, only gets you as muddy as it.
Obama has only one hope left, he will have to win the remaing 2 debates, so he will go all out this time. I hope Romney is as prepared as he was last time. If Obama wins the next one, the race will be close again. If Romney wins, Obama is toast.
Ryan had two choices.
(1) Respond in kind. (In which case he would have alienated a lot of viewers over age 50. We can’t stand seeing people chronologically our age –even disruptive, deliberately rude jackasses like Biden–treated disrespectfully by those who are likely to outlive them.)
(2) Let Biden have enough rope to hang himself by letting him run off at the mouth and by responding to his jerk behavior with businesslike civility.
I think Ryan was wise to choose (2). Biden came across as bullying, dishonest and not too bright.
For some reason the public sees getting angry as a weakness even if the circumstance justifies it. I guess we are all supposed to be a bunch of milquetoast weenies. As this applies to the debate, maybe the Obama camp was hoping to rile Ryan and come up with a gotcha moment when he says something intemperate.
A weak performance by Ryan hurts the ticket almost not at all. A gotcha moment could turn deadly. Unless we are to suppose that Ryan is an above average debater who can take harassment well, perhaps it is just as well he did not engage Biden. No drama, nothing for the press to talk about is good enough.
“….maybe the Obama camp was hoping to rile Ryan and come up with a gotcha moment when he says something intemperate.”
Oh God yes. I think what–among other things–they were hoping to be able to say was that Ryan disrespectfully didn’t let the moderator (A WOMAN IN LATE MIDDLE AGE ) handle Biden’s interruptions , or that Ryan insulted her by implying she wasn’t doing her job competently or fairly.
Ryan left his ego at home and went there to do what was best for all of us. And I think letting Biden relax , and say plenty of major things that don’t check out, may have been the better strategy in this situation, even for a good debater.
Today I thought Biden’s Whoppers, by Scott Johnson, made for interesting reading. Also good is The Benghazi Scandal by Stephen F. Hayes.
Another good article : Denying the Libya Scandal, by Andrew C. McCarthy. You’re shocked when you compare these articles to what Biden was willing to say. He certainly has to be confident average people are too stupid and irresponsible to check anything.
What a frightening thought: That Barack Obama is less in command of the facts than Joe Biden. If I ponder that very long I expect to have nightmares!
The only argument Biden made that made any sense to me was when e said what by setting a firm date for withdrawal from Afghanistan it forces the afghan government to step up instead of letting to US do all their dirty work for them. Too bad they don’t realize the same problem with unending welfare here at home.
The only big mistake that Ryan made was not responding to the GM bailout issue. He should have defended Romney’s “let them go bankrupt” position. i.e. If the law was followed when GM went bankrupt, the retired people who depended on the bond income would not have been given the shaft and GM would have emerged from bankruptcy in better shape than it is today; Obama simply violated the bankruptcy laws.
What’s good to read on the GM bailout issue ?
By the way, everyone should definitely read : The Mystery of Benghazi, by Ross Douthat. I think I saw it on Hot Air . It’s short.
Klein mentions how much Obama truly hates Romney. It was glaringly evident in his first disastrous encounter. He could not even look at him. Of course we know that people hate only what they cannot understand and hence what they fear. As Obama does not understand the economy or the American system, he does not understand the self-made man or even the healthy confident man. His loathing hides his fear. If Obama actually looks at Romney and goes into attack dog mode as his chumps are advising him to, I think it may turn out even worse than his sullen little boy performance. He may turn into worse of a raving, repulsive moonbat than Biden was.
I wish I could think so, B MOON, since those would be his true colors shining through. ( Say, did you watch that video of Obama’s speech at Hampton University on June 5, 2007 ? In his October 11th, 2012 column , the one entitled “Phony in Chief”, Thomas Sowell describes this video. He proves, with dates , Obama knowingly lied to his predominantly black audience about how the amount of disaster relief that went to hurricane Katrina compared with the amount that went to other emergencies. There is no doubt the purpose and effect of the lie was to foment anger and distrust. The video, and Sowell’s evidence, is all you need to see Obama is a demagogue.) But no. Obama will have his veneer in place come Tuesday.
Even if you aren’t sure it helps, it can’t hurt to pray for Romney.
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